yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G General] chocoboi:
I used sbc for a while and for some reason my phone would get really hot after heavy usage. I also had the issue where my phone would randomly reboot. After removing sbc I haven't had a single reboot issue. I dont want to put a damper on the kernel. I got a full few extra hours on the kernel. But I am not ready to risk my phone while it is still on warranty. I do miss the extra hours of usage though.
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
Lol thats the first i ever heard it made someones phone hot... im 99.99 percent sure that had nothing to do with sbc.

Edit: Just reread that... Really hot after heavy usage? :rolleyes:
[EVO 4G General] NewZJ:
I'd rather risk it while it has a warranty than after
[EVO 4G General] JaiCameron:
I'm just going to leave this here
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
Yea because every evo is the same and reacts the same way to sbc. :rolleyes:

Any phone could have an issue with any given kernel that someone else won't have.
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
if sbc was causing the battery to get hot... its time for a new battery. He said his phone got hot during heavy usage... thats not abnormal in any way for any kernel...
[EVO 4G General] Bamba1260:
Indeed. For example, before I was shown the light that is SBC, i was on a regular kernel and my phone got really hot whilst playing robo defense. Like, hurt to touch hot.
[EVO 4G General] w84mike:
Another SBC-related death! And the bodies and fried batteries continue to pile up. Will America ever learn?!?;)
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
True, my phone gets really hot just when I have terrible signal, but he also said reboot issues popped up and went away. I was more criticizing that you said sbc could not have caused his problems. It's very likely that it could have given his phone issues, for the same reason some people can over clock their phones higher than others.

If I use kernels a b and c, and b gives me issues a and c don't, ther kernel and my phone don't get along. Doesn't mean kernel b is going to give you the same issues, just has to do with the tolerance differences in the hardware.
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
yes... sbc only affects the way a battery charges... the rest of whatever kernel it was could make his phone abnormally hot, but not sbc. It is a type of charging... The voltage going through when it goes to trickle is very low, and hence why the phone should be cool. if it is making your battery hot, it is time for a new battery because it is probably failing...
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
Ah ok, i get what your saying now. Yea just the charging part shouldn't affect things like reboots (unless they happened on the charger) and running hot. When you said sbc I thought you meant the kernel itself, not just the charge part.
[EVO 4G General] patass:
General question - My batter hit 50 celsius the other day. It was on a windshield mount, gps, 3g, and bluetooth on. Playing music, displaying google maps. I noticed when I got home and took it all apart and let it cool off. It still occasionally will hit 45. I'm using Netarchy Toastmod - 4.3.2-cfs-nosbc-havs-less. Also after reading this thread I'm thinking of flashing the SBC version of the same kernel. I'm on mikfroyo 4.5 on the evo. Any comments?
[EVO 4G General] Necrosan:
SBC =

Shortens

Battery

Capacity

And please, read the OP's post twice people.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out you're hurting your Lithium batteries.
[EVO 4G General] scott951:
I use a sbc kernel and never had any problems i think its a prank
[EVO 4G General] cruise350:
SBC forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You chumps can suffer through bad battery life if you want, but my SBC kernel keeps me powered all day long with no ill effects. The OP is crying wolf and jealous he doesn't have the balls to make his phone work as good as mine does. All claims of SBC kernels wrecking their battery or phones are 100% FALSE and are caused by other issues with the users phone or battery. To blame the kernel is completely and utterly Stupid with a capital S.
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
Lets let this thread die with dignity
[EVO 4G General] exabrial:
With all the hoopla about this, why don't the SBC guys put a small safety margin in? I know they want to get maximum possible battery outta everything, but instead of charging max voltage, why not just back it off a few hundredths and save the debate?
[EVO 4G General] aimbdd:
wouldnt make a difference.
[EVO 4G General] ccossin:
I don't care if it has dignity or not, just let it die. lol

This has been a telepathic transmission from the Outer Limits
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Agreed. I should have PM'ed him first, but I at least wanted to give the curious people a baseline understanding of how their battery works. It plays such a critical role in device operation, it pays to know a little bit about it.
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
even with the "jar" draining, keeping it at full for extended periods of time would weaken the jars integrity, as opposed to keeping it only 90% full. But that in itself would only shorten the amount of cycles it would go through. One day you would fill the jar and it would shatter, which would happen eventually anyway.

The bigger fear here is (at least to my understanding) that the constant pressure in the jar would cause instability in the other components that would lead to a catastrophic failure. So one day while the jar is filling (or not even) it catches on fire or explodes.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
The explosion is the danger. The battery dying earlier than you expect is just a decision. The manner in which is dies is the danger.
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Exactly (second paragraph only). Whereas with normal use, the baffles in the jar would eventually become clogged and the jar would simply lose its usefulness without blowing up.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
i've never seen a jar catch on fire and explode due to over pressurization.

i'm assuming the fluid is water...

it just doesn't seem physically possible.
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
...

/10char
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
Lol, ok, the jar is made out of matches sealed with wax in the joints and the water is now a low flashpoint fuel.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
that was a joke...

but this analogy does feel like it's getting out of hand.
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
But isn't the fact that people are using these kernels because they use their phones to the point that they can't keep a charge on their battery the whole point of the discussion? From what you are saying I get that if I use a SBC kernel and charge my phone for an extended period of time without using it I'll damage my battery. So? I don't do that. Who does? What are the risks to the average user I think is what the whole debate is about. No?
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
i don't think that could ever hold 10bar. unless the sides are fairly thick and we had a way to keep the lid on. supposing it has a lid, if not it would be considered a vessel.

are we assuming this is an average shaped/sized jar? what is its volumetric capacity?
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
But where is the constant pressure? Do you not use your phone?
[EVO 4G General] raiderinks:
That would only be true if we had quantified engineering data that defines extended. Or in other words, if we had data that told us what was too long on the charger. We do not. We don't know how manufacturing tolerances play into it. We don't know anything that we need to know to make sure it is safe.

But I guess I am working on that.
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
Ok. So show me how under normal usage explosion is a danger. How is my battery going to overcharge to the point of explosion under normal usage?
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
as someone else said the analogy is getting a bit out of hand, but unfortunately no analogy is perfect, especially with one comparing material strength to an electrical circuit and electro-chemical device. But to go along with this post:

The constant pressure is from not allowing the battery to discharge down to 90% while on the charger. keeping it full is damaging the amount of charge cycles its going to be able to do, even with regular use. This is the best case scenario (short of the SBC kernels not doing any damage), and if thats all thats happening no one is likely going to notice or care with how often people change batteries or even their phones.

The bigger worry is that the constant higher voltage applied is going to cause a circuit to malfunction, like the protection circuit; or is going to cause instability with the chemical reaction that happens inside the battery.
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
I think SBC touched my penis
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
wish my wife was an SBC kernel...
[EVO 4G General] Award Tour:
So shortening the overall health of the battery is pretty much guaranteed with SBC kernels? If so, it makes me wonder how quickly and by how much the life is shorten. If it's significant it'd probably make the short term gains a negligible overall gain unless you plan on constantly buying batteries.
[EVO 4G General] xlGmanlx:
Haha spoken like a true husband
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
So what you're saying is there is no data to suggest anything either way?
[EVO 4G General] freeza:
lol, I wonder why other OEMs can manage to charge a battery just fine, and HTC can't because it's a danger.

example, my mogul held at 100% similar in length to what sbc does now. it was only when the touch pro/diamond came out that I started hearing complaints about batteries going down to the low 90s immediately after unplugging. so I guess HTC was endangering us all before that period, then suddenly made a discovery about battery charging and incorporated it into all new devices?
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
exactly, this same discussion has been going on for like a week in many different threads. never concluded.
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
Again I ask... Who does that? Who runs their phone and is always above 90% charge and always on the charger? I don't consider that "normal usage ". I consider that weird. :eek:
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
Damn. All its doing for me is extending my battery life. Wtf? :eek:
[EVO 4G General] freeza:
I do! and have been since forever. batteries are holding up strong.
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
K weirdo. :p Thanks for the supporting data anyway!
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
That's not what I'm saying, im saying while on the charger keeping it charged at its max voltage while charging is likely going to make your battery die quicker than the way it charges normally. Not that normal usage is always 90% plus on the charger
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
Damn.... Gotta go. Batt's down to 56%! Time to ignite this here time bomb. See y'all in the am..... I hope. :p
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
Damn. Almost made it out. :rolleyes: k. Granted for the sake of argument. So? How is that a danger to me.... the average user.
[EVO 4G General] scooter185:
That's not the part those of us who are concerned are worried about, as that effect is not that bad. The bigger concern is the constant voltage will cause instability inside the battery and cause catastrophic failure
[EVO 4G General] joshua_:
There seems to be a false claim that there are two equally-correct sides here. This isn't true. One side -- that SBC is potentially damaging to phones -- is supported by fact, as mentioned by the OP, and a few times by myself in other threads. The other side is supported by hope and prayer. I have seen a very compelling argument not to use SBC; where's the compelling argument for its safety?
[EVO 4G General] Undef:
Consider a spherical cow...
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
I think your concerns are well documented. What's not is data to support them. That's what I think the average user is looking for.
[EVO 4G General] DrRyder:
Now see here. You don't even know what you're talking about. You're probably the 3rd person now that's gone off spouting that these kernels are bad.

1. You're making assumptions as per your quoted statement. You apparently haven't even looked at the kernel code and seen what it actually does.

2. I've used it over a month since it started and not had ONE problem. No excessive temperatures and when checking voltages, it was never over 4.2V. Highest was about 4.125V.

3. Another person has provided PICTURE proof that there are hardware chips in the Evo batteries to prevent overcharging.

You sir, have no idea what you're talking about. My phone is sitting right next to me at room temperature and has been for hours.

It's simple...

IF THE KERNEL MAKES YOUR PHONE HEAT UP MORE THAN USUAL, DON'T USE IT.

Why try and scare people? You need to go back to the drawing board/school/whatever and research this kernel more so you can know exactly what to talk about instead of assuming.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
lol

10char
[EVO 4G General] GadgetMonger:
Myself and all those who use the kernels are the "compelling argument" for its safety. You have theory... I have hands on experience. If phones where blowing up I think we'd all hear about it.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
I'm still confused about something, when charging a li-ion battery how does the second phase work?
[EVO 4G General] DrRyder:
What MS said about how the charging current changes from before you hit 90% to after.

Before 90%, it charges in high numbers. Close to 600. When it reaches about 90%, the current drops to half that and just keeps going lower. Since the phone in idle uses about 60-120 mA, the charge is barely more than the discharge which is why it takes longer to get that last 10%. Now, when it reaches 0mA, the voltage should be at or about 4.2V and then the charger turns off and you start to see negative mAs. I had this happen twice earlier so I unplugged and plugged back in to get back to 0mA.

Now, when the voltage reaches a certain number and the charger is plugged in, the charge will kick back up and charge back. The main difference in this kernel and a stock kernel is this:

The stock kernel will charge to 100, turn off the charger and wait until it hits about 90% before turning the charger back on and going back up to 100%. This is why when you unplug the phone, your battery meter will drop to the mid- to low-90s in a matter of minutes. That's the meter catching up with the actual percent and which is why people on stock kernels have to wipe battery stats to sometimes correct the reading.

The SBC kernel will charge to 100, turn off the charger but keep doing a bump charge to keep it around the maximum voltage of about 4.125-4.2V which is NOT overcharging.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
So the voltage reaches 4.2V when the battery is 100% charged or before then?
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
i've posted this in all the other threads talking about SBC... no one seems to listen. i'ts my understanding that once the voltage of 4.2 is reached it applies a float charge on the battery. (not trickle like most people say). Float charging only adds a small current after the maximum voltage desired is reached. we see this in our logs using the battery monitor widget. the 4.2V maximum was set by MS in the kernel code.

From Wikipedia

so its my understanding that if we keep the voltage constant well inside the battery specs that we can apply this float charging method forever with no adverse affects. that is if we keep an eye on temperature. that being said, it's confirmed that this will shorten battery life overall, but we still don't know by how much.

also try the Wikipedia for trickle charge. it might clear up the confusion. it's fairly clear to me the charging method in SBC is VERY similar to float charging and not trickle.
[EVO 4G General] DrRyder:
4.2V is a full 100% charge. That's not overcharging. It's simply a full charge.

If you use a battery monitor and see that you are getting voltages higher than 4210V, then that means this kernel probably isn't for you.

The highest I've seen reported was 4230 and MS looked into that and fixed it so that doesn't happen. I don't get over 4.2. Ever.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
keeping in mind that the stock htc charge only charges to a lower voltage, and thats why we see lower battery life even if you are lucky to get it when its "Fully" charged. Hence the need to modify the charging method
[EVO 4G General] DrRyder:
Yeah. That too. I remember using non-SBC kernels having to turn the phone off, plug the charger in, wait for orange to turn green, unplug, plug back in, wait for orange to turn green over and over again to be able to get even close to a full charge. It was ridiculous and still had to wipe battery stats.

With this kernel, I can leave it on to charge and don't have to wipe the battery stats. I never have high temperatures. I never have any problems. The people that did, sorry for your luck, but if you're going to put a phone up to your face that's at 120-140 degrees, you probably deserve to have it blow up in your ear.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
sounds like a very manual and time consuming prehistoric version of SBC...

MS just created an easy way of doing that. hehehe. (kinda)
[EVO 4G General] DrRyder:
Nah. I was doing it on Netarchy's 4.1.9.1. Then I got the SBC version and no longer had to do any of that plug in, wait for green, unplug, repeat steps 1-3.

I didn't start using it until about version 3. Since then, I was hooked.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
If the battery is full once it reaches 4.2V then what is the purpose of the second stage?
[EVO 4G General] DrRyder:
Well, I'm confused now on second stages. Probably because you're referring to the OP and I didn't even read half of it before I called bull****.

All I know is that when it reaches 4.2V it's fully charged and the SBC has what "pardonmyownage" said. A floating charge that keeps it at or around 4.2V.

In other news, it's 3:49 AM now and I'm tired. So, I'll check back at this thread in the morning.
[EVO 4G General] pardonmyownage:
to fill up the wattage to the maximum at that voltage. then it float charges to keep it at 100% until its unplugged.

thinking of that, that is probably why people are seeing a very LARGE increase in battery life when its still at 100% is because the voltage drops after you pull it off the chargers so it has all the left over wattage. (thats just speculation though)
[EVO 4G General] JustRuin:
My absolute guess is that battery life will be shortened in proportion to how much you fully (SBC) charge it.

As in you will "use up" a certain number charging cycles by constantly doing full (SBC) charges.

Totally a guess.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
ohh, so you actually have no clue how li-ion batteries get charged then. :)

have a good night

Wattage is Volts x Amp so wouldn't that also drop once you pull it off the charger? Also, doesn't the current stay at full power while the voltage is increasing? If that was the case shouldn't it abruptly drop to around zero when 4.2V is reached?
[EVO 4G General] JaiCameron:
Blinded by science.......

Anyway, I'm loving my current battery life with SBC to give it up now. If it does pose a risk I'll respectfully take the twofaced makeover I might receive one day upon It's use.
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
ok, well if the battery is 100% fully charged once it reaches 4.2V (as Raiden89 says) then the incomplete log you have provided shows you have overcharged by 302mAh. If you were to go by when the phone says your battery is at 100% then you have overcharged by 32mAh

Give or take some once you take into account inefficiencies and the batteries rated voltage or whatever

edit: you're more than welcome to double check my math seeing as I'm half asleep right now
[EVO 4G General] mattykinsx:
I really do appreciate this write up.

I think it is important to note that MS is not an engineer.

He is a dev.

His expertise is in coding.

I'm not trying to down play his work but if an engineer, someone who actually knows the details behind how batteries work, say that this is dangerous...his knowledge would supersede someone that codes.

I don't ask my mechanic how to cut my hair and I don't ask my hair stylist how to change my transmission fluid.

I'm not trying to suggest anything about the SBC kernel itself with that analogy, nor am I trying to downplay MS's work, but that analogy is accurate for this situation.

I think, in this case, it's important to have both the engineer and the coder talking though. Because they are both kind of crossing each other, in this situation.

So, you're suggesting that these "SBC kernels" do NOT cause damage then?
[EVO 4G General] timdawgdentist:
I have read both sides of the story.... . I have been on sbc kernels since early development. My mV has NEVER gone past 4187 Never. So by all the rules here it has never been overcharged. I may be the only one. If so awesome. I would post a log... but then more discussion blah blah blah. I read as long as the voltage never exceed 4.2 that it would be fine. I also read the absolute limit of charge is 4.3 before it wrecks the battery. I am sure that chargers vary on the output. Fluctuations in power blah blah blah... Before this mod my 3500 was disappointing to say the least. I previously had a windows mobile touch. I also bought the seidio extended for that phone. That battery lasted forever. I actually thought after purchasing the extended for my evo that I got swindled. The battery life was already bad but the extended never really felt like it was charged all the way. I realize the evo and the other phone are not similar in any way, but this did the trick. I finally felt like the battery lasted like it was supposed to.

I realize that my situation could be unique and that my battery could fail at any time. However, I think that the majority of SBC users are having good luck with this mod. I think its more likely that the chargers could vary enough to exploit the possible problems with the "fix".

It's not for everybody. Lets face it you can get another battery for cheap. I also believe that the fatalities this mod has caused also has to do with the amount of charging you do. The stock battery is so feeble that I feel sorry for you guys having to be on the charger all the time. The phone isn't meant to be on the charger all the time.

$0.02

tim
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
Just curious about something, everyone keeps saying they are not over charging because their battery does not go past 4.2V but when you hear someone talking about how big their batteries are they always use mAh(mill Amp hours) instead. Like the Evo's battery is 1500mAh, etc.

Shouldn't we be saying our batteries hold 4.2V instead then?
[EVO 4G General] timdawgdentist:
Its late, I'm effed up. I can't tell if you are trying to point something out or trying to argue. I just wanted to post my "Personal" findings. Besides I don't have a mAh setting on my battery widget so how the hell would even post that.

And despite the fact that I have had much to drink I dont wanna have a pissing contest with anybody. Especially someone who has 1249+ posts.

tim
[EVO 4G General] fixxxer2008:
there still seems to be alot of debate over the sbc mod. im trying it again and while im not seeing fantastic battery life, it's better than a stock kernel.

so whats the overall concensious of it? is it safe to run or not? what about the desire folks? weren't they first to get this mod? have they been having issues as well?
[EVO 4G General] xHausx:
no pissing contest :) just trying to point out mis-understandings
[EVO 4G General] timdawgdentist:
I am no developer, coder, cracker, reverse engineer. Just a big fan of this phone. If anyone could tell me where to find the data... how to show how much of the mAh is being charged to I will. To be honest I feel that actually would be a better number to go by. If I knew my phone was at 1800 of 3500 thats like 50%. Nevermind I don;t know wtf im talking about. seriously

tim
[EVO 4G General] CheesyNutz:
Yea when my phone is on the charger its really never idol. I use it while on the charger only time its really "ldol" is when I sleep normally about 4 hours a night. With sbc i have not.experienced anything bad myself. Could be my phones really never left to sit for long periods of time

from my phone duh
[EVO 4G General] go4the1:
http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=906144

/thread