yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Translation:

All those who attacked the devs and coined them faildev.team are all of a sudden changing their tune now that they are speaking out about their projects, and OEM support has been so crappy.

Sad that people act like this.
[Fascinate General] FDro:
I dont undestand why anyone would attack the developers. They aren't obligated to do anything, what they do is out of their own will and desire to better the device. If people have a problem with the phone then blame the manufacturer, not the people picking up after their mess.
[Fascinate General] RacerXFD:
Thanks for the translation...
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
People demand instant gratification, and when they do not get it, they get ugly because they think for some reason, they are owed everything. Then there is the jealousy factor. Then there are those who think the devs withhold stuff from the community.

Then there are those who just attack me because they can.

The android community is young, and due to it being user friendly, it attracts young folks. Some just happen to be very immature. It *should* get better with time.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
All this cool and dandy...

However developers also have some room to improve situation on the forums.

As adrynalyne pointed here there is a lot of childish behavior here. But developers, being leaders of community, not always behave as such.

I understand all sorts of emotions etc. I personally fall victim of them... Sorry if I hurted somebodys feelings.

But, I cannot stand some sort of elitism growing here.

Devs, please do not threat rest of the crowd as a bunch of morons! It will reflect positively on you as well.

If you have time to read all crappy posts on the forums and post aggravated responses, why do not spend this time typing meaningful response, holding grain of knowledge? If not, just stay calm and do not feed flame.

I do not want to repeat myself again and again. Just want to see some professionalism and respect in forums. It's not going to help moving to IRC, twitter or whatever. Root cause must be resolved.

Personally I was really impressed, more by anything else, of adrynalyne responding to that guy posted leak on other forums. Seriously! It was so different from how I percept him at forum. Like completely different person.

Respect!
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
While moving to irc may be unfortunate for some...it provides real time interaction for development. That simply is not possible on a forum. I work with a lot of people, and can fix problems 90% faster in real time.
[Fascinate General] DarthCivicus:
I totally agree, the devs have my support in anything that they do, in whatever time frame they can make happen. Still better then the OEM time frame for an "update".
[Fascinate General] nitsuj17:
i hope the poster(s) who jumped all over the devs awhile back (i forget who) arent using anything that they have done recently and will avoid froyo/gb unless it comes from verizon/samsung
[Fascinate General] orion421:
agreed

10char
[Fascinate General] phooky:
No one is at 'fault' here. Your sense of entitlement is astounding; you are not owed anything. This OP was directed at people like you.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Did I ever said that I'm owed? My grief is about this particular community in general. And because we all members, we all equally responsible for a atmosphere here. Or you think that bashing somebody here helps a lot?

And you know what? OP is right at the moment, I'll stay away from any custom roms or mods or whatever. At least for now. Because to be "cool" is not only thing in my life anymore. I outgrown it long time ago.

My crave for update is stemming not from desire to have highest score in quadrant, but from wish to have stable, usable and secure platform, from which IMHO any current phone is far away.

Out of the box SF is fairly usable, thought not ideal. Having Froyo and GB, means that I can get all bug fixes, improvements and new features such as native code extensions for applications and games, enterprise stuff etc.

Using rooted phone might be OK for me, but definitely not for my wife or children. So, manufacturer support is still important. Unfortunately my believe in Samsung faded out very quickly. And that essentially raised importance of independent developers proportionally. I do not see anything wrong with it.
[Fascinate General] woolster22:
this guy does not seem to be in the entitlement crowd. He even states that english is a second language and to cut him some slack. I think what he was trying to say is that he was disappointed that samsung kept getting everybodies hopes up, which may have pushed devs off of working on getting things rolling for this device (why wouldn't they wait when they are being told froyo is on the way? From what I understand it would be easier to rip through that and make changes than to pull it off a different phone and sort of start from scratch). This doesn't sound too "tinfoil hat" to me, and certaintly doesn;t come off as entitled. More like he was pointing out one possible contributing factor as to why there has been a lot of waiting around (not complaining here guys, statement of fact. Did/do appreciate all the nonfroyo/gb roms and fixes that have been pushed out for us) for word of froyo. Now that Kaos/JT/Birdman have gotten some Froyo alpha's posted up, I am getting the feeling that the floodgates are about to open.
[Fascinate General] Mean Sixteen:
2 cents

I am not a developer.

My phone was decent out of the box.

Thanks to all the developers hard work, that i don't yet have the ability to do, my phone has gone from decent to fantastic.

The best part is that they aren't done yet

The future is exciting and if i ever think i am entitled to anything from someone elses work then, please, someone on here ***** slap me.

To all developers on here....you have my respect and gratitude. You have improved my life and saved my ass more than once. (Or twice)

Please keep doing your thing. And when i learn how to help i will.

Sent from my fascinate through xda app.
[Fascinate General] RacerXFD:
Well, the goal isn't to instill hostility, but to bring awareness to be thankful.

I can see what CNemo means because he doesn't understand what's going on. I can assure you that there is no intended elitism going on. Most of the roms tested in irc are shared here as soon as they are determined to be stable enough for testing.

It may seem like there is no transparency, but actually if you care, there is... The source codes are public. You can see what the devs are doing on github.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Yeah I've tried the whole, "Im just gonna throw it out there on the forums" thing. It does not work well, and you end up ticking people off when things stop working. Always best for the IRC crowd to muddle through the stuff first.
[Fascinate General] leehblanc:
I agree and disagree. I disagree because it's nice to have this stuff in the forums where more people can try it. On the other hand, no matter how many warnings you give, there are going to be those who AREN'T comfortable with ADB, etc and go ahead and do it anyway... then we as a community lose valuable time while you fix everyone's fubar. It's frustrating to me, I can only imagine being on the other side. As far as Devs go, I don't envy them... It's the utimate "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

Aside from donations and thanks, the other way to support the Dev community is to PAY for apps. I have quite a few paid apps on my phone. The only caveat to that is when I'm looking at an app and I'm unsure if I want/need it. From time to time I'll grab it from ********* and give it a 5min test spin. If it works, I uninstall and grab it from the Market. If it doesn't, I just uninstall. I know (for the most part) that we're talking about two separate types of devs, but the point is the same... if you're using someone's work... support them!

In response to the post above, I think I get what he was saying... I've done some programming (old school, mostly... BASIC, MS Acess) and while that doesn't really apply to Android at ALL, there may be some of us that have ideas that could help. In the end, a variable is a variable is a variable. I've thrown questions and ideas out only to be ignored. I don't take it personally, but even a "no, dip****... it doesn't work like that" would be appreaciated :D
[Fascinate General] RacerXFD:
No seriously, the guys in IRC will flash anything thrown at them... Some of them will end up with serious issues that were found to be seriously flawed.

Here's an example. VooDoo 5. When it first started rolling around in IRC from jt, it was considered unstable. It did not have the tools required for the average user to repair their phone. Adrynalyne preemptively produced the DI01 all in one ROM to repair everything from the radio, the kernel, the MBR, the recovery even... Did Adrynalyne have to do that? No, he did it because he knew that kinds of issues that would arrive when VooDoo 5 was introduced. Then VooDoo 5 was released.

Compared to VooDoo 4, the amount of incidents are exponentially less because of Adrynalyne putting a fix out there.

Also with phone repairs, it's much easier to help someone fix something in real time than it is to wait on them to try something, post, wait for response, in that sequence than it is to discuss the repair live in a chatroom.

BTW, this is in no offense to anyone. This is to clarify why some of the people are perceived as elitists. It's not that the IRC crowd are elitists, it's that they're more up to date with the latest development because they're busy flashing and screwing up their phones first so that you don't have to. On the same token, if you want to learn/test latest development, hop on IRC and ask any of the guys in #Samsung-Fascinate for help. It's very friendly in there contrary to what you would think (as long as you're not wozzy/sherwood1).
[Fascinate General] durakbane:
As someone who doesn't know squat about development (programming is like a self inflicted migraine to me), I feel that:

1.

You are solely responsible for your actions.

It is the user's responsibility and their's alone to become educated (or at least accept the risks/repercussions) before messing with their phone. Do you go under your kitchen sink and start drinking whatever is there? I'd hope not...at the very least you should read the label and prepare to call 911.

2.

The developers don't owe anyone anything.

Actually, for the most part, it is the opposite (we owe them.) Unless someone is malicious in their intent, no one screwed up your phone other than you. No one forced you to down a gallon of liquid plummer (sticking to my analogy)...don't sue the company (in this case the developers) for your failure to properly weigh the risks. Sure ask them for help, but be aware.....

3.

You aren't paying for developer customer service.

Some of the greatest products have the worst customer service...doesn't stop people from using the product. Well, if a developer is crude, rude, or nasty..keep in mind they aren't getting paid. From what I've seen, if you are respectful and remain that way, someone will help you. Also, I've noticed that when a dev is being snide, there is usually some history involved either with an individual or the topic. Keep in mind, you get what you pay for. Don't like their answer..ignore them. I understand that it may be a simple question and deserves a simple answer. I also understand that if the answer only requires a little research on your part, people might get a little snippy. Which leads me to the last part of my 'novel'...

4.

Do a little research.

From my experience, the devs/experts/elites do not expect you to be just like them, but they do expect you to be educated on some of the basics..like getting adb installed, knowing how to get into recover mode (once rooted), and etc. There all kinds of faqs on the internet on how to do some of the basics. Also IRC is a great tool to see what's going on and to also learn a few things. Tons of problems are solved there everyday.

In summary, be responsible, be respectful, ignore the crappy comments, and read the label before you suck down the liquids under your sink.

Thank you and have a good day!
[Fascinate General] orion421:
durkbane, well written sir.
[Fascinate General] leehblanc:
Totally agree. The things you hear about IRC make it sound like going in there is the equivalent of an 18-year old girl walking into some backwoods biker bar in a bikini thong... you're just asking for trouble.

In reality, even the questions that a 5 second Google search could answer are answered, as long as you're nice about asking. I like to hang and handle the easy ones, as I'm sure the regulars get REALLY tired of questions like "Where can I find DL09"
[Fascinate General] dricacho:
Sorry for my ignorance, I don't spend all my time in any forums all day long. Did such attacks happen in the forum?? I haven't seen anything but then again, as I said before, I don't spend too much time in here. I just come in, get the info I want, maybe ask a question or two, and then move on.
[Fascinate General] Lodingi:
I also would like to know what the op is talking about. I've never read any negative comments towards the devs in this forum.
[Fascinate General] RacerXFD:
It was a while back. Back in late oct/nov time frame. Most of the tension has chilled out in here.
[Fascinate General] phatspirit2:
If anyone is truly thankful, do it by giving them a few of your change. That by itself speaks volume. :)
[Fascinate General] Lodingi:
So why stir up ****?
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Because it never really stopped. The same idiots still lurk and pop up here and there.
[Fascinate General] dricacho:
In some forums that I go to, the moderator has very little tolerance to those types of people and they are given a last warning. Disregard for such results in a ban. If that offender comes back and stirs up more trouble, then a permaban is enforced. For the sake of progress, I think such trouble makers should be given very little leniency and a prompt ban if they continue down their disruptive behavior. Dev or user, there's no excuse for disruptive behavior.
[Fascinate General] xlinth:
Do what i do... ,sit back and be patient....if anybody wants to ***** then take it to verizon and samsung. Let us let the devs do what they do best, develope. Many a times have i seen devs stop working on something because uneducated people rant towards them. I am new to fascinate but i have been in the android community since day one. Last and definately not least...punk.kaos and the rest of the team working on froyo and gb...,you are my heros.

Thank you all that help us make our phone better...,and that includes all who are testing and providing feed back to the devs...soon we will have froyo and gb and it prove to all that our devs are better than the devs at samsung and verizon....so consider donating to them so they and their familys can live better.
[Fascinate General] uslacson1:
Thanks to the IRC crowd for risking messing their SF's to let lurkers, noobs, non devs get more stable releases.

All your efforts are definitely appreciated.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
I think I understand pretty well whats going on.

Well, may be elitism is wrong word here...

What I'm trying to explain is that cost of entry into the development field might be quite high from regular guy from the street. If one is not one the linux and platform already it might take quite a lot of effort even just to try something. What is somebody tried it already and found inapplicable? Then idea is plain throwout... Then all efforts are in vain. Personally I cannot afford it...

So, asking dumb sounding questions is the way to quickly figure out if I even need to try. Yes, I can read c++ code from git, but it's not going to help because I do not know a thing about kernel. I simply do not have whole picture... What I can to do is look at the list of thing what was tried/rejected/accepted and suggest some ideas and suggestions. It might sound strange at first, because I just said I do not know a thing, but despite of this there are huge similarities in soft development of different kinds, so plain experience/years in the field does matter.

What I often see here is response in the style - "Try to do it yourself first and then ask the question if fail". I imply it as "We are cool! We ahead of you! We did what we can already!" Unfortunately it doesn't give me any useful information. I know that you are cooler than me, otherwise I wouldn't ask the question, because I might figure it myself with Google. NO OFFENSE HERE! Please, just follow my thinking.

That not how the real leader answers. That's not going to set good mood and respect in the forums.

I also understand the motivations behind different types of communications. Forum vs. IRC at. That's cool. But look, if people still continue ask questions here on forum, that means somebody still needs it this way! Because it is old as the world and is proven.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
I see you point.

Do not think that I request something from you personally or anybody else, just a wish to improve communication. May I suggest to create a sticky in the devs forum where devs may post on an overall progress?

Something like:

01.11.11. We tried to compile sammys code and it doesn't work because of some sort of problems with RIL. That damn thing is different from what GSM versions have so we cannot port it from there. It also appears that something changed in android itself, like it is mix between 1.6 and 2.0.

01.12.11. Attempted to write RIL from scratch, but interface is pretty complex and we do not have enough documentation on chipset to fully implement it. We cannot proceed with Froyo without RIL.

01.13.11. Wrapped existing RIL to provide logging of existing calls.Wrapper loads undelying RIL and is able to initialize it. The number of calls and possible results from is finite, so once if we know all of them we might come up with translation layer.

01.14.11. Collected enough stats to understand whats going on. Looks like some calls work exactly as expected so we can simply delegate these calls to underlying Samsung RIL. Others will need translation. Work is moving way slower, because async calls are difficult to debug.

01.15.11. Created Wi-fi call translations. We have enough new functionality to start user testing. People who can test? We need to test this and this...

Update: PunkKaos SF passed away and we need another one to continue our efforts. Please donate <here>.

As you see it's not much longer that your tweets (though some more insights and tech details will be appreciated), but I guess it is way more digestible by general public than anything else.

I'm pretty much positive that it will cut the number of stupid useless threads significantly.

Am I asking to much, people?
[Fascinate General] ivorycruncher:
Im as curious about what's going on as much as anyone, but I think that working on fixing code is a.much more important use of the dev's time than posting constant status updates. It's not like we're their project managers and are requiring status updates to prove that they're still doing their job. They do this because they want to, and it's up to them whether or not they want to provide regular status updates. Kaos has graciously done so via Twitter, which should be enough.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Very often the context directing people to IRC sound like "U r a moran if u cannot setup IRC and read from there. Go f**k uself". And it is well... Offensive and unexceptable!

And then you go there and you see chat between people, not necessarily technical. From my brief observation mostly non technical. And yes, you still have to ask same question. And yes, same people have to answers same answer. But, hey! Now, you part of the club! :-)
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
I would agree only if I didn't see so much MORE text typed by devs here in forums everyday. Even sum of responses "Stop asking about where is Froyo/GB" is longer than I've outlined here. :-)

Kaos does good! It feels good! Why do not embrace if it is so good?

Project manager! :-) You gotta be kidding me! If you only know what kind of crap my project manager collects!

But, you know what - somehow it moves faster with good project manager :-)

And when I think about it, I usually come to conclusion that its not PM per se, but because some even minimal thinking about what was done and what I'm going to do next, makes me more efficient. And it makes other people, who works with me, more efficient, thought may be by other reasons.
[Fascinate General] voghan:
It wasn't so much that people questioned the devs work or accused them of hiding their work. It was that they treated people like jerks. One just has to scan this post and see their responses to see why people didn't like them.
[Fascinate General] ivorycruncher:
@CNemo

I hear where you're coming from, but like I said, this isn't a company/employee situation, and I'm not about to try and make it one. All this work is volunteer work, and should be treated as such, which means we don't sit here and talk about effeciency. Instead, we sit back, enjoy the results as they come, and donate to the cause.

The best way to deal with people whining about updates is to ignore them. If you entertain them by responding, they wont quit complaining.
[Fascinate General] uslacson1:
Well said Sir.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Well... Let it be!

But, what if I take liberty and will do some aggregation from punkkaos twitter to provide forum daily update? Would you people appreciate it? Would it make this forum better place?
[Fascinate General] jdkzombie:
oooo exciting

I enjoyed reading through this article, so much so that i decided to throw in my 2 cents.

Devs are a special group to me, without them sparing their free time to work on that next line of code, we wouldnt have custom roms. These guys bust their chops to right the wrongs when the manufacturers leave all of us high and dry. No one is forcing them to do anything, they arent recieving any commissions, or a salary, its unpaid labor most of the time until end users donate. Which brings me to my next thought..If your fav dev has a donate option, have you donated? Have you ( no offense meant to anyone) ever heard the phrase "every little bit helps"? Perhaps said dev cant afford to spend any more time working on fixing an issue in said rom because they have to go to work or school or whatever to pay a bill? Maybe they need (in the case of ThatDudeButch on IRC a week ago) a new usb high speed N wireless modem.

Try to look past the "hey i think the devs owe me one because <insert manufacturer name here> failed to provide what they promised" philosophy. It will simply get everyone nowhere fast.

And lastly, On the subject of IRC. Alot of us here frequent the IRC chat rooms, and yes topic does get off subject , but if you join the room with a problem that you need help resolving dont be afraid to ask. Im not a developer, i am however a SF user that has spent my time flashing whatever i can find to both gain knowledge and understanding on it, but also to fail and learn how to recover so that if someone needs help i can be ready to assist them with what i had learned. Almost everyone in IRC is willing to help if you are willing to listen.

and as far as elitism goes, i think i prefer to use the term "experienced". Some of these guys have been playing with android since before i knew what android was. And in that regard, most of them are out of their teens, 20's, hell some even 30's.... Give respect and you shall be given respect.

thats my 2 cents.
[Fascinate General] ivorycruncher:
If you really think it's worthwhile to repost all of kaos/birdman/whoever's twitter updates here, I don't see anything wrong with that. Unnecessary, maybe, but nothing wrong with it. :)
[Fascinate General] dricacho:
There's already a thread specific to Kaos' and Birdman's project. It's better to keep updates in their respective places so that information is not scattered in different threads. Less work for the mods in the long run consolidating this info into one place.