User1: User2 ping
User2: Hi stgraber
User2: That tftpd thing is a pain :)
User1: well, currently I'm debugging some iTalc as it seems the launcher in Karmic is broken with ltsp ;)
User2: Ouch. I think I'll move away from iTalc, as I couldn't make it work in my newest lab. It crashed every few seconds...
User2: Also the developer isn't really responsive when one sends patches or questions... :-/
 * alkisg wishes there were more upstream italc developers
 * alkisg just noticed "Karmic" there. stgraber, in which case, exactly?
User1: when iTalc runs locally on the thin client
User1: I just found what was wrong and fixed it
User1: the code to determine isd_host was inside the except determining isd_port
User2: Ah. Yeah I think Gadi said something about that a week ago... I don't know, I've never used it this way
User1: so basically, if isd_port is set as xprop, it would never look for isd_host
User1: anyway, fixed and uploaded to lucid
User2: Maybe we should set all the info in the xprop
User2: Not just the port, but the ip as well.
User2: Ah, ok
User2: Were the shutdown/reboot patches included?
User1: I don't think so, I'm a bit backlogged on iTalc work.
User1: would you be able to propose a branch on LP with everything that you proposed to be included ?
User2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/italc/+bug/367960
User3: Ubuntu bug 367960 in italc ""power down" request fails on 9.04; logout instead" [Medium,Incomplete]
User2: Hmmm does that have to be done before FF?
User2: I could have a look at it later on this month, but not right now...
User1: no, that's packaging work, I can still upload after FF
User2: ok
User4: stgraber, i'd discuss the tftp issue on ubuntu-devel btw ... the path change was long ago already we just didnt sync it anymore in karmic
User2: ogra, so is apache also going to use /srv?
User4: probably, not sure
User4: but i know the changes have been discussed in debian a lot back then
User4: so DDs will know about it and comment if you start a thread on u-devel
User2: Ah. If this has been given a fair amount of thought, then maybe the best thing would be to change ltsp to use the new defaults.
User4: well, lets hear people that participated in the debian discussion :)
 * alkisg wonders if ltsp-preinst can preseed tftpd..
User4: not sure thats policy compliant
User4: since you cant be sure tftpd isnt already installed
 * alkisg asked in ubuntu-devel this morning, but didn't get any answers... so waits for stgraber to make the next move :)
User4: so you would change an existing setup
User2: Why?
User4: i was talking about the ML :)
User2: We could check all the debconf selections and conffiles...
User4: alkisg, imagine you ahve a server you run since several releases and picked to go with one or the other option ...
User4: now you install ltsp and the setup is silently changed
User2: It'll be stored in debconf, then
User2: No need to change his setup
User2: I was talking about preseeding for new setups only...
User4: no need to preseed then
User2: For the cd installer, preseeding is needed, we don't want to prompt the user about the path
User2: And I wouldn't prompt for new ltsp installations either...
User2: (if tftp is installed as part of ltsp-server, then we assume we know where we want tftpdir to be)
User1: User2 so you sent an e-mail to ubuntu-devel ?
User2: User1 no - just the irc channell :)
User2: I'm not subscribed to the ML
User5: Morning all
User1: ok, I'll send an e-mail to ubuntu-devel then
User5: Did I read a bug report email correctly today?
User5: That edubuntu's live dvd *only* and no alternative install dvd?
User5: i.e. the text based one?
User2: According to cjwatson, we're now completely graphical :) No more text-based edubuntu...
User1: ogra, User2 I'll pastebin it for both of you to read
User2: Thanks
User5: I don't like robertphillips@example.org.
User2: sbalneav, there's still the live dvd for text based installations...
User5: But the alternative dvd had all the actual packages on them, and could be easily used for ltsp chroot building.
User2: I think Edubuntu is more targeted to teachers, who don't really like text... they get too much of it for their lessons already :P
User2: (or students, etc etc)
User5: Was this discussed somewhere?
User4: you take away the tasksel option with that
User2: In the last few meetings?
User4: which has no graphical equivalent
User2: Can't one use the live dvd to install ubuntu, and then tasksel install edubuntu-desktop-gnome on top of that?
 * alkisg wasn't the one that put the "no text installer" idea, but supports it...
User4: yes, but you cant install a plain server that gives you a LAMP and mail machine for example
User4: so you exclude all advanced school admins
User4: the kind of people that dont want a gui on their server
User4: before you could do both from the same DVD
User2: ? why would advanced school admins that want to install a LAMP / mail server use the edubuntu dvd and not the server one?
User4: because its already on there and they only need to do one download
User1: User5 LTSP will be moved in the Live environment. Classroom server wasn't used and had a lot of issues so we chose to drop it for this time and potentially add it back later.
User4: you simply force edubuntu into that GIU only side now
User2: User4 yes, and save 2 Gb downloads for all teachers/students...
User4: which excludes university adimns advanced shool admins etc
User4: ??
User2: I mean, if a student wants to download edubuntu, why would he have to download 2 gb more just to support an admin who can use the server cd?
User2: (and I believe there will be more students using edubuntu than admins...)
User4: well, all i'm saying is that you exclude a lot of people and opportunities that were covered before
User4: what you actually want is a liveCD apparently
User4: not an edubuntu DVD with all its benefits
User2: A live edubuntu dvd, yes...
User4: but thats up to you guys
User2: Not a CD - edu apps don't fit to a single cd
User4: i'm just pointing out ...
User4: i think its a big mistake, but your choice
User2: Doesn't the ubuntu live cd cover all those cases?
User2: (i.e. the admin that wants to install a lamp server etc?)
 * ogra somehow thinks he understood that "its own special edu distro again" wrongly
User1: ogra, sbalneav, User2 http://pastebin.com/m2a29411e
User4: and specifically all the fuss that went on recently in this channel about a perfect ldap setup, web driven user maintenance etc etc
User4: stgraber, wow, i wasnt aware of that version jump :)
User2: User1 syntax error there? "especially has it's very likely to break"
User1: User2 indeed, fixed.
User2: I think I'd also ask about apache - I think those changes should be synchronized...
User4: stgraber, looks good (apart from the typo)
User2: I.e. they should both move to /srv at the same time, or robertphillips@example.org...
User2: (i.e. maybe we should leave tftp as it is for now, and change it later, when apache in ubuntu is ready for the change)
User4: alkisg, well, follow up on stephanes mail then with that concern
User4: sounds valid to me
User4: but should be seen by more eyes
User1: User4 well, experience showed that university and other cases where you want the server side of Edubuntu currently don't use our DVD as using netboot (mini.iso) is a lot faster. I'm clearly not against shipping a well designed and working Edubuntu server and we'll have that included as soon as we have someone working on it (but I'd avoid shipping the whole desktop twice though)
User2: Mhmok, /me subscribes to the the ML...
User4: stgraber, well, but that means if you got it in L+1 you have to reverse all you do in L
User2: This one? (it isn't in launchpad?) https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
User4: seems a waste of work to me
User4: alkisg, the core lists are mostly in mailman :)
User2: k, ty
User4: and yes, that one
User1: User4 for Lucid, the main focus is to have the desktop updated, good looking, having a possibility to get the netbook interface and LTSP in a more user friendly way. Then I'm fine with improving the server side in the upcoming releases assuming we have people commiting to work on that.
User4: well, the most discussions i have seen in the channel over the last weeks were by people intrested in contributing to a slick server solution
User1: User4 well, not really, I wouldn't revert the LTSP change or that repository change. We'd just add what's needed for a server install to the seed and for LTSP, use the chroot that's already included on the DVD
User1: User4 the LDAP stuff is sbalneav's plan for 12.04 IIRC
User4: i'm not talking LTSP here :)
User4: and i didnt mean sbalneav who is swamped in other work
User4: all persons that expressed interest in joining the team newly seemed to have some server based interests
User2: Any names?
User4: joerg_ for example
User4: i saw at least three other guys in hot discussions here
User2: I think joerg_ wanted a web-based frontend
User4: imho the change you plan simply excludes that part of the community
User2: That can even be included in the live dvd... you don't need a text based installer for that..
User4: alkisg, how would he get that without the ability to install a webserver ?
User2: Why wouldn't he be able to install a web server?
User4: well, as i said its beyond me to discuss that
User4: i'm totally swamped in other stuff and surely dont contribute much but my opinion to edubuntu anymore ...
User2: Your opinion is always welcome
User4: i just expressed that opinion ... seems the decision happened anyway :)
User4: i just think its a failure
User2: ...but personally I don't understand why those things can't be done from a graphical installer...
User4: and wanted to mention that with no offense to anyone or even that decision
User4: because it doesnt have that ability
User4: its a live image installer
 * alkisg didn't take part on that decision. He just thinks it was a good decision...
User4: and it wont grow that ability
User1: User4 I guess we'll see how it works. I don't think it's a bad choice for Lucid and everyone seemed happy with it (both at UDS and during meetings). I personaly always had in mind that the Content server or whatever we call it will come back in the near future.
User2: ogra, can't a live cd install a web server if it uses the cd as a package source?
User4: alkisg, no, not as its designed atm, it has to be in the live image so everyomne (even desktop installs) gets it
User1: User2 it could and we'll do something like that for the netbook interface and LTSP, though I guess in most case you don't want the whole UI for a web server.
User4: the live installer copies the live image 1:1 and then removes the unneeded bits
User4: you will need to redesign ubiquity for such additional features
User4: or have multiple live images
User2: But afaik there *are* some packages in the live ubuntu cd... which doesn't have a text based installer... or did I get that wrong?
User4: all duplicating themselves
User5: So, basically, for people in countries with poor internet access, if they get someone to mail them an Edubuntu dvd, they can't use it to build the ltsp image.
User5: this is a huge loss.
User4: alkisg, you have a /pool directory on the live CD from which you can apt-get install packages manually for non networked systems
User6: poor countries like germany :)
User6: with 64kbit isdn internet connections :D
User4: joerg_, ++
User4: :)
User1: User4 that's true though we'll hack a bit around that (lacking the time to properly patch ubiquity) so the user gets prompted to install the netbook interface and/or LTSP.
User1: after ubiquity is done
User4: you are aware that netboot and desktop dont work well together
User1: User5 that's not true, a generated ltsp.img will be on the DVD and will be unpacked if the user choses to install LTSP
User4: at least in a switchable way
User4: ?
User1: User4 yes, that's why it will only be installed if the user choses to after the install, the packages won't be installed otherwise
User4: not sure if the desktop team fixed that but we had to remove the ability to switch completely because it broke all sorts of things
User5: User1 and if the user then wants to install something like Firefox in the chroot for localapps?
User4: (in karmic that is)
User4: sbalneav, he would have to do that post install from an online archive ...
User1: User5 indeed, that's the case where we'll have a bit less functionality than we used to have. He'll have to download firefox and its dependencies in this csae.
User4: but definately not from the DVD
User2: User5 he can do all that with the live ubuntu dvd, can't he? Shouldn't edubuntu target different needs than the live ubuntu dvd?
User4: alkisg, he cant
User5: User4 right, but with the alt dvd, s/he could just grab the package from there.
User4: alkisg, you dont have packages on a live image (unless you explicitly put them into /pool, which you guys just disabled)
User4: sbalneav, exactly my point :)
User2: ogra, I said the *ubuntu* dvd, not the edubuntu one..
User1: User4 he said "ubuntu" not "edubuntu" :) and yes the Ubuntu DVD covers that
User2: Doesn't that have all the packages?
User4: alkisg, sure, if he wants to download another 4G
User5: I personally, in my travels to Brazil, know of, and have worked with, people who are setting up LTSP labs in areas where there is NO internet access.  They have to truck everything in on a CD/DVD
User4: so you already excluded the parts of the world that had the most edubuntu users by switching to DVD ... now you exclude even more ...
User5: Right, I was about to say, the move to dvd was probably jarring enough for these people.
User4: yeah
User5: They may be able to borrow dvd players, but you just can't get internet in the Amazon interior
User4: or africa
User2: So what did edubuntu offer to these countries that the live ubuntu dvd didn't ?
User5: A proper package archive with all the packages that they could add with apt-cd
User5: the live filesystem doesn't have those packages.
User2: That's on the ubuntu dvd, and has more packages than edubuntu.
User2: Anything else?
User5: Now they need two dvds
User2: No, just one
User4: alkisg, back then they could get it from shipit ... it was a CD for which they rather easily could find something to isntall the media from
User2: The ubuntu dvd...
User4: now you need internet for two DVDs, a DVD writer and player
User2: Why two dvds? Why isn't the ubuntu dvd enough?
User5: So we're telling people they need two dvds?  One to install Edubuntu from, and then one Ubuntu dvd for the packages?
User4: heh
User4: anyway, i need to go back to work ... FF approaching quickly ... i expressed my concerns
User4: decision is yours :)
User5: I mean, before, we could just tell these people: you need the alternative install dvd.  You don't get the graphical installer, but you DO get everything you need to setup a full lab WITHOUT an internet connection.
User2: And they can still do that with JUST the ubuntu live dvd.
User4: and how do they get their edubuntu desktop ?
User5: Then we're driving them away from Edubuntu
User2: (btw, that's what teachers here are doing in places with 64kbps connections - they're using the ubuntu dvd)
User5: right, so if we generated the edubuntu alternate dvd, they wouldn't have to.
User2: User5 also, that was not true. There was no language support in the alternate cd. That was only true for english speaking countries..
User2: They'd still need internet access or an additional media.
User4: on the dvd ??
User5: Right, which is why I've ALSO been arguing that we should be using the space on the dvd NOT FOR SILLY PRE-PACKAGED LTSP CHROOTS!!!!11one, but for mor langpacks
User5: since you can GENERATE the ltsp chroot from the dvd
User2: I think stgraber has put all the langpacks now.
User5: Great.  As it should be.
User5: That was the greatest failing of the cd.
User1: yeah, I spent a week fixing the langpacks
User4: has anyone tested the ltsp-live setup with more than one client ?
User1: User5 do you think people installing things in the chroot is really that much of an issue ? Do they have people powerful enough for localapps in country where they don't have fast internet ?
User1: User5 if it's really an issue, I don't have any problem putting a fat-client image on the DVD instead with the fat-client mode turned off, that way they'll have everything in it and can enable these localapps when they want
User5: They probably don't, but why should we limit that case.
User5: Here's my opinion, FWIW:
User1: User4 that's on highvoltage's todo list
User4: stgraber, i tried something like that back in the days and it was unusable ...
User4: but probably CD roms are more speedy nowadays
User2: User4 ltsp in a live dvd? I tried it 2 months ago, it worked fine.
User5: 1) I won't argue with a live boot.  Personally, I don't use it.  I'd rather install text mode.  However, text mode SHOULD be available as a last resort for people with broken video.
User1: User4 I'd also expect that the machine used for that has more RAM (at least 2GB), so caching will make it a lot faster. But that's still to be tested.
User5: 2) The DVD should have a proper APT archive, so that ALL packages that we ship can be installed from the DVD, regardless of internet connection status.
User4: alkisg, with more than one person using it
User5: 3) ALL langpacks should be there *by default*.
User2: ogra, my squashfs was 1 Gb, it could easily be loaded in RAM, all of it..
User2: (the casper one)
User2: I can't imagine any ltsp servers with less than 2 gb
User4: the point is that it isnt by default, what did you add to casper to achieve that ?
User4: its mounted only from the CD
User5: If we have to sacrifice a live boot, or live ltsp chroot to obtain 2 and 3, then, In My Humble Opinion, thats what should happen, because 2 and 3 ensure that we can bring Edubuntu to *the widest possible audience*.  I don't care about bling and first impressions.  I care about making sure it's available to everyone.
User4: if you start FF or OOo it will just be darn slow
User7: Hi all, new here. Still wrestling with that audio feedback thing. "Solved" it by unplugging the mic, but I want students to be able to use the mic. I'm a little confused as to how to edit the lts.conf. I know there are two, one requiring an image remake. Found that one at: /opt/ltsp/i386/etc and it referred me to: var/lib/tfftp/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
User5: But that's just me.
User4: sbalneav, and me :)
User2: ogra, nothing. I just told the teachers/testers not to take into account the speed on the first 15 minutes of using the dvd, but only after that...
User4: heh
User4: great if you have a 20min presentation
User4: which i thought was the only purpose of the live-ltsp
User2: I don't :) I have teachers that want to test if their labs are suitable for ltsp.
User7: However, no lts.conf there but pxelinux.cfg/default
 * stgraber has to run to a meeting, was great hearing everyone's opinion and we'll have to consider some options to take that into account. Would have been better to know that at UDS time though ;)
User4: stgraber, i wasnt aware of that plan, sorry
User2: Bye stgraber
User4: XuzhouJim, you can create the file if you need it
User2: User5 I think the plan is to have all of the 3 things you mentioned
User2: (except for the last resort == text mode :D)
User7: do I need section headings or just MIC_VOLUME=10 and VOLUME=50?
User2: You need a [Default] section heading
User7: indent section headings or just options?
User2: [Default]
User2: MIC_VOLUME=10
User2: VOLUME=50
User2: Put that in /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf.
User7: OK, BRB
User7: OK, that did something but now I can't get the mic to record. Can I get the mic to work WITHOUT the feedback squeel?
User5: User8 is it just a case that the volume's too low?
User5: If you're using a mic, you really should be using headphones.
User8: I adjusted the input volume. Then I can hear background noise but no voice. Am using a headphone/mic combo
User4: great ... stgraber has support from the server team on the tftp issue ... good sign
User5: You're getting feedback.... with headphones?! Wow.
User8: Sorry, didn't explain well.
User9: ping
User8: The mic is being routed through the speaker/headphone. With headphones no feedback but stiil get too much noise. When I set mic_volume=10, don't get the background noise but can't record either.
User8: Is it just a matter of playing with the mic_volume and volume settings till  I get a good balance?
User5: I'd say, yes.
User5: Go up by 5's I'd say, so try 15, 20, etc.
User2: User8 afaik there's a problem with sound initialization - it has to be low to get rid of the feedback, but after the initialization it should be high again, and it isn't.
User2: User8 if you use the mixer while recording your voice, and raise the mic volume, doesn't it work ok?
User2: Or do you get feedback then as well?
User8: raising the mic volume in the mixer just records a background buzz, no voice.
User8: Can you point me to the section I should read up on in the LTSPManual?
User10: User1 ping? you remember https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp-cluster/+bug/178895/comments/29 ?
User3: Ubuntu bug 178895 in audacity "Audacity does not mesh with PulseAudio" [Low,Fix released]
User10: User5 ping?
User5: User10 pong
User10: User5 hey - did you get my msg last night re: session time limits in gnome?
User5: No, I didn't
User5: User10 Can you repaste?
User10: User5 well basically I was wondering if something such as a "user session time limit", whether it be per day/week/month/etc, is something that might want to go into Gnome itself, or a separate utility that could be developed
User2: lns_, have you looked at gnome nanny?
User10: User2 yep, I haven't used it at all though - are you using it?
User2: lns_, no, (I've installed it once but didn't get to use it), but it does have session time limit support...
User10: It seems to be kind of geared toward a very specific audience (small children who need access restrictions)
User2: And even for specific hours per day, if one needs it
User10: It would seem strange to install something like that in a high school
User2: So I guess code could be taken from there (under a different UI, of course...)
User2: User10 why? I don't think it's necessary for the UI to be shown to the students
User10: User2 not just students but staff perception...
User2: Anyway, I didn't use it so I can't express any opinions - just thought I'd give the link :)
User10: User2 thx =) Yeah I looked a bit at it but it seems like something like user session time limits could be something real easy to implement (maybe?) outside of this big program
User5: yeah, I was going to say, nanny's already there.
User10: User5 have you used it?
User10: looks like you can only install via source - no packaging/integration...this is something that i've had many requests for in the past
User10: with a dist. like edubuntu it would be really neat to have that kind of functionality ootb
User5: I beleive they have a ppa, if not, I'll look at packaging it.
User5: I haven't had time to play with it, but I know it does time restrictions.
User10: yeah i saw a screenie on their site, it looks neat
User10: nice little graph with green/red bars to show when someone can log in and when they can't
User10: i was thinking "hmm, pessulus integration"... ;)
User2: It does have ubuntu packages, I installed it from their ppa
 * lns_ googles
User10: goes down to jaunty, not bad
 * lns_ is starting to mentally ditch the idea that anyone wants to do anything for hardy anymore ;)
User10: https://launchpad.net/~guadalinex-members/+archive/ppa/+packages
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