User1: I think I would focus more on the actual programs, see what you can do with them, and then add a guide that explains how to use them
User2: ailo, also keep in mind that these "options" to be chosen that install apps based on tasks would be loosely based on the established work flows
User1: For a beginner, the program should have functionality. One program per function is enough.
User2: but more than one applications is probably required to accomplish a particular task
User2: and many, many permutations of applications selections could be made to support that task
User1: It depends on what you mean by a task. To create a song, all you need is qtractor and some plugins and instuments
User2: but for a beginner, if we have established a best practices work flow and have an option to install applications based on that work flow
User2: ailo, right!
User2: if we decide that is what we would to for beginners to use, that could be what is installed when they choose "record a song with my guitar"
User1: On the music side, I think I'm pretty well covered in experience about different software an d functionality. There's not that many different cases for beginners
User1: For the rock enthusiast, Qtractor, I'd say. Simple, but includes everything you need
User2: that's a good choice probably, i'm still getting the feel for qtractor but i like it enough for what i've experienced
User2: it certainly offers the inclusion of synths, which is quite handy for the one-man-band bedroom guitarist :)
User1: For the electro enthusiast, a step sequencer (I never use them, so I don't know if theres a good one for Linux)
User1: I think those two cover most needs musically. Just need plugins and samplers
User1: Audacity is a great tool, but most people never need it for anything
User2: but there is also video editing and graphics, or even podcasting, live performance, and others we might support
User2: but i really wanted input on just the idea of using -controls to help isntall applications based on a simplified base install
User2: and let the experienced users install their applications based on their own desires/needs/wants/familiarities
User1: For video editing, I have no idea. For graphics, I know Gimp and Incscape are fantastic
 * ScottL thinks that blender rocks for video editing
User1: User2 I don't think it needs to be very hard. The software is not that advanced yet, anyway, at least on the music side, so you can only do so much. What you need is a guide, how to get going. Pick out the programs that cover all needs for a new user, and work on a guide on how to use them
User1: The main two things for a rock enthusiast, beside the sequencer is of course a drum machine, and a virtual amp
User2: ailo, but if ubuntu studio started with a very basic installation, how would a new user install the software?
User1: Ubuntu Software Center, I guess should be used by the beginner. I've never used it :)
User1: If UbuntuStudio would put the focus on a  minimal selection of programs for the base install, then the rest of the programs could be in a database. That database could be on the web or in -controls, or both
User2: ailo, okay, then we are aligned then apparently
User1: A tagged database, where you can search for functionality: sequencer, audio, plugin, sampler, instrument
User2: i just didn't want to suggest that we have a base install, without audio applications say, and expect the inexperienced user to figure out which applications would best suit his/her needs
User2: and installed them
User2: s/installed/install
User1: No, I think some programs should definitely be installed.
User1: In a base install
User1: Just like Ubuntu has one office suit, one web browser, UbuntuStudio could have one sequencer, and one audio editor, and so on
User1: I know there's a lot of people who like Rezound, for example, but who needs it if you're already using Audacity?
User1: User2 In any case, I think the logic way to move forward with abstracting work flows is to first write things down. Compile it in writing. Then, see how you can create automated work flows with software.
User3: We started that effort last cycle, and it's still underway.
User3: The new task model is based, in large part, on the output so far.
User3: What it really needs is more fleshing out of the use cases: to improve their testability for milestone verification, and their utility for new folk.
User2: ailo, i have no desire to create "automated" music, if i understand you correctly
User2: i only want to automate the installation process or help the user to setup the computer/installation
User1: User2 Why not just focus on a set of programs, one for each function, and give the user a guide on how to use them. A basic guide.
User1: When explaining for instance how to use Qtractor, you first define what is is, what is used for, and show a list of all programs in the repo that have similar functionality. Thereafter, proceed with how to use that one program.
User3: How isn't this what is being done?
User1: I'm just thinking there's no need for many audio tasksels. Just one.
User3: We intentionally moved away from that, because people were complaining it was too complicated.
User3: Before, every type of audio package was installed, which meant that if someone wanted to do something, they were confronted with a huge selection of things, rather than being able to just select the stuff they really want.
User2: ailo, and too many applications were being installed
User2: heh, persia beat me to it :P
User1: I agree. Too many
User3: Having lots more tasks is the price we pay in order to decrease the number of installed applications.
User3: Because for any given class of use cases (e.g. recording), there's a number of applications that are useful along the way.
User2: but that is translated into more selection during installation
User1: Why not just have a basic tasksel and a install them all?
User1: Or just the basic one
User3: What is basic?  What does that allow you to do?
User1: By basic, I mean, one program for each function.
User3: We have that.  Which function is overloaded?
User3: Of course, some applications claim to do many things, but that aside.
User1: Yea, I don't know. It still feels a little messy somehow. :)
User3: Ideas for cleaning it up are welcome :)
User3: but stuffing it all back in the box is known to be not the ideal solution.
User1: I think I would want it to be as minimalistic as possible. Adding as few programs as possible. And the most simple of all, should be the documentation. Perhaps it is the menu that bothers me
User3: What about the menu?
User3: Documentation always needs help.
User1: Overdoing with a lot of categories in the menu is probably not so nice either :/.
User1: Butt, an easy guide for beginners. Maybe an app, like Ubuntu's help app?
User3: Any ideas how to present it so that it works nicely for both folks with only a few applications installed and folks with lots of applications installed?
User3: We have that: needs folks to write help pages.
User1: Where is it? Is it in the repo?
User3: Yeah.  package name is "yelp".
User3: Doesn't have much content related to the Ubuntu Studio apps though.
User1: I think it would be great to have a guide only for multimedia. The things that deserve most attention are those that are typically Linux specific. Jack for isntance
User3: Are you up for writing it?
User1: I guess so
User3: Cool!
User1: But where to put it? On the web?
User3: I'd recommend chatting with the folk in #ubuntu-doc to get more details about formats and ways to distribute material.
User3: They have a number of well-established workflows for dealing with the content.
User3: Just be careful: they always want more people to document the stuff already on their lists, but they will take documentation for other stuff, if you're clear that is what you are writing.
User1: Ok, so the documentation ends up on Ubuntu's pages, or wherever, nicely done. How to instruct the user about it? Support link on the Ubuntustudio home page? I wouldn't mind adding a notify app after installing some Ubuntustudio stuff.
User1: Or, at least a link on the desktop
User3: We could just install yelp, and add it to the taskbar by default.
User3: Same as Ubuntu Desktop does.
User3: Or did, I suppose, as they are moving away from classic.
User1: I would prefer multimedia specific over yelp, which I see as a general Desktop help. I think there's already vast amounts of documentation and Videos about all kinds of things, just spread out. Having a basic guide, with additional links. Something centralized
User1: I guess a wiki section should do
User1: And something that makes the user aware of it's existence
User3: Why isn't yelp good for this?  It can handle vast amounts of documentation, and embed graphics and videos.
User3: Principle of least surprise encourages us to put all such documentation in the same place, whether it be for the desktop, for the audio applications, or whatever.
User3: to be clear: I'm not opposed to having it somewhere else, I just think it needs a really good reason.
User1: I think for reference, Yelp is good. But, for a specific guide, where you focus on a select group of software, maybe it's better with a dedicated guide.
User3: I'm confused.  I agree that separate content is useful.  I'm not sure why the content shouldn't be delivered using the existing maintained software.  Seems like a lot of extra work to maintain extra software just to deliver content.
User1: I didn't know Yelp had pages about US, so that is why I mentioned the idea of an app. Just looking through the community wiki pages on Ubuntustudio
User3: I don't think it does today.
User3: But the key thing is that yelp is documentation viewing application: any package can provide content that yelp will display.
User3: The content just has to be in yelp format.
User3: The documentation team has a format and some tools that let them convert their working format into moinmoin and yelp automatically, so they write once and deploy to both help.ubuntu.com and yelp.
User3: I suspect that by talking to them, you can get information about this format and the conversion tools.
User3: And then you can use this format to deploy your content in both places.
User3: So that your documentation is seamlessly integrated with the rest of the environment.
User3: (and you don't have to maintain any code: just the content, using the ubuntu-doc infrastructure, and yelp)
User1: Sounds like a deal
User3: Ah, we were both confused.  The backlog all makes more sense now :)
User2: yes, i see that ailo and i had different definitions of "basic install" :P
User1: I think what ScottL is after and what I agree on is to provide some way for the user to easily get into using the programs. I guess I'm more inclined on doing that through documentation, and focusing on just a few programs.
User3: I think there's room for both approaches.
User3: Use ScottL's vision to ensure that the user can install an appropriate suite of software without feeling like they have too many applications.
User3: use ailo's vision to ensure that the user has effective documentation on how to use the tools available for each workflow.
User3: In the case of disagreement about which applications are useful for a workflow, go back to reviewing the workflow documentation and test cases, and discuss more widely.
User1: Yes. A minimal install, that still covers all the basic uses
User3: "basic" is still hard to define :)
User1: Or, should I say "standard". There are some uses that are linux specific too.
User3: "standard" is just as hard.
User3: Is recording a live instrument a standard case?
User3: Is creating a patchset out of found audio a standard case?
User3: Is MIDI sequencing a standard case?
User3: Is tracking a standard case?
User3: (and that's just within audio stuff)
User1: I think standard is what most users do, and new users especially. For audio, I'd say, two types of daws, an audio editor, and the use of plugins (fx and instruments)
User1: Two types of daws: cubase / fruity loops
User1: At least, that is how I would start when writing a guide on how to make music on UbuntuStudio
User3: Those seem reasonable places to start.
User3: It may make sense to try to find some commonality between the workflows defined and the areas you seek to document.
User3: Just to make sure there is some alignment in terms of package selection to achieve the task, etc.
User1: For linux specific stuff, the concept of jack and the ability to connect programs together. Once knowing that, the user will find it's own ways
User1: At least the software used in the core of the guide could be installed by default
User2: coming to grips with the concept of jack is a huge hurdle for users, and probably one of the first they encounter
User2: ailo, if you would like to collaborate on the documentation i would love to be a part of it
User1: User2 Sure. For now, I'm just thinking about where to start. I'll be focusing only on Audio to begin with. I'm thinking of a quick start section. Start jack, start a program, get sound out.
User1: And then move onto work flows. Record a song. Make an electronic piece. Things like that.
User2: ailo, you might also look at this:  http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora_Draft_Documentation/0.1/html/Musicians_Guide/index.html
User2: it's kinda light on specifics but it has a good structure though
User3: scott-upstairs, I'm not sure it's better, but it's alternate.  There's a adobe-flashplayer package in the Canonical partner repo.
User3: The one in ubuntu-restricted-extras just downloads the one in canonical partner, unpacks it, and installs it as a non-package.
User2: okay, before i actually go to bed i checked mail, got a comment on my blog suggesting use of this theme:
User2: http://ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Ambiance+dark?content=132875
User2: looks pretty good actually
User2: especially the last image
User4: User3 Merely because I never see a community kernel pushed into archives *after* Alpha3 (only Canonical sponsored kernels receive that honour). And at the moment 1) documentation isn't still produced 2) No one of the UBK have reviewed -lowlatency kernel despite it is the first appears on kernel.ubuntu.com/git 3) Almost all UKT members thinks that -lowlatency is a useless kernel. So you can understand whi I don't think that -lowlatency
User1: User2 User8 The scetch is nice, but I don't see any point in changing rt settings other than adding/removing /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf. I would even put that and adding user to audio group into a single toggle, called "enable realtime for this user" or something, and maybe add info somewhere as to what it does.
User1: User8 User2 I would also prefer to have the checks in one window, 1. check if user has realtime (both audio.conf and audio group), 2. check for kernel 3. check extras. At this poing only No1 is absolutely needed.
User2: ailo, good points
User1: User2 User8 These may be a little ugly, but I was trying to put together the shape of it functionality-wise http://imagebin.org/137158
User1: http://imagebin.org/137159
User1: http://imagebin.org/137160
User1: I don't know if it's possible to decide which "type" of kernel should be booted by default (going by the names -generic / -lowlatency / -realtime. All I know is, you can decide which exact kernel should be booted by default.
User1: User2 User8 Here's one with sections but no tabs http://imagebin.org/137168
User1: Hey, falktx. What do you think? http://imagebin.org/137168
 * abogani has just updated -lowlatency kernel...
User5: User1 honestly, looks kinda primitive, but if it works...
User5: hey abogani
User4: User5 Hi!
User5: User4 is  it possible to update the lucid realtime kernel to the latest patchset ?
User1: User5 Just an idea of the functions and categories of the -controls. What are you missing there?
User5: User4 btw, I used your old realtime-31 for the new ppas
User5: User4 I mean, update the lucid kernel is your ppa, is it possible?
User5: User1 hm, the *_PATH for plugins?
User5: User1 I started making my own plugin host now, so I havent dealed with the my US-controls new replacement thing
User5: User1 but ScottL suggested to have a patchbay inside the controls app, what do  you think?
User1: User5 You mean *_PATH for VST plugins?
User5: User1 LADSPA_PATH, DSSI_PATH, etc
User6: Why would you want to set up  a path for plugins?
User1: User5 I wouldn't mind the controls to have all functions, but for Natty, at least get the elementary stuff in. I use only one toggle for RT privilegue, for instance, which makes sure audio.conf exists and adds chosen user to Audio Group.
User6: Rt privileges
User6: ;)
User5: User6 user may download plugins and put them in a folder
 * ailo needs to learn how to spell
User6: User5 that's where PPA's come in handy ;)
User5: User1 i agree, making it simple also means it's released/done faster
User6: And any user that knows how to download plug-ins also knows where to put them
User5: User6 the main reason for this is that some apps dont support recursive search of plugins
User5: User6 i have some VST organized by maker (in folders), and I need to set VST_PATH to all dirs to make them work
User6: What kind of plug-ins are we talking about then?
User5: User6 i would now except users to copy all Windows VSTs to /usr/lib/vst
User5: also, some vsts install under wine program-files...
User6: So we're talking mainly VST's here
User5: yep, kinda
User5: User6 maybe an user has it's own plugin pack in ~/plugins... <- this may happen
User6: To be honest, I don't think an open source distro shouldn't bother too much with pulling in even more closed source binary blobs
User6: But that's just my 2Â¢
User6: And I'm seeing this too much from my own perspective as I don't use any VST's myself
User5: User6 you have no idea how many mails I got about something like "I do I make this Windows app work?"
User4: User5 Sorry I don't understand. In my ppa last rt kernel available is .33-rt29
User5: vsts are the bridge to the people coming from windows
User6: And what do you send them back? http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm ?
User5: User4 yes, the rt patchset rt30 is available
User5: User6 haha
User5: User6 still,  I need to stuff to fill the app with
User6: You need stuff to fill the app with?
User5: User6 for me, having extra configuration is good, as the user can simply ignore it if doesnt need it
User5: User6 i mean, configuration dialogs
 * falktx doesnt have the screenshot link
User6: http://imagebin.org/137168
User6: Then set things up like permissions for hardware timers, rtirq, swappiness, disabling xrun prone services etc.
User5: User6 i mean my tool...
User6: ah :)
User5: User6 i want to fill it with lots of configuration stuff
User5: (assuming they are not completely useless)
User6: It would be really cool if someone could make the realtimequickconfigscan tool into something that could actually set up things for you
User5: User6 that's my plan
User6: Awesome!
User5: User6 currently I'm trying to make my own audio plugin host
User5: User6 i got the idea of making the GUI in python, but using C code as backend
User6: Yeah, another awesome thing
User5: User6 this way it can host 32bit, 64bit and windows plugins at the same time!
User6: Which frameworks will it support?
User5: User6 my plan is to do it in full jack audio+midi, with all standards available
User5: User6 hehe, I want to be able to use LMMS synths too
User6: standards available, so DSSI, LADSPA, LV2 and LinuxVST?
User5: User6 yes
User6: And WIndows VST's?
User5: User6 yes
User5: User6 also windows ladspa, if the user wants
User6: So you want to create a working Jost with LV2 support
User5: User6 ahah, yes
User6: Now that would be KX!
User6: As in kick axe
User5: User6 i already have the patchbay, I just need the audio-host
User6: Oh yeah, the LMMS synths are actually quite nice
User5: User6 currently it checks properly for ladspa and dssi and adds them to the menu, but the plugins wont work
User5: yep
User5: User6 but, as you can imagine, this will take a while
User5: I want to get ladspa working first, then I'll move to dssi
User6: Yeah, you're reaching a point where you will have to set priorities
User5: User6 btw, take a look:
User5: http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1184/scr001.jpg
User5: http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7760/scr002y.jpg
User5: http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/1218/scr003.jpg
User5: (just posted on the forums ^)
 * falktx is proud
User5: btw, it seems that VST only works with C++, which sucks
User5: the keyboard is from FL Studio (thus non-free), so I have to find a replacement... :(
User1: User5 The keys have wrong proportions on that too. The reason is because the black keys are all centered exactly between the white keys, which they aren't on a real keyboard.
User5: User1 i never played a piano/midi-keyboard, so i didnt know
User1: User5 The virtual keyboard that is included in the Ubuntu Repo has the right proportions
User5: is there any place to find audio knobs/sliders artwork ?
User5: User1 vmpk?
User5: or vkeybd?
User1: vkeybd, at least. Not good looking, but correct
User1: Perhaps the black keys are just a little too wide.
User6: Looks good falktx
User5: User1 hehe, tell that to the company who mades them
User5: User1 i think LMMS has some similar keys...
User5: User6 thanks, i'm really trying to make good-looking apps
 * falktx needs to learn CSS
User6: CSS is quite simple.
User6: Well simple
User5: User6 someday, I want to be able to this things like this - http://www.cusisdesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/lmms.jpg
User5: I know how to code stuff, I just need to know how to design them properly
User6: Ah oh yeah, the Cusis stuff
User6: Looks good
User5: we need someone with good design skills...
User3: abogani, To be clear: if you say you think it's ready, I'll upload it that day.  Just tell me when.  Today works for me, or tomorrow, or whenever.
User7: so much work in the scroll back :)
User7: yeah, a proper meeting
User7: scott-work: im thinking just monthly
User7: just set one up
User7: im still not finding a better solution for posting meeting times for different time zones
User3: UTC
User7: i did that twice
User7: with varying results
User7: well, it worked OK once
User3: It's the best we have.  Not ideal, but...
User7: and the 2nd time, no body came
User7: User3 i was thinking the fridge
User7: im not totally sure what that looks like
User7: anyways, something regular will help
User7: "same time next month"
User7: User3 i think weekly would be overkill for us
User7: agreed?
User3: Monthly to start sounds good to me.
User3: But historically a good time for everyone else has been bad for me, so my opinion should carry very little weight in this.
User7: well, we wont be able to please everyone
User7: and theres no reason why you cant call a special meeting time if necessary persia
User7: you or someone else that constantly has a conflict with the chosen time
User3: I'm not worried about missing meetings.
User3: I'll check the outcome, and complain if there's something that strikes me as very wrong.
User3: I'll even try to check the agenda and complain in advance :)
User7: hehe ;)
User7: User6 can you remember what time of week we talked about
User7: that you would be available
User6: AH yes
User7: im thinking a sunday
User7: is that where we landed?
User6: I thought it was either saturday or sunday
User7: some sunday
User7: either 10am for you or me
User6: And then in the afternoon
User7: i think
User6: oh yeah 10am
User6: That was it
User6: 10am is fine
User7: User6 what time is it there?
User7: now?
User6: 5pm
User7: OK
User7: let me acutally put something on my calendar this time
User7: hmmm
User6: :)
User7: maybe it was the other way
User7: your 6 hours a head of me
User7: its 11am here
User7: SO that would be *early
User7: 10am your time
User7: how late int he afternoon is OK ?
User6: As long as it's not in the evening here I'm ok
User7: lets say 10am my time
User7: would be 4pm for you right?
User6: I'm always rehearsing on sunday evening
User7: thats good?
User6: 4pm is good
User6: so 10am your time
User7: cool
User3: What is this UTC?
User7: i put it in my book
User7: and i'll try for the last sunday of the month
User7: regularly
User7: OR the first would be fine too
User7: User3 im +5?
User7: i think
User7: and its 10am
User7: does that sound right?
 * holstein looks online
User7: cant do it now... gotta run
User7: BUT its 10am EST
User3: So, 5 UTC?  That's actually not a bad time for me, surprisingly :)
User3: Oh, 15 UTC.  Yeah, that's less good (except today)
User6: UTC  is one hour earlier
User7: scott-work: is there an ubuntustudio wiki page about meetings?
User7: one that i can put some pre-converted times up
User7: and a link to possible agendas or archives
User7: i'll edit that then
User7: and get something going
User7: scott-work: is there a reason why we need to meet before march 6th?
User7: im going to go for that
User7: try this regularly for a bit
User7: a few months at least
User7: and go from there
User7: ive had some general 'when would be the best time for a meeting' queries
User7: that have resulted in tumble weeds drifting through the mailing list
User7: this doesnt mean that someone else cant schedule a specific meeting
User7: i said that recently in a response on the email list
User7: just come here and ask you when you're available and schedule a meeting
User7: yup
User7: IF we have a decent turn out for the first sunday of the month meetings
User7: we can leave that, and add others if needed
User7: to accomodate whatever
User1: I'm available most of the time. The proposed time would work well for me
User7: sorry, phone... im back now
User7: User1 cool
User7: so thats a go for ailo and autostatic
User7: i havent seen stochastic in a while
User7: scott-work: persia seems to be ok with it, and OK with not being able to be there
User7: we will have logs for sure
User7: and hopefully agendas in the near future
User7: scott-work: cool, and that could be a totally seperate meeting
User7: as far as im concerned
User7: you guys could even do that privately if needed
User7: via email
User7: whatever it takes
User7: sure, i think it was brian that i replied to on the list
User7: possibly with a bit of a tone ;)
User7: scott-work: i would be fine if brian/eric just report to you
User7: or whoever you appoint
User7: IF they cant make a regular meeting time
User7: sure, i was encouraging him to pick the time that works for him
User7: BUT, its challenging
User7: with the TZ's
User7: and all the schedules
User7: i guess im just saying im about at the end of what i feel like im comfortable doing to try and negotiate a meeting time
User7: and not get frustrated
User7: not opposed to some polling though
User7: while thinking it over though, i decided that no one time is going to work for everyone
User7: and i think just being regular will help with the TZ's
User3: There are a couple times of day that are least bad for all folks.
User3: It really depends on where folk are located.
User7: scott-work: not yet
User7: let me get it UTC'd
User7: User3 and you can see if you think its one of those times as well
User1: scott-work: You said you needed a secretary of some sort. What exactly would that mean?
User7: OK
User7: http://5z8.info/orgy.avi_b6g6h_horse-slaughter
User7: shady url is at least 20% more fun than tiny URL :)
User7: 3pm UTC
User7: on a sunday
User7: thats probably not too bad
User7: scott-work: is this 9am for you right?
User7: scott-work: i'll tighten up the wiki and all that 2 weeks before whatever meeting time we land on
User7: if its the 6th, i should have time to procrastinate a bit, and still get everything looking right
User7: bbl... gotta run again...
User3: There's a low chance I can attend.  It's not safe to expect me, but if I happen to be up fairly late.
User1: scott-work: User8 Hope I'm not annoying you with these. I did another version. Just learning how to use Glade while I do it :).  http://imagebin.org/137225
User1: http://imagebin.org/137224
User1: http://imagebin.org/137226
User1: http://imagebin.org/137227
User1: This time I did a 4 page version, where the first page already takes care of everything for the lazy user.
User3: ailo, Rather than extras, might be good to target ubuntu-restricted-addons.  From what I understand, addons should be usable by anyone, but extras may not be legal for use for some number of people.
User8: User1 hell yeah :)
User8: User1 send me the glade when you have a chance
User3: I'm also fairly certain that we won't get a realtime kernel in Natty.  Maybe for Natty+1: it really depends on some documentation being available and RT upstream activity.  Currently kernels < 2.6.35 don't do very well with Natty.
User1: scott-work: I didn't follow any tutorial, but it's pretty straight forward, I think. I don't really have an opinion about the extras.
User3: I'm not happy about having tools that enable PPAs and install stuff from them without making this very clear to the user.
User3: My warning is more that there are some parts of userspace that are expecting 2.6.35+, and so older kernels may end up having odd behaviours.
User8: thanks, ailo!
User1: User3 So, if we add a popup that explains about the PPA and requires the user to accept, would that be ok?
User3: Less bad.  If you do implement that, please use the appropriate APIs in software-center, etc.
User1: scott-work: About those extras. I haven't really looked at joshuagillespie@example.net. You think some of those packages are illegal in some countries?
User1: scott-work: Ubuntu isn't exactly warning the user when installing those packages, but we could of course do that.
User1: scott-work: I don't really have any other opinion about the addons and extras, other than that I would like it to include everything if possible.
User1: Even running the libdvdcss2 would be nice.
User1: scott-work: Maybe the way I broke it down is not logical, I haven't investigated.
User1: At least I can see the point in having "absolutely legal" and "maybe legal" in two separate tasks
User1: scott-work: This is the key phrase. Same text in Synaptic and SoftwareCenter "Please also note that packages from multiverse are restricted by copyright or legal issues in some countries."
User1: scott-work: I can do that
User1: scott-work: I've been thinking of how we could make a scheme about each button. I would rather not decide on the actual text used, so someone else could help with that. Text for notifiers and popups mainly
User1: User8 Whatever you need, just ask
User8: User1 you got it!
User8: User1 I really dig that layout, almost identical to what i was thinking in my head
User8: User1 well done, really. Well done
User1: User8 Thank you
User1: User8 I could prepare some text on what each button should do, what happens when you push them for tomorrow, if that's ok.
User8: User1 that would rock
User8: User1 I'm going to work on generic code, nothing will touch the glade
User1: User8 Ok. I'll get back to you tomorrow, then.
User8: User1 I can actually work with what you have now, and then update alongside with you, if you swear to not change names :)
User8: User1 roger! You're already doing wonders better then a "pro" interface designer :)
User8: User1 did you see the *crap* I was sent?
User1: User8 The glade file is missing a lot in terms of names, I think, so I'd rather edit what you use
User1: No, didn't see it.
User8: User1 someone had the balls to send me this -- http://i.imgur.com/jCwTv.png
User8: User1 I was livid
User8: scott-work: :)
User1: User8 You will probably want to use your own naming schemes, so that's also why I only edited the names that you see
User8: User1 OK. I'll take a look down the tree. My guess is that it will be perfect for our 1.0 deadline
User8: User1 it's about getting it working and making it work right ( but not more ;) )
User1: User8 But, changing the visual text should be no problem, right? Shouldn't affect your coding at all, I think
User8: scott-work: can you believe that shitty design?
User8: User1 yeah, no problem there!
User9: that's a great screenshot. ;-)
User8: User1 I access stuff by their names, and I won't be mucking around with text much, I'll just be setting callbacks on buttons
User8: User9 dude, I was not happy with that at all
User1: scott-work: Why change memlock?
User8: User9 I could not believe someone sent that rather then saying "no" or "I can't"
User9: User8 no shit.
User8: User9 How are you today?
User9: User8 not bad, you?
User8: User9 not too bad, thanks!
User8: User1 We can abstract that pretty well. If I can get this running in 3 days or so ( This weekend is hack-factor-5 ), we can fine tune it to 1.0 in time for freeze
User8: sorry scott-work *
User8: also ailo
User1: scott-work: I heard about rtprio having to be 95 for some reason, which it is
User8: scott-work: worst comes to worst, we file a few RC bugs against ubutnu studio and have the upload close them. We can play that game ;)
User8: User1 you're my dude, man! Rock on!
User1: User2 Now, I noticed, there's a new file in /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf, Installed by the ubuntustudio-audio package
User1: scott-work: It has @audio   -  rtprio     99, instead of 95
User1: That's all it does
User9: Say, I've been wondering if UbuntuStudio would  be interested in an updated UI. I develop Dream Studio, which currently uses a monochrome version of Ambiance, as well as a dark version of the same. Since UbuntuStudio and KXStudio both use blue themes, I've been wondering if either of these projects would be interested in using a version of DreamStudio's themes, but with blue highlights. I'm very much interested in u
User8: scott-work: sounds like your que! :)
User9: I've just proposed the same question to the KXStudio devs
User8: User9 do you have a link, I'd really like to play with it, if you don't mind :)
User8: +1 scott-work
User1: scott-work: I only installed the Ubuntustudio-audio package recently. Don't know why I didn't before, so I don't know when it appeared there. I would remove that file from that package, since jackd already takes care of that, and let -controls edit or replace it, if needed
User9: paultag, scott-work: My themes for Lucid and Maverick had some kinks to work out, which are now fixed but only on my home computer. I'll post here as soon as I've got something ready to look at.
User8: User9 outstanding
User9: BTW, a consistent UI (which is as close to stock ubuntu as possible), was one of the main reasons I began Dream Studio (the others were branding and newer packages.
User9: would you guys consider adding a button to that dialog that adds audio ppas (autostatic and kxstudio)? That could really open up a lot of possiblities for new/additional software that didn't make it to UbuntuStudio by release time.
User9: scott-work: understandable.
User9: I'll keep you posted. Peace out for now...
User1: scott-work: I think there are two files in the ubuntustudio-audio package that are not needed. The /etc/security/limits.d/ubuntustudio-audio-rtprio.conf, and /usr/share/ubuntustudio-audio/rtprio.py
User1: scott-work: Yea, I think so too. Before jackd started shipping audio.conf perhaps?
User8: scott-work: yeah, man. I really dig the icons, I think that looks sharp as all hell
User1: scott-work: Why not pimp up on the ambiance theme? I like dark themes, but so many of them are not very functional.
User8: scott-work: I also +1'd the we need an art guy
User8: scott-work: +1. There's a huge gap between nerds and graphic design folk
User1: scott-work: I wouldn't mind UbuntuStudio to be more similar to Ubuntu in design, especially since the Ambiance theme kind of rocks.
User1: scott-work: It would make things easier on us, if we were just to tweak that a little bit.
User3: ailo, scott-work: the audio.conf and rtprio.py stuff is something which diwic is better asked about.
User3: Last I knew, the remaining work was 1) add memlock support to rtkit (or create memkit), and 2) make JACK use rtkit (and memkit, if created).
User1: User3 But, then the files will not be needed anyway, right? If using rtkit and memkit..
User3: Right.  If diwic completes his spec, the files aren't needed.  If he runs out of time, the files may be needed.
User3: Depends how much time he has, really.
User3: Of course, if anyone wants to help, I'm sure he'd appreciate it.
User1: User3 But, I don't think we need those files now, even, since jackd provides rtprio and memlock with /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
User1: The package jackd, that is
User3: Ah, maybe we don't need them in ubuntustudio-controls then, and diwic's spec lets us drop that file from jackd
User1: User3 jackd includes an installation script which provides that file, if the user chooses to have rt or not. We will also add that file through the new -controls, if not already there.
User1: True
User3: The issue is that the way that jackd does it isn't very secure.  It grants rights to users who oughtn't have them, and fails to grant rights to users who ought have them.
User3: It also forces us to retain the "audio" group, which is dropped everywhere else, and actively deprecated in an increasing volume of documentation.
User1: User3 Yes, but until we get rtkit going, we don't have any choice, right?
User3: Right.
User3: Point being that this change is dependent on diwic's spec, and we ought be following that, rather than just adding stuff.
User3: It may be that we want ubuntustudio-controls to do something slightly different than it does now, depending on how much progress diwic makes.
User3: But he doesn't tend to idle in this channel, so has to be hunted down.
User1: User2 Do you have his email? David Henningsson / diwic
User10: hi there
User10: hi ScottL
User1: hey rlameiro
User10: hey ailo, how is it going
User10: I was making more tests on the alpha... its looking bad for my side...
User1: I started a test patch on puredata, yesterday I think, but it seems the -generic kernel changes a lot perfomance-wise, so I didn't continue on the patch
User10: I think i need to buy an external ti chipset Firewire board
User10: really?
User10: well, i need to update then
User1: periodic xruns?
User10: a lot of Xruns and a lot of little ones too
User10: pd has a lot of crackles
User1: No matter which period/buffer?
User1: Do you get good performance with an -rt kernel?
User1: and rtirq script
User10: User1 with rt it improves but not too much
User10: thats what i need to know
User1: What chip is it?
User1: The firewire chip, that is
User10: how does rtirq work on ubuntustudio?
User10: RICOH.....
User1: Doesn't work without an -rt kernel
User2: hi rlameiro
User10: aon board, probably with shared IRQ
User1: I guess it's because of ricoh, then. Heard very bad things about it
User10: User2 hey, not beeing a good tester....
User10: User2 we should make some kind of hardware recommendations on release notes
User1: User10 rtirq script should take care of irq share problems
User10: but do I need to runn it?
User10: wasnt he on a rule somewhere?
User10: like it would run when some FW device is plugged or something?
User10: I remeber someone talking about it, not sure if it was an idea tough...
User1: the rtirq scrip is available as a package. You should try with a distro that has -rt kernel and rtirq script together
User1: puredyne should be fine to test
User1: The rtirq script is joshuagillespie@example.net. Not sure about the details
User10: I will take a look into Ubuntustudio
User1: It gives higher prio to audio devices
User10: well, then i need to have the interface connected at boot time...
User1: But, it will only work with an -rt kernel
User10: yes i know that
User1: Not with -lowlatency
User1: I don't think you need to have the device connected at boot time, but I'm not sure.
User10: well, either way, i want to run it on ubuntu studio...
User1: Lucid has realtime kernel, right?
User1: puredyne uses the same kernel as ubuntustudio karmic
User1: puredyne 910 and 911, that is
User10: I still have 9.10 for hardcore pd usage...
User1: You probably have rtirq installed on that. The package is called rtirq-init
User2: rlameiro, sorry, just got home, catching up with backscroll
User10: User2 np
User10: User1 yes i have
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