Serving Persecuted Christians Worldwide - History - Open Doors UK & Ireland Brother Andrew smuggles Bibles into Eastern Europe for the first time. 1957: BEETLE DRIVE Brother Andrew makes the first of many trips to the Soviet Union in his blue Volkswagen Beetle, which was to travel over 200,000 miles. Printing presses begin to print Bibles for distribution to persecuted Christians. Chairman Mao begins the Cultural Revolution, attempting to wipe out all religion. Brother Andrew's biography, God's Smuggler, becomes one of the best-selling Christian books of all time. 1975: LOVE CHINA Open Doors sponsors the 'Love China' conference in south east Asia, to encourage ministry to China. The first Open Doors radio transmission is broadcast to encourage persecuted Christians. 1,000 Bibles are delivered in Open Doors' first truck delivery to Romania. Contact with churches in the Middle East begins. Open Doors sponsors 'Love Africa'. 30,000 New Testaments are delivered to Chinese Christians. 1981: PROJECT PEARL 'Project Pearl' sees one million Bibles delivered to a beach in China in just one night. Thousands of waiting believers gather to receive them.

1982: SEVEN-YEAR PRAYER CAMPAIGN Open Doors launches a seven-year campaign of prayer for the Communist Bloc. Seven years later, in 1989, the Berlin Wall falls. The Soviet Union is opened to the gospel and Christian prisoners are released. 1985: PROJECT CROSSFIRE 'Project Crossfire' distributes five million pieces of Christian literature in Latin America. Thousands of young people are helped to share their faith in Christ. Open Doors delivers one million New Testaments to Russia. 1991: TEN YEARS FOR THE 10-40 A ten year prayer campaign begins for the 10-40 window – the area of North Africa, the Middle East and Asia which includes the majority of the world's Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists. 1992: PROJECT SAMUEL One million children in the former Soviet Union get their very first Bibles, many in remote areas. 1993: ALBANIAN BIBLE Brother Andrew presents the first copy of the full Bible in Albanian to the President of Albania – a country which had once declared itself the world's first atheist state. Study Bibles in Latin American Spanish are printed and delivered.

1997: STANDING STRONG Open Doors launches Standing Strong Through The Storm – a training programme for Christians facing persecution. In its updated version it is still in use today. 1998: OPERATION DAILY BREAD Open Doors launches its first relief project. 'Operation Daily Bread' flies in food and supplies to remote areas of war-torn southern Sudan. Open Doors work in North Korea begins with the delivery of 10,000 Korean Bibles 2000: PROJECT BAMBOO One million Bibles and one million pieces of Christian literature are delivered to China, the largest annual delivery since 'Project Pearl'. 2001: OPEN DOORS YOUTH The first Open Doors Youth forum gathers to identify how to reach the next generation with the message of the persecuted church. 2003: HEART FOR IRAQ Open Doors launches 'Heart for Iraq' delivering materials and bringing encouragement to the church in Iraq. 2005: 50TH ANNIVERSARY As Open Doors celebrates its 50th anniversary, a three-year prayer chain for North Korea is launched.

2010: RIGHT TO BELIEVE CAMPAIGN The 'Right to Believe' campaign sees over 428,000 Christians around the world sign a petition showing their support for persecuted Christians. 2013: SAVE SYRIA In response to the civil war in Syria, Open Doors launches its largest relief programme ever, helping Christians in the country to stay and shine. 2014: IRAQ APPEAL Open Doors supports thousands of displaced families in Iraq, who have been forced to flee by Islamic militants, including the so-called Islamic State. 2015: SIXTY YEARS ON In Minnesota it is illegal to tease what animal Skunk 47 She is - IT - 402 View Full Document In Minnesota it is illegal to tease what animal Skunk 47 She is the Chinese name of what year (animal) Serpent 48 Who wrote The Deceiver 1991 and The Fist of God 1993 Frederick Forsyth 49 What does the name Stephen mean - from the Greek Crown 50 International Airline Registrations SX is what country Greece Page 60 This preview has intentionally blurred sections. Sign up to view the full version.

View Full Document 10000 general knowledge questions and answers No Questions Quiz 30 Answers 51 Sport variable ground size 120x150yd min 170x200 max Aussie rules football 52 50% of Dutch men have never done what Flown in a plane 28% fear it 53 If you Absterse something what do you do Clean it 54 Musa acuminata is what favourite food item Banana 55 In a year the average person walks four miles doing what Making their bed 56 What was the first film to use stereophonic sound Disney's Fantasia 57 The letter B comes from Egyptian hieroglyphics meaning what House 58 in 1995 13 books every minute sold in US were on what subject Star Trek 59 There are more telephones than people in what city Washington USA 60 In the middle ages you could be fined four pence murdering who Travelling Musician 61 What food Scots once refuse to eat cos it was not in the Bible Potato 62 33% of what are fake in the USA Blondes 63 What holiday islands have no

 rivers or lakes - rain water only Bermuda 64 If you suffered from Chirospasm what have you got Writers Cramp 65 What links Bob Hope John Huston Ryon O'Neil Bo Diddley Boxers early in life 66 Little Jumping Flea literal trans of what Hawaiian instrument Ukulele 67 In Alaska it is illegal to look at a moose from where Window of any aircraft 68 More that I/3 adults do what average 3 time each morning Hit Snooze button on alarm clock 69 A furfy is Australian slang for what False story or rumour 70 Who said China is a big country inhabited by many Chinese Charles de Gaulle 71 In a recent survey women disliked what part of male body most Feet 72 The US had 5% world population and 70% of worlds what Lawyers 73 In 1902 What did Mary Anderson invent Windscreen Wipers 74 If you landed at Arlanda airport where would you be Stockholm Sweden 75 The FEI govern what sport Equestrian 76 Traditionally what should be given on a 20th anniversary China 77 In Somalia its illegal to carry old chewing

 gum where Stuck on your nose 78 What food did the Romans call Pointed Stick Broccoli - from Brocca 79 Name the pet alligator in Miami Vice Elvis 80 In California 22 " is the minimum legal length of saleable what Halibut 81 On any given day half of Americans are on what A special Diet 82 Gondolas in Venice are traditionally what colour Black 83 Benjamin who was the first Lord Mayor of Dublin Guinness 84 What country declared itself first atheist state in 1967 Albania – banned religion 85 Where was Bacardi originally made Cuba 86 What is six inches in height and no bigger by the rules Table Tennis Net 87 Until 1862 there was a tax in England for those who used what Soap 88 a Paralian always lives near what The Sea 89 The US uses up 7000 tons of what annually Currency - it is shredded 90 This is the end of the preview.

Sign up to access the rest of the document. TERM Kenyatta University IT 402 - Spring 2015 1 2 3 4 5 Sampling In Research What is research? According Webster (1985), to researc HYPO.docx Religion Archives - Page 2 of 2 - Left side of the roadLeft side of the road | Page 2 Reply Small altar in the Panagia church The rear wall of the Panagia Monastery Church – Mother of Christ – in Dhërmi, Himara province, southern Albania, warns sinners of what’s in store for them if they don’t repent. Over the years I’ve been inside hundreds of churches and Cathedrals, mainly Catholic or Protestant, and each time it’s been on the look-out for something unusual, different from the norm. For example, the huge (unreal) guinea pig on the table of the Last Supper in Cuzco, Peru, or the black Christ and two Marys in a church in Lorca, in Spain. But Greek Orthodox churches are new to me and its only in Albania that I’ve had the chance to go inside a significant number of them.

And for me they are generally not very interesting. The layout is virtually the same: the rood screen at the front, behind which there is the altar; on the screen there will be the same collection of icons, of Christ and the Apostles; and around the walls there will be icons of other saints, depictions of their miracles and/or martyrdom. The only variant seems to be in the wealth or otherwise of any particular church, some having (from where I know not) acquired huge amounts of money to pay for the silver images on the rood screen, the fine painted icons that decorate the walls or the chandeliers. When I went inside a new Orthodox church in the small village of Dhërmi, which is along the coastal road from Saranda to Vlore, in the southern part of the country, a woman who was something like a caretaker encouraged me to go to the centre of the church and look at all this silverware with the words ‘Buker, jo?’ (‘Isn’t it beautiful?’) Impressive perhaps, but not the sort of artwork that does much for me.

This has been taken to the ultimate in the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in the centre of Tirana, opened on 24th June 2012. At the opposite extreme to these clean, almost pristine, new buildings are the ancient churches and monasteries that exist throughout the country. Some of these go back centuries and they are interesting as they are very much in the style of the Romanesque churches that exist in western Europe, a style I’ve grown to like over the years, mainly for its primitiveness, honesty and naiveté. A couple of those I’ve been able to see were in a really sad state. These were two small churches in the Old Town of Himara. This area had been abandoned I don’t know how many years ago as I’ve drawn a blank when looking for information about when the people decided to live lower down the hill. These two churches had suffered from damage which I imagine was a mixture of vandalism (the area was always being fought over by different armies) and just simple neglect.

In a country which declared itself the first atheist state in the world in 1967 it is sometimes forgotten that churches have been left to go to ruin throughout history, throughout the western world, even in countries that considered themselves deeply and profoundly religious. Therefore not every ruined and abandoned church is as a result of a political act, although political opponents will suggest it is. In fact, it was the Government of the People’s Republic of Albania that declared these two churches part of country’s heritage in 1963, providing the buildings with a certain amount of protection, indicating that neither the church authorities nor the local populace were taking care of the structures themselves. One church that I visited that did seem to have had some element of care lavished upon it over the years was in the same village of Dhërmi which I’ve mentioned above. This was Panagia Monastery Church – Mother of Christ – perched high up above the old town. Panagia Monastery high above Dhermi When I say ‘care’ that is all relative.

Even though in a better state than some of the older churches the space at the back of the church resembled something closer to a garden shed than a church, and the ancient mural that covered the whole of the back wall had a home-made ladder (the sort you see in an orchard) leaning against these fragile images. I’m not one for arguing that these images should be destroyed but at the same time I do believe there’s a certain responsibility incumbent upon the local people not to damage them by carelessness and neglect. If they don’t take care why should the rest of society come in a pick up the bill for restoration? It was on this wall that I saw some of the most interesting images in a Greek Orthodox church so far. I’m always on the look out for the unusual, as I said above. What has particularly attracted me about many of the paintings in Romanesque churches is the way that ignorant, frightened, superstitious and gullible people thought of the afterlife. Placing these images in churches was obviously a process of social control. If you were faced with such horrific images of perpetual torture by horrendous, devilish creatures you were less likely to buck against the existing order.

The images might be different but religion still plays that pivotal role in most societies – hence the atheist campaign in Albania. So what is Hell like? I’m always on the search for any clues just in case I’ve got it all wrong and there is a God, there is an afterlife and there is a Heaven and a Hell. Because if I have got it wrong I’m going to Hell for sure – and wouldn’t even contemplate going to Heaven. If there is a God then these images are not just from the imagination of man – I don’t think many women were painting church murals in the past. They must come from some inspiration from the Almighty and therefore must be an accurate record of the fate to befall all of us sinners. And that being the case I’m always glad that God has a sense of humour as well as being prepared to cruelly place many of us through torments and agonies for eternity. I particularly like the image that, I assume, depicts what awaits a drunkard when he enters Hell, being forced to drink from a never emptying barrel. I know some people who would rather see that as a depiction of Heaven.

Panagia Monastery – The Drunkard in Hell 9,210 total views, 5 views today 2 An angry Communist threatens Franciscan friars Religion is interesting in Albania. Travelling around you can’t help but notice the new mosques and churches (both Catholic and Greek Orthodox) that are appearing everywhere. Whether there’s a real need for so many is debatable, I’ve hardly seen any evidence of what could be called a ‘religious revival’. When I’ve gone past mosques after the call to prayer there’s hardly as much activity as there is on a regular basis at the mosque in Liverpool 8. And when I’m expecting there to be the 6 o’clock mass in the Catholic Churches there have been even fewer people in the church at that time than there might have been a few hours earlier. Or the churches are locked up. I don’t really know the timetable used by the Greek Orthodox church (and I’m hardly an authority on any other religious sect really) but I’ve not seen crowds streaming from their doors either. I’ll return to religion in other posts but in this one I want to concentrate on one particular church and three paintings inside of that church.

And this is the Franciscan Church (known as The Big Church) in the city of Shkodër, in the north-west of Albania, not far from the Montenegrin border. Having their headquarters outside of the country, the Franciscans, in 1946, were forced to cease their activities in Albania – as were the Jesuits. In January 1947 a cache of arms and ammunition was found in their church in Shkodër and that led to the state clamping down hard on the order. The priests maintained that these arms had been planted by the Albania security forces and pleaded their innocence. However, those were times when efforts were being made by countries such as Britain to do anything, and everything, they could to get a change of government in Tirana, one much more amenable to their political philosophy. We may have to wait another half a century before any material in the secret British Government archives might reveal more definite proof. But back to the church in Shkodër . The Franciscans resented this greatly and held that grudge for almost 50 years.

In that time the church had been used as a cinema and auditorium but with the counter-revolution of 1990 they got their church back and a few years after that commissioned three new paintings. These are unlike any paintings I personally have seen in any church, of whatever variety of religion. Here they represent that the gloves are off. They are a declaration of war against any society that has the temerity to challenge their superstition and their right to peddle such ideas to the young, confused, frightened and impressionable. Nowhere have I seen a clearer representation of the virulence of their hatred for socialism and, perhaps, is only comparable with the attitude of the Catholic Church and priests in Spain during the Spanish Civil War (1936-9). Karol Wotjyla would have loved them if he had the chance to see them. They were all painted by P Sheldija in or around 1996-7, but I’ve not been able to find any other reference to him (or her) so don’t know about anything other than these three paintings. Who placed the arms in the Franciscan Church?

What is interesting, and one of the aspects that unites all three, is the influence of the Socialist Realist style in the depiction of the images. They depict ‘real’ people in ‘real’ situations. There are those who are obviously ‘good’ and those who are positively ‘evil’. Here there is no muddying of the waters. Communists = BAD, Franciscans = GOOD. And the ordinary people are the ones who suffer is this eternal battle. Because it is an eternal battle as the Communists are the Anti-Christ, they are literally the agents of the Devil. The Devil (or his disciples) are behind the Communists in both a literal and figurative sense. They are at the back of the Reds, talking into their ears, inciting them to attack the church and its loyal, faithful and non-violent servants. The Devils have horns, tails and bat like wings. (We are encouraged to suspend disbelief here and forget the persecution that the Catholic Church perpetrated throughout the centuries, the deaths they precipitated, and the lack of sympathy for any ideas, religions, which were not totally in accord with what was decreed in Rome.

The ‘extirpation of idolatry’ was the term used in this context in South America following the arrival of the Spanish.) The principal Communist is aggressive, angry. His gun points at the Franciscans, his other fist raised in a threatening manner, a sneer on his face. Two of the Franciscans are in chains, forced to carry armfuls of guns. They are calm, stoical and have an angel of God looking over them. St Francis holds an infant Jesus in his arms. At the bottom are the people. A mix of ages, social and ethnic backgrounds, gender and degrees of fear, shock, supplication, confusion displayed on their faces. They are begging, imploring that all this violence ceases. I assume that this is making a reference to the incident in 1947 when the Franciscans were punished for their counter-revolutionary activity. On either side of the painting are quotes from the Book of Psalms. For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they might privily shoot at the upright in heart.

Psalm 11, v2 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Psalm 12, v6 The atheists meet while the Catholics hold Mass The second painting depicts an atheist, anti-religion meeting in the city of Skodër. On a banner is the famous phrase from Karl Marx – ‘religion is the opium of the people’. On another banner the slogan is ‘Fight against religious ignorance’. The figures in the foreground have turned their backs on all this ‘nonsense’. Like in the previous painting they are a mix of ages and genders. Traditional as well as contemporary dress is depicted. The central figure here is a priest whose stole (the long, narrow sash a priest would wear when saying Mass and which he kisses before putting around his neck) is resting on the head of a bowed man, presumably a form of blessing. An old woman looks tired and weary and in her hand is holding a rosary, which a young girl shares with her. Another woman also has a rosary in her hand but this one has the cross hanging just above the head of a baby in a cot.

A young woman is reading from a Bible and in the background is the building in which the painting now resides, the Franciscan church. This also has two quotes from the Book of Psalms, but unfortunately I framed my pictures too tight and cut out the one on the right. The one I do know about is: And render unto our neighbours sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord. Psalm 79, v12 Crucifixion of Franciscan Friars The third is a reference to the Crucifixion. But instead of Christ hanging on a cross we have two Franciscan friars being tortured by being tied to a tree. One of them looks up to heaven, his face a mixture of pain and serenity knowing that salvation awaits him. On either side of the tree, sitting on the ground, are two Communists, both armed and one with the red star on his cap. They are possibly asleep, resting on their weapons. In the background is a depiction of the Franciscan church. Whilst the first two paintings are in alcoves along the length of the nave the painting of the Crucifixion is in an alcove to the left of the altar.

These have been the most political paintings I’ve seen in any of the churches I have visited so far in Albania. (Considering my approach to religion I’m clocking up a good number of churches!) It’s not surprising that these should be in Shkodër as this was the Catholic heartland. In that city you don’t come across any Greek Orthodox churches, although there are at least three mosques. As I travel around I will continue to look for such gems of anti-Communism. 15,484 total views, 10 views today panagia Archives - Left side of the roadLeft side of the road Reply Small altar in the Panagia church The rear wall of the Panagia Monastery Church – Mother of Christ – in Dhërmi, Himara province, southern Albania, warns sinners of what’s in store for them if they don’t repent. Over the years I’ve been inside hundreds of churches and Cathedrals, mainly Catholic or Protestant, and each time it’s been on the look-out for something unusual, different from the norm.

For example, the huge (unreal) guinea pig on the table of the Last Supper in Cuzco, Peru, or the black Christ and two Marys in a church in Lorca, in Spain. But Greek Orthodox churches are new to me and its only in Albania that I’ve had the chance to go inside a significant number of them. And for me they are generally not very interesting. The layout is virtually the same: the rood screen at the front, behind which there is the altar; on the screen there will be the same collection of icons, of Christ and the Apostles; and around the walls there will be icons of other saints, depictions of their miracles and/or martyrdom. The only variant seems to be in the wealth or otherwise of any particular church, some having (from where I know not) acquired huge amounts of money to pay for the silver images on the rood screen, the fine painted icons that decorate the walls or the chandeliers.

When I went inside a new Orthodox church in the small village of Dhërmi, which is along the coastal road from Saranda to Vlore, in the southern part of the country, a woman who was something like a caretaker encouraged me to go to the centre of the church and look at all this silverware with the words ‘Buker, jo?’ (‘Isn’t it beautiful?’) Impressive perhaps, but not the sort of artwork that does much for me. This has been taken to the ultimate in the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in the centre of Tirana, opened on 24th June 2012. At the opposite extreme to these clean, almost pristine, new buildings are the ancient churches and monasteries that exist throughout the country. Some of these go back centuries and they are interesting as they are very much in the style of the Romanesque churches that exist in western Europe, a style I’ve grown to like over the years, mainly for its primitiveness, honesty and naiveté. A couple of those I’ve been able to see were in a really sad state. These were two small churches in the Old Town of Himara.

This area had been abandoned I don’t know how many years ago as I’ve drawn a blank when looking for information about when the people decided to live lower down the hill. These two churches had suffered from damage which I imagine was a mixture of vandalism (the area was always being fought over by different armies) and just simple neglect. In a country which declared itself the first atheist state in the world in 1967 it is sometimes forgotten that churches have been left to go to ruin throughout history, throughout the western world, even in countries that considered themselves deeply and profoundly religious. Therefore not every ruined and abandoned church is as a result of a political act, although political opponents will suggest it is. In fact, it was the Government of the People’s Republic of Albania that declared these two churches part of country’s heritage in 1963, providing the buildings with a certain amount of protection, indicating that neither the church authorities nor the local populace were taking care of the structures themselves. One church that I visited that did seem to have had some element of care lavished upon it over the years was in the same village of Dhërmi which I’ve mentioned above.

This was Panagia Monastery Church – Mother of Christ – perched high up above the old town. Panagia Monastery high above Dhermi When I say ‘care’ that is all relative. Even though in a better state than some of the older churches the space at the back of the church resembled something closer to a garden shed than a church, and the ancient mural that covered the whole of the back wall had a home-made ladder (the sort you see in an orchard) leaning against these fragile images. I’m not one for arguing that these images should be destroyed but at the same time I do believe there’s a certain responsibility incumbent upon the local people not to damage them by carelessness and neglect. If they don’t take care why should the rest of society come in a pick up the bill for restoration? It was on this wall that I saw some of the most interesting images in a Greek Orthodox church so far. I’m always on the look out for the unusual, as I said above. What has particularly attracted me about many of the paintings in Romanesque churches is the way that ignorant, frightened, superstitious and gullible people thought of the afterlife.

Placing these images in churches was obviously a process of social control. If you were faced with such horrific images of perpetual torture by horrendous, devilish creatures you were less likely to buck against the existing order. The images might be different but religion still plays that pivotal role in most societies – hence the atheist campaign in Albania. So what is Hell like? I’m always on the search for any clues just in case I’ve got it all wrong and there is a God, there is an afterlife and there is a Heaven and a Hell. Because if I have got it wrong I’m going to Hell for sure – and wouldn’t even contemplate going to Heaven. If there is a God then these images are not just from the imagination of man – I don’t think many women were painting church murals in the past. They must come from some inspiration from the Almighty and therefore must be an accurate record of the fate to befall all of us sinners. And that being the case I’m always glad that God has a sense of humour as well as being prepared to cruelly place many of us through torments and agonies for eternity.

I particularly like the image that, I assume, depicts what awaits a drunkard when he enters Hell, being forced to drink from a never emptying barrel. I know some people who would rather see that as a depiction of Heaven. Panagia Monastery – The Drunkard in Hell 9,250 total views, 10 views today Faith Freedom International • View topic - Religion - the root of all evil??? Religion - the root of all evil??? Does God exist? Is Allah God? Creation vs. evolution. Is Religion needed? Logic vs. faith. Morality and ethics. by bcbob » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:49 pm Question - Is religion the root of all evil? Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse. If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place? i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting. Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:04 am Gender: Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

by RichardTheLionheart » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:26 am I agree, people fight over lots of things. If religion didn't exist there would still be money, territory, race or political ideology etc... The problem with religion is the absolute belief of divine sanction and heavenly reward for waging warfare. It adds almost infinite motivation for conflict. Ex-Muslims needed to answer my questions: Serious posts only. Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:58 pm Gender: by charleslemartel » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:50 am RichardTheLionheart wrote: I agree, people fight over lots of things. If religion didn't exist there would still be money, territory, race or political ideology etc... The problem with religion is the absolute belief of divine sanction and heavenly reward for waging warfare. It adds almost infinite motivation for conflict. Not only that, but religion promises imaginary goodies as rewards for killing and being killed. As for all the other reasons people fight because of, it is possible to weigh the benefits versus the losses because of such fighting.

Many would find that the rewards are not great enough for risking their own lives. So, the motivation for non-religious wars/fights is at a much watered down level. Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims. Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world. by Sameer » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:54 am by bcbob » Is religion the root of all evil? Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse. If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place? i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting. Because of religion...There are more fights going on in this world...Also some other fights are going on... If there is no religion also...some fights will be there...That is because of Bad people.If everyone are good,there aint no problem,no fighting....Only Peace...

But there are bad people.....Bad people are more in this world and good people are very less.So its all about how good a person is...... "UNTIL RELIGIONS EXISTS,THERE WILL BE NO FREEDOM FOR SOME PEOPLE" by IoshkaFutz » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:08 pm bcbob wrote: Question - Is religion the root of all evil? Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse. If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place? i doubt it, i reckon that if religion did not exist then we would not be any different...we would just find another reason for fighting. According to "Encyclopedia of Wars" by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod, three-volume, massive 1,502-page compendium compiled by nine reputable professors of history, including the director of the Centre of Military History and the former head of the Centre for Defence Studies, there have been 1,763 wars, of these 123 of religious nature, representing only 6.92 percent of all the wars recorded in the encyclopedia.

More than half of these religious wars, sixty-six in all, were waged by Islamic nations, which is more than might be statistically expected considering that the first war in which Islam was involved took place almost three millennia after the first war chronicled in the Encyclopedia, Akkad’s conquest of Sumer in 2325 B.C. bcbob asks: "Nearly every war is born from disagreement of religious beliefs or at best religion is used as the excuse. If religion did not exist would the world be a peaceful place?" Apparently not (also because the premise is a big fat lie) “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945 Re: Religion - the root of all evil??? by IoshkaFutz » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:14 pm There has only been one officially atheist country in history, the Albanian dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, which declared itself to be the world’s first atheist state in September, 1967.

However, there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm, beginning with the First French Republic and ending with the four atheist regimes currently extant: the People’s Republic of China, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao and are known to have murdered at least 20,000 of their own citizens. The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined. The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition.

“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945 by Sten » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:21 pm IoshkaFutz wrote: There has only been one officially atheist country in history, the Albanian dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, which declared itself to be the world’s first atheist state in September, 1967. However, there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm, beginning with the First French Republic and ending with the four atheist regimes currently extant: the People’s Republic of China, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.

These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao and are known to have murdered at least 20,000 of their own citizens. The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined. The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. Ioshka - how many of those so-called "atheist" societies actually deified their state leader? Do you consider mindless worship of a state leader and skeptical atheism to be the same thing? The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent.

- Carl Sagan by IoshkaFutz » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:55 pm Psycho Bunny wrote: I was unsure - but Ioshka has made my decision for me - religion rots the brain, distorts the truth for its own ends, and cannot cope with criticism. Religionists prefer to dress up lies as truths rather than acknowledge any doubts in their superstitious evidence-free clap-trap. And anyone who disagrees is - by Ioshka's pathetic distinctions - a "Stalinist". Ioshka - I would rather be a rationalist than a paranoid fantasist who has to slander those who do not share one's delusional way of thinking. What was that all about? Don't blame me, blame the info on "Encyclopedia of Wars" by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod, three-volume, massive 1,502-page compendium compiled by nine reputable professors of history, including the director of the Centre of Military History and the former head of the Centre for Defence Studies. However, there's more to evil than body counts. It's not that easy.

BTW I'm not sure of Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod's religion, but I did get the info from a source that could be considered suspect, an online book called "The Irrational Atheist." It's an answer to Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and compagnia bella. Here - imagining that you won't mind, let me copy paste a pertinent bit of it. =================================================== But there is no point to arguing from anecdotal evidence. A more systematic review of the 489 wars listed in the Wikipedia’s list of military conflicts, from Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars to the 1969 Football War between Honduras and El Salvador, shows that only fifty-three of these wars—10.8 percent—can reasonably be described as having a religious aspect, even if one counts each of the ten Crusades separately. Of course, Wikipedia is not an ideal foundation on which to base an argument, not if one wishes it to be taken seriously. I have no doubt that my contention that religion does not cause war in the overwhelming majority of circumstances would meet with more than a little skepticism were I content to rely on an open-access encyclopedia as the primary support for it. Still, it served as a reasonable starting point.

I was not looking forward to the arduous task of sitting down amidst a mountainous pile of military histories and painstakingly assembling a more comprehensive list of wars, nor did I have much confidence that anyone would take it very seriously given my lack of academic standing, but I was fully prepared to do so since there didn’t seem any other way to prove my hypothesis. I had barely begun separating the teetering stacks of books dedicated to ancient and medieval warfare when Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod fortuitously happened to publish their three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars,9 a massive 1,502-page compendium compiled by nine reputable professors of history, including the director of the Centre of Military History and the former head of the Centre for Defence Studies, of what amounts to a significant percentage of all of the wars that have taken place throughout recorded human history. =================================== Now, if it doesn't upset you, allow me to ask a question. You say: "I was unsure - but Ioshka has made my decision for me - religion rots the brain, distorts the truth for its own ends, and cannot cope with criticism." I thought you had no religion.

That you had left Christianity and then left Buddhism and then had become neither agnostic or atheist, just sorta nothing. Whatever the reasons for your religion or lack of it, or your state or non-state, let me be the first to tell you to do your very best to remain unaffected by me and my FFI posts. I don't want to make that decision for you, especially not by quoting something regarding "Religion - the root of all evil." I truly and honestly didn't intend theological consequences for you. I'd have been much happier if you had written back something like: "the info in "Encyclopedia of Wars" is spurrious, a load of crap" and then perhaps provided a link. Who knows, maybe it IS crap... I can't really vouch for it beyond saying that nine reputable professors of history, including the director of the Centre of Military History and the former head of the Centre for Defence Studies sounds fairly reputable. Anyhow, as I said: there's more to evil than just body counts. It's not that easy. And so the question of the thread still stands.

For example, I consider Islam intrinsically evil, yet the body count of their - heaven forbid - eventual demographic take over of Europe is of an entirely different kind. So, take a chill pill. Relax. Go ahead and let IoshkaFutz piss you off, but for God's sake, if you're unsure, (despite agreeing in the past with Gupsfu or Chicklets that religion was a mental disease), read important literature, go on a retreat, meditate, but don't let an answer to BcBob affect you. I had no idea you were on the edge of becoming a Roman Catholic or a Mormon or a Hindu or a Jew or a Sikh. Had I known, I would have simply agreed with BcBob and said "yes, religion's a real killer" and perhaps that would have at least convinced you that religion doesn't rot the brain. “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution.

1906-1945 by IoshkaFutz » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:27 pm Sten wrote: Ioshka - how many of those so-called "atheist" societies actually deified their state leader? Do you consider mindless worship of a state leader and skeptical atheism to be the same thing? This is the famous no true Scotsman argument. As I have the ebook that I quoted to Bunny still open and it deals with this very issue allow me (yet another - GULP!) copy-paste. It is in answer to Sam Harris. Because the historical record of atheism is so bloody, so recent, and so well known, Harris is forced to construct a No True Atheist argument in a preemptive attempt to ward off the inevitable response to his assertion that religious faith causes murder and genocide. . . . the most monstrous crimes against humanity have been inspired by unjustified belief. This is nearly a truism. Genocidal projects tend not to reflect the rationality of their perpetrators simply because there are no good reasons to kill peaceful people indiscriminately. . . .

Consider the millions of people who were killed by Stalin and Mao: although these tyrants paid lip service to rationality, communism was little more than a political religion. In order to deflect attention from the obvious fact that Stalin and Mao, both undeniably atheists, killed tens of millions of people despite a complete lack of the religious faith that Harris claims is necessary to commit such monstrous acts, Harris constructs a No True Atheist argument. Harris: Atheists don’t kill people because they have no good reason to do so. Response: Stalin and Mao were atheists and they killed millions of people. Harris: Then Stalin and Mao were No True Atheists. Of course, Harris doesn’t come right out and present this argument directly, because even a militant atheist would laugh in his face. Instead, he uses several deceptive techniques to try to disguise the fact that he is defending his thesis with a No True Scotsman argument. Notice how much deceptive tap-dancing takes place in just this single paragraph. Harris surreptitiously substitutes “unjustified belief” for “religious faith.” Now, “unjustified belief” is one of his many descriptions of religious faith, but obviously there are many unjustified beliefs that are not related to religious faith in any way.

The subset is not equal to the entire set, and since the two are not synonymous they cannot be exchanged in this manner; this is the logical fallacy known as the Undistributed Middle. Harris also implicitly swaps “an absence of rationality” for “religious faith,” once more swapping the specific subset in favor of the broader set that includes it. Harris states there are no good reasons to kill people indiscriminately, just twenty-six pages after writing that “Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them.” So it’s okay to kill people who believe in dangerous propositions, Harris just wants to make sure that you kill them in a discriminating manner. Unfortunately, he does not inform us precisely which propositions justify execution in his mind, although given the context of the statement and the title of his book, it’s apparent that he has intransigent religious belief in mind. Harris states that Stalin and Mao only paid lip service to rationality, but their murderous actions were perfectly rational given their goals. Stalin was seeking to destroy Ukrainian national identity, while Mao was trading agricultural products for the atomic weapons technology.

It was his “Superpower Programme” that was the motivation behind the Great Leap Forward, sending food that the Chinese peasantry required to survive to Hungary, East Germany, and the Soviet Union. Considering that Mao had hundreds of millions of peasants that he didn’t value and lacked the powerful weapons development capacity that he badly wanted, it was an entirely reasonable exchange, if a diabolical one. Harris claims that Communism was a religion. But however convenient and necessary to his argument this claim might be, it still isn’t true. Communism is a political ideology, not a religion, and moreover, the communisms of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mengistu, and Kim Il-Sung all differed in the details. While each of the six dictators identified themselves as communists, the only belief these mass murderers held completely in common was an atheism more militant than that of Harris himself. “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution.

1906-1945 by Sten » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:07 am IoshkaFutz wrote: Sten wrote: Ioshka - how many of those so-called "atheist" societies actually deified their state leader? Do you consider mindless worship of a state leader and skeptical atheism to be the same thing? This is the famous no true Scotsman argument. Incorrect, and as it is incorrect the rest of your post is rendered irrelevant. I never said they weren't atheists. I asked you if you considered mindless worship of a state leader (Stalinism, Maoism, etc) to be the same as skeptical atheism (Dawkins, Harris, etc). If you do consider these two to be the same, then you're ignorant and you need to read up on the politics and structure of these societies. It's perfectly clear that the worship of their state leaders was similar to religious belief. If you don't consider them to be the same, then you are dishonest. Either way, your argument that atheism causes the massacres of millions of people is not a valid one. It's like comparing the Heaven's Gate cult with Catholicism.

Both believe in Jesus, so I guess by your logic Catholicism was responsible for the murder suicides that defined heaven's gate? Ioshkafutz wrote: Harris surreptitiously substitutes “unjustified belief” for “religious faith.” Now, “unjustified belief” is one of his many descriptions of religious faith, but obviously there are many unjustified beliefs that are not related to religious faith in any way. The subset is not equal to the entire set, and since the two are not synonymous they cannot be exchanged in this manner; this is the logical fallacy known as the Undistributed Middle. Harris also implicitly swaps “an absence of rationality” for “religious faith,” once more swapping the specific subset in favor of the broader set that includes it. The two are not synonymous why? Because you say so? Not good enough. Harris has already defined religious belief as falling under the broad blanket of "unjustified or irrational belief" and therefore his argument is sound. Religious faith is NOT rational, that's the very thing that defines it. Even though you can't be sure and you have no proof that there is a god, you believe there is with a conviction that rules your entire life.

Likewise, the irrational belief that their state leader was godlike was what enabled these leaders such as Mao and Stalin to kill so many people. The people underneath them believed they were godlike with the same fervor that a Muslim believes he has to kill for Allah. The nature of the blind, irrational belief is exactly the same and that is the point that Harris was making. The only difference is that one belief involves a living human being, and the other involves one that lived a long time ago. The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. - Carl Sagan Re: Religion - the root of all evil??? by IoshkaFutz » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:13 pm But you equate the two (what you call blind mindless belief in God and blind mindless belief in living men) and yet they are not equal or else their results would be equal, instead they are incredibly different. So one thing is certain, in the "blind and mindless" department, atheism is worse, far worse. If you're gonna be blind and mindless - as mortals often are - choose God. That much - with the exception of Islam - we can safely say.

Somehow - always with the exclusion of Muslims - their atheist blindness is more blind and atheist mindlessness more mindless. If you state what the morality of atheism is, then perhaps we can argue. But seeing as you can't (you can only tell me what it isn't but not what it is), then you can always claim virginal purity and innocence. Atheists by definition don't HAVE to believe in anything. So as with Muslims, they are not what they claim to be, but what they do. Otherwise they are always angels dancing on the tip of a pin. For instance, they can claim materiality and immateriality at will. They can sponsor advertisements on buses and have long-revered holidays removed, but then can even handily deny their very existence. Outside of God-belief, in the "real" world of individuals, families, groups, societies, is there anything forbidden to an Atheist? Not a single thing. At the moral level it's a huge void. So militant atheism is just a great big militant void. There's no sense even talking about it. Better to discuss single issues. Should a nurse get sacked for offering a prayer?

Should a five year old kid get hassled for talking about Jesus? Atheists are a picture with no frame, an army that can shoot at any real or perceived adversary, kill for any reason. And then they'll find all the seemingly logical and rational reasons to do it and deny it without even a trace scent of hypocrisy. Being above good and evil, they are amazingly free to pursue their goals. If they have none, so much the better, but - as is often the case with mortals (perhaps on account of evolution) desires do pop up. Time to modernize China! Presto whamo, kill off all the laggards! Who doesn't want to become more modern? Time to keep the less productive races from diluting the gene pool (and statistically most of humanity's "best work" has been done by dead white men - so plenty will argue with long and convincing lists in their hands). Presto Whamo... Eugenics. Quite popular with Bertrand Russel, atheist extraordinaire, great knower of things, the man you even have in your tagline. What's that he says?

And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence. - Bertrand Russell "It seems on the whole fair to regard negroes as on the average inferior to white men, although for work in the tropics they are indispensable, so that their extermination (apart from questions of humanity) would be highly undesirable." — Bertrand Russell, Marriage and Morals (1929) Gotta like the "apart from questions of Humanity" business. An error of youth undoubtedly. He didn't want to put the dark folks in the blender because they were good for hard labor in the tropics. Bear in mind the date: 1929. Hi Jelly Roll, there's a guy, a famous atheist, philosopher, God-denier, mathematician, expert in "morality" (not be be confused with mortality) who thinks that your extermination (apart from questions of humanity) would be highly undesirable. And after all you're quite good at working in the tropics! Play us a song! BTW this is well after the proclomation of emancipation!

So as an atheist, go among your own - even your very best - and warn them about "deifying" things. Your dear Betrand deified progress and intelligence. Write a Bible! The Bible warned about deifying things other than God. Tell them not to deify even so-called "good" things like progress, modernity, wealth, equality. You'll be called "irrational, regressive, fascist, etc." and so you're back to square one. Better a few "blind and mindless" (which really only means "commonly and broadly accepted") moral dogmas. If you were a stoic atheist, you'd accept them, if for no other reason than utilitarianism (maintaining social glue). But you're a militant atheist... and that only means destroying the good and positive moral work of many generations with no replacement other than supposed rationality. Well logic and rationality are rarely answers, but means of singling out a wide array of often-contradictory options that are then chosen based on impulses / values. Will you please the crowd though the crowd might need to be chastised? Will you make the crowd suffer, even when it needs to be left to its own devices?

It's whatever comes to your mind. Whatever your goal. You don't have a Thou Shalt Not, you have a Nike swoosh "Just Do It." Hence the long list of murderous atheist dictators. They were their own church. Some were deified, but all had deified themselves... meaning not that they really-really and truly considered themselves gods, - that's horseshit and you know it, but men free of any greater authority than themselves, free to use Bartletts book of Quotations along with any whim and fancy or even serious works such as Darwin's "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life" as a sort of Bible. (Think the "favored races in the Struggle for Life" stuff might have affected young Bertrand Russell's opinion of the Jelly Roll Morton's of the world? It certainly affected Uncle Adolph's!) Free, absolutely free, a picture with no frame. Life with the meaning THEY gave it and they could get away with. I want it all, and I want it now! Stalin didn't really and truly consider himself a God.

He ate and farted and f.cked and was aware that his health was running out and he feared that the German Army was unstoppable. God, as commonly conceived, doesn't do that kind of stuff or fear those sort of things. He's eternal, unfearing, all-knowing, omnipotent. Stalin was very human, very powerful, but not omnipotent, only perhaps desrious of omnipotency. And even the most stalwart of his adoring followers never really-really-and truly considered him a god. So what's with this deification business anyway? It's too easy to slough off militant athism by saying the bad boys were deified and that their ideologies were irrational. They were all atheists and - excluding Muslims - they did worse, far far worse than religionists on their worse day. Deal with it. Atheists can go where angels don't dare to tread. Then whether some bother to budge at all is moot. Freedom! Just look how shamelessly you atheists are free to squirm away with semantics. A few words and there you are pure and virginal, harmless, entirely speculative...

and even ready to put the millions of victims of militant atheism into the same category as those who slaughtered them: the one deified God and the other supposedly deified men. Hey, I like that! It works! Play a little word game and Mao Tse Tung, whose moral papa was Karl Marx as in "Religion is the opium of the people," can squarely and comfortably sit in the same category as all the poor deluded fools - TENS OF MILLIONS! - that he slaughtered. But what happened to "Religion is the opium of the people?" "Oh never mind that. New militant atheism now has ways of keeping great-leaps-forward and racist ideologies from going overboard. Symposiums of atheists, conclaves of atheists will gather to issue prompt warnings as soon as the next atheist politician oversteps the invisible line. Well the declague said "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Atheists have always said: "Thou shalt have no god period." The first were fearful, superstitious, mindless, stupid, the second were proud and purposeful, rational and forward-looking.

Oddly enough, the second did worse on a gargantuan scale, their record so bad, so downright and unmitigatingly evil that the proud and purposeful, rational and forward looking of today, cast the proud and purposeful, rational and forward looking of their own past ranks among the fearful, superstitious, mindless, stupid, of yesterday! I still venerate my saints. Even after all these years. You instead turn your atheist devils into gods so you can villify them as they once villified their victims. On your knees, Sten and go to Santiago di Compostela flagellating yourself! “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945 by sum » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:44 pm Hello IoshkaFutz I am an atheist. However, I do not recognise the traits that you associate with atheists.

I would suggest, although I have not conducted any form of survey, that most atheists live by the Golden Rule and that is their morality. In every day life, I would not think that you could pick me out from the Christian community by the way that I live and relate to others. I regard practical every day Christianity as the Golden Rule with a God as a figurehead. It is only in the rituals that you would notice any difference between me and the Christians. Atheists do have morality. sum by IoshkaFutz » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:41 pm sum wrote: Hello IoshkaFutz I am an atheist. However, I do not recognise the traits that you associate with atheists. I would suggest, although I have not conducted any form of survey, that most atheists live by the Golden Rule and that is their morality. In every day life, I would not think that you could pick me out from the Christian community by the way that I live and relate to others. I regard practical every day Christianity as the Golden Rule with a God as a figurehead. It is only in the rituals that you would notice any difference between me and the Christians. Atheists do have morality.

sum Ciao Sum, You are a stoic atheist, not a militant one trying to undermine anything, but participating in the culture around you, which though fading fast, is Judeo-Christian. I can respect that, I'll argue it, but Militant atheists are extremely dangerous. BTW this has to do with the question you raised on another thread about liberals... and I'm cooking up an answer, inspired in part by Kim Kalb (a conservative Catholic writer) to participate there. Also because, though the comments are "correct," I don't think they really deal with the issue. That thread is important, this one is destined to nowhere. But I figure that now at least, anyone can see that Religion (which in its broadest - nicest and nastiest definitions) can be evil, is not the root of ALL evil. So see you later. “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945 Re: Religion - the root of all evil???

by sword_of_truth » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:51 pm You can't compare numbers because there was a smaller population during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. You have to look at proportion. Atheism doesn't provide any motivation to do anything, by itself, and that is the point. Religion does because it has content. Atheism doesn't have much content, so it couldn't, by itself, cause anyone to do wrong. When we argue for our brand of atheism, we are also arguing against people like Stalin, so they are excluded from our group. It's not a matter of true atheism. It's a matter of demolishing and vigorously rejecting ALL false and immoral doctrines, secular or religious. That is what we advocate, not atheism, alone. Atheism is necessary, but not sufficient.

"...if you want my personal preference say I found out that my wife was cheating with me flogging would be too good a punishment." --fudgy by Sten » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:20 pm IoshkaFutz wrote: But you equate the two (what you call blind mindless belief in God and blind mindless belief in living men) and yet they are not equal or else their results would be equal, instead they are incredibly different. How are their results not equal? A religion with a god that touted the principals of Maoism or Stalinism would be just as bad as Maoism or Stalinism. The only reason we haven't seen a deified living leader that promoted good moral values is because good people don't want to be deified. You don't seem to realize that if the people who lived under these leaders hadn't been so beatific of them, they never would have gotten away with their crimes against humanity. IoshkaFutz wrote: So one thing is certain, in the "blind and mindless" department, atheism is worse, far worse. If you're gonna be blind and mindless - as mortals often are - choose God.

Lol, that's because god doesn't give direct orders because he can't actually talk to you. If we are comparing "God" the character to Stalin or Mao, however, then god would appear to be just as bad as them. Let's not forget that god destroyed the entire population of the world with a giant flood once, something that the Stalins and Maos of the world could only dream of. IoshkaFutz wrote: That much - with the exception of Islam - we can safely say. Somehow - always with the exclusion of Muslims - their atheist blindness is more blind and atheist mindlessness more mindless. But you can't make Islam an exception, because Islam is a religious belief. You don't get to say "with the exception of Islam" - just because you're convinced your god is better than theirs. In the context of irrational religious belief, Catholicism and Islam are in the same category. You can't make a dichotomous argument slamming atheism and fellating religion and then exclude the religions you don't like. If you're going to make the theism vs atheism argument, then at least be consistent.

IoshkaFutz wrote: If you state what the morality of atheism is, then perhaps we can argue. But seeing as you can't (you can only tell me what it isn't but not what it is), then you can always claim virginal purity and innocence. Do you actually read what you write? I CAN'T tell you only what atheism is and not what it isn't, because it's a negative. I CAN'T tell you the morality of atheism, because atheists don't have a common morality. That's not to say they don't have a morality - they get it from their parents like everyone else does - it's just that there is no common morality to equate them all. There are evil atheists and good atheists. The problem with your argument that you are consistently failing to grasp is that you are treating atheism like a positive value, when in actual fact it is a negative value, the absence of theism. You can't lump one atheist in with another any more than you can lump one person who doesn't like dairy products in with another. Your argument is the equivalent of finding a correlation between murderers and people who don't like dairy products.

"Oh, this murderer and this murderer killed X amount of people, and THEY didn't like dairy products. This obviously means that it's better to like dairy products because these murderers who like dairy products only killed Y amount of people. Since you can't state any positive values of not liking dairy products, you can always claim purity and innocence, but I know that not liking dairy products correlates with being a murderer." You are running around trying to correlate a positive value (the deification of a head of state) with a negative value (the absence of theism). What you are continually missing is that this deification WAS almost a type of theism if not for the semantics, it just involved a head of state instead of a god. It may have been the absence of conventional theism, but the blind faith and rapturous belief were still present. I don't have to associate myself with a Maoist, because we have nothing in common except for a negative, a lack. Just like someone who doesn't like dairy products doesn't have to associate themselves with an axe murderer who doesn't like dairy products. Are you beginning to understand now? IoshkaFutz wrote: Atheists by definition don't HAVE to believe in anything.

So as with Muslims, they are not what they claim to be, but what they do. Otherwise they are always angels dancing on the tip of a pin. For instance, they can claim materiality and immateriality at will. They can sponsor advertisements on buses and have long-revered holidays removed, but then can even handily deny their very existence. So what you're saying is, if there existed a group of people who advertised their hatred of dairy products, everyone who didn't like dairy products were automatically part of that group? I think atheists who advertise atheism and abolish religious holidays are idiots. Why should I be categorized as the same as them if we share nothing but a negative? It doesn't matter to me that they think their negative is a common trait - it isn't. IoshkaFutz wrote: Outside of God-belief, in the "real" world of individuals, families, groups, societies, is there anything forbidden to an Atheist? Not a single thing. At the moral level it's a huge void. So militant atheism is just a great big militant void. There's no sense even talking about it. Better to discuss single issues. Should a nurse get sacked for offering a prayer?

Should a five year old kid get hassled for talking about Jesus? Atheists are a picture with no frame, an army that can shoot at any real or perceived adversary, kill for any reason. And then they'll find all the seemingly logical and rational reasons to do it and deny it without even a trace scent of hypocrisy. What the hell are you talking about now? I've noticed you tend to babble once you've laid your initial points down. IoshkaFutz wrote: Being above good and evil, they are amazingly free to pursue their goals. If they have none, so much the better, but - as is often the case with mortals (perhaps on account of evolution) desires do pop up. Time to modernize China! Presto whamo, kill off all the laggards! Who doesn't want to become more modern? Time to please god! Presto whamo, kill off all the infidels! Who doesn't want to be raised up in god's eyes? (BTW, if you're talking about Mao here I think you'll find he killed most of his victims by starvation and overtaxing. I'm not sure where you got "killing off all the laggards" from).

IoshkaFutz wrote: Time to keep the less productive races from diluting the gene pool (and statistically most of humanity's "best work" has been done by dead white men - so plenty will argue with long and convincing lists in their hands). Presto Whamo... Eugenics. Quite popular with Bertrand Russel, atheist extraordinaire, great knower of things, the man you even have in your tagline. What's that he says? And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence. - Bertrand Russell "It seems on the whole fair to regard negroes as on the average inferior to white men, although for work in the tropics they are indispensable, so that their extermination (apart from questions of humanity) would be highly undesirable." — Bertrand Russell, Marriage and Morals (1929) Gotta like the "apart from questions of Humanity" business. An error of youth undoubtedly. He didn't want to put the dark folks in the blender because they were good for hard labor in the tropics. Bear in mind the date: 1929.

Erm, Russell wasn't suggesting that anyone exterminate black people. And I never claimed he was a nice person, I just like that single quote about god's uneasy vanity. By the way, other prominent historical figures also thought that black people were inferior - Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, etc. IoshkaFutz wrote: blah blah blah blah blah Man, you really need to learn to condense your posts and clarify your points. I can't really make head nor tail of the rest of this. I will say one more thing - you seem to think that because religions have rules saying "don't do this" it somehow stops people from doing it. However you'll notice that the rate of crime among theists is much higher than the rate of crime among atheists. How do you explain this? The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent. - Carl Sagan by IoshkaFutz » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:27 pm sword_of_truth wrote: You can't compare numbers because there was a smaller population during the time of the Spanish Inquisition. You have to look at proportion.

In light of its nightmarish reputation, it will surely surprise those who believe that millions of people died in the Spanish Inquisition to learn that throughout the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, less than three people per year were sentenced to death by the Inquisition throughout the Spanish empire, which ranged from Spain to Sicily and Peru.23 Secular historians given access to the Vatican’s archives in 1998 discovered that of the 44,674 individuals tried between 1540 and 1700, only 804 were recorded as being relictus culiae saeculari.24 The 763-page report indicates that only one percent of the 125,000 trials recorded over the entire inquisition ultimately resulted in execution by the secular authority, which means that throughout its infamous 345-year history,25 the dread Spanish Inquisition was less than one-fourteenth as deadly on an annual basis as children’s bicycles. SOT says you have to look at the proportion. By all means go right ahead... and be sure to consider the smaller population, For all its worth the Spanish empireh ranged from Spain to Sicily and Peru.

“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945 Re: Religion - the root of all evil??? by IoshkaFutz » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:48 pm Sten says: But you can't make Islam an exception, because Islam is a religious belief. You don't get to say "with the exception of Islam" - just because you're convinced your god is better than theirs. Interesting... transpose the concept this is like an anarchist (atheist) telling a Democrat (Catholic) that he's no different than a Nazi (Muslim) inasmuch as both have the vice of governance. Yes, atheism is as sweet and innocent little negative as not liking dairy products. But of course... a little mind game et voilà millions of slaughtered get handily bundled with their victims. A strange sort of Negative that regularly goes militant!

Sten says: A religion with a god that touted the principals of Maoism or Stalinism would be just as bad as Maoism or Stalinism. This was answered. Calling them "gods" or "deified" is just poetic licence. The whole thing about a fake god is that he is not God, he is a godless. Tell me with a straight face that Mao or Stalin or their most fervent supporters really thought that those men had the qualities of God as commonly conceived (never mind if truly existant or not), but as commonly conceived. Did Stalin consider himself the creator of the Universe? Truly ubiquitous? Eternal? Capable of miracles? All-knowing? So the parallel only goes so far... to describe huge worldly power... and it is certainly no excuse to squirm away from the crimes of militant, priest-killing, nun-raping, church-destroying atheism. (Very much like the Muslims BTW) and the parallels between militant atheism (as opposed to the stoic variety) and Islam are many and frightening. “The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian.

His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

Question: Which country declared itself the first atheist state when all religion was banned in 1967?
Answer: Albania