Shih-Ting Hung: 前陣子一位以色列籍的電影界同行剛好帶著家人來臺灣，透過德國影展的策展人介紹，就跟他聊了一下。後來他提到最近臺灣在病毒期間的正面影響，他對台灣從不太了解到留下深刻回憶的經驗。

Audrey Tang: 是為了什麼而來臺灣？

Shih-Ting Hung: 似乎是在柏林的家對面開了一家台灣麵店，他們很愛吃。想說臺灣應該有更多好吃的，就來了。這是在疫情爆發之前。

Shih-Ting Hung: 閒聊間他針對這次口罩事件聊了ㄧ下，他很好奇我們是不是考慮用多媒體的方式來跟世界聊天，分享我們的經驗？

Audrey Tang: 前幾天范雲委員也有提出過一個想法，說要拍紀錄片。

Shih-Ting Hung: 嗯嗯，影像工作者思考想如何在現狀底下對社會大眾有點貢獻時，應該很自然會從影像製作與精神層面的方向去發想; 我最近感受很深的，是疫情爆發後對於藝術從業者的衝擊。這期間，我所知道的影像拍攝都暫停，大家瞬間沒有收入。同時，有人說，藝術在這種時期ㄧ定是第一個被犧牲掉的，藝術不是民生必需品。這點聽了讓人有點傷心 - 藝術的確可能不是第一個採取的步驟，但ㄧ定是需要的- 例如義大利人被隔離在家，會忍不住在陽台上ㄧ起歌唱，ㄧ起敲鍋碗瓢盤，音樂是抒發心理壓力最直接美好的管道之一，這對我們度過這個難關有直接的正面影響。這是藝術跟精神健康結合在此時刻非常重要的好例子，是基本需求。

Shih-Ting Hung: 目前我們生理健康的制度上感覺已經做得很棒，想跟你腦力激盪的，是大家的心理健康這塊 - 是否可以透過互動式的數位方式，達到ㄧ樣照顧大家的功效。而這個點子，也透過逐字稿的公佈，將ㄧ個可能的種子發散出去，吸引有興趣的人ㄧ起來完成。

Shih-Ting Hung: 我在紙上畫了ㄧ個簡單的線狀圖，可以airdrop分享給你。

Audrey Tang: 你如果要畫圖也可以。

Shih-Ting Hung: 好，這個線狀圖非常草創，分為App型式（直式）與影片型式(橫式)兩種可能。為了讓外國朋友們也可以了解我們的談話過程，逐字稿你建議我們用英文嗎？如果需要我也可以補上中文翻譯稿。

Audrey Tang: 我們也可以從這一秒鐘是用英文講話，我是用英文想事情的。

Shih-Ting Hung: OK. The topic we would like to brainstorm together is “How Digital Art contributes to mental health during Covid-19 perid？” and to target more preciously on each audience’s needs, I am thinking this is actually more of an APP format.

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Shih-Ting Hung: Recently I’ve been talking to chatbot quite a lot. I quite enjoy it - they’re like “shrink apps”, right? I find it helpful conducting positive chats when hunkered down.

Audrey Tang: I used to work with the Siri team.

Shih-Ting Hung: There you go, it’s like Siri, and for emotional needs. The conversation starts with, “Hey, how are you doing today?” They check in with me twice a day.

Audrey Tang: That’s awesome.

Shih-Ting Hung: Then I’d be guided to express my feelings truthfully, for example, “This morning I’m stressed about coronavirus.”

Shih-Ting Hung: Chatbot would then say, “ I hear you. Challenging time indeed. Do you think this a black-and-white situation?” I go, “Yeah, it’s horrible.” Chatbot would say, “Indeed. Let’s try this : Is anything positive happened despite this horrible pandamic? Try to describe what you feel positive about?” Then I go, “yeah, ok…yes, it humbles me, it makes me go into an inner journey, and it reminds me what’s truly important.”

Shih-Ting Hung: I find this pretty amazing, with the technology, chatbot like this may not be rocket science now, and yet by simply reminding us to look from another perspective, my mood is uplifted right away. It helps to go into the day with a more positive mood.

Shih-Ting Hung: What this TREE DIAGRAM is showing here - Under the corona virus period, we may have the following needs – 01. physical health protocols(what to do) 02. Scientific Knowledge (of what COVID-19 is), 03. Emotional Needs(Art/this app), 04. Resources for Financial Aids, 05. Public Information(goverment infirmed policy we need to know), which you contribute beautifully…

Audrey Tang: Thank you.

Shih-Ting Hung: If we focus on 03. Emotioanl Needs, and this app can customize/detect individual needs daily for further straight forward guidance, that would be effectively helpful. We have a lot of information on line, the massive data could be overwhelming and distressing.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. It’s a assistive.

Shih-Ting Hung: A streamlined trustworthy resource that builds an effective community is our goal.

Shih-Ting Hung: The next step is to invite artists into this community : for example, when chatbot detects A user’s emotional stress and in need of a break after a long day, the chatbot can say,”how about playing some music together?” The app then directs the user to a live stram of a digital concert, where four musicians playing a 3 minute string quartet before bed time, inviting global musicians to join this would be a lovely idea. Or, let’s say chatbot finds B user more visual, a 15-minute “Lunch Doodle” with an illustrator live could be fun. C user is in need of stress relief, a Pop Up Class of 5 minute medidation could be introduced, etc etc.

Shih-Ting Hung: You know, a bit like the Italian neighbors playing the trumpets, singing the songs together, but digitally and spontaneously.

Audrey Tang: I’m aware of that.

Shih-Ting Hung: When exhibitions, theaters, and movies productions are all shut down to protect all us, and freelancers in art fields are jobless - it has become a financial disaster. If we could shift our energy to contribute actively and safely, it would be quite helpful.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. Everything moves along.

Audrey Tang: Things that cannot be online gets shut down.

Shih-Ting Hung: It makes me sad to hear people say, “ When crisis like this happens, Art is the first to go - it’s not an urgent fundamental human need.” Art may not be the first step, but eventually, we all need books, movies, music to help us get through the days. Even sining in the shower under quarantine could be art. Anything nurturing our souls can be considered artistic.

Audrey Tang: Mental health is also health. It’s also a medical need.

Shih-Ting Hung: That’s right, the immune system goes down.

Shih-Ting Hung: If we jump back to the format for a bit-  besides App, there’s also another possibility to consider a video storyline where the protagonist will split into multiple choices of actions,

Audrey Tang: Interactive fiction?

Shih-Ting Hung: Exactly, decision making affects the paths of story development. What do you think?

Audrey Tang: I, personally, translated one of those things last week. It’s called “Adventures with Anxiety.” I translated that to Mandarin to address the anxiety that many people are facing.

Audrey Tang: In that interactive videogame, you play as anxiety. It’s fictionalized.

Shih-Ting Hung: In the first perspective?

Audrey Tang: As a wolf, and it is your job to protect your human from harm, but sometimes can you overreact? Things like that.

Audrey Tang: I totally agree that these kind of interactive fictions or nonfictions is much more pedagogically useful. Because lectures, there’s endless “TED Talks,” but it probably doesn’t really register, especially in times of stress. When you make it interactive, and people feel that they’re making choices, then that registers.

Shih-Ting Hung: Right, because it becomes immersive and psychological,

Shih-Ting Hung: Those are interesting to lead the audience into a scenario, a story, that’s helpful for them.

Audrey Tang: I read through the Doodle. Do you currently have a storyline in mind? Because this sounds like architectural…

Audrey Tang: …like how things should be done with it?

Shih-Ting Hung: How do we find this wolf app?

Audrey Tang: If you google for audreyt – that’s my handle, because what’s that on my name card, Audreyt – and then anxiety. That’s the first hit.

Shih-Ting Hung: Ah it’s already out.

Audrey Tang: It’s the released game. The game, which is 20 minutes of play time, is in Mandarin, but, of course, if you click “English,” you can also see the original version in English.

Audrey Tang: It should be pretty friendly to play on the phone. In the very beginning, it shows something like this. It’s not quite video. It’s more like stick figures animation. Then it says, “Adventure with Anxiety.”

Audrey Tang: It’s pretty good music, too, but for the sake of the transcriber, let’s mute that now.

Shih-Ting Hung: [laughs]

Shih-Ting Hung: It says, like this, and then it says, “This is a human, and this is the anxiety of human.” You are anxiety. You protect human from danger.

Shih-Ting Hung: “This human eating the sandwich is actually in danger. Quick, warn.” And, “Human, listen, this danger is because we’re having a lunch alone.” We’re not creating value by having lunch. White bread actually damages our health.

Shih-Ting Hung: True.

Audrey Tang: You choose one. Feel free to choose one.

Shih-Ting Hung: I always choose the odd one.

Audrey Tang: This is very odd. White bread is bad for our health. Is this a randomly-controlled trial? Do you have evidence for that? Actually, it contains carbohydrates. It would make us fat, and things like that.

Shih-Ting Hung: The wolf seems to have OCD..it’s actually kind of cute,

Audrey Tang: It will kill us. You see this. You use the fear of getting hurt, and it’s very prominent. “Look at how we protect you,” and things like that.

Audrey Tang: Then it explains how anxiety works – a fear of getting hurt, a fear of not getting loved, the fear of becoming a bad person. These are the three choices that you can warn your human and protect them against the world, other people, and themselves. This is public mental health material.

Audrey Tang: This person now gets a invitation to a party, and whether you should ignore, accept, or deny, and things like that. It gradually personalizes how anxiety works.

Audrey Tang: The great thing is that everything here is free of copyright. It’s not only relinquishing the intellectual property rights, but actual attribution rights, so you can draw another world and remix it.

Audrey Tang: It’s being translated to many languages. The storyline is just a TXT file, so you can change the dialogue very easily. You can even make it something else entirely that talks about depression and social anxiety.

Audrey Tang: For example, there is a invitation to a party.

Shih-Ting Hung: The wolf is still shaking. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: Should we accept, deny, or ignore? Any of these choices?

Shih-Ting Hung: This one. (hits “ignore”)

Audrey Tang: Let’s ignore, because it will just turn us sad. We will keep on getting sad, and we’ll pollute the atmosphere. Why is that? Because if we go to the party, we’ll make people feel bad, but if we don’t go to the party, we will also make people feel rejected. We’ll make people bad, so we should feel bad about it.

Audrey Tang: They’re ignoring. “What’s on Twitter?” and things like that. In any case, gradually it reconciles with the anxiety.

Audrey Tang: What I’m trying to say, it’s not just a product. The system behind it is very easy to change, to modify, and to change the plotline. If you have original music, if you have original drawing, video, or so on, you can plug and play, make it say something else entirely, and make it a new interactive movie.

Audrey Tang: That’s something that we can collaborate together.

Shih-Ting Hung: Sound great. Deciphering what we need right at this moment is interesting- it allows technology to sync with the mind. Even with something simple -

Shih-Ting Hung: This morning, I hop on the internext to learn from those I respect, to be inspired. A podcast says that during this pandemic when some says, “Panic, panic, panic, everything is out of control,” while as the Buddha may say, “Relax, everything is out of control.” That sets the tone of the day.

Audrey Tang: That’s right. You are not in control. Why don’t you just relax?

Shih-Ting Hung: When the fact doesn’t change, to change our perspective could be a beautiful thing.

Shih-Ting Hung: A LA friend is a still photographer from Paris. He told me he takes photos of empty streets as art that comforts him. LA has never been like this,

Shih-Ting Hung: We see “The Last Supper” becomes completely empty. Edward Hopper paintings become empty. The empty “Nighwaks” really strikes me, as his composition is so refined architecturally - perfectly reflecting what we just dicussed about our attempt to control.

Shih-Ting Hung: To have no protagonists come in to play, that’s something super artistic for our time.

Audrey Tang: It’s sublime, actually.

Shih-Ting Hung: Right. It’s a new canvas to imagine or to feel, and so straight forward.

Shih-Ting Hung: A collaborative community within this App or an expendable tribe for this kind of art would be great, no limits to any shape or form, but maybe to the quality of its content. A MasterClass of some sort, the contribution back to the society.

Audrey Tang: It feels good to rely on other people. That’s what this is doing to the society, because we have to rely on other people now.

Shih-Ting Hung: To make ourselves useful feels nice. I’d love to contribute my time doing something helpful than sitting there feeling useless. [laughs]

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Shih-Ting Hung: To answer your question earlier, we do have a VR project that we’re developing. Maybe we can discuss that further.

Audrey Tang: Sure.

Shih-Ting Hung: I did not create that with the team in the mindset of this. But maybe there’s a connection that’s worth discovering.

Audrey Tang: What was the theme of that?

Shih-Ting Hung: For the storyline?

Audrey Tang: Yeah, for the VR.

Shih-Ting Hung: To protect the hatching idea, we go off the record for a beat?  [laughs]

Audrey Tang: We can turn off the recorder for that.

Audrey Tang: We were talking about this Adventure with Anxiety thing and how its game engine can accommodate all sort of different narratives. As long as you limit your interaction to three choices, [laughs] then it’s a very good narrative device.

Audrey Tang: I mentioned it’s public domain, so you can take it and make a remix, as long as you own the copyright of the visual assets and audio assets that would feed into it. It sounds like you’re having quite a few assets of that sort.

Audrey Tang: There’s a need to ideate a more public health benefit, rather than just appreciating a story and make some choices within it. We want those choices to reflect how people could get essential help, mentally, but also physically, during the time of being quarantined on an island.

Shih-Ting Hung: Yes, and to be efficient with time, what do you suggest would be the constructive next step?

Audrey Tang: I can help on making it a app, like something that you can install on your iPhone home screen, without getting, necessarily, tracking through this app store review process, because nowadays the phones can install an app directly from the website.

Audrey Tang: It’s important for you to be able to play offline, because once you’re online, you get distracted all the time.

Shih-Ting Hung: Oh! That’s a good point.

Audrey Tang: Then all we can say, for example, “This works best on airplane mode.”

Shih-Ting Hung: Or you can start on the airplane, which we don’t nowadays.

Audrey Tang: Even exercising the airplane mode is a mental health…

Shih-Ting Hung: That is true. I’m learning that. That’s a really good point.[laughs]

Audrey Tang: It’s a mental health thing. I, personally, use the Pomodoro method, where I work for 25 minutes and then shut [indecipherable 17:10] for 5 minutes, or 15 minutes and then I shut it off for 10.

Shih-Ting Hung: Do you know everybody thinks of tomatos they might think about you now?

Audrey Tang: I know that.

Shih-Ting Hung: [laughs]

Audrey Tang: The point here is that if we can get people realize that they do have airplane mode, and by clicking airplane mode they get to focus amid the flurry of information, especially around coronavirus, and that, by itself, is a shield against the public mental health anxiety triggers.

Audrey Tang: Maybe we can make an app that refuses to start unless you turn on the airplane mode.

Shih-Ting Hung: Oh, wow!

Audrey Tang: [laughs]

Audrey Tang: You would get in focus for 20 minutes.

Shih-Ting Hung: That’s really good. What do you think, in terms of app format, or video 16:9? What do you think would be more helpful in terms of getting audience engaged?

Audrey Tang: 9 by 16, I think, is more engaged.

Shih-Ting Hung: Like this? (put the phone straight up) Because we’re used to this?

Audrey Tang: That’s right.

Shih-Ting Hung: Ah, interesting.

Audrey Tang: There’s two reasons. One is that when reading the wide screen…People are going to scan the words [indecipherable 18:22] , so unless you make it purely pictorial, and the words aren’t just like five words as captions.

Audrey Tang: Especially in ideograph languages, people really rely on a line height that’s high to separate the reading, unless you go all classical Chinese and do vertical, but nobody do that nowadays.

Audrey Tang: 16 by 9 works if it’s by a vertical reading order, but people don’t do that on their phones now. For example, in reading English, 9 by 16 ensures that people can scan it much quicker than a widescreen reading. If there is any amount text that spans more than, say, three lines, then the portrait mode works much better than widescreen.

Shih-Ting Hung: Ok cool. Next let’s discuss contribution method. There is several organization based on collaborative teamwork, maybe we could contact them. Things like, “OK, do you want to do drawings in this video? Do you want to do sound recording for that?” and then it becomes this collaborative piece that grows into its own look.

Audrey Tang: It’s a good idea.

Shih-Ting Hung: Another is selective content. For example. Recently I joined a movie streaming website, I am still playing with it, and it’s interesting- where it’s functioning like Netflix, but it doesn’t really let you browse everything. Instead the curator choose a few sections of movies each day. You hop on it, and you receive…

Audrey Tang: Handpicked narratives?

Shih-Ting Hung: Yep, sometimes narrowing down options with curated themes could be more on point.

Audrey Tang: Exactly.

Shih-Ting Hung: So, to sum this up - if this seed of the idea is something that’s useful for anyone, I’m happy to contribute however I possibly can be useful.

Audrey Tang: For example, if we take the Adventures with Anxiety engine and I make it installable as an app, and optionally refuse to play unless you turn it on the airplane mode…

Audrey Tang: …then the logical next step is if you have some plotlines that you’re already working on with the VR project, [indecipherable 21:53] to be disclosed, you can start brainstorming on how it fits a choose your own adventure theme, because there’s parts of it that doesn’t make sense unless you’re in VR, but there’s a lot of places that it does make sense, even in an interactive fiction format.

Audrey Tang: You can brainstorm with your colleagues about how to adapt that to the format. If you do get the green light for the VR project, this serves as a teaser.

Shih-Ting Hung: Will discuss with the team for sure.

Audrey Tang: That’s a natural thing to do, because otherwise if you’re crowdsourcing ideas and crowdsourcing clips without a central narrative structure, that often falls down, because people don’t really know what to say or to do.

Audrey Tang: The most successful crowdsourcing events, such as Eric Whitacre “Virtual Choir” has this conducting silent track that everybody can sing, too. [laughs]

Shih-Ting Hung: A basic structure line to expand?

Audrey Tang: Exactly, and even just with stick figures. Somebody who plays, they could say, “Oh, this is a great story, but they’re stick figures.” Or, “They’re kind of just random drawings. Do those look bad?” How would that make contributing to make it feel better or sound better? Then you give a structure on which the people can contribute very easily.

Shih-Ting Hung: Do you think this is a conversation we can continue discussing?

Audrey Tang: Yeah, I’m very happy to contribute.

Shih-Ting Hung: [laughs] Thank you.

Audrey Tang: Welcome. Thank you.

Shih-Ting Hung: Have a nice one.