Laurent Le Guyader: We report to you why we are here today. Because of friendship, and we believe there is really something to do in Taiwan and Taipei regarding MakerSpace community, how to structure it. There is two community events of possibility.

Laurent Le Guyader: One is FAB15, which is gathering all the FabLab in the world, a yearly event in Shenzhen last year, in Chile this year. Two of those were organized by Nicolas next year. Why not in Taipei or in Taiwan in 2019?

Laurent Le Guyader: Nicolas’ been meeting a lot of MakerSpace people. Taipei City, Taoyuan City, and legislature went to look yesterday, and here today also to see if you will support this kind of initiative.

Audrey Tang: Sure, but did you find a city to host?

Laurent Le Guyader: Taipei.

Audrey Tang: Taipei will be the city, then?

Laurent Le Guyader: Yeah.

Audrey Tang: That would be great.

Laurent Le Guyader: But for the FAB Conference, it could be a few days in Taipei. But I will let Nicolas talk about it.

Nicolas Lassabe: Yes. I saw the ecosystem here, and I say around next year, we will receive the artists of FAB as well in Toulouse, and so we went through the process for FAB14. My wife from Taiwan, so I used to come here almost every year, and as well strong connection with the FabLab here.

Nicolas Lassabe: There is a very nice community, and so I want to help them to get FAB15, if it’s possible, and try also to have some exchange. In France, we have less factory for electronic like here. We have a lot of creativity in France, a lot of start‑up, so I think we can have some exchange between these in how to improve maybe our factory in France, and how maybe to produce some part here.

Nicolas Lassabe: There are a lot of things to do with that. For FAB15, what is most important for the process is there is no official as a foundation organizers the FAB event. I mean for the program, FAB foundation and for these, and have to have some city host the event. When we go to the process, what is important, we will be in competition with other city.

Nicolas Lassabe: For us, it was with Montreal, with Cairo, in Egypt. For example, in Montreal, they wanted to do 50 FabLab, and it was support by Justin Trudeau, the First Minister of Canada. In France, there is 100 FabLabs, and we push all of these and we get the support of minister of digital and education, and also of economy, and we get support of lot of association.

Nicolas Lassabe: We did a video, so this is very important...

Joanne Antonetti: Also companies...

Nicolas Lassabe: Yes, a lot of companies also were in support of this. At the same time, we apply to be a Fab City. Fab Cities program is out to federate all the ecosystem to try to have a more local production in energy and food, about famine...

Nicolas Lassabe: Yes, exactly.

Laurent Le Guyader: The sustainability of the citizens...

Audrey Tang: It’s about a pledge from a city.

Nicolas Lassabe: Yeah, and the city need to apply and with right goals of FabLab. Tight now most of the products travel around the world to go in the different city and become trash, and user data usually are keep by company.

Nicolas Lassabe: Fab Cities goal is to inverse this, to reverse this, and to have some data moving and produce more localized things and furniture. For example, in Barcelona they have this project to do a one square kilometer of Fab City with a different type of shop and events.

Nicolas Lassabe: Our country uses a video we did for FAB14, for the conference, and actually you can see...

Audrey Tang: I saw it.

Laurent Le Guyader: You saw already? Great.

Audrey Tang: It’s a great video, and I miss Paris a lot. Before I was made minister, I used to visit very often, like five times a year or something last year. There’s some overlapping of communities like the OuiShare community, like the Start‑ups Corner of the bitcoin’s community, and so on, NUMA...

Audrey Tang: It brings me back.

Laurent Le Guyader: Have you been to Toulouse?

Audrey Tang: No, but my friends did. They went there for the CNDP deliberation. They were going to construct a new train, something, and the Center of National Debate Public did a deliberation there. They wrote a very detailed account back, so it’s excellent.

Audrey Tang: Before I became the minister, I used to do some open hardware with a friend, Jesse Vincent, on a a stenographic keyboard, a chording keyboard for Chinese input. We did the hardware design and fabrication.

Audrey Tang: I think it’s a great place to really bring people together, even for me I don’t really have any hardware experience. But I was able to find the hardware geeks at that corner. Of course, I’m very happy to help in any way.

Nicolas Lassabe: There is a very good system here, and the fact you are have lot of industries it’s possible for them when they do prototype inside the FabLabs to go direct to the factory. They needed to have some link. I think this will be improved triply in...

Joanne Antonetti: In the future, right.

Nicolas Lassabe: ...this context. It’s easy to program in France. We have a lot of creativity, a lot of engineer. We can do prototyping, but after most of the start‑ups go to ShenZhen.

Audrey Tang: Oh, that’s right. That’s right.

Nicolas Lassabe: I think that for most to Taiwan. It’s better for them to go to Taiwan than ShenZhen because their system has similarities to make some bridges that could be very interesting, pretty soon.

Audrey Tang: Yeah, so anything I can help you with. Previously the FabLab Taiwan people asked me to ask the Premier to sign a letter of intent much like the Canadian example. I agreed. I said, "Just give me a draft and then we will forward it to the Premier. If the Premier signs it, that’s the best. If the Premier thinks that I should sign it, I will sign it," but I’m still waiting for the draft. I haven’t seen the draft yet.

Audrey Tang: There’s also of course, Taiwan’s position in the next conference. For that, they really need some kind of local government to stand as sponsor. It’s not our place in the national government to point to the city and say, "You’ve got to do it." We’re not that kind of democracy.

Audrey Tang: We’re very happy to help in whichever way, in making a video or anything, it would be great.

Nicolas Lassabe: The application process for FAB15 is making it easier, actually.

Audrey Tang: Exactly.

Nicolas Lassabe: Nothing to fill, or not word. It’s just a video.

Audrey Tang: Right, right, right. I can get my laser‑cut keyboard, 3D printer, some virtual avatar or something. I’ll be happy to make a cameo appearance.

Nicolas Lassabe: That would be great. You have been discussing with Ted Hung from Taipei?

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Nicolas Lassabe: I see, OK. He’s basically one of the contact persons for this FAB15 Conference.

Audrey Tang: Right.

Joanne Antonetti: Also, there’s Ricky.

Nicolas Lassabe: Ricky Feng.

Audrey Tang: Yeah. Also, Ying-Zuo Lin. Our entire conversation is actually recorded. [laughs]

Nicolas Lassabe: Oh, really?

Audrey Tang: Because we put everything on the record. It was back in around March. I can send the link to you afterwards, you can see some context.

Audrey Tang: ( Link: https://sayit.pdis.nat.gov.tw/2017-03-21-%E8%88%87fablab%E5%B0%8D%E8%AB%87 )

Audrey Tang: Their main ask in addition to the letter from the Premier is whether it’s possible for officials to also accompany them to Chile so that they can get some first‑hand experience.

Audrey Tang: It makes sense to me, because a lot of VR or AR‑related performance here happened after one of the key officials went to South by Southwest, and really saw their performance and applications first‑hand. I did ask the Board of Science and Technology to help arrange any official visit. That’s the extent of their say.

Audrey Tang: They say it’s also important to make a video, as you say, for a certain Neil Gershenfeld to preview it. That’s the extent of discussion.

Nicolas Lassabe: Also, we’ll have a delegation you should come and meet in Toulouse. Some FabLabs, the people from the city.

Laurent Le Guyader: Organizing?

Nicolas Lassabe: We’re organizing the European FabLab Festival. It will be next year.

Laurent Le Guyader: May 11th to 14th?

Nicolas Lassabe: 11 to 14 May.

Laurent Le Guyader: Of May in Toulouse, in the Taipei City’s commissioner link from the Department of Economic Development. We’ll see if he can support us, if you make a space.

Audrey Tang: That’s next month?

Nicolas Lassabe: Yeah. I’m inviting you to...

Audrey Tang: I need to plan my trips. Quite a few miles to France. Now it’s very inconvenient, which is why I drive a robot all the time.

Audrey Tang: Because I don’t have to get the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to approve my robots. [laughs] If you can rent a robot I’ll be happy to telepresent at the conference. Or send a video message, if that helps, but no obligations.

Audrey Tang: Tell me a little bit about the FabLab Festival. Taipei City is going?

Laurent Le Guyader: Yes, Taipei City, as in Taiwan.

Nicolas Lassabe: Taiwan I think should be too short notice. We could come back to them soon as Development of Youth Affairs in Taiwan deliver.

Laurent Le Guyader: They are in the process. They are invited, and they try to find funding to drive in France.

Joanne Antonetti: Maybe also the people from the ecosystem, because the ecosystem of FabLab is very broad. We want to show them diversity.

Audrey Tang: To show the diversity.

Joanne Antonetti: Exactly. Maybe all the people from the ecosystem might come too.

Nicolas Lassabe: TTcat said he may drop by.

Audrey Tang: Sure. He’s very active now.

Nicolas Lassabe: Maybe someone from Future Wards.

Audrey Tang: Those are exactly the right people...

Audrey Tang: ...for the civil society exchange.

Laurent Le Guyader: You will go to Chile as well?

Nicolas Lassabe: Yeah. I will be in Chile, and will be in France after. We need to present what will happen in France for the next year. We will be there with people from the country and people from the city.

Laurent Le Guyader: What do you think will be the best argument to put into the Taiwanese trailer to convince the jury? Full government support is important. [laughs]

Nicolas Lassabe: I don’t know what we did. We tried to convince more as a community, and the community convince Neil Gershenfeld. I think this a good way to do. If there is some strong program or so. The thing is, once they move to someplace they want to have some impact.

Nicolas Lassabe: In Chile, they will try to have more program about the society, how to resolve problem. When he was in Barcelona he was to try the Fab City. For us in France, we will try to see what will be the future of the society when you have digital fabrication tools. The economy will change or not. When you have robotization, how it affects people who knew about this.

Laurent Le Guyader: You mentioned there’s a theme. A general theme for each FAB Festival or not.

Nicolas Lassabe: There is a theme.

Laurent Le Guyader: OK.

Nicolas Lassabe: Kind of topic for Shenzhen it was...

Laurent Le Guyader: Hardware making.

Nicolas Lassabe: Hardware making.

Laurent Le Guyader: IP protection?

Nicolas Lassabe: For Taiwan it should be something different. One tell, it could be inter‑generational, how to work between young people and old people. Maybe this could be a theme, unique or something.

Audrey Tang: Taiwan’s got a lot of software and designers in the young generation and a lot of manufacturer of hardware and designer of heavy chips in the older generation. Ministry of Economy has, in this year, the main theme, they call it Mix Taiwan.

Audrey Tang: You can Google for it. It is a series of events like TED talks, where they put one young entrepreneur, usually of the software kind, and one successful large company, heads of company, usually of the hardware kind, and also academician from AI together. The three of them make speeches in a panel, and then they try to fuse the inter‑generational companies together.

Audrey Tang: If you are working with any part of Ministry of Economy Affairs, they will be very receptive of the inter‑generational idea.

Laurent Le Guyader: Data city, seeing all those things. It could be one of the topics or subtopics of FAB15. Taiwan is already ready to host some of the events or even all the events. Then maybe for FAB14 next year to do this like one week of the meeting and then there is...

Nicolas Lassabe: There is two days everywhere in France and the FabLab can host if they want some part of the FAB Festival. In Paris, we will have the FAB Summit.

Laurent Le Guyader: We include the two days in...

Audrey Tang: I saw that in the video. It’s like a coordinated program. One for the substance and one for the visibility, so to speak. [laughs]

Laurent Le Guyader: Politics in Paris.

Audrey Tang: Exactly. We can have the same arrangement here between two or even three cities.

Laurent Le Guyader: Yeah. I think it’s a good plan...

Audrey Tang: Awesome.

Nicolas Lassabe: I think Cairo maybe will apply again. Sometime Russia also wanted but I don’t know. Iceland maybe they wanted, and they was not ready. There is many FabLabs there actually. Taiwan has a good ecosystem.

Laurent Le Guyader: There’s a chance the continent was taking turns. If Cairo in Africa is going to be there for a while, but anyway instead of FAB15 it could be FAB20.

Nicolas Lassabe: The problem is Cairo is the terrorist attack recently. Vice president of the FAB Foundation was there at the same time.

Audrey Tang: OK then. That sounds like a plan. If you need any help to get to any of the mayors, or for them to follow up their commitments, you already mentioned Mayor Cheng has expressed interest, just let me know and then we’ll work with the cities. On the national government side, we’re of course behind in getting anything, purpose of that.

Nicolas Lassabe: Which type of conversion you can see between Taiwan and France, and therefore make our movement, or what do you see?

Audrey Tang: For one, previously in March when they came, the FabLab Taipei people talk about the possibilities of sending not only officials, but also private sectors, like people already on the manufacturing value chain to there. This is the same strategy we use for the WCIT, which is the World Congress of Information Technology, which is this September.

Audrey Tang: There’s also a teaser. If you Google for WCIT Taiwan, you’ll see the trailer, and you’ll see, although our officials like NCC Commissioner or the MOEA Minister did feature in it, the main focus were spent on the life experience of everyday citizens.

Audrey Tang: Figures who feature in the film are from private sectors, people letting the world know that there is a very complete vertically integrated chain here. If we are to integrate the Maker ecosystem into this chain, there’s two, broadly speaking, strategies.

Audrey Tang: One is saying that it is important for the circular economy, for the social enterprises, for the corporate social responsibility. Because this is also my job in addition to open government, I can try spreading the message when I was going to tour around Taiwan, and try to get the CSR people, the social enterprise people, and the local fabrication and Maker people, which are often not overlapping, really...

Audrey Tang: ...to be more aware of each other, and then maybe send a more coherent message with the French counterparts, or even learn from their French counterparts.

Audrey Tang: We did the same for deliberative democracy in the past few years, having the French experts visiting Taiwan, Yves Sintomer, and the Paris Participatory Budget Team and so on, Julian Antelin visiting Taiwan to share their experience in getting those diverse Dakota groups together for the participatory budget and deliberative democracy.

Audrey Tang: We can have some similar activity here after I identify the stakeholders here and maybe have some workshops or studio. That’s one way.

Audrey Tang: The other way, not so socially minded, is the economically minded way, which would be combining the what we call SME promotion plan here.

Audrey Tang: It is one of the major focus of our Ministry of Economy Affairs, is to reform the SME plan at the moment. We can try to include more Maker and more FabLab‑like thing in the thing that we want to reward in the SME plan.

Audrey Tang: That would be in the form of subsidies and investments, of course. It will not be that focus on secular or social responsibilities, but that will mean more private sector people will be interested because there is obviously benefits in this.

Audrey Tang: The people we would invite or to send to France would be a different sort of people. It would be people already in the industry. They may not even need me to encourage them. [laughs] They just need to see the new regulation include this signal, and then they will act accordingly.

Audrey Tang: We can do both. They are not mutually exclusive, but I’ve thought about it a little bit after the previous visit, and these are two more obvious venues coming forward.

Nicolas Lassabe: Coming back to FAB15, I think sending officials to Chile, to really show the support is very important.

Audrey Tang: Sure. The Board of Science and Technology is already in charge of it.

Nicolas Lassabe: I see. Because the project, of course, is not Nicolas’ project. It’s Taiwan project.

Audrey Tang: I agree. It’s very important.

Nicolas Lassabe: ...etc., that there is external help because this is a process that we also have got the conference.

Laurent Le Guyader: My wife is from Taipei.

Nicolas Lassabe: It’s a personal interest.

Nicolas Lassabe: Also, this FAB event is a way to link the French and Taiwanese MakerSpace in the process and after.

Audrey Tang: When is the deadline for registration virtually?

Laurent Le Guyader: You can register one week before. There is no deadline. For FAB14, for the candidacy, the best is to say to the foundation you want to apply, and I can try to get also information, if there is also city, apply for it, which one.

Laurent Le Guyader: If there are information, the reality is it can be prepared, "OK, there is Taipei, and there is this kind of argument," but the video and the group document could be sent...I don’t know. If you get it two weeks before, is it...

Audrey Tang: Two weeks before that?

Laurent Le Guyader: Yeah, I think it’s fine. If it’s really before, it’s better.

Nicolas Lassabe: I think it’s good to inform the FAB Foundation from now that you are preparing the...

Laurent Le Guyader: Yeah, to say that we are preparing something, for sure.

Audrey Tang: Our dialogue will be public in 10 days anyway.

Audrey Tang: The world will know it. [laughs]

Laurent Le Guyader: Also, for the video, these kind of things, I think you have already some promotional video from the city, from the country.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. If you look for WCIT, there’s quite a few promotional material already for September.

Laurent Le Guyader: In France, we use all of these support video and stuff from the city and the country to do this. We did a presentation and give everything to FAB. We did a document and the video.

Laurent Le Guyader: If you have after a program for FabLabs, and you would say yes, so next goal will be this, and everyone will see this during FAB15, could be nice. If we have FAB15...

Nicolas Lassabe: There is an event, but everybody also holds the policies and activities...

Audrey Tang: There are, actually, upcoming policies, and Ricky already checked the complete upcoming list when he visited me. Obviously, one is from the Ministry of Education, because next year we are having this completely rewritten curriculum which will put a lot more emphasis on the independence of each schools.

Audrey Tang: Essentially, all the high schools will have not just computation or design thinking, but also their own design courses for possibly Maker education, so that’s the MOE. Then the Ministry of Labor and Ministry of Economy Affairs all have Maker‑related projects going on.

Audrey Tang: There’s no shortage of highlights if we want to make policy highlights the point. More likely is just to get officials in those ministries to see that this is also important internationally, and this is not just something that’s domestic.

Laurent Le Guyader: How many people attend the FAB Conference usually?

Nicolas Lassabe: Usually, one is in Europe, is around 1,000. In China, it was 600. I think in Chile, t’s very far away, will be 800. In France, they think there will be 1,200 people.

Nicolas Lassabe: Of course, there is a festival. This is only for FabLabs and for the festival, and for during the weekend. For May, we are awaiting 10,000 people.

Audrey Tang: Wow.

Nicolas Lassabe: Toulouse is more to...

Laurent Le Guyader: Over one weekend?

Nicolas Lassabe: Yeah.

Laurent Le Guyader: Wow.

Nicolas Lassabe: Friday it may be 2,000, and 800 over the weekend.

Audrey Tang: You said some of our civil society people already expressed interest.

Nicolas Lassabe: Yes. Titikatu maybe will try to come.

Audrey Tang: That would be great.

Nicolas Lassabe: I think so, because to FabLabs, there is a lot of connection with a different type of association.

Joanne Antonetti: Who will be there to have festival in Europe?

Nicolas Lassabe: Yeah. Most of the present country around France will be here. I think there is some Serbian, too. Some Russian people are coming. We have, furthermore, something like 25 different nationalities.

Nicolas Lassabe: After, we will have a panel with people from India, from Taiwan, and from Japan, to compare how is ecosystem here in Asia, and to compare with the ecosystem with Europe and see how they exist and a lot of things.

Nicolas Lassabe: These happen inside the FabLab because we have a huge warehouse inside the FabLab. It’s 4,000 square meter.

Audrey Tang: Pretty good.

Nicolas Lassabe: It’s a nice place. It’s useful with the video. It was the video from the producer festival.

Laurent Le Guyader: We should invite you to attend FAB14 in Toulouse next year. When is the date?

Nicolas Lassabe: It’s not official, but I should not change it. It’s in July.

Laurent Le Guyader: Because the French are in holidays at the time. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: Isn’t that the summer?

Nicolas Lassabe: Chile’s in August. They wanted to have something in August, and we said, "In August it will be difficult to have sponsor."

Audrey Tang: It’s July next year?

Nicolas Lassabe: Yeah.

Audrey Tang: In Toulouse?

Nicolas Lassabe: You will be invited to receive the...Because there is a position from FAB13 to FAB14. We will receive...I don’t know what we call it.

Laurent Le Guyader: Like the Olympic flame. They will give you a kind of scepter. [laughs]

Nicolas Lassabe: The FabLab needs to bring something, and to give those...

Audrey Tang: Like a torch?

Nicolas Lassabe: Like a torch. Maybe if you are a candidate in Taiwan...

Laurent Le Guyader: You will receive something...

Laurent Le Guyader: Make something nice, please.

Audrey Tang: Of course.

Nicolas Lassabe: It will be a good opportunity for you to...

Audrey Tang: Zach will be coordinating my time, but I’m very interested. Anything that gives me excuse to go back to France is good.

Nicolas Lassabe: I guess you know one year before. You can reserve your reservation, spend time in Paris before showing up there.

Audrey Tang: Awesome. That’s pretty much it.

Nicolas Lassabe: Thank you for receiving us.

Laurent Le Guyader: For your time.

Nicolas Lassabe: Thank you.

Audrey Tang: Have a good trip back. Well, you come here often anyway.

Audrey Tang: Thank you. Cheers.

Nicolas Lassabe: Thank you very much.