yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G Android Development] Neotelos_com:
I'm seeing tons of arguing, many of which don't even know much about lithium packs before using wikipedia and google to research.

I've dived into using unprotected packs for hobby uses and I will vouch it is very dangerous to play with pushing their limits. These aren't your typical NiMH and NiCd (NiCd's were removed from market due to hazardous carcinogens), they don't have a memory and have a maximum number of charges, regardless of whether you fully charge/discharge.

This technology has been around a LONG time, but more recently are we using LiPo over Li-Ion. When they are over-charged or over-discharged, they can oxidize and in worst scenario explode. A fire caused by these batteries cannot be put out with water until the chemical reaction is complete.

This is why Apple has a history of exploding batteries, just because they have protection doesn't mean it's going to be perfect. HTC has implemented this charging to extend overall battery life and decrease potential hazards.

These protection chips can allow the packs to go over 4.2v which is also dangerous, not to mention you always can have slightly faulty chips.
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
I was going to make this exact point in the corresponding thread linked a few posts back from yours! Even stock phones have potential for catastrophic failure just as the cars we drive do! Whenever you're using technology that utilizes explosive material, there's going to be risk but that hasn't stopped mankind from continuing to push the limits! Without risk there can be no reward....!
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
You kinda said it yourself, things are designed to fail! In business, it's not feasible to design thinga to last long term because that would interfere with the bottom line and profits. Companies will go cheap, cut corners, and put out clearly biased information to pad their wallets and secure jobs. I'm not saying the information is wrong but I will say nothing is proven until all angles have been evaluated and tested which is where we come in!

I agree with Barnacles in regards to the extended life battery and the loss we see without SBC vs with it. HTC, the battery manufacturers, and the countless engineers people keep referencing, even with all their testing, still managed to miss an obvious segment of the smartphone demographic and still have yet to offer a viable, efficient solution to those of us who spent the money on extended life batteries...

BTW...I am currently not using an SBC kernel and only changed to stock to see the difference in battery life and consumption but definitely support the continued development of this mod.
[EVO 4G Android Development] joshua_:
As another electrical engineer, I am compelled to note that the OP is ... well, wrong.

The 4.4V limit that the S-8205 chip kicks in at is JUST ONE WAY to blow up a Li+ cell. That is to say, if you hit 4.4V, then something certainly has gone wrong, but that's not the only way for something to have gone wrong. (Indeed, when people report "my battery has stopped working!", this is probably what has happened.)

There are still other ways to kill a Li+ cell, though, as the other engineers in this thread have alluded to. Li+ cells care, in particular, not about instantaneous terminal voltage, but instead about current pumped in over time -- that is to say, if you keep pumping in current over a long period of time, even after the battery has absorbed a full charge, then although the voltage might not rise to 4.4V, the battery will still undergo permanent damage.

Lithium-ion batteries are some of the most complex electrical devices that we know of, and charge algorithms for them are almost never as simple as they might seem. For that reason, it is really dangerous to experiment with your own charge algorithms. There is no protection that can really protect against a bad charge algorithm; there is nothing stopping you from seriously damaging your phone and battery.

joshua
[EVO 4G Android Development] gx1400:
+1

yay for informed skepticism
[EVO 4G Android Development] SilverZero:
You're suggesting there are 60,000 SBC users already?

The correlation of several users switching to SBC and then experiencing failures (to the extent of extreme temperature and smoke) very soon after (first full overcharge) is HIGHLY significant . . . depending on what other factors are involved.

I'd just hate to be the one to read this, decide it's not SBC, have my phone explode, then find out it is SBC. To me it just feels like this whole project is akin to stuffing a nickel in your circuit breaker because one of your outlets keeps tripping off. If SBC is safe, it will pan out in time, but only when the true causes of these failures are found (and people believe it).
[EVO 4G Android Development] willy900wonka:
Great. Hand waving does not count. If you know your discipline then use your logic, like in Karnaugh Mapping, to get to get to your answer. Lol

Sent with Super-Sonic Vision using XDA app.
[EVO 4G Android Development] willy900wonka:
OK. I would expect a working ee to refer to all the specs of the chip. Read the op please. I know when I design I do a comprehensive analysis of all the functions of a chip before I select it. Life is not simple by omitting the complicated. Prove me wrong, build a test circuit. Got to be easy with this few components. Btw i would but, believe the chip specs correct.

Sent with Super-Sonic Vision using XDA app.
[EVO 4G Android Development] nugzo:
I commented in every $10 ebay battery thread that was posted months back when everyone started buying them. There is a reason OEM and Brand Name batteries cost more. How can the chinese possibly build a battery and ship it to the united states for $10-$15. I dont care how you send it, the majority of what you are paying is shipping. Plus they still need to make a profit so that leaves these knock off batteries probably only costing a few cents to manufacture. There is no quality control! they cant afford quality control, and sell them for what they are selling for, and make a profit. Of course there wasn't many failures when they were brand new, but i WARNED and WARNED and WARNED everyone who was buying them that that wasnt a smart move, batteries will die, phones could explode, catch on fire.. nobody agreed with me, i got my ass flamed all over the place. Now , months later, those cheap batteries are failing. . I hate to say it (no i dont, i kinda like it) but I TOLD you SO :rolleyes: :p Now SBC might not bother OEM and Brand name batteries as much, but i bet SBC is pushing these cheap cheap batteries a little to hard. I've only heard of 1 stock failure. I am only guessing here but i would think more than 90% of users are still using stock batteries, and less than 10% are using the Cheap ebay firecrackers. So if the reports here are true, 1 stock and the rest generic, then the numbers are not looking to good for those with the generic batteries. I personally wouldn't use a $10 ebay battery at all, and if for some reason i had to, i for sure would not be working it to death with an SBC kernel. My advice would be to not use SBC on cheap ebay batteries that are made with the cheapest materials they can find. Yes stock batteries are also made in china, but they use quality materials and have strict QC and testing.
[EVO 4G Android Development] nukedukem:
The length of time spent at maximum voltage has a direct impact on battery life. Even if the voltage doesn't exceed 4.2V, you are holding that voltage for an exponentially longer period of time causing accelerated battery failure at best and short circuit/fire at worst. The military doesn't charge past something like 3.7V in order to extend battery life. The cell phone industry has taken the approach of charging to 4.2V and then letting the phone discharge to minimize the time spent at 4.2V. This is a good balance of long term battery capacity and daily discharge use.
[EVO 4G Android Development] Novarider:
Arguments like this go on and on in the hobby world when you compare "cheap" lipo batteries to "name brand" lipo batteries. Some people are willing to use cheaper batteries that MIGHT fail more easily and other people will only use so called high quality batteries that cost more. Do the ebay extended batteries die more often? Probably but they are what 1/5th the cost of the name brand extended batteries so most of the people that use them wont mind if a year from now they have to spend another $10 for a new battery.

Its quite funny in the hobby world how if someone uses "cheap" batteries and they say OH NO my esc is fried people are always quick to say "its your batteries we told you not to use them" Then when someone using the "name brand" batteries has the same problem they simply say "well sometimes batteries die" (i'm talking about hobby grade rc cars that use brushless esc/motor setups with lithium ion batteries incase you were wondering)

This thread is going to go back and forth forever until someone can ACTUALLY PROVE that these kernels are the cause of batteries failing which is likely impossible.
[EVO 4G Android Development] tcarmen:
Batteries with chips should be immune to overcharging, however not all Lion batteries actually contain funcitonal chips for a number of reasons.

The chips take up space that could be used for battery chemestry, so batteries with the chips will have a lower Ma/Hr rating than batteries without.

The chips cost money so they are sometimes not installed in order to reduce the item cost.

The chip may be defective. They're designed to have a very low per-unit cost and I would not be at all surprised to find failures.

When people report failures, it would be interesting to ask if the failed battery was the OEM part, or was a replacement.

Terry
[EVO 4G Android Development] xHausx:
You guys aren't understanding how the batteries work....

Overvoltage is not the problem, it's over saturating the battery that is the issue here. You're right that there is always a chance it could just be bad batteries, bad luck, whatever, but at the same time some of you are trying to say trickle charging them is perfectly safe when it is not.

The batteries can not hold their maximum voltage for long and doing so damages them the same way overvoltage does, only slower.

And believe it or not yes, every li-ion has a chip in it. The batteries are too unstable not too.
[EVO 4G Android Development] nabbed:
Not impossible.

Collect all reports of battery failures since the Evo launch. Then try to correlate these events with the use of SBC kernels.
[EVO 4G Android Development] joshua_:
Not really. OEM batteries are also as cheap as it gets. The QC isn't the expensive part, and really, the shipping isn't all that expensive either.

There are really very few suppliers of Li+ cells out there, and they're all more or less the same. The Happy Tin Battery Company guys get ones that didn't pass capacity testing, or ones that were overstock, but not ones that fall out of safety bounds. They use the same microcontroller onboard, because the Evo won't boot without it there! The SBC kernels have been causing just as much grief to stock batteries as to third-party batteries, as far as I can tell. So, my advice would be... don't use SBC on any batteries.
[EVO 4G Android Development] timothydonohue:
meh, i liked having the sbc before, never had a problem with my phone 'sploding.

throwing on another sbc kernel now, lol

'bout time to get a new phone anyway. i've had this one for six months :)
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
Lmao....I'm using one right now myself with my Seidio 3500mah battery. I guess I've always lived a little dangerously...:)
[EVO 4G Android Development] buck1623:
Please dont blame the kernel with out evidence that it is the kernel....
[EVO 4G Android Development] garyr2548:
Funny I was thinking exactly the same thing... love my Evo but I am too much of a gadget freak to keep one phone for too long
[EVO 4G Android Development] RogerPodacter:
anyone interested, in the nexus one forums we have actually edited our battery driver to interact with the chip inside our battery. the nexus one battery chip is the ds2784 IC fuel gauge, and it has 80 memory registers inside the battery chip itself, empty voltage, current, etc and we made an app to alter each register value to test extending the battery capacity etc.

we lowered our empty volt from stock 3.416 volt to 3.006 volt to see how much extra juice we could get. we edited the full current point to squeeze out some juice. there are many cool things to do once you get access to the battery chip. unfortunately the HTC phones with sense make it more diffucult to edit the driver. but the nexus one was straight forward to edit to gain this access.

there is even a dormant "learn cycle" that our ds2784 supports which if activated will perform a calibration, all done by the chip itself on the up and up. we just needed to get in there to learn how to activate it.

the link in my sig explains it all if anyone's interested.
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
I was waiting for someone from the Nexus forum to weigh in since that's where this originated and you guys/gals have been successfully using this mod for much longer than we have. If you look in the SBC thread, MS, the OP, would probably benefit from talking to you as would the rest of us... We've only scratched the surface of this technology!
[EVO 4G Android Development] freeza:
Well, I've been running SBC kernels ever since they were available with NO adverse effects.

I've continuously have let my phone charge overnight with them on it. Sometimes with a constant data connection to Pandora/Grooveshark to fall asleep with music on. I one time even fell asleep ON the phone and the highest I've seen my voltage go is 4.211.

So, I will continue using SBC kernel's and I do hope that netarchy and the MS (SBC dev) continue pumping out these kernels, despite all the recent negativity from a few people.
[EVO 4G Android Development] BuddaBelly:
Does the Nexus One run of the charger once the battery has charged? I think the main problem with the EVO is that it runs solely off the battery and leaves us with a less than fully charged battery after being charged all night.
[EVO 4G Android Development] sd2649:
Are your car Windows tinted? There us a chance that the hinting plastic could cause your children to be stuck in a car sinking in a river and cause them to die... just a small chance... still... tons of people tint their windows, they just understand what tint is better than exotic materials in a phone... no difference, none. In fact, I assure you that tint, even car seat covers have killed more people than a hacked kernel on a phone. Get a life!
[EVO 4G Android Development] Tyzing:
Please understand where I'm coming from when I say this but with that same logic you would not let your kids leave your home b/c there is a 1% chance a plane may fall from the sky and land on them.
[EVO 4G Android Development] RogerPodacter:
Yes the nexus runs completely off the charger once the battery is fully charged. You can even see comments about this in the driver code.

Months ago when this project first started I tried to look at the evo driver to see if the same thing is possible, but I didn't have much luck with the evo driver. It seems certain things weren't available, or hidden, in the HTC driver version.
[EVO 4G Android Development] ElAguila:
People are constantly referencing that article but don't reference what it says further into the article. It also says that over discharging the battery can kill it and even cause it overheat. I have not heard from the people who say their batteries died but I would like to know how many of them repeatedly use their battery until it is almost dead before putting it on the charger.
[EVO 4G Android Development] cyberone3:
I have been on every trickle charge kernal since the dev started making them

i'm on the latest sbc kernal

I charge my battery sometimes for more then 8 hours.

stock battery not one issue to report. the battery almost never gets warm while charging unless i am using it while plugged in.

better then average battery life :)
[EVO 4G Android Development] IOInterrupt:
Not sure if this has been posted, but here is the data sheet for the IC

http://datasheet.sii-ic.com/en/battery_protection/S8205A_B_E.pdf
[EVO 4G Android Development] jpmaniac87:
This is true! I use Li po batteries in an RC helicopter and ran the battery down too low, still trying to use it... it bubbled up and I made a bomb case with a pan, lid and coat hanger and left it in the tub til i got home ha. I've never seen over 4.207V on the SBC kernels
[EVO 4G Android Development] raiderinks:
That is ***NOT*** the datasheet for the IC in his pictures. The one is his pictures is a 8 pin package, and that datasheet is for a 16 pin package. I am still trying to find the datasheet for this exact IC.
[EVO 4G Android Development] raiderinks:
There is absolutely zero information in the press release that uniquely identifies that IC. There are lots of chips that use the same nomenclature (look up 8205A datasheet). Until you find the datasheet for this exact IC (that matches the pin count for starters) then we can't be sure of exactly what it will and will not protect against.
[EVO 4G Android Development] Nagrom Nniuq:
This doesn't explain why the TP2, Incredible, and Hero batteries (which also work in the Evo) get the exact same battery life as my Evo battery. Unless HTC uses the same overcharge protection in all their batteries.
[EVO 4G Android Development] michaelvibe:
Thanks for doing this!
[EVO 4G Android Development] xHausx:
Those chips are more of a fail safe than over charge protection, it's like a fuse in case something goes very very wrong.

If you read the article below you will see how it is still possible to overcharge the battery.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
I don't care about any current information out there. I'm still gonna run SBC until either my phone melts into a puddle of plastic or it explodes and takes me with it...lol...I've seen you post the same things on several different threads but believe the boundaries of technology are going to be pushed/tested for the benefit of the community. I may not have the "facts" but I've had no problems so I'm going to carry on.:) Thank you for your concern though.
[EVO 4G Android Development] xHausx:
Thats fine, I'm not going to try to stop you. I'm just wondering why you felt the need to tell me that when my reply was directed towards someone else who had a valid question?

To be honest I'm not concerned about you :)
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
Because, frankly, I'm sick of seeing you naysayers posting this dribble trying to discredit the hard work of many here on XDA! Information should only be taken at face value because for every article that makes one claim, another will say the opposite! Anyways, good luck with your crusade sir...lol
[EVO 4G Android Development] xHausx:
Well bud, there are facts and then there are your claims. If someone asks a question I assume they want to know the truth and not what someones biased opinion is. I'm not on here to discredit anyone's "hard work" but this has the potential to do more than brick someone's phone so I will correct them when they lie to people.

You know if people would quit putting posting about things they know nothing about then none of this would be necessary.
[EVO 4G Android Development] mlin:
It seems that from this statement:

"Commercial lithium ion packs contain a protection circuits that limit the charge voltage to 4.30V/cell, 0.10 volts higher than the voltage threshold of the charger. Temperature sensing disconnects the charge if the cell temperature approaches 90°C (194°F), and a mechanical pressure switch on many cells permanently interrupt the current path if a safe pressure threshold is exceeded."

From that same article that overcharging occurs above 4.3 V and that through Li ion tech and charger design that there are many failsafes to PREVENT this from happening.

Besides, overcharging isn't the claimed issue, its maintenance of voltage above a certain threshold.

On another note, I have been comparing the charging habits with the latest CM kernel vs the SBC kernels and I have noticed that the maintained voltage level as reported by Battery Monitoring Widget as almost identical between the two kernels. What differes is that the CM kernel will allow dischargind (not seemingly enough to drop voltage, and also for short periods of time (<5min)), while the SBC kernel seems to never discharge, though gradually approaches 0 mA while maintaining the same level of voltage.
[EVO 4G Android Development] bisby:
Correlation does not make something 100% true. By that argument, 100% of the fire-phones are EVO's. So we can conclude that the EVO is a fiery deathtrap.

Since we don't have access to the fire-phones pre-fire. We have no proof that it was SBC that caused it. Not saying that SBC isn't dangerous. It may cause fires. But these 6 examples aren't necessarily caused by SBC.

I have a BS in EE. I get the difference in voltage and current. I'd put SBC dangers at "likely" based solely on the brief physics explaination despite the fact that I have no idea about how these charging algorithms work (I haven't used or looked into SBC at all).

However, I also understand probablity and statistics. We already said that theres no where near 60,000 SBC users... so the sample size is going to be quite small. Correlations at this point may be just very odd probability.

PROVING the potential dangers of SBC are going to be based on physics and engineering.

The "the truth must be known" argument goes both ways. It's dumb to argue "This kernel is 100% guaranteed safe" for more reasons just beyond this possible way to damage batteries. However, its also dumb to argue "omg this kernel will 100% destroy your phone". Allowing the user to make an informed decision is important, presenting it in a fear-mongering way is not.

Airplanes crash, its part of real life... And therefore on EVERY flight (in america anyway) they are required to go over emergency procedures before the plane takes off. Its presented in a "hey, this can and DOES happen" way. not a "hey, this is GOING to happen" way.
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
Lol.... today's fact is tomorrow's fiction, it's just one great idea away!
[EVO 4G Android Development] tonwarr.the.incredible:
That is essentially how I feel without the technical knowledge to back it up... not saying something couldn't go wrong but until I'm proven wrong, I'll take my chances. I'd rather get my money's worth out of my extended life battery since, without SBC or an external charger, I'd never get a full charge and therefore would have wasted my hard-earned money...
[EVO 4G Android Development] MikeOD:
I'm just curious...has anyone ever watched how a Touch Pro 2 charges it's battery...is it different than the way the Evo handles it?...it's the same battery.

I wonder because, my TP2, would charge to 100%, and would slowly tick down 99 98 97 and so on through the day off the charger...the Evo does the same with SBC and without SBC automatically drops quite a bit off 100 immediately.
[EVO 4G Android Development] teeism:
interesting read.
[Captivate Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] cerjam:
so here's my issue. it seems the video player itself has issues displaying 1920x1080 video. 1280x720 works fine, same video. same bitrate, same everything. this seems crocked.

do we know of any workaround for getting a 1080p to work. i've heard of people pulling it off, but i've spent three hours on this and i really believe it to be the player. i've tried third party clients and they're about 5fps. it's irksome.

help plz?
[Captivate Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] goob1284:
You know we have two different video players right? We have video player, and we also have movie player or something else like that. Try it.