Audrey Tang: We’re recording.

Mayumi Oshige: Oh, thank you so much. My name is Mayumi, and I work for the Japanese newspaper “Yomiuri.” We wanted to interview you because the Japanese government is going to have a digital ministry from September 1st, and we wanted to report about it to the teenagers [laughs] in Japan. Can I go through the questions already?

Audrey Tang: Yes. Yes, definitely. We will make a transcript, and it’s published after you do, and you will not be using this video.

Mayumi Oshige: What do you mean?

Audrey Tang: This recording is just for your writing purpose.

Mayumi Oshige: That’s all right. We’ll not use the video.

Audrey Tang: Otherwise, I’ll have to dress and makeup and everything.

Mayumi Oshige: I know.

Audrey Tang: All right. Please go ahead.

Mayumi Oshige: We would like to know firstly, about Taiwanese digital society. What can you actually do with a smartphone? What can people do to use the government service with the smartphone because here in Japan we don’t really use smartphone to get any registration card or anything? I would like to know about the advanced Taiwanese society.

Audrey Tang: Sure. In Taiwan, we have www.gov.tw, which have bases here. It covers all the services from the time that someone is born, getting an electronic transcript, household registration, go to school including scholarships subsidies, employment including labor insurances.

Audrey Tang: When someone gets old, there’s a national pension, and finally, funeral allowance, [laughs] insurance for accidents. It’s a full life cycle, quite literally.

Audrey Tang: I think it’s easier if you ask what cannot people do with a smartphone. For what I understand, marriage and divorce are still required showing up in person. [laughs] Otherwise, I don’t think there’s much that can’t be done through Internet.

Mayumi Oshige: How can old people use those services with Internet because some of the people, I believe, are not quite capable of using the Internet?

Audrey Tang: The idea is not that we’re asking the old people to use these services. The idea is that we’re bringing these services to the old people. The old people who, for example, cannot or do not want to pre order the masks, or to register for vaccines or things like that online, they can go to their nearby convenience store, their nearby pharmacy, their nearby post office, their nearby market, and supermarket chains.

Audrey Tang: I’m missing a few actually. Anyway, many things. [laughs] Cosmetic stores, very important too. [laughs] These local places are staffed with people, either with professional training like pharmacists, or with a dedicated machine, the kiosks like in 7 Eleven, or FamilyMart, and so on. All these, either kiosks or trained professionals, are happy to help the elderly. Nearby police stations and schools are also helpful.

Mayumi Oshige: I see, so there are people who physically help elderlies at the shops?

Audrey Tang: Yes, and once the elderlies learn how to navigate the kiosk, for example, they can teach other elderly people. They are also among the people who assist.

Mayumi Oshige: Of course, younger generations, they are eager to use the Internet. Buy a smartphone and access to the government services. Oh, I see. OK, that’s very interesting. I don’t know.

Mayumi Oshige: Skipping that subject, would you tell me about the famous face mask [laughs] application amid COVID 19 initial outbreak? How could you develop the application, only in three days?

Audrey Tang: It’s not my idea.

Mayumi Oshige: I read there some…

Audrey Tang: It is someone in Tainan. The civic technologist, I think Howard Wu, his name. He initially wanted just to save time because people were sending on his family and friends live chat rooms, “This place don’t have masks, that place run out of mask,” and so on.

Audrey Tang: He thought, “Maybe, I’ll just make a map where people can pin their reports.” We don’t need to search through the live chat history, which is not easy to search anyway. He managed to open up this idea to a group of people called GovZero or g0v, which are tens of thousands of civic technologists who want to improve digital services together. I am part of it.

Audrey Tang: When he introduced the idea, I immediately saw, instead of relying on the volunteers to report, which may be out of date and so on, we can actually make the data much more accurate, because all the pharmacists actually already keep real time inventory of the ones sold is just a National Health Insurance Agency display this in a big table, and people don’t want to read those big tables anymore than they would searching long line messages in group chats.

Audrey Tang: By convincing the National Health Insurance administration to release this data every 30 seconds, as what we call g0v API, it provides the accurate input data map of how are you and eventually more than 100 people require, so I didn’t do either of these two things that just connected them together.

Mayumi Oshige: That’s right. But still, because with your engaged, people get to know and probably the Taiwan itself can use that app, right?

Audrey Tang: Yeah.

Mayumi Oshige: It’s just amazing that I just wonder how those digital technologies people can use developed in Taiwan. Because Japan is still very light how they involved.

Audrey Tang: We support People-Public-Private Partnerships. The people part is the social sector or the civic technologist who come up with the idea and pilot, like just voluntarily share it with other people who want to join this new way to visualize face masks inventory or to check in on the venues are using a QR code or pre order their vaccination booking and so on.

Audrey Tang: They do so without government support or knowledge. They just simply do it. But once they gain a certain amount of popular support, the government noticed that, but because Japan were a liberal and democratic society, the government cannot actually tell them not to do this. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: Even when those new developments who looks at old government service look bad, we cannot do anything that’s authoritarian like telling them to shut down. It’s impossible. We have to join them.

Audrey Tang: The second stage is that we work, engage with the open innovation ecosystem and say, “What do you need? Do you need a map service that costs nothing instead of Google Map,” which keeps charging you… reliable data and so on.

Audrey Tang: I call this reverse procurement is like they are the service delivery. We, the government, are their vendors who we are like, “This system integrators.” It’s them telling us what to do…because in a traditional government procurement is we are telling the business because we’re buying their service. In this case, reverse procurement, is the people, the social sector demanding data out of us. It’s the reverse relationship.

Audrey Tang: Then we tell the private sector, “Hey, we already have this way of mass rationing and pre order mask and so on. Do you want to join?” Then the convenience stores, pharmacies, markets and so on, they join a system already prototyped and amplified by the civic technologist and the public sectors.

Mayumi Oshige: What I want to know is, how could that reverse procurement work in Taiwan? Here, in Japan, government always tell the people what to do.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. The reverse procurement is not a new idea in a sense code for Japan’s contribution both during natural disasters and also during COVID is also like reverse procurement because when they did the Tokyo Metropolis Stop COVID dashboard, it’s not a procurement. [laughs] They just did it themselves.

Audrey Tang: The Tokyo Metropolitan government gave them official address, official website. Quite the same, but the design, the communication and so on is entirely driven by people. Obviously, Japan can do that as well. This requires a shared value. Everyone needs to agree something is important because otherwise the volunteers would not engage this project.

Mayumi Oshige: I see. Thank you. I would like to know, going back to the mask app, when you find the information on SMS or your community, why did you think it was a good idea and why did you think that the government can be engaged with this?

Audrey Tang: Because the people and Howard Wu asked for help. He was saying I owed Google Map this much dollars. He was saying that because original design for his friends and family, but they’re probably around Tainan City. When other cities want to use it, just like cities around Japan, they all want to use the Tokyo Metropolitan dashboard service.

Audrey Tang: There’s no way that the Tokyo Metropolis government can support these many cities. It would rely on the innovations in these cities and technologies in these cities in order to make it work on a national level instead of just on a city level.

Audrey Tang: Howard Wu posted the things that were blocking him publicly, sharing what’s blocking him. I thought many of these they have quality and so on. This is better if the government can support him. I just took his wish list in a sense and talked to the head of the cabinet, the premier. The premier said, “Yeah, it’s a really good idea. Go for it.”

Mayumi Oshige: The speed was really quick?

Audrey Tang: It was like two hours or something.

Mayumi Oshige: Why can you have such a short, how do you say it, decision making takes only short times?

Audrey Tang: I think, the idea is that we’re not operating on the traditional procurement schedule which requires public bidding and the entire process. We didn’t pay Howard Wu anything and he didn’t pay us anything. So, in a sense, we’re both volunteering to produce something but we’re not in a contractual relationship.

Audrey Tang: When I convinced the National Health Insurance Administration to provide the data, it’s not just for Howard Wu, it’s also for many others, actually more than one hundred different developers. It’s like a distribution. Again, most of the public procurement law exist to prevent the kind of exclusive access, to prevent the idea of favoring one vendor over the other.

Audrey Tang: It’s a fair process, but by going through open data and open API, we’re benefiting everyone and when you’re benefiting everyone, paradoxically, you can move faster because you don’t need to justify why you’re working with this person.

Audrey Tang: We can say, “No, we just need this kind of service.” Anyone performing to this API can provide this service. We’re not saying that this is just for map, actually, LINE chatbot appear very quickly, too and it’s not procurement on either directions.

Audrey Tang: By contributing to the Commons, the open innovation models, we remove the roadblocks, preventing corruption and so on. There is no way to corrupt in this open innovation cycle.

Mayumi Oshige: I see, thank you. I would like to go about that school in Taiwan now. How do junior high, high schools in Taiwan adapt and make good use of digital in classroom? Do they have, each one of them has tablet, or they use digital text books or something?

Audrey Tang: The so called smart classroom, of course, is sort of based in Taiwan, but I must also confess that last year we didn’t engage smart classroom that much, because we didn’t have [laughs] anything significant and then in that situation. Mostly there are for after school communication or the after school collaboration and so on.

Audrey Tang: Only this year, and only for two months or so, did we actually use these digital classroom tools in a large scale, because the students remain at home or they can actually still visit school and use the digital equipment sphere. But it’s not in the same classroom anymore because of the pandemic requirements.

Audrey Tang: Because of that, the use really increased and the digital collaboration and so on, become a common sense now for the junior high school level teachers, but last year it wasn’t like that. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: Coming September, I think people will return to school. We envisage a hybrid format, where that teachers can allocate some remote collaborative learning with other schools together.

Mayumi Oshige: Together.

Audrey Tang: Or even with senior high schools or universities together using digital tools. If something only involves a single class, I think they still use face to face modality.

Mayumi Oshige: Oh, I see. Is there any argument about using digital textbooks are not good for students? Or maybe it’s costly?

Audrey Tang: I think it depends on how the teacher runs the classroom. The idea of digital textbook is not about taking a book in paper and turning it into digital, but rather, it’s about getting students the ability to make something during classroom.

Audrey Tang: It’s about a switch from the lecturing format to a problem solving format in the class, itself. So, for the teachers that are willing for the students to post questions, to jam on the Jamboard during the classroom, the digital classroom is very good.

Audrey Tang: But, if the teacher is still more comfortable with the lecture format, then many may see that digital classroom as taking the power away from them. It all depends on the teacher.

Mayumi Oshige: I see. So, is it already happening in some classroom in Taiwan like some teachers use digital and…

Audrey Tang: The idea is that we also rise to each individual school and teacher to choose which classes are good to use such modalities and which classes, badminton or something. [laughs] Of course, not all sport classes take place in VR. It’s up for the individual teacher to make such a decision.

Mayumi Oshige: OK. It’s not like the government orders all schools to use this and that and this and that, it’s more like…

Audrey Tang: We provide the necessary infrastructures, so, all the schools have very good high bandwidth. They have sufficient electricity and air conditioning.

Audrey Tang: But, even for the most populated in tablet areas, like the Taipei Municipal City, I don’t think there’s a top down mandate that says these classes can only be taught using digital textbooks. It’s there. It’s a tool. The teacher and the class together make use of the tool in the way they deem appropriate.

Mayumi Oshige: Sorry, I don’t know if I understand right. You said the job of the government is to provide infrastructures. All those infrastructures are already there?

Audrey Tang: Yeah, they’re ready here. For example, it’s the government’s job to provide a…I’m using an analogy and metaphor. We, of course, should provide metro service, bus service, high speed rails, or whatever. It’s our job, but we do not say for you to commute from Taipei to Taiyuan, you must take the metro.

Audrey Tang: For people who want to take the metro, it’s our job to make sure it’s reliable, affordable.

Audrey Tang: There are people who do not take the metro and drive their own car for one reason or another, and it’s our job then to make the roads well paved and things like that for the car to go to the destination. We don’t think that forcing everyone on the public bus or on the metro is a good idea.

Mayumi Oshige: All right. If I’m a student in Taipei, I would like to use a tablet and make a digital textbook, so that I can do a lot of work with it, with my own idea.

Audrey Tang: We have free access. You have free access to the online course, and you have free access to Internet service.

Mayumi Oshige: Once I decided to do so, can I start it from today?

Audrey Tang: Yes, of course.

Mayumi Oshige: OK, so that’s probably the biggest difference between Taiwan and Japan because if I’m a Japanese student, I want to use a digital textbook in the classroom from today, but probably I cannot because there is not enough resources like a tablet itself or the Internet is not good.

Audrey Tang: Yes. I think the point here is that people should make the decisions freely, but the government’s role is to provide appropriate resourcing infrastructure to make such choices possible.

Mayumi Oshige: My question is, did Taiwan already provide all those infrastructures?

Audrey Tang: In terms of connectivity, electricity, tablet access, and computer access, yes.

Mayumi Oshige: OK, I understand. Thank you. What are the pros and cons of digital society? It’s a little vague question, but do you think the digital society, it is so called, is good?

Audrey Tang: Well, the pro, that the good part is that we’re all neighbors now. We’re in different time zones, but if we care about the same thing, I can see you very clearly. I can see you smile and nod. If we only have a telephone, then I don’t see you nodding.

Audrey Tang: I can share the website addresses to you, so the digital society will definitely come next. The people who are otherwise separated in space or in time together, this is its benefit.

Audrey Tang: On the other hand, if people who are previously uncomfortable with some other cultures, some other ideas, or some ethic, traditions, and so on, but suddenly connect very closely together, there are also discomforts.

Audrey Tang: People, previously see the news channels, and maybe they see something that makes their life harder because they wasn’t aware that something bad is going on, but the traditional news channels are gate kept by professional journalists, who make sure that they only report a well sourced, fact checked material.

Audrey Tang: The journalism tradition is that, if things go wrong or if your report is a mistake, we admit it immediately and so on. It has the rigor. That’s the journalism.

Audrey Tang: In the digital world, everyone can share news, but not everyone is a journalist. [laughs] If someone become aware that on SNS what they share was wrong, maybe they make more of this information to justify their action, which is something a journalist would never do.

Audrey Tang: When they have a lot of followers on SNS, more than large newspapers or large news channels, then this creates a problem because people will tend to believe this sensational polarized take on things.

Audrey Tang: Bringing people together could also be a problem if people do not have the competence in media like the journalists do.

Mayumi Oshige: OK, thank you very much. I understand very well. I heard that your parents are journalists?

Audrey Tang: Yes, both of them are journalists.

Mayumi Oshige: You have a good understanding about journalism?

Audrey Tang: Yeah, the rigor, the training of journalism.

Mayumi Oshige: Last question. I’d like to ask you to give a message to Japanese students, including what they should do to make good use of digital in their teens.

Audrey Tang: My main suggestion is to focus on competence, on making something, not on literacy, on receiving something, because in the digital world, the more you make, the more you share. The more you engage, the more you understand the possibilities, the potentials.

Audrey Tang: The more you receive, the more you watch, and so on, then the more you get into the idea that the Internet is just like this, or it’s just like that, but the Internet is a place with infinite possibilities, waiting for you to make it. The more you make, the more the future will appear here, through you.

Mayumi Oshige: Thank you so much. Sorry, one more question. Can I?

Audrey Tang: Yes, of course.

Mayumi Oshige: I read your book, and you’ve mentioned about Japanese digital ministry that they should’ve…

Audrey Tang: Yeah, digital agency. Yes.

Mayumi Oshige: Yeah, digital agency. You said that as a suggestion, they should collect the opinions from public?

Audrey Tang: Yes, also engage the civic technologists, and maybe convince them to work in the government. I believe, around a hundred people will work in the new digital agency that are not career public servants.

Mayumi Oshige: No. Why would you think so?

Audrey Tang: Because I have this monthly communication with Professor Jun Murai-san in Japan. We talk about the digital ministry a lot. He offers a lot of good academic understanding of the digital development in Japan. This is what we talk about every month.

Mayumi Oshige: You think that civic technology is very useful for the digital agency upcoming in September?

Audrey Tang: The civic technologists, the people who make civic technologies are very important. The digital agency, of course, have many jobs but one of the most important, I believe, is to connect people together. The civic technologists are already people who connect their community, the activists, and the government data and services together, so they are the natural connectors.

Audrey Tang: When you are making a new agency focusing on connecting people, as one of its main missions, working with those connectors is important.

Mayumi Oshige: Do you think that this agency will help people in here, Japan?

Audrey Tang: What’s the most important is how people are willing to help this agency. [laughs] Because it’s needed, right?

Mayumi Oshige: Interesting.

Audrey Tang: It’s only as good as how good people want to make it. So instead of saying that it should do everything, maybe we can say, what can we contribute as civic technologist to this vision.

Audrey Tang: This is the idea of g0v, it’s never waiting for the government to do something, it’s always say, “let’s do the things which we want the government to do first, and show them how to do this.” That’s how the mask map, the vaccination booking, and SMS checking appear. If they say, “We wait for Audrey to do something,” then these thing would never happen.

Mayumi Oshige: I see. I understand. Thank you so much for today, taking your time and I will send the publication when it come out.

Audrey Tang: Definitely. I’ll also send a transcript to you and the full recording afterwards. Thank you.

Mayumi Oshige: Thank you so much.

Audrey Tang: Bye bye.

Mayumi Oshige: Bye.