yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
I'm not going to get into any ranting or raving or anything on this one, but please don't bash everyone who does not agree with you in this thread or claim they don't read.

The guy had a legitimate post about tombstoning an instant messenger and I have pointed out other times where MS drops the ball on this mulit-tasking issue.

Your OP is a good post and helps clear up some things, but you have to understand that there are real concerns with the OS not allowing 3rd party multi-tasking and just flaming anyone who does not think that this is the best way for the OS to operate.
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
It wasn't bashing. I was simply pointing out that he hadn't read the whole thing, as he, like you, didn't really understand the concept of multitasking.

Anyway, I'm not going to start arguing with you again.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
WP7 definitely has the capbility of multi tasking, or you won't be playing music while using IE. MS limited the multi tasking for 3rd party apps.

Your old phone or android phone can do multitanking without any system limit. As I know it's free for Android application to create background services. However it causes significant lag and battery drain. My captivate lose 4% power per hour on standby and I cannot even locate which app is causing such battery drain.

MS learned from apple that it's more important to keep the device running smooth than to let apps mess the phone up.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Anthonok:
Who cares what you call it. People want to have a messenger or non zune music player in the background while they do other things and be able to QUICKLY respond to it. BASICALLY most people want what apple calls multitasking/fast app switching. Only certain things allowed and a proper save state when when leaving the app. It works great on the iPhone and i dont care what people say its simple and effective.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
can WP7 multitask?
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
well I think we both understand the concept of multi-tasking, just disagree with you on the wiseness of not allowing third party apps to be able to do so, someone disagreeing with you isn't the same thing as not understanding something; multi-tasking is actually a pretty easy concept to understand.

I don't want to argue with you again either, I just also don't want readers of this thread to be misinformed and to get all viewpoints regarding WP7's lack of multi-tasking support and then they can decide if they agree or not, but it doesn't mean that the subject is not understood.

I have no desire to start any beef on this thread, just keep in mind that when you start a thread you open a discussion open to disagreements, these don't mean that people don't read or don't understand necessarily. Don't be afraid to be wrong, it happens to everyone. We're all here to get the most out of our devices anyways.
[Windows Phone 7 General] lqaddict:
So, you are shazaming a song on the radio, and get a phone call or a txt - will wp7 tombstone the live radio for you too?
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
Apple add this feature not until their 4th generation system

Let's see what the mango update will give us.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
what so they will add this in the 9 generation?(if you count 6.1 and 6.5)

Wow
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
It's named WP7 but it's ACTUALLY WP1.

WM is designed to be a lite version of desktop windows with phone features

That's why it was powerful while hurting user experience:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
You should read my full post. It's explained :)

I am absolutely sure big companies will be allowed to run in the background, and it's probably just a question about time before we get MSN Messenger running properly in the background.

There are other uses, like streaming music, but as for the suggestions of running GPS software with turn by turn instructions (you shouldn't play games or do anything with your phone while driving!) and having a game active in the background without letting your character die (cool! Let's spin our wheels! We're not going anywhere, but we sure are spending gas! :D ) are plain silly...

Ok, on my list of programs that will benefit from actually running in the background, I can only think of two now, but please help me put more on the list:

* Music streaming

* Messaging
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
nothing other than Zune right now :eek:

well GPS would nice since sometimes you're the passenger and you still want turn by turn while gaming or emailing, so it needs to be supported in the mango update too.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ceesheim:
Hi fellow XDA lovers :)

I just want to remind you all that we don't want a flame war here so keep it on topic please.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Anthonok:
Yes it took them an extremely long time because apple is stubborn (or should i say Steve Jobs) and it is disappointing that Microsoft chose to pull an apple with WP7. But at least apple updated the iPhone....
[Windows Phone 7 General] krjcook:
I should probably be able to run in the background if you get a call. I can play games while on the phone, but it leaves a nasty orange block on the top of the screen to notify you that your on the phone. As far txt messaging go, yea that's a bummer. I just click the message when it comes up, respond, then click back to go to the game I was playing. Just hope that game saved your previous state.
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
orangekid: please don't carry on with your misconceptions. The whole purpose of this thread was to explain the difference between the terms you're having trouble getting the grasp of.

Windows Phone can multitask like crazy.

Windows Phone can run threads in the background. We're just not allowed to use it (yet).

My prediction is:

First MS wants to have full control over background apps, and thus won't let *anyone* else create them.

Then MS will lett hand picked OEMs make background apps, and continue to monitor

THEN MS might let the rest of use have access to the API calls.

OBTW: WP7 lets you "multitask" more than just Zune. Why do you think you can accept calls and text messages while you're doing other stuff? In addition, it lets you kind of run your app in the background. Heard of Live Tiles? Heard of toast notifications?
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
WP can't multi-task except a couple of things at the moment, although like you mention supposedly they will allow it in the future. I wouldn't call a couple of MS crap apps "like crazy" but I get where you're coming from.

If they "do not allow" people to run threads in the bg, then for all intents and purposes it can't do it till we either mod the OS to enable it or MS does.

I agree with this except I think it will be more than just hand picked OEMs at first, kind of like iOS4, the developers will have to incorporate certain things in their apps. Ever notice how smooth multi-tasking is on the iPhone 4? and it still retains awesome battery life :)

well ok so you can get a text while doing other stuff, but if you reply your "other stuff" is dead or totally reloaded. Live Tiles just pool data and update, this isn't anywhere near actually being able to use a useful app and has nothing to do with multi-tasking. The simple fact of the matter is that WP7 has the native ability to multi-task, but only a couple of things are allowed, and there is no task manager, so for any useful purpose other than Zune basically it cannot multi-task.

I just want to ensure there are no misconceptions on this.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
choice ?

it might be good to allow the user to choose:

super fluid UI, or mutlitasking. do it on each fresh boot, or restart of the window manager (whatever it is in wp7).

so you choose "multimode" and have navigation, streaming music, and phone call all going at once, along with im/texting.

you choose "smoothiemode" and have a seemless flipflop of texts and colored tiles or whatever.

I was actually thinking originally it was a Millinium Edition move by microsoft:

make it so crappy the NEXT version is a sure sale. the power (hardware) of current devices proves itself on ios and android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
Seems there's a good chance the user can select to have a phone that "just works" or being able to install non-approved apps.
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
that is a great idea, but I do not see this implemented ever. It will be one or the other OS wide I think.

I would love that, kind of like Android let's you check to install non-market apps in the app settings before installing APKs.

some of us want a phone that "just works" with some more features :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] tfouto:
hey guys... chill down...

"Further updates, either with Mango, or after, should bring twitter integration to the People Hub, and 3rd party multi-tasking support."

http://wmpoweruser.com/windows-phone-7-mango-update-will-bring-ie9-mobile/
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
i really really hope so, looks like MS is finally on the ball to get real multi-tasking in, this really going to help the end-user experience :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] The Gate Keeper:
i think probably a solution which would be ideal and not kill off the capabilities would be a way to mark which apps WE end users want to multi task, and which we don't. like when you first install the app, it WILL NOT multi task by default, but say if we press and hold on the app in the app list, below "pin to start" we should have an option like "run in background", and it would remember this (so you don't have to keep doing the run in background every time).

then a simple app switcher for the running programs and done.

this way, for everything a user wants to multi task, it will, otherwise, it will tombstone as it currently should.

that would satisfy everyone a lot more i think, rather than lettering devs/MS manage what will multitask (like Apple does), allow end users to say... YES i want this to multi task. And within the app, they should be able to detect if the option has been selected, and only SUGGEST (not force) multi tasking, and how to activiate it for the app.
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
Agreed, but there would be need for MS to post data about the resource usage if letting the users decide. For myself, I'd disable most of the background apps, but that's just preference.

However, in order to implement something like this, the apps wouldn't actually be tombstoned (it would be way too much work to implement functionality for both tombstoning and background tasks), but rather run the thread in the background anyway - and then either give it processor resources or not. For apps that don't want to run in the background, tombstoning would be the right way to handle it.

I'd rather make my programs tombstone correctly and skip on the background functionality. At least until I can "legally" access SMS, incoming calls and such (but that really wouldn't be running it in the background anyway, as it would be an eventhandler;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
And Windows Mobile Multitasks on 528 MHz processors.

What exactly is your point?

Tombstoning or Backgrounding is better than full fledged universal multitasking.

I'm thinking about moving to WP7 because it does this differently, and if Microsoft plans to multi-task like WM or Android then I'll likely just go with iOS because bad rogue apps cause way too many issues and can ruin the user experience. Also battery life > all.

I game on my XBOX 360. Don't care about those, and it's almost impossible to really multi-task on a phone from a usability standpoint. On a computer, yes. On a phone, No. For some reason people want smartphone OSes to evolve like PC OSes, but they are completely different beasts.

Yes, it's that big of a deal.
[Windows Phone 7 General] emigrating:
GPS will definitely need to go on that list. Like others have pointed out you may be a passenger in the vehicle using _your_ phone as a navigational aid to get from A to B. As a passenger you should obviously be able to play a game, write an email or browse the web should you so choose. In addition there are plenty of tracking apps out there which will show your location near-real-time on a map, I use this regularly when I'm on my way to meetings; start the app, send an email with the map Uri and I don't have to call should I be stuck in traffic.

There are lots of other apps that need some sort of background process also; not necessarily full multitasking, but a way to hook into existing OS events. Profile apps for example, the phone notices you are in your car (based on BT) and it's before working hours; send all calls directly to voicemail. This obviously needs other APIs also, but all the APIs in the world won't help this app if there is no background service.

Another example are task-/todo- managers. Sure, you can bypass the need here by use of Live Tiles and Toasts, but it would be better (as in more consistent) to have the app bring up a reminder locally - you'd get your reminder no matter what. Of course, this is functionality MS should (and likely will) bring in first-party.

IMO, they just need to open it up and allow it on a case-by-case basis. If you think your app requires multitasking, submit it with a technical exception and if allowed the customer will be asked to allow multitasking when purchasing (just like they are now asked to allow location etc - however, the app should still install should you choose "don't allow"). That way you (as a developer) are not strictly bound by "it's not a A/B/C type app, so no multitasking for you" marketplace regulations.

As for your conception that Live Tiles or Toasts let you run your app in the background; you're completely off the reservation. Live Tiles do work for some apps, but Toasts are a complete joke; by the time you've heard the notification come thru and picked up your phone the notification is lost forever.

Also, well-behaved multitasking apps will not, by default, kill your battery life. A well behaved app will do nothing unless it has to - in which case it makes little to no difference in terms of power usage if it's running in the foreground or not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] DarkRyoushii:
how about this, when saving your app, theres tickboxes in the save dialogue saying you want this app to have the ability to multitask (run in background), tombstone (save state), schedule check, or the other various types of the multitasking stereotype so then microsoft can develop the ways to effectively control this and do simply what apple has done by making multitasking native to the OS and allowing devs to control how they use those features.
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
just do it like iOS did it with backgrounder.

if you hit the home key your app dies, if you hold it for 2 seconds you go home with the app backgrounded, that way it's easy to choose, just put a task-manager link in the notification area :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] chrism583:
I fail to see why a list should be made about what apps should/shouldn't be allowed to multi-task. Do I want to have a game running in the background and die? No, I'd rather not die. What I would like is to pause the game when I hear an email come in, check the message and resume the game without going back through the menus or having to hit the "back" button repeatedly. I would also like to be able to be in the process of writing a message, quickly double-check my calendar and hop back to the message(whose state isn't saved at the moment).

It's not a point of trying to think out what the end-user will want to do it's all about allowing them to do what they want. Maybe I got too used to my BB's and being able to truely multi-task just by holding down a button and being able to see that I can move between GPS, email, homescreen, Pandora, media, etc. WP7/Apple do it all wrong in my opinion. True productivity can be seen just by pressing ALT+TAB and that's something RIM and WebOS seem to actually get. Yeah, tombstoning and "fast app switching" is great...for a feature phone; but not for a smartphone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
Uhm, what now? I said a list of what *I* think should be able to multitask. It's not a universal list. It's something inside my head, and other people can't have it ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] amtrakcn:
WebOS does well with this idea, your desktop is the app switcher:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] emigrating:
This is actually one of the scenarios where a properly coded state-saving/tombstoning app will work wonders. The developer can save the state permanently meaning you don't have to go back back back to get into it again, just launch the game again and you'll start off where you left.
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
+1

Same with GPS, unless you want to listen to it in the background while doing something else ("Oi, dad! I said turn NOW! The computer woman said so!" :p )
[Windows Phone 7 General] jason.hamilton:
I work in a tech support center. We go by the clock. I have 15 min breaks and i can only go over by 30 seconds. I set my stopwatch app on my phone for 15 mins, i get a text message and i read it. Lock the phone. Good bye alarm. My alarm wont go off because the phone cant multi task for a freaking timer. Multi tasking is needed. I dont care about games be able to multi task but basic function like that are needed.
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
json: what you're looking for isn't multitasking. It's not even running a program in the background. What you're looking for is a way to hook into events. An alarm app should be able to count a specified amount of ticks and then bring itself to the foreground and resume running.
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
what about music streaming?
[Windows Phone 7 General] tiwas:
For crying out loud! Isn't it good enough that I said music streaming should be able to run in the backgroun in an earlier post? Do I have to recap all my thoughts and feelings both related and not to this topic every time I write?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
What about an online game?
[Windows Phone 7 General] orangekid:
I wasn't even talking to you, I was referring to the dude talking about state saving, but thanks for playing...

good point, I guess they'd just freeze the game any time anyone gets a text and a big timeout icon would appear.
[Windows Phone 7 General] emigrating:
No. You're way off on this, read my earlier replies for more in-depth info on why, but in short any type of GPS tracking or navigational tool needs multitasking capabilities - i.e. it needs to continue doing whatever it is doing even if you open an email or whatever.

What about it? I was replying towards a scenario where a user paused a game to go do something else - this has nothing to do with music streaming.

And you wonder why there is no real-time multiplayer games at the moment? ;)

It's quite obvious it's not because of lacking socket support as they would have you believe.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Thanks for your overly broad definition of a "well-behaved app" and trying to give yourself room for fault with "by default." You're wrong, though.

Yes, they kill your battery life, especially when you run lots of stuff in the background. It doesn't matter whether it's well-behaved or not. Processor cycles cost (not matter how few), data access costs (especially over 3G/4G).

There are avenues by which apps can get information (like Push Notifications), but lots of apps completely ignore this and poll instead (typically at specified intervals and when you have something polling every 15 minutes it can make a dramatic impact). Some applications run in the background and farm information (though I think Microsoft will catch most of these if their app review process is worth a damn, Google doesn't, though).

A Well-Behaved IM Client not using Push Notifications, for example, will kill your battery life. This is trivial to observe on Android by comparing Trillian for Android to something like eBuddy. eBuddy demolishes your battery, even though it's a "well-behaved" application that multitasks. (Last time I tried eBuddy they didn't support C2DM, if they do now then good for them, but I don't think they do).

Microsoft is right. There aren't many apps that absolutely need to multi-task.

GPS applications don't need to Multi-Task, as long as the GPS is turned on and the application saves the Source/Destination data when it tombstones, all it will have to do when it pops back up is reroute, which my Samsung Vibrant does in < 5 seconds with a crappy GPS, so a WP7 phone should not have any issues with that. That is pennies.

Task Apps do not need to Multi-Task, and most of these apps are pretty rubbish and/or redundant, anyways. Microsoft does need to implement Exchange Task Support and improve Hotmail Tasks (and Implement Support for them), though. That will eliminate that.

I don't think Media Players should Multi-Task. If you want a third party media player, fine. But the Stock apps are quite capable. Same for the Browser, though with the state of IE mobile that is a little harder for me to defend.

I actually think Apple's "Duplicate Functionality Clause" saves them a lot of headaches because they don't have to worry about people complaining that their iPod App Rip-Off isn't playing in the background. Sometimes you have to take into account deeper aspects of the software functionality before you make a decision on which device you buy.

You can always go Symbian, Android, WebOS, Windows Mobile, or Blackberry if you want to multi-task your redundant applications. There are no shortage of options for that, and every option comes with both benefits and concessions (but I like how WP7 looks!... Well, apparently you like how Blackberry OS multitasks, right?!).

While I'm on Blackberry OS. It multi-tasks well, but if you look a bit deeper tons of stuff go through RIM's push servers, so most of the BB apps worth installing never really poll for data, it's all pushed, so the need to have them constantly running in the background is pretty much nil.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
If the game goes through XBL then it should be able to keep your connection. Running any type of game in the background is foolish. The connection, however, needs to stay alive.

The nature of multiplayer gaming on a phone means that the scenarios where you need to actually multi-task a multi-player game aren't really all that common, IMO.

It's not like you're running a Quest in WoW and need to minimize it to look over a walkthrough.

Excuse me for saying that I don't see the benefit of one player being able to completely pause the game for everyone else in it with no consequences anytime he chooses.
[Windows Phone 7 General] boah78:
and how is that alarm app going to count those ticks if at least a part of it isn't still running? I get what you're saying, as I'm sure most everybody disagreeing with you does, but sometimes the simplest and, dare I say it, most energy efficient way to accomplish something is to just let the app do it itself in the background. Something has to keep track of, in this case, the time... why shouldn't it be a couple lines of code from the app itself?