Michael Tuchfeld: Minister Tang, I’ll go straight to the point without any introductions. What means of surveillance…I mean Taiwan is a worldwide success in fighting the virus, and every country should copy what or do exactly what Taiwan did if it’s possible.

Michael Tuchfeld: One thing that I would like to ask is about the surveillance means. How did you work to find out the spread out of the virus? What means of surveillance methods between the…How did you balance also between the needs and the human rights and the privacy of people?

Audrey Tang: Simply put, because we never declared a emergency state and therefore operate entirely within the constitutional limit, we never during the pandemic collect data that we’re not already collecting before the pandemic.

Audrey Tang: The data controllership and processing, for example, for our digital quarantine program occurs in the telecoms. They do not send extra data to other data processors.

Audrey Tang: They send a SMS based on the signal strength’s triangulation similar to what they already do to the earthquake advance warnings, as well as the flood warnings, and so on, to the local medical officers if people’s phone break the quarantine or runs out of battery.

Audrey Tang: That forms the basis of our surveillance philosophy. It’s time limited to just 14 days. It’s region limited. The resolution is definitely not GPS level. It’s just roughly 50 meter radius, and it’s processed by the telecoms that already have the data anyway.

Michael Tuchfeld: So there’s no violation of human rights, as you describe. After you get the information, exactly what do you do? You have 23 million people in Taiwan…

Audrey Tang: Not all 23 million are in quarantine. At any given point, there’s only this many people in quarantine.

Michael Tuchfeld: Oh, yeah.

Audrey Tang: Yeah. Of course, people stay in the quarantine for the 14 days. Every day we pay them €30 for their work as a stipend.

Audrey Tang: If they are found to break the quarantine, for example, through the digital quarantine measures, then of course the local medical officer would check their whereabouts. If they’re found to break the quarantine, we fine them up to 1,000 times that so they can fund 1,000 more people. Because of that, they don’t tend to break the quarantine out of rational self interest.

Michael Tuchfeld: If you have to put a finger on the main factor, the major factor that led to the success, what would you say?

Audrey Tang: It’s definitely soap and mask use, which only works in tandem. Very early on, we have this spokesdog, the Zongchai, a very cute dog that says, “Wear your mask to protect yourself from you own unwashed hands.” This is a entirely rational, self-interest argument. This says nothing about respecting your elders or protecting your community. This message resonates with people.

Audrey Tang: Once we get three-quarter of people through mask rationing access to the mask and hand sanitizers, the R value decreased to be under one, at which point the virus is no longer a pressing concern.

Michael Tuchfeld: Would you say that in order to gain the people to collaborate or discipline, you have to gain their trust? That’s the major thing in governing, won’t you say so?

Audrey Tang: No.

Michael Tuchfeld: How do you earn the trust then?

Audrey Tang: No, I wouldn’t say so. I would say it’s very important for the government to trust the citizens, to make the state transparent to the citizens, to make our mistakes widely known and competently fixed in a accountable way in real-time, and be inclusive to all the different cultures of people who are residents or visitors.

Audrey Tang: These four – transparency, participation, accountability, and inclusion – are all the state’s duties to the citizens. I don’t think it’s necessary for the citizen to trust the state or the citizen to be transparent to the state.

Michael Tuchfeld: Oh, really? Here, the major thing in Israel, for example, the problem is that people find it hard to believe the government, they say. The first thing they’ll tell them the truth, and be transparent, and tell them the situation, otherwise you won’t make it.

Michael Tuchfeld: What will be, to your opinion, the consequences or the impact of this virus over Taiwan society? Second question is about the economy. How do you overcome the supply chain reconfiguration?

Audrey Tang: I will answer the societal first. The previous culture about linear economy, about the excesses, about people showing off on anti-social media, about pointless consumerism, that’s gone. People are not enjoying showing off anymore when so many people are suffering. Frankly speaking, there are more important thing to do too, like fixing a global problem.

Audrey Tang: I think this societal solidarity will continue to enable us to tackle other international-scale issues such as the infodemics, such as the climate crisis, and so on.

Audrey Tang: Economically speaking, it also made sure that people who want to build something, they can build it from a much more shortened and much more trustworthy supply chain. Instead of made in the world, it’s more like a shortened made in the region.

Audrey Tang: The made in the region is even more shortened if you can share the blueprint, for example, for our mask automated production machine. Of course, we give our mask for humanitarian aid, but really our main gift is the blueprint that enabled this autonomous factory that churns out two million medical masks a day based on local supply of PP material, water, and so on.

Audrey Tang: Because keeping importing the mask is considered too much a risk, and for the economy too. Mask is just one of the many examples. The people would prefer if they can self-sustain, and at most, the sustainability can extend to some value allies but not much more. That really changes the whole supply-chain configuration around the world.

Michael Tuchfeld: What is the economical situation now in Taiwan? It’s one of the only countries that have a positive number in growth capital, no?

Audrey Tang: Yeah. In not just this quarter but this year. Next year is projected 4.4 percent GDP growth. We just three days ago have a huge pride parade. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: Life is normal. Masks is a fashion item. In Taiwan, we understand that we are basically prototyping a post-COVID, new-normal lifestyle. We do see, especially around East Asia, some other jurisdiction joining this as well, also New Zealand and so on.

Audrey Tang: Because of this, we are seeing a much more circular, caring, empathy-based economy. Even if my clothes look fashionable, I can always justify it saying it’s made out of plastic waste, plastic bottles and coffee bean waste. It’s entirely net negative carbon actually, and things like that.

Audrey Tang: This focus on sustainability and circular economy is wonderful thing, not just in Taiwan, but what we have seen in the new-normal jurisdictions is clearly a trend.

Michael Tuchfeld: Taiwan was one of the first countries that alert the world. Nobody wanted to listen. The International Health Organization didn’t want to listen. Do you still suffer from being banned from international buddies in the world unfairly?

Audrey Tang: We had limited scientific access. Unless, of course, your country’s top epidemiologist, the person who write the textbooks, in Taiwan’s case, when he want to talk to the vice president, he just looks into the mirror. It’s the same person. Unless it’s the same person, then having scientific access of course is not the same as ministerial access.

Audrey Tang: Of course, having Taiwan participating with full ministerial access is to the benefit of everybody involved. That’s what we mean by #TaiwanCanHelp.

Michael Tuchfeld: We can talk much longer, but we covered some of the things that I wanted to cover because I heard some other things. There are more things from your ambassador in Israel, but it’s very interesting. Thank you so much for cooperating with me and for the interview.

Audrey Tang: Thank you — live long and prosper. Bye.