yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
I was looking for it in his github the night before last and the only reference I found was one that said the bump charging changes had been undone because they failed. He may have updated it since then but as of a few days ago his kernel still trickle charged
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
Oh I'm aware of that. I'm saying in general though this whole debate has been about the trickle charge kernels, but even the one that wasn't got lumped into this because it had SBC attached to it. And the merits of it have been overlooked.
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
I had inquired about v8 in his thread, and the response I got is that it charged differently, nothing about it not working. As of the moment it's currently locked :/
[EVO 4G General] ccossin:
Haus,

I emailed you the log file.

This has been a telepathic transmission from the Outer Limits.
[EVO 4G General] ccossin:
I'm using the original version 131 kernel. I'll make you a log in one minute intervals. Post it tomorrow.

This has been a telepathic transmission from the Outer Limits.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
mine is 4.207... only hit a couple times.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
To the contrary, in this context high temperature is the symptom of failure, not the cause. Once the temperature has spiked the damage has already been done and you are on your way to a possible catastrophic failure, with the worst scenario being a ruptured cell or explosion/fire.
[EVO 4G General] freeza:
I'm going to continue using SBC kernels. Thanks for the information though. We're now up to 632 threads on the supposed dangers of the kernel.
[EVO 4G General] Blitzpwnage:
And you know better than anyone right? Why are the threads even created if there wasn't a real problem? Why are people in denial it makes no sense.
[EVO 4G General] freeza:
Why are they all coming out of no where at pretty much the SAME time? Why are they happening to a small number of people? Gee, could it have anything to do with the way people are actually charging and using their phones?! I've been using the kernel since the day it was posted up and have upgraded with every release and my battery has been fine. Guess I either know how to properly charge my phone according to the DEV's guidelines, or maybe, just maybe I, along with the majority of satisfied SBC users, have a super phone!

My voltage has never gone above 4.211 :D (and it reached that number with WiFi on, during a phone call, and browsing a webpage)

PS: I have 3 batteries that have been circulating in and out of my EVO, all of which operate just fine with SBC kernels.
[EVO 4G General] sturmen:
Because people get scared. Even if SBC is to blame, no one is stopping or forcing you to use SBC. People make their own choices and developers are not accountable for the actions of the users.
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
Right. And the only way to do this is to power down your phone and charge it for an extended period of time. I don't know anybody who does that but.... If you do and you're using an SBC kernel, quit it. If trickle charging is harder on the battery in the long run.... Who cares? As posted earlier you should replace your batt yearly anyhow. Hell, a lot of people replace their phones yearly. :p I'm more concerned about getting the most out of my Evo now. But that's just me. :D
[EVO 4G General] ZachPA:
Have we yet established what specifically leads to an overcharge or a failure? In other words, is it just a USB charge or just an AC charge? From PC or wall? What is the predominant mode of failure? (Smoke and fire, smoke and mirrors, smoke and drink...)? I've seen it all but it's hard to digest all of it.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
You are right on most counts. However, we have to clear up some details. Most people do well with a fluids analogy, so lets try that.

ma = current => (water) flow

V = voltage => (water) pressure

battery => jar

Q (or C) = charge => water molecule

So, lets say our jar is rated for 10 atm (aka bars). Our jar has a hole in it so it is always leaking some water out of the bottom. However, the jar also has a bunch of baffles in it that prevents the water from moving around inside of the jar without encountering some resistance. The jar has a hose connected to the top where we fill it.

So, we apply some pressure to our water source and the water starts filling the jar. However, if we are only using 9 bar to fill it, we find that it doesn't get all the way full. In other words, at some point we get an equilibrium where the water leaving, flowing in, and the resistance inside of the jar all equal out. Now we up the pressure to 10 bar and everything reaches equilibrium again. However, if we were to measure the pressure in the jar itself, it would be less than 10 bar. And what's this, but equilibrium is actually resulting in a slightly less than full jar. This is because of the resistance inside of the jar again. Well, we want our jar to be perfectly filled, so we up the pressure to just barely over 10 bar at our source. Now the pressure in the jar gets to exactly 10 and is reaching exactly full so we cut off the pressure because anything over 10 damages the jar. But as soon as we do that, the pressure drops below 10 in the jar, and we begin the process again. (see this graph http://www.mpoweruk.com/chargers.htm#hysteresis)

The assumption we are using in all of this is that we are getting extremely precise measurements. However, in order for people to be getting such uber dramatic increases in battery life, one of the following things should be true (not an exhaustive list, I am getting tired):

The battery is overcharged and the voltage is not reading properly because of this fact.

The voltage measurements are inaccurate in the stock kernel.
[EVO 4G General] |Jason8|:
To be honest, the only failures I've seen are all USB charging... And I remember seeing warnings about trickle charging via USB and how it'll have issues.

So...
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
This. heat can cause damage fast, especially with an electro-chemical component such as a battery, but usually heat is the byproduct of something failing.

The machines I work on use capacitors to help start and stop the motors that run parts of the machine. Due to a motor not running, and smoke coming out of the wireway, i tested the caps. Both tested out fine, but one was hot. Since it tested out fine, i didnt change it. A week later it exploded.

Now I know, capacitors and batterys differ, especially in the application the above scenario happened in, but to think that heat is the only way to quickly damage an electronic component is not a good belief to have. Especially when the chemicals inside the battery can react and make their own heat, as opposed to a capacitor thats overheating simply from current draw.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
damage to the phone wont happen instantaneously though would it?, thats the main thing you want to protect.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
I am not trying to push an agenda, start a fight, or make your decisions for you. I am trying to get peoples attention about the risks that are present in these kernels as it relates to the EE facts presented by the devs. Based on their descriptions, there are real risks there. Again, as an engineer I am *OBLIGATED* to inform people of risks in their choices, especially where understanding is perhaps missing.

What I do want to do (yes, I have messaged MS) is figure out exactly how they are operating the charging because I doubt the accuracy is as razor tight as it needs to be for this to actually work and because the information they have shared is contradictory. I would like to help vet the methodology and give people an actual engineering understanding of the safety consequences, minor or major, to using these kernels.

Again, like others have said, temperature is not a cause of failure, it is an indication of one. At that point, it is too late. You can damage the cells gradually over time and build up gas pockets that eventually cause leaks that can then burn. The existing charging system is built to allow the battery to fail gracefully at the end of its useful life. We don't know if the SBC's will do the same (and I am not even remotely qualified to evaluate it).

This is about information. Everyone on here can probably live with reduced cycle life. But I can't live with a burned down house or worse.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
The fact that it is a USB connection has no bearing on the engineering facts. Trickle charging is dangerous to Li-Ion batteries no matter what (for reasons stated in the OP). Now, if the term trickle charging is misapplied, then that explains some things, but doesn't necessarily make the method safe.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
It's holding the voltage to it's maximum for so long that can hasten failure. Doing that changes the insides of the battery and after awhile leads to an unstable battery.
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
I think your analogy is flawed. Where's the release valve on your jar? What you're saying only works if our phone is always on the charger and never in use if what you're saying is that the charge time while in sleep mode is what's causing damage or a dangerous situation. My phone isn't in a state of perpetual charging with no usage as I'm sure most people's aren't. If my phone is charging for 5-6 hrs without use... That's a lot for me. Probably 8 hrs is average for most.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
looking forward to knowing the ACTUAL risks as it pertains to SBC and not just general charging risks of Li-Ion.

I'm confident that you and MS will work this out and provide everyone a clear understanding.

(for future reference, it might be advantageous to figure it all out before starting the thread, just to keep people thoughts clear and concise if the story does end up changing)
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
I think what has caused all of this is not that people are using them, it's that people are misleading others into thinking there is absolutely no danger in using them when there is. Personally I couldn't care less what others do to their phones but lying to people who don't know any better either on purpose or out of willful ignorance is just wrong.

Especially when it has the potential to cause serious damage/harm to more than their phone.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
The analogy is not perfect, but there is no analog for a release valve in the battery either. The only emergency release in the battery would be for the phone to start using as much power as possible. This would be like opening a hose that is tied to the jar.

The leak in the jar is the parallel to the fact that the phone is using some power every second it is turned on. I chose not to extend the analogy to the time when it wasn't charging because we aren't worried about damage during discharge.
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
I think we need to define danger. Is it a phone exploding in my face... or worse yet my pocket :eek: or is it my battery or phone crapping out?
[EVO 4G General] bwcorvus:
Mine is down to 10ma, I'll upload soon as it finishes.
[EVO 4G General] gpz1100:
xHausx (or is that ccossin's log?),

Was the phone experiencing heavy use between 1600 and 1800 hours? A 40% drop in 2 hours is quite considerable IMO.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
To you folks on here that want to see data sheets and logs before you want to believe what some of us are trying to say:

Long before any of us even USED this type of battery in any CE device, engineers and developers have been testing and researching. Theyve been looking at data sheets and logs and doing real world testing. In this testing they have been able to determine the best way to charge a li-ion battery. Not only for lifespan, but also for safety. In their tests they determined there was a real danger when these batteries are handled incorrectly. These engineers have gone to school for a minimum of 4 years learning about physics and chemistry, among other subjects relevant.

4 years... doesnt really hold a candle to the maybe hours you have spent online looking up information trying to understand what we have been telling you.

Now in some instances throwing caution to the wind and experimenting on your own is safe. Overclocking is a perfect example of that. Taking a chip beyond its original design specs. However, when a chip fails, all it does is stop working. When these batteries fail, given the right circumstances, it can be dangerous to people as well as property. That is why many of us have been advocating caution when it comes to messing with charging.

I know many of you really want a simple fix to the battery issue we all have to deal with. And I applaud MS for his work as contributions like that is what makes xda great. But unfortunately this is one circumstance a software shortcut cannot help us.
[EVO 4G General] cowboyboats:
Battery histroy

Attached is my battery history from 12/30 to present. I watch about 4-6 hours of TV at work, guess that makes me a heavy user. Let me know if you need anymore information to make this info useful.

CM7 RC0

Savage 1.5.2 Kernal

Seido extended Battery 4500 mah

Battery History.txt
[EVO 4G General] ccossin:
That was my log and yes I was using it quite heavily.

This has been a telepathic transmission from the Outer Limits.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
It looks like you need to reset your batt stats to account for the bigger battery, it thinks it is fully charged before it is even 3/4 of the way there. That is why your batt shows 100% for such a long time.

And just for the record I do not have an engineering degree (yet) but my dad and step brother are both EEs. That and I have worked along side aerospace, electrical, mechanical and software engineers for awhile now so I'm not exactly ignorant when it comes to electronics.
[EVO 4G General] cowboyboats:
I have calibrated multiple times, it always goes back for some reason

Sent from CM7 via ginger XDA
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
Are you charging it with the phone turned off, resetting the stats, and then letting the battery drain till the phone shuts down without plugging it in?
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
2011/01/14 23:49:37,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:50:27,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:50:37,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:51:28,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:51:38,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:51:51,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:51:52,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:51:53,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:51:53,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:51:54,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:52:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:52:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:53:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:53:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:54:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:54:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:55:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:55:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:56:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:56:38,6mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:57:29,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:57:30,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:57:31,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:57:32,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:57:33,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:57:38,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:58:33,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:58:38,4mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:58:57,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:59:14,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:59:16,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:59:17,8mA,100%

2011/01/14 23:59:18,8mA,100%

This is what my sbc kernel is doing on 100%

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
Steady over charging, yours would be a good one to experiment with. Would you be willing to leave it on the charger to see how long it takes to fail? My guess would be maybe three days at that rate
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
Lol I got insurence I wouldn't mind, but I need it for work. As long as I'm using my phone it shouldn't be putting in more than I'm using, don't get me wrong I'm scared to go to sleep tonight using this, but I'm doing it in the name of science.

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
Okay so we need some one to see how many ma per second your phone uses while in stand by and on, if you aren't putting in as much ma as being used theoretically it should be fine..

Aren't these 1700 Ma batteries?

I took my phone off the charger for one minute, look at the (negative) numbers, that'd almost the whole battery, something isn't adding up..

2011/01/15 00:20:28,6mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:20:29,6mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:21:05,4mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:22:29,4mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:23:05,4mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:24:29,6mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:25:05,4mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:26:29,4mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:27:05,0mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:28:26,6mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:28:28,6mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:28:29,6mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:28:56,2mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:29:01,2mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:29:05,2mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:29:11,-436mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:29:32,-216mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:29:46,-216mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:29:53,-216mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:29:58,-198mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:30:00,-198mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:31:05,48mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:32:00,28mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:33:05,18mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:34:00,20mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:35:05,18mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:36:00,18mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:37:05,16mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:38:00,14mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:39:05,12mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:40:00,14mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:41:05,12mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:42:00,10mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:43:05,12mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:44:00,6mA,100%

2011/01/15 00:45:05,8mA,100%

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
Stock is 1500mAh (milliAmps for an hour) @ 3.7V
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
Dont leave it in while you're asleep unless you have it in the garage and no where near anything flammable. I was kind of joking around when I said it but if you are willing to risk losing your phone. :)

Just be safe about it.
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
Actually I was worried about that but I found a fail safe to not burning my house down, let it charge on my stomach. Then if something fishy goes down, it will burn me and wake me up. Lol it should work, but I'm not to worried.

All in the name of science, wish I would have made a control though....

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
lol, you've never seen a youtube video of a lipo burning have you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCWdnjLqVWw
[EVO 4G General] cowboyboats:
yes but I think the band backups is the culprit

Sent from CM7 via ginger XDA
[EVO 4G General] cowboyboats:
I believe in flower pot charging haha

Sent from CM7 via ginger XDA
[EVO 4G General] freeza:
I've slept with my phone near my face for the past few weeks with this kernel. Afraid of death? HELL TO THE NO.
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
Charging your phone with ANY kernel will never get to this point.

It is impossible for it to catch fire with anything close to a stock charger.

Hook it to a car battery? Deliver a couple hundred AMPS (that's 2-700,000+mah)? Whole different story.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
lol, I'm surprised it took that long :rolleyes:

We go hard here, I want my battery to last all month! If you aint talking about charging it with a car battery than you can gtfo
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
Sorry... My Bad... thought I was at Howards.

I am leaving OK! Put down the pliers and the torch...
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
They are two different units. And battery monitor widget is only set to record every minute. You need to know the data at a very small interval
[EVO 4G General] deallocate:
You could have just done =SUM(C92:C228)/60 (cell C92 is the first after 100% charge, and divide by 60 to turn mA into mAh since the time measurement is in minutes changed to hours). That ends up as 32 mAh overcharge (which is the same number you have in cell K230?), not 116 mAh (which I don't see anywhere in your spreadsheet). Of course, I can't say how well the meassurment tool is, since the spreadsheet does not include any odd mA readings - assuming it is +/- 1 mA accuracy at the very best then, which is a very small variance (a max of +/-32 mAh is easily possible).

Assuming the meassurment is fairly accurate, that is a failry small over-charge or possibly none due to meassurement variance.

Still doesn't answer if holding the voltage above 4.05v (or whatever the magic number for these batteries is) could lead to a shortened battery life or catostropic failure, but it doesn't seem to be overcharging the battery much (if at all) based on these measurements.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
That was a log someone sent me from a few pages back, I made a new worksheet for the other ones. It looks like some phones it is eventually going down to zero but on others it continues to trickle charge indefinitely. One that is not in there the lowest it would go was ~25mA
[EVO 4G General] bwcorvus:
I actually sleep with mine under my pillow :) If i don't my alarm wont walk me up.
[EVO 4G General] ccossin:
Haus,

I emailed you a new log that was taken at 1 minute intervals while I slept last night.

This has been a telepathic transmission from the Outer Limits.
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
You can set it to what ever interval you want

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!
[EVO 4G General] gx1400:
Just FYI for anyone who doesn't know. mA and mAh are a totally different set of values.

mA is a measure of current.

mAh is a rating for current over a period of time.

The stock battery is 1500mAh? That means the battery is rated to pull 1.5A continuously for 1 hour, or .75A for 2 hours, etc.
[EVO 4G General] kamtsa:
The important battery characteristic is actually wh (voltage * current * time) since the cell voltage drops as energy get consumed.

For some reason, battery manufactures do not specify it.
[EVO 4G General] gx1400:
Batteries are rated in mAh because wh would require it to be rated at a constant voltage, but batteries change voltage as the energy is distributed.
[EVO 4G General] mlin:
I have been comparing the charging habits with the latest CM kernel vs the SBC kernels and I have noticed that the maintained voltage level as reported by Battery Monitoring Widget as almost identical (above 4.2 V (4.201 - 4.211)between the two kernels. What differes is that the CM kernel will allow discharging (not seemingly enough to drop voltage, and also for short periods of time (<5min)), while the SBC kernel seems to never discharge, though gradually approaches 0 mA while maintaining the same level of voltage.

From this it seems that the issue is not the sustained voltage above 4.05 V but rather the inability of the battery to discharge (based on the article at battery university). I am still waiting to see if current will ever reach 0 mA (I know for some it does and others it doesn't) and if so, does this negate concerns of "trickle charging above 4.05 V?" Lithium plating at the anode will not occur at 0 mA, but what about the time the battery sits at 4.2 V with the current graudally approaching 0 mA? Is that significant?

Edit: just looked throgh the las few pages and realized that some of this has already been covered/presented. I'll go ahead and leave it here nonetheless.
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
See our lipo battery chargers do exactly that, which is slowly lower the amps that is put in as it gets closer to the sustained charge of each cell. It also seems that these are doing it to, as a fail safe built in, and on lipo batteries it wont hurt to be left at full charge for a few hours, like what we are talking (over night) but it will hurt the life of the batteries to be left for like a month, I actually just ruined two lipos at 45 bucks a piece by letting them discharge to far, I know some will say you can bring them back, which I know, but it is playing with fire.

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!
[EVO 4G General] v01rider:
im still using salvage 1.6 cfs sbc. here are my last charging/discharging results. i have noticed that there are periods of no reporting. i cant make sense of that. 2 things, it could be what some think is the overcharge chip kicking in, or, i have sleep myphone by ostrium software installed to cut off all radios after midnight.

anyway, here are my results for the devs to continue trouble shooting.

View attachment battery_history.txt