Audrey Tang: I am really, really thrilled to participate in the SEWF in Edinburgh. It brings the whole context of how 10 years ago it was just a fringe movement and now it’s taken over the world.

Susana Galvan: So huge, right?

Audrey Tang: It’s great, especially in the policy forum. The commitment that I see is phenomenal. We probably can’t say that even five years ago. It’s a real movement now.

Audrey Tang: I had a lot of interaction with the steering committee, and so on, basically branding our Tomorrow Asia event, which is next May in Kaohsiung as a partnership event with the SEWF. Of course, we probably won’t call it SEWF, per se, mostly because it’s actually Asia-Pacific, so we’re calling it APSES, Asia-Pacific Social Enterprise Summit.

Audrey Tang: The agenda setting, we’ll make a rolling arrangement. For example, this year the agenda setting for Tomorrow Asia is mostly done by SE Insights, but the Care For Us Foundation, the Children Are Us Foundation, is jointly a co-organizer.

Audrey Tang: Next year the Care For Us will be the main organizer and agenda setter, but they will bring along Impact Hub Taipei as the co-organizer. Maybe the year afterward Impact Hub Taipei will be the main organizer, and maybe they will bring I don’t know who else, B Labs, or whatever.

Audrey Tang: The idea is that we show diversity of Taiwan’s social entrepreneurship scene. Also, we focus every year on different Sustainable Development Goals based on the city that we’re in. This is my name card nowadays.

Diane Hsu: The new one. Thank you.

Susana Galvan: Mine is so boring. It’s the same one. You have it already.

Audrey Tang: The flip side is our main message.

Susana Galvan: Your foundation is the Sustainable Development Goals? You build everything from there?

Audrey Tang: Yes, the 169 SDGs. Nowadays, as I present it in the policy forum as the digital minister, I’m mostly working on 17.18, which is reliable data accountability, 17.17 cross-sectoral partnership, 17.6 open innovation and not colonial innovation, and, like everybody, understand this core vocabulary.

Audrey Tang: The 17th is right here in the middle. It brings all the sectors together, instead of fighting against each other. Through reliable data and cross-sectoral participation we can increase education through sustainable consumption. We can fix the pollution and sustain life underwater using sustainable regions, cities, and so on.

Susana Galvan: You bring everything in the middle.

Audrey Tang: The whole point of working on 17 is so that everybody knows what everybody is doing. We’re going to have the map of all the SDG efforts. It could be from the university social responsibility programs. It could be from the CSR programs. It could be from social entrepreneurships.

Audrey Tang: For example, a few weeks after this we’ll have the anniversary of the Social Innovation Lab. We’ll have a large show, a booth, maybe 30 or 40 social entrepreneurs showing their experience, their services, products, and stores over the past year. Our entry ticket is that you have to choose the goals that you represent you’re working toward. You see a lot of SDG icons in our booth.

Audrey Tang: Indeed, actually, to use the Social Innovation Lab there’s no rent, fee, or anything. All you have to do is you declare which of the 169 you’re working toward. That’s the entry ticket, and then you can use the venue for free.

Susana Galvan: That’s a free entrance, SDG ticket.

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Diane Hsu: Those social entrepreneurs, they are the private company, or they could be the university?

Audrey Tang: Which is why we broadened the plan to be the Social Innovation Action Plan rather than Social Enterprise Action Plan, which was the previous name, Dr. Feng Yen’s name.

Audrey Tang: The reason why we chose innovation instead of enterprise is that enterprise is just one kind of innovation, and it’s business model innovation, essentially. There’s many university programs or co-ops that are not, strictly speaking, companies that are not registered to the Ministry of Economic Affairs. They’re not, properly speaking, small and medium enterprises according to our current law.

Susana Galvan: According to the label?

Audrey Tang: We’re fixing that, but before we fix that we need to include them.

Susana Galvan: If you call it innovation you can bring in these other...?

Audrey Tang: We call them the groups who do innovation. Then it includes practically everybody. It also makes it really, really clear that it includes the co-ops, the non-profits, as well as companies and hybrid organizations as long as they achieve the Sustainable Development Goals.

Susana Galvan: That’s the bottom line, really?

Audrey Tang: Yes. It’s willing to share their innovation model with the world through social innovation, because social innovation is not just solving social environmental problems, it’s also doing it with the society. Then, as long as you can commit to be open and you work on any of the SDGs, you’re a social innovator.

Audrey Tang: Social enterprise still is, of course, a very important part of it, but equally important is the universities and everybody else.

Susana Galvan: You bring the other people. No, that’s great. There will be this event happening when?

Sheau-Tyng Peng: 17th November, at one anniversary.

Audrey Tang: Right, that’s our anniversary.

Diane Hsu: The one that we went to last time.

Susana Galvan: Thank you. I’ll have a look.

Audrey Tang: It’s this place. I’m sure you’ve been here before.

Audrey Tang: Even this soccer field is designed by people with Down syndrome and turn out to be brilliant artists.

Susana Galvan: Amazing, yeah.

Audrey Tang: This is perfect place. For the annual Social Enterprise AP Summit, APSES, that will be in Kaohsiung in May. I forgot dates, but Sheau-Tyng can look it up. Because it’s in Kaohsiung, so our primary targets for next year, we’ll probably focus on resilience, because it’s Kaohsiung, so it will be on the water, or sustainable urban-rural development, and things like that.

Audrey Tang: Maybe the year afterward we will choose some other SDGs. Actually, it’s exactly the same as the High-level Political Forum at the UN. They choose some topics every year, but every year the 17th is always part of it because it’s all about cross-sectoral partnership.

Susana Galvan: Because the name of the plan has changed to social innovation, are you the lead of this plan?

Audrey Tang: Yes, I am.

Susana Galvan: You’re the main lead for this...?

Audrey Tang: I would say I’m the main coordinator. I’m like the convener, but because, as you know, I don’t give or take orders.

Audrey Tang: I’m just a facilitator. Yes, that’s my name on the tin.

Audrey Tang: For the next four years.

Susana Galvan: Obviously, you’ve met Tristan in Edinburgh. You know that we do some social enterprise work and also social innovation in the region. Tristan is our regional lead. If there’s anything that we could do to collaborate, to work with you, we would be really delighted. We’ve done some research work in other countries where they’re looking at policy.

Susana Galvan: I’m trying to get the details of that research, but we can send it to you afterwards to see what kind of research we’ve done and see if that would be, maybe, of use to you in Taiwan. Or maybe we could help with some scoping and research of the landscape in terms of supporting your plan, because we’ve been doing it for other places, like Korea.

Diane Hsu: Singapore.

Susana Galvan: Singapore, as well.

Diane Hsu: Thailand, Philippines.

Susana Galvan: We’ve got all the methodology ready to replicate. If that might be something useful, it can be done immediately.

Audrey Tang: As you can see, this is our main research agenda for the next four years. By social value evaluation we mean not just SROI or traditional. It’s relatively new. I shouldn’t say traditional, but mainstream impact assessment methodologies, because for all their benefit they focus on maybe one entity and its impact. By social value evaluation, we mean something that is more ecosystem based.

Audrey Tang: When I visited the UK, the Minister of Fun, PCMS is working on something like that as part of the civil society strategy to do innovations in democracy, and to measure the citizen confidence index, or whatever they call it nowadays. That can measure the wider impact of social innovations on the society as a network, rather than just specific product and services as a social return of investment.

Audrey Tang: The SRI is still important for investors, but for policymakers the network-based analysis is very important. The Sustainable Goals itself is a good framework for that already because we see the SDG dashboard and we can evaluate based on how close we’re meeting the goals. We do our own voluntary national reviews using compatible methodologies.

Audrey Tang: We’re also very eager to involve more academic, social sector, and private sector contributions to our VNR, because our VNR at the moment, especially around target 17, is mostly with the "diplomatic allies." The diplomatic allies are more developing in nature. It doesn’t reflect the full spectrum of Taiwan’s help in actually very advanced fields to friendly countries but not "diplomatic allies."

Audrey Tang: The SDG framework and social innovation framework can help to complete the puzzle so that we can list them alongside, or even within our Voluntary National Review. That’s also one of the plans that we’re working very closely with the foundations founded and sponsored by the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Audrey Tang: We’re diversifying their cases so that they can talk to other people and invite them to Tomorrow Asia, as well. I won’t name names, but there’s many foundations.

Susana Galvan: In that case, we will try to get some information about the research side of things and see if that can contribute in some way to what you’re already doing. I know you’re doing something. We’ll send you a link, and have a look. Maybe something that we can replicate here.

Audrey Tang: If it has any connection to foreign aid that is perfect, because sustainability-based foreign aid is something that everybody says, but there’s very little international consensus on what to measure and how. Anything you can contribute on this regard we’re more than happy to collaborate.

Diane Hsu: Tristan did mention that the Methodology Research Lab between British Council and those other local country. It’s always the SEUK. That would be a good research report for Taiwan to understand the whole landscape of that social enterprise...

Audrey Tang: Because I intend to be in Addis Ababa, and so if I can see some applied research around their region, not necessarily the country, but that region, that would really help the context.

Susana Galvan: Fantastic, then we will do that.

Diane Hsu: I do have some idea about working with the university to raise them as a center of the hub for the community or for the environment around that school to bring the social enterprises, either within the arts, like education, to raise up the profile of the university, as well.

Audrey Tang: That’s awesome. I also noticed in the SEWF this time, you and Scottish government are co-organizers.

Susana Galvan: Yeah, which is good.

Audrey Tang: Which is rare.

Susana Galvan: I know. It’s very rare.

Susana Galvan: Of course, the Scottish government will always be friendly towards Taiwan, as well, for obvious reasons.

Audrey Tang: That’s right, but what I’m saying is that maybe for APSES we’re also looking for international partners, not necessarily sponsors, but to send the message through.

Susana Galvan: To have the international partnership with.

Audrey Tang: Because the CEIS, the folks running the SEWF, will help us to introduce speakers, some messaging, and basically be a partner in communication. If we can say it’s not just the Scottish, that would be awesome.

Susana Galvan: It’s fantastic.

Susana Galvan: The APSES, when is it going to be? You can send us information. It’s OK.

Audrey Tang: Do you have...?

Diane Hsu: The date?

Sheau-Tyng Peng: It’s actually 10 to 12th, May.

Diane Hsu: 10 to 12th.

Susana Galvan: May 2019?

Sheau-Tyng Peng: We are still discussing it.

Audrey Tang: The main SDGs, they’re already picked, and so whatever information we have at the moment. I must stress that for Tomorrow Asia this year, next year, and in future, long as I’m the minister in charge of social innovation, the government never sponsor more than half of the budget. The government never sets the main SDG goal agenda.

Audrey Tang: This is strictly a social sector-private sector agenda setting moment. We do provide support, because in many cases we’re non-profits as well as ministries. We all have our annual goals, accountability, and things like that, so we’ll involve as many ministries as possible. This year we involve something like 10 or 12 ministries as sponsors, but none of them will control the agenda.

Susana Galvan: How do you manage to keep them happy without having to go throw anything?

Audrey Tang: What’s the trick?

Susana Galvan: Yeah, what’s your trick? Because that’s so difficult with ministries.

Audrey Tang: The trick, very simple, is that my office is actually a assemblage, a cross-section of ministries.

Audrey Tang: Aurora is actually from Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the MoFA still pays her salary. I don’t do management. Everybody sets the agenda for themselves and finds their own projects. Yeh Ning here, is from the NCC. We have people from Minister of Culture, Minister of Interior. We have an agreement with the Secretary General that we will not poach more than one person from each ministry.

Susana Galvan: That’s the agreement.

Audrey Tang: Technically the team can be 34 people. Now it’s 22.

Susana Galvan: You’re growing.

Audrey Tang: Still, the team is really horizontal and there’s no over-dominating.

Susana Galvan: You’re very equal, right?

Audrey Tang: Yes, extremely equal.

Diane Hsu: Also, transparent.

Audrey Tang: Transparent, as well. There is no ministry here that dominates the voice of the plan forming. Everybody says this is really a new culture. On the other hand, they seem to be doing quite well.

Susana Galvan: I was just thinking, because this kind of team arrangement is so good, whether you might consider having some internship into your team, maybe from outside government. I’m just thinking out loud.

Audrey Tang: We have internship program. Every year we have maybe 30, 40 interns.

Susana Galvan: I’m thinking maybe from British Council. Someone from the region, or something.

Diane Hsu: I’ve been thinking about that part. We could do something like that to do outreach, but we have to sort it out with the personnel’s office.

Audrey Tang: We work with international research fellows, actually. There’s a French research fellow, Fiorella, that works really closely to us. Because we really work out loud, so actually it’s all on the Internet anyway. If you drop by, every Wednesday most of our outreach team is there on Wednesday. It’s the office hour. I’m there, personally, from 10:00 AM to 10:00 PM, and Sheau-Tyng is there.

Audrey Tang: Most of the vTaiwan gang is there every night for dinner, as well. If anyone from your community consistently shows up every Wednesday, then they naturally integrate into the team. That’s how Fiorella and the research fellows got in.

Susana Galvan: That is good to know. That would be a good way to learn. As we’re trying to do more in this space we’re also very keen to learn from what you’re doing. If there’s an opportunity to get exposure to it, then that would be really good.

Audrey Tang: Especially dinner. Dinner is always there.

Susana Galvan: Always, so if you’re around...?

Audrey Tang: We have a chef and kitchen for that purpose.

Susana Galvan: On Wednesdays?

Audrey Tang: When we were co-creating the space the number one wish is that it opens until 11:00 PM every night so that people have plenty of time to discuss after dinner. The second wish is that we have a chef and a kitchen, which we do. The third is that the minister must be here every week.

Susana Galvan: That’s awesome.

Diane Hsu: Good deal.

Susana Galvan: That’s really great. No, that’s really useful. We’ll take this. We’ll send you some information about the research, maybe that’s one area, because it’s very practical. We’ll send you some information. See what you think, and then we’ll take it from there.

Audrey Tang: We’ll work with the Impact Hub Taipei Care For Us and they will send you whatever they have for planning. If it could be not just a Scottish or SEWF partnership thing that would be excellent international message.

Diane Hsu: We’ll see how we, British Council, can also...

Susana Galvan: Also, to try to bring some partnership for the event. We’ll get advice on that.

Diane Hsu: Also, it’s Tomorrow’s Asia, so we can also spread that message within the East Asia country, as well.

Susana Galvan: With our colleagues, because in countries like Korea, Singapore, or even Japan, I think they would be very interested. Indonesia would.

Audrey Tang: Our colleague Shuyang was just yesterday in Korea talking about social innovation. It’s a public event, but next to the Mayor of Seoul, who is a huge supporter to this whole idea. They are also very interested in joining. There’s also some Hong Kong advisors and Japanese people in the advisory committee.

Audrey Tang: The social impact investment part, specifically, South Korea want to lead that discussion, which is why Professor Feng went to that event that you co-hosted, which is why I attached myself to her through telepresence.

Susana Galvan: Was is your avatar?

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Susana Galvan: I remember your avatar.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. I’m happy to engage in more things like that.

Susana Galvan: Australia, as well, right? Australia the people are all social innovation.

Audrey Tang: Also, Akina Foundation from New Zealand is really active, as well. They run a workshop in this year’s APSES. They have a lot of methodology to share, as well. They helped doing the storytelling of my Edinburgh conversation. It’s all on YouTube.

Susana Galvan: I’m going to have a look at it.

Audrey Tang: I think that the New Zealand people, they are not in there just for economic reasons. It’s very cultural diplomacy for them, as well.

Susana Galvan: We will think about all that. A lot of information. [laughs]

Diane Hsu: We did. It’s great.

Susana Galvan: Thank you for your time. I’m so glad. How was the weather in Edinburgh? Was it manageable?

Audrey Tang: It was OK.

Diane Hsu: Was it getting cold?

Aurora Tsai: She was dressed like this only.

Susana Galvan: Really?

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Susana Galvan: That’s really good. I like the logo, actually. It’s fantastic. Thank you so much. We will follow-up, Audrey.

Audrey Tang: Thank you so much.

Susana Galvan: I look forward to seeing you again.