Mark Pimentel: I moved to Taiwan with Jack about three years ago. We started this company, Kronos. We do machine learning. We do quantitative research. We watch markets. We do a lot of work in cryptocurrency.

Mark Pimentel: Part of the work that we’ve been doing with Tyler is trying to understand what we can do with Taiwan because we’re here, we’re part of Taiwan. We want to understand what we can do with Taiwan.

Mark Pimentel: We joined the Talent Circulation Alliance. He mentioned that it would be great to talk to you, learn more about what you do and see you, what things that we can together, how we can work together and tell you more about our company. That’s the reason that we’re here.

Audrey Tang: What’s your activity in the Talent Circulation Alliance?

Mark Pimentel: We just started working with Tyler recently. We’ve done some interviews with Tyler mostly about talking, telling him about some of how we got started. Jack and I, we moved here from the US. It was fairly rocky for us when we started because we didn’t know too much about how to create a company here, how to hire people here.

Mark Pimentel: Hank is the CTO of our company. He is educated in the United States, but he grew up at…

Hank Huang: Born and raised in Taiwan.

Mark Pimentel: Born and raised in Taiwan. He joined us about a year and a half ago. He’s been really helpful in helping us grow our company and manage our team because he understands the US culture, as well as the Taiwanese work culture. These are some of the things that Jack and I were struggling with when we started the company.

Mark Pimentel: A lot of the work that we’ve been doing with Tyler is explaining to him from our perspective some of the difficulties that we’ve had as employers and as innovators here in Taiwan, and trying to understand what we can get together working with people in government, as well as others in the private sector, to try to improve things here.

Audrey Tang: That’s awesome.

Mark Pimentel: For example, one of the difficulties that we’ve had in terms of hiring is that we come from a very US centric type of this management culture, where the style of work is one in which there’s more of a teamwork style of culture. Where it’s more widely accepted for employees, as well as management, to challenge each other more often.

Audrey Tang: A little bit more confrontational.

Mark Pimentel: Yeah, more confrontational. It’s not seen as necessarily a…

Audrey Tang: A bad thing.

Mark Pimentel: …a negative type of thing. It’s just seen as a normal type of thing.

Audrey Tang: We do that all the time here.

Mark Pimentel: This is something that was very foreign for a lot of our employees, and was something that was very difficult for us, too. To get them to open up and ask questions. I know that this is something that you’ve spoken about. About trying to create change, especially within the K 12 education system here in Taiwan.

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Mark Pimentel: I have two children here in Taiwan, and they’re in the local school systems as well.

Audrey Tang: Public schools? That’s awesome.

Mark Pimentel: This is something that’s been difficult for them too, because they started off going to school in the US, and then now they’re in Taiwan. They see the change in the school system firsthand.

Mark Pimentel: One of the things that we’ve been trying to grapple with is, what we can do as employers to decrypt this type of change as well. These are some of the things that we deal with, and that we talked to Tyler about.

Audrey Tang: That’s awesome. Anything from the two of you?

Jack Tan: Also, what we do is abstract. These guys come from quantitative trading backgrounds, high frequency. We’re applying all these novel approaches to cryptocurrency so that when we recruit here or do branding here, it’s hard for people to understand what we actually do. That’s another avenue that you’re going down with Tyler, right?

Audrey Tang: Do you think it’s a mostly communication issue, or a culture issue in terms of the legibility of your work?

Mark Pimentel: I think it’s both.

Audrey Tang: It’s both.

Mark Pimentel: Yeah, I don’t know. What do you think?

Jack Tan: Legitimacy. Trust.

Audrey Tang: Negative association with the word cryptocurrency. [laughs]

Jack Tan: For startups. Usually, Taiwanese culture, at least on the parent generation is more conservative. We’ve had issues when we’re hiring. Then the parents step in and say, “Oh, this is a startup, don’t go there. It’s very risky.”

Audrey Tang: “Wait until it’s five years old.”

Audrey Tang: That is a very common advice.

Jack Tan: Five years?

Audrey Tang: It is advice for five years, is no longer a start up.

Hank Huang: I see. Two more years to go.

Jack Tan: The reputation for us is starting to shift because we’re in year three. The past couple of years, it would be common for a lot of the other startups, they are facing the same issues.

Audrey Tang: Definitely. What about the communication side? Are your flagship products easily conveyable to policymakers or to investors who have more experience?

Mark Pimentel: More and more so.

Jack Tan: More and more so?

Hank Huang: We have two separate companies now.

Audrey Tang: Is this Wootrade?

Hank Huang: Wootrade is just about democratizing the access to financial products.

Audrey Tang: That’s easy to explain.

Hank Huang: It’s really easy. You get on the platform, you can do anything you like. It’s free to trade. Kronos is harder to explain. It’s like, how are you making the money? Are you predicting the direction? Are you doing arbitrage? It’s a mix of a lot of things. Where the signals come from? What are alphas? It’s so hard to explain.

Jack Tan: If you can’t explain that well, then sometimes people think well, maybe it’s a fraudulent company. Maybe it’s a scam. It’s difficult at times.

Mark Pimentel: There’s not a lot of companies here in Taiwan that do this type of work both in terms of cryptocurrency as well as on the quantitative research side. A lot of times when we interview candidates, when we approach people at job fairs, or schools, there’s a lot of apprehension about this type of work because of that.

Mark Pimentel: Some of the work that I’ve been doing with Tyler as well, is to try to understand how can we educate young people about different career paths. Part of it also is that a lot of times, young people, they gravitate to what they see is very common amongst their peers. They find it difficult to step outside the boundaries of what their friends do.

Mark Pimentel: Part of the challenge that we have is to try to show them about alternate career paths, and especially with new industries that can be very difficult.

Audrey Tang: What about community building? I’m also running this startup ish thing called the RadicalxChange. It was originally Puttering, Glenn and friends. One of the things we do is to make sure that there’s local chapters and meet ups and things like that, because those ideas were radical.

Audrey Tang: If you connect it to like 100 different cities, then people feel that there’s a sense of tribe, and on their sense of belonging, they may be the only one in the municipality to hear about RadicalxChange. If they log in online, under immersive environment, there’s hundreds of different cities going on. Are you connected to that sort of communities?

Mark Pimentel: Right now we’re not. We’ve spent some time going to some of the schools here, doing more education, more outreach. That’s something that we do want to do more of. Sometimes we’re not really sure what is the right avenue aside from going to the schools. Happy to learn more if you have any suggestions.

Audrey Tang: The more active communities in Taiwan, they share this hashtag called GZero or gov0, which is not a organization per se. It’s more a shared hashtag of people who see a government service usual additional service something.go.tw. They think that “Hey, I can do it better.” Then just register something that is gzero.tw.

Audrey Tang: Changing an O into a zero gets you into the shadow government, I guess, and deliver the service in a more open source and better way that always was the open source and creative commons copyrights, civic ads.

Audrey Tang: When the public sector says, “Hey, it’s a really good idea,” whether it’s a bunch of visualization or air quality visualization or a distributed ledger, to make sure that multiple writers to those air quality measurement devices can cross correlate with one another into one.

Audrey Tang: They can be merged back into the government quite easily without going through procurement of things like that because it’s open source to begin with.

Audrey Tang: It’s a pretty sizeable community. There’s at any time thousands of people and it’s responsible for a lot of counter COVID measurements last year. That’s one of the communities that I’m more directly connected to.

Mark Pimentel: OK. We should take a look and see how we can get involved. In terms of blockchain and cryptocurrency, what’s your view for globally in Taiwan?

Audrey Tang: In Taiwan, one of the places where people can say, even though there may be some negative associations with scams and things like that, but people can say very easily and plainly that I’m working on cryptocurrency. It’s a good thing that in Taiwan there is a sector around this already.

Audrey Tang: It’s interesting how many Taiwanese startups do standardize and even though the gas price may be high at times, it seems like something a de facto standard for each thing, which I don’t have a good explanation. It’s purely anecdotal.

Audrey Tang: I also think that we do have a lot of people here who care about blockchain governance spot, not necessarily the cryptocurrency application, which may be the pilot application, but in Taiwan, we have a pretty strong fiat anyway.

Audrey Tang: People think about using it to reduce the auditing costs like for environmental measurement devices is a cool way to just get legitimacy fast or in a cross country like foreign labor and migrant workers, things like that, to make sure that a contract is on both sides and things like that. It’s more like an accountability and legitimacy building device.

Audrey Tang: Most of the applications have seen on the Power Blockchain Alliance on the TBA, which is supported by the Taipei Computer Association and the National Development Council but I’m not sure whether you’re active in the TBA or…OK.

Mark Pimentel: We have been just heads down building in front of us and then immediately Wootrade .

Audrey Tang: OK.

Mark Pimentel: I don’t know if our vision, though, how to realize our vision in the context of Taiwan, Fiat banking controls and the current regulations because we’re heading down this DeFi and open financial market path. As far as we can tell, the Taiwan regulatory system around financial transactions and investment products are very strict and old school.

Audrey Tang: The fintech sandboxes in particular because it’s heavy government supervised. The cases that go into the sandbox, only when they deliver something that no existing traditional services could deliver and for these other complementary products and services, the sandbox is useful.

Audrey Tang: If the old system can do it just slower or more costly, like optimization based ideas don’t tend to go through the sandbox, that smoothly is a fact.

Jack Tan: What’s your advice for cryptocurrency companies or companies like ours, in terms of trying to advance cryptocurrency awareness and legitimacy, particularly within Taiwan?

Audrey Tang: Some real experiences for come on people, especially legislators and their assistants.

Jack Tan: That’s the reason for assistance.

Audrey Tang: …and for them to have a first hand experience on some aspect of that. That helps.

Mark Pimentel: What’s the best way to do that?

Audrey Tang: I remember in my office, which is not here, this is my cabinet office, but I have a real office…

Audrey Tang: …and a Social Innovation Lab. We run for a couple of years mobility, hackathons with self driving vehicles that are of tricycles, very slow, looks completely harmless, very cute and inviting people to hack it in the sense of adapting it into everyday needs.

Audrey Tang: After the local city councilors and legislators and things like that see that they can easily adapt these designs into something looks completely harmless, it’s free mighty open source hardware and all that, they become much more willing to take a larger step in their self driving vehicle sandbox, which is more permissive than that of the tech sandbox, which was the previous sandbox act.

Audrey Tang: Exposure to the first hand experience helps in the sense that if the legislators think that this thing is going to cause trouble, at least they know about such trouble. Otherwise, if they don’t have the first hand experience, it’s boundless and then if you have boundless risk, then you don’t do anything right.

Mark Pimentel: What are the different avenues to have these legislators try out our services or products first hand?

Audrey Tang: There’s plenty of commissions, councils in the parliament. There is the Digital Economy group. There’s the Digital Governance group. There’s many groups in the legislation by the MPs that are more willing to try out these new things. I was such as stick out there activities.

Mark Pimentel: Got it. Cool.

Audrey Tang: Just give them something easy and fun to use.

Mark Pimentel: Not many exist in crypto that are easy and fun.

Audrey Tang: Crypto kitten?

Mark Pimentel: That’s true.

Hank Huang: NFTs.

Mark Pimentel: NFTs, I guess.

Audrey Tang: NFTs are easily explained much more easily with kitties than, say, artwork. [laughs] With all the respect.

Mark Pimentel: Interesting, is there anything you think a company like ours or a group like ours could help with?

Audrey Tang: I mostly think about the legitimacy of the concepts involved in cryptocurrency I’ve taken in the past couple of years to say Dotty’s distributed ledgers or just ledgers because it’s the most neutral, the term with the least negative or positive connotations.

Audrey Tang: In Taiwan. If I say, “分散式帳本” nobody raises eyebrow, but if I say, “區塊鏈” [laughs] it means something else entirely. I would think it’s both a communication issue and the legitimacy issue.

Audrey Tang: There’s very little we can do directly on the legitimacy issue because that’s just a natural progression of how these emerging technologies that we can improve on the communication side by making sure that we deliver fair and science based responses due to things like that.

Audrey Tang: I just watched the news yesterday, and the news was saying that Bitcoin now burns through electricity, like the mid sized country, and things like that. [laughs] If I replied to the journalist asking me that, saying things about if they’re in 2.0, and things like that. Then, they not necessarily all get it.

Mark Pimentel: Yes.

Audrey Tang: If there’s some communication material that can say, “It is just a phase. It will pass.” It’s not necessarily a bad thing, because electricity generators are in a place that’s far off the population centers. It delivers positive value, which may be true to a point. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: Anyway, [laughs] there are communication strategies that can make people think twice before blindly criticizing the crypto space in general. That’s something we can all help because we’re all stakeholders here.

Mark Pimentel: It’s more on education side.

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Jack Tan: As a company, we’ve tried to be a lot more transparent and open than other companies, especially on the trading side, something that we want to do. Even when we started the company, a lot of companies that do trading activities tend to be very close and tend to be regarded but we’ve tried to be more open about it.

Jack Tan: This is actually caused us some difficulties as well because it can be difficult to do, for instance, a lot of machine learning algorithms and work with a lot of proprietary technologies and also try to be open even within your company because there are competitors that will try to take your intellectual property.

Jack Tan: I know that you’re a big proponent of openness and I saw on your Twitter, you even have a poem that talks about machine learning…

Audrey Tang: Collaborative learning.

Jack Tan: …and collaborative learning. So what’s your…

Audrey Tang: …and singularity.

Jack Tan: I’m actually curious about your thoughts about how that thinking plays into intellectual property and specifically trade secrets and that type of those contexts.

Audrey Tang: When it comes to think about your Mandarin company name is literally a singularity.

Audrey Tang: Or unicorn clarity.

Audrey Tang: Surely intentional.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, my current work, it’s easier to go full open source. We don’t have essentially shareholders. We have co op members which vote every four years. [laughs] The organization is already at work. That’s what republic means when we don’t have too many words.

Audrey Tang: It is already a republic that’s governed by what we in the blockchain cause participatory governance or stakeholder base governance. It’s quite democratic anyway. The governance incentives align with my personal incentives to be maximally transparent and open.

Audrey Tang: We have no problem at all, to convince the, for example, Cabinet Office saying that our transcripts are going to be free of copyright even though that we could only publish by request, according to a Freedom of Information Act. We preemptively publish it before anyone asks it.

Audrey Tang: That’s more radical, but that’s considered under generally right pass for the republic. We have no problem getting approval from the Cabinet Office. With that said, I do see dads for cutting edge research, the funding to get such research data in the first place, necessarily requires some “intellectual property,” especially on the trade secrets side.

Audrey Tang: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I’m a big admirer of John Carmack, who releases the id Software’s Doom engine, Quake engine and things like that. Essentially, whenever he wrote out a new game, the game dealt with the previous one, two generations before it goes open source.

Audrey Tang: Which of course fosters learning, and which in the long term actually is helpful to id Software too, because it makes it much more easy for them to recruit people who are already versed in ecosystem and so on. I think the time lapse between the cutting edge research and eventually commodity, if you communicate it in a transparent enough manner, then it’s to the benefit of everyone.

Mark Pimentel: It’s a good a point. We use some of these floating point functions.

Mark Pimentel: Does that answer your question?

Jack Tan: Yeah.

Mark Pimentel: How did you decide to go this path that you’re on? I’m sure you have so many different options. What’s in your future?

Audrey Tang: In Taiwan, we’re looking at this post COVID. We’re not yet post, [laughs] but it feels like post COVID. We’re looking at a situation where most of the Silicon Valley or other startup Nexus and the switch to at least partially in some fully teleworking.

Audrey Tang: We’re seeing a record number of influx of people who are like you, who enjoy working on international issues, but choose to base in Taiwan due to, I don’t know, either the healthcare or the food or both.

Audrey Tang: These are our two main selling points. [laughs] In the future time is going to be much more transcultural. We used to have a pretty strict immigration law, even for it is entrepreneur visa or Gold Card that’s still far less transcultural than I would like. Starting last December, it’s all relaxed.

Audrey Tang: Nowadays, the Ministry of Science and Technology will sponsor you a Gold Card, even if you have never been to Taiwan if you have the potential to contribute to science and technology.

Mark Pimentel: Obviously, potentially.

Audrey Tang: Everyone.

Audrey Tang: It’s now essentially, if you want to be in Taiwan, in 30 days, you will be in Taiwan. After half a year start to enjoy healthcare and family and everything. This is a truly different, not on immigration, but on the ideas of innovation.

Audrey Tang: The Buckminster Fuller, put it best, when you see an old system that’s full of problems, instead of fighting or struggling against it, build a new one that makes the old system obsolete.

Audrey Tang: For all the drawbacks, and conservativism of the Taiwanese angel, and investments and communication and academia and all that, it’s not necessarily a bad thing when we were specializing in hardware and have to interval cycles at the hardware industry.

Audrey Tang: For the Internet based services support works like the work you do, we’re now seeing many angel investors and so on that is based in Taiwan, but works toward a global audience. This is the new system, a new core, that’s much more accelerated and much more world or planetary facing.

Audrey Tang: That’s a really good direction to work towards. Instead of changing the old system, we’re saying their old system is excellent to produce semiconductors…

Audrey Tang: …that can power this other work. Let’s build a new startup ecosystem without interfering with the old one.

Mark Pimentel: Does the government sponsor any default community for these Gold Card visa holder?

Audrey Tang: Yes. Actually, the gold card portal, goldcard.nat.gov.tw is built by the Gold Card holders. It’s actually a gov0 move, because the website and the digital service wasn’t good at all. They started this GitHub project called taiwangoldcard.com. That forced the original website, I also contributed.

Audrey Tang: Once they reached critical threshold, this team then gets hired as consultants, like mentors to the MDC. Now if you check out goldcard.nat.gov.tw, it’s brilliant. It doesn’t look like a government website anymore. They have so many gatherings into them.

Jack Tan: That’s something we should get involved in.

Mark Pimentel: Jack and I had a lot of difficulties when we first moved here to understand how do we stay in Taiwan.

Mark Pimentel: How do we manage this process. Even now we’re trying to understand how do we get citizenship.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, you’re already the pre COVID pioneers.

Mark Pimentel: We were here before, even since COVID we’ve actually hired a few people from the US, but then…let’s hear from the US and now they’re living here. They’re working for our company and they’re very happy to be living here.

Mark Pimentel: We also hired many of the few students that were supposed to go study abroad and they deferred their admission at several schools and they’ve chosen to Stanford one and another at Carnegie Mellon…

Jack Tan: Carnegie Mellon.

Mark Pimentel: They just come to work at our company. In one case, he’s actually deferred multiple times and we’re hoping that we can actually keep.

Jack Tan: [laughs]

Mark Pimentel: …post COVID and so I guess it’s a function of what happens to US, in our culture, and how much we pay them.

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Mark Pimentel: We’re hopeful that this…in some ways, it’s good for Taiwan, definitely, companies like ours that we can reverse this brain drain.

Audrey Tang: It’s called circulation.

Audrey Tang: Speaking of circulation, in the Taiwan Tech Arena, the TTA is also setting up an office just for circulation, for not just Gold Card holders, just people who didn’t know how to find a school for their kids in Taiwan or they didn’t know how to navigate the bureaucracy of setting up new companies or things like that.

Audrey Tang: That’s also one of the places where, of course, we all can kind of test drive its guidelines and recommendations but the more eyes on it, the better, especially people who have gone through the more difficult path and so on.

Audrey Tang: In addition to NDC, which I already mentioned, to go to Portal and Blockchain Alliance, the Ministry of Science and Technology with specifically its TTA, may also be a good community to connect to word.

Mark Pimentel: OK. All right, TTA.

Jack Tan: TTA.

Audrey Tang: The Taiwan Tech Arena台灣科技新創基地.

Jack Tan: OK.

Audrey Tang: It is a pretty heavenly place.

Mark Pimentel: I see.

Hank Huang: We should get more involved in the community.

Audrey Tang: There are some meet ups literally every day.

Mark Pimentel: Really?

Audrey Tang: Yeah.

Mark Pimentel: OK. Do you attend these meet ups sometimes?

Audrey Tang: Usually by prerecording.

Audrey Tang: I do visit and because in the Social Innovation Lab, which is my real office, they hold many activities stands as well because I went there every Wednesday and sometimes other days as well. So if I happen to get around and just have lunch together.

Jack Tan: I see. OK.

Mark Pimentel: What do you spend most of your time on these days?

Audrey Tang: It varies by the day of the week [laughs] like Monday is for team gathering, for working with the conference to my office and so on to make the weekly plan. Wednesday is office hours. It is working with social innovators who can pretty book my time. Thursday is meeting and board of Science and Technology meetings, the more formal stuff.

Audrey Tang: On Tuesday and Friday usually just tours around Taiwan or just go to the places where our young previous mentors or our local social innovators, they have a local issue that spans more than two industries is the interagency issue and sometimes they raise it by petition on the joint platform.

Audrey Tang: Sometimes by going to the Youth Advisory Council and anyone who reach 5,000 petitions, even if they are in the south of Taiwan. I go there and have a collaboration meeting with them and connecting to the central government through a conference, if necessary.

Audrey Tang: Such collaboration meetings can pinpoint a more constructive solution to emerging phenomena such as E Sports or things like that. It’s a multi stakeholder meeting.

Audrey Tang: Since my partnership with foreign service…

Audrey Tang: …in the past couple of years, 07:00 to 9:00 and 5:00 to 07:00 PM [laughs] has been reserved for great international connections. The first one was the East Coast of the South and North America and even in Europe and Africa.

Audrey Tang: I talk to about five times per day.

Mark Pimentel: My gosh.

Audrey Tang: It’s like three jobs in one.

Audrey Tang: …there is the start of facing part of that. There’s the bureaucracy facing of the international face.

Mark Pimentel: I wanted to ask you which one you like the most.

Audrey Tang: I like it when the three of them work together. I like the Presidential Hackathon that’s also something that many people in the blockchain space have contributed to.

Audrey Tang: It’s an annual hackathon and every champion team, five of them every year, gets this trophy from the president and is a micro projector an intern on projects that the president promising whatever they did in the past three months would become policy in the next 12.

Audrey Tang: It’s an executive power as hackathon prize. No money but a presidential promise.

Mark Pimentel: That’s much better.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. All the winning teams need to be three sectors, so all those three sectors need to work together as a team. It’s also worth checking out because there’s many creative use… for example, the Zero knowledge Range groups checking the health conditions of people entering marathons without revealing their full medical records.

Audrey Tang: That’s a good Zero knowledge application is not necessarily blockchain, but it’s something that conveys a more positive outlook on crypto, like crypto derived technologies.

Audrey Tang: There is also Humomorphing encryption plays a large part. So there’s health and environment seems to be the focus in the past few presidential hackathons and that’s also something that can connect you as the private sector to the public service, to the social sector of the community much more because then you have to come up problems to work on.

Mark Pimentel: Do you have any ideas on things that we can do as a company in particular? One of the things that we’ve been wanting to do is to do the things that are still more…all the things that we can do to help. Some of the resources that we have, for instance, are we have lots of data. We captured data from all the major crypto exchanges around the world.

Mark Pimentel: At some point, I have some residents, youth and professors, and every so often I’d pitch them if they want to do some research on this, but other than doing research on other topics, they don’t know the right professors. It takes us a lot of time to pitch this and it’s not our core focus.

Mark Pimentel: If you ever have ideas or if there are things that you think we can help you with, something that we’d be happy to think about as well.

Audrey Tang: OK, I’ll keep that in mind. You’ve my email, so…yeah.

Mark Pimentel: Curious to know of, how do you see decentralized finance playing out, Audrey? Let’s say, decentralized finance in Taiwan gets really big. A lot of the Taiwanese wealth gets into this ecosystem where there’s no KYC, no AML, and the returns are much higher than the banking sector can offer here. How do you see this playing out?

Audrey Tang: First of all, it’s not like there’s no KYC. People will be motivated to do some sort of KYC, just not necessarily by the traditional institutions, like the reputations through peer to peer evaluations and things like that. These are like regtech, but by the community. That’s the idea of DeFi, not supervisory technologies. These are regulatory technologies developed by stakeholders interested in self regulation, and so on.

Audrey Tang: I’m all for it. I think it’s a great thing that we can experiment with different ways of governance and accountability giving, and things like that. Taiwan’s society…A lot going for it is that people are eager and willing to try new things, and share what they have learned about the properties of such new things with one another in ways that improves at least legibility, if not legitimacy.

Audrey Tang: On the other hand, the social sanction is also very high. If something is perceived to be not reliable, not secure, like violating privacy norms, or things like that, then you can also face a very large backlash.

Audrey Tang: The development of accountability giving and also legitimacy giving technologies is essential, if anything like DeFi is to capture a large share of…mindshare, not just the share of money from the Taiwanese society, you should go for it.

Mark Pimentel: Go for it?

Audrey Tang: Yes. Am happy about it, because if you don’t give the legitimacy through regulatory technology developed by the community, then sooner or later you’ll face social sanction. Taiwan has that really robust social sector that takes care of this.

Mark Pimentel: Interesting. Thank you. Anything you like to know about us, we’re pretty transparent.

Audrey Tang: Everything’s on the website.

Mark Pimentel: It’s not much there.

Jack Tan: Not transparent.

Audrey Tang: There’s many coverage by the tech press about you. I’ve read that but it’s quite clear, which is why I asked my first question, aside from the outre everything else the journalist seems to be struggling to…

Audrey Tang: …as these three paragraphs, but essentially reiterating what you have on your Web page?

Mark Pimentel: We’ll figure out how to better communicate ourselves.

Jack Tan: Do a better job.

Mark Pimentel: …get a few press events for the Q&A and everything with them.

Hank Huang: Because it’s not good enough.

Audrey Tang: It’s not a necessity at this moment because you’re, after all, not like facing everyday customers, that you’re not working off any port kiosk function.

Audrey Tang: …as some other crypto players are [laughs] but even if you’re not working in family [laughs] port function, it helps to have a clear portrayal for the social values, not necessarily environmental, but it’s becoming more and more important nowadays, at least the social value, the positive social values that you bring to the table.

Audrey Tang: That will make connecting to the TTA, FC or other stakeholder community is much easier.

Jack Tan: Yes, it’s a very good point.

Mark Pimentel: It’s a very good point. What’s clear to us the value, but we’re just about communicating that outwards. We’ll do a better job.

Audrey Tang: Yeah. All right.

Mark Pimentel: Thank you so much.

Jack Tan: Thank you.

Hank Huang: Thank you so much.

Mark Pimentel: You think we can take quick photos with you?

Audrey Tang: Yeah. Maybe outside.

Mark Pimentel: OK.