yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
You are assuming you know more about how product managers operate than it seems you actually know. If they had lots of people complain that the batteries needed to be replaced after 6 months, they could have just been reacting to what people wanted. But I can assure you, they never used a trickle charger on a Li-Ion battery. Please try not to inject conjecture into an engineering discussion.
[EVO 4G General] matt2053:
OP, dude, you can't title your thread "IF YOU ARE USING SBC STOP!" and then be all like "I don't have an agenda. Who me? I'm just sharing information."

Your OP in a nutshell says, "omgz stop using SBC!!!!! PS what's SBC??"

This whole thread is based on your own conjecture.

Give me a break.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
1. I hate to break it to you, but engineering is largely assumptions. Also, I am an EE, not a software developer. Thats why the thread title say EE knowledge. :confused:

2. Your experience is not indicative of the overall safety of the charging scheme. Temperature is not a reliable measure of battery health and/or damage. End of story.

3. So what? Until MS or someone making these kernels gets together with an EE, they could be bypassing this for all we know.

You appear to be the one that has no idea what you are talking about.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
You are basically restating things which I have essentially disproven with engineering understanding of the system in the OP. That is not why the battery drops 10%. That is not why it takes so long to charge from 90 to 100%. Seriously, either debate it on the engineering level, or stop.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Now everything you said makes sense. What qualifies you to call bs in an engineering argument without knowledge of all of the underlying principles?
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
I did want to follow up that question since you missed it.

Raider, to be honest, you've done more than enough.

You cannot convince someone that doesn't respect facts and expertise of something.

Simply because they have been using something for a month that does not prove that you won't wake up to a fire tomorrow.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Yeah what you just said doesn't make any sense whatsoever (from an EE perspective). I am not even sure how to decode that into a technically correct statement.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Like I said elsewhere in the thread, I have messaged MS to try and get together with him and ensure that it is safe. My point in saying I have no agenda is that I am not just throwing grenades and running away. I am trying to work with the devs to figure out what they are doing, but that in the mean time, there is a definite lack of correct information in what the devs have posted to indicate that this is not safe. I suggest not using it until it can be cleared up.
[EVO 4G General] -shift-:
wow... such hardcore, blind support for sbc....

raiderinks, as a fellow engineer, i see and understand what you're saying. when sbc mods first came out, i was hesitant myself and kept my distance. it just seemd too fishy. regardless, thanks for outlining it properly and keeping your composure around the hate. knowledge always stands above ignorance.

on a related but slight off-topic note, we all know not all evos are created equal. we also know that tweaking power and performance from any device isn't a complete science.

however, with that said, htc is a mainly hardware manufacturer. it knows its **** when it concerns that, which includes battery power management. so, for those who are taking this thread personally and getting their panties bunched up, calm down, take a deep breath, and really focus those brain cells to logic (which math and engineering is based on).

just my thoughts and advice on the matter.
[EVO 4G General] matt2053:
Starting an alarming thread is not helpful. If you want to work with MS may I suggest this format:

Bug description:

Exact steps to reproduce:

Feel free to copy and paste.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Thanks for your advice, but I politely decline your suggestion. That is how you correct an expected outcome in a given design. It is not how you correct a fundamentally flawed design that could potentially cause catastrophic component failures at the end of their lifetime instead of graceful component failures. Health and human safety is the hallmark of responsible engineering and it is my duty to bring real concerns to light.

Obligation of the Engineer
[EVO 4G General] wuclan48:
I for one do think it's helpful and necessary to make an alarming thread. If there is a potential risk for harm (which there is) anyone who knows this from experience (which the OP does) should be shouting it. To all those who are denouncing the OP for being an alarmist or saying he doesn't know what he's saying, are you an engineer? If a doctor tells you smoking may lead to lung cancer are you going to tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about? It's well within your rights to keep smoking but you shouldn't be in denial about the risks. The same is true here. Notice as well that anyone else who's chimed in about being an engineer in these threads has echoed the OP's warnings.

On another note to all those that have said their battery never exceeds the maximum voltage. You seem to have missed the OP's other crucial point; that you're assuming accurate measurement by the phone, which you have no proof of.

To the OP. Thank you. I've been a member of automotive forums for a while and this same behavior of denial of risk, despite the input of engineers on forums has always been present there as well. Exactly the same uninformed denial. And 9 times out of 10 it would end the same way, a blown engine after months of the person claiming that their lack of problems *so far* was proof that the engineer had no idea what he was talking about. And most of the time it was someone running on the ragged edge with inadequate diagnostic equipment (i.e. Adding a turbo and cranking the boost up without a wideband).

The closer you get to running anything on the edge the more accurate your diagnostic instruments need to be! This is true in any field! It's possible the phone is not all that accurate in measuring voltage because it doesn't need to be. If the battery charging scheme isn't on the ragged edge then accuracy may not be as crucial. There may be a margin of error acceptable under htc's stock charging scheme that is no longer acceptable within the charging scheme of this modified kernel. It could also be plain buggy. The point is you don't know the accuracy of measurement but you've now brought things to the edge so you are now relying on assumed accuracy to keep you safe.

Obviously I have not even mentioned what the OP and several others have mentioned about trickle charging a lithium-ion battery and the inherent danger in that. That should hopefully be clearly evident by anyone literate at this point. My point is that even forgetting about that fact you should at least be concerned about relying on assumptions for your safety.

Sent from the void...
[EVO 4G General] -shift-:
.... +1 ....
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
I am glad he found that (and I am reading through the datasheets now) but his analysis lacks engineering level accuracy. Just because the features on the front say it protects it doesn't mean that it couldn't be rendered useless by misapplication.
[EVO 4G General] bigmoogle:
I also think that the OP has done us a good service by his "alarming" post. It points out risks of SBC from an engineer's viewpoint. Remember, MS declared the kernels safety and benefits equally as strongly.

What I find disturbing is MS' response to questions. He was pretty nonchalant about inconsistencies in his OP. He has admitted that he is not an engineer, but a medical student.

So of the two, I think OP has more knowledge.
[EVO 4G General] matt2053:
I for one don't try to figure out who to believe, but I make my own conclusions based on my observations.

So far Raider has provided nothing new to the SBC discussion that I can see. He wants to come across as scientific but so far we have nothing to go on besides his opinion. No facts, no tests, no real-world observations.

SBC may or may not be dangerous, but there's certainly nothing to be found in this thread that indicates one way or the other.

Maybe I'm overreacting but I just find the whole "you should just believe me because I'm an engineer" schtick to be a bit off-putting. If you're an such a gifted engineer, you whip up some tests and wow us with some irrefutable raw data.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
I never claimed to be a gifted engineer.

However, you will be glad to know I have decided to put a call out to some of the Open Hardware community and ask for their input. Quite frankly, that community has lots of engineers that know a crap-ton more than myself. If I can get any of them to contribute some time to fleshing out MS' kernel, we will all benefit greatly.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
No. Not overcharged. 4.2 is the limit set In the kernel. Its just filling up completely at that voltage. Typically you nestled voltages around 4.4 to be overcharged
[EVO 4G General] skylar.sutton:
Hey - quite using logic, reasoning, and education! They're not welcome 'round these parts.

(Thanks for providing a professional opinion on the matter)
[EVO 4G General] matt2053:
Sorry if that seemed snide.

Facts > Speculation, no matter how logical the speculation or the credentials of its source. That is the entirety of the point I wish to make.

If you are able to coordinate testing to determine one way it the other on this, that would be an extremely valuable contribution.

And THAT would warrant starting a thread with a title like this one has. :D
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
OP, just give up.

Most people in here are kids or teenagers who don't know any better. The consensus from them is: my proof of its saftey is my usage of it. It's the same reasoning used by crackheads before their bodies deteriorate to an unusable level or they actually drop dead from it. They want everything now and refuse to acknowledge any possible consequences.

I say let the idiots get weeded out just like in nature. Soon, rather than later, they'll lose that original extra 10% they love from constantly charging to 100%. And if one were to lose a limb, life, or house, their side would finally have "convincing proof" of its ultimate danger.
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
Science is speculation.
[EVO 4G General] -shift-:
open up a basics of engineering textbook. there's your data.

it's so much more apparent in this thread, sadly...

*facepalm*

+1

well put, award tour.

if only more people understood the depth of this statement...
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
Raiderinks doesn't even know what SBC does. He has never read the code and doesn't know how to. What we have is a battery kernel developed by a non EE and a reason why overcharging a battery is bad by an EE. There us still NO link. No one ever understands both sides and has taken the time to clarify
[EVO 4G General] matt2053:
Don't have one. Please feel free to share the chapter on SBC Android Kernels blowing up HTC batteries.
[EVO 4G General] matt2053:
This x 100!!!
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
SBC isnt a kernel its a battery mod, the kernel is by netarchy
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
Mod applied to the kernel. Its inside the kernel...
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
This is the absolute truth, although I would add to it. I know what SBC does based on the developer's (MS) description of it. His description of it indicates it is dangerous. Until he responds to my messages and or works with some other EE, we can't be sure if his description is accurate or not.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
I'm just saying the duty of an engineer is to get facts and knolwdge of the situation beforehand and THEN "go public"

By your logic. Since I know car wrecks are dangerous. I would start telling everyone not to drive a car. Without first looking into the safety measures in place.
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
Well it seems like XDA is banning SBC kernels until there are "facts and knowledge" proving it to be safe.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Sorry, but again, I have the facts as presented by the developer. It is his responsibility to accurately describe the operation of his system. As he has described them, they are risky. Considering he may not have a strong understanding of what he is doing, it is even riskier. Those are good reasons to warn people pending further investigation, period.
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
And apparently you believe your part of the enlightened few? I find all your posts reeking with an air of alleged superority that is overly obnoxious at best

The days of our lives XDA edition, puke
[EVO 4G General] CCallahan:
Just read through this whole thread and this is the one thing I can actually say I am 100% on. I have posted in many of these same threads and still can agree/disagree on many things.

It is true that if anyone has concerns with the effects of this charging method, the developer should be able to provide information and support, just as the rom devs do. Furthermore, testing with appropriate EE and/or other qualified members of the community should have been done before releasing to the masses. If this was done, then fine. Shouldn't be a problem to prove to anyone with questions that the method is safe or at least provide all the testing information upon proper request. The dev should also welcome further testing of the mod in hopes of making it better/safer.

For the record, I am not for or against the SBC mod. I have used it and liked the outcome. But I, like a lot of members, would like to see some further testing from qualified peeps, which will help everyone in the end.
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
Your not against it you just expect it to go through rigorous testing that no other mod or hack does. I am not against improving the SBC but the method and tone that it is being requested is embarrassing
[EVO 4G General] kamtsa:
Is this a fact that the SBC kernels use constant current (CC) at the end of the charge?

From my observation (Using Battery Monitor Widget app) the battery voltage stays the same while the current degrades slowly to 0. Looks to me more as a constant voltage (CV) mode which is the recommended charge completion mode for LIPO.
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
Interpret it any way you want. What I do know:

1) I'm not qualified to give a opinion on the safety/effects of SBC kernels.

2) There are qualified people giving professional opinions on the safety/effects of SBC kernels and most/all are against it.

3) Almost all who are for it offer nothing more than saying that their use is proof of it's safety or a quick rebuttal of: "Stop being a *****! OMFG!!".

Anyway, XDA is banning SBC kernels until there is legitimate proof its safety. I guess they don't want to risk being dragged to court because some kid burned down their parents' house. Time to prove this guy wrong. XDA is waiting.
[EVO 4G General] wuclan48:
This is a terrible analogy. Cars do not by their design cause wrecks. A mod that improperly charges a li-ion battery would inherently cause a malfunction. In your analogy the car really relates to a battery itself which is also not inherently dangerous. Misusing it, as with a car is dangerous.

Furthermore it's the duty of an engineer to get the facts right, to be CERTAIN on safety in particular before releasing a product to the market. On the other hand it's also his duty to sound an alarm if something that is already in the wild MAY cause injury.

Work on the logic.

Sent from the void...
[EVO 4G General] mrwicked:
Is there a download link to the stock HTC kernel #15 anywhere?

Thanks
[EVO 4G General] CCallahan:
There is no doubt that the SBC method has been attacked in numerous threads (some without warrant).

Not implying that it needs extensive lab testing. But, a standard beta testing in this case probably wouldn't be enough considering what causes might exist.

I have no idea how much testing was done before release but whatever it was should be available for anyone wanting to take the testing further. Which, would only help.
[EVO 4G General] CCallahan:
Find Myn's RLS5 thread post (in development) and click the paperclick....scroll down towards bottom and HTC #15 is in there.
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
I do not usually agree with you.

But I do here.

No question.
[EVO 4G General] ZachPA:
So here is my idea.

If kernels without the SBC battery mod charge to 100% and then turn off the charger until the battery drops to 90% again, why not limit the allowable drain to 95% or 97% instead of 90%?

With the stock kernels, the battery charges normally up to 100%, then the kernel allows it to fall to 90% before charging back up to 100%. So, when you wake up, depending on where you are in the cycle, the battery might be subject to a precipitous 10% drop. But if the kernel doesn't wait for 90%, instead waiting for 97%, your battery would be subject to only a 3% drop.

Yes? No?
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
all of that information is located in MS's github which the OP failed to even look at before posting this thread and has yet to report back any information based on that github. For all we know MS's mod does adhere to safety rules or it doesn't but instead of doing any due diligence we have "experts" and some may actually have real word experience to back their posts but their tact and angle are absolutely appalling instead of reviewing the github which has been kept up to date by MS.

i know exactly what you mean

OP, since you have had some time to look at the github what does your career experience tell you?
[EVO 4G General] mrwicked:
Thanks man
[EVO 4G General] NewZJ:
ms made a v8 kernel that does just that
[EVO 4G General] cowboyboats:
I have read through this entire thread and apperciate the wealth of knowledge displayed in it. That being said I'm a little disappointed that xda is forcing the removal of this kernel modifications. For the most part everyone is here because we want our equipment to look and operate they way we want. The thread as gone far and beyond to educate the end user to make a decision that best suits thier needs. Where should the line be drawn? Simply rooting your phone can brick it. Overclocking can damage the phone too. I'm not saying sbc is safe or dangerous but I like the freedom to choose. It's why I rooted my phone, removed bloatware and run aosp.

Sent from CM7 safely charging in a big flower pot
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
from the savage kernel thread
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
I am not a software developer by trade, so I have messaged MS to help me navigate his source, but at the moment, I haven't heard back from him. I can't honestly evaluate it without assistance from someone that knows kernel coding pretty well.

For all we know, MS' mod does adhere to safety rules, but his own documentation of it suggests otherwise.
[EVO 4G General] cowboyboats:
That is more in line with the spirit of the xda community. Thanks for the read, I had just checked and didn't notice any changes

Sent from CM7 via ginger XDA
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
And here is the point and what all of us that are cautious are saying about this.

You have an engineer that admits he can't read code.

Just like you have a programmer that maybe should admit he doesn't know everything there is to know about engineering when messing with engineering code.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Again, it is much more likely that the phone never charges to 100%, it just lies about it. If it did what you (all) keep saying, it wouldn't extend the cycle life of the battery very much at all. The way I read the graphs on my phone it looks like bump charging, not dropping it to 90% then charging up.
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
and to me this is what XDA is all about. Collaborating to deliver cutting edge solutions to power users and like minded people. Had that happened in a different tone (and your thread wasn't the first one to broach this topic) it probably would have not met any resistance. personally i would welcome folks with real world experience to help take the SBC to the next level applying strengths from all arenas, instead we tried to get more bee's with vinegar than honey
[EVO 4G General] Just_s:
Legit question

I have what I feel is a legitimate question regarding this topic. If I understand all of the back and forth correctly, it appears that the SBC mod allows the EVO to "top up" the battery close to 100% of capacity, where most kernels without SBC mod (including stock) allow to charging short of capacity (I've heard anywhere from 80% to 98%) to maintain the long term health of the battery. I think most people will at least agree on these points.

I have multiple batteries, which I use with my EVO. I keep at least one "topped off" at all times using a wall charger. There is always one battery in my wall charger, sometimes for over 24 hours consecutively. When I pull my battery out of the wall charger and place it into my EVO, I do not experience the "10% drop syndrome" that is well documented with the EVO battery (and others) charging inside the phone. Again, I believe most users will agree that these experiences are well documented, charge in phone, get +/-10% instant drop; charge in wall charger and get a minimum of several minutes up to an hour off charger at 100%. I use an SBC kernel, but I get basically the same experience on a non-SBC kernel when I swap out my battery with one from the wall charger.

The question is: if the above is accurate, why is it that few issues/concerns have been raised regarding the "trickle" charging of wall chargers? What is the difference?

I have used wall chargers for 15 years with Blackberries, iPhones, Androids and basic cell phones. The experience is the same every time, longer battery life with a battery charged via wall over one charged in phone regardless and independent of kernel.

I don't pretend to know the specifics to all of this information, but it seems logical that wall chargers replicate the effects found when using the SBC tweak or is it just coincidental? If it is the same process yielding these results, then why is there little mention of this overcharging danger in relation to these wall chargers?

I'm not picking a fight or choosing a side, here, just raising what I feel is a legitimate point. I strongly suspect that the cautionary tales/points about the "trickle" style of charging presented by SBC and other tweaks are meant to protect the companies/manufacturers/carriers from potential bad press/lawsuits rather than presented to protect the end users. If you have lived in the USA for the past 20 years you will agree that the proliferation of frivolous lawsuits has exponentially increased the cautionary rhetoric in regard to everything from coffee cups to car parts. I believe there is more caution than truth swarming around these battery issues/solutions.

I would love to hear from someone with the proper knowledge of these various scenarios. Specifically, why is it a concern to charge to capacity inside the phone, but far less concern when doing exactly the same in a wall charger?

*I realize that the term "trickle" is not used universally or consistently in reference to these situations, thus the quotation marks.
[EVO 4G General] freeza:
So because people choose to debate the validity of SBC damaging a phone/battery and choose not to believe the "EE" opinion[facts], it makes them kids, teenagers, idiots, and people who don't know any better? Love the open mind!
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
Nope.

Because people come in here and call him names and completely dismiss what he says because they think they know it all it makes them...."kids, teenagers, idiots, and people who don't know any better?"