yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Fascinate General] J Shed:
Basically, that's the hope at least. If there are changes in say, 2.4 that require something that couldn't be hacked around with ASOP, we'll be stuck waiting for Samsung. But with a working ASOP, the groundwork is laid for updates to be ported over a bit more quickly by the devs.

Regardless of the future of this device, the Fascinate is one of the better Android handsets on the market. The screen is brilliant, it's the perfect size, and it's damn fast. The only thing that drags it down is the factory setup (although I personally think it's idiotic to ding the phone because of the inclusion of Bing like some people/reviewers have.)
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
I'm trying to understand what is going on instead of being one of the millions to ask about updates for this phone. I see phones like the droid series and read that they basically are being supported forever and then I see the Samsung Fascinate, and while I understand that the code is crappy/not released to community... I'm trying to figure out what needs to happen for it to be a supported device like the droids have been.

Bottom line, nothing at all is going to happen unless Samsung releases more than just a 2.2 update? If I see 2.2 drop like tomorrow, does that mean anything for a future, or is it just 2.2 update and we will just get devs releasing their versions of 2.2 roms?
[Fascinate General] J Shed:
I read his questions as:

"Will a working ASOP build mean better developer support/faster developer released updates?"

I did skim them though. :)
[Fascinate General] J Shed:
This is a good point. There's an LTE Samsung handset coming out soon, so it might be worth holding out for a little.

Although the Fascinate is no slouch.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
Pretty much what I am asking. Like of everything that could possibly happen, Samsung releasing 2.2, AOSP being finished, blah blah what is the key that a consumer should look for to say...

"Well, now the Fascinate has no negatives to it and I have no fear that in a year, we won't still be stuck on 2.1 or 2.2 because Samsung screwed us."

Doesn't necessarily seem like Samsung needs to do MUCH to future this phones life and turn over the keys to the devs (like HTC seemingly has done), but I'm trying to understand what that thing is they need to do. Release a newer kernel, RIL, 2.2 ROM, some code that magically allows devs to port over future roms eternally...

I don't think I care if the phone has LTE capability. I won't get LTE and a regular 3G phone is beyond enough for me. LTE is zero impact for me.
[Fascinate General] J Shed:
What does SAMSUNG need to do? Release their source code, and not just incomplete parts of it.

Will that happen? I doubt it, but it might. Clearly the companies ears are perking up with all the yelling by the consumers.

What can we do in the meantime? Support the devs and wait for them to crank out a working ASOP build and Froyo.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
Yes, would be nice to have a fully working AOSP build, and then Froyo... but they are seperate from each other right?

AOSP build is being done for 2.1? It can't just be magically updated to 2.2 can it? Does Froyo have to be officially released for them to update it to AOSP 2.2?

Basically... AOSP will only be updated to whatever version Samsung has released?
[Fascinate General] J Shed:
No. Android Open Source Project means "Android" in general. It can be 2.1, 1.6, 2.3, whatever. The devs elected to start with 2.1.

If you've followed anything in the dev folders, clearly not. JT's "Vanilla" Froyo looks like an AOSP build.

No. At least not our version.
[Fascinate General] ChrisDDD:
It's hard to answer your question because AOSP and Froyo refer to two completely different things, which can be the same or separate.

AOSP is basically Android, built from clean, unmodified source code directly from Google, without any changes by carriers or manufacturer.

Froyo is simply the 2.2 version of Android.

So, you can have Froyo that's modified by a carrier and/or manufacturer. This wouldn't be AOSP. And you can have Froyo, built directly from Google code. This would be AOSP. You can also have Eclair (Android 2.1), or any other version of Android that's AOSP or not AOSP depending on whether it was built directly from Google code, or modified by a carrier or manufacturer.

AOSP doesn't refer to a single, particular version of Android, but the state of the code that was used to compile whatever version you want to talk about.

A lot of the issue surrounds the kernel. When Google releases a new version of Android, it runs on a particular version of the kernel, which supports it's particular features. Manufacturers have to modify the kernel to support their particular hardware. So, since Samsung has only released source code for the kernel for Android 2.1, we're stuck on 2.1.

The versions of 2.2 from Kaos and JT are running on the Android 2.1 kernel that's been hacked to enable 2.2 to boot and run correctly. It works, but it's far, far from ideal. It doubles (if not more) the amount of work necessary to get 2.2 running, which is the reason for the rather slow pace of development.

So for your question, once Samsung releases 2.2 (the system and kernel), it'll be much easier to get an AOSP build of Android running, since the devs will only need to worry about the system instead of hacking together a kernel and RIL (radio interface layer) as well.

At least this is my understanding of the situation. I'm sure people with more knowledge and experience can correct me where I'm wrong, but I think this is the basic gist of it.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
Okay, thank you for this answer... this makes sense to me.

So, have HTC and Motorola released newer kernels for the devs of roms like Cyanogemod to update their ROMs, despite HTC and Motorola not actually releasing newer versions? I mean, how is the G1 updated as far as it has. Did HTC release a 2.2 kernel to allow devs to put 2.2 on it?
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
That's were I'm start confused as well.

I understand that Samsung has some proprietary kernel level code and drivers.

But, I'm curious what is the difference between Linux kernel versions used for different versions of Android. It doesn't sound like major version change and hence should not change anything dramatically. It should be mostly bug fixes. That's why jt was able to get kernel work.

As in relation to ASOP for SF, I see it like attempt to adapt Samsung code to current android interfaces. Once again, these interfaces should not change dramatically between versions, because these are evolutionary. So, I assume when done it is pretty much paved road up to 3.0 at least. That said some new features might not work at all, because we do not have working initial binaries from Samsung.

By the way mrbirdman has GB in progress.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
Alright... so this may sound like I'm oversimplifying it, but I don't mean to.

Why can't the dev community just create a "custom" kernel to work with their versions of 2.2, 2.3 and so on? You say that they are working to hack the 2.1 kernel Samsung has released so it allows 2.2 to run on the Fascinate... but why can't they just make a 2.2 kernel? Is that sorta what Cyanogenmod is doing to get a 2.2 Froyo build to work on a G1?

Based on the amazing things I've seen the dev community do, building ROMs from scratch, I guess I don't understand how the kernel can't be built specifically for each new version... forgetting about what Samsung releases.
[Fascinate General] ChrisDDD:
Theoretically they could, it would just be a lot of work. Hardware drivers might not be compatible with the kernel version designed for 2.2 or 2.3. I don't think manufacturers are required to release the code for their drivers, so if a driver wouldn't work, one would need to be written from scratch, and without the detailed knowledge of the hardware itself, that is very difficult.

Hardware support is very integral to the kernel, so a kernel for one phone wouldn't run at all on another. So in addition to the difficulty of putting together a totally independent kernel, it would need to be done separately for each and every phone out there, and how many versions of the Galaxy S alone are there? How many HTC phones, how many Motorola and LG and Sony and so on.

It's just not realistic for people doing this, essentially, in their spare time.

So, what the devs generally do is wait until a carrier releases a version of Android (System, kernel, radio, etc.), and with all the hardware support in place and working, they can focus on building custom or AOSP versions of the system.

It's not that they couldn't build their own kernel, it's just a matter of practicality, audience and the shelf live of the particular phone. As it is, a new generation of phones are already either coming out or on the near horizon... and our phone is what, 4 to 5 months old?

The misunderstanding is in the complexity of compiling a custom system, and developing a custom kernel. They are hugely different in terms of complexity.

Think of a ROM as taking Windows 3.1 and simply tweaking the components that are installed by default - what accessories are installed, what wallpaper is selected, the color scheme of the windows. Not terribly complicated.

Think of the kernel as having to compile DOS, complete with custom drivers for all the hardware - CPU, graphics, memory, storage, multitouch, sound, radio, modem, WiFi, networking, power management, USB support, file system support, etc. all by hand.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
They can! Loot at the number of kernels laying around!

Kernel doesn't know anything about device. It is very generic. Memory, process management, security etc. To work with hardware it needs proprietary drivers. I'm not 100% sure, but I guess in Linux is pretty monolithic system which require compilation. So, if driver is linked to particular version it possibly might work with this version only. I do not remember that C/C++ have some sort of build-in versioning, but it might be simply hardcoded at the points where modules need to be loaded, or something like this. But as always there are workarounds.

All this things that people do with kernels here leave me curious up to how system stability is insured. Everyone is free to change code, even whole parts and compile his own version. No wonder that later something doesn't work as expected.

I can understand developer who knows what he does and has his own sources, but it is definitely not for regular user.

Sorry, I went off topic a little bit.
[Fascinate General] ChrisDDD:
But they started with a full, complete, working kernel. All these custom kernels are basically just the existing, stock kernel with some settings tweaked or twiddled with, AND they had the source code to it all.

Compiling a NEW and DIFFERENT version of the kernel with NO source code and only drivers designed for a previous version is totally different.

To again use the DOS analogy, think of the many 2.6.29 kernels we have as taking an existing install of DOS, tweaking the config.sys and autoexec.bat file, and making an image of the install.

To build a new kernel, as I said, you're creating DOS from scratch, along with all the hardware and driver support to go with it.

It's like the difference between painting an existing car and building a car from scratch. I don't know how else to convey the difference.

Look, if it was as easy as you suggest, the devs would be doing it. It's not.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
I'm talking about custom Linux kernel. What is new about compiling kernel with different settings or even drivers? Are talking about same thing here?

What I do not understand is why are you saying that they do not have Linux source code. Ain't Linux freely available? What is this then?
[Fascinate General] AlexDeGruven:
The kernel itself doesn't know about the devices (unless the code has been integrated into the source tree already), but the opposite is not true. Device drivers are compiled against a kernel version, and generally will only work with that version (with plenty of exceptions).

As a general rule, a device driver that was compiled against a 2.6.18 kernel will have trouble loading properly with a 2.6.35 kernel version.

Calls change, memory locations change, api hooks change, etc.

If a device driver's code is looking at a specific feature of a kernel and it's not there, it won't load properly.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
So can someone, relatively easily, explain how a ROM (like a Cyanogenmod, for example) is able to get a Froyo running on something like a G1?

Are they hacking the guts out of an old kernel so that it works with the ROM and the devices drivers?
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
That's is exactly what I wrote before. I guess my point was that changes in minor version number, should not preset any problem unless something absolutely important is not supported anymore.

Point of initial question in my understanding was, how I read it - why we have problems with kernel if kernels used by Eclair and Froyo have to be pretty much the same? And is it possible to customize Eclair kernel to be used with Froyo?
[Fascinate General] ivorycruncher:
Wow, there is a lot of confusion going on in this thread. To address the OP, in response the question of what's the hangup, my response is that there isn't any one major roadblock at this point. The major roadblock was the RIL, because the source code Samsung released for it was garbage, and I think the other source may have been messed up too, full of bugs. That's why it's taken so long to get where we are now.

At this exact point in time, due to the work of birdman, jt1134, and punk.kaos, we have alpha builds of an AOSP 2.2 ROM and a CyanogenMod-based 2.2 ROM in the works. The kernel being used is a modified Eclair kernel (2.6.29), since we have no source for an actual Froyo kernel yet. The challenges right now are primarily hardware compatibility issues, since as it's been stated, device driver code doesn't necessarily work with Froyo the same way as Eclair, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the buggy source code plays into that as well. Oh, and jt and kaos pulled off a miracle by being able to reverse engineer the bad code into a working RIL, so that should also no longer be an issue, except for maybe some small remaining bugs.

So again, there is really no hangup, pursae, and we are not really waiting for anything at this point, as the devs are charging ahead with their ROMs. Kaos is killing bugs and enabling more hardware left and right, and will probably have another release soon with fully working wifi and GPS, and the camera is on his radar too. Once all the hardware is at least sort of working, it will probably graduate to beta status, and be acceptable as a daily driver for many. It's true that having these ROMs may very well help accelerate the development of additional ROMs, but there's nothing we can do to speed up the process at this point, other than give the devs the time they need to do their thing. It's possible that an official Froyo release from Samsung may help somewhat, assuming the source code they release with it is good, but even if it never comes out (which it will, I'm sure), it's looking like they're managing okay without it.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
Again, that you everyone for these answers. I'm beginning to understand what is going on a lot better. Silly question though... If we are basically sure that Samsung will release 2.2, why is JT and other devs spending so much time and hard work on 2.2 roms? It sounds like the Fascinate probably wi be on it's own after 2.2 is released... So why wouldn't they be working harder and spendin all their time on 2.3.

I mean once 2.2 is released, won't shootin out roms for I be easier? If they are going to work as hard as they are, why not do it for a version we are pretty confident won't be officially released?
[Fascinate General] AlexDeGruven:
There is no guarantee of when we will get 2.2 from Samsung/Verizon, which us why it's a worthwhile effort.

Also, the 2.2 we get from the devs will be much cleaner with a lot less crapware that amounts to ransomeware in many cases.
[Fascinate General] ChrisDDD:
Because when Samsung/Verizon finally release 2.2, it'll be the same bloated POS we have now with 2.1, so there will still be an interest in Cyanogen and AOSP roms.

Not sure, it could be that it's just that much more complicated, because they'd then be working 2 full releases advanced of a base kernel for which source code and drivers exist.

There is a dev working on 2.3, but I'm sure it's a lot of work. And again, you have to realize people are doing this in their spare time, after work/school/life.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
So... Taking for a fact that 2.2 will come out at some point, what are the odds that they figure out a 2.3?

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but THE only knock I've seen on this phone is updates... And it sounds like we will definitely get a 2.2 and then a 2.3 at least from the devs?

If updates are my concern, what stops me from upgrading right now? It sounds like the fascinate will get 2.2 and as good a chance as any to get 2.3, right?
[Fascinate General] ChrisDDD:
The phone will get 2.2 officially, no doubt, but I'd think it would be foolish to ever expect it to get 2.3 officially. It might get 2.3 from the devs, but who knows if that'll be a true 2.3 (rom + whatever version of the kernel 2.3 is supposed to run on) or 2.3 on a hacked 2.6.29 or 2.6.35 kernel. And there's only 1 developer that I'm aware of working on 2.3, so if his interest turns to a different phone, so will his development efforts.

If you're trying to decide whether or not to buy the phone, just ask yourself if you'd be happy for the life of the 2 year contract on Android 2.2 with the *chance* of getting an unofficial 2.3. If you would be, then buy it. If not, wait for another phone, or buy the Nexus S which gets it's updates directly from Google.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
I'm a Verizon guy, so unfortunately the Nexus S is not an option.

That "chance" that you speak of is what I'm trying to understand. I'd be very happy with an official 2.2 and a very good chance of a 2.3 But If I know going in that 2.3 is like less than 50/50, then i don't know. I mean, by the end of the year, with just 2.2, we'd already be 2 versions behind and I'd still have over 1 year on my contract.

Won't more devs turn to 2.3 once 2.2 is out?
[Fascinate General] ChrisDDD:
Same here, unfortunately.

By the time 2.2 does come out, so will the next generation of phones, and they'll have all kinds of new capabilities like dual core cpu's, 4G support, no doubt more memory, possibly things like NFC chips, etc.

The fascinate is but one of literally dozens of Android phones, and dozens more will be coming out in the near future. The issue of developer support is one of how long will an independent developer be interested in this particular phone. The reality for ANY phone is - not really all that long.

If you will not be happy if the phone never sees 2.3, then you're best bet would be to play it safe and hold off for a phone that the manufacturer/carrier states will be upgraded.

As far as odds go, there's exactly 1 developer working on 2.3, what do you think the odds are? He's not going to guarantee he'll get 2.3 totally working, and no one else will guarantee that either. You're asking for concrete answers to questions that don't have concrete answers.

This is perhaps why the developers can be a little hostile to these types of questions - they're not being paid to do this, the odds are stacked against their success and it's a race of time getting something working before new releases make their work irrelevant. How much effort was put into DI01 roms, only to have DJ05 come out and not be compatible, only to itself be replaced by DL09 a matter of a week or two later.

And to top it all off, you have people asking for exact dates or exact odds when or if they'll get version X.X working, and what's taking them so long, and shouldn't it be easy to do, and so on. It comes across as demanding and ungrateful.

I bought the phone. Sure, I'd like to have seen it get 2.2 by now, but it hasn't. Thanks to the devs, I have a 2.1 rom that's incalculably better than stock. If they get 2.2 or 2.3 working, great, if not, I'll completely understand. At the end of the day, it's futile to chase the next version, because there will always be another version after that one.
[Fascinate General] ivorycruncher:
The Fascinate will get Froyo from Samsung/Verizon. Whether or not it will get Gingerbread officially is anybody's guess, but I'm willing to bet not. I don't believe any Android phone has ever gotten more than one official OS upgrade before it reaches EOL, except for the official Google phones like the Nexus One, so don't count on it. However, if you don't mind getting your updates fro XDA devs, then I think it's all but guaranteed that you will see Gingerbread on this phone.

Posted from my DL09 SuperClean Fascinate with Voodoo
[Fascinate General] Eddog4DROID:
This thread had been extremely helpful and informative. I hope no one else complains about the OP. Much better than Where is Froyo???

Sent from my Fascinate: Super Clean, DL09 with Voodoo
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
Its that will this phone see 2.3 that I think a lot of users are questioning deep down inside. As much complaining as everyone is doing and as many articles that are being written, 2.2 is definitely coming.

If I were to upgrade tomorrow and 2.2 came out in a month... that would mean I'd be stuck with 2.2 for almost two years before I could upgrade. My concern is all these new apps that seem to come out that aren't supported on prior versions of Android.

I'm 100% certain that as the phone sits with 2.2, I'd be extraordinarily happy with it. My concern is all those apps that come out that won't be compatible with 2.2. Like, Google Voice Actions has been for example.
[Fascinate General] ChrisDDD:
And you'll be in precisely the same situation if you hold out for a phone with 2.3 - you'll buy the phone with 2.3, a few months later, it'll get 2.4 with no guarantees it'll ever get 2.5 or 3.0. These versions will come out, and some apps won't be supported on 2.4 or less, and you'll be stuck for the remainder of your two year contract with a phone that won't be supported by a relatively small number of apps.

As was said, virtually no Android phone has officially received more than 1 version upgrade (beside the Google Nexus branded phones), and that's why I said chasing a certain version is futile.

You can choose look at it two ways: 1 as a negative - that your phone will be left behind before the end of your contract, or 2 as a positive - that technology marches on at such a blistering pace that, by the end of your two year contract, the phones you'll be choosing from will be THAT much more advanced with THAT much greater capabilities.

1 is just the reality of the situation - your phone WILL be left behind before your contract is up, like it or not. So you might choose 2 and see it as a positive.
[Fascinate General] Bwangster12:
The way I was thinking about it though is that I sorta view 2.2 as the standard right now and if the Fascinate gets it's one update, then it would just be updated to the standard right now. If I waited, for whatever, then I'd conceivably get a phone with 2.2 or 2.3 (doubt it) and then my one update would put me to the newest or close to newest OS available.

I understand everyone in this forum has a Fascinate, and I really want to get it, but the fact that it feels that the Fascinate is like chasing the pack scares me.

I think the Fascinate as it stands now is perfect for me. The only thing that I wish it had is the full Google Voice Actions so I could send texts and emails via voice. I know I can do this with Vlingo, but it would be nice to have integrated.