yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Captivate General] MSHampton:
So then what I actually said it not COMPLETELY wrong. I stated that these days techs like fiber have more bandwidth to play with, but not everyone has access to the higher tech like that. In older communities, yes, the community has a limitied amount of bandwidth to play with for all the houses. That said, in most cases with today's technology,

I will conceed that I overstated my case there

.

"Need" vs "Can" does not enter the picture here. What did I pay for? I paid for a service that the provider freely offered and I accepted. If they sell "unlimited" then I have the right to use "unlimited" all I want as long as I am paying what they asked as per the agreement. It is not the fault of the user, but the fault of the provider selling something that they cannot deliver. What if I'm at a client's office and "Need" to download an ISO of an install disc? Doesn't matter. An agreement was made and money changed hands. It's the responsibility of the provider to give the service that it has charged for, period.
[Captivate General] d3v14n7:
No, it's NOT the same data, mobile data is significantly more expensive and MUCH more limited than regular high speed... For people who spend time on forums dedicated to phones, you sure don't know how the mobile internet infrastructure works...

Please, do some research.
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
More than likely, you got that unlimited contract with a phone that barely needed it. How many of the people downloading all these gb of data and tethering went and bought a phone off-contract just so they could keep their grandfathered-in unlimited plan? That wasn't the deal AT$T bargained for when they offered it. I know because I was one of them until I used my upgrade for the Captivate. Still, I rarely ever tethered and I can count on two fingers the times I went over 200mb in a month during the 2 years I had an unlimited plan. Like I said, cell networks are not designed or intended to be a replacement for a true ISP. I'm not sticking up for AT$T because, to be honest, their own marketing (and iPhone devotion) has caused a lot of the problem. But I constantly see people post in forums like this about how they are getting over on AT$T by using tons of data each month, tethering instead of having an ISP, and basically snickering while the rest of us suffer from poor network speeds and congestion because of their abuse. This thread started because of concern that AT$T might develop a way to determine who is using data outside of what they deem acceptable, i.e. via tethering without a tethering plan. Do you think AT$T would do that solely because they are looking for another way to gouge us for money? Not likely. Probably more to do with their recent bottom rating amongst carriers, the loss of the iPhone to Verizon and the realization that the only way to support their 4G rollout and remain competitive was to rein in the abusers who are dragging down the performance of their network for everyone. And lets not forget that most of the people tethering without a tethering plan are doing so with a phone modded outside of their agreement with AT$T and have therefore breached said contract. Don't stand behind the word unlimited thinking you haven't done anything that violates the spirit and intent of what AT$T agreed to provide to you.
[Captivate General] modest_mandroid:
Uh no, that's utter nonsense. If the traffic is being routed through the phone, it doesn't matter where the endpoint is. If you stream a video to your phone, then stream that same video to your computer tethered to your phone, there is no additional overhead for AT&T in the latter case. You have been grossly misinformed if you think otherwise, or you aren't understanding the situation. That's not even the point, though. The point is that you pay for a certain data allotment, and AT&T is trying to dictate how you're allowed to use that data instead of simply being a dumb pipe, as they should be. What AT&T are doing is as if your regular isp charged you different rates depending on if your cable modem was connected to a laptop or a desktop, which they don't, because that would be insane.
[Captivate General] jpbadonk:
What you are not realizing is that AT&T doesn't have to have you as a customer. They can opt to cancel your plan. They are being nice by grandfathering in your unlimited plan. If you abuse it in their eyes and don't respond to their requests to play nice, don't be surprised if your service gets cancelled.

Yes, contracts go both ways. They really don't have to honor the unlimited plan 'forever'.
[Captivate General] MSHampton:
I don't see them being "nice" by them providing me the service that I am paying for. It is a business agreement. If they want to stop grandfathering EVERYONE and completely do away with the plan then that is an entirely situation. But to tell someone, "Hey, I know you're only using the service that we sold you, but we'll cutting you off." just isn't right.

Uh, nope, this is like my 4th smart phone and I've had unlimited for as far back as I can remember. And no, I don't upgrade every single year either.

They "bargained" for the price I pay every month for me to have "unlimited" data usage." How much clearer can that be?

And I agree that is wrong. They were not sold tethering services. And I fear as you have pointed out that I have been so ingrained in making my point that unlimited means unlimited that I have strayed from the original argument. If anyone is using a smartphone to the fullest then they are well within their contractural rights. We do not however have the right to tether if we are not paying for that service since that is pretty explicitely stated in the contracts that we all signed.

I hate it when I get distracted like that. Getting closer to those senior years every day...
[Captivate General] fldude99:
With all due respect, you should be paying through the nose for that kind of data use..period. Again..no offense, but it's folks like you that make bandwith use an issue. Get some internet hooked up and if you get hassled by ATT, bend over and take it instead of fighting an unethical battle
[Captivate General] fldude99:
You too..9GB 11 days in? You should also be forced to pay thru the nose
[Captivate General] fldude99:
+1..so right. Typical American attitude..get what you can and screw the man.
[Captivate General] fldude99:
Gimme a break..what the hell are you doing to use that much data?
[Captivate General] nickm50:
Its not hard to chew through data if you are streaming.

Now that kinda use over 11 days....... Not sure how to justify that :-S
[Captivate General] whiteguypl:
...... Riiiight
[Captivate General] boborone:
Stream music, tv, youtube, movies, ect. Hell man, pandora can eat a ton of data by itself. Lastfm is a huge data hog. Tvflash with the captivate's tvout goes through data like a fish through water.
[Captivate General] boborone:
Just so you see my attitude isn't one to screw the man. I haven't had tv or internet in my house for two yrs. My phone and npr is how I get information. If I could get cable just for the news channels I would. Other data is music and entertainment. Just how I use it.
[Captivate General] fldude99:
Why don't you have internet in your house and stream Pandora and whatever else you do on that connection?
[Captivate General] boborone:
Because that's another 30 bucks a month. I pay that for unlimited on my phone already. I get 3 to 5 mb dl and that works plenty for me. I'm not dling torrents or crazy porn. Don't need fast bandwidth, just lots of it I guess.
[Captivate General] wonner:
Seriously? I believe tethering plans and data caps are purely for revenue reasons.
[Captivate General] fldude99:
I also pay $25/mo for my att connection and god knows how much for my home cable internet (bundled with tv, etc). It's what we all do...again, no offense, but you're playing without paying. I actually hope ATT clamps down on this type of use
[Captivate General] Pinepig:
You mean things that the phone is designed for and capable of using, how dare you use a device and service you paid for.
[Captivate General] shadow65781:
well said sir.
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
Sure they are, but my statement was about the motivation behind AT$T clamping down on misuse/abuse of these things. Try and keep up.:D
[Captivate General] boborone:
I know right. Haha shame on me.
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
Same here, I pay $120 for my cable internet and TV on top of my monthly wireless bill. Like I said earlier, theses devices and their plans are not designed as replacements for ISPs or TV service, but as conveniences for occasional use.
[Captivate General] lexo1a:
i tether to my laptop my ps3(i play call of duty black ops online for hours at a time) my tab my television i download tons of programs roms movies i watch tons of hq youtube for many months now on a daily basis i would honestly say i get around 20gigs a months at least and so far no problems on iphone unlimited plan switched sims and thats it at&t dont have clue unless they reading this......................:D
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
Another proud abuser.:rolleyes:
[Captivate General] Pinepig:
I'm looking at my contract right now and can find no such terms.

Don't get me wrong, I do see issue with the folks that seem to abuse it ( tough to come up with a definition of abuse isn't it ).

I do not see a problem with folks streaming music and or vid as much as they want on a device that was made with those capabilities in mind. You're going to find that more data and uses will be found for these " pocket computer and entertainment centers " that we now carry, not less, the providers better figure out how to provide for that kind of load or somebody else will.

Technology doesn't stand still and this one won't either. I can remember when I was the remote for the TV and we only had three channels, look what we have now.
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
Not really, there's a bunch of posts in here from people who defined it quite well. They just won't admit to it.
[Captivate General] boborone:
That my friend is the truth and the tech blogs have been writing about that for a couple yrs now.
[Captivate General] fldude99:
Bottom line is they should just discontinue all unlimited plans and make the 2GB plan the standard. Any use over and above, one just simply pays..something like $10/gb or so..done
[Captivate General] boborone:
Why?

......
[Captivate General] modest_mandroid:
I think everyone here is missing a major point.. AT&T didn't say they were cracking down on people that are tethering AND going over their 2gb allotment. They said they are cracking down on people that are tethering. Period. All this talk about how much people stream movies and whatnot is irrelevant. AT&T is just pissed that people found ways to use a service for free that they (wrongfully) used to charge an arm and a leg for, and now they want to put the genie back in the bottle by frightening people into getting a tethering plan they don't need (provided they stay within their data allotment).
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
Wrongfully? If people are tethering without a plan and with a modded phone they are violating their contract. AT$T has every right to go after those people whether they use 2gb or 2mb. Why is it only the users can hide behind their "unlimited" contracts, but when AT$T tries to crack down using their side of the contract they are evil? Having an unlimited plan doesn't allow you to circumvent what that plan entails and AT$T has always locked down tethering on any phone I've ever had, so if you're doing it without a plan, they have zero obligation to you. Like I said, you don't like their terms, take your business elsewhere. See how much Sprint or Verizon charge you for tethering or how good their service is, but don't tell me that you are somehow justified in screwing over AT$T because you don't like their business practices. You chose them, remember?
[Captivate General] diablo009:
Well said! TMo just sends a message and throttles speed if u cross their soft limits. U can't even argue. And technically, they are correct 'cos u still have ur unlimited data.

Once u breach contract by modding phone, it is all said and done. Plus data hogs (less than 1% of total customer base) can always be eliminated for the better good of the others customers, esp when curtailing these hogs frees up network. AT&T could simply start trickling data to pathetic speeds once u cross the soft limits and there would be no way u could even argue. Use phone as a phone for all its functions, just don't misuse it.

I remember seeing the sign "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" in some restaurants of late. Maybe all data hoggers would be put into that group.
[Captivate General] modest_mandroid:
Yes, wrongfully, and I'm not even talking about unlimited plans (which, to my knowledge, have always had a 5gb cap in the fine print). They're only getting a pass on something so ridiculous because they're a mobile company. Like I said, imagine if your regular ISP charged you more for connecting to the internet with your desktop than if you had connected with your laptop. Nobody would stand for that, and yet people do with mobile service providers.

Nobody is arguing that they aren't allowed to do what they're doing or that no other service provider does it. They have every right to do what they're doing. People are arguing that they SHOULDN'T be allowed to charge you twice for data you've already purchased. Keep in mind that the extra 2gb you get with a tethering plan is a recent addition - even as early as last year, a tethering plan would still be linked to the same exact 2gb pool you already purchased. Essentially, they were charging you for the exact same service twice, because you were paying double for data you already purchased. You were just paying for the "privilege" of tethering. The situation is a bit different now with the extra 2gb you receive with a tethering plan, but it's still nonsense to REQUIRE someone to have a tethering plan if they would like to tether AND STAY WITHIN THEIR REGULAR 2GB ALLOTMENT. There is absolutely no technical reason why they should be charged extra or required to get a second data plan.

The point is, they're supposed to function as a dumb pipe. Ideally, they provide the data and you consume it how you see fit, whether through phone or desktop, because it's the exact same data. This is not the case, and it is clear that the only reason these tethering plans exist is to nickel and dime customers so they can maximize their profits. Like I said in my earlier post, data is data - there is no extra overhead for AT&T if the data ends up going to your computer from your phone, as opposed to simply stopping at your phone.

Your argument basically boils down to "they can because it's in the contract." Okay. No argument there. That doesn't revoke my right to be angry that they're allowed to.
[Captivate General] TheBassman369:
I'm going to continue to use my unlimited data and tethering until I have to pay for the tethering. I'm sure AT&T won't really notice if they go by usage, considering I only use about 300 MB per month due to Kentucky's awesome EDGE connection. 20 kbps down and 5 kbps up FTW.
[Captivate General] newter55:
Wow...what a thread. Just wait til at&t goes the way of Verizon for unlimited "abusers" and starts throttling. Sure you can continue to have all the data you can consume......but you will have to try and suck it through a collapsed "edge" straw.
[Captivate General] modest_mandroid:
Very nice rant, it was actually a very interesting read. The marketing bit you described is actually something called Hyperbolic Discounting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_discounting <- for anyone else that has time to burn.

But what about in the event that you're downloading a large file with your smartphone as opposed to a computer connected to the phone by wifi? I mean, the cell site doesn't seem to be able to discern between the phone that is tethered to a computer and the phone that is just downloading tons of crap, as the tethered phone is downloading something on behalf of the computer then forwarding the data over wifi or cable, so technically the amount of spectrum being consumed should be the same in both situations. Sorry if I seem to keep bringing this same point up, but I'm genuinely interested if there is any technical reason that would justify paying for an extra tethering plan, or if it's simply a marketing ploy rationalized by "because people that tether tend to download larger files, and because we like money, and because it's in the contract."
[Captivate General] Sqb:
And I thought charlie sheen was nuts. This is one lively bunch in here. Good to see both sides saying the same thing over and over again. Nothing like pure repetition to get a point across. I am learning a lot though. Thanks guys for all the insight

Sent from a rock on fire in the middle of the sea
[Captivate General] fldude99:
So...good point here: ATT wants to just curtail the ability to tether-a basic feature of the device that they clamped down on in the stock 2.2. Legal minds can say whether that's legal or not, and if it is...right or wrong, ethically, it basically ends this discussion IMO.

Edit: Too bad joiku hasn't introduced an app for android. I remember using it on my Nokia and it was great
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
Your argument falls flat for various reasons. AT$T requires a tethering plan because by tethering to a laptop you have the potential to use way more data. Surfing the web on a phone means many of the sites you visit will be mobile-formatted and sized (many know when you're on a mobile). You're also less likely to spend hours watching video or doing other things (like gaming) on a palm-sized screen. Being tethered to a laptop translates into way more data usage potential simply because the user is no longer constrained by the smaller screen. It's not the same data, it's more of it and the means to get it to you over a phone network is way different and costlier than how your ISP does it. Up until now AT$T has turned a somewhat blind eye to people tethering without a plan, but with more users abusing the network this way (like the admitted ones in this thread) it has gotten way out of hand. They have to do something to protect average users from the slowdowns and interruptions all this abuse causes. Be angry all you want, you're still part of the problem.
[Captivate General] bames:
thats not necessarily true

some of the worst data hog offenders have traditionally been iphone users many untethered.

+ i think you make a false presumption that all or most of the people who tether are abusers of the data. I only tether when necessary (cable internet goes out and need to check news/email etc). I could probably count the # of times i tether in a year on two hands and although i have unlimited data i think i have only gone over 2gb in a month once and never topped 3. Not all tetherers may be quite as conservative in the use as myself but i would be willing to bet that just as most smartphone users never come close to approaching their 2gb limit.....most tetherers never eclipse it as well.

For whatever reason there seem to be a fair number people who are using their cellphones as portable torrent download/upload devices and i would suggest they are just as or more likely to consume mass quantities of data than are the average tetherer.

On the greater topic.....consuming mass quantities out of spite is obviously a jackass move but i don't begrudge someone on unlimited data simply because they use a fair amount in a month 5gb 10gb...etc.

There are alot of areas where you cannot get decent internet service in your home....for some the unlimited plans and tethering became some peoples best options for their home service (you can't blame people for doing such when att markets it as unlimited and thats a much different scenario than the guy downloading stuff because he thought he was getting back at the man)

If you remember when they first came out with data plans they really pushed the unlimited...i can remember them trying to use the $$$ scare tactic of how much it would cost if you went over your limit so it was really worth the extra money to go with unlimited so it still baffles me why so many of you place so much blame on the consumer (a lot of conservative republicans here maybe) j/k.

Lets just hope this causes more iphone users to jump to verizon and open more bandwith for us =)
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
Another reason to hate the iPhone.:D
[Captivate General] groves226:
something now one has said in here.

Tethering plans also put you through a different gateway then the normal one every other cell uses.

wap.att.com

isp.att.com.

i might have the addresses wrong, but the two gatesays are very real. One has multiple firewalls and other devices the other has none. Tethering plans shoot you out the gateway that has none.
[Captivate General] crossfire2500:
Sorry but I don't believe you. I do not believe you were able to use that much data on a razr or the fuze regularly. Not to be a douche but if I remember right. 3g was in the preliminary stages 3 years ago and transfer speeds were less than 100 kilabytes per second.

So in effect, you'd be downloading

1024kb per megabyte =

1024kb x 1000mb per gigabyte x your stated 20 gigs

=20,480,000kb/100kb per second = 204,800 seconds/3600s per hour = 56 hours per month?

Someone correct my math if I made a mistake. Even the current 3g speeds that I get, which is 3megabits per second conservatively (~450KB/s), with att (which your fuze COULDN'T GET) download time would be 31 hours per month and more with your captivate. You are either misled or extremely proficient at downloading and nothing else on a mobile device. My vote is for the former.
[Captivate General] bames:
on the topic of unlimited data plan persons who have been grandfathered

what would be so wrong with att acting like a normal company and incentivizing people to take a tiered plan.

1. offer ANY phone upgrade free to unlimited data plan holders who are willing to accept a tiered plan with a 2 year contract. I think you could reduce the # of unlimited data plan holders by at least 55-60% with incentives that would save money longterm.

2. Do away with the paid 200 mb plan and include FREE 250mb with all smartphone contracts. Create a 1gb plan @ $15/mo. A large % of population still has not migrated to smart phones and this would be away to get more people to pay for smartphones and get accustomed to the data and access it provides.
[Captivate General] boborone:
I used to have a job that I travelled all the time. On the razr I had att music and maps. Used maps to drive and music for when I was pouring concrete. Get off work, surf the web, youtube. Fuze, used it for GPS, pandora, while driving. Off work even more surfing and youtube.

Plus on a side note, show me a person sitting in hotels for months on end doing meth and coke with a phone and PSP. Tell me that person isn't going to tweak out on those two. My fuze for trade in my sign even describes it as having hazy areas over the buttons on the screen from thousands of hours of opera mobile use.
[Captivate General] fldude99:
Most of these posts profess to know more about the legality of the ATT various contracts than what the poster is qualified to make an opinion on..bottom line is if ATT can restrict tethering on a legal basis then that ends this entire thread. Only an attorney or judge could determine that. So ATT will do what it wants until pushed by someone or a group with a lot more energy, resources and expertise than most
[Captivate General] Miami_Son:
While I really don't want to see even more smartphone users on the network, I welcome any changes AT$T makes that get the abusers either off or throttled back so that they have less impact on the things I want to do with my phone. Reasonable things, mind you.
[Captivate General] diablo009:
If AT&T takes off even half of abusers, its networks would become very free.
[Captivate General] fldude99:
It would be interesting to know those statistics so as to back up that statement