Lisa Moon: Oh, thank you.

Audrey Tang: I’ve read the slides that they prepared for me, and it’s great introduction to all your work, network, and the local. It’s your first time here, or?

Lisa Moon: It is my first time in Taipei, but I’m so excited to be here and learn about the amazing work that you’re doing in the country. Of course, Nancy and I have been working together for many years now, so it’s a privilege to be here.

Audrey Tang: Excellent. In Taiwan, we’re now having this index of people who work in social innovation so that you can very easily discover like-minded organizations. It’s SDG-indexed, meaning if you see, say, no poverty or sustainable economy, that’s 12.

Audrey Tang: You can very easily find like-minded people doing similar things in the network. It’s a way to get people from the corporations, from the co-op movement, from the non-for-profit sector, and even universities to build coalitions toward common goals. It just went online, so I had to mention that.

Lisa Moon: That’s exciting. Congratulations.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, it’s called SI Taiwan, on the si.taiwan.gov.tw website.

Lisa Moon: That’s amazing. How do organizations become, are able to be listed on this? Can they self-elect in, or have you identified the ones that…?

Audrey Tang: Yeah, starting next month, there’s going to be a regulation for the registration. People in the for-profit organizations, they have to provide part of their charter, like the logging of their mission, as well as annual reports of their benefit report to show the impact that they’re actually having.

Audrey Tang: Now, people coming from the not-for-profit sector, of course, also have to show their fiscal accountability report and how their sustainability missions is aligned with the actual expenditure of the not-for-profit.

Audrey Tang: If you’re a co-ops, it’s something else entirely. [laughs] Basically, we’re adapting to each organization, but to have the partnership for the common goals through this registry, which is cross different sectors.

Lisa Moon: That’s fantastic.

Audrey Tang: If anyone buys from this, procures continuous food, as we call it here – 續食, or 盛食 as in 豐盛, right？

Nancy Liu: 盛食, yeah.

Audrey Tang: “Abundant food.”

Nancy Liu: We don’t use the word 剩食…

Audrey Tang: Leftover food. You don’t say leftover, you say abundant, or things like that, if it’s integrated into the supply chain. If it’s more than $5 million anti-dollars per year, then I personally go out and give them an award. It’s what we call social buying power.

Audrey Tang: All this way is just to get the corporate think beyond CSR and think it as a sustainability strategy. That’s the movement that I am trying to just give some contribution to.

Lisa Moon: Wow, fantastic. That’s very interesting. It’s a very innovative way to think about it as well. That’s great.

Nancy Liu: Do you want some about the GFN, what they do in the world?

Audrey Tang: I read about it on the website.

Lisa Moon: You know it all. No, seriously, it’s true.

Lisa Moon: Hopefully, you could figure out what we do from the website. We’re trying to be better at that.

Audrey Tang: Your website’s pretty good, actually.

Audrey Tang: It’s properly responsive. You can view it on mobile phone. It’s a great experience, so very comfortable website.

Lisa Moon: Thank you. I’m glad this is recorded, so I can share it with my communications person.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. You can quote me on that.

Audrey Tang: They’re doing a fabulous job of explaining the hunger, the waste, and how to reconfigure the cycle. This really is good communication material.

Lisa Moon: Oh, thank you. [laughs] That’s fantastic. One of the things that I think is progressive about the way that you all are thinking about things – and one thing I wanted to hear from you – is specifically how you see the digital transformation playing into your view on social innovation.

Lisa Moon: One of the things that we’re grappling with is how do we leverage these technological tools to become much more efficient in food redistribution?

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Lisa Moon: Also, reduce costs, because so many of our members are located in countries where it’s extremely difficult to have capital-intensive infrastructure.

Audrey Tang: Exactly. Taiwan is somewhat privileged in that, because we have broadband as human right. Even in the most rural places, or in the indigenous lands, or even in offshore islands, you’re almost guaranteed to have 10 Megabits per second. Otherwise, it’s our fault, of the National Communication communication.

Audrey Tang: He is a delegate. We’re doing very well on that. Unlimited 4G connection is about $15 USD per month, so it’s very affordable. Because of that, we can assume that everybody have media link. Based on that, there’s a lot of social innovation that you can just do like this.

Audrey Tang: People who record their video messages, uploading them on blockchains, distributed ledgers for mutual accountability. People who measure air pollutions. For example, these all 2,000 points are all citizen scientists.

Audrey Tang: They don’t rely on any government material and just set up those very cheap, less than $100 USD, stations to measure air pollution, to upload it to the distributed ledger. The government just, we can’t beat them, so we join them and say, “Where are the places that you want an AirBox, but you cannot get into?”

Audrey Tang: There’s the industrial parks, because they are private land. It turns out we own the lamps, so we can hang the AirBoxes there, or offshore islands. North of Pescador Island, we’re going to have wind turbine power plants, so you can hang AirBox there.

Audrey Tang: Basically, we play complementary, not dominating the social sector’s agenda, but complementing the social sector, where their power cannot quite easily reach. This is mostly because I think in Taiwan, the social sector have a decade of head start.

Audrey Tang: Before we even have presidential election, which was in ‘96, there’s already a decade or more after the lifting of the martial law for the social sector to gain legitimacy.

Audrey Tang: I don’t think this is easily transferable, but it also means that whatever social innovations that Taiwan can gather, you usually see partnerships between the social, the private, and the public sector. The end results of these, like the AirBox, can be very easily redeployed, because it’s all open source.

Audrey Tang: Meaning that anyone can download the software and change the software. For example, we contribute – in “we,” we say the social sector contributes – to, for example, Time Bank, which requires a lot of software to manage.

Audrey Tang: There is no plausible Time Bank without software support. Because they are based on public blockchains, or they are based on open source software, we make sure that everything that is entering this kind of experiment, like there’s the self-driving tricycles.

Audrey Tang: Again, it’s open hardware. People can tinker it to look however they like and fit better with the society. Most concretely, I would invite anyone who want to look at the social innovators to, for example, just this Saturday in the Academia Sinica, there is a large hackathon going.

Audrey Tang: Anyone with a social issue to solve, but don’t have the programming expertise, can go onstage and go a five-minute speech and just recruit designers, coders, and whatever to make a prototype happen within a day.

Audrey Tang: Then they just start meetings every week. Go to hackathons is my first recommendation. My second recommendation is to look at the social enterprises, social entrepreneur that emerges from those hackathons, that did find impact investment, and to learn about their business models.

Audrey Tang: We give out award, like the Asia-Pacific Social Innovation Partnership Award, APSIPA, so that we highlight all the cases from the Asia-Pacific for useful collaboration. Like there’s one between Carrefour Taiwan…Carrefour being that market thing.

Lisa Moon: Of course, yeah.

Audrey Tang: And the Taiwan, what do they call it, Animal Society Protection Association, or something like that. An advocacy organization, usually not associated with Carrefour.

Audrey Tang: They worked on a co-branding campaign. Carrefour started carrying free-range eggs, free of animal cruelty products, and things like that. They work extensively with the association on a co-branding marketing campaign.

Audrey Tang: That case is the most unlikely cases of partnership, the more likely that we give out award to. Those partnership cases, many of them are in the NPO hub, freshly established in Taipei. Maybe you would like to have a visit to the NPO hub and learn from those unlikely partnerships.

Lisa Moon: How are you defining social impact?

Audrey Tang: The social innovators here in Taiwan, we use the SDGs as the common index. There’s 169 different beautiful logos to use.

Audrey Tang: If you can identify with any 1 of the 169…Basically, whenever we have a Presidential Hackathon, for example, you see the cohort looking like this, and each one, a very specific, 1 of the 169.

Audrey Tang: It’s very rare that if you work for a social innovation and benefit for the whole society that you find your mission not represented in the 169 goals, because original design was, “No goal left behind,” right?

Lisa Moon: Exactly.

Audrey Tang: We use that as the common index.

Lisa Moon: It’s a very big umbrella.

Audrey Tang: That’s right, that’s right. No goals left behind.

Lisa Moon: [laughs] I’m curious. Obviously, we’re very interested in food loss and waste. What type of activity are you seeing in the social innovation sector specifically on that, outside of the food banking initiatives?

Audrey Tang: Actually, I think is, is it also Carrefour? It must also be Carrefour who also have this, its own food programs that continues the shelf life. At the moment, it really requires a legal contract for it to happen because of the food safety law here is rather strict.

Audrey Tang: That’s because people collectively lost trust in the institutions to protect food safety some 10 years ago. That resulted in one of the most strict food safety laws. Indeed, within the administration, we have an office dedicated to food safety.

Audrey Tang: We only have two of those offices, one for food safety and one for cyber security. You know how serious this is. Basically, it really requires a good legal underpinning. It’s not just software code, but also legal code as well, to not run afoul of the food safety issues.

Audrey Tang: I would say that most of the innovations that I’m aware of is around the design of the contracts of how the software reflects the contracts, how to attribute accountability along each way, how to take photos. You probably know more than I know, but there’s many innovations happening in this way to lower the already very burdensome administrative cost associated with food continuation programs.

Audrey Tang: That’s the main social innovation. I know that people have been clamoring for a special section for food continuation in the food safety law, but we’re on the last session of the parliament, of this parliament now. It’s very unlikely to introduce new laws. It would probably have to wait until next January.

Lisa Moon: OK, very interesting. That’s fascinating. I think it’s so unique, this kind of support for the public-private partnership. In terms of especially digital and information tools, like I mentioned, we’re really seeing that, with the advent of technology in emerging markets, you’re seeing retailers, for example, being able to better categorize their surplus product.

Lisa Moon: That information then can be very quickly transmitted to the food bank, where they happen to be based. Then the food bank can then connect charities that are around where the retailer is, regardless of their size.

Audrey Tang: Very much so.

Lisa Moon: If it’s a big retailer, like a Carrefour, obviously, they have a lot of surplus on a daily basis. Even smaller corner stores or convenience stores, a charity can come by and pick it up, really within a couple of hours’ notice.

Lisa Moon: We’re seeing really great success in those types of technologies. What we’ve found is that the private sector is willing to actually pay for that, because they, of course, it’s great PR.

Audrey Tang: It’s also in their interest.

Lisa Moon: Exactly, because they don’t have to pay the landfill, the surplus product. We’re very interested in seeing…It’s been rolled out, for example, in the United Kingdom. It’s being rolled out in Canada.

Lisa Moon: We’re also supporting pilots of it in Colombia, and really thinking, is this a way to reduce costs and get more surplus recovered for the purposes of hunger relief in other countries?

Audrey Tang: Awesome. That’s great.

Lisa Moon: Yeah.

Audrey Tang: I mostly learned about this from the Carrefour anti-food waste project. They have a dedicated project for that. It’s not just in their store, but rather also in bookstores, such as the Housebook60.

Nancy Liu: Ah, 書屋花甲.

Audrey Tang: You’ll probably know that.

Nancy Liu: Yeah.

Audrey Tang: Carrefour basically tried to modularize their SOP, the standard operation procedure. They partnered with, it call itself a bookhouse, but it’s actually a café, so it’s very confusing. I’m sure that they have books there as well.

Lisa Moon: Hard to say.

Audrey Tang: To have a shared refrigerator and with a good SOP for it to replicate. I think they’re doing OK, and they’re getting more visibility now.

Lisa Moon: Oh, very interesting. They’ve tried to do a similar project like that in Paraguay and then in Shanghai as well. They’ve good success. It’s a great way to build community, too, I think. It’s fascinating.

Pi-Ling Ku: I would say that for the food banks in Taiwan, actually the Mr. Fang’s, that’s very much the…

Audrey Tang: Community’s project.

Pi-Ling Ku: Yeah, community-based food bank. Later this afternoon, I actually, because Lisa’s coming here. We have organized a meeting to have the less informal, the meeting with 1919 and Andrew food banks.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, that’s another one.

Pi-Ling Ku: All of us, we are doing Taiwan island-wide.

Audrey Tang: Andrew is really also very scalable.

Pi-Ling Ku: Yeah, two of them, they are serving individual household. We are probably the only one serving the small to medium sized NGOs. We’ve been founded since 2011, over eight years, and serving the organizations. We’re also the only certified member in Taiwan, of GFN.

Audrey Tang: I know. I’ve read your slides.

Pi-Ling Ku: We are thinking that, for this trip, probably, as one of the members of food bank, we are thinking about to promote the World Food Day. That’s in October 16th. Earth Day, everybody knows here Earth Day, but not many people here knows the World Food Day.

Audrey Tang: The World Food Day, that’s right.

Pi-Ling Ku: We are thinking of building, and thinking about that. Starting this year, we co-work with other big NGOs, starting to promote the World Food Day.

Audrey Tang: That’s excellent.

Pi-Ling Ku: That’s serious activities be under planning and building. We are thinking about, is that possible, because we will have some activities during the October. Is that possible to invite Minister Tang as one of the speakers, keynote speakers? Is that possible? Maybe later, check with your…

Audrey Tang: It’s a Wednesday, right?

Lisa Moon: It is.

Audrey Tang: It is a Wednesday.

Pi-Ling Ku: The activities will be in Saturday and Sunday.

Audrey Tang: The following Saturday?

Pi-Ling Ku: No, October 12th and 13th.

Audrey Tang: The previous Saturday? Then I will be in Osaka.

Nancy Liu: Osaka, yeah.

Audrey Tang: If it’s the next Saturday, then it’s the annual forum of SE Insight, of 社企流. I will be there in the morning, but I’m free in the afternoon. That’s the following weekend. The previous one, I will be in Osaka.

Pi-Ling Ku: It’s OK. That week, you can have a short video.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, I’ll do a short video, of course.

Pi-Ling Ku: Oh, yeah, really short video or something.

Audrey Tang: If you run an event, then isn’t it the national day? It’s like four-day long vacation.

Pi-Ling Ku: Yes, there’s four days, so we’re taking the last two days, the Saturday and Sunday, and we’ll have some promotion activities including booths, seminars, etc. in Taiwan University.

Nancy Liu: Oh, yeah, in Taiwan University.

Audrey Tang: Oh, great.

Pi-Ling Ku: I guess more than 100 booths will be in that. Also, a serious forums will be conducted.

Audrey Tang: Oh, that’s really something. That’s great. If you have anything that you want me to say, as long as it’s legal, just write me an email. My staff will review for legality, and I will say it.

Audrey Tang: I will say. It’s fine.

Pi-Ling Ku: Before that, we can video, right? Video and kind of shortcut, probably film this.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, sure. I can record a high definition video for you. Just let me know the length and the format, like 4:3 or 16:9.

Nancy Liu: OK, it’s good.

Audrey Tang: I always publish after you publish on YouTube, so that everybody knows it…Even if they didn’t know you, they will read the transcript. They can view the video and discover you and then get in contact with you.

Lisa Moon: We can promote it as part of GFN’s World Food Day campaign as well.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, I’d love to. I’d love to.

Lisa Moon: That’ll be great.

Audrey Tang: Anyone who can identify which specific SDG…

Audrey Tang: …you are working on, I’m very happy to help. You have two or three SDGs.

Pi-Ling Ku: Also, one thing for Lisa. Lisa, GFN this year, they has cooperate with the Walmart Foundation and have a project with the Harvard University. Would you like to mention that, as related to policy side?

Lisa Moon: Yeah. Obviously, a big part of the way food banks, as you all know, work is that it’s important that food producers all along the supply chain are donating the project. There’s a number of policy barriers to that in many places.

Lisa Moon: There’s liability concerns, of course. Is the food going to be potentially diverted for sale and end up on the gray market? There’s obviously food safety concerns. A lot of times, it is cheaper, in some places, to throw away food than it is to donate it.

Lisa Moon: There’s a lack of tax or financial incentives. We’re partnering with Harvard University to an in-depth study of 15 different countries.

Audrey Tang: An atlas.

Lisa Moon: I’m sorry?

Audrey Tang: An atlas.

Lisa Moon: Yeah, it’s an atlas. You read the press release. Oh, my goodness. See? Again, you know everything. It’s fabulous. Anyway, no, it’s great.

Audrey Tang: Does it include Taiwan?

Lisa Moon: Not in the first round. I’m so sad. When it does, I’ll make sure I call. We’re excited about it. We’re hoping to eventually do it for all of our members. Hopefully, give companies and food producers the information that they need to donate with confidence from the legal frameworks.

Audrey Tang: This is great. This is like establish the norms outside the jurisdictions, and then jurisdictions can accustom ourselves to the new norm. I think that’s the right way. Have the social innovation lead the regulatory innovation, instead of the other way around.

Lisa Moon: That’s a very smart way to think about it. Very interesting.

Audrey Tang: We’d love to participate. When you are ready to include Taiwan, then we will work with the…

Lisa Moon: No, that would be wonderful. [laughs] Hopefully, after the first phase.

Audrey Tang: Excellent.

Lisa Moon: That’s great.

Nancy Liu: We have the other, you can talk about in Seoul, we have Asia regional conference soon in late October.

Lisa Moon: Yeah, of course. Anyway, food banking is very new in the Asia-Pacific region, as you probably know. We’re really fortunate to have five members in the region. There is also a food banking system in Japan that we’re aware of and stay in touch with.

Lisa Moon: Generally, in Southeast Asia, the model is still very new. Over the next three years, GFN is committed to fostering the social entrepreneurs that want to start food recovery organizations in Southeast Asia. We’re taking a cohort approach to it.

Lisa Moon: We’ve invited leaders from seven countries throughout Southeast Asia to be part of this program. We’re going to convene them annually, obviously, so they can meet each other and share best practices, do training, knowledge exchange.

Lisa Moon: We’re also linking them up with mentors within the network, so people that obviously walked this walk before and can share knowledge. We’re putting together a corporate council of companies that are working in the region that are interested in seeing food banking take off.

Lisa Moon: The commitment these companies are making is that they’re going to provide some sort of asset to these non-profits. Whether it be product donation, but thing, also skill sharing. Maybe it’s warehouse space. Maybe it’s technological support, governance support, things like that.

Audrey Tang: All sort of in-kind supports.

Lisa Moon: Exactly. Then we’re also providing some limited seed financing. The idea is that, after participation in this program for three years, that we’re hoping these organizations will be serving approximately 40,000 people facing hunger in their communities.

Lisa Moon: Can we jump-start these social ventures in a much faster way than what they’ve…Normally, it could take 5 to 7 to 10 years for a food bank to become established. Anyway, that’s launching in Seoul. It’s the week after World Food Day.

Lisa Moon: It’d be very interesting to stay in touch, because there might be a way to collaborate on that.

Audrey Tang: Sure. You mean that it’s in the weekdays before?

Lisa Moon: It’s the week after. It’s October 21st through 23rd in Seoul. Then we’re inviting all the members in the Asia-Pacific region to join us for the 24th and 25th.

Audrey Tang: That’s great.

Lisa Moon: Yeah, it should be a good time.

Audrey Tang: I’d love to put you in touch with, for example, the Taiwan-Asia Exchange Foundation, which is the main foundation to run the new southbound policy. We target exactly the same countries.

Lisa Moon: You target, I’m sorry, what?

Audrey Tang: Exactly the same countries.

Lisa Moon: Oh, really? OK. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: They have programs for civil society connectivity, for youth leadership, for regional resilience, and so on. They also run their own cohort, and they do training camps, and whatever in Taiwan.

Audrey Tang: I’m sure that you can leverage each other’s network very efficiently, because it’s essentially the same social entrepreneurs that you’re looking at. Maybe some of them have enrolled in both programs. I’d love to put you in contact with the AEF. As for myself, I will be in Ethiopia at the time, in Addis Ababa.

Lisa Moon: Good for you. Oh, wonderful. Addis is wonderful.

Audrey Tang: Oh, you’ve been, too?

Lisa Moon: Of course. Yes, it is. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: That’s great.

Lisa Moon: Not since they built the high-speed rail, though. Have you taken it yet?

Audrey Tang: No. It will be my first time in Addis Ababa.

Lisa Moon: Oh, really? Are you going to Seyad? Are you going to go to the north at all, go to Lalibela?

Audrey Tang: No, the Social Enterprise World Forum will be four-day long. I will just be trapped in Addis for that. It’s my first time, so it’s good.

Lisa Moon: It’s not a bad place to be trapped. It’s such a wonderful city, and the weather is always so wonderful there.

Audrey Tang: Yay, OK.

Lisa Moon: Well, enjoy yourself.

Audrey Tang: We’ll be fine. [laughs]

Lisa Moon: That’s great. We would love to be connected, though, to the foundation.

Audrey Tang: Just send me an email with that agenda, or tentative agenda, and I will forward it to the TAEF.

Lisa Moon: That would be great. Thank you so much.

Pi-Ling Ku: I will send that next week.

Audrey Tang: Sure, of course. At your convenience. The TAEF will be around for a long time.

Pi-Ling Ku: Thank you.

Lisa Moon: That’s wonderful.

Pi-Ling Ku: Anything else you would like to address?

Audrey Tang: Yeah, anything you would like to…

Lisa Moon: I just want to thank you so much for your time and your readership. We feel so fortunate to have the Taiwan People’s Food Bank Association as part of our network. It’s just fantastic to just be here and learn more about the amazing culture here in Taiwan and the commitment to achieving the SDGs.

Audrey Tang: Once the atlas include Taiwan, or if you are translating into Mandarin Chinese, after the next round of members of parliament, maybe it will be time to start some education for the parliamentarians as well.

Audrey Tang: This is beyond administration. It requires a law change to fit the international norm. This education campaign, I think, is the most important to establish as the new norm of food continuation. I’d love to help those personally, as in recordings and videos, as well as in my official capacity, as in maybe introducing that idea in our annual social entrepreneurship forum or things like that.

Audrey Tang: Let’s just stay in touch.

Pi-Ling Ku: Anyway, GFN, they have their annual meeting every year, always in March. Every year, Nancy and I will attend to the meeting, and to learn lots from other worldwide food banks. We are thinking about that.

Pi-Ling Ku: Actually, lots of things can be learned from other countries, but only two of us there. How could we transform or share our experience or our knowledge from the GFN to share with the local food banks or local public here? I haven’t figured out how I can do that.

Audrey Tang: Where would that be next March, like physically? Have you determined a location?

Lisa Moon: In Mexico City.

Audrey Tang: In Mexico City?

Nancy Liu: YES, Mexico.

Pi-Ling Ku: Probably, if the government agency are interested in that, next year, they could also participate in Mexico, so…

Audrey Tang: Sure. If there’s live streaming, I am sure that most public servants prefer watching the live stream.

Audrey Tang: I don’t know whether it will be recordings or live streaming.

Lisa Moon: We do live stream it, and then it, of course, stays…It lives in perpetuity, because the time difference is intense.

Audrey Tang: I know. Maybe the better way is that, for after you come back, organize a sharing session. Then people, it’s like a flipped classroom. People will be required to see through the playlist, maybe you curate.

Audrey Tang: Like, “You must watch those three talks before coming.” Then we can just provide for free the space of the Social Innovation Lab, which is free of charge for you to use. Many people use that for this kind of thing.

Audrey Tang: As long as you, it’s open to the public, and you can say which SDG it correspond to, the venue is free for you to use. You can host, I don’t know, 100 people or more, if needed. Then we make sure that the people have watched this video and came specifically for discussions.

Audrey Tang: I think that’s usually the better way, as opposed to asking three representative coming to Mexico City, which as you mentioned, it really gets lost in translation. People can’t really go back and start spreading the word without their audience already immersing in themselves a little bit of the context of the conversation.

Lisa Moon: Brilliant idea.

Audrey Tang: I’m happy to offer the venue and things like that.

Nancy Liu: Maybe I can write some text for promotion. I thought, yeah.

Audrey Tang: Yeah. If you have posters or whatever, you can also send graphic files to me, and I am happy to just put on my office for free advertisement to get people just enrolling.

Pi-Ling Ku: Really appreciate that you would help us to promote the World Food Day in Taiwan.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, I’d love to.

Pi-Ling Ku: We hope that that’s not an only one-day event. We’re going to promote it years, continuous years by years. Maybe five years later, everybody here knows the World Food Day, not just only the Earth Day.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. I think it’s not exactly not new, it’s just, we don’t know what to do on that day. There’s no immediate call to action, right? Like last year, it’s that our action are the future. That was the theme, but there’s no very easy call to action here locally in Taiwan.

Audrey Tang: If you can figure out some call to action as part of the message on the market, for example, if people can just subscribe to something and start something. For example, going vegan one day per week, that really took off. It took off very, very well.

Audrey Tang: It’s something that people can very easily do and say that they are doing. Figure out some call to action like that, I think, is paramount.

Pi-Ling Ku: Great idea.

Lisa Moon: Very good advice, I think.

Nancy Liu: Thank you.

Lisa Moon: Yes, great. I want to thank you so much. I just want to be mindful of your time. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: No, it’s fine.

Lisa Moon: It’s a real pleasure. I look forward to staying in touch and following your amazing work.

Audrey Tang: Thank you.

Lisa Moon: Have fun in Addis.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, very much so. Looking forward to it.

Pi-Ling Ku: One last request. Can I take photo?

Audrey Tang: Yeah, of course, of course.

Lisa Moon: Oh, yes.