yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] KryptosXLayer2:
Hmm, randomly chosen to be reviewed.... sounding like bluffs on AT&T's end.... not able to tell you exactly what you were doing that seemed like tethering.... Are we all sure that they have the right people in their targets? Yes, everyone who posted, tethered, but what about those with unlimited data plans that used a crapload of data but weren't tethering (and haven't posted)? Are they getting letters, considering AT&T believes anything that you use your phone for when it connects to another device is tethering?

I still maintain that I haven't received a letter or text, and I have tethered an average to below average amount. I use WiFi on my SGT10.1 most of the time, but I have tethered with it plenty of times and wasn't chosen. I also have not, in the past 6 months, gone over 2GB of data. Wait, have all of you posting gone over that amount when factoring in tethering as well? Maybe they're just trying to hit those who went over the magical 2GB number AND tethered to get everyone below 2GB regardless of what plan they are on....... I wouldn't put anything past them at this point!
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] k0sun7eash3d:
Wow... AT&T is just getting greedier and stupider by the day. None of these actions provide mobile data except for possibly using the USB cord to tether an internet connection to a laptop. At this point, if I won't be allowed to use the HDMI output BUILT-IN to my phone, I better get fully subsidized for the total price of the phone. If they're going to fill their phones with excessive bloat as well as cripple the functions that came from the factory, we may as well declare our defeat and bow down before our new masters.

I hate calling their phone support and arguing facts with them, like how uploading a video to YouTube can even be remotely considered tethering. They clearly don't understand what products they're selling and may as well be chat bots.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] stewartsoda:
Unlimited plan. Lots of data last month (4-5 GB). No tethering (other than webtop via 3G without tethering, because tethering for webtop is BS). No notifications (yet?).

I use my phone to download all kinds of rapidshare crap I need while at work because my employer's firewall/proxy is pretty restrictive.

I've read before that they can tell from the TTL of the packet headers. Default is something like 64, every hop decrements one, so they should be receiving packets from you with a TTL of 63 (1 hop), but if you tether it will be 62 (2 hops). This is conjecture based on some other crap that I read a long time ago and am too lazy to look up now.

Webtop TTL shouldn't be any less since it's still "the phone" afaik.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] kisnerct:
Durpdurp, lets continue to develop and push our networks to faster speeds but punish those who use it the most!

Anyway, had my appointment with my attorney buddy today and he's going to look into this and get back to me on Friday. Good thing is, he's a rooter and also on ATT so he has some knowledge of our community.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] KryptosXLayer2:
oh yeah, one more thing, since this is posted in the Atrix section and I'm too scared to leave the safety of the sections I own devices for (joking), are users of the Inspire and other Android phones getting notified when they tether, or is this something specific to the Atrix? I mean, if we're the only ones getting slammed for this by AT&T, and I haven't heard anything from the rest of the Android community speaking up about this on Twitter or Google+, this might be fairly contained and there has to be some sort of way we could find out why Atrix owners are being targeted now just like iPhone owners have been for a while now......

Just a thought!
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] pukemon:
Oh im sure other phone.owners are getting The Letter, but the atrix is probably getting a bigger share of The Profiling because of the many accessories avalable to the atrix and people skipping the wifi in favor of tethering to be more cool in front of their parents cough i mean friends. I think the lawsuit that will follow soon should target atnt advertising and promotions of the capabilities of the atrix but on the back end theyre saying youre not allowed or have to pay for that privilege. Its a clear cut case if a carrier trying to flex its muscle where its not needed, and atnt is at a moment of weakness because of the tmob thing, thus it could be the top executives having little peepee syndrome and taking it out on us. Also, this is a great example of what atnt will do if it gains more power by the acquisition of tmob and collaborating with verizon more on how to flex more muscle and bully us into emptying our pockets so they can have more lunch money.

I voided my warranty and your mum.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] traindisp:
AT&T ulimited, accused tethering, But Not...

AT&T accusing my wife of tethering on her iphone and there is no way she knows how to tether her phone. She barely knows how to do things on her phone. At&t is lying and no one will help us. They are a crooked company cuz they already tagged one phone and changed our unlimited data plan. Now they are going after another phone. I suspect they will continue to lie and eventually Change all 4 of our iPhone plans.

Need help
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] hooked82:
I've got the Inspire 4G and just got the text and letter in the mail saying that I've been tethering and they will automatically convert me over to a Tethering plan if I don't stop after the 30th.

The only thing I tether for is to hookup my G-Slate to my phone to look at the same websites I would look at on my phone, just on a bigger screen. No biggie, but I can do without it in the future.

I talked to the manager in this department today (or at least that's what she told me) and she said that even if you are streaming music via the internet and want to hookup your phone to Bluetooth headset or external Bluetooth speakers (Like the $200 Jawbone set I just bought), it would be considered Tethering and they will switch me over.

To me, this is absolute bull$#!^
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] fincan:
That is bull****, and there is simply no way for them to know that you are using a BT headset or using the HDMI output to TV. Basically they are pulling these out of their bottom parts.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] hooked82:
Went and had a few "words" with a worker at the AT&T store just now and they said the exact same thing. I have no clue how they would find that out, but I'm sure they would do all they could to get another user off of the Unlimited Data Plan.

And I don't want to risk that. Hopefully the poster talking to his lawyer will have some more info on this.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Schoralous:
I was thinking about this today in legal respects and a thought occured to me. Would you mind passing the idea on to your lawyer since you already have a dialog established with him regarding this, and it sounds like he actually has a technical clue :) ?

The idea/thought was that in many respects this is a very similiar legal situation to the one that took place with Cox cable providing internet connections on their cable network. Cox got into a little bit of a bind because they were extensively (and still are) filtering traffic on their hi speed IP to customer network (residential). Specifically they were blocking incoming ports for mail/http servers on the claim that you cannot host a server on their network.

In the legal battle that followed it was ultimately decided that Cox which started soley as a cable television company, was a 'content' provider and not an ISP, therefore they could legally filter incoming traffic to their customers to prevent server hosting, as well as do network probes to find illegal servers. The distinction ultimately came down soley to the "content" vs IP Provider.

This may be an avenue to explore since that argument has failed in the past for telephone/IP providers who clearly were telephone/IP Providers. AT&T is unarguably a Telephone/IP/Internet provider so they could not claim the "content" exemption that Cox was able to.

Anyways, just an idea to explore.

---------- Post added 29th September 2011 at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was 28th September 2011 at 11:59 PM ----------

There are NUMEROUS ways for them to tell.

Remember these are Unix network devices. Basically a PC running Unix on your hip or in your pocket. They are no longer phones. The only phone component is a VOIP Application (similiar to vonage) and a radio network adapter (souped up wifi) instead of a hardwired one.

They can telnet/ssh into them any time they want technically. I do it with mine all the time. From the command line they can see what processes are running, what databases are in use, whhich have been edited, etc.., etc.., etc.. - They can see anything a system administrator on a normal unix machine can see, which is the world, nothing is hidden.

Also, since they wrote the drivers/apps that do the tethering/HDMI/Bluetooth/etc.. those drivers/apps can easily tell a remote server sitting at AT&T when they are being used or what apps total are being used on the device/smartphone - Although this is a little unlikely since it would possibly bring up privacy issues, although it should be checked into

Even if they do not remote log into the phone they can tell all kinds of things by what the radio in your phone tells the cell tower.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] DraglineDrummer:
So maybe this is a stupid question but if I am on a capped data plan already am I free to tether all I want or will they still *****?
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Schoralous:
They will ***** I believe. Pretty sure you have to actually add/pay for tethering on all their plans.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] DraglineDrummer:
That's what I figured. I was just curious. I just picked up an IPad but without 3G so was curious if I could do it when traveling. It's not often enough to need the 3G but was hoping this might be a possible way.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] magecca:
Scholarous, buddy: No, no and no

NO THEY MAY NOT. Notice I said "may not" not "cannot"

Although you are correct, these are UNIX computing devices, NO ONE has the right to probe your computer; without the expressed written permission of you or a judge (IE warrant). And the latter is only issued if they have probable cause to believe a crime is taking place or has taken place. AT&T is not a judge and AT&T is not you.

Tethering (even if AT&T considers it a breach of contract and a means to screw you) is not a criminal offense.

If AT&T is probing your device for any reason they are breaking the law. They only legally have the ability to run certain types of queries on the traffic in transit over their infrastructure and probably only certain conditions (there are probably very, very limited conditions)

Any ISP or anyone is legally forbidden to probe a privately owned computing device without permission from the owner (or judge.) The crime is otherwise referred to as hacking. However, currently the law's definition of a computing device excludes a wireless router (since in simple terms does not calculate or create any information it only forwards it, according to their terminology) but only if it's not a government wireless router or a financial institutions wireless router - funny right? (*LAST TIME I CHECKED, MAY HAVE CHANGED*)

Yes, undoubtedly there are ways they or anyone could determine if you are using certain processes or BT devices, however, the means would be illegal.

Furthermore, if the transfer of voice data from the phone to a BT headset during a phone call is not "tethering" than it's absurd to insert the idea that any other audio transfer from the device to a BT device should be considered "tethering."

Before AT&T can [should] enforce any measures [under contract law] regarding tethering the definitions need to be clearly defined and clearly presented to the consumer in an apparent manner to which the consumer can agree to.

A representative saying something is not explicitly accepted as the truth or the fact as far as the company is concerned, they have arbitration in place that can excuse whatever a rep says if they are grossly wrong, for instance, to help protect against law suits.

**DISCLAIMER** I am not a doctor, nor a lawyer **
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] live4nyy:
My question is, how come none of the "tech" media has picked up on this? I have "tipped" a couple blog sites but I still see no mention of this. The implications of this is probably more far reaching than anyone of us can comprehend at this time. If indeed AT&T is doing something illegal or is breaching our contracts than we have the right to know and, therefore, have the right to terminate said contracts. Corporate America has to learn sooner or later that it cannot do whatever they want. We have to stand up and defend ourselves against this.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] pukemon:
Not a good reason but tmob deal is getting more attention.

I voided my warranty and your mum.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] wayne2410:
Hey I know this is about AT&T tethering and I also saw something about going to sprint ....just my two cents...

SPRINT is not true unlimited I've been with sprint since 07 had a Best Buy Mobile emp plan it was free for a year after if you wanted to keep plan you had to do go through app process yada yada I kept mine.

I had Free and clear 3000 mins everything else unlimited.

Well as of Sept 2011 I received a vm followed by a letter saying that I exceeded my data limit and that as of Oct I will no longer have sprint services I was advised that my only opt is to port my number out and ETF would be waived.

Also if one does a Google search customers have been kicked of sprint for calling customer care excessively.

I was out of contract so I went ahead and upgraded my phone to Nexus S 29.99 and ported my number out to T-Mobile
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] wayne2410:
Pukemon T-Mobile deal pretty sweet once you hit data limit they throttle you until next bill cycle data speeds reset.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] pukemon:
I was trying to say media not picking it up because all eyes are onn atnt and tmob right now. Im thinking about switching to tmob and.mayne even sprint. Sick of atnt s ****. And there are some big markets supposedly not getting gs2 for some reason.

I voided my warranty and your mum.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Simba501:
It seems that they are finding any reason to get unlimited data plans out. I've noticed at least one person that had their line accused of tethering, when indeed, they had not been tethering. Another person indicated that streaming music would be regarded as tethering. I think they're just trying to get everyone over to the tiered BS. I got the text and I'm going to contact them soon. If they try to pull it on me, I'm freakin cancelling. I'm prepared to deliver on that threat as well. :mad:
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] s1mpd1ddy:
i stream constantly ---- tether rarely ---- and i averaged the past 6 months.. 6.1 gigabytes (with 11 gb in june because i was on vacation and streamed a couple movies using SubSonic).

I have yet to receive a text or a letter, but I'm waiting for it though.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] duchski:
AT&T MVNO (reseller) H2O offers free everything for $60 with no taxes or fees. (you lose roaming so wherever AT&T does not have towers you dont get any bars)

T-Mobile MVNO Simple Mobile offers unlimited everything for $60 as well.

If you stay on AT&T then remember to change your DNS to google's 4.4.4.4. instead of using AT&T's own name server. Name server requests from browsers, mail clients etc etc are a dead give away of tethering.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Schoralous:
Actually they can with most people.

Why? Because in most cases, you don't own your phone outright. It's called subsidizing, look it up. AT&T has every right to remote access your phone if your a subsidized customer.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] pukemon:
'splain how people got bent over with the nexus one then? wasn't subsidized or on contract.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Schoralous:
Then AT&T has no access right, legally. Just like they have no access to my Atrix since I bought it outright. However 99.9% of all mobile devices sold in this country are subsidized - that is how the US carriers are selling phones/tablets/devices for discounted rates

That does not prevent them however from using any number of other means, looking from the perspective of the network towards the device to determine if you are tethering. Nor does this prevent them from embedding code in an app to report usage. While you would think that is against the law for privacy reasons, it actually is not, so long as AT&T does not disclose that usage information to anyone else.

Another thing to remember. Just because they "legally" can't doesn't mean they don't do it. If they did remote access the phone, it would be the customers responsibility (legally) to prove how and when they did it. Extremely difficult to prove that in a court of law and AT&T knows this.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] statusphere:
I know when I moved I relied on my droid with unlimited data for primary internet for about 3 months and I used 45GB/mo (500 kb/s to 1mb downspeed) easy and I never got served. Then again I have been with ATT for 13yrs.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] wallsg:
So, PLEASE explain to me why they think I am tethering when I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT. I AM NOT TETHERING. I DO NOT TETHER. They say I am. I am not. (BTW, this is basically what calling them evolves into.)

I am not lying.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] bigb252:
All in all, its just a BIG plot by AT&T to scare those that are tethering to stop, or lose your Unlimited Data plan AND be forced to a more expensive 4GB tethering plan.

Blame greed. And the iPhone. ;)
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] slimslim:
http://www.att.com/esupport/article...04&pv=3&title=An+overview+of+device+tethering

It doesn't say anything about streaming Pandora over Bluetooth speakers/headphones or car audio.

And also on AT&T data plans, Data Plus (the 2GB one) is recommended for video/media streaming, doesn't say you need tethering.

And if I recall correctly, when I was pushed in to the mandatory unlimited data plan for smartphones about 3 and a half years ago, media streaming was ine of the main points they pushed to justify the need of unlimited.

If they do this I'll switch right away, this is pure greed.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Simba501:
You're the second person I've seen, who doesn't tether, that has been accused of tethering. I believe you and the other poster I saw. There's no reason to lie on a forum, posting anonymously.

I completely agree. This is more about getting rid of unlimited data, than it is about tethering. They try to find any excuse to get you to change. I've read that people were told that they had to change their data plans because they wouldn't be able to access the internet. Preposterous.

Ditto, and indeed it is. The CSR I spoke with also said streaming music in the car or watching YouTube and "connecting it to a larger screen" would both be considered tethering. This is getting ridiculous. That isn't even sharing data, which is how the rep initially defined it.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Crappyvate:
Thanks. Any idea what ttl value is for mac or where to look ?
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] Schoralous:
MAC is Unix (BSD) so it should be 56. Not all Unix is 64. nor are all Windows releases 128.

For example, I administer several FreeBSD and Linux boxes. Default TTL on FreeBSD is 56, redhat linux 64, my windows xp box is 64 - MS didn't go to 128 until Windows Vista.

Also be aware a lot of network drivers/apps change this. Right now I am using a cellular USB dongle on sprints net and the driver has changed the TTL on that connection to 49 - go figure why, I don't know but still.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] magecca:
A subsidized device doesn't mean "we own the phone until you fulfill your contract."

You own the device and the rights to it.

They subsidized a certain amount of cash towards the phone, not the phone.

"Subsidy" is defined as "monetary assistance" not "property assistance."

If they did indeed own the device this would be a whole different topic of conversation. AT&T would just remotely disable tethering ability and lock the phone down to the highest extent... but they don't, so they may not do that.

[Edit]

In the interest of hypothetical discussion: Let's say AT&T did have certain rights over subsidized devices.

Is anyone going to assert that AT&T has systems and process in place that allow them to probe only subsidized devices while not probing non-subsidized devices? And security to facilitate the information they obtain?

What kind of cross-referencing system would have to be employed that makes those checks and balances, is there a field on my account that is tagged with non-subsidized? Think of the rather large civil liability they assume on said system when they "accidentally" probe a device and someone private metrics or information leaks into the public and I get terminated from my job, my girlfriend leaves me and my bank account is mysteriously emptied; because I made a comment about my job in a text to a friend, an x-girlfriend sent me a naughty photo and I used mobile banking on my device

[/Edit]
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] stewartsoda:
I suggested this before but don't want to do it.

PREREQUISITE- YOU MUST NOT HAVE TETHERED IN THE PAST -

1. Change the TTL on your phone to something non-default (try 63, for instance, see above that linux default is 64). (also- I don't even know if this is possible, but I assume it is)

2. See if you get a notice for tethering.

3. ...

4. Profit!

Okay, so no profit unless you win a lawsuit, but at least we'll be able to tell that that is one way they are catching tethering. There may be other ways, though, too.
[Atrix 4G Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] ChumleyEX:
I can say this, UDP isn't exclusive to tethering (if tethering is UDP), any time you stream information it's with UDP. There isn't time for it to use TCP because tcp always double checks its work, this adds data which slows things down.

So things like Pandora, netflix, youtube, and even some mail systems use UDP, BUT there is a number affiliated with the phones download. If you are tethering ( you say you aren't ) then the other device will add a plus 1 to that number and they will see that number not being 250 but 251.

Can anyone verify if tethering uses UDP exclusively? IS there a netstat that can be ran on the phone while it's tethering or do we know if the tethering service has an affiliated port?

The thing about talking to a customer service person at ATT is that they don't know what they are talking about, they are telling you what someone else told them. If they knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't be working the horrible job of customer service (maybe Tier 2 data support would). If they are wrong about the UDP thing (you say you don't tether) then it won't stand in the courts. Computers run on logic, yes has to be yes, there can't be a maybe or a no unless it's no. BS is BS and a computer don't lie about that.

---------- Post added at 09:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

If that were the case I am streaming to my headphones several times a day.