yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
CuriousTech: It is disappointing! The primary goal for this research is to find a cheap standard size battery with at least a bit more juice then OEM. This goal is still illusive. Based on what you said Andida might not be as good as OEM neither. The only remaining battery with claim greater then 1500mAH is Mugen and 1650mAH Armani. Mugen is $38 and its capacity claim is still questionable. Currently, I don't know of reliable supplier for Armani battery

gohaha: one engineer can smell another a mile away ;) I read number of articles that claim lithium ion battery capacity improves/stabilizes after a couple of discharge cycles. All of those where consumer references that I believe target users of devices that need time to learn battery's capacity. All sources, that I read, that talk about pure properties of lithium ion batteries say that no priming is required: BatteryUniversity Also, from my own testing, I didn't see any measurable improvement between first discharge and following discharges
[Captivate Accessories] gohaha:
slvr00gt, that's a very useful review of Lithium-ion battery, thanks. That article mentioned that Lithium-ion battery dosn't need "prolonged" priming, I believe that refer to the property of battery cells inside the battery, not the whole battery. My understanding is, every lithium-ion battery on the market for consumer devices is equipped with a chip/circuit. A cell phone or laptop computer doesn't talk to the battery cells directly. instead it talk to the chip on the battery. So I think both the chip and device are learning the capacity together, mostly likely, the chip is the brain. I am not in the battery industry, so my guess can be completely wrong though.

I also don't believe there's any battery out there that has significantly higher energy density than the OEM battery unless there's a technology break-trhough. so my objective is to get a battery that can match OEM capacity closely at significantly lower price.

Also to a member's claim that China has no manufacturing capabilty than Japan or Korea for the high capacity battery. that's not logical at all. Both the best and worst product are manufactured in China. It's a matter of how much money you want to pay. I am sure if you pay the premium over the OEM battery, they can make a true 1600mah battery for us, but not a 3000mah standard sized one no matter how much you are willing to pay at this moment.
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
Article says:

Does not need prolonged priming when new. One regular charge is all that's needed.

My current impression is that circuit within the battery is the simplest possible potentiometer with power FET that disconnects battery outside pads from cells within the battery pack. I believe it is only able to sense low(2800V) and high (4300V) and thats pretty much it. In $1 ebay battery, it really can't be more involved then that.

You are absolutely right about chinese manufacturing. They produce the best and the worst and likely it is the same factory that does it. Overall quality depends on what the order calls for.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
slvr00gt: The Mugen isn't too bad. From my tests with the OEM showing 1554 on discharge, using the same paramaters the Mugen was 1561. Both had about the same cycles, so it's pretty safe to say it will be equal, just not the 100mAh over the OEM.

gohaha: There's really no chip in these. There are however, balancing circuits in multicell Li-Ion batteries which may be what you're thinking of. It's used to keep individual cells from overcharging/discharging and has a thermister on each cell to monitor temperature. Single cell batteries only need the thermister which is the center pin.

I just noticed dealextreme has 3 new i9000 batteries. One is $3 shipped, and the Genuine is $13.90. I'm not knocking China. They make cool stuff cheap due to environmental regulation mostly, which is kind of sad. But they're always a few steps behind in some leading edge tech like batteries and semiconductors.
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
What is your method for discharge testing? I remember reading about your charge tests ( Hyperion 720i ?? ) , but I didn't see anything about your discharge tests.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
It's the same Canon Hyperion. I just didn't want to go through the trouble of discharging. Oh, and it's an amazing charger that's made in China. :)

If you're interested, I'll try to keep these charts up for a month.

http://www.curioustech.net/andida.png

http://www.curioustech.net/mugen.png

http://www.curioustech.net/samsung.png

These were all at 300mA.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
It looks like I'm in error. Do you know more about the chip? I assumed they were still using the thermister method, but the resistance on these is a fixed 1.5K so that can't be right. Is the protocol anything like the Dallas DS2436? I want to make a quick interface to play around with it.

It appears to have a thermister, Mfg ID, charge counter, ADC for volts, and extra data storage.
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
While goggling some time ago, I found this info for other Samsung batteries ( it is probably still the same as our battery ) Middle pin is called BSI. It is not thermistor. It is resistance encoded battery capacity indicator:

http://www.cpkb.org/wiki/Samsung_AB463446BU_battery_pinout

china1500_1 battery that I tested has internal chip. I know it for fact, because it shut itself off at exactly 2800mV. I don't know about other batteries. They didn't shut themselves off at 2700mV and I never discharge them beyond 2700mV to find out. I am fairly certain that none of the 3pin Samsung batteries can communicate their current status ( charge/discharge profile) to device
[Captivate Accessories] gohaha:
I am sorry that I can't provide further technical details about those chips inside cell phone batteries, as I claimed I am not working in that industry. But one thing I am certain that many Li-Ion batteries for laptop and DSLR have complicated chips that monitor the health of the battery. For example, the latest generation Canon DSLR battery has chips record pretty everything of the battery and communicate the information back to Camera. Of course one of the purpose of those chips are to defeat third party manufacturers.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
OK, that makes more sense being different model batteries have different resistances. All the ones I have for the Captivate are 1500 ohms which just happens to coincide with 1500mAh. lol It's probably just a resistor. I think the thermister was a better idea being they can tell the phone it's 1500 no matter the true capacity.

I've never seen the sense FETs either. It's probably a simple zener switched MOSFET but nice to see it used in the cheaper batteries, but the phone shuts down at 3500mV so it's might be overkill.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
Yeah, I think you're right. They're following printer cartridge chips. That's where they make most of the money, so make it harder to refill or buy cheaper ones. :mad:
[Captivate Accessories] captirwin:
Very Interesting, Thanks...:)
[Captivate Accessories] RDI:
So, after all the testing, is there any generic battery you can recommend as a good deal or hopefully better that the factories battery?

Sent from my Samsung Captivate with Perception 10.2, Firebird2 v0.4 #49 Kernel, Firmware 2.2.1, Modem T959TLJL3 using XDA App
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
See "test results" section of the original post. I keep it up to date with everything I learn(CuriousTech data will be included soon). I got the best results with china1500_1 Also, I really like that this seller actually discloses that achievable battery capacity is variable between 500mAH-1500mAH. So, it means that you mileage may vary, but it least he is honest, unlike most of the other sellers. If you just need some backup batteries, I think china1500_3 is the best deal you can get. capacity is little less, 1200mAH, but you get two batteries and a charger shipped for $9.50! Ebay has lots of sellers of this same package, so pick anyone you choose, but pick the battery with the same G7 labeling

Like I said in previous posts, my quest for cheap battery with at least a little capacity advantage over OEM remains illusive.
[Captivate Accessories] Jarred101:
This appears to be an appropriate place to ask this question, since you guys are battery experts. If I charge a spare OEM battery how long will it maintain that charge? I would have it for emergency/out of pocket situations since I am normally within range of a charger all the time.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
Several years.

When you buy a new battery it's charged to around 50% or maybe a little less because they say that's best for long term storage. Storing with a full charge supposedly reduces life, but that's advice for very long storage (6 months to several years) because they retain their charge for a very long time.
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
The number I had seen thrown around for li-ion self-discharge rate is 5-10% a month...
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
There are a lot of conflicting reports, and even on wikipedia just on one page there are several different reports. One is that there is none unless they have a monitoring circuit (chip) in them. Personally I've seen a 5% drop in 6-8 months on what they call dumb batteries (no chip) that I've kept fully charged for years, which is supposedly degradation, not self-discharge. It's hard to come to a conclusion based on all the varying information from everyone.
[Captivate Accessories] whosy:
Can we do these tests with the phone?

Is the the standalone tester necessary? Isn't there an app that can measure how many mah the phone uses and thus tell you the battery's total capacity?
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
I would think it's possible since the current draw can be read, at least on the i897 kernels. I'm using Firebird which doesn't have it for some reason. Probably because it's an i9000 reoriented. It would use power to constantly read it, but adding up the current mAh over time would give a rough total at least. I'd actually like a widget that could show the mAh and total just so I could see it change with WiFi on/off/connected, bluetooth on/off, GPS, etc. and try different roms, modems and other things. Maybe someday...
[Captivate Accessories] TRusselo:
OEM Samsung Batteries under $20 on ebay (with shipping) from USA seller

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Samsung-Galaxy-B...587944?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item3f06b6e068

http://shop.ebay.ca/i.html?_nkw=EB5...id=p3286.c0.m282&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=20
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
One of the goals of this thread is to make sure we take capacity claims of the ebay retailers with very healthy dose of skepticism. The claims are cheap, and so are the shiny labels people put on the batteries that are probably all manufactured by the same factory. Why do you think these batteries are any better then others we already tested? Did you tested them? Are you planning to send me one for a test?

I updated OP with ANDIDA test
[Captivate Accessories] TRusselo:
sorry man, i didnt mean to strike a chord with you. but as far as i can tell

you already did test these batteries

. SAMSUNG1500_1 its the top of your list and the longest lasting on your list.

all i was trying to say with my last post is, if people STILL dont want to take a chance after reading your WONDERFULLY thourogh review/post and they would STILL rather have officail OEM just like the one that came with their phone, or want the extra 15 minutes YOU TESTED THEY HAVE, they CAN for a good price.

however i did some further research of my own and found that there are 2 series of the OEM samsung batteries

G9 EB575152VA and G7 EB575152VU

G9s are the ones that came with our phones and are supposedly better than the G7 series although they are both 1500mah.

i bought a G9. you have tested a G9 i can almost gurantee.

i appreciate what you have done, but i dont know what to think now...
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
I tested the OEM battery that came in my phone. There is no question about its originality. The battery the guy is selling on ebay might really be an OEM, which would be great! Or just as likely it could be yet another fake, that looks like original, probably works fine, but doesn't last as long. All I am saying, given the testing I have done, capacity claims need to be taken with a LOT of skepticism
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
Right. Nobody's actually tested one that has SAMSUNG on it (from eBay or other sellers) so we can't rule out the possiblity that those are in fact genuine. They are higher priced and they could get into legal trouble if they weren't, so I'd assume they probably are, just older stock maybe like with that fishy lettering mixup. I wouldn't call it as deceptive as the false capacity labelling. At least not yet.
[Captivate Accessories] reflex01:
Awesome

Great Read! Thank you so much!
[Captivate Accessories] abbaskip:
This.

I was really interested in the extended life, larger batteries too.

Any chance? They should beat OEM, but by how much?
[Captivate Accessories] abs0lut3z33r0:
so which ebay batteries are recommended . i found most of them to be on blacklist
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
None of the batteries are "blacklisted" All of them are cheap and will work just fine, but none of them live up to their rating. Use the test chart I have in OP and pick your poison.
[Captivate Accessories] grecoco:
Good information, thank you.

I need a second battery and this read has been interesting.
[Captivate Accessories] vizographic:
OP your work deserves a stickie
[Captivate Accessories] ZephCr:
I have several of these ebay batteries & last night a changed one in. When I plugged it in to charge it the phone would shut off & not turn back on until I unplugged it & not charge. I put the good one back in today & it's back to normal. Does anyone know how or what would cause this?
[Captivate Accessories] Little Dragon:
for the china1500_1 ebay seller, he only ships to USA. i'm in canada. any know of any similar batts that ship intl?
[Captivate Accessories] TRusselo:
look for a picture of the same battery on ebay.ca of the one on ebay.com..

.ca only shows sellers that do ship to canada.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
My condolences. Was it one of those silver label ones that look sort of like OEM? How many charges did you get out of it or was that the first try? It could be bad contacts, no 1500 ohm resistor, or the cell is shorted. You'd need a DMM to figure it out. That's one that could be blacklisted. :rolleyes:
[Captivate Accessories] wiedroid:
glad to know this information, almost buy one on ebay
[Captivate Accessories] dallasweb:
+1

Thanks for this exhaustive resource.
[Captivate Accessories] n19htmare:
I could have told you that without any tests.

You cannot pack higher capacity in the same size and density, unless you develop some whole new technology.

But what can you do, ton of gullible and un-informed consumers to leech off of.
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
This is not true. Check your facts before you post. Samsung came out with the same sized battery rated at 1650mAH. It is compatible with our phones and sold for Galaxy S Armani.

Here is XDA thread that discusses it:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=886743

Also, Vibrant Galaxy S 4G was released with 1650mAH battery.

I didn't test those particular batteries, but based on our testing of OEM batteries, samsung ratings tend to be correct

Also, Mugen sells battery rated at 1600mAH. CuriousTech tested it and found it to have higher capacity then our OEM.
[Captivate Accessories] n19htmare:
What's the density on the the 1650mah battery vs the 1500mah? I do believe I said weight and DENSITY.

I'm interested in seeing the weight of all these batteries.

As far as the stock 1500 vs the china 1900 goes, unless the 1900 weights a bit more then the 1500, no tests are even needed.
[Captivate Accessories] slvr00gt:
Again, show me your facts before making such statements.

I am not an expert on chemical compositions of batteries, and chemistry is not my area of expertise, but based on the info in batteryuniversity.com, batteries can be chemically tweaked to increase capacity. There number of li-ion battery variants. I can see chemical tweaking actually decreasing the total observable weight based on what is used as a doping agent.

My point is that to the end user, actual capacity test is the best way to judge the battery on the market.
[Captivate Accessories] TRusselo:
+1 bad manufacuring / cheap chemical ingredients can severly weaken a battery compaired to how it was supposed to preform on paper made properly. this is what i call the "china factor".
[Captivate Accessories] n19htmare:
Yah and common sense says these Chinese manufacturers are not dropping dough on R&D and selling their products at dirt cheap prices.

I'm sorry but any idiot can figure out that they're not gonna get 1900mah from a cell the same weight/size for 10 bucks coming out of a Chinese market.

Then again, props to you for taking the time to test it anyways.

OTH I've had excellent results though with Chinese built lipo cells I use in my RC model planes and cars.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
Agreed. Weight is still a good, simple capacity determining method when dealing with the same chemistry. Technology is changing rapidly with new advancements like lithium ion polymer, lithium iron phosphate and such, but we're dealing with all the same lithium-ion which is basically at its limit in capacity for mass. For any material, an atom weighs the same. Each atom holds a specific number of electrons and therefore has a capacity relative to its weight (not including the package).

As a process turns out more efficient chemistry like NiMH did, you usually see it in a heavier product. I'm not saying they could come out with a heavier, less efficient product though, but it's unusual. IMO, they're playing on the idea that Li-Ion capacity is increasing the same way NiMH did, which is untrue, but as long as people believe it they'll buy these up fast and never know the difference.

And those Chinese RC lipos are sooo 5 years ago. ;) I could ramble on about puffing those after just a few runs where a good 45C/5C charge pack never even gets warm.
[Captivate Accessories] n19htmare:
Not sure where you're getting your Lipo cells :P. But I, along with many others at my field have been very impressed with stuff coming from HobbyKing.

If you're going pull high current and drop the cell below it's cut-off point or overcharge them, then yah, they will puff. As with any cell, care has to be taken while charging.

If you're still in the hobby, I really think you should try the new Lipo cells (though A123 cells are all the rage these days due to their ability to handle very fast charging).

As far as your original posts, I agree.

Also it all comes down to the rating and METHOD of rating. For example some AA nimh cells are rated based on .9v cuttoff and others are 1v cuttoff. Obviously .9v is used to obtain higher capacity reading.

So who knows what rating method these Chinese companies use with rating their batteries 1900mah (if any at all, seems like they just pulled it out of their butt).
[Captivate Accessories] mobileseq:
Interesting read about the battery capacity. I would love a true capacity battery for longer use of time.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
Not to get too OT here, but from the looks of it HobbyKing sells a wide quality range. A1 sauce, PQ, fine. Zippy, Mystery, well research where the cells are manufactured. Not all batteries even on a Chinese site are manufactured in China, plus they don't tend to exaggerate capacity claims because they know users have smart chargers unlike cell phones and it can be dangerous. But even on HobbyKing the price reflects the performance and endurance you can expect more than the specifications do. In a way the marketing is similar to the phone batteries, except the real junk gets a lot more flack because they get put through a lot more abuse, and reuptations spread fast these days. Charge/discharge rates are less likely to be verified with RC but as long as you don't exceed what that actually is, you'll be fine. Plus number of cycles is a big part of cost which people don't factor in.
[Captivate Accessories] WheresWaldo:
Keep up the good work here. Ignore the claims of those with one battery and no test equipment. I did the exact same testing on Pentax K10D/K20D batteries about a year ago. In my case I bought 2 of each Chinese battery I could find. What I found was that quality control was not "all over the place" like has been proposed here, the real truth was that all the Chinese batteries were all over-rated. Most pairs performed consistently with just a single outlier in the whole bunch. So after my testing I left it to the reader to decide if the value was there, most every battery had less capacity than the OEM equivalent some as much as 30% less, but every one was a fraction of the price. In one case I managed to buy three batteries and a charger for less than one OEM battery.

My setup is using a CBA III from Rocky Mountain Radio as well as their software. I built a jig from a torn apart charger so the battery fits perfectly then ran multiple discharge/recharge cycles to test each battery at various discharge rates. Since these were camera batteries I could discharge at higher rates than you are, usually a couple of tests at 500mAh as well as one test at 1C discharge rate.

I did this testing because of the same wild claims of battery life on those forums. Too many variables when actually used in a device and capacity is never really known. Once tested they is no way to refute the findings, either that battery is what it claims to be or isn't.
[Captivate Accessories] mystycs:
So which battery is best to get here?
[Captivate Accessories] RDI:
Try plug it in, unplug it, turn on, re-plug it in.
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
It could also be shorting the charge circuit which can't be good for the phone. You can't tell without a meter but I wouldn't take chances, repeatedly. It's a cheap battery so not that big of a loss.
[Captivate Accessories] rons_sacramental:
Thanks
[Captivate Accessories] cowboi08:
SUPER JOB !! love the write up and thanks for taking your time and money to help others out . i will be buying the samsung batt and nothing else . thanks again
[Captivate Accessories] tkjeeper:
Great work to the OP, I'll be watching this thread. I'm happy with my stock battery and my phones only a week old. But I was prepared, thats why I got the car charger with the phone. Thanks for all the effort.
[Captivate Accessories] Johnston212:
That is my question as well. I'm looking to get at least a little more juice than the OEM if I can. Never have been able to get the crazy battery life results some people seem to get. I'm using an Otterbox Defender case, so the super 3000/3500 units are out of the question. Any suggestions would be great.
[Captivate Accessories] TRusselo:
both of you!

read the first post!

if you cant figure that out, you shouldnt be around sharp objects and wear a protective helmet...
[Captivate Accessories] CuriousTech:
ROFL

Well, a portable generator comes to mind.
[Captivate Accessories] Johnston212:
I have read the first post, I've read almost the entire topic, and I have seen those stats, as well as people who pointed out that simply discharging and charging the battery does not give a completely accurate rating depending on how the phone discharges the battery.

Sorry for trying to get a clearer picture. Also, yes I do have a portable charger, but depending on how long I'm away from the house it only helps for so long.