yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G General] willy900wonka:
I'm sure that all the references to over charging in the op, were in reference to unprotected li-ion batteries. We Cannot Over Charge Our Batteries. They are protected against that.

I do wonder why someone would try to stifle this concept.
[EVO 4G General] wuclan48:
How about you just move along if you have nothing to add. Why do you feel the need to ask others to stop discussing this? No one is depriving you of this kernel. No one is forcing you to read this thread.

Sent from the void...
[EVO 4G General] -shift-:
reading is fundamental.. the op stated this earlier in the thread:

source

if you are not an engineer, you don't know it.
[EVO 4G General] mutant13:
Well said, I've been using the kernel net 4.3 havs more sbc w/the latest fresh rom 3.5.0.1 for 2 weeks, no problems yet...battery 75 to 77 degrees after a full night charge, stays @ 100% for 2 hours with no use, I will be at about 90% after 5 hours of moderate use, I'm a first time poster here and a first timer at rooting, these are my first rom/kernel combo.
[EVO 4G General] okcnyyfan:
If you want to know if you are overcharging your battery let it sit at full charge for a couple of hours, pull the battery and check the battery voltage with a volt meter. The software may not be programmed to show anything higher than 4.2 VDC. Anything higher than 4.20 VDC means the battery is over charged and the kernal should not be used.
[EVO 4G General] matt2053:
The software does show voltages over 4.20. I've hit 4.207 a few times. Besides doesn't the software just report data from the sensors? And the sensors are made my HTC and thus are infallible.
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
We could have a billion of knowledgeable posts like this one and people will still say: "uh, mines hasn't failed or blown up yet!!! you're obviously a idiot! OMG shut up already!!!!"

I'm just going to sit here and wait for the battery failure and eventually poor battery life from degradation threads to pop up over the next couple of weeks.
[EVO 4G General] mutant13:
so battery degradation takes a couple of weeks withe an SBC kernel?
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
Does award tour = mitchellvii?
[EVO 4G General] -shift-:
no.... that's uncalled for, gman....
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
I forgot that is the name we shall not speak of
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
in response to the bolded statement. there are MANY MANY users of SBC. our voltages are being held at 4.2V for multiple hours at a time. you said failure occurs in minutes. mine and i'm sure a lot of other users have actually been sitting there at 4.2 for a matter of weeeeks. no failure.

Edit: i reread that part and i misunderstood. you are saying that our batteries are already having internal battery corrosion or ion plating, and its just a matter of time till this "kills" our battery. (sorry for the confusion on my part)

the rest of what you said is very understandable and clears a lot up. i'm guessing the failsafe's in the battery cannot prevent failure from holding at 4.2 voltage.

so if we changed the SBC kernel to allow for bump charging also. as in letting it drop below 4.0V then start charging again to 4.2V, this would solve that problem? that or bypassing the battery if its possible when its fully charged and only running on external power?
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
not possible. Htc would have had to build the circuits into the phone.
[EVO 4G General] mutant13:
hmmmm... I'm new here, but sounds like he/she was a heck of a poster...

Like I said Ive been using SBC for 2 weeks now...so I'll let you know how it is in 2 more(next couple)of weeks if my battery "fails"....

sent from my PC cuz steve jobs ego made me
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
that is kinda what i figured
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
This in affect is what the stock kernel does already, rendering any gains from the SBC kernel null.

As no 2 batteries are perfectly identical, YMMV on how long you can run this kernel before you experience noticable negative effects from it. But the plating does start to occur almost immediately upon holding the battery at its upper limit voltage unless you allow the battery to start to discharge.

And the reason the stand alone wall chargers (the ones that charge the battery outside of a phone) will effectively charge to 100% is because once it is done with the charge cycle there is nothing discharging the battery except for its own built in circuitry, hence it stays at 100% untill you plug it into your phone.
[EVO 4G General] -shift-:
please.... you don't know the mitchellvii debacle, so don't make assumptions about award tour. be respectful, especially since you're new here.
[EVO 4G General] Biggest Fro:
So, in 20 pages we have decided that-

1, Holding a Li-Ion battery above 4volts will shorten it's life cycle. How short depends on the battery. How bad the ending is depends on the battery.

2, We have Engineers who know nothing about Kernals stating facts about kernals, and Kernal dev's who know nothing about Engineering *possibly* putting people at risk.

I have a question to everyone that has had a battery fail while using SBC, WHICH KERNAL WERE YOU RUNNING? There were several different Kernals. Perhaps one was a bad egg?

I am currently running 4.1.9.1 #9 (I think it was the release prior to the HTC one) When charging my battery overnight, it does not exceed 4.2volts. Upon reading the back of all my batterys (I have 3 1500mAh and 2 2000mAh) they all say "4.2v"

That would mean that they are rated to hold 4.2volts, right?

As I said in a previous post on this thread, I don't believe all the SBC kernals are bad, Ms was experimenting with several different kinds trying to see what worked best. Some may have not worked well for some people.

I am not an engineer, or a dev.

I am also not a drama queen calling people liars and such because my battery hasn't blown up in my face.

I am simply trying to put everything together so we can work as a team to create the best charging method possible. XDA is supposed to be a place where geniuses can come together and build amazing things.

Now lets stop arguing who is right or wrong, and work on fixing what needs/doesn't need fixed. :D

I mean, we all want our batterys to last 48 hours on a single charge, so lets get it done. :cool:
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
The cheap A** jerks. Could have solved this whole problem, and given Everyone better battery life.

Everyone is saying how those battery fail safes could fail... they could just as easily do that on the stock kernel and cause problems.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
i guess i figured the HTC charge method was based purely on percent, but its probably on voltage.

the stock battery is one thing, but how could you change it for people with extended batteries to allow them to charge all the way to their max and then have it back off to below 4.0. i guess that makes me think that HTC isnt based on voltage. i have no idea.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
You are mostly right, but there are a few things that need mentioning. First, I am having a hellacious time locating a datasheet for the protection IC. Second, it really depends on the industry standards, but in lots of industries it is a good idea to have a double fail-safe. This means that if something has a chance of damaging health and human safety, you want to have a software limit, like the kernel, and a backup, like the protection IC. I don't know if this is standard in batteries, but ***IF*** it is, relying on the IC to cut out every 10 minutes is an unknown risk level. If that IC isn't designed for that, we could be destroying them prematurely. Those are not the kinds of gambling games that you usually take with HHS without knowing what you are doing.

Second, I really disagree with the whole "the battery has to be defective" argument. That is both shortsighted and negligent. We don't know enough about the system to offload blame to a component supplier.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
do you not understand how much harder and more expensive this would have been for them? think of the miles and miles of wires then would have had to fit inside a tiny phone to do that...

i dont expect anything less from them :eek:
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
double post... oops ;-)
[EVO 4G General] Biggest Fro:
The bigger batteries hold the same Volts, just more juice

mAh is different from Volts
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Does that danger have anything to do with the charge/discharge voltage hysteresis? It seems to me that the slopes at the peak voltage are so sharp they are probably difficult to measure in most charging controls.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
In the OPs defense, he wasnt saying anything about the kernel that he didnt get directly from the posts about said kernel. And a battery doesnt "hold" 4.2v, it holds an amount of charge. The debate is whether or not forcing a charge on a battery already at 4.2v and at the point where current should have been shut off already is safe enough to justify the short term capacity gain.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
right i understand that, but people with extended batteries must do the poweroff, charge till green. unplug. replug, charge till green, repeat. to get a full charge. that was one of the things MS wanted to accomplish with the mod.

so how does HTC REALLY charge the battery.
[EVO 4G General] mutant13:
no disrespect meant, sorry if I sounded like a smart ass, but he did say the next couple of weeks... so I'll let you know if mine fails in the next couple of weeks
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
I also have found in my reading that this circuit is more like a fuse, not a circuit breaker in that once it has to do its job, the battery is no longer usable.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
The problem probably has more to do with how the gauge works off of voltage. The battery meters are designed to estimate a percentage of usable charge left in the battery dependant on the voltage the battery is putting out. The voltage drops off faster on the high end as it is used than it does on the low end. The 3500 mAh battery I had in my touch pro would drop down to 80% almost instantly. But then it would take most of the day for it to go from 80-70%. The meters were not calibrated with these super capacity batteries in mind.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
if they don't do the pull repeat method the battery life i hear is the same as stock battery. so they still arent getting it even with wrong percent values.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
That is precisely what it does, it is just a fail safe in case the charger or whatever grossly malfunctions. It does not monitor charge levels or anything like that.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
that would be why some of the peoples batteries are unusable after their failure... the battery cant be charged anymore due to the protection circuit failure. also would be why people say they charge it to full and put it in the phone and it wont turn on. there were 2 or 3 failure stories that said stuff like that.

if the phone doesnt explode, you still run the risk of tripping the protection circuit and bricking your battery.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
I would be interested in testing that theory myself if I had an extended battery for my EVO. As I love my otterbox I will not be getting one though. :( In a discussion I had in another thread on that particular subject it was thought that possibly just leaving the phone on the charger for up to an hour after the light turns green could help too as the light turns green prior to the actual end of the charging cycle.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
for some reason just reading this made me laugh a little... its humorous to read a line like that :)
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
i'm in the same boat... don't have one either.

trying to be strait forward and with no confusion. :confused:
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
It just seems a little backwards, we would hope the "switch" fails before the battery explodes.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
It just was more the fact that we're talking about phones exploding... it just struck me as a pretty silly problem to have lol. Wasnt taking away from your point any as it was valid.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
Very true. From my understanding the problem is that this "switch" was designed to protect against a gross over-voltage to the battery, not neccessarily an overcurrent or plating. There are other safety mechanisms in the battery, but none of them are failproof. They are only meant to help against explosion if the right circumstances exist to cause one. For example the battery is built to vent should internal pressure hit a certain level (although the battery venting is not exactly a good thing to have happen either.)
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
I was walking around with this can of fuel, and have no where to leave it. Oh how about here?

batteryboss.org

Most if not all of the extended batteries are pure junk.

I like the pic of the mugen. total junk.
[EVO 4G General] timdawgdentist:
Gawd I wish I had mutiquote. That being said. This is what I take after reading almost 22 pages of posts. All the engineering guys (Not a sneer or anything) are saying " based upon what they know of lipo batteries because these batteries are not new. That repeatedly charging your battery in this manner could damage your battery". They say that because "they" had to read all the textbooks. Which engineers before them wrote. That this is an improper battery charging method. For this type of battery. Engineers spent hundreds of hours testing these theories. Thats why "these engineering guys" are saying this.

Please don't correct all the grammar mistakes.

I dont think anyone here should feel slighted or insulted. This is a community of people trying to aid one another. To make our phones cooler, faster, whatever. To many people here take offense to title or rank or degree. All everyone here is trying to do is make things better. Everyone has an opinion.

Yes I have tested this Sbc myself on my phone. I am using it now. I realize at some point my battery could stop working. I accept that. The engineers are here to warn and guide us. I say engineers because imo devs are engineers too. Ms (sbc guy) was looking for an answer to a much asked question. Why the eff does my battery suck. I wouldn't begin to say this sbc has been tested long enough for anyone to know the long term effects. Yes you engineers "know" the possible end result.

So if you don't care about possibly have to buy a battery in the future use sbc. If you plan on keeping your phone for a longer period and worry about your device don't.

I think this horse has been beaten, shot, revived, killed again.

that was like $0.04 worth

:):):)

tim
[EVO 4G General] blunden:
Sorry, had to cut the quoted part a bit.

Though you certainly make some good points, I think you are missing the point here. It's not just a case of "the battery might stop working". A lot of people seem to be underestimating the danger certain kinds of batteries can cause when not properly controlled/handled. There is a reason they include electronics that are supposed to keep it within known tolerances in Li-Ion batteries but don't on several other types. Hopefully they would just stop working but if the worst came to the worst they could explode or erupt in a cloud of fire.
[EVO 4G General] wfrandy:
That is basically how the stock htc charging cycle works. You might be able to bump the voltages a bit because my guess is htc probably has it set conservatively. But what you would end up with is pretty much stock performance.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
Go back and read the responses. I'm just looking out for the extended battery crowd. They don't get fully charged on the stock kernel. We still need some sort of compensation for them to work better
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
There is also a safety timer that will halt charging if the voltage had been at 4.2V for longer than hour. Take that out, which ms did, and I would be willing to bet your batteries finish charging. you could also use htcs advice and unplug it for a few moments when it stops charging, then plug it back in.
[EVO 4G General] kenny111008:
so im guessing now that the mods have cleared up that SBC kernels dont do damage to batteries can we end this topic lol
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Yeah, that hasn't been cleared up at all. Thanks though.
[EVO 4G General] KINGOFNOOBS:
let people do whatever. if and when their battery explodes let them come running back.
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
Not an issue if ms posts a warning so people can be informed and removes his endorsement that it will not damage your battery.

What's so hard about doing that?

Yet he refuses.

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10559934&postcount=4125

Every root thread, ROM thread and other kernel thread is required to post warnings why can't his?
[EVO 4G General] 94tbird:
for whatever its worth, using Battery Monitor Widget and the SBC #15 Kernel, only charging on the A/C wall charger (never USB charge) on my stock HTC Battery, I have reviewed 2 weeks of logs from the HTC Battery Widget which has been set to update once a minute

The absolute Highest Voltage I saw was a 4208, twice in 2 weeks and only for a minute at a time.

The second highest I saw was 4200 which is what the phone sits at when FULLY charged in the middle of the night and the mA slowly trickles down to 0mA and stays between 0mA and 2mA once a full charge has been reached.

In the 2 week period while charging, the temp never exceeded 20 degrees Celcius (68F). The temperature gets far warmer while using the phone throughoutthe day.

From reading everything in here, Until proven that it will degredate my battery or explode my battery, I will continue to use the SBC Kernel. Again this is only my opinion and my choice and my experience.
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
Fair enough.

That's your choice.

But you're informed.

You are one of the few [and that includes people that post in here all the time, not just people that only look for kernels etc and leave] that actually has read it.

The SBC thread is 4200 posts long.

How many people do you think are going to read through all of that to learn that it may not truly be safe?

Very few.

People are going to read the OP, see the comment about how ms says it's safe and flash.

People like that should be informed of the warning.

That's all that is requested.

XDA is requesting it as well.
[EVO 4G General] wfrandy:
If you continue to use the sbc kernel, you will continue to get those readings, that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that your battery is being damaged, until the day your battery fails.

That is the only problem I have with this whole thing. You guys are posting these logs, trying to show that it isn't hurting your battery. When in actuality, those logs prove exactly the opposite. That is, that the sbc kernel holds the battery in a fully charged state for an extended period of time, which is a well known method to make lithium ion batteries fail.

I agree with the previous poster, if the Dev for this kernel mod had said something like the following example warning;

According to the battery manufacturer and experts, this will cause your battery to fail. But I would like some volunteers to give it a go to see what happens.

Had he done that, their wouldn't be a problem and we wouldn't be here discussing this. Instead it is obvious from reading the sbc thread, that regarding the technical and safety issues with charging lithium ion batteries, he is more clueless than most here. If he had done the most basic research, he could never have stated that this method of charging is safe like he did in the Op of his thread.
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
Exactly.

An extension:

People keep saying they're "willing to take the risk" [evidence in this thread http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=876590]

Yet if you read what people are saying...certainly since yesterday when I started posting in it... people generally aren't "willing to take the risk" at all...they're just willing to defraud the Sprint insurance if something goes wrong.

Separate issue but still.... ::thumbs down::
[EVO 4G General] u921333:
One of the parts that keeps getting brought up that I dont understand is "holding a battery at a full state for extended periods of time is bad". Wouldnt that be the same as a stand alone charger? I mean it loads it up to 100% and then turns off but as previously stated they lose very little power with its own circuitry. Would it be the same risk as say charging the with the phone to 100% and removing the battery for 2 days and then trying to use it again?

Just curious because it seems that overcharging isnt happening or it would trip the internal circuit in battery and we should see higher then 4.2 readings and seems a battery in a stand alone charger would cause the same sitting at 100% since it would lose very little energy on its own.
[EVO 4G General] u921333:
That does make sence .... Thank you.

Seems like at least the overcharge part could be confirmed or debunked with a simple test of charging a battery up using the SBC kernel and using a external multi meter or something maybe a little more scientific LOL and checking it versus the charge recieved on a non-SBC kernel. This way it eliminates the variable of the kernel just giving a false reading.

Then it would only leave the one item to determine the effects on the battery and that would be the issue of maintaining a full charge on it.

I would and I imagine several other posters would be willing to do the first test but I have no clue or even know if its possible to test the second part.
[EVO 4G General] sidepart:
Exactly why I still use it. I don't really care about my battery life cycle. However, I don't think it's necessarily that people are unsure if it's charing above 4.2V. I think it'd be awesome to prove that it's not, but it still doesn't change the fact that you have a live charger hooked up to the battery. Something buggy or random could cause it to draw current thus overcharging it when it's not supposed to. To make it safer, you want to make sure that the charger is COMPLETELY off and more or less isolated from charging the cell when it's at 4.2V. Trickle charging doesn't do that.

Now hey, there may not be some random set of variables that'd trigger an event like this, but we just don't know. It's better to err on the side of caution when you're designing a product is all and to give yourself some operating limits. I personally don't care since I'm the one making this choice for myself. I don't want to convince anyone that this is "safe" for deployment to a market of consumers. Just that it's generally not "unsafe" I guess, just be aware.