yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
You lost me there, bud. I agree that a common download rate is ~30 mb/min (or, more commonly stated, ~500 kbps). But how does that translate into the download size "every time you watch a video"? The download size would depend upon the length of the video, would it not?

"that's, at worst, 26 minutes of YouTube per 1GB."

(30 mb/min) / (~9 bits/byte) = 3.3 MB/min

1 GB /(3.3 MB/min) = 303 minutes not 26 minutes. (Or, about 25 hours of YouTube per month before throttling. You could argue that doing so would be a waste of time; and I would not argue with that at all.)

"For those of you that still cant add that up..." triple rofl :eek:

"T-Mobile does not shut off your internet; it simply cuts off your 3G access until the end of your billing cycle."

Try surfing the net at EDGE speeds. lol
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
(2) Yes, of course. (Although I would state the quantity as "capacity to subscriber formula [ratio]; same thing.) Any such ratio that is older than a year or two would be completely meaningless as it would relate to ancient technologies.

Further, I believe that the carriers are and have been aggressively increasing capacity/subscriber (in addition to the much-touted maximum theoretical instantaneous download speeds). Were it not so, increasing EDGE networks to 3G technology (for example) would have resulted in a subscriber's being able to access the network only rarely. When I say "capacity" here I mean aggregate bandwidth available from any given tower.

The problem is that they are (obliquely) representing tomorrow's capacity/subscriber ratio as though it were in place today. That is a no-no.
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
That is because "average users" have not yet turned on TMO-TV. lol

And could you please cite to your reference to that FCC estimate? If legitimate, I need to call the FCC and tell them about TMO-TV, NetFlix, online gaming, etc. so that they can update their estimates. lol
[Vibrant General] t1n0m3n:
Or it could be called "marketing." Everything about communications has been forward looking for as long as I can remember. What you are calling a "no-no" has been the reality for years. What makes it different now?

The majority of the money that you pay in, pays for the new bigger, better network of tomorrow. (Paid) Research today equals a faster network for tomorrow. This has been the formula for years, are you suggesting a change now?
[Vibrant General] funeralthirst:
you do realize that not everywhere has 3g, let alone hspa+, right? and people in those areas pay the same price as you do.
[Vibrant General] sastian:
you just FAILED. it is NEVER time for the FED to Step in.
[Vibrant General] ntellegence:
The real problem is the tv networks. They control/own a lot of unused frequencies which could widen the cellular networks. When ask to free up some frequencies their response is we need it. It's like the vacant lot with the "coming soon" sign and nothing is ever built. Which means thing are only going to get worse. Tmo, sprint and att need to deal with the fcc and try to use eminent domain to get frequencies. With that said the problem people and myself have is false advertising. Even if I used 2kbs a month I pay for a plan that said its unlimited without any asterik or footnote changing the universal definition of that word. Even now I went into a tmo store and they have no idea about thr 5gb limit. I wouldn't even be that mad if they slowed the phone so it could still function.
[Vibrant General] Longcat14:
It wouldn't be bad if they throttled you THAT slow. Oh well, at least I haven't hit my cap YET.
[Vibrant General] ctkatz:
the op is assuming too much, so much so that i would consider all of his numbers hogwash and irrelevant to the average user.

we have a wifi router at home and i have wifi at work. but from vibrant release day until january i never turned on my wifi because the 3g was faster than the wifi at home or at work. and i pretty much used the vibrant as a handheld/pocket netbook. didn't talk on it but did a bunch of surfing and internet radio streaming and podcast downloading and app downloading. also during this time i had two to three widgets that regularly refreshed data at least every 30 minutes.

i only once went over 5gb. and that was because i used the appbrain method of backing up my apps instead of using titanium backup when i started experimenting with roms.

how many people are using their phones for an internet tether for their desktops/laptops? i'd wager not that many. if you are hitting that cap and you aren't tethering, i would think you are streaming fully featured high def movies constantly. for your average user who youtubes and surfs a lot 5gb is plenty. it is the tetherers who are putting the most "strain" on the network. if this was my only internet source, i would go for a usb dongle and just pay for the tethering option with the hope that by tethering they won't throttle you after 5 gb.
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
3G/4g speeds are obtained by bundling varying numbers of sub-channels when a subscriber connects. So, from an engineering standpoint, it is certainly theoretically possible to allow 3G but cap 3G access to 500kbps, for example. Whether a given carrier's particular tower equipment supports this, I do not know.
[Vibrant General] ipetloudog:
You, kind sir, have never been capped and do not understand IMHO.
[Vibrant General] ipetloudog:
I just rage a little bit when people say the cap is at edge speeds and it's a minor setback, and then say im a bandwith glutton. "oh noes, u have to wait a lil longer for a youtube video"

No. I have to wait 23 minutes for a 5 min video. Its slower than edge. It takes about 1-2 minutes just for google to pull up my search results. Dial up isnt even that rough.

[EDIT] and about 20 seconds to change to the next page of simple text on the xda app im currently browsing.
[Vibrant General] funeralthirst:
I was mad when my cable company (and the ONLY option for broadband in my area) would throttle from my 3 or 4Mbps (i don't remember which speed i had) down to 1.5Mbps (or maybe it was 512Kbps, this was a long time ago). they would throttle you until midnight if you downloaded something like over 300mb in a three hour period or 500mb in a 12 hour period. i was throttled nearly every day by a company for which i had no other choices for service. the company has since stopped throttling, though as far as i'm aware.

but throttling after 5Gb on a phone, when you have other choices for a carrier and they have slower speeds and more limited bandwidth? quit whining...
[Vibrant General] funeralthirst:
that 5 min youtube video is so important to watch on your phone you can't find a computer or wifi? honestly, it sounds like your problems are deeper than tmob throttling your bandwidth....
[Vibrant General] ipetloudog:
not a pity party post, but yes. I have muscular dystrophy and no access to wifi in my building. The govt gives me 645 bucks a month to survive on. Along with rent and my cell bill, which is my primary internet, I cant afford time warner's internet service.. Im one of the community that the cap really does put a dent in. I dont wish to switch to sprint because im on a flex plan from years of bad credit from hospital bullcrap. It was fine when I had my g1 but with the vibrant having flash, plus the speculation of hulu finally arriving...someone like me having a 5g cap is just crippling my reason for having this phone. I dont tether, but I watch conan every night. Stupid tbs.
[Vibrant General] rorycs:
My issue is this... ok so I pay for unlimited (5GB capped) service. Now if I want to use certain apps (ex. TMO TV, Bitbop, Radio, etc.) I have to pay for those too. So for me, I am paying for the right to use the data, then paying again for the right to use the service which consumes my data. Kind of like paying twice for something to me. Then if I "use" that premium service too much (paying for it movie by movie, show by show or song by song) I use up my data, get throttled, and now I have payed for a Data Service that for the most part is not usable (kind of like a race car with mice under the hood running as fast as they can chasing an Indy car) until my bill cycle is up.

For me, if you want me to pay for TV or Pay to watch a movie for example, then don't count my TV or movie Data consumption against my 5GB cap. If we pay extra for a Premium Service, that service should come with enough data to make it usable. The way it is now, I blow through my data using services I am paying for - this is where the government needs to step in. Sounds like double taxation to me!

And this "double taxation" will only get worse, as carriers see that their revenue from "minutes" is down and they see the opportunity to increase revenue as more and more data-centric services are offered for mobile platforms.
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
I have a suggestion for anyone who thinks that being capped to EDGE speeds is not a big deal:

(1) On your Vibrant, go to Settings--->Wireless and network--->Mobile networks--->Network mode and set the Network mode to "GSM only." Now you will be on the GSM EDGE data network.

(2) Use your smartphone for a day or so, including some casual Internet access; watch a YouTube video.

(3) Report back.

lol x17
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
Very interesting perspective that I had not considered.
[Vibrant General] ipetloudog:
I like u. no homo
[Vibrant General] funeralthirst:
I have a suggestion for anyone who thinks that being capped to EDGE is a big deal:

(1) Go to t-mobile.com->login to your account->check your data usage

(2) Don't use over 5Gb

(3) If 1&2 fail, report to verizon, att, sprint, etc.
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
Ok; how so? I love to learn. But a mere statement of condemnation without facts does not a good argument make. lol If you have a specific problem with any of my calculations or assumptions, please so indicate. Otherwise, your statements ring hollow...

If you are hitting that cap and you aren't tethering, i would think you are streaming fully featured high def movies constantly. for your average user who youtubes and surfs a lot 5gb is plenty.

It is unnecessary to state opinion here ("I would think...") The numbers are a matter of physics based on current video encoder technology, previously calculated in this thread at post # 52 for non-HD video and at post # 54 for YouTube video.

These are the calculations for HD Video:

HD video is compressed/encoded as H.264/MPEG-4 AVC at 5 mbps:

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

(5 mb/sec) * (3600 sec/hr) = 18 gb/hr = 2 gBytes/hr.

(2 gBytes/hr) * (1.5 hrs/movie) = 3 gBytes per movie.

So, you could watch less than two HD movies per month on an “unlimited” plan.

What subscriber plan would support this poster’s assertion that “I would think you are streaming fully featured high def movies constantly…”?

(2 gBytes/hr) * (720 hrs/month) = 1.44 terabytes/month.

Now that would be some plan, huh? lol By the way, carriers’ currently-advertised speeds do support such a thing (5 mbps), if few enough people are connected to a tower. This discrepancy between speed and capacity is what I alluded to in the OP.

Why do people publicly make statements which show that they are clueless as to the subject matter being discussed?

“So much noise, so little time….”
[Vibrant General] BruceElliott:
Funeralthirst,

You are a T-Mobile employee, right? I see that you have been an apologist for T-Mobile in other threads as well:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=7485842

And here: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=10418275#post10418275

And here: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=10583659#post10583659

And here: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=10822701#post10822701 (Lots of knowledge about TMO plans.)
[Vibrant General] funeralthirst:
nope. regarding that thread, tmob had nothing to do with the gps in the vibrant, so calling them for credits is dumb... apologist? lol. i prefer tmob over other carriers, but they have definitely things to piss me off. throttling is not one of them.

i think whining about tmob's data plans on a phone development forum is pointless. take this crap to a more appropriate channel, like tmo news...

if i were a tmob employee, i probably wouldn't be telling people to go to another carrier...
[Vibrant General] hristopelov:
Well it sux but atleast is $20 and can use tethering and 4G..still pretty good deal
[Vibrant General] ctkatz:
okay...

there is my specific problem, because it simply is not true. your entire diatribe is based on one assuption: that the user is from the start of the billing cycle to that 7 hour mark is constantly downloading information, and they are doing so with massive datahog applications. that is a bull**** assumption. i think as evidenced by several people in this thread, even pretty heavy users, that they rarely if ever hit that cap. by the way you are overreacting to that cap you would assume that everyone who has a 3g enabled phone doing whatever they do online all of a sudden will get cut off after 7 hours of usage. the only way that would ever happen is if someone is using their phone as an internet tether for their computer, and in that case they should pay for a usb dongle and the tethering service so they don't get cut off.

if a user is not using their phone as a tether, then what for (insert diety here) sake are they doing to use up

5 GIGABYTES

of data data in 7 hours? 5 gigs is a lot of data. for comparison, i have 15 hour long tv shows (so about 42 minutes without commercials) that add up to 4.78 gigabytes and 9 hours 42 minutes in length. i don't know of any phone application that would ever use up that amount of data in that short of a time period that would even get approval in the market. so if they are not doing a bunch of high definition movie streaming in a short time period (and by the way, i dispute those as well. not being an engineer but using my brain, those numbers don't look right) or downloading a bunch of movies period i would love to know how some average user would be able to consume that much data so quickly. i don't see it happening. i also don't believe you listed what would cause someone to use up that much data so quickly either.

from a logic standpoint your argument is ridiculous on its face because it is based on flawed assumptions.
[Vibrant General] lawalty:
It refreshing to see this type of thread here, and 'real' people going back and forth with their opinions about the legitimacy of the data throttling cap.

I considered myself a light to moderate user never really going past 1.5gigs a month until I started using the paid t-mobile streaming services. I VERY RARELY tether, maybe wifi tether once a week for a few minutes so my wife can sync her Kindle app. I started hitting that pesky 5gig limit a few days prior to the end of the billing cycle. Its when my wife and I cut Time Warner cable out of our lives and used the internet to watch our TV and football shows. Now, we're still paying Time Warner for their high speed internet, its just we'er moved to away paying for cable. Well, I know I can simply (turn on) my wifi on my phone, but that consumes more battery, so I unconsciously don't turn it on, but geez.. Even with watching Hulu, Fancast, and The WB on our main TV using Time Warner internet, and only using T-Mobile TV from my phone very LIGHTLY (2-3 shows a week), Ive been hitting my 5gig limit faster and faster.

Man! What if I ditched my Vibrant, and purchased one of those NEW 4g Vibrants coming soon, as it is now, I couldn't use their video phone capability.

I just love reading about people's opinions on how they think if we are hitting the 5gig cap then we must be doing something wrong, or using data that we shouldn't be using.. WTF!!!! Opinions are like armpits, everybody has them, but some REALLY stink! I know my opinion stink to some folks but here it is...

I HATE THE 5GIG THROTTLING CAP, IT SUCKS, ITS STUPID, IF IM PAYING FOR UNLIMITED I SHOULD GET UNLIMITED!!!

Im not doing anything out of the ordinary on mobile usage. Except for T-Mobile TV, I don't even listen to Pandora. I DO take at least 10 photographs a week, and upload them to my photobucket account, which also accounts for data usage.

You know, I though for the longest time the FCC was the blame for the data caps, but I was wrong. Its the decision of the mobile carriers. I Wish another carrier would start and offer TRUE unlimited plans. Even if they are 3 to 4 times more money ILL STILL PURCHASE!!!
[Vibrant General] eltormo:
Extra extra the supreme court of US rules that now 5GB is the new meaning of Unlimited extra extra...:eek:

Keep it rolling Verizon was force to settle,i know T-mobile will be force to as well.
[Vibrant General] eltormo:
By who T-mobile suck ups that come here.? Because i love how they download roms,tether,watch youtube video and listen to pandora allot,yet they are not close to hit the cap.lol

Roms here go from 120 to almost 200 MB,video on youtube could take more than 60MB just for 4 or 5 minute video at a good bit rate.

I my self in 3 days hit 1.3 GB and i wasn't even tethering,just youtube and some pandora,youtube for 1 hour hugs allot of bandwidth if you did not know it,i should not use my connection like T-mobile wants is how i want is not T-mobile who pay my bill is me,and it wasn't me who say my internet access would be unlimited at 3 and 4G speeds it was was T-mobile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmnjL26OBcY

Here download that video to your phone,or stream it either way is 42MB for just 4 minutes and 33 seconds,is black eyed peas Rock your body,is not even high definition is 480p in other words DVD standard.

Now The only way you will get that video on 20 or 30 mb is if the video is very poor quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSD4vsh1zDA

I got a feeling black eyed peas,again is 480p not even high definition,download that one is 46 MB for 4 minutes and like 50 seconds,if you actually have the guts to admit it,you just downloaded 2 480p videos dvd standard (a 1997 format) and you just happily have 88MB of data for not even 10 minutes of music videos,and hour of youtube is 450 to 600 MB depending on the bit rate of the video,don't take my word for it download the video,again maybe you could find the version on lower bit rate,but quality would not be the same,and that will require additional data for the reach.

OH by the way video calling is a huge data hug,you know that thing that is advertise heavily by T-mobile with the mytouch 4g alone side the Unlimited data mark and with the best 3G and 4G network remark as well.

Only a T-mobile employee would defend what T-mobile does.
[Vibrant General] Cartigan:
The creation of caps is because the industry doesn't want to admit that the internet is evolving. Light users may not hit the cap - with basic internet surfing and reading emails. As speeds increase on the internet, file sizes get bigger, webpages fuller of large, high-def images and flesh - even if you just count the tons of ads - and streaming services get more prominent. The wired cable companies are going to have to accept it alot sooner (they should have already accepted it but they are fighting it tooth and nail still) than the wireless telecoms but the faster they make their networks and ADVERTISE them as faster and put out phones that are as much handheld computer as phone, the more people are ACTUALLY going to want to use them for the same stuff as their wired computers. Then the telecoms (wired and otherwise) piss and moan that people are using their advertised services and clogging their networks which they refuse to upgrade. The telecoms want props for faster services but don't want people to actually use them and want people to pay out the ear for using them.

Welcome to the 21st century, folks.
[Vibrant General] eltormo:
Do you have a link to that so call estimated info.? Did they actually say the % of high end smart phone users and separate them from the low end,that can pretty much do nothing but surf the net.?

Smart phones like the androids and iphones are new tech,that is just starting to get popular,also having an average of 15% of people using more than 5GB of data,in no way mean that T-mobile has the right to actually openly advertise Unlimited plan of data at 3g and 4g speeds,only to set hidden limitations,also it is has been demonstrated already that bandwidth usage of smart phones will just increase as more and more smart phones get sold,and more people start to actually use the features of the phones.

Now to that bold part i quoted there from your post,is the most ridiculous thing i have ever hear in my life in a public forum,you mean to tell me that i should use my phone or do things with it that you consider are more productive than showing my friend a video or me watching it my self,what the hell is wrong with you dude.

Are you T-mobile president.? Boy you most be i do with my phone what ever i want,and not you or T-mobile should not tell me what i should or not do with my time and the phone i pay for,for people like you is that companies are always doing this kind of scams,because there is always some one who just don't care for others and thinks that what he do is what the rest of the world should be doing.

My advise since you actually try to tell us to do something more productive with our time,is start using your phone,and start getting back what you are paying for,after all you are already in for 2 years with your company ,so the best thing you could do is actually give use to the things you pay for,you don't buy a house to not live on it,you don't buy a car to take the buss every day,and you don't buy food to starve to death,so why should you pay for data to hardly use it.:cool:
[Vibrant General] eltormo:
Completely agree this is the problem,they know so much about communications that they think that your average garbage phone that only surf web pages,will actually use the same amount of data as an Iphone or and Android phone,on T-mobile case they are the worst of the bunch from what i see.

They advertise VIDEO CALLING man,that thing eat up bandwidth like hell,unlimited data plans at 3g and 4g speed (in places of coverage) and put a bandwidth cap of 5GB,is like buying a Ferrari from them and they only allow you to go 5MPH,because the rest of the world has roller blades not cars.
[Vibrant General] sahil04:
Have you ever thought that we are competent enough to know not to go to non-media heavy sites while tethering? I stream pandora in my car (between 1-2 hours a day) Monday through Friday and still haven't hit the 5 GB cap this month (this along with heavy browsing, internet widgets updating, document downloading/uploading to dropbox, uploading HD pictures to dropbox and various other things.

Funny how you resort to anyone that defends sticking with the carrier that charges the least for data a T-Mobile employee, I however am not, I'm a full time student :rolleyes:

The smartphone market is obviously expanding into the regular market rapidly and just look around at the majority of people that own smartphones, they do not download roms or tether their phones (I'm talking primarily non-tech savvy users) and they still use their phones and I bet they don't use anywhere near half the data cap just using facebook.

I also want to make a quick note here, when I started responding to this thread I forgot about things such as video calling and the t-mobile tv that is including with our phones (I never use them and always uninstall them), but I do agree that if you use services offered by t-mobile such as those, it should not count towards the data cap at all.

However, when I said people do things they shouldn't be doing it was proven in the post earlier who posted the image of the torrent bandwidth. The assumption is that he/she used tethering to download all of that within a billing period. Users like that make the network congested and presumably make the speed lower for the rest of the users in that area. If data throttling prevents this at a certain time and allows me to fully utilize my data before pre-cap then I don't have an issue with it.