Audrey Tang: ...let’s start again.

Jaromil: Hi, everyone! I am in Taipei with all the Dyne.org crew.

Jaromil: We are the lucky guests of the conference on the intelligent urban fabric.

Jaromil: I have the honor to be here with the Digital Minister of Taiwan: Audrey.

Audrey Tang: Yes! I’m Audrey Tang. I’m a poetician -- I write poems.

Jaromil: We are... [laughs] That’s very unpredictable and fantastic.

Jaromil: You remind me of our friend, Birgitta Jónsdóttir, that is also a great poet, and a great minister as well...

Audrey Tang: ...and also anarchist.

Jaromil: ...also anarchist, fantastic.

Jaromil: Basically, I am here to ask you about the platform that we run, Algorithmic Sovereignty Observatory in Europe.

Jaromil: What is the impact that you see in your work, and on the society of Taiwan, of algorithms?

Jaromil: The most powerful impact that they have, and what can be fixed? What can be improved?

Audrey Tang: For the sake of brevity, I’m just going say "code", but when I say "code", please think "algorithm".

Audrey Tang: Code is having a large impact, of course, because code is like law, but it’s not a law of text. It is a law of physics.

Audrey Tang: In cyberspace, code determine what can happen, what cannot happen; what is transparent, what is opaque; and things like that.

Audrey Tang: It establish a normativity that is legal by design, just like physics. You cannot violate a physics law, because it’s just not possible, right?

Audrey Tang: This basically has a different position than a text-based normativity, where you can do something -- it may or may not be illegal -- depending on the interpretation.

Audrey Tang: The impact is having a pre-set boundary that is either agreed by the social norm, which is a positive impact; or it’s set by a few people, which is a negative social impact.

Jaromil: That’s a fantastic suggestion. Also, should we talk about code? What is the difference between code and algorithms?

Jaromil: Code sometimes is a little bit more boilerplate, no? Algorithm is at the core, like how does it function.

Jaromil: I’m curious, why do you shift it to code?

Audrey Tang: First, because "code" and "text" are both one syllable. In a poet’s words, they rhyme better.

Audrey Tang: As for algorithms, it’s very difficult to rhyme "algorithm" with any other word... "Anarchism", I think, rhymes with "algorithm".

Audrey Tang: In any case, yes, the algorithm, of course, is the spirit that imbues itself in the code.

Audrey Tang: So when I say "code", think "algorithm", but what affects people is a manifestation of the algorithm, which is the code.

Audrey Tang: They are two: In the spirit, it’s algorithm. In the flesh, it’s code.

Jaromil: So it’s very much like law?

Audrey Tang: Yes, and like other spiritual beings. [laughs]

Jaromil: Hopefully, law experts that are watching us understand the nuance and understand how valuable is this transfer...

Audrey Tang: ...well, the legal hermeneutics evolved from the spiritual hermeneutics, so they totally understand.

Jaromil: Fantastic, and you totally understand how to speak to Europeans.

Audrey Tang: Yes. [laughs]

Jaromil: I think you are very lucky here in Taiwan to have the legacy that you are creating. There is a government that is very enlightened. You are very young in spirit, in mind, but also...

Audrey Tang: ...totally non-partisan. Post-partisan.

Jaromil: ....and very dynamic. I hope that in Europe, we see more and more hackers that can actually shape and relate to the new generations.

Audrey Tang: To fork the democracy.

Jaromil: Yes. [laughs] We are working on it.

Jaromil: Thank you very much, Audrey.

Audrey Tang: Thank you so much. Cheers.

Cameraman: That is the best definition of algorithmic platonism I’ve ever heard.