Interpreter: Can I begin?

Audrey Tang: Yes.

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you.

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: I will be asking questions based upon the list of questions that I have already given you in advance.

Audrey Tang: Sure, but feel free to go off the list.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you.

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Starting with the very first question. Could you please describe your job as a minister? If you could please answer the very first question?

Audrey Tang: Certainly. I’m one of the ministers with a portfolio, meaning at large ministers that work with the ministries without a definite ministry. My mandate is to work on open government, youth engagement and social innovation.

Audrey Tang: To me, digital is just assistive. It’s helping the open government, social innovation and youth engagement to happen. I work with, not for, the government and work with, not for, the people, so that people can come together to form shared goals and deliver innovations that fulfill those shared goals.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese].

Interpreter: Thank you, and may I move to the second question? It is being reported that one of your policy that is to widely distribute face mask, very impressive. What is the decisive method, and if you give a score to your policy, what would be the score?

Interpreter: If there is anything missing, or anything, which could be called as a drawback to those policies, please?

Audrey Tang: That was two years ago already. It’s quite long ago. Briefly speaking two years ago, in Taiwan, we discovered that if we can have three-quarters of people wearing the mask, washing their hands and so on, then on the original variant, not the Omicron.

Audrey Tang: That will be sufficient even before vaccination to reduce the basic transmission value. As I said, digital is just to assist people to make sure that there’s no speculation about where are the mask. There’s no conspiracy theories on where the mass production went, and so on.

Audrey Tang: It was necessary because at that point, Taiwan with more than 23 million people only had less than two million per day in mask production, so rationing was needed. My contribution is mostly so that the pharmacies update their real time inventory every 30 seconds, not just to the central government, but to everybody.

Audrey Tang: More than 100 different civic technologists and social entrepreneurs can build maps, navigation tools, even analyzing the distribution. Point out the bias in our ways of distributing and suggest better ways, such as preregistration, and things like that.

Audrey Tang: That by, I believe, May, we did reach this goal of distributing the mask in a convenient way and everybody getting the access and so on. That’s when we successfully fought off really the first year, the entire first year of the COVID-19.

Audrey Tang: I would not score my own effort, because it’s just assistive is helping a larger, broader scheme of things, including border quarantine and many other measures. It’s impossible to be scored alone.

Audrey Tang: A drawback necessarily, in the beginning, was that people who do not have the time to participate in such a scheme, in lining up at pharmacies, and so on, they are naturally left off from the first batch of distribution.

Audrey Tang: Even if they can look at the mask, they can’t find the time to go to the pharmacy when it’s available. That’s why pre-registration was introduced in March and a convenience store also joined in April. There’s many drawbacks, but for each drawback within a couple of weeks, we improved the policy to address that.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you. May I move to the question number three, about minister of you being called, “The genius digital minister.” How do you think about this and about the intelligence quotient, 180? If you could please answer this question?

Audrey Tang: That was my height, is centimeters. My height is 180 centimeters. I believe that IQ is not very useful nowadays for adults. When I took the IQ tests, there was three tests. It’s testing things that your phone can answer very easily, even without a Internet connection. It’s testing the most trivial of things that everyone can and do, nowadays, outsource to their mobile phones.

Audrey Tang: I do not think it’s a useful measure nowadays of our capacity to work together.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you very much, sir. May I move to the next question? I have been asking the same question widely to different experts. How would you view the post-COVID world and what would you think has been the biggest change brought on by the pandemic? What should be our lesson that we learned and how should we transform ourselves going forward? Please.

Audrey Tang: We’re not post pandemic. We’ve postponed the pandemic, but there will be another pandemic and there’s no telling when. I think what we have learned is that instead of going back to normal, we need to be part of a new normal that is defined by two things.

Audrey Tang: First, the distance between people is no longer measured in meters or centimeter, but rather by the common values and experiences that we share. The global neighborhood become a defining feature of the new normal. The global neighborhood, common urgencies. That’s the first thing.

Audrey Tang: The second thing also as important is this idea of resilience. Instead of preparing perfectly for any particular threat, we need to have a generally resilient infrastructure.

Audrey Tang: No matter what kind of issues affect the society, there is sufficient collective intelligence to address this emerging issues that covers the advanced warnings, as well as the fair distribution of necessary equipments and knowledge, as well as the general dissemination of science and latest development of technology, instead of conspiracy theories and so on.

Audrey Tang: Resilience instead of perfect planning also defines the new normal.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you very much. If I may move to the next question, which is on the possibility of the online and remote communication that it is good, that there are increasing options available to us. On the other hand, do you think that the face-to-face, in-person communication and the relevance of that may change? How would you regard of the distance between people going forward?

Audrey Tang: First of all, I don’t think it is an either/or thing. There are already many online tools that can let us see each other more face-to-face as if we’re sitting next to each other, as we are now seeing in the together mode in Skype. It allows for more natural conversation between the people who don’t prefer to see each other as little boxes.

Audrey Tang: This is especially useful if there’s more than two people in the same room, so to speak. I think the tools itself is improving to give more of a co-presence feeling. Nowadays, as we see that in Taiwan, even though that we’re mostly working in the same room after a couple of months of teleworking, still the best features of teleworking are still there.

Audrey Tang: There’s more acceptance of just videoing in someone or building a persistent like it or town, or some other persistent features of the office that people can share the same attention they share face-to-face to part of the people in the remote.

Audrey Tang: Not to mention the augmented reality tools that are also improving, so that people in the different rooms may connect those rooms. Even in totally synthetic rooms. Then feel each other together in a three dimensional immersive way, like the together mode I just showed that in three-dimensions and so on.

Audrey Tang: I think this will all be part of new normal and we will see is to make an arbitrary distinction between face-to-face only or online only. There will be hybrids and mixing with each other.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you very much. If I may move to the next question on regulations. Because of the pandemic, there have been restrictions on restaurants and so forth. I do think that we need to think about some other methods rather than regulations or restrictions?

Audrey Tang: Sorry, what do you mean by other methods? Are you referring to take-out food delivery?

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Yes, something like that. Do you think that restrictions are something of a necessary evil so we need to accommodate them or do you think we should look for other approaches other than regulating?

Audrey Tang: All of it depends on the capacity of the local health care community because first and foremost, we are here to protect the health capacity from overflowing. Because if they do overflow, then it also makes it very difficult to tackle other health conditions. That has a very negative social externality.

Audrey Tang: If in the places where there’s no significant burden on the health authorities and hospitals and the clinics and the ambulance and so on then, of course, non-regulatory approach, social innovations can thrive and they do thrive. In the situations where there’s an acute shortcoming in the health community’s capacity, then of course, naturally more regulations will be called for.

Audrey Tang: There’s no universal answer to this question. In Taiwan, we’ve never declared a state of emergency because we’ve never hit a point where the hospitals and clinics are unable to expand to address the incoming needs. We understand this is not a universal experience.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you. We’re going to move to the next question on transgender. You have made out of yourself publicly, but in Japan as well, diversity is now being celebrated. Especially the sense that the Tokyo Olympic games, but there could be some difficulty for you in life. What should be the remedies?

Audrey Tang: I do not encounter in my career in the cabinet any difficulties because I’m openly transgender or non-binary. Indeed, I don’t think people in Taiwan make the environment difficult for the non-binary people. Of course, there’s always room for improvement like anything else, but I wouldn’t say that there are necessarily difficulties or challenges.

Audrey Tang: Rather there are issues that the entire society need to come together and have a discussion. For example, in my office in the Social Innovation lab, we adhered to the Minister of Interior’s recommendation on public restrooms. On the ground floor we have a ladies’ room, a gentlemen’s room, a gender-neutral room, and also a room for universal access, like wheelchairs and so on.

Audrey Tang: We essentially doubled the capacity. Had we not done that, there may be difficulties in making the safe spaces feel safe for everybody involved. Because our recommendation has always been to expand rather than to constrain the existing places, that lead to more mutual understanding.

Audrey Tang: It’s a key idea core, intersectionality, in that the people who identify as something do not actually exclude other people, but share the experiences, the common experiences that needs the societal attention, so that we can take care of each other, not just people who identify as something.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: If I may also ask a related question about the transgender or the non-binary, the ICE Policy in the Japan. Have you come to have some knowledge about the policy in Japan? If you do, would you be able to share with us?

Interpreter: How do you regard the government policy in Japan for these issues? If you don’t know of what is happening in Japan, you can say, no, and that’s fine.

Audrey Tang: I have not paid close attention to the latest developments, so maybe we skip this question.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Yes, fine. Thank you.

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: If I may go to the next question. The relationship with the Hokkaido, we have very deep relationship between Hokkaido and the Taiwan. I myself further have visited Taiwan. If you could from your side, and then be very frank, in sharing with us your impression about Hokkaido.

Audrey Tang: I have not been to Hokkaido — I’m not the best person to answer this, although, I will make sure that Hokkaido becomes one of my destinations when we plan future visits to Japan so that we may answer this question, hopefully, face-to-face based on the common experiences.

Audrey Tang: Indeed, I was planning to visit more places in Japan around Tokyo Olympic, but because at the time the COVID situation was more than what we currently are seeing. The Delta Variant was more deadly than the Omicron.

Audrey Tang: I did not visit Japan, but I have made a promise that I will do so this year. I will fulfill that promise. Hopefully, Hokkaido will be among the places that our Ministry of Foreign Affairs plans to let me visit.

Audrey Tang: I will look forward to visit you in Hokkaido in person if given the chance. Thank you again for the generous donation after AstraZeneca Vaccines, otherwise, I would not be able to even travel at all.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you very much. Next question on actually what you are doing right now, you are very open in responding that to the media at interviews. Would you be able to elucidate us on what should be the desirable government position on open disclosure on information, please?

Audrey Tang: I believe the open access to information should not be about transparency, which is a very good first step, but also about participation. Meaning that when the society have some information that the government should consider, it should be symmetrical.

Audrey Tang: Not just flowing from the government to the citizens, but also when the citizens find out there is better data, the data that government offers was partial, was biased, and so on. There should be a very quick correction mechanism.

Audrey Tang: You mentioned mask rationing, one of the teams in Taiwan, in conjunction with Open Street Map – a global mapping community – discovered that our initial assumption, that the pharmacies correspond to population distribution.

Audrey Tang: Each individual on average is of the same distance to each available mask. We thought it was fair, and they found out it’s unfair. The data was biased because not everyone own a helicopter.

Audrey Tang: The same distance on the map does not translate to the same time of opportunity costs that one may take 30 minutes in a large municipal city to take a metro and go to the pharmacy. The same distance on the map may take three hours for someone else in a less densely populated place with less metros and so on to go to the pharmacy, and after, they spend three hours to the pharmacy, it probably already close for the day.

Audrey Tang: What looks equal based on data, is actually not equal based on the community analysis. When they raised this point and proposed a better idea, it became the new policy within 24 hours. The ministers simply say, “Legislator, teach us.” Then we co-created the new model.

Audrey Tang: Data transparency, of course, important, but it’s not just about packaged information but about the raw data. When the community discovered that raw data reveals some systemic issues, they don’t have the time to wait for four years to vote someone’s to correct that. It must be corrected in 24 hours, or at least a week or two.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you. If I may move to the next question. In September of this year, we will be having the 50th anniversary for the normalization of diplomatic relations between Japan and the PRC. There would be many reports on how to review on the bilateral relationship, and what I would like to understand that from the minister is how do you regard or find the Japanese relations look from a Taiwan?

Interpreter: If you could be very frank and candid, please?

Audrey Tang: Certainly. What I have learned in the past couple years is that there are many topics that we work together. By working together, I mean not just fighting the pandemic, which has been the common topic that we’ve been discussing, but also taking the lessons that we have learned from fighting the pandemic together in furthering our democracy together.

Audrey Tang: For example, probably, if not for the pandemic, the two of us would not be talking about open data [laughs] and Open Street Map in this interview. It became such a important topic, because people understood it’s only possible to solve global issues when we have the global contributions with global data and so on.

Audrey Tang: On the digital realm, it’s no longer about each jurisdiction, each city, solving its own problems, but about sharing the best practices or, at least, better practices so that those innovations may disseminate over time. If the collaborations are centered around those topics that are not zero-sum to the international community.

Audrey Tang: Indeed, if democratization is something that we all are working toward, at least PRC says, they’re also working toward [laughs] democratization, that may be a postpone pandemic time goal that we may also work together on.

Audrey Tang: I have said publicly leading up to the summit for democracy that if they are serious about that and double down investing in democracy, maybe someday we will be sharing the stage together.

Audrey Tang: I believe when it comes to the democracy and civic technology and so on, Japan and Taiwan provide many good examples.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Now the minister, you have just mentioned about the summit of the democracies, which was held last month. Even of those other people who are critical about ever been a PRC government and its involvement in the human rights that had the issues.

Interpreter: Even from those people, they have been criticizing the summit of democracies. As implied by the United States, about the US government has been quite arbitrary in choosing and selecting which countries are to be invited to the summit. Some would say, about the…It has further deepen division in the world. What is your take, please?

Audrey Tang: First of all, I believe it’s called summit for democracy, not summit of democracies. It’s not about involving only such and such countries, but rather, it’s about getting the commitments from the countries that are willing to invest in democracy in the next year, so-called the “Year of Action.”

Audrey Tang: I believe it doesn’t show that, for example, because the US is the host of this summit, it means the US is the most democratic. I don’t think the summit is trying to suggest that. The summit is trying to suggest that the people who get invited at least have made firm commitments on improving the state of democracy.

Audrey Tang: It’s about the commitment to action, not about the current status or the current position, which is exactly why I say that for the other peoples and jurisdictions and governments that may feel slighted that they’ve not been invited, the easiest way is to simply commit to make concrete improvements on the state of democracy for the next 12 months.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: You mentioned earlier about together fighting against the heavy pandemic. Do you think that the PRC and the United States, or PRC and ROC, do you think that you will be able to work side by side, hand in hand, and work together?

Audrey Tang: There’s many international organizations such as the WHO that has existing working relationships. For example, the COVAX arrangement, where the vaccines produced by each different countries are distributed fairly.

Audrey Tang: That is something we need to double down this year, in order to make sure that the fair access to vaccines is possible. I understand that WHO funds the Solidarity Trials and the Taiwanese Medigen, our homebrew vaccine. I got Medigen for my booster shot last week.

Audrey Tang: It’s being tried out around the world as one of the low-cost, easy to transport vaccine candidates, to help to raise the equity and equality on vaccine access for around the world. That works of course within the original framework of COVAX and also in collaboration with the WHO and so on.

Audrey Tang: Naturally, Taiwan has been excluded from the WHO and related issues on the ministerial level for many, many years now. Since the beginning of the pandemic, we gradually worked more and more with WHO-related task forces and expert panels and things like that.

Audrey Tang: Of course, we still do not have full access as people can see. On the technical and working level, there’s many collaborations with the WHO and COVAX and other arrangements.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: I will make this my last question. I was very delighted that to hear that you mentioned that you may be able to include Hokkaido as one of the destinations in the visit Japan next time.

Interpreter: As I remember, I believe you have participated in the private sector, the online remote conference held in Sapporo or hosted by the support of. You mentioned on that occasion about a lot of potentials to be seen if you combine the agriculture and ICT technology in Hokkaido.

Interpreter: Even though you may have not visited Hokkaido, I’m sure you will be able to send the people in Hokkaido a message of encouragement including what may be your expectations of utilizing ICT for industries such as agriculture, please.

Audrey Tang: Certainly. My usual message is from Leonard Cohen, and it says, “There’s a crack in everything and that is how the light gets in.” The crack that we see is maybe the cease of international travels for tourism for the most of the couple years now.

Audrey Tang: But the lack of people-to-people travel for tourism does not need to mean that we dwindle the people-to-people ties. Those do not need to be put on the back burner, and say, “Let’s resume visiting each other after the COVID and leave it at that.”

Audrey Tang: The conference that you mentioned, this interview that we’re doing proved that actually, people care about each other even more during the COVID times, that we care about the situations that come on urgencies that we’re facing domestically, but because domestically while we face, also internationally everybody else face.

Audrey Tang: It raises the spots that are previously because maybe they’re not close to airports, maybe it’s not a capital city, and so on. Have less visibility for people-to-people physical travel. That means that these places that figured out how to plan it.

Audrey Tang: The people may prosper together gets much higher visibility through the digital realm because whether you’re the capital city or not, whether you’re next to a large international airport or not, does not really matter. We can always begin this kind of digital exchanges on issues of common interest.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: Thank you very much indeed.

Audrey Tang: Thank you and looking forward to meet in person. But before then, live long and prosper.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]

Interpreter: I am very good looking forward to welcome you in Hokkaido in person.

Audrey Tang: Before that, maybe I’ll just go to a supermarket nearby and buy some White Lover chocolate to anticipate that day.

Interpreter: [Japanese]

Natsuya Furuta: [laughs] [Japanese]

Audrey Tang: ありがとうございました. Thank you.

Natsuya Furuta: [Japanese]