yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] JoePR31:
Being that I posted this thread just a couple of hours ago, I'm actually surprised at the number of people that have already experienced something similar from Tmo and felt strongly enough about it to share their experience on here. I am certainly not anti-Tmobile. I've been a T-Mobile customer for 7 years, and over that time span have bought many devices from then. On average, 3 per year.

I'm also not anti-Android. In fact, most of the devices I've bought over the past 2 years have run Android...beginning with the very first..the G1(which I will never get rid of!). But, all that being said, I've seen and heard enough to be convinced that this is a real problem...and your tendency to post an opinion that goes against the grain of many of the threads you post in will not change that.

Tell me, why does it seem that most of the time I come across one of your posts, you are at odds with the others who posted in the same thread? Have I just happened to catch those threads and missed others where you don't do this, or do you do it on purpose? I know I could go and read your post history, but I rather hear it from you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] crsnwby:
I bet Microsoft would love to know why there devices are not selling in Tmobile stores, surely someone knows a contact he can give this thread to... Then let the lawsuits fly.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
You're asking him rhetorical questions. Let's not get into this type of discussion. It's off-topic and it will more than likely result in a thread lock.

Move on and live with the fact that he disagrees.

Though I doubt he goes into T-Mobile stores with any frequency to check out RIM, WM, or WP7 devices... Given his posts/attitude on this forum.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
They probably think it's because it's the smallest major carrier. They probably could have sold more if they put a phone on Boost Mobile, instead of T-Mobile, to be honest...

Also, Windows Phone sales weren't expected to be super high. WP7 was released after a slew of Android super phones that soaked up a ton of contract renewals (and off-contract purchases).

On top of that, there are no CDMA WP7 devices. Sprint is generally starved of decent smartphones (only two decent ones at the moment), so they'll probably sell a bit there when they are released. Verizon doesn't have anything but redundant Droid phones, so I'm sure they will sell quite a bit WP7 devices when it goes there.

Many people who wanted an iPhones simply went to AT&T to get it, although I'm sure there's quite a few on Verizon that will get one. AT&T is cheaper than Verizon, anyways.

These are all factors that people on this forum dissenting upon WP7 almost always intentionally fail to mention.

EDIT: Oh, and let's not forget the HTC Surround is pretty crappy. The HD7 is an HD2 in a new skin (and it's on T-Mobile, see thread subject), and the Dell Venue Pro is still going through tweaks before it starts shipping en masse (Dell giving all their employees one probably cut deeply into stock available for the average consumer). The manufacturers and carriers didn't really do Microsoft any favors IRT launch devices (Microsoft doesn't design phones, so it's not their doing).
[Windows Phone 7 General] JoePR31:
Agreed...my apologies. Back on topic....
[Windows Phone 7 General] jwzg:
LOL about Boost Mobile.

I do disagree about the Surround though. It's smoother than any Android phone I've used to date and the hardware is good quality. I've not had any lockups other than Marketplace once and a slow Java script. It may not be groundbreaking, but there's only so much you can get in a phone.

As for experiences with T-Mobile, I think both them and AT&T have been dragging their feet on the WM handsets, and T-Mobile might be outright sabotaging sales. The T-Mobile reps I talked to all had Android phones and had to pull an HD7 from behind the counter, and I was the first to play with it after two days being out :eek:. They also steered me strongly away from the HD2, which I know to be stable when it's not saddled with lots of bloatware.

If I were MS, I'd be asking some questions.
[Windows Phone 7 General] crsnwby:
Being in the UK I dont see it as much as pretty much all phones are on any network except the trophy with is vodafone only at the moment and the HD7 with is O2 at the moment.

But if I were asking people whos job it is to sell my devises how sales are and they say rubbish and I could back up my complaint with this info they would be getting a very stiff punch in the face.
[Windows Phone 7 General] z31k:
I'm an employee and I actually love my HD7. Ask me about it in my store and I'd pull mine out and show you Netflix, Zune, the 720 cam, explain the Ui and the specs to a "T". I try and educate everyone that comes in the store and tell them about all the features.. Unfortunately I get a lot of people just interested in the mytouch 4g.. I understand its a 4g phone and it is the only one that boasts a great front faced cam.. But It's not a great fit for every buyer.. Judging by what I have read thus far, it seems as though a lot of you have been burned by misinformed, ignorant and very rude rsa.. But that really shouldn't deter you from retaining our great service.. Yes there are a lot of ignorant rsa out there and not a lot of them even know what kind of features the phones have.. I am sorry about the way you guys were treated. You people as customers are very appreciated and should be well informed about each and every product without bias.. Unfortunately, there are a lot of "sale men" and not enough tech men.. I hope you guys don't take it out on the company and retain your well appreciated service with us.. The HD7 is a killer!!
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
I'm leaving T-Mobile because they released a Product that performs like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB1b0UrX9e0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2do065zuSUI

And now they're dragging their feet along with Samsung to bring updates.

When I change phones because of a faulty product, I usually take my family plan to another carrier at the same time.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Yes, the Boost Mobile thing is funny, but my mom has nothing but good things to say about her BoostBerry Curve, and it's hard to beat Boost's $50-60 all you can eat plans.

In any case, I doubt Sprint would let Boost Mobile upstage them...
[Windows Phone 7 General] adesonic:
I read this thread with interest, we get the same problem with some of the carriers in the UK, the store reps in many cases are hopelessly ill informed about WP7 and have no technical ability at all.

Apple scored so well with the iphone because they limted the carriers initially and made absolutely sure that the carriers pushed the iphone and sang its' praises, in addition they have a big retail presence themselves which helps. These phones (iphone, Android Palm etc.) are in may ways are fashion accessories, to make them successful you have to get them in peoples faces in a posiitive way, not sure MS are very good at that..............
[Windows Phone 7 General] JoePR31:
I was really hoping that a Tmo employee would take the time to post in this thread, and I'm glad that you did. Thank you for doing your job as it should be done! I for one appreciate it. That being said, I know that you know that, when it comes to doing your job right, being knowledgeable, and being impartial...you are part of the minority.

Why is it that way? I want to do something about this, but I want to be sure that I target the cause of the problem...and not just a symptom. Does this all fall on the individual retail stores and those that work in them...or is it this way because corporate wants it to be this way? Are you guys not getting the necessary training and/or guidance...or is T-Mobile as a company encouraging you to actively steer customers to Android at the expense of everything else...everything else by default at this time being WP7?
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
I think most employees are just biased and unprofessional...
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
This is a very natural thing, part of what's sometimes called "distribution inertia". Salespeople in retail rarely know much about what they sell, especially when dealing with complex products unless they are genuinely personally interested, which you simply can't expect from everyone - it's just a job for most. They are normal people and as such often ignore any promotional and instructional materials they receive with new products. Or if they don't ignore them they aren't trying to really dig deeply into the specifics and forget the details. And they have their personal bias. And companies don't spend enough money on their training, which is understandable because of high employee turnover in retail - a lot of this money is wasted, and doesn't necessarily give you a competitive advantage. And of course the very fact that devices are sold by operators plays a role - they are selling contracts more than they sell phones. I don't know how compensation works in T-Mobile, but it should be aimed at upselling plans and preventing churn. If it is, then it's perfectly normal for reps to recommend what they know as opposed to something new that may be risky and lead to unhappy clients. These things make market share growth a slow thing everywhere.

It's also a function of a very poor choice of the name for the OS - no matter what it is inside, it sounds too much like a continuation of their previous product. Using the word "Windows" doesn't really work to convey the promise of simplicity, fluidity and coolness. This affects consumers, but it also affects the salespeople in stores.

Of course their may be some policy in T-Mo that favors Android, but it's inevitable and would be a consequence of Microsoft's choice. Unlike Android with its clear "push" strategy, Microsoft is trying to do a "pull" - they want consumers to be the primary driver of sales, as opposed to channels like operators or retailers. They don't allow operators to mess with devices a lot, and operators aren't big fans of products that turn them into "dumb pipes" (which they are and should be, IMO, but they'll disagree). They won't refuse to get some extra cash from sales of iPhones or whatever sells well by itself, but won't jump out of their pants to try hard.

Either way, there's not much you can do about it apart from reporting obviously wrong behavior, rudeness and such. Just give it time. If MS do a decent job in raising brand awareness, position their OS well and make a decent product to fulfill the brand promise, things will change.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
That's the thing you guys do respect different opinions. If checked you would know that I have had every major WM CDMA device, iPhones, and there is currently a HD7 in my household. I'm sorry for not agreeing 100% with everything on this board.
[Windows Phone 7 General] FalconiNixon:
I'm sorry you have had several bad experiences with Tmo reps. I have sold for the company for 4 years now and understand your frustration. First of all, these reps are sales rep first and foremost. When hiring for any sales position the ability to sell and close deals will drastically outweigh knowledge of goods being sold. Obviously you can't sell anything without first knowing your product but the majority of reps know the common procedures of popular devices and know the basic components of the phones. You can easily learn more from reading the manual, as our reps get a training module on high end devices to get a understanding. (pretty much a video/questionnaire that is followed up with a test)

My experience is that 90% of customers don't know what they want, but buy what's marketed to them. Our job is to understand what the customer's needs are and direct them in the right direction. The one issue that has plagued the Windows lineup is the inconsistencies. Going back to the MDA, TouchPro 2, Dash, etc customers have been excited about new windows devices but return them at an alarming rate. There was excitement around Os 6.0 and a frenzy for the HD2 with 6.5. The HD2 was probably the most returned cell phone I have ever sold. Our entire market was plagued with returns. So when the HD7 was announced most reps didn't think much of it because of the dissatisfaction we have seen from previous Windows devices.

To answer your last few questions, you can call Customer Care on a manager or talk to the manager to file a complaint on a rep if he is unprofessional. You won't be able to change reps knowledge due to the financial burden of educating thousands of reps. If you want to buy phones or accessories go to the store. If you want to find out the inner workings of a phone look it up online and then go to a store to see the device. And no, we are not told to sell Android, we are told to sell phones that matches the customer's needs. (A happy customer is best regardless of what phone they get) Obviously biased opinions will always be in sales so just know what you want and do some research prior to buying.

To sum up why HD7 might not be pushed as hard as Android devices.

Windows phones have been the most returned devices my stores have sold (the tmobile tap is a close second) and that hurts stores. So when every new Windows device has "issues" as our customers have said, normally were not excited to push that device first.

Fine a store with reps that have been there a while and continue to give them their business. When you build rapport with a rep they will normally be more open with you.

Wow that was long
[Windows Phone 7 General] The Gate Keeper:
so yea, the reps are doing as i said... see the word "windows" attached to it... instantly don't bother... i've got mates who at the start were a bit iffy... but man they're liking it now. my mate is gonna come off his iPhone 3Gs contract very soon, and he wants a HD7. When it hits Australia, quite a few will jump on board cause a lot of gadget lovers here like them big screens.

But yea, microsoft made the hill even all the more stepper but continuing the "windows" phone branding. sure they don't want to detract from their lineup, but some of the most success products they have which aren't related to desktop so much, have done really well on their own (e.g. xbox).
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
Though the reps at one of my local T-Mobile stores...there's like 4 or more in this city...never tried to steer me away from WP7, they did screw up a large payment and lost it. The store showed record of it...after deep digging...but I had to show them the reciept I was given from the transaction for them to see the error. Even then the transaction was so obscure they had a hard time finding it. The company showed nothing of the money I gave and would not help. It was up to the store manager to get me compensation. They didn't quit on me either. They promised my money would be accounted for in my favor and that's what happened. I even was given a free $30 BodyGlove hard case for my HD7...that chrome one with the leather-like back.

The store I was at was top-notch, even though the payment got lost. They are credible and ethical at this one store. Now there's another store about 2 miles away that has a woman who hates anything non-Android. I've dealt with her. I received the first 3 of the 4 HD7s I had. They were all faulty from that store and I finally gave up on that store and got a good one at the other store. Like I said, I dealt with this Android lovin' woman and she is purely arrogant and egotistical. She's also a sexist because she even badmouthed men in front of patrons.

There are good stores and there are bad ones. It's that way with anything.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thesecondsfade:
My first experience in a T-Mobile store was that they just didn't know much, if anything, about WP7. They had a working model but I had to ask to see it. It was tucked away in a drawer in the box.

When I visited a different T-Mobile store, they seemed much more knowledgable and were actually pushing the HD7 on me like they normally do with Android devices. Come to find out, a Microsoft rep was out there doing an in-store demo of the HD7 the day before I went there.

If Microsoft wants to change the opinion on WP7 of T-Mobile employees, they should go out to each of the stores for a presentation like they did with the one by my work in Orange.
[Windows Phone 7 General] :
This is intriguing and I think I might go to a store to test this out... I for one like Microsoft's new OS and would love to see it on my HD2. I love to argue too, so this sounds like a blast.
[Windows Phone 7 General] markgamber:
Indeed, if Microsoft did it's job as far as marketting and promotion, these people would be jumping at the chance to talk about WP7 and they'd actually have some accurate information. But Microsoft has never been able to market it's way out of or into anything for the past...oh...15 years? So you end up with stores manned by minimum wage employees who have no incentive or ambition to learn about the phones on their own, know almost nothing about anything aside from what they carry in their pockets and, like everyone on these sites, are full of misinformation and flat out lies about everything they don't carry in their pockets. Apple and Android have worked hard to cultivate this image of "cool products" and, by and large, it's worked well for both platforms. What comes to mind when you think of Microsoft? The blue screen of death, that walking definition of an arrogant douchebag known as "Balmer" and bugs Bugs BUGS. I've worked in Microsoft shops for years, have tons of Windows machines, bought lots of WinMo phones and now own a Focus and that's what comes to my mind when I think of Microsoft. If WP7 drops off the map in 2011 they'll have no one to blame but themselves. Not T-Mobile, not you, not me, Microsoft. What's worse, I seriously doubt they'll have learned anything from it...STILL.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Wrong.

You're still disregarding personal biases, and most T-Mobile employees show a blatant biase for Android.

No amount of marketing will change that. Have you been reading this forum, even?
[Windows Phone 7 General] lordcanti86:
I dunno. I've been in a couple of T-Mobile stores (Tallahassee, FL and Pinellas Park, FL) and never had this problem with WP7/HD7. Might just be a store-to-store kind of issue.

Keep in mind that T-Mobile is really pushing its "4G" network, which the HD7 doesn't support. That could be another huge reason.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
That's another reason why I'm switching carriers.

Them using HSPA+ as a long-term 4G solution + the introduction of multiple 4G handsets on a Small 3G/4G network has had a noticeable impact on the network. I can only imagine what it will be like when HSPA+ handsets are the norm.

I much prefer Sprint's WiMax approach, or Verizon and AT&T's [near] future LTE approaches.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
Every single salesperson I have ever known has sold by:

Easiest high margin sale (first)

Easiest sale (second)

Most like POS product that will still make a sale and MIGHT bite them in the ass later (distant third)

The sales people have learned, and adapted. If/when WP7 proves itself to them, makes them easy money, and makes a lot of it, they'll give it some floor time.

Conspiracy ? nah, just people going for the low hanging, not-biting-them-in-the-ass fruit.

The manager was giving his honest opinion, and if you have a different opinion, share it, and vote with your money. You can't change grass roots salesfolk by calling corporate. Sorry.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
What you're saying is spot on. Those people handling activations don't care what you buy. They just want you to buy. And not bother them tomorrow. About -anything-. Buy, and go away.

They might make $10/hr, part time. They don't give a rats ass about it if wp7 fizzles away, or android becomes a butt plug in 2010. If iOS sucks your brain and makes you a lemming, they'll still drink cheap beer on their balcony and flick cigarette butts in the grass. Until they get out of college, get a real job, and buy whatever is left over for a phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] markgamber:
I'm absolutely not disregarding personal bias, I even mentioned it. They have a bias because they think Android is "cool" and there's no one saying WP7 is "cool" so they repeat the crap they see on sites like this and the even more clueless take it as gospel because it's coming from someone wearing a cellular retailer's shirt. Until Microsoft does something...anything...to change it's image and that of it's products, this will continue just like it has since Windows CE 1.0. And, you know, anyone who walks into a cellphone retailer and believes what the salesperson tells them gets what they deserve. With all the resources available to do even minimal research before buying something, there's really no reason the salesperson should have to do anything other than operate a cash register, smile and keep their yap shut.
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
Microsoft needs one really well designed, sexy piece of hardware to tout WP7. Instead they have a bunch of bland hardware choices. IOW, they are not exciting designs. None of the WP7 phones have "personality" like iP4 or some of the more popular Android phones.

I would love to see MS have one really sexy, high-end hardware design and just push the hell out of that onto the market. The Venue Pro is OK but it isn't widely available or advertised.
[Windows Phone 7 General] The Gate Keeper:
whilst that may be true, you need to remember that MS is a software house and they don't want to get into the hardware arena (repeat of the KIN perhaps? but even then KIN was actually made by SHARP, not MS, but was branded as an MS product). but yes, i would like to see OEMs have a bit more capabilities to push their own aspects a bit in the hardware field. I think it best (like said previously by myself several times) that the current hardware be a minimum benchmark, and then any phones that come should all meet or be better then the current benchmark in all ways, but the OEMs can tamper with it how they desire (e.g. introducing tegra 2 chip).
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
Even though MS is software only, nobody really cares. MS will get blamed for the failure of the phone...hardware and software. They really need to set the standards on sexy design. At the end of the day, sexy design will trump all in the consumer market. The Kins were POORLY designed, ugly phones.

The minimum hardware requirements is not the best idea either. The problem is, all of the phones that exceed those requirements will be a waste of money because none of the apps will support those extra features. I remember when the SE X1 came out with the WVGA screen. Problem was, there was very little software to take advantage of it. Same with WM phones and accelerometers. There's software support now, but the phones are no longer cutting edge! The app market is going to cater to the largest hardware base, which is most likely, the minimum requirements. This defeats the purpose of a manufacturer creating a "higher-end" device. The solution is, the "minumum standard" has to be absolute cutting edge...nothing less. This ensures that all devices are cutting edge. And "sexy design" if I haven't mentioned it 10 times already ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] The Gate Keeper:
yea, but then the prices also get driven up quite high as well. i'm sure MS struggled with all this as well. the next year will really show how they handle all the new technologies.
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
I really don't think price matters. At the end of the day, people are going to either get the $200 subsidized model or get the unlocked one for full price. Whether it's $500 or $800, I don't think matters to them at that point.

Remember when Ballmer laughed that no one would buy a $500 subsidized iPhone? It ended up being subsidized for $200.

If a phone is really sexy and desirable, people will go out of their way to get it. Massive sales will eventually drive down the price.

MS needs to do more than just drive sales, they have to rebuild their reputation. Their reputation is as non-sexy as it gets :rolleyes: If Apple does nothing else, they maintain their brand sexiness. That's why people are willing to pay more for it.