yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[XPERIA X10 General] theskeptic:
2011 and people still believe this ****? DRM never stopped piracy, and it never will. DRM exists for one reason and one reason only and that is to dictate to the end user how/why/where/when they can use whatever it was that they bought. Need proof of this? Region coding as a protection mechanism on dvds to prevent sales from other countries. It is also indiscrimate in that it interferes with a persons legitimate rights. When Sony decided a good way to impliment copy protection was to install rootkits on the end users hardware this removed the ability for users to legitimately make backups of their own cd for use on devices such as mp3 players. Then theres Sony's DRM abomination ATRAC. Complete and utter garbage sold to the general public under the guise of mp3 when it was nothing of the sort.

I will go as far to say that piracy exists specifically because of companies like Sony. Funny though that when the shoe is on the other foot and it's them being screwed the whiners come crawling out of the woodwork spouting the typical intellectual property rhetoric. Dinosaurs.
[XPERIA X10 General] MJ_QaT:
Is this a public threat? :p
[XPERIA X10 General] :
Calm down, I thought you were friends already :D

Every company has the right of doing what they consider it's the correct thing or the accurate strategy to success.

If SE consider the bootloader should be locked, that's all right for them. Keep in mind that we won't change their statement, no matter how many threads we open for requesting/demanding this, or how many letter we write to SE. That happened with the (already old and so overdiscussed) thing about giving A2.2 or 2.3 to X10, they just won't do it arguing a millions of things that at the end, we didn't accept and I personally didn't understand. Their reasons weren't enough for me. Anyway, I've already learnt to live with Eclair in my X10 and the good update that we at least got: Dualtouch (hey, is NOT multitouch). I still have the hope that we will get one more nice thing, Im looking at 16 M colours feature.

However, we'll see if those decisions and statements are the right strategy to achieve what they want. We'll see the results into their financial reports at the end of this 2011, if they get nice results, then SE will have enough arguments to shut us up. But if is the other way around... I'd hate to say "I told you guys". ;)

Now, back to the main thread: we could discuss and discuss about piracy, cracking, right-wrong things... And at the end, the booloader WILL be cracked, for the happiness of million of people and for for the anger of SE. I remember that SONY said once that the PS3 wouldn't be cracked and now it is. So, the bootloader will be cracked sooner or later. A perfect total protection doesn't exist. I really don't see any bad consequences for cracking the bootloader (at least not for me), Im thinking about the benefits of it, because Im not a rich boy with enough money to be spending it every year buying a new smartphone just to have the latest Android version on it: I don't really use the other features like Exmor in Arc or a second Camera in Neo for example, 'cause Im not a photographer and video call isn't a big deal in my country. I KNOW X10 is capable to run A2.2/2.3 without problems, and I rather to donate to the XDA Devs. than spending $$$ in a new phone when I haven't taken a full advantage of my current one yet.

It's about reasoning a little bit more basing in our points of view.
[XPERIA X10 General] BobSlob:
Not really sure what the deal here is. I guess a moral debate can break out but lets not forget that cracking the PS3 is still illegal. Remember that thing called the DMCA that was put in place by elected officials? Regardless of your reason, be it total control or piracy, doesn't really matter. Its still illegal. Don't like it? Write to your congressman.

Sure, geohot didn't rob the store, but he gave the gun to the guy who did.
[XPERIA X10 General] MJ_QaT:
Well said :cool:
[XPERIA X10 General] fiscidtox:
Yes since law and legality is an absolute truth... :rolleyes:

Just to let you know appeal to a higher authority is a logical fallacy.
[XPERIA X10 General] MJ_QaT:
I thought so too :p

anyway, I guess at the end we have to see, true nothing is called perfect security, but what it does is postponed the cracking till later. By the time they crack the bootloader, SE will have two options, either accept it and say "well it was fun while lasted" or to try and come up with another method to lock it again. I rather the first choice since it will save money and resources ( if it was my company anyway )

Other companies tried to follow SE lead by adding bootloader ( Samsung is one example ) but by the end it was cracked quickly ( very quickly )....

some support bootloader cracking just like you, to upgrade the OS to latest. And I really don't see anything wrong with it since the 2.2 and 2.3 are open-source and can be used free. However, others want that especially for Xperia Play to have games for free ( piracy includes applications ) which I am against it
[XPERIA X10 General] totalundone:
I'm not specifically singling you out, it's just the last post that mentions this (and it's been mentioned several other times by others). I'm genuinely interested.

How does unlocking the bootloader allow for people to have games for free? Right now, anyone can download any apk and install it on their X10 with this locked bootloader. If piracy was the issue then they would simply remove the option to install applications from external sources (like AT&T does for all their Android handsets & disallowing sideloading of apps). Or are we talking about the PS3?
[XPERIA X10 General] compumasta:
It might be "illegal" but no real law is being broken by using your own products. The courts generally side with the consumers on this but many cases don't get finished because the person runs out of money before Sony does. See Sony vs bleem with regards to emulators for example. Bleem ran out of money but they weren't wrong. Same will apply to geohot if he doesn't run out of money, he will win the case.

Sent from my Delorean using a flux capacitor!
[XPERIA X10 General] MJ_QaT:
I was talking in general to be honest, but regarding locking the bootloader to prevent piracy, it's all about DRM ( Digital Rights Management ), it's basically similar with the PS3, you have to unlock it first to be able to install contents and play free games. Same theory will be applied to the Xperia Play, once you crack it, you can have anything especially downloading games for free that originally made for the PS Suite. It's true that you can install any .apk from the internet even with the bootloader locked, that's because it wasn't SE's concern, they only were concerned about their partners' rights.
[XPERIA X10 General] swedishcancerboi:
Conspiracy much? Jeez...

Sent from my pocket.
[XPERIA X10 General] icet925:
I totally agree with you. Don't see my self getting this psp phone or another phone anytime soon. I got x10 when it first came out and still loving it. Sheeples will always want to follow the crowd.
[XPERIA X10 General] theskeptic:
What part of the DMCA states that modifying hardware for personal use is illegal? Oh there isnt any. There is even an explicit exemption within the DMCA that provides for circumvention of protection technologies where those technologies interfere with a persons legitimate usage rights. As pointed out by others, Sony have stated that the boot loader is locked down for reasons other than piracy, therefore DMCA does not apply and if they tried to apply it then the exemption would apply as the bootloader restricts legitimate uses of the hardware, i.e. the flashing of competing roms. Here are two such exemptions to DMCA that apply in this case;

(third-party software)

(2) Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset.

(simlock ect)

(3) Computer programs, in the form of firmware or software, that enable used wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telecommunications network, when circumvention is initiated by the owner of the copy of the computer program solely in order to connect to a wireless telecommunications network and access to the network is authorized by the operator of the network.

Rulemaking on Exemptions from Prohibition on Circumvention of Technological Measures that Control Access to Copyrighted Works

Eh? Thanks for contributing.
[XPERIA X10 General] pngface:
I thought locking down the bootloader was more to do with making sure people don't steal their precious UXP, ie rip out timescape/mediascape and install it on other phones for example
[XPERIA X10 General] BobSlob:
PS3 is a phone now? Wikkit
[XPERIA X10 General] lightyear420:
No. it isn't and never will be PSP will be included with android phones starting Q2 this year.
[XPERIA X10 General] theskeptic:
Latteral thinking isn't your strong point is it. This thread is about the cracking of the Play which some seem to think is parallel in comparison to the cracking of the PS3. Therefor if one thinks that the cracking of either the PS3 or the Play is somehow in violation of the DMCA they would be wrong on both counts and the DMCA has specific exclusions in both of these cases.

That is unless Sony can prove the PS3 was cracked for no other reason than piracy and even then a judgement in their favour would contradict in part the rules of exclusion. Throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak.
[XPERIA X10 General] Neo.:
Geohot says he's looking into security of Xperia X10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0FJ5Jimj2w

Interesting read.
[XPERIA X10 General] swedishcancerboi:
You're welcome.

Sent from my pocket.
[XPERIA X10 General] bra1n0uk:
Lets hope he has joy, although i still think its going to take some time.
[XPERIA X10 General] MarylandCookie:
Something somewhat on topic but very worth the read about SONY:

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2011/02/sonys-war-on-makers-hackers-and-innovators.html
[XPERIA X10 General] agentJBM:
I think he is trying to "please his fans" by saying that he would take a look. I don't know much about the case or laws surrounding it, but any attorney worth his salt would advise him to stop any such activity until the case is dismissed, settled, or won in court.

Continuing to hack during the investigation could be perceived as malice towards the court or Sony, and an unwillingness to cooperate that could possibly raise the $ amount being sought by Sony or the amount awarded by the judge.... IF he loses.

If found guilty of criminal activity, he could be banned from using or working on any such device for a period of time as a condition of his sentencing. Then everyone loses. My opinion is to leave him to deal with the business at hand. At only 21 years old he has a bright future, but his youth and fame could impair his judgment. What is best for his future should be his primary concern.

Either way, I wish him the best. Looking ahead, I have a feeling he will be a household name in the brave new world of technology.
[XPERIA X10 General] Hobbes2099:
While it definitely doesn't help his image before the jury, it is consistent with the argument he's using against Sony: "If I pay for hardware, then I own that hardware. Therefore, I get to use the that hardware anyway I please."
[XPERIA X10 General] lightyear420:
jailbreaking cellphones is perfectly legal. It's been ruled as such in court. SE has consistently said the main functions of their android devices is as a phone, first and fore-most. Case closed. there is nothing anyone can do about it, and that can not persuade the case at hand with PS3 in any way since it is a legal action. And that, most likely, will be the outcome of this particular situation as well. It will be a ruling specifically for game consoles/devices either for or against.
[XPERIA X10 General] xnewser:
SE is acting deeply wrong since they still think they are something like an end user just because they are building a product with Os obtained from Google. I don't know what kind of legal department they have but the end user are costumers.I would happy to determine if something was misunderstanding the original Google license and if Google has something to say since it was a little try before from Google asking to manufacturers to maintain its platform without so many restrictions.
[XPERIA X10 General] agentJBM:
I see what you mean, but trust me from a legal standpoint they are technically the end user. I remember a similar argument in college. They purchased the Android OS from Google, and they are using it as a component in their devices which makes them the end user. We are the end user of the X10. The OS by itself is of no use to us.

As for your second comment, I can't understand what you're trying to say.... "little try before from"??? Please give it another try, because I am interested in where you are going with this. :-)
[XPERIA X10 General] abdurahman:
wait I thought android itself was open-source? Then how could sony buy it from google if it was already available?
[XPERIA X10 General] xnewser:
Hmmm when a car manufacturer purchase a stereo hifi from an audio system brand then what happen with the car owner? I am a little sure about he would be the end user of his car stereo included .... About the latter, it was SE related trying to explain something inexplicable since in my opinion they have done an huge amount of mistakes recently with the End user getting the worst!
[XPERIA X10 General] agentJBM:
To be honest, I assume SE had to buy the license. Since SE is selling Android for a profit it would be safe to assume Google would be getting in on the action. After all, Google is not a non-profit organization. As a matter of fact, they are a publicly traded company who's purpose is to earn profits for its shareholders.

Just a guess, but I'm thinking Google may be more to blame for us getting stuck on 2.1. Google could have or even should have steered SE towards 2.2+ based on the timeline. Think about it, Android may be free open source, but it wasn't free to develop. Google has costs and profits to recoup from all its projects. Otherwise the shareholders (owners) are losing money on their investment. Not going to happen in a corporation. SE is a competitor as well as a client, so having the X10 behind the curve only helps HTC. Who's to say some slick Google "Account Executive (fancy title for salesman) pitched 2.1 because the Android 2.1 project was under pressure to recover development costs or turn a profit? So the Google salesman conveniently fails to warn SE that by the time they release 2.1 it will be outdated and the newer versions of Android 2.+ will not be compatible with 2.1, requiring SE to completely redo all of its customizations?

Not saying it did, but who knows? Could happen. Something similar probably has happened in the past.
[XPERIA X10 General] agentJBM:
What did you buy? A car or a stereo? A car or a bunch of nuts and bolts? What is using the stereo? The car is using the stereo, and you are using the car. Without the car, the battery, the dashboard, etc the stereo would not be of use to you. You can't drive a stereo. When the stereo breaks where do you take it? You take the car back to the dealership. The stereo is now a part of the car.

On your other point, what about Google releasing updates every few months that aren't compatible with the previous versions making them obsolete? What about Google not continuing to supporting 2.1? Couldn't some of the improvements found in 2.2 have been easily implemented in 2.1? Shouldn't Google have to support each OS for two years as well? Couldn't newer Android versions be made to integrate existing SE and other device's customizations? In my opinion, they seem to be the ones who have put us in a corner. They seem to be the ones who are driving the rapid turnover of technology and devices. We've just been too busy blaming SE for everything. Google owns Android not SE.

JMHO
[XPERIA X10 General] abdurahman:
that was totally understandable, thanks!
[XPERIA X10 General] lightyear420:
it would be nice if google could just release updates to android...It's insane how they release a new ROM every time there is something new to add. I think this is really the root of the problem here. If it were just a hotfix or an update of some sort then we wouldn't have any backwards compatibility issues and this would never be a topic to discuss in the first place.

I mean seriously....If individual dev's like Z with minimal resources (compared to google) can release hotfix updates for roms, why the hell can't Google figure it out?
[XPERIA X10 General] fiscidtox:
The fix would have to be different for each companies custom skins/versions, so that would solve nothing.
[XPERIA X10 General] Adeel Ahmad:
Well this is the main point. Why the hell is I Phone so popular, because of its software and its timely updates and its unified structure of not letting others mess with their hardware. Now google should set rules for companies not to mess with their stuff and do whatever they want with hardware.

This is extremely pathetic on part of Sony to leave customers like this but the main culprit here is Google. If Nexus One and Nexus S have same Rom then they should make it sure that every other manufacturer does the same. Now look at Samsung who were so slow in support of Galaxy S are going to be the first one to release Ginger Bread on a last year device. At least its one Company trying to make amends. Google should seriously look into it and tell all manufacturers that people will buy the new device based on hardware too not just software. I have had it with Android for last six months now and I was so happy on Symbian. Maybe I should move to Apple now.
[XPERIA X10 General] lft4ded:
The iPhone is so popular because the company that makes the hardware (to their specs) also makes the software (and the interface is supposed to be tops). Your iPhone is like my iPhone is like her iPhone.

Google attempts to allow you that experience with the Nexus phones. Those are the phones that you want as they are phones that support Android as Google intends it to be.

You don't blame Microsoft when Dell puts a funky piece of hardware without drivers into a Window's pc. You blame Dell. Likewise Google puts Android out there for other hardware manufacturers to use. They all know what it can and can't do and try to customize it to their hardware or with their UI's. Some succeed better than others.

The main culprit here is SE and the companies that don't backup their product with proper support. Samsung is trying to make amends, as you pointed out, by providing support for a phone that came out around the time of the X10. The question you should be asking is "Why isn't SE?"

And yes, companies know that HW matter. That's why there are so many Android phones with varying hardware specs. Camera's up to 1x MP, 2D/3D displays, keyboards, 2.8 - 5+ in screens, soft touch materials, metallic, differing battery sizes, antenna designs, processor types/speed/consumption, graphics chips, blah blah.
[XPERIA X10 General] Adeel Ahmad:
No matter which hardware you use Windows will always be the same. No Company tries to skin it and whenever a service pack is released, its installed on all kind of systems the same way. So again my point is that Microsoft is the one taking responsibility in providing updates and Google does provide updates but it should also collaborate with manufacturers a little more closely in order for the benefit of end user. I do agree that Sony is to blame but for a novice user its an Android based set which did not get updated by Sony and Sony was never pushed by Google in this matter. Never has there been any serious effort shown by Google to address such an issue. So at the end both parties are to blame.
[XPERIA X10 General] Flo95:
Is there a blog or something where we can look at to know if he made process in cracking the X10?
[XPERIA X10 General] agentJBM:
I am happy to see that finally Google has been brought into the discussion. Google is a the top of the food chain here, and they control everything including how the updates are implemented. While Android is free open source at our level, it is considered commercial use between the manufacturers. Meaning, the manufacturers like SE don't have Froyo and Gingerbread laying around for them to do what they please with it. Every release and device must be approved and licensed by Google, so comparing to our not-for-profit devs, j-t-z, is not a fair or realistic comparison.

Fiscidtox says that it's the phone companies fault that the updates aren't compatible. I don't agree. If Google wanted every device to be running the current version of Android, then they would have followed the 15+ year old model by M$. They are the ones who made our 2.1 obsolete by only supporting it for a few months, and not setting up protocol to make sure new updates are backwards compatible. That is basic programming 101. You don't think Google knows what the phone companies are doing? Just like we expect support from SE, they get support from Google. What are we supposed to believe that they just forgot? The only logical explanation is that it was intentional.

How does Google control something that is supposed to be free open source, effectively unlimiting the lifecycle of smartphones? By releasing updates that are not compatible, so we have to buy new devices every 2 years. You can say it's the bootloader, but I am talking about the 90%+ that don't hack their phones.
[XPERIA X10 General] Adeel Ahmad:
I agree with you on all accounts but don't agree on 2 years thing. They have brought us down to a six month cycle.
[XPERIA X10 General] fiscidtox:
They don't get support from google, google makes nothing from this (from android os by itself) unlike microsoft who sell each copy of windows, so that comparison is unfair...

Google knows what companies are doing but it would be impossible for them to put out one update that would be compatible for all skins if android... How can you blame them because a company decides (knowing that android will have updates) to make a custom skin that THEY don't plan on further developing? They are the ones capitalizing from this scenario not google, therefor who should be paying for the research/development?