yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
Im not trying to sound mean nor am I trying to insult anybody but, the fact that some of you think that you can take an instantaneous current reading (in mA) and convert that to mAh shows that you lack the technological know how to be trying to figure this out on your own. You are still discussing about voltage levels and how much current is being "overcharged." The whole point of the matter is that any current is going through the battery once it hits its "fully charged" point. Even 2mA is enough to be a problem because the flow of charge into the battery at that point is what causes the ion plating. This has been proven with articles over and over again. Once the plating reaches a critical point the battery will either be useless or will explode. This same plating also defeats the batteries capabilities to hold a charge. About the only thing usefull that you can try and test for is how fast you are degrading the batteries capacity, and with luck it will not explode or burn.

And considering what percentage of batteries fail by smoke or explosion in the wild the fact that even 1 out of just the people using this kernel has failed semi-violently after less then a month is very concerning.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
Its not the overcharge circuit. Simple test for that is as follows: does your battery still work?

If the answer to the above question is yes, then you havent tripped the batteries built in overcharge protection.
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
The threads that claimed damage to the battery via SBC have been proven to be baseless and suspect at best. They are beneficial because they got visibility to conduct research to ensure that they are as safe as they seem and is there room for improvement of modification
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
I'm still running sbc, because I don't believe its being over charged, or there is still something good about these kernels, it says 100%, Is there a way to test how full the battery truly is. If you watch the ma's numbers they start to drop all the way to 0. If the reason it stops charging is because it truly is 100% then that is perfect, we can't rule these kernels out just yet.

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!
[EVO 4G General] timdawgdentist:
I want to throw my log on the fire too.

log file that is..

myn's rls5

Newest Radios but 1.77 pri

Net's 4.3 cfs havs more smartass..... with sbc
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
extended battery I'm guessing?
[EVO 4G General] gpz1100:
If you guys upload graphical logs - analyzing them will be much easier/faster. I don't mean this type of log either :)

But something like this..

(click for full size)

This was done with the rom/kernel in my sig. Current vs time - each division on x axis = 10 min.
[EVO 4G General] timdawgdentist:
Yeah seidio 3500
[EVO 4G General] deallocate:
I'm using the cm6.1.2 rom with toast 2.6.34 wimax kernel, and it seems to charge from 95% to 100% faster than the sbc kernel - I see charges at 40-50 ma vs 4-10 ma at 99%. Also it stays above 4200 mv constantly (I do run pandora while charging), at least it has for the last hour.

For nimh in rc car batteries you'd charge the batts at a very high current so it would discharge quickly (for racing), and charge slowly for low current applications that you needed the max mah output (the key being mah is how long you can use that stored power, versus high amps being max power output at any given moment).

It may be the slower final charge helps the battery pack more usable mah (a good thing).

Instead of more sbc logs, htc kernel logs should be used for a comparison. I'd include mine, but with an aosp rom and custom wimax kernel, I don't think its a very good control source (since it to holds the voltage over 4200 mv while using the phone, I'm not sure if its the same as htc charge method?).
[EVO 4G General] deallocate:
I just charged my wife's EVO (bone stock, no root, nand unlock, no custom anything). I used the original HTC battery (we have others), HTC provided cable, and HTC wall adapter. Attached is the battery_history. It seems to indicate the mv stays above 4200 mV when it reaches 100% as well.

Based on this, if the assumption is the htc kernel is suppose to be doing something different than the SBC kernel that may cause something bad in the SBC kernel, it is difficult to use the battery monitor widget reading above 4200 mv as proof of something bad if it also happens with the stock kernel.

Not suggesting there is or is not a problem, just that holding the voltage at or over 4200 mv doesn't appear to be done in the just SBC kernel according to the battery monitor widget.

Just my .02
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
The way to test if it is fully charged is when the charging current drops below a certain value. That value is not 0mA. It is in fact when the current required to keep the cell @ 4.2v drops below 3% of the rated charge current.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_ion

Stage 1: Apply charging current until the voltage limit per cell is reached.[51]

Stage 2: Apply maximum voltage per cell limit until the current declines below 3% of rated charge current.

Considering the rated charge current seems to be below 900 mA I'll use that as an example. 3% of 900mA is 27mA. Therefor the battery is considered fully charged long before you hit 0mA on the charger. From the logs I have seen it would seem that even the stock HTC charging cycle pushes it a little further than that, so even stock the batteries limits are being pushed slightly.

Measing the instantaneous current once per minute for an hour will give you a very rough average in mAh. The problem is the current draw on our phones varies greatly depending on what processes are running, if the radios happen to be being used or if the screen is on at the particular instant the current is measured. This can render the reading extremely skewed thus requiring a much much shorter interval than one minute. Even at one second the data could be skewed but the margin for error would be a lot smaller. Remember, everything that uses power in the phone with the exception of the screen can change how much current it is drawing from nanosecond to nanosecond.

Now my thought on calling it overcharging is this. To be overcharged you have to be giving the battery more charge than it can hold. This kernel isnt neccessarily forcing the battery to take on more charge, however, it is allowing the current required to run the phone to pass right through the battery while its in a state that the current flow can damage it. It is ok to let the battery hit max and then let it discharge (ie how our phones work) or to let it hit max and then stay there with no charge or discharge applied to it (how stand alone wall chargers work)

The stock kernel has a safety measure built into it where it will not let it do stage 2 charging for more than an hour to ensure that the plating that can occur in this cycle is kept to a minimum. The SBC kernel defeats this SAFETY MEASURE and allows stage 2 to continue indefinitely.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
You are correct in saying that just looking at the voltage is not enough. When the battery hits 4.2v it is actually usually around 70-80% charged. While going above 4.2v will damage the cells very quickly (and trip the overcharge thermal disconnect, killing the battery irreversibly) SBC kernel is not doing that. It is just allowing current flow of any kind after the battery is fully charged which can damage it.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
I had another thought that may help your understanding. The value you see on the logs for current (in mA) are a gross total. Meaning that its both charge from the charging circuit and discharge from the device itself. So if it is saying it is at 0mA, the charging circuit is putting the exact amount of current required to run the phone (anywhere from 60-500 mA) through the battery.

Here is what I mean:

Phone current draw= -60 mA

Charging current = 500 mA

Current you will see on the log = 440 mA

Phone current draw = -60 mA

Charging current = 0 mA

Current you will see on the log = -60 mA

Phone current draw = -60 mA

Charging current = 60 mA

Current you will see on the log = 0 mA

Just becuase you are seeing the current go down to 0 does not mean that the charging circuit is not still giving a lot of current to the battery.
[EVO 4G General] shoobshoober:
I've been using the sbc kernel since it came out and the last 2 weeks the battery would stop charging randomly. this happened twice. never had any heat problems. finally today the battery no longer works. no big deal though put in new battery and everything is still fine. but i have switched to kernel #15 now, battery life was great while it lasted!
[EVO 4G General] evohack99:
I charged my phone all night and half aday, I can put up my log of what iv gotten. No fires btw..

Sent from my netarchy_toast, froyo beast of a machine evo!

edit.. okay so after using this kernel i havent noticed a big increase in batt life. i dont know if you all noticed it at the beggining or the end of the batteries charge.. but it seems that it has dropped to half rather quickly no real change in length of battery longevity.
[EVO 4G General] shoobshoober:
just an update. my "dead" battery came back to life again after letting it sit around for a few hours. gonna keep testing with sbc and see how it does
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
You might just want to cut your losses and get rid of that battery
[EVO 4G General] shoobshoober:
probably the best thing to do haha but i think i have an idea as to why it died. just going to play around with it for a week and see if my theory is correct. i got other batteries sitting around so it shouldnt be a biggie unless the battery blows up my phone :(
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
I would like to repeat that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a battery fire with a stock charger.

This rant is now over. Thank you for reading. Move along...
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
:rolleyes:

Give me thirty seconds with your charger and I bet I can get your battery to catch on fire.
[EVO 4G General] SouthernEvo:
Im not sure if it the SBC Kernel I have but my charging logs dont look like anything that has been posted on here so far in this thread , Tonight I will install the battery monitor widget and post a log . Generally my phone will charge to 100% at which point the MA's will start decreasing . It will hit 0ma and sit there for maybe two mins if that then start coming up with -2,-4,-6 and do that for quite some time before it goes back to 0ma again . This will cycle though out the night . Im using a Seidio 3500 , so Im going to assume my battery is charging then discharging lightly before it tops itself back off again . I have never hit 0ma and had the phone stay there for long periods
[EVO 4G General] shoobshoober:
I doubt that matters.

from what I understand by reading the thread. any low +/- ma's just means a constant current is supplied to your li-ion battery while it is fully charged. which is a not very good for the battery

this is why with the stock battery if you dont have sbc once you hit 100% you'll get very large -ma's and then large + ma's hence the bump charging.

im no engineer though. maybe i read their stuff wrong
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
It seems you think the battery has to get the energy for a fire from the charger, when in fact it already has the energy built up in the cells. What is supposed to make it impossible is the charging mechanism stopping the charge long before it hits that critical point. Which is what the SBC kernel does not do.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
You hit it right on the head there. This is exactly correct.
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
What I enjoy about XDA is the information exchange along with accomplishing things.

I think you are using strange language. Yes I think the energy for the charger is needed for the fire, else the battery packs could self destruct spontaneously.

I understand the battery pack as a high energy device. It is perfectly safe unless its internal temperature is raised over its flash point. At that point it will self sustain its own combustion.

Please do not view this as personal attack. In the NAME OF SCIENCE! (lol) I am calling you out on this. Tell you what you want me to put up for you to do this 30 second trick.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
Now you are getting it :)

If the battery develops an internal short due to metallic plating or becomes chemically unstable it's internal temperature could rise on it's own, without the need for something to heat it up.
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
Chemical reactions don't need an outside heat source, so no the charger is not necessary. Again high temperature is going to be a sign of failure, not the cause.
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
It is incredibly rude to edit another posters post to say something that was not said.

You said you only needed 30 sec. I am calling you out on this. I am taking your bet. I say this is not correct at best, a lie/fraud at worst. What more do you want me to do to call you out on this?

Many Combustion (i.e. Lipo fires) Chemical reactions DO require an ignition source. Often that source is used to get portions of the medium over its flash point.

Chemical reactions like freeing ions (a battery) obviously don't need an outside heat source. So we just cannot lump every chemical reaction together.

You seem to suggest that LiPO batteries are expected to ignite without any outside stimulus. I think the tens of billions that have not done so suggest otherwise.

But I await sources from you to the contrary...
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
I should have quoted haus in my post. As like ge said a short or chemical instability could be the catalyst for an exothermic reaction. I wasn't trying to suggest that the batteries would just spontaneously combust under normal conditions. But shorting out or plating isn't a normal condition.
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
1. Almost all of the tens of billions you are reffering to are not subjected to abnormal and abusive charging.

2. The outside stimulus is the trickle charging, which may cause plating, which will cause a short, which will cause a runaway exothermic reaction causing the materials to pass their flashpoint. This has been proven and is why it is well known and documented to not trickle charge li-ion or li-po batteries.
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
Trickle charging Li-Ions is stupid. It destroys batteries and wastes money. It MAY be a very serious safety issue. But lets not make a boogie man out of it.

Yes we know the dangers. In practice I have not heard of this type of failure in many years. There were a few events like this in the early '000's as RC's got their hands on them.

I have not heard of a single modern example of this, and am aware of several examples of people TRYING to do this with a modern battery and failing. Only after dumping several times the voltage and thousands of times the amps have they got Li-Ion ignition.

If you have a source for a modern battery igniting from a trickle charger I would like to see it. If not, it seems unfair to say it WILL HAPPEN.

And I am still waiting to know how to get a Li battery to explode after playing with the charger for 30 seconds...
[EVO 4G General] barnacles10:
even better...

:: popcorn ::
[EVO 4G General] z28marols1:
Requiring recent real world proof of a fire/explosion is a tall order considering ALL manufacturers know to not trickle charge a battery therefor out in the real world this doesnt happen. Its not untill just now someone has defeated that safety measure and a somewhat small group of people have been using it. In 1 month we have already had multiple reports of batteries failing, some permenantly, and one that I know of resulting in venting. So I would say if people continue to use this charging method its not a matter of if, its a matter of when will the other built in safety mechanisms fail due to wrongful charging.
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
So your commenting on the thread in general? Cause we all agree. I am confused because you started with...

There are videos posted in this thread of "real world proof of a fire/explosion." My point is these videos are NOTHING LIKE what this ROM does.

Right, so what this ROM does/USED TO DO is bad. Got that. But MY POINT IS...

A stock charger will not, never ever, impossible, can't, make a battery catch on fire. Remember there are several layers of protection. This ROM found a way through the weakest only.

And if you read my posts you would see I am not only calling BS on those who suggest it can, I am going further and asking for ANY example of a Li-ion/Li-Po fire using a stock charger. Hell you can even modify the stock charger.

But if you modify it by adding a car battery I am calling BS.

And my point is we should not exaggerate the dangers or minimalize the risks. Just tell the truth. And mayhap I am wrong about the stock charger. Then I will have learned something.
[EVO 4G General] AbsolutZeroGI:
You guys do know that li-ion batteries have been exploding for the better half of a decade right? Long before SBC kernels...hell long before Android. To blame the problem entirely on SBC kernels is like saying you crashed your car drunk driving before you had anything to drink. Seriously, Google it, you'll find stories dating back to 2002 of batteries exploding and killing people.

The problem pre-dates the blame that's being placed on the problem. Batteries melt down all the time.

Besides, all the SBC kernels have been taken down and the devs don't make/support them anymore. The anti-SBC people have won. Why is this still an active discussion?
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
You haven't looked at the dev forum in the last 24 hours have you?
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
Ohh wow, sorry, I had no idea you were that sensitive. No need to get emotional, it's nothing personal.

And actually those were your words, I just cut out the rambling so only the facts were left.

You're calling me out on this huh? lol You say it is "IMPOSSIBLE" for something like that to happen when it is never impossible. By you saying stuff like "A stock charger will not, never ever, impossible, can't, make a battery catch on fire." it only shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Just remember there are never any absolutes with technology, Murphy's law is always in play.

But, since you asked you could do a few things to it in a short amount of time. You could just run 120V straight from the wall to the battery, or hell, cut the wires and plug it in a 220 socket. Are you confident the ICs inside the batteries were made to handle that? Or how about reversing the polarity, simple enough to do and batteries love it when you do that to them.

Satisfied or are you going to start nitpicking in hopes that you can drag it out till everyone forgets what you said?

I agree, batteries have been blowing up and catching on fire with the stock chargers since the beginning. That's not to say sbc kernels are as safe as the stock kernels though.
[EVO 4G General] AbsolutZeroGI:
I had not, I was in there 2 days ago getting MikFroyo's update and haven't been in since. Glad they're back up. If MS intends to continue to support it, you bet your ass I'm going back to it, no more of this ending my day at 8% battery life garbage.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, much appreciated :)

Of course not...but as Phandroid so eloquently put it, we're a hacker site (no seriously, they said it, I felt proud). Nothing we do is 100% safe and everything we do has the potential to turn our beautiful $500 laptop-replacing, super awesome cell phones into $500 full time paperweights.

I just don't believe this should have gotten so much attention. A simple "Hey, there's a possibility this can happen and here's why. Be careful if you use it" would have sufficed, but this whole fear-mongering witch hunt (as I've oft described it in other discussions) is completely unneccessary. No one should ever tell someone to not use something because it's potentially dangerous in these forums as everything from rooting to installing a custom splash screen wrong can mess things up pretty bad.

A word to the wise is unneeded, it's the stupid people who need the help.
[EVO 4G General] H-Man 38:
I love the kernel ,It works for me and if i have to buy another battery in a year..Oh well...

Its the best thing to happen since white bread!!!lol
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
U know white bread will kill u faster than SBC... we need a whole grain version of SBC...
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
And I am sure some will only buy it if it is organic
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
Lol.
[EVO 4G General] nabbed:
Here you go. The x axis is the number of seconds since the beginning of the year.

source - http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=10640913&postcount=421
[EVO 4G General] wuclan48:
It's slices bread, not white bread.

Sent from the void...
[EVO 4G General] LargePrime:
No problem, no harm done. Apology accepted.

You have a point. But the point was about a stock charger charging a SBC kernel not catching on fire. So I will put this in the category I mentioned about adding a car battery and call BS.

But we agree that the absolute of physics applies. There is just not enough energy in a stock charger to set a phone on fire. So it's all good.

Exactly. And note that phones are in a different boat than laptops. Far more surface to volume in the battery makes for much more cooling, and much less charging energy.

Thanks for the pleasant chat.
[EVO 4G General] BIGDINOG:
Its "sliced" bread, not slices bread.......

Sent while riding an SBC kernel, while eating and SBC Kernel sandwich.
[EVO 4G General] SamXp:
Ok so after reading this thread, I'm no longer comfortable running an SBC Kernel. How do I switch back? I'm running CM7 RC1 with a kernel from this thread. Do I just reflash CM7 to get rid of it, or are there other options?
[EVO 4G General] Bamba1260:
I'd like to say that I have been using SBC kernels since they came out and the only side effect I have witnessed is a gain in battery life. I've used it on the stock battery, cheap ebay batteries, and a mugen 4500mah battery. Nothing bad has happened to my little Evo. No decrease in life after prolonged use, doesn't get to warm, certainly no fires. Me and SBC are inseparable friends.
[EVO 4G General] Techronico:
+4500
[EVO 4G General] NewZJ:
+4501

10char
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
+4502

But to get rid of it you would have to reflash the rom or kernel without it.
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
FWIW, I recently killed a battery on a SBC kernel while charging over night. Whether or not it's due to the kernel, I don't know.
[EVO 4G General] Bamba1260:
I'd be reluctant to blame the kernel. My phone is on the charger from 9pm till 5am every night. Sometimes over 12hrs on the weekends (if im to lazy to wake up haha)
[EVO 4G General] lopezpm:
Same here. I charge overnite with no issue.

Yeah boi! Sent from my Evo
[EVO 4G General] mutant13:
Been using since came out, great battery life, charge over night every night... Want better battery life use SBC !!!
[EVO 4G General] grungbuk:
I'm another who has used since it came out I charge over night, and its usually on the charger the whole weekend.

it has never given me any troubles, my battery life is awesome, it never gets hot.

The only problem I have with it is its not standard lol

Sent from my CM7 Supersonic
[EVO 4G General] Just_s:
I may as well throw in here too to keep this "has been" thread and argument alive. :D

I have run SBC since about a week after it emerged on XDA and though I have tried numerous other kernel types, I always come back to an SBC beauty!

I have had zero battery or phone issues, no phone/car/forest/athlete's foot fires, still using the same three batteries I have used since June, all still holding charge fine, no birth defects, gout, alien abductions or seismic tremors. In fact, everything about SBC seems to be perfect except for the paranoia it stirs. Of course, I do find that my tinfoil hat sometimes loses reception due to the sheer power of SBC, but that is to be expected.
[EVO 4G General] w84mike:
ROFLMAOOOOOO! Yes - +1 to this. Adjusting tinfoil hat now.;)