User1: isn't it duuku?
User2: @schedule US/Chicago
User2: @schedule Chicago
User3: Schedule for America/Chicago: 17 Apr 10:00: Kernel Team | 17 Apr 15:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 07:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 10:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 15:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 15:00: Edubuntu
User4: @schedule amsterdam
User3: Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 17 Apr 17:00: Kernel Team | 17 Apr 22:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 17:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu
User5: hi
User6: hi
User7: @schedule montreal
User3: Schedule for America/Montreal: 17 Apr 11:00: Kernel Team | 17 Apr 16:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Kernel Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Apr 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 18 Apr 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:00 UTC: Development Team | 24 Apr 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 25 Apr 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
User8: So, we're all here...
User8: Agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting although it is a bit out-of-date
User8: kernel-release schedule...uh, released :)
User8: bug status...stable, but still reviewing for post-release updates
User8: I think basically we're at a point where we can move on to gutsy topics, and the new kernel tree
User9: Lets cleanup the wireless stuff.
User8: well, the tree is going to change considerably
User8: stock kernel is going to be in ubuntu-2.6.git
User8: all extra drivers are being moved to a linux-ubuntu-modules package
User10: the current tree will be used for any updates to Feisty?
User10: The new tree will only be for Gutsy?
User8: User10 ubuntu-feisty.git is for feisty security and stable release updates
User8: right
User8: ubuntu-2.6.git right now is just a clone of linux-2.6.git
User7: im still mulling over the virtualization infrastructure stuff
User8: I'll push that to the public kernel.org repo soon
User8: User7 probably best to hang tight till I get the build infrastructure in place
User7: User8 no problem..
User8: at this point, I have a local .diff of the delta between ubuntu-feisty.git and upstream code
User8: I'm merging patches into for-linus branch in preparation for the 2.6.22 merge window with Linus
User8: but we'll be sending out the patches sooner than that to get good feedback
User10: how much of this delta will be pushed upstream?
User8: my intention is to get all of it pushed upstream
User11: Are you differentiating between core code and external drivers?
User8: the current diff is only ~65k, and a lot of that is toshiba_acpi and DSDT-acpi-initramfs
User11: Ok
User8: User11 yes
User11: Len's consistently refused the DSDT-acpi-initramfs patch
User8: I haven't touched the ubuntu/* stuff yet
User8: I know, but it's so bogus to do so
User11: Indeed
User8: we allow DSDT to be built into the kernel, so there's no argument for not allowing manual DSDT override
User8: I think it's the initramfs early prep that's ugly, but unavoidable
User8: Anyway, I'll post my current diff, and keep it updated as I put things in for-linus...need to push that branch out to the ubuntu-2.6.git anyway
User12: User8 question... now that you want to have ubuntu-2.6.git basically vanilla and linux-ubuntu-modules...
User12: what about patches that affects deeply vanilla?
User12: are we going to fork the code and slam it in ubuntu-modules?
User12: and if so how to we managed changes to core parts of the kernel that needs to be inline?
User8: in severe cases yes...minor updates (like some of the ocfs2 stable patches) we can keep in the vanilla tree
User8: I'm going to be extremely tight on what goes in there...mostly to keep myself in check
User8: I've always been pretty liberal with syncing to things like drivers/ata/, and most times for good reason, but we always end up getting bitten with some unforseen bugs
User8: check-ins for ubuntu-2.6 will most times go through a two-signed-off-by process
User8: even for me :)
User12: Signed-off-by: Ben Collins <mariagarner@example.net>
User8: exceptions will be things like debian/* updates and trivial s/KERN_ERR/KERN_INFO/ types things
User12: Signed-off-by: Angie Collins <mariagarner@example.net>
User8: lol, busted
User8: I'll be writing up a more thorough explanation of the gutsy tree this week
User8: update wiki, etc.
User9: I assume jgarzik will choose 2.6.22 as the next stable tree. Why wouldn't we track it almost exactly for the next 3 or 4 months?
User12: User9 because users will never be satisfied without their tons of extra drivers
User8: User9 we'll get it by naturally following linux-2.6, so to avoid delta and crud, we'll just wait for it
User12: or tons of extra patches to gain half FPS out of glxgears
User8: User9 if he syncs for 2.6.22, then we'll get it within 3-4 weeks anyway
User8: User12 I need for gutsy's kernel process to be an excercise in how gutsy+1 will go (since it maybe the next LTS)
User8: so we may end up saying "Sorry, we can't take in a huge chunk of code for drivers/char/drm/ updates because we need the current code to remain stable"
User13: did you revert the drm stuff for feisty, btw?
User12: User8 oh yeah. i get your idea.. that's not the issue... i have the feeling it's going to clash with other kind of requests like .. we need to support my Bluetooth dildo kind of thing
User8: where as before it was like "Sure, I'll git-pull the entire damn thing"
User8: User13 I reverted my initial sync, but then dropped back to 2.6.21's stuff
User13: ok.
User8: User12 bluetooth dildo == Wishlist...want me to open a bug for you? :)
User12: User8 sure thing :)
User8: so a big portion of the roadmap for gutsy revolves around these changes in the build system, and kernel maint policies
User8: some of these things will get discusses at UDS because they could benefit from input outside the kernel-team (release managers, archive maint, etc)
User8: some of them will just get done (ditching kernel-package, O= build system, linux-source split from linux-ubuntu-modules, etc.)
User8: Ah, another bug area we want to fill is validation testing of the kernel build
User11: Well, the difficulty is in ensuring that we don't regress in breadth of hardware support
User8: things like module.alias checking, alias overlaps, etc
User8: User11 exactly
User11: And sometimes, that's likely to require us to modify core code
User8: we already have a trivial module checker in feisty that makes sure we don't have modules go missing between builds
User8: User11 I don't think we have any patches in feisty like that...things we have to core code can either be synced upstream now, or if it's major, pushed to linux-ubuntu-modules
User8: toshiba_acpi is one I think might end up that way
User11: Well, strictly toshiba_acpi should be rewritten to generate input events
User8: but the likelyhood of that happening considering the acpi-event patch has been around over a year? :)
User11: Depends on how much spare time I have
User11: It's not likely to be merged in its current state
User8: yeah, I recall the lkml discussions about the current patch
User8: toshiba_acpi still has a bunch of stuff to be compatible with our own toshset package though
User13: or someone else could just fix it up...
User11: toshiba_acpi as it currently stands is a bit of a screaming nightmare
User11: And the old maintainer doesn't handle it any more
User11: I should just take over
User8: guess we should move on...
User8: feisty security/updates
User8: we already know what's in git
User8: are there any patches we knew of in lp right now that need to go into post-release feisty kernel?
User8: I know we need some more id's moved from ata_piix to piix
User8: bug #84603
User3: Malone bug 84603 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Hard disk I/O randomly freezes when hald is running and optical drive is empty" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84603
User7: the microsoft keyboard patch is one I can think of
User8: there's a workaround, so not critical for release
User9: I'm close to figuring out bug #103768
User3: Malone bug 103768 in linux-source-2.6.20 "softmac and network-manager cite unreconcilable differences" [Critical,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/103768
User10: tifm driver, moving from 0.7 to 0. again (reverted sometime last month)
User8: User9 don't forget ubuntu/net/wireless/wext-old.c ...it's the most likely area of the problem
User10: 0. -> 0.8
User9: User8 I'm leaving tracks all over it trying to figure out the race.
User8: User9 compare the code to what's in net/core/wireless.c
User8: might give some clues
User12: User8 the OCFS2 stuff please
User8: User10 did I revert that by mistake when I updated tifm/mmc?
User12: (for feisty)
User8: User12 In git, so queued
User10: User8 yes
User12: User8 cool
User8: User10 ok, shoot me later...can you prepare a diff to bring things back?
User10: User8 yes
User8: as of now, any patches proposed for feisty (other than embargoed security patches) should go through mariagarner@example.net
User8: I think that's all the main topics I had to discuss
User8: anyone have anything they want to bring up?
User8: Anyone have comments on the feisty kernel release, how the crisis was handled, addition suggestions for improvement, or suggestions for gutsy kernel, specs, etc...
User8: ?
User12: hmm i somehow have one...
User10: only, wondering it's normally like that at release time :)
User12: note that this is only my point of view..
User12: User10 no we have seen far worst at release time
User8: User10 usually not that bad...we always have a crisis, but never 5 in a row :)
User8: strictly speaking for the kernel side of things
User12: but i think now that the kernel team is growing, you should be able to handover stuff between members in a slightly easier way
User8: fabbione is right, we've had some bad release crisis before
User12: and in case of disasters like this one
User8: User12 that's on my personal agenda...handing off more of my responsibilities
User12: with a 4 people kernel team, you should be able to cover the 24h without issues
User12: User8 yeps.. i am just saying what i think i saw
User12: it's up to you guys how much you want to weight it
User12: i don't expect you to follow my directions ;)
User8: well, we can't cover 24hours since pkl sleeps late, kyle and I are both EST, and Tim is only 2 hours behind us :)
User12: User8 well that's where i want to go..
User8: plus tim wakes up early
User12: if there is a crisis, i think there is the option for people in the team to shift a few hours around
User12: and cover almost the 24h
User8: User12 might be a good idea for us to spread our during major milestones
User8: s/our/out/
User12: i know that 75% of kernel team is US based but most of the distro team is EU
User8: beta and RC seem like good points for that
User14: User10 I'm in the process of writing up a document/rant/whatever on past Ubuntu release panics
User12: that somehow clashes a bit when there are situations like this one
User12: in which we need to be more in sync than ever
User14: User10 mostly so that people experiencing it for the first time don't feel quite so much like the universe is collapsing
User12: User8 yeps.. just to have a Plan B crisis for when it's strictly required.
User12: User8 i am not saying you should be 24/7 always
User12: that would be an insane expectation
User8: User12 bad thing is, most of the team gets up after EU, and because of the flow, kernel team needs to fix things in order for EU folks to get things done(cd runs)
User8: so it gets bad for people like cjwatson and Mithrandir
User14: there was a case during this crisis where I ended up trying to hack up test kernels because nobody else was around and I couldn't find the current state
User14: I'd like that not to happen again
User14: (and mdz was desperate to get progress)
User8: User14 maybe a crisis center we can keep updated and concise for things like this
User8: s/crisis center/wiki page/
User12: User8 yes i do understand that.. nothing stops one of the kernel team to be part of the release process and be able to pre-build CD at the end of the US shift right before EU wakes up
User14: User8 lag between kernel team and CD team is several hours, so had it been the other end of the day it would have been OK
User8: User14 right
User14: it gets bad when you get stuff done around your early afternoon that needs to be pushed through urgently
User12: anyway it was just the way i felt it.. nobody should take it personal or feel bad because i know you have still done an amazing job
User8: we could definitely see about two kernel team members working more evening shifts to do things, and catch the EU folks before handing off to the other kernel team members
User10: There was a number of times I didn't know what had happen to the kernel overnight (after I'd gone to bed), but was being asked as I was the only kernel team member around.
User14: User10 yeah, in those cases I had a feeling you simply didn't have the information but had to ask
User8: we should do a better job of handing off info and state, for sure
User14: next time, I would like things to be arranged such that you do have the information
User8: post mortum will be a hot topics at UDS :)
User14: User12 it wouldn't hurt to have a session at UDS on rapid change management - how to get from kernel git commit to CDs as fast as possible
User8: generally, I'm hoping process changes for development cycle will reduce the crisis level altogether, but a good crisis policy is required
User14: perhaps informally
User12: User14 sounds like an idea.. it would also help for people to be more familiar with git
User12: as it is now it's only a very few of us
User9: kylem has offered to lead a git mariagarner@example.net.
User12: User9 yes i know.. it would be more interesting to see how many people will actually show up :)
User8: User14 what can we do about making it easier to get urgent kernel uploads into the buildd's faster?
User12: git == kernel in some people mind and kernel == evil
User14: User8 speaking of distributing responsibilities, would it be possible to distribute the task of preparing feisty bits for upstream merge and setting up the gutsy tree?
User8: User14 yes, we discussed that at the beginning
User14: User8 even if it's really only a one-person task, I think that would be useful to increase the team's familiarity with what we've changed versus upstream
User14: ok
User14: I read through but I guess I missed that you were distributing it
User8: however gutsy tree will be new build system, so it's going to be in flux for a couple weeks
User8: I think I can push off the upstream merge entirely to someone else, if anyone is interested
User12: User8 i strongly reccomends to get a gutsy upload for toolchain soonish and change the build system immediatly after
User14: User8 urgent kernel uploads> I think that really comes under Soyuz improvements, which will hopefully be a bit easier now that we have two Soyuz hackers again
User12: User8 or at least coordinate that with doko
User8: User12 how about I just get you a linux-libc-dev upload out of the tree, no kernel images
User14: significant publisher speed improvements are due to land with PPA
User12: User8 it's an option.. but talk to doko to make sure it's ok with him
User12: User8 glibc should be fine with the current running kernels on the buildd.. i am not sure about all arches tho
User8: User14 do you think ppa will be a good alternative to the way we were doing things with test kernels (build locally, upload to rookery)?
User15: User8 I would appreate it if the kernel headers could stay stable until new glibc/binutils/gcc are in the archive.
User15: s/appreate/appreciate/
User8: User15 so you don't want me to upload anything yet?
User14: User8 I think the immediate intention is more for things that aren't speed-critical
User14: it'll build from scratch every time, so it isn't going to get near the performance of a ccached incremental build
User15: User8 well, the current toolchain updates are tested; and it's likely that headers break on some architecture. AFAIK the archive isn't open yet.
User12: User15 aren't we supposed to bootstrap the toolchain starting from kernel headers? or do you want to change that later?
User8: User14 maybe a dedicated machine for this sort of thing would be nice...I'm not sure the whole team can do fast build/upload cycles like we were doing
User12: User15 ok
User14: (PPA => Personal Package Archives, basically per-person apt archives with uploaders and such attached implemented in Launchpad)
User15: User12 we never did a full bootstrap; I did put that on the UDS agenda
User14: User8 let's talk about this more on the phone in a bit, but one idea would be to ensure that each of you has access to the others' fast personal build machines
User8: User15 Catch be out-of-band for more discussion, I want to make sure I'm not blocking you
User8: User14 ok
User8: we're just about out of time
User14: datacentre hosting is good for most of the distro team, but for kernel development having the box locally is pretty valuable
User8: any last minute comments?
User12: LOVE YA!
User8: kylem, pkl, User9 Congrats on your guys first release cycle nearly at an end...I know it was rough, but everyone did a great job
User8: User12 DITTO!
User8: have a good week everyone, party on Thursday
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Apr 20:00 UTC: Community Council | 18 Apr 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:00 UTC: Development Team | 24 Apr 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 25 Apr 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 20:00 UTC: MOTU
User5: hi
User16: hi ranf, you're early
User5: Seveas, yea I know, get a better seat that way
User17: @schedule New_York
User3: Schedule for America/New_York: 17 Apr 16:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 16:00: MOTU
User5: @schedule Mars
User5: @schedule berlien
User5: @schedule berlin
User3: Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 17 Apr 22:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 17:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 22:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 22:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 22:00: MOTU
User18: Mars ?
User5: corner case test
User18: Seveas, thats a serious bug ... we dont have Mars TZs
* ogra checks if his personal TZ exists
User18: @schedule atlantis
User18: bah
User16: ranf, gt it added to pytz and ubotu supports it :p
User5: @schedule posixrules
User3: Schedule for posixrules: 17 Apr 16:00: Community Council | 18 Apr 08:00: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 11:00: Development Team | 24 Apr 16:00: Technical Board | 25 Apr 16:00: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 16:00: MOTU
User5: Seveas, pytz is a package?
User16: !info python-tz
User3: python-tz: Python version of the Olson timezone database. In component main, is extra. Version 2006g-1 (edgy), package size 181 kB, installed size 3420 kB
User5: k
User16: emonkey, dude, adding yourself one hour before the meeting is annoying...
User19: User16 the meeting is in one hour?
User16: better be prepared ;)
User16: @now
User3: Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 18:51:44 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 8 minutes
User16: sacater, 8 minutes more ;)
User19: :P
User19: are you going to be doing the membership thing
User19: :o
User16: depends on what you mean with 'doing the membership thing'
User16: I'll be poking at buttons in launchpad
User20: Seveas, sorry, if it's better I can do it the next time
User20: no worry for me
User16: emonkey, no, it's perfctly fine. It just means CC people can never be completely prepared when they come to the meting
User16: emonkey, but I'm pretty sure your membership application will be dealt with quickly :)
User19: :o
* sacater is here for membership
User21: Seveas, what do you think about to froze the agenda site a few days befor the meeting?
User20: I hope I can answer in reasonable time, unfortunately my english isn't the best
User16: juliux, I've been thinking about that
* kkubasik is here for membership as well ;)
User20: I'm a bit slow
User21: Seveas, i personal don't check the agenda site every day, so it would be better if the topics are three or four days bevor the meeting fix
User19: User16 shall i start bringing my 'fanclub' in
* welp is already 'in'
User19: ywp
User19: i can see
User21: Seveas, should i add this to the topic for today;)
User21: s/topic/agenda
User16: juliux, neh
User21: Seveas, just joking;)
User18: wow, busy pre-meeting noise in here :)
User19: oh yes
User21: ogra, europe is now utc+2 and not +1 ;)
User16: ogra, an hour of it ;)
User16: @time
User3: Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 18:59:41 - Next meeting: Community Council in 1 hour 0 minutes
User18: heh
User16: emonkey, you didn't document your ubuntu contributions on your wikipage
User16: emonkey, you *must* do that before applying otherwise the meetings will take far too long
User16: (same goes for a few other candidates for today, but they are not here yet)
* ScottK is here (just in case you meant me).
User22: cept me :)
User16: ScottK, I didn't :)
User23: Great.  Thanks.
* bkingx is here for membership
User22: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinKubasik
User22: im assuming that part comes later, but yeah
User16: bkingx, are there other kentucky members here to cheer for you?
User16: kkubasik, this is just my pre-meeting check :)
User22: haha, sounds good ;)
User24: User16 etank and Zuph are here
User22: I can imagine that these aren't always the fastest things
User16: bkingx, good
User16: kkubasik, they tend to take long if people come unprepared (like emonkey)
User22: yeah
User24: User16 I am expecting atopance and possibly Vorian as well
User16: bkingx, that's quite a fanclub
User16: good!
User25: yay bkingx
* kkubasik is a lonely loser :(
User22: ;)
User24: ;)
User26: yay kkubasik
User22: hhehe weee!!!!
User27: My neck hurts.
User19: User16 want to perform a pre-meeting check on me?
User16: sacater, already did. You documented things :)
User16: COuld be fleshed out a bit, but should probably do
User16: (Not saying anything about the quality of contributions here, just the documnting bit)
User19: User16 i dont do documenting....
User19: i do support tracking mainly
User19: tiny bit of packaging...
User28: User19 I presume he means wiki entry etc
User16: sacater, documenting your contributions I mean ;)
User19: and a few bug reports
User19: oh
User19: okies
User19: btw, take a look at this before the meeting, should make you laugh if you like stand-up comedy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OUykE3Uvb0&NR=1
User19: makes me smile :P
User29: morning all ;-)
User19: User29 ello
User16: yeager, are you serious?
User16: adding yourself 40 minutes before meeting and not having anything on your wikipage
User16: Please come prepared!
User30: User16 i'm editing my wiki page now
User19: User30 took me a day or 2 to prepare my mine
User19: im 14, my mind is limited...
User16: yeager, you could give the people on the CC some time to prepare for the meeting instead of last-minute rushing
User21: Seveas, pls let me add "shoudl the cc agend be frozen 4 days befor the meeting?" to the agend for today
User27: yeager has a hell of a lot of karma
User16: juliux, yeah....
User16: let's do that
User16: somerville32, that doesn't matter: unprepared is unprepared
User28: do those on the CC even read before the meeting starts? ;)
User27: User16 Just making an observation ;]
User16: apokryphos, some of them do
User16: and I like to b prepared as well
User29: I think I added myself 5 minutes before the meeting when I was approved though :-P
User30: updated my wiki page now
User21: somerville32, did you check every day the meeting agend? i check the agenda somedays befor the meeting and then i deciced if i will join the meeting or not
User16: yeager, that page still says nothing
User27: juliux, I'm subscribed to the page. I  get notified everytime someone edits it.
User29: User30 you forgot ubuntu-nordic, and that you are the one doing most of the Swedish translations in both Ubuntu and Debian.
User21: somerville32, hm ok, i stoped subscribing every wikipage and mailinglist
User16: yeager, take a look at for instance brian kings page, or micah cowans....
User28: User27 a lot of extra time? :P
User29: User30 and that you've been giving support in the swedish channel since ages :-)
User27: apokryphos, Indeed! Did you expect me to get back to work quickly after spending two months in the hospital? lol :P
User28: User27 how've you been?
User27: apokryphos, I think I'm doin' a lot better but only time will tell, I guess. : )
User28: cool =)
User30: User29 i don't know how much information I should put on that page.. i'm just a poor translator :)
User16: somerville32, what do you mean with your agenda item?
User22: User30 just say for who and stuff
User28: User30 you can get an idea by looking at others' pages
User29: User30 EVERYTHING! ;-)
User29: User30 reporting bugs, running development versions... :-)
User27: User16 sabdfl asked me to work with salgado to ensure that lp infrastructure was in place for the CC vote.
User16: somerville32, aight
* micahcowan started working on his wiki page the moment he thought he might someday apply for membership (otherwise, it'd be hell to try to remember everything)
User31: i'm thinking of applying for membership
User16: micahcowan, you've been doing things for ages, about time you applied :)
User31: Dont think I've done enough though
User32: Seveas, have I? :)  ...I never really knew how much was "enough", and wanted to be on the safe side.
User16: micahcowan, that's the good approach at this, makes our lif much easier
User29: User32 like me then :-)
User32: :)
User29: I don't even remember when I applied :-P
User16: Nafallo, btw: make sure you put your cheers on yeagers wikipage :)
User29: User16 oh? on the wiki those days? :-)
User16: Nafallo, it helps
User29: User16 glad you told me :-)
User16: Nafallo, and it provides some page filling for him ;)
User33: Hi there
User29: User16 hehe :-)
User30: seriously need a smoke..
User16: 'Translation karma: insane' should be enough for membership, but propely documented is better
User29: User30 then I grab your wiki... ;-)
User32: heh
User29: User16 lol
User32: Oh, holy &!*, that /is/ a huluvalot of karma.
User29: I need my Ubuntu password :-P
User16: micahcowan, it is
User22: I guess I have bug-triage-ing karma
User33: Is Mark here?
User33: 8o)
User22: ;)
User29: I hope my other PC likes me today, since it's in an encrypted file :-P
User16: Devaux, not yet
* Seveas sends Bruce Schneier to Nafallo's aid
* micahcowan thinks yeager found the "epic launchpad activity of +32k karma"
User29: User16 the PC won't even start :-P
User32: jk :)
User16: Nafallo, :p
User5: I've lost a bunch of karma points. Dunno where they hide.
User22: they expire with time
User16: ranf, a karma of 70 is not too impressive
User5: kkubasik, must be smth. new then?
User22: I wanna say half-lifed, just because it would be cool and fun
User21: Seveas, better then nothing;)
User32: ranf, the scale has changed /drastically/, from time to time, too. I think mine used to be a lot closer to yeager's at one point (but his would've registered as a couple mil, then, if I'm even right that the scale was like that)
User16: juliux, true
User21: Seveas, and karam is unfair there is no karma for no tech things
User22: User5 ? I don't follow
User16: juliux, are you going to cheer for rang for his ubuntu-de contributions?
User16: juliux, that's why we want properly documented contributions and look at all of them
User32: Yeah, it's a little sad to break my butt with gdb and submit a debdiff, and see the karma go up by a pretty dang small amount :)
User21: Seveas, no i wasn't it
User16: juliux, too bad, he needs some cheerleaders
* micahcowan does 2
User30: my karma was 10M+ last year (before the reset)
User19: @time
User3: Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 19:40:26 - Next meeting: Community Council in 19 minutes
User19: good..
User34: sacater, you getting jumpy?
User33: Where can I buy this ehm... karma? :)
User22: eh, I like that it decreeases, it doesn't make new members feel alientated and unable to help
User16: yeager, same here ;)
User30: User16 :)
User19: User34 oh yes....
User34: wb sacater
User32: Q: why does communitycouncil have like 4 members, almost(?) none of whom are here?
User19: yeh
User19: thats the sort of stupid thing i DONT want to do in here :OP
User16: micahcowan, A: because launchpad misses parts to support the vote for a new council
User32: to be added RSN?
User16: NOTE FOR ALL MEMBER CANDIDATES: open a text editor and prepare a three-line introduction
User16: so you can paste that when I call you
User19: waht...
User19: 3 lines
User19: i did 25
User19: aw..... fudgecake....
User16: sacater, that's good for a wiki
User16: irc is for shorter texts :)
User16: 3 lines may be a bit short, but please no more than 10
User19: ok
User19: let me cut it down
User32: sacater, me too :)
User32: 3 lines in an editor may == 10 lines in IRC, depending on configuration...
User21: micahcowan, line == 70characters
User19: dagnabit!
User35: User19 use vim and do :set textwidth=70
User35: ;)
User35: vim++
User19: User35 too late
User32: welp, yeah, but won't that also introduce linebreaks that may interfere with actual IRC client widths? I just resized my gvim to 72 columns. :)
User35: tsk.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Apr 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Apr 15:00 UTC: Development Team | 24 Apr 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 25 Apr 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 26 Apr 20:00 UTC: MOTU
User32: what?
User32: :)
User16: T minus (10 + CC delay) minutes
User19: are we active?
User19: @time
User3: Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 19:50:39 - Current meeting: Community Council
User36: User16 oh you pessimist :)
User5: boah 6 min before
User37: MikeB-: howdy.
User21: first rule for all member candidates be patient;)
User21: hey LaserJock
User20: k
User32: LaserJock! :)
User19: LaserJock is sponsering me
User19: i think :P
User19: .......and he cant even spell sponsor...
User37: MikeB-: when are you up for the CC? or did i miss it?
User16: atoponce, MikeB-: launchpad lacks supporting things
User37: User16 so, it's a launchpad thing that we're waiting on, then?
User38: hi
User16: atoponce, afaik
User37: ok. cool
User19: User16 time to go?
User37: Tue Apr 17 19:55:47 UTC 2007
User16: sacater, when the CC arrives
User39: @now bermuda
User3: Current time in Atlantic/Bermuda: April 17 2007, 16:56:02 - Current meeting: Community Council
User19: lucky, its 9pm here
User37: MikeB-: let me know when you hear something
User37: User16 you too. :)
User21: sacater, be patient we have to wait for the cc ;)
User25: User16 should a LoCo team that is up for approval have some text prepared to paste about the team?
User19: User21 :O
User16: etank, preferably
User37: MikeB-: wouldn't miss it. you?
User16: etank, but the wikipage is more important :)
User16: Ekushey, please document your ubuntu contrbutions properly before applying for membership. Currently your wikipage has *no* information at all
User37: cool
User16: hi elmo
User40: Seveas, okay
User37: MikeB-: are you out of the country?
User21: hi elmo
User16: Ekushey, if you think you can document it all in an hour, please do so. Otherwise consider applying next time and I'll help you with the wikipage if you want
User37: MikeB-: ahh. for uds?
* atoponce is jealous
User41: MikeB-, cutting it close :)
* atoponce will be at ubuntu live, though
User42: @now
User3: Current time in Etc/UTC: April 17 2007, 20:01:27 - Current meeting: Community Council
User43: hi seveas, juliux
User37: MikeB-: how do i go about that? should i pm you after the meet for details?
User37: MikeB-: will do
User37: User41 ?
User41: atoponce, that gives a link with details doesn't it?
* atoponce looks
User16: elmo, do you know if sabdfl is around-ish?
User19: has the meeting started, my ubuntu-server synced clock says yes
User37: Tue Apr 17 20:05:56 UTC 2007
User16: sacater, the CC is a bit out of sync
User19: ok
User44: alrihgt
* mako is here
User19: i will wait :P
User29: morning mako :-)
User45: MikeB-: any particular tips as to how to apply for sponsorship?
User16: mako, excellent, now we only need our sabdfl and some guacamole, and we have a par-tay
User45: (evenin')
User29: haha
User44: i am going to need to disappear in 80 minutes at least temporarily
User44: i need to go mail my taxes before the post office closes :)
User16: mako, taxes, schmaxes ;)
User19: :o
User16: how long will you be gone approximately?
User36: User44 isnt the deadline the 15th in the US? :)
User30: mail the taxes? not sending them digitally signed? :)
User39: Seveas, its schmaxes they give you if you don't give them taxes
User44: User30 i'm actually filing an extension :)
User46: User36 15th was on a sunday so they give you a couple of days
User46: i think deadline is tonight
* OgMaciel just did his taxes last night
User37: User45 i'm going to email him. i'll cc: you on the message
User45: User37 email sabdfl?
User47: I managed to get mine sent last week
User37: User45 MikeB-
User45: ah
User45: :)
User43: User16 I SMSed him
User45: gah, I'm probably going to crash - can't imagine staying up for the entire meeting.
User43: (before the meeting started)
User48: evening all
User46: evening sabdfl
User16: hi sabdfl
User21: evening sabdfl
User16: let's get started!
User22: evening
User16: sabdfl, you're first on the agenda with the Trademark policy - so if you're ready: go for it!
User33: Hi Mr. Shuttleworth
User48: thanks seveas
User27: sabdfl, \o_
User48: we are getting a much greater volume of requests regarding the trademarks
User48: User16 coudl you paste a url for folks to review the proposed policy?
User16: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DraftTrademarkPolicy2007
User48: canonical owns the trademarks, and we want a policy that enhances their value to canonical as well as the community
User48: being mindful of the firefox debate, we've put these guidelines together
User48: i'm very interested in feedback from the CC and from folks at this meeting
User48: /end
User22: I think its generous
User22: surprisingly so, not to say I think everyone is mean
User16: sabdfl, I like the 'Remix' part of it
User22: but its big risk to let anyone use the name
* ScottK has read it and thinks it does a good job of balancing Canonical's commercial interests and those of the larger community.  It is generous to the community, but I think that's reasonable given the community's value to Ubuntu.
User36: it has very good balance :)
User48: thanks Seveas, we're trying to encourage people to do fun and useful things with ubuntu
User37: i'm looking forward to whatever is decided, as i plan on using them as decals on my car, as i'm sure sabdfl saw in my email
User16: sabdfl, but I have a tricky question for you already: does the name ubotu (our beloved irc bot) become a problematic name?
User21: sabdfl, what happens if a locoteam produce with a local bookshop some dvds? did they have to ask or not?
User48: and give them the freedom to call it "ubuntu" if it preserves the spirit of the project
* gnomefreak agrees with ScottK
User36: User16 its non commercial isnt it? :p
User16: mc44, read the policy, there's more to it than noncommercial
User36: User16 I know, I was just checking that it was :)
User48: User16 i think the association is subtle enough that you have free reign there :-)
User44: User22 we *want* people to use the name because we want to them to talk about ubuntu, build communities around ubuntu, do stuff that helps makes ubuntu a recognizable brand
User39: sabdfl, I think I see an error wrt intent, how do you want that addressed as a pm or here?
User48: User21 if the DVD's are the same ISO, then no need to ask
User22: oh no, I love that component, and I'm glad the decision was made to be this open about it
User21: sabdfl, ok also if the bookshop also sell the dvd?
User48: if they are modified, but the loco team still wants to call it "ubuntu" then it depends
User48: if the only modification is package selection / deselection, then i don't think they need to ask
User48: if they are modifying packages, then they do
User22: its just I felt that mozilla was completely in the right, and ubuntu would have been too
User22: had it come to that
User48: User39 here
User21: MikeB-, that is why i am asking;)
User48: we don't mind if people print ubuntu cd's or dvd's and charge whatever they like for them
User21: sabdfl, sounds good and fair
User39: sabdfl, so, the section that says: Use in combination with any product or service which is presented as being Certified or Official or formally associated with us or our products or services. may actually want to state, "unless authorised by the trademark holder" however this could also be placed in the phrasing of the introduction to that section
User45: sabdfl, juliux - it sounds Free ;)
User21: jenda, you are right
User48: User39 yes, it does seem odd to rule out authorised use in that case
User29: looks pretty good. seems I might want to look up some Swedish pages and companys though.
User39: sabdfl, while I concur that the next section deals with commerical, it may be the case that it should be placed above prohibitions
User44: in general, i'm happy with the current draft
User39: sabdfl, then it "feels" better
User42: hi i'm from ubuntu-ni and we plan a distro based on ubuntu, the modification is on package selection and some artwork additional,  with this policy we must use Remix on the name of the distro ?
User44: in general, i think people misunderstand tradmark a little bit
User48: User42 if you want to use "Ubuntu", then you'll need "Remix"
User48: so it's clear to people
User44: i think they think it covers using the name in any situation, when in reality, it should only cover using the name to imply endorsement
User44: so if someone wanted to write an article about how they feel ubuntu sucks, that isn't a trademark issue
User36: User44 I had a small point about that relating to the poilicy
* sabdfl is a fan of sucksdomains
User44: exactly
User36: User44 it would be nice if the forbidden section acknowledges that fact
User44: right..
User36: because currently it covers all domain names
User48: User39 i'll raise the question of authorised use, and the sequence of the sections
User44: it only becomes a problem when the websites is designed to look like UBUNTU itself is talking about how it sucks
User31: What about a distro called foobuntu(hypothetical), would we have to get special permission for that?
User48: User44 can you propose some language that makes that clear?
User36: User44 right but in the policy it says any commercial use or disparging use. is it possible to put something like "exccept where allowed by fair use"
User44: User48 yeah, right now?
User44: i might actually have some around
User42: we thinking in use NicaUbuntu, but with the new policy that name, we need ask permission to Ubuntu
User48: User31 yes, that would fall into this framework
User32: mako, isn't that (potentially) parody (protected)?
User48: User44 or by mail to CC / me
User48: / jane
* micahcowan is lurker
User47: User48 will this become retroactive? i.e. will existing derivatives, etc. be asked to fall in line with this policy?
User48: we should certainly protect parody explicitly, because it is not protected in all jurisdictions
User48: User47 yes
User36: User48 thank you!
User32: I was wondering about that...
User48: though where there are issues, we would take time to resolve them graciously
* mc44 goes to register ubuntusucks.com
User36: damn too late
User16: mc44, guess where it redirects to :p
* sabdfl waits for the penny to drop
User48: ;-)
User36: User48 I have hyphens in my arsenal :p
User48: lay on macduff
User48: i don't mind a sucks domain or three
User39: sabdfl, should I take it that the (TM) question policy will get a second airing or it this is its big day out?
User29: hmm
User48: make good use of it!
User48: we should redirect it to bugs.lp.net/ubuntu
User36: haha
User47: lol
User29: isonaming has to have "remix" in the name to? :-)
User2: sabdfl, +1 , heh
User16: could we please focus on the topic at hand, we have quite a long agenda
User48: ok, so salient comments so far:
User48: - ompaul re authorised use for official entities, like "official ubuntu magazine" etc
User48: - mako re the difference between commentary / fair use and endorsement
User49: Hi guys. I have had several emails back and forth with Mark and Jane about Canonical officially protecting "Ubuntu Studio" Jane said she would start the process. Is there anything more we should do? As a project? Also we wanted to Copyright packages we've done as Ubuntu Studio but there seems to be issue with that currently.
User48: jane came back to me and said we did not need to protect it, as the existing Ubuntu trademark covers it
User44: User48 ok..
User44: The Ubuntu trademarks are designed to cover use of a mark to imply origin or endorsement by the project. When a user downloads something called Ubuntu, they should know it comes from the Ubuntu project. This helps Ubuntu build a reputation that will not be damaged by confusion around what is, and isn't, Ubuntu.
User44: Using the trademarks in ways that do unequivacoable do not imply endorsement or provide any room for improvement is always permissable.  Anyone is free to write articles, create websites, about, or talk about Ubuntu -- as long as it's clear to everyone -- including people completely unfamiliar with Ubuntu -- that they are simply talking *about* Ubuntu and in no way *for* Ubuntu.
User44: or something to that effect
User48: User49 nobody else can call their stuff "Ubuntu Studio", since we've already ack'd your use of it
User44: i'm afraid that people might get the wrong idea, especially from the "forbidden" section
User16: mako, sounds sane to me
User44: which is essentially a "don't even ask" section
User22: is ubuntu studio a completely communuty driven project with no offical backing?
User48: we have a don't-even-ask section, i could add it there
User49: User48 Ok. So currently we do "Copyright Canonical On the website/forum. Is that correct?
User44: User48 yeah, i was wondering if we think it would be better at the top or hte don't even ask
User44: is it ok to edit this?
User39: sabdfl, there is one thing missing, a "if we feel you did us wrong section we reserve the right to request a takedown"
User44: or should i prose it to the cc and jane?
User48: User49 yes
User49: k
User44: User39 that's unnecessary IMHO
User44: User39 we don't need to wave around sticks here
User48: User44 let me make an edit, then i'll past the diff url
User32: Should there be explicit mention of use of the mark in completely unrelated contexts (a l that one advertisement that hit digg recently)? (And, is it okay for me to be interjecting like this?)
User21: i read the trademarkpolicy know a second time, but there is something not clear for me, if we as a locoteam make shirts like http://ubuntu.juliux.de/shirt/polo.jpg did we have to add a tradmark on the shirt?
User44: User21 i think you'd just be asked to send an email
User21: mako, i will write an mail because this is more difficult situation
User21: mako,
User44: User21 send it to the CC
User27: Speaking of Xubuntu, Xubuntu is almost never mentioned on trademark notices (such as on the website  and certain press releases).
User48: MikeB-: i believe "buntu" is covered, globally
User21: i am very happy to have this trademark policy
User27: I agree. Long overdue.
User48: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DraftTrademarkPolicy2007?action=diff
User48: i'll pass that back to Canonical, along with ompaul's comments
User48: thanks all for your comments
User45: I might have one more
User39: yw
User45: "there is no commercial intent behind the use"
User45: What type of behaviour violates that particular rule (considering it's in the 'community advocacy' section?)
User45: Does that mean, for example, taht people can't make say, mugs or t-shirts with the Ubuntu logo with one of the goals being raising funds?
User48: they can, they just need a trademark license
User50: hello
User2: i would have hoped ad's on the forums ( for non-logged in users ) on the forums would be considered commercial ( that havent come down yet btw ) ...
User48: i see no reason why we wouldn't let a loco team do that
User48: however, we would have an issue with a company doing that, on an industrial scale
User29: isn't that already Community Advocacy?
User16: I'd say so
User45: User48 how about an individual doing it (partly) for personal gain?
User45: I've been encouraging people to do that till now
User48: User45 best to bounce that past trademarks@
User45: good
User44: awesome
User48: User2 good point
User48: ok, thanks all!
User48: what's up next, seveas?
User45: so, it's basically _not_allowed_, but might be allowed on individual cases by community members...
User16: somerville32,
User45: (err, _to_ community members)
User16: he has somthing to say about CC voting
User16: somerville32, you still with us?
User27: Seveas, Yup, sorry, was just eatting some pizza <g>
User16: heh
User16: so, what's up with 'CC Nominee Confirmation Vote 2007'?
User27: I've spoken with sabdfl regarding the CC Nominee Confirmation Vote on March 30th
User16: excellent, how's that coming along?
User27: After speaking with salgado and sabdfl, it appears, based off of sabdfl's description of the desired voting model, that the launchpad infrastructure required to conduct the vote is already implemented and that a vote can occur.
User48: well, i suck, for one
User48: i've been slow to get this done, my apologies!
User16: sabdfl, expect some slapping at UDS ;)
User48: originally i wanted to have a richer voting system, with a race between n people for n-m seats
User48: but instead, we will just have n confirmation votes
User46: Seveas mako sabdfl i have to run for a while. I would like to say that apokryphos is a great asset to the ubuntu community and i think he is a great canidate for membership. Thank you :)
User48: thanks gnomefreak
User51: User16 I'm sure we can find something to mariagarner@example.net..
User16: gnomefreak, noted
User46: ty and yw
User16: sabdfl, so per candidate we can say +1/0/-1 ?
User48: yes
User48: your membership in action!
* apokryphos slips $5 to gnomefreak 8)
User36: User48 is there a list of candidates yet?
User46: ;)
User22: ;)
* somerville32 nods.
User48: User36 yes
User47: User28 only $5? memberships are coming cheap these days ;-)
User48: y daniel holbach
User48: y matthew east
User48: y mike basinger
User48: y corey burger
User48: y jerome gotangco
User48: iirc
User48: i will be happy to see us span more timezones
User29: User48 no sabdfl? :-)
User16: sabdfl, being admin for the team I should be able to create the votes. Want me to go ahead with that?
User16: Nafallo, sabdfl/elmo/mako will stay on board :)
User48: User16 yeah!
User29: *puuh*
* somerville32 cheers!
User36: User48 no jono?
User44: User36 not this time
User28: User47 heh, yup :)
User36: okkk
User48: User36 jono's just a newbie round here!
User48: ;-)
User36: :)
User2: lol
User29: hehe
User48: good candidate for a future round
User16: sabdfl, ok, voting will commence soon then if I get it right -- last time I tried to set up a vote it went bizarrely wrong :)
User48: he's doing omazing work
User27: Seveas, The staging server is available to test
User48: User16 ok, so it's 5 separate votes, each with yes/no options
User16: somerville32, excellent idea
User52: User16 was this list created by the CC or a poll?
User16: sabdfl, no 'blank vote'?
User48: when's a good starting date?
User27: sabdfl, How long will the vote be open?
User16: OgMaciel, by sabdfl
User16: sabdfl, feisty release?
User36: User16 for how many seats? one?
User52: User48 I'd like to be considered
User48: User16 i think a blank vote only makes sense in cases where you are choosing between n candidates, and want a "none of the above" vote. in this case, the "no" vote is the blank one in each case
User16: sabdfl, I'd say: feisty release until the start or end of uds
User52: obvisouly I realize it is sudden but I didn't know about it until now
User43: User16 (sabdfl in consultation with the CC to be fair/pedantic)
User48: User16 lets make it from monday, for 2 weeks?
User16: sabdfl, sounds good
User48: will only just catch the first day of UDS
User36: User48 sorry, i may have missed it, but this is for how many open seats - just the one?
User48: no, all 5 are up for consideration
User48: if a majority of voters in each case say "aye", they all get on
User32: n=m :)
User29: User16 middle. so people can celebrate :-)
User48: no, m=0 ;-)
* ajmitch imagines that plenty of people will just say yes to all
User48: User16 if we make it from Monday, for 15 days, then it gives us more time at UDS
* kkubasik is one of those
User36: User51 should be easier getting a quorum then :p
User48: this is the ubuntu members chance to veto, basically
User32: m  [0,n]  ?
User21: perhaps we can send a reminder to everybody, so he know about the vote
User16: juliux, of course
User48: in future, we may have more complex races, where we have more candidates than seats
User44: User48 it's fine to not catch UDS, maybe better :)
User51: User48 was it the TB that you wanted 3 of 5?
User36: User48 and campaign finance reform! ;)
User48: User51 i think it would be good in any race
User48: the only issue is, platforms and competition don't suit everyone, and i don't want always to end up with the most vocal candidates, necessarily
User48: so it's nice to be able to nominate someone, who just has to pass a general community up/down
User48: we want the best overall mix of perspectives and skills on both bodies
User48: and same on Motu Council and Forums Council too...
User53: good evening Ubunteros
User51: morning highvoltage
User16: sabdfl, don't forget the IRC council :)
User21: good evening highvoltage
User48: that august body, too :-)
User44: fine, all of the councils :)
User48: ok, thanks for setting things up seveas
User48: next?
* somerville32 coughs.
User16: ok, let's move on!
User16: locoteams, etank
User25: Hi everyone. The Kentucky Team was started on 1/12/07. We started with 3 members and have since grown to 54 (about 20 of which are active on a regular basis). We are having an Install Fest and Release Party this weekend. We have started a partnership with the UKLUG and LPLUG in the Lexington area. We are also in the process of starting a charity project. We are also working on ways to offer local support to new / existing users.
User25: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KentuckyTeam/ApprovalApplication
User16: somerville32, THANKS!
User48: hi etank
User25: hi sabdfl
User25: we have some team members here to cheer us on and one of which is also on for membership today
User37: ahh. the kentucky team... solid loco, impressive progress, and great strength. etank and bkingx have done fabulous work getting this team up and running
User25: thanks atoponce
User48: ubuntu-ky forums look pretty active too - is the community more mailing list or forums oriented?
User24: ty atoponce
User25: forums and irc
User25: we use the mailing list mainly for meeting reminders
User37: the us teams project needs more people like etank and bkingx getting their loco teams up and running.
User2: are we doing memberships today? sorry but I have to run soon ( ~5 minutes ) and just wanted to place my +1 for sacater's ubuntu membership , he will make a good addition to the community and is workin twords MOTUship someday ( not yet ), he has been active ~3 months iirc on irc and seems to be a solid contributior almost daily, anyhow if someone could bring up my +1 when the time is correct please.
User48: User25 what sort of reaction have you had from libraries?
User16: imbrandon, thanks
User25: the team hopes to one day be in a position to mentor other teams the way that Utah and Ohio have helped us
User19: User2 thanks :D
User27: I have to run too. +1 for apokryphos and ScottK for membership. :) ttyl  everyone
User25: we have not hit the libraries yet
User48: thanks imbrandon
User25: we have started talking to schools though
User19: User35 wanna add your +1 for me?
User16: sacater, not now
User25: trying to get them to let us set up half of the labs with Ubuntu
User48: ok. libraries are sometimes concerned about responsibility for software installed by people who got it from them
User19: User35 not now ;P
User48: this all looks tight and well-run to me
User48: who are the ringleaders?
User25: thank you
User25: binkx, venemous and myself
User24: Thank for the library hint, sabdfl !
User25: we are the original 3 that got it started
User44: yeah, i tlooks like you're doing lots of great works
User48: ok, i'm +1 on this one
User48: great work so far
User25: i mean bkingx
User43: +1
User44: yes, definitely a +1 from me as well
User44: keep up the good work
User16: congratz!
User25: thank you
User24: Thank you!!
User37: User25 User24 congrats
User29: yay!
User24: Much work to be done!
User25: awesome!!
User53: etank, User24 congrats and welcome :)
User16: sacater will now jump the queue, he will have to go soon
User54: Great work etank bkingx !
User16: sacater, please paste your intro
User19: ok
User19: ==Very Short Description about me==
User19: Hi, I am Sam Cater, otherwise known as sacater or sacatermeister. I am 14 years old and live in Ipswich, Suffolk, GB. I have signed the Code of Conduct with gpg and I am an ubuntero
User19: I was first introduced to Ubuntu/Linux by welp (Peter Weller), a gentoo developer.
User19: I have been helping in the community properly for about 4 months.
User19: I use nothing but ubuntu
* welp waves
User19: I have contributed to ubuntu in a few different ways. I spend all my spare time in #ubuntu and #ubuntu-motu. Both helping out and learning whenever and wherever I can. I even got +u status on freenode.net, as I am eager to help in so many different aspects of Ubuntu. I always follow the Code of Conduct when I help others.
User19: A good chunk of my work is answering questions in launchpad, I always try to answer questions as fully as possible, its good to see a star next to your answer :P
User19: I also try and do my bit in Bug triaging and reporting.
User19: welp is vouching me
* sacater waves back
User51: very short? :)
User19: :P
User32: 10 lines? :)
User19: maybe...
User19: :D
User39: wc crashed
User35: User19 cat <intofilename> | wc -l
User35: ;)
User32: int overflow? :D
User29: +u?
User19: User35 later
User35: hahaha
User19: User29 yes
User16: ompaul, grab a mop and bucket then, and probably a gasmask
User29: User19 what's that? :-)
User19: User29 means rather than standard 21 freenode channel limit, i get 125
User29: ah :-)
User19: im on 53 i think
User19: User16 what next?
User16: sacater, wait.
User19: :o
User53: I'm quite jealous. I wish I could use Ubuntu when I was 14!
User19: okies
User19: User53 :S
User16: the CC members are now reading your wikipage and investigating you
User19: :o
User19: egads!
User19: :P
User16: highvoltage, same here
User16: at the age of 14 I used dos 3.21
User43: User19 you have SATs?
User19: oh yes
User19: 3 weeks time
User43: they actually call them that in the UK now?
User19: my contributions may get dotted over that time due to revision
User19: User43 yes
User43: god, I feel so old
User4: elmo, same here
User19: ill contribute all i can though!
User41: sacater, sats don't mean anything ;)
User21: highvoltage,  i get my first linux with 16:(
User19: User41 :o
User19: User41 they determine gcse ability
User41: Just don't tell your teachers I told you ;)
User35: User19 it's true... SATs really do not mean anything
User35: s/anything/much
User35: ;)
User19: i think we have strayed off topic....
User19: :P
User48: User19 excellent work in the Ubuntu Q&A secion
User48: https://launchpad.net/~sacater
User19: User48 thank you, thank you very much...
User19: :D
User44: is there anyone here to vouch for you?
User19: oh yes
User19: WELP!
User19: come hither
User4: sacater, you're looking very active (keep it up)
User19: User47
User19: come hither also :P
User35: yes?
User19: User2 if you are still here...
User39: mako, I have seen him being helpful in #ubuntu on a regular basis
User48: imbrandon spoke earlier on sacater's behalf
User35: User44 what am i supposed to say? ;)
User19: User35 that, as a gentoo dev, you think i am good
* ajmitch has seen him in #ubuntu-motu on a regular basis also :)
User19: User35 simple
User16: ...just wanted to place my +1 for sacater's ubuntu membership , he will make a good addition to the community and is workin twords MOTUship someday ( not yet ), he has been active ~3 months iirc on irc and seems to be a solid contributior almost daily, anyhow if someone could bring up my +1 when the time is correct please....
User19: User51 :D
User16: (imbrandon)
User35: i'm not a ubuntu member, but i am a gentoo developer, as such i feel i may as well try an vouch for him
User35: sacater's a hardworking 'lil bugger
User48: User19 are you studying software engineering?
User35: willing to learn
User19: thanks :D
User19: User48 im 14
User35: User48 he's 14...
User44: User19 so i'm only seeing about month of activity in actiivty.. which is a bit less time (though not less activyt) than we ask from most people
User35: User48 ask him that in ~4 years time ;)
User52: ;)
User48: don't they teach computer science at school here?
User29: User47 shouldn't you say something? :-)
User22: yeah they do ;)
User44: but as Seveas says, it sounds like you've been more active on IRC for a longer period :)
User16: mako, that wasn't me
User16: I quoted imbrandon
* kkubasik is a comp sci
User19: User44 i have been
User19: where the heck has LaserJock got to
User19: sigh
User44: User16 right, ok
User43: User48 not in schools, not as an exam-ed course no
User47: oh sorry
User47: was doing an experiment
User19: :o
User43: of course, I didn't know we had SATs, so what do I know
User35: User47 did you blow anything up? ^_-
User47: User35 not today, just some molecules
User48: User35 thanks for visiting, feel welcome to hang out here any time, we should share ideas with gentoo more often
User19: User47 make with the vouching..
User36: User43 SATs are used for school league tables and nothing else :)
User19: User48 that was one of my plans on my wiki page if you saw
User47: well, I don't have a ton to say about sacater. He's been in #ubuntu-motu for a while and I sponsored his upload
User35: User19 where's your wiki page?
User16: welp, wiki.ubuntu.com/sacater
User19: User35 wiki.ubuntu.com/sacater
User19: :o
User47: I hope to see him do more and eventually become a MOTU some day
User19: User16 great minds think alike :P
User16: sacater, lousy minds do the same
User47: seems like he's on the path there
User19: User47 thank you :D
User39: ehh wrt his help Feb 03 21:52:41 <sacater>  my first record of him helping
User16: sacater clearly doesn't lack enthousiasm
* ajmitch has also seen sacater fairly active on bug work
User19: :D
User51: at least judging from the amount of bug mail from him in my mailbox
User19: er hem!
User19: :P
User19: User51 how much mail
User19: User51 i havnt done that much with bugs lately
User19: more answers
User51: ~100 or so emails on ubuntu-bugs
User16: sacater, answers is good
User16: we need more people in the Q&A section
User51: a number of which have had debdiffs or bug triaging
User51: so I'd support him as a member
User19: whoot!
User35: what's bug triaging?
User19: User35 bug fixing, reporting etc
User51: User16 quite right, enthusiasm is not lacking
User35: it's probably got some equivilant in gentoo...
User35: oh, 'k.
User16: welp, assigning to the correct product, setting priorities, making sure all needed info is there, talking to reporters
User16: checking duplicates
User28: yes, quite a bit of bug triaging on gentoo too 8)
User48: ok, i would like to see a slightly longer participation
User35: sounds like gentoo's bug wrangling ;)
User51: User16 if I'm not here when it comes to ScottK, I'll throw in my support for him - he's been doing some great work with universe lately
User16: ajmitch, noted, thanks
User48: User19 are  you motivated to stay part of the community? even if we ask you to come back in two months?
User19: oh hell yes
User19: ubuntu pwns
User19: :D
User53: heh.
User48: ok. elmo, mako?
User44: User48 you beat me to it
User44: soudns wonderful
User16: sacater, keep up the good work!
User19: :D
User44: lets move on quickly
User16: apokryphos, you're up
User16: <gnomefreak> Seveas mako sabdfl i have to run for a while. I would like to say that apokryphos is a great asset to the ubuntu community and i think he is a great canidate for membership. Thank you :)
User28: thanks
User28: Hi, I'm Francis Giannaros. Wikipage: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FrancisGiannaros ; Launchpad: http://beta.launchpad.net/~apokryphos
User28: I've been using Kubuntu since the Warty days, got involved on IRC/Wiki in late Warty and became an IRC operator around Hoary times (I think). The vast majority of my Ubuntu contributions now are channelled through IRC.
User44: i need to leave in 10 minutes.. will be back in half a hour or so
User28: I'm an operator in most of the major Ubuntu channels, and contact for -uk and -gr; my jobs these days include helping out users, ensuring a smooth running in the channels, and discovering new types of colourful language when trying to deal with ban appeals in -ops :)
User43: (fine by me)
User53: User19 may I slip in that we need some help at edubuntu too? ;)
User28: I'm also [more]  involved with the openSUSE project
User55: User53 :-)
User16: and I'd like to add an enormous cheer to that. apokryphos is LONG overdue for membership, he's been helping in IRC land for ages
User19: User53 im always in #edubuntu nowadays, shout if you need me
User53: User19 great!
User35: whoa, whs there some kind of decision made about sacater? if there was, i seem to have missed it.
User44: i've certainly seen apokryphos around for a long time
User28: hm, vouching.. I guess any IRC operators in here may help :). ompaul, PriceChild, as well, from a quick glance
User2: welp, for him to come back in 2 months infront of the CC
User39: Seveas, +1
User48: User35 we asked him to keep at it, and return in two months
User35: 'k.
* PriceChild cheers for apokryphos lots and lots
User28: and imbrandon 8)
User48: User28 you've been an IRC op since Hoary?
User2: re
User36: apokryphos is well overdue for dual citizenship :)
User28: User48 I think so. Seveas, do you know?
User48: be nice to have a photo at https://beta.launchpad.net/~apokryphos for new members
User48: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers/+mugshots
User16: sabdfl, it may even be before that
User44: i think apokryphos has helped me out a few times when i had op related issues or questions :)
User44: anyone else have testimonials?
User2: also i might note apokryphos is a great help with kde* too :)
User48: ok, then +1 from me on the back of a longstanding contribution to the community
User16: sabdfl, but I don't keep logs for that long (they're over 100meg/month)
* ajmitch would probably have to find a photo to put up
User28: User48 I'll add one soon, sure.
* bddebian won't put one up, wouldn't want to scare anyone
User16: sabdfl, +mugshots !
User16: omg :)
User41: haha love that page
User16: yeah
User39: mako, he is (A) sane (B) useful (C) good technically
User48: my latest small addition to lp.net :-)
User39: mako, and he has been useful longer
User39: than I was
User48: elmo? mako?
User16: yikes... I'm killing my firefox... searched for apokryphos in the bantracker and the list is quite long :)
User44: oh i didn't see you'd voted
User28: heh
User44: yes, it's a +1 from me as well, long time work like this should be recognized :)
User44: User28 glad you've stuck around :)
User53: ha! some ubuntu members have big heads ;)
User16: (btw: I'll be doing the launchpad work after the meeting)
User43: +1
User28: User53 it's from the ego polishing at such events; /me's head is getting gradually larger 8)
User16: apokryphos, congratulations!
User16: Ekushey, you're up
User44: one more, quickly, and then i need to run although i'll probably catch the end of hte meeting
User28: thanks guys
User37: User28 congrats!
User53: User28 :)
User20: apokryphos, congrats
User56: congrats apokryphos
User40: Hello Seveas
User5: congrats
User40: My name is Russell, I'm from Bangladesh. I've been doing FOSS and Linux advocacy in my country for the last 5 years old so, and co-founded a LUG.
User40: #
User40: I'm the team leader and contact person for this team.
User40: #
User40: I maintain [WWW]  ubuntu-bd.org. I translate Ubuntu related news that goes on in this site.
User48: hey Ekushey, welcome
User44: also, someone should chastise all the people who signed up on the wiki today.. i thought we were discouraging this somehow :)
User48: wiki and lp url's?
User40: my wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Russell
User16: mako, in the future I'll put big 'DO NOT DIT
User16: mako, in the future I'll put big 'DO NOT EDIT' notices 4 days before
User40: LP is at https://launchpad.net/~russelljohn
User32: mako, in my defense, jono gave his "go ahead" early this morning :)
User40: sorry i'm lagging a bit
User39: mako, can't it be locked?
User16: some of the last-minute people are ill-prepared, although we've been fixing it for some
User32: or maybe it was last night.
User16: micahcowan, jono is not on the CC and hasn't been to many of its meetings :)
User32: Seveas, I know; but mako asked me to pass it by him to see what he thought.
User44: User39 it's not that big a deal, just a push to get people to think ahead :)
* mako nods to Seveas, micahcowan
User39: mako, they are too busy fixing bugs :)
User40: Sevaeas, i'm sweating
User32: Sorry Ekushey, didn't mean to steal from your time :(
User16: Ekushey, relax, they're looking over your info now
User40: Seveas, okay
User16: no need to sweat, there will not be full cavity searces or other scary things
User40: :)
User55: What, they don't do those anymore??
User57: Hi! - I am Sputnik from the german kubuntu-community. Before I have to leave now I would like to promote candidate emonkey today who is on the list later. Emonkey has done a good job so far for the community here around and I trust his actvities.
User44: User40 anyone here to advocate for you?
User20: sputnik, thx
User58: Ekushey, it's all good, they'll just eat you and cook for dinner
User58: that's all there is involved with getting accepted
User58: read the fine prints Ekushey :p
User40: mako, it's late at night here so i couldn't bring anyone
User22: yeah, im In a similar boat
* sputnik greats the council
User40: it's 3:35 am now
User44: User40 remind me, did you present your loco to us?
User22: mine just offered to leave a message on the wiki page
* kkubasik shrugs
User22: I'll let you know how that goes
User40: mako, yes, it approved by CC
* mako nods to Ekushey
User51: User22 that's ok, we know that bhale would've supported you
User44: User40 your wiki page is a little thin
User40: byt Jono didn't add it to the list cause he wanted us to grow a little more. it's almost been 6 months now.
User44: User40 since most of your work is in your loco team, it seems, it would help to have people there, because its hard for us to see what you've done within that team
User44: ok. you should work with jono on that
User48: User40 could you tell us about the local community, and your role in that?
User44: and i'd feel better if you had some testimonials
User48: it's tricky for folks in asia, given the current CC spread
User44: in any case, i really need to go or i'm going be in trouble :)
User48: we do need to address that
User40: sabdfl, i mostly do the advocacy part
User44: i'll be back soon, please just keep going and i'll look over thins
User16: mako, ack
User48: mako, are you ok if elmo and I +1 ekushey based on further conversation?
User48: ok, mako can +1 or defer later
User40: we're working on to popularise ubuntu between computer users, mostly students
User48: User40 i'm basically happy with your membership application, because it seems to me you've been making a big contribution to free software locally for some time, and ubuntu has been your focus
User48: could you tell us about some of your work?
User48: do you work or study at NSU?
User16: sabdfl, sorry to interfere, but doing this for every candidate makes these meetings very long. Candidates should come prepared or be defered if we don't want the grueling lomg meetings of yore back
User40: sabdfl, no, i studied from another university
User48: ok. ekushey, in deference to other candidates, could you get some testimonials from the other folks on your team?
User48: and come back for the next meeting
User48: sorry, i know it's very late there now
User48: i like what i see here
User40: sabdfl, yes i can do that
User48: thanks very much
User40: yw
User19: #im going to bed now, gnight everyone
User48: perhaps even emailing them in a single mail, cc'd to the CC and to the folks providing the testimonials
User48: night sacater
User48: next?
User16: kkubasik,
User22: yello
User22: 1 se
User22: Hey, I'm Kevin Kubasik, a college student at Case Western Reserve University. I am an active member of the Gnome Foundation and focus most of my programmatic energies into Beagle Desktop Search. About 4 months ago I started to get involved with rolling packages for MOTU, I am now preparing to take over for the current Beagle packager (Brandon Hale). I currently handle most of the launchpad bug-flow, and still hack heavily upstream. I
User59: goodn8 sacater, and congrats :)
User40: sabdfl, alright i'll send the e-mail.
User48: thanks Ekushey
User48: User22 url's?
User16: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KevinKubasik
User16: https://launchpad.net/~kkubasik/
User22: oo, my bad, sorry
User22: Yeah, I wasn't sure if I should link to all the stuff off of my launchpad page from the wiki, since it seemed a little silly to be like 'I have answerd lots of bugs'
User16: Karma:  9772
User16: nice
User22: its mostly from beagle, edgy shipped a crasher on shutdown
User22: wasn't handling SIGTERMS'
User22: so beagle hung until killed, so apport saw a crash
User22: and we got like 25 of those a day for a few weeks
User22: that's one of the big reasons I started getting involved, most of the beagle dev team was novell
User22: and we weren't really 'with' the ubuntu release cycle
User22: the upstream didn't know what ubuntu was doing etc.
User16: do you think beagle will soon/ever be suitable to include by default?
User22: so I got more involved with it
User22: User16 most definatly I think festy +1 is very doable
User22: if not in demand
User29: gutsy :-)
User22: awesome... :)
User22: but yeah, that's why I'm starting to consider desktop-wide integration
User22: my perfect world would have evolution,f-spot and banshee (for starters) all utilizng beagle
User48: acapella rocks :-)
User22: and the code its pretty easy, its just the planning
User22: yeah!
User48: User22 this is a great contribution, and over quite a period of time too
User22: thank you
User48: i'm quite happy to +1 your membership
User43: +1
User22: :)
User16: ok, we'll let mako ack later there
User48: mako will ack later i'm sure
User16: ranf, you're up
User48: go beagle!
User60: I am Ralf. I live in Germany. Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ranf Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~ranf
User60: Long time Linux user (I'm not sure. About 10 years).
User60: Ubuntu user since Warty Warthog (4.10). My laptop runs Xubuntu.
User60: I mostly do help on the german forums these days. ubuntuforums.org has gotten too crowded for me :-)
User22: thanks again!
User29: User48 doglover ;-)
User61: hello
User22: and think about the awesome things beagle can do in gusty when it comes spec-time :)
User16: ranf_, your documented contributions seem a little thin, are there other things you have done?
User16: <sputnik> Hi! - I am Sputnik from the german kubuntu-community. Before I have to leave now I would like to promote candidate emonkey today who is on the list later. Emonkey has done a good job so far for the community here around and I trust his actvities.
User60: sf.net ?
User60: sf.net ok?
User16: ranf_, ubuntu specific things count here :)
User60: ok
User16: err, wrong paste before, that was for emonkey
User32: I wondered...
User16: I thought I had one for ranf_ as wel but I don't :)
User60: * reported some bugs that bit myself. And tried to help on some others.
User60: * made minor changes to some Wiki pages
User16: ranf_, your karma is 70, that's nowhere near a sustained contribution on bugs
User16: and you mention one wikipage
User16: (is there a way in moinmoin to see a summary for an editor?)
User60: my karma was (guessing here) over 240. some months ago.
User55: That's probably about what mine is lately :-(
User32: bddebian = 1781
User60: bddebian, what does that mean for me?
User55: User60 Nothing, sorry, I was whining
User43: sabdfl's ISP just dropped him off the net
User43: he'll be back ASAP
User16: ah ok
User16: it was disturbingly quiet
User60: I had probs as well
User43: User5 while I appreciate your contributions so far, seveas has a point, do you think it'd be possible for you to keep plugging away and come back after a while, possibly with some cheerleaders for places where it might not be so obvious you're doing good stuff (e.g. the .de forums)?
User60: Seveas, thin? how do you count? Based on number of posts in forum?
User60: s/in/in a/
User55: Gents, I have to leave also.  Please give a +1 for ScottK for me.  Lots of bug triaging/fixing
User16: ranf_, based on the things you say you do. That includes karma, forumposts, the other things you mention
User16: bddebian, noted
User62: hi, sorry folks
User29: User48 wb
User62: telecomms glitch
User62: ranf still up?
User60: yup
User16: ranf_, I'm not saying you don't do enough, just that if you do, you could document it better so we know. I'm more than willing to help you with that
User60: making noise you mean?
User16: no, I mean specifying everything you do on your wikipage
User60: ok
User62: User60 i was going to ask about bug work
User62: it looks like you have only really reported bugs that affect you
User62: it would be nice to see contributions made to bugs that affect others, too
User60: How could I report others? That I can't reproduce?
User62: membership is a reflection of contribution to the community, over time
User62: well, trying to reproduce them is useful
User62: gives additional data
User16: or help debugging/triaging them
User62: separates easy bugs from hard bugs etc
User41: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
User60: My LP page has more bugs than the Wiki. I don't like duplicating info
User32: Subscribing to rejected or other situations can be a bit cumbersome, but can also be a good way to let lp document what bugs you've touched.
User16: sabdf1, telco problems again or still pondering?
User62: still pondering
User29: hmm
User29: User16 you shouldn't have asked ;-)
User62: User60 are you working closely with anybody who could comment on your contribution?
* mako is back
User60: to be fair no
User16: mako, hi
User29: aha. l and 1 are diffrent things :-P
User16: mako, elmo/sabdfl +1'ed kkubasic, currently discussing ranf_
User44: right
* mako tries to catch up
User62: User60 i'd rather defer this a month or so, is that ok?
User62: i see now that most of the bugs you are subscribed to are not bugs you reported
User62: which is good
User62: means you are involved in helping to track fixes for issues generally
User62: but i'm still missing a stong sense of the scale of your contributions, and perhaps having some folks you've collaborated with give a comment or two would help
User62: s/stong/strong/
User60: let's defer.
User16: ok, User60 if you need help with the wikipage, just poke me
User44: alright then
User60: Seveas, will do.
User16: ScottK, you're up next
User23: I'm Scott Kitterman.  I've used Ubuntu for roughly a year - both servers and Kubuntu Desktop.  I do KDE testing and general bug triaging.  For Feisty I've been involved in MOTU.  I did new packages and merges/sync requests/bug fixes.  Wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottKitterman and LP is https://launchpad.net/~kitterman .
User16: <ajmitch> User16 if I'm not here when it comes to ScottK, I'll throw in my support for him - he's been doing some great work with universe lately
User16: <bddebian> Gents, I have to leave also.  Please give a +1 for ScottK for me.  Lots of bug triaging/fixing
User23: There was also e-mail from crimsun to the cc list.
User29: +1 for ScottK :-)
User63: ooh, I support ScottK, he does lots of handy testing and bug fixing
User62: User23 what's the status of SPF?
User23: It's currently an experimental RFC (4408)
User30: User23 SPF is always welcome. We (my company) will implement it (and DNSSEC) on 56 domains next week
User62: lots of bug karma - great work!
User23: It is not perfect, but for e-mail forgery protection it's the best/most deployed thing there is
User23: User30 Cool. Ping me if you need help.
User16: <somerville32> I have to run too. +1 for apokryphos and ScottK for membership. :) ttyl  everyone
User62: https://launchpad.net/~kitterman/+packages
User62: shows the coverage nicely
User62: +1 from me
User16: <Nafallo> +1 for ScottK :-)
User16: meh, Nafallo repeated that already :)
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