[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
HD Video Rate Calculations

"There is my specific problem, because it simply is not true. your entire diatribe is based on one assuption: that the user is from the start of the billing cycle to that 7 hour mark is constantly downloading information..."

No, the usage does not have to start at the beginning of a billing cycle, nor does the usage need to be continuous to arrive at the result stated in the OP. I stated the assumption of a download data rate of 2 mbps that I chose rather randomly from the 0.5 mbps to 14 mbps speeds available from TMO. Downloads over any period or groups of periods (a minute here and a minute there, for example) with an average download speed of 2 mbps would result in a cap after approximately 7 hours. The 7 hours could be distributed anywhere over the billing month. Note that I said average download speed. So, for example, you could do 3.5 hours at 1 mbps plus 3.5 hours at 3 mbps to result in an average of 2 mbps.

"And they are doing so with massive datahog applications. that is a bull**** assumption."

Well, you can call the high-bandwidth apps like T-Mobile TV and streaming video (movies) that the carriers are touting "massive datahog applications" if you like. I would not quibble with such characterization. But the fact that such apps have been rolled out, are being used, are being highly touted by the carriers, and that their use results in download speeds similar to that of my assumption (2 mbps) is evidence that my assumption is not "bull****."

"By the way you are overreacting to that cap you would assume that everyone who has a 3g enabled phone doing whatever they do online all of a sudden will get cut off after 7 hours of usage."

No, I did not say that at all. If you read the OP that way, I suggest that you re-read it...and that you read more carefully in general in the future to prevent misunderstanding important subject matter. This is what I said at the conclusion of the OP, in red bold text no less, just for you :rolleyes: so that you would not miss it:

An "unlimited" TMO data plan provides about 7 hours of access monthly, based upon advertised and provided speeds, before one is cut off from useful data access. Your available number of hours will vary according to the data speeds that you experience/utilize." And: "our carrier's plan provides for 2 mbps use of our phone about 1% of the time or about 25 minutes per day."[/COLOR]

"The only way that would ever happen is if someone is using their phone as an internet tether for their computer, and in that case they should pay for a usb dongle and the tethering service so they don't get cut off."

No, that is incorrect. Tethering uses a variable amount of data, depending upon what you are doing. E.g., (generally speaking), checking email downloads very little data; Internet surfing downloads a medium amount of data; streaming video downloads a large amount of data; and downloading files could occur at any speed at which the TMO radio tower link supports your connection while tethered. Suppose, for example, that you download two HD videos (~5 GBytes)while the tower connects you at 5 mbps. The download would take:

(5 x 10E9 bytes) * 9 bits/byte = 45 x 10E9 bits (45 billion bits)

(45 x 10E9 bits) / 5 mbps = 9,000 seconds

9,000 seconds /3600 seconds/hr = 2.x hours. You would then be capped.

"If a user is not using their phone as a tether, then what for (insert diety here) sake are they doing to use up

5 GIGABYTES

of data data in 7 hours?"

Download two HD movies or combinations of other currently-promoted apps.

I discussed other current, real-world Android applications that people are using and calculated bandwidths and hours for these at the following posts of this thread:

Post #52: Standard definition video (~500 kbps): ~16 movies to reach cap

Post #54: YouTube video (~500kbps): About 25 hours to reach cap

Post #75: HD Video (~2 mbps): 3 GBytes/video => ~2 HD videos to reach cap

"For comparison, i have 15 hour long tv shows (so about 42 minutes without commercials) that add up to 4.78 gigabytes and 9 hours 42 minutes in length. i don't know of any phone application that would ever use up that amount of data in that short of a time period that would even get approval in the market.

I believe that you just answered your own question, bud! lol The app is called "T-Mobile TV." 9 hrs. 42 min. is pretty close to 7 hours, right? Surely you are not arguing about a 3-hour difference between your experience with TV video files and a reasonable speed assumption of 2 mbps that I chose rather randomly from the 0.5 mbps to 14 mbps speeds available from TMO? I believe that you just demonstrated the correctness of my calculations. lol

"So if they are not doing a bunch of high definition movie streaming in a short time period..."

You get 2 HD movies before capping. The time period does not matter. As I said before, you could watch 15 minutes now, 30 minutes later, the last 10 minutes on the last day of the billing period and then get capped for the rest of the day, etc.

"(And by the way, i dispute those [streaming HD video calculations] as well. not being an engineer but using my brain, those numbers don't look right)"

You do not need to be an engineer to follow this, but you do need to use your brain. You cannot simply glance at the equations and determine that they do not "look" right. These calculations use simple multiplication and division of large numbers; and of course you must keep the units straight. This is eigth grade math.

I gave you the Wikipedia reference for HD video and did the calculations at post #75. Let's see if you can follow this with a little tutoring...

(1) Look at the Wikipedia reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

(2) Scroll down to "Profiles." Read the definitions for XP ("extended profile" for streaming video) and HiP ("high definition profile" for HD video).

(3) Scroll down further to the "Levels" table to see the HiP bitrate for our screen resolution, 5 mbps.

(4) Calculate the number of GBytes in one hour of HD video using the 5 mbps (mbits/sec) rate that we just read from Wikipedia:

(5 mb/sec) * (60 sec/minute) * (60 minutes/hour) = 18 gbits/hour

Note: The "seconds" are in a numerator ("upstairs") and in a denominator ("downstairs"), so they cancel. Likewise the minutes. Just multiply (5 mbits*60*60) to get 18 Gbits.

(6) Now, convert bits to bytes using 9 bits/byte to allow for error correction overhead:

(18 Gbits/hour) / (9 bits/byte) = 2 Gbytes/hr.

Note: Bits cancel, because one is in numerator and one in denominator, leaving the units as "bytes/hr".

See, not so hard if you just dive in and do the math.

However, if after all of this you are still not convinced, then I urge you to simply download two full-length HD movies to see what happens. I would wait to do the experiment until the last day of your billing cycle, however. Let us know how it goes... rofl!

"I would love to know how some average user would be able to consume that much data so quickly."

Hopefully by now you do.

Of course I cannot peer into your mind. However, looking at and thinking about your posts, I believe that this may be your stumbling block:

"5 gigs is a lot of data."

Whether something is "a lot" often depends upon the context. You are probably accustomed to dealing with traditional data files. Receiving an email may result in a download of a few KB. A Word doc may be a few tens or hundreds of KB. A large pdf may be 1-2 MB or more, a hi-res photo 3-15 MB, an mp3 download 2-3 MB, etc. Relative to these traditional data file sizes, 5 GB is "a lot" of data.

Hopefully, though, if you have been following this post and not dozed off, you now know that 5 GB is not a lot of data relative to streaming video, movie downloads, etc. Don't feel like the lone ranger. These media represent a new paradigm for the carriers as well. They are building out capacity as fast as they can (afford?) in order to capture new subscribers with the allure of the new media. They need new subscribers to pay for the infrastructure, so they advertise the new services to capture the new subscribers. However, the infrastructure is not yet built out with the capacity required to support the new services in any reasonable volume. Chicken...egg, get it? The subject of the OP is this chicken/egg situation. The carriers advertise the new media/services before having finished building out the network to support the capacity required to use the new services. Early adopters attempting to use the new services are rightly upset as a result.

Now, I have patiently done all in my power to help you understand this subject matter. Someone else with better teaching skills than mine will have to jump in at this point if you still don't get it.

BTW, I love to be wrong and I love to look back and realize that I was ignorant about one subject or another (as many as possible); because if this is not happening, then I am not learning...and then I die, as they say.

In the meantime, I try to avoid throwing these types of expressions around loosely unless/until I have my facts in order:

"From a logic standpoint your argument is ridiculous on its face because it is based on flawed assumptions."

The carriers are betting billions of dollars that my assumption of the use of high data-rate applications is not flawed. lol