yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] digger1985:
Check out ilomilo to see what a properly programmed game runs on WP7. It runs just as smooth as any iPhone game.

We need to let devs get used to the platform to maximise performance.
[Windows Phone 7 General] lumpaywk:
ilomilo is the shiz i love it so much :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] Cruzer1:
You really need to see more iOS titles. I don't know what it is, iOS titles are noticeably smoother. While ilomilo is smooth, there is just something about games on iOS that make it look even smoother. (Fruit Ninja is a good comparison, if I hadn't seen that game on iOS, I really wouldve thought the version on WP7 was the smoothest a game could get).

Someone mentioned how WP7 has a fps limit of 30, I think that might be a logical answer.
[Windows Phone 7 General] davidebanks:
ive tried ilomilo and whilst its good its still not running at 60 fps ( or anywhere close to it.) seriously am i the only person who notices these things? i just feel a little bit cheated because i had Xtract for WM 6.5 on my htc touch diamond 2 (528mhz processor) and it is as smooth as anything that i have seen running on WP7 devices which are of course 1ghz. i really do hope that there is not a 30 fps limit on wp7, that glow hockey game is currently the smoothest wp7 game but it does of course have very basic graphics. so maybe wp7 just isnt capable.
[Windows Phone 7 General] alexpatrick86:
When i look at it, i see i got my Omnia 7 for £400-£450 unlocked, if i wanted an iPhone 4G i would have needed £700-800, so based on the hardware price difference we get a pretty good deal. IMO. :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] tbk21:
Give Microsoft and the developers some time. Most games like fruit ninja are just bad ported from IO's. Wait until angry birds which will be build from scratch, and than you can do a good comparison.
[Windows Phone 7 General] SiW73:
The 30fps limit is not in WP7 as a whole, it's in the XNA apps, which of course are mainly games. Silverlight apps do not have the 30fps limit, so some of the simpler games are silky smooth. I can only assume that the 30fps limit is there because MS and/or partner devs were having trouble reaching a solid 60fps on the current hardware, and getting a solid 30fps IS better than a fluctuating framerate in the 40s and 50s.

But yeah, we get back to "does it matter?" To some people it does, but I suspect not to the vast majority of people. I compare it to the 360 vs PS3 situation - the PS3 has a weaker GPU and that results in many cross-platform games running or looking slightly worse (rendering to a lower res, not having AA, 30fps vs 60fps, and so on) so for that reason I buy those games on the 360 because it bothers me, but it obviously can't be that big a deal for most people otherwise nothing would sell on that platform.

So don't despair! WP7 has solid games now, will get tighter games as devs learn the best tricks, and performance issues should go away with better hardware.
[Windows Phone 7 General] SiW73:
So true. I realize that not everyone wants their phone to be a gaming device, but I do, and to me WP7 leapfrogged Android immediately in that regard, hardware power be damned.

WP7 has the branding* and cohesiveness to clearly pull ahead as the gaming platform as long as the hardware catches up.

* And as an indie it pains me to say that, but the big names do carry a lot of weight with consumers. I don't like the preference the marketplace gives to Xbox Live titles, but if it gets my preferred platform into more hands, I'll deal with it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
Thought this would be relevant to the thread. Memory Management Modification explains why load times were slow.
[Windows Phone 7 General] hardcoreplur:
the first question i have is, are you comparing the iphone 3gs or iphone 4. because the 3gs is much close hardware wise to the wp7 standard platform than the 4
[Windows Phone 7 General] The Gate Keeper:
to be honest hardware wise, compare it to the iPhone 3Gs and Desire, but also to be honest, you should compare it to what it is up against and that is the iPhone 4 and DeisreHD.

But aye, in saying that, most WP can be picked up cheaper than the 4/DHD.
[Windows Phone 7 General] davidebanks:
I RECENTLY HAD MY FIRST REAL GO ON oops caps my friends desire HD and after hearing great things about it, i expected it to be the fasted phone around but as soon as i started swiping thorugh, i thought man this interface is laggy and no way where near as smooth as WP7. I really cant see what the fuss is all about, , if i wanted a laggy interface, i would have stuck with my old 528mhz htc touch diamond 2.
[Windows Phone 7 General] kabumm:
That's so true.

Everytime i get to use a friends android or playing around in some shops i get really angry while lagging through menues.

So i wouldnt even think about getting an android now after using wp7.

lags just make me really angry :D

and for a smooth interface i personally can take some disadvantages because for me wp7 hasnt such a MAJOR disadvantage which would make it a no-go for me.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Cruzer1:
Probably related to coding, but one annoying thing I've noticed with alot of the games on WP7 is the game tends to skip a frame, or jerk every second.... Might be hard to see by most, but after noticing it on one game, i started noticing it more on others.

Games that are pretty evident include:

* Retrospaced (The Start menu background animation its very evident, also evident in-game)

* Twin Blades (When running, it's noticeable in the background)

* Hamsta Rocket (Is noticeable on the wheel you're running on)

* Cluck It! (Very noticeable on traffic animation)

* Plan Bee (Noticeable in-game when bee is moving)

* iBlast (Noticeable when zoomed in, background animation, like leaves tend to skip)

* ilomilo (not that noticeable, but running long lengths, looking at the background (ground) animation, it does skip every second)

While it doesnt ruin the game experience much since most of the time you're focus isn't on the background animation, considering alot of games tend to have this issue is there a flaw in the XNA/Silverlight way of making games?
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
I've noticed it myself with apps, as well. But I think it has to do with the dev. Some apps are smooth as the UI. Maybe the majority of apps will smooth out as the system matures.

Most of it is setting up. Once the system has set up, it gets as smooth as WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] z33dev33l:
A phone without a GPU accelerated UI is not going to get as smooth as one does with a GPU accelerated UI, especially not with all the bloat kept on the screens in android. If you want android to run as smooth remove all your widgets and icons then try. You MIGHT get there.
[Windows Phone 7 General] geoken:
No, even then it would lag. I notice android lag when scrolling through any list, even the list in the settings menu which is just white on black with monochrome icons.
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
Wow. Incredible how Microsoft/its phone hardware makers think they can get away with this,

1st gen Adreno 200 was abailable in Q4 2008, on a 65nm process.

2nd gen Adreno 205 came out in Q4 2009, on a 45nm process.

3rd gen Adreno 220 came out in Q3 2010, on a 45nm process.

Microsoft ships WP7 in Q4 2010, and allows a situtation where it is coming out exclusively on 2 year old, 2 generations old hardware?

The idiocy of this is incredible.

(Information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdragon_(System_on_Chip) )
[Windows Phone 7 General] Cruzer1:
The first handset to feature the QSD8250 snapdragon was actually the Toshiba TG01, which didn't come out til around June 2009.

Microsoft most likely didn't have access to the newer version of Qualcomm's SoC when they started work on WP7. It shows you how long it takes to fully optimize an OS to run smoothly on a SoC, as why you see Android handsets with more powerful SoC not running as smooth as WP7 due to OEM's not spending much time for optimisations, also, even rooted Android handsets don't run as smooth so the OS is part of it too.

The difference between iOS' PowerVR chips and the Adreno 200 is only about 6million triangles/sec (28million vs 22million). I wouldn't be surprised if no game takes full advantage of iOS' hardware (maybe Rage, or Infinity Blade?).

A good example is Android, considering the Galaxy S can push out 90million trianlges/sec, no game that I know of looks as good or runs as good as those on iOS.

Remember, you can get a phone to make you feel good because you know of the power that lurks under the phone (even though no games/apps take advantage of it) that is, get an Android device. Or... you can get a complete phone that run's to it's fullest and has been optimised regarding both hardware and software, in that case, get an iOS or WP device.

I remember reading somewhere that the first update will bring in compatibility with the Snapdragon 7x30 SoC's (2nd gen) so that should fix your paranoia regarding the current crop of handsets ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
OK maybe these dates on Wikipedia aren't the relevant ones. Although you can do the development on samples, no need to wait for general availability. I guess I'm underestimating the difficulty of tailoring software to hardware. OK there are much more important software problems for WP7 to deal with, but hopefully eventually it can support hardware as it comes out.

The advantage of newer chips is not just speed, it's also power consumption. A die shrink from 65nm to 45nm should make a big difference.
[Windows Phone 7 General] OGCF:
Apps made with WP7 in mind are great. Blame lazy devs.

Sent from my Samsung Focus
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
You do know that a lot of IOS and Android games are the exact same don't you? Both take full advantage of the given hardware when pushed.

THE main reason for the advancement of chips.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Bjd223:
I think that most Android games are iOS ports, and from what I have seen, they usually run like ****. Also the Galaxy S has a GPU that pushes over 90 MTP/s and Android's UI on the SGS is obviously laggy compared to iOS and WP7 devices that are no where as powerful. I am pretty sure that 1. They use Java which sucks, and 2. the UI is not hardware accelerated in any version lower than Gingerbread.

As far as managed vs. unmanaged code. If you need as close to real time floating point number crunching as possible you can't beat unmanaged/C++ over anything really.

Anyway so the games will get better as devs figure out what works best, and as MS makes additional tweaks to the OS and the tools. Like the image assets thing; which took like 30 secs off the bejeweled launch time in a video I saw.

If MS wants to get in with the tech crowd they will have to add 'top of the line' to their supported chipsets. I for one bought the SGS because of the GPU performance because I know Gingerbread will have a hardware accelerated UI. I also know that someone will get it to run on my device here, so I don't have to wait for Samsung (because that will never happen).

I prefer Samsung SoCs (hummingbird, orion when it comes out; will have GPU that does 450 MTP/s supposedly w/ dual core). I hope MS adds support for them but I think they will stick with Qualcomm which means we are stuck with the 205 which is okay, or the 220 (80 MTP/s) which who knows when that will be in a WP7 device.

I don't give 2 ****s about gaming I want 2D/3D hardware acceleration in the UI and the browser. I design websites here and there and want to leverage some hardware accelerated HTML 5 on mobile sites.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Cruzer1:
What BJD223 said. I also notice how same games between the 2 shows how much better they are on iOS. I remember someone also saying how the sims runs a lot better on WP7 than on Android (I haven't personally compared it though).

The problem is games on Android are designed to run on lower end hardware, that's how developers make money by targeting the majority of the market, not just the high end expensive phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] z33dev33l:
Errr... hate to be the bearer of bad news but gingerbread doesnt have a hardware accelerated UI...
[Windows Phone 7 General] norgan:
i found the games to be ultra smooth, nfs and the plane dogfight games are just glorious and i had a mate comment that they could even be considered better than psp. good enough for me!
[Windows Phone 7 General] eternalemb:
+1. Not even Honeycomb will, it seems. According to the articles I've read on tech news sites.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Total lie. Each of those games are programmed for a specific chip. In lamest terms, a evo and a galaxy s will download to different versions but still the exact same game.

Nvidia is launching a gaming market for only high end devices.

IOS users experience the exact same problems as Android users on a lot of games.

The gaming area is where a lot lies are told on Android. People who don't have a clue just spouting BS.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Actually if you don't have correct 2d and 3d drivers to take off the cpu and load onto the gpu, the device wouldn't be really useful. It would be slower than 1.6. So it is there for 2.3 on up. Just not fully implemented due to all the different chip types.
[Windows Phone 7 General] OndraSter:
.. and that is problem with android - keeping backward compatibility. Why doesn't google simply say "from now on, we will run on GPU accelerated UI. Forget about 3 years old phones that have sucky hardware"? It will end up just like WinMo did, since MS didn't make the same sentence as I just wrote.

WP7 solved all issues simply by running ALL on GPU as much as possible.

I believe that all games run quite awesome on WP7, compared to Android's Qualcomm 8250 phones which are majority of right now (only SGS and DHD is sold here with something other than 8250 or <800MHz). And WP7 still pwns those phones with games that look better than the ones on android and run better. Why? They spent 2 years making perfect drivers for this platform.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Bjd223:
What no hardware Accel UI. Ahhhhh horse****!

Anyway not all game studios write device specific code. I have seen some Gameloft titles that only run of specific chipset/GPU combinations for this exact reason.

Anyway I'm sure they might run fine of other platforms, but it is a matter of what CPU and GPU extensions are avail on that platform and which they utilize. I for one have written some Android stuff with some 2D Accel. and I only used the most common extensions because I wanted it to run on as many devices as possible. My code was by no means device specific but it was as platform generic as possible to widen the footprint.

Also I have read plenty of studios say they 'port' iOS games to Android. Not sure what parts they means exactly. Image assets, actual game code, etc.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Cruzer1:
Well I'm sorry but games I've seen on both Android and iOS shows how much better iOS games are in terms of overall performance. Considering how the Galaxy S has a GPU 3 times more powerful than that on iOS, and by your rule, each game on the market has a specific version depending on what phone you have, shouldn't we be seeing mind blowing games on Android that leaves iOS games in the dust? Nope.

I don't deny what you say is correct, but why the horrible performance? Lazy developers getting tired of making multiple versions of the same game so it can run on a variety of hardware maybe? Whatever the reason, quality in Android apps are lacking compared with the competition.

I believe the Nvidia market is a good way of reducing fragmentation, kudo's to them, and hopefully developers take full advantage of the Tegra chip!

The only IOS users experiencing problems are people with an iPhone 3G and earlier due to an older and different GPU. But that phones over 2.5 years old.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Like I said lies. How does the SGS has a chip 3 times powerful than IOS? The exact same games runs exactly the same on both platforms. On Android your hardware must meet the games specs. Developers develop more for IOS because it is known for gaming. Android isn't.

The chip in the iphone 4 is made by Samsung. Almost the same in the SGS.

Every thread turns into a android ios bash.
[Windows Phone 7 General] nrfitchett4:
http://negativegamer.com/2009/12/15...0-app-milestone-still-no-good-games-in-sight/

really good article explaining why android gaming has problems:

http://www.tested.com/news/the-state-of-gaming-on-android-no-more-playing-around/374/

so maybe you think android gaming is where it should be, but alot of people don't agree with you. Graphics is still a problem with android as is using a java base that has to be converted on the fly by the phone.

How many android headsets can even run dungeon defenders or any of the 3d games?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Nice try. One article from 2009, and the other that doesn't mention 2.3 with its main points being gaming and media. IOS is leading the way sure, but Android is on the rise, gaming wise.

Please let's move forward from Android and IOS. By the way more than 20 million of these devices exist to play these games(800 mhz+ ).
[Windows Phone 7 General] Bjd223:
I have a WP7 (Focus), SGS (ATT Captivate) and an iphone4 for dev and they all have strengths and weaknesses. No need to bash any of them. But I have noticed that devs seem to build for iOS first and then Android is an after thought.

http://androidandme.com/2010/07/news/galaxy-s-lineup-leads-the-pack-in-android-gpu-benchmarks/

Almost all 'top of the line' devices have a GPU that renders ~20-30 MTPs. The GSG is @ ~90. Even the next Snapdragon GPU will be slower @ ~80 MTPs and it is not even out yet. The Hummingbird GPU is well above the iphone and completely smashes all the WP7 w/ Adreno 200's in them. The GPU in the SGS is made by Samsung & Intrinsity (which funny enough is owned by Apple).

Games do not run the same the load times on the SGS are very fast. If the devs wanted too they could push the envelope much further on the humminbird devices.

Humminbird GPU pretty much dominates all Android devices. Every game I ever tested ran at the vsync max of 56 fps (SAMOLED can not do higher than 56 Hz refresh rate). Obviously these games were not made for the SGS or they would tax it more. They were designed more generically to cover more devices, which is okay. iOS only has one device to worry about so the devs can easily test the games and optimize for the hardware. This is very hard for Andriod.

For example the SGS phone is fast, but Samsung insists on using rFAT filesystem and it makes the phone lag pretty bad sometimes. With so many different NAND types and stupid OEM's, and RAM speeds, and other hardware and software decisions, it is very hard to test and optimize code accross so many devices. This is one of the reasons people talk about fragmentation, it just makes things harder.

Anyway, iOS seems to have many more game developers because that is where the money is at right now. The more Android enforces minimum requirements and fundamental platform minimum requirements the better off they will be from a development stand point.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
Guys, just a heads-up on Chickens & Vixens. This is the Angry Birds for WP7. It needs a little refinement, but the gameplay is there and intact. This game, alone, has the potential to sell WP7 devices.
[Windows Phone 7 General] jaraya13:
I think the author of this thread is wrong.

All my WP7 games run very smoothly. For example, Need for Speed runs amazingly on my Samsung Focus. But I saw some videos and in fact the Focus is faster than the HTC Surround.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I don't see much, if any, difference in game performance between my previous device, iPhone 4, and the current Mozart.

That being said, there's nothing available for WP7 currently that would strain the hardware really. Maybe Harvest, but it runs quite smoothly. All the casual cartoonish crap seems to be perfectly fine all the more.
[Windows Phone 7 General] davidebanks:
The thread states that wp7 games are not as smooth as iphone games. wp7 games are reasonably smooth agreed, but not quite as smooth as iphone games, a lot of people dont seem to see this but fi were to compare, i would say its like watching two games the same running on different hardware one runs at 30 frames per second and the other runs at 60. they games look exactly the same but one looks silky smooth...honestly, am i the only one that sees this?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Peew971:
Tears from my eyes, laughing too much :D.

Angry Birds is coming to WP7 anyway and probably with Live support. Chickens & Vixens is in beta and it shows. At least it's free but I deleted it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gluonyc:
I think this discussion is meaningless... Of course iOS games are smoother for all the reasons and testimonius stated... But hey! You can´t have a perfect apparatus for all the things a phone does nowadays... Iphone is better for gaming, Nokia N8 is the best cameraphone, SuperAmoled is the best screen... There isn't a best phone for everyone because everyone has its prioryties on a phone... for most people money is on the top of the list. I bought on ebay an LG optimus 7 new for 250€... for that price I have no doubt it's the perfect phone for me... even if WP7 has several flwas now.... Now you say that its gaming experience it rrelatively smooth.. .better than on galaxy... than it's superb for me!

if I played a lot I goud just buy a PSP2 and the price of it and my phone would be lesser than iphone 4

If I wanted to take professional photos I goud just buy a pocketable camera with optical zoom and 14mpx and the price of bouth things would be lesser that the price of N8

And don't take me wrong... I like to play a lot but on my PC and its not top of line but alltough I don't get the top of framrates I pass a very good time playing!
[Windows Phone 7 General] davidebanks:
this discussion isnt meaningless as the idea of the thread was to find out why wp7 games were not as smooth as ios games. ive found everyones info and input to be useful :)
[TG01 ROM Development] mirolg:
WinMo and ROM optimising Tutorials

Similar xda tread

TG01 ToolBox in progress

by LeTo08

please share here your knowledge, Registry optimising & improvement, tips & tricks
[TG01 ROM Development] mirolg:
Registry

Rotate Screen App with rotate settings for each App separately!

MMAPPlauncher WinMo StartMenu Replacement for each UI, gain 7 - 8 MB free RAM

miROM_StartMenu Replacement only for SENSE, gain 10 MB free RAM

Default InputMethod (select your default Keyboard when WinMo starts)

SPB MS THEME DROID PRO+ 2.2 by DOC3000 & MSKIP

palringo it comes with everything, msn, google talk, etc
[TG01 ROM Development] EVEALEX62:
Nice thread my friend ;)
[TG01 ROM Development] leeston2379:
Nice work miro,

I'll try to come back and edit this post with some useful information.

Useful Links.

Chef Central - This link provides much information about rom cooking for winmo

My cooking tutorial for TG01.

Miros Radio changer.

Noksers TG01 ExtROM unlock

Useful Files.

HTC Photo picker - Working on the TG01 (helps when using album fix for sense with CHT)

Notepad2 - Better than notepad, has line numbering, good when checking buildos log.
[TG01 ROM Development] Nokser:
Hi mirolg

You remove ULDR section, this have to u more space in ROM ;)
[TG01 ROM Development] mirolg:
hey, thank you for this tip, bro! (sorry, my tnx-button limit today is already full)

where can find the ULDR section in ROM?
[TG01 ROM Development] Nokser:
Example:

[TUT] ULDR Removal for Elf/Elfins [ONLINE]

Remember this not working in tgtool, you must create system without this tool

EDIT:

You can also align the XIP sections, to save memory ;)
[TG01 ROM Development] mirolg:
ok. i see, it give´s still a lot more to learn :eek:

thank you, nokser :cool:
[TG01 ROM Development] Nokser:
No prob. Bro!! If you have any problem, then telll me, i give to you small support ;)
[TG01 ROM Development] mirolg:
thank you for your offer! one thing i know- it´s so good, to have YOU in our tg01 community, bro. :cool:
[TG01 ROM Development] mirolg:
posts 2, 3 and 5 will be continuos edit :)

AND i hope come NEW posts from you, too :cool: