yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Vibrant General] rsfaze:
maybe we should point out who the REAL developers are, and who are the wannabe's like people that take others work and just theme it.

Maybe just maybe then, these people that are rushing to hand over fists of money would donate to the people that actually put things out, and not the winzip blender wannabe's.

I "had" respect for some of these people until I first hand decompiled their rom to find out it wasn't there's at all. Adding a theme and transitions to Windows, does not make it mine.. how hard can that be to understand?
[Vibrant General] Insomaniac10:
well i really hope youre not referring to me......i have a good paying a job and if i really wanted to pay for a ROM i would, but i dont......check my signature, i AM still runnning JI6, i dont use Macnut or Obsidian (neither ever required donations). I am speaking purely based on observation, not personal experience.

I mean if i was stuck stuck with JI6 forever, i wouldnt be thatdisappointed, because i have my phone setup exactly how i want it. Im not a fan of leaked ROMs, never have been. So i wont be waiting up all night waiting for Nero to go public either.

Please dont confuse me for one of those crybabies who just HAS to get their greedy fingers on the newest ROM right away just to be with the "in-crowd"...thats not what im about

please dont misunderstand me, you have to read carefully what im trying to say....i have absolutely NO ISSUE with devs receiving money....none. they often deserve it. i just dont like the way the concept of "donating" is presented sometimes. The way you outlined it ^^ is a great way of wording the way it SHOULD be appraoched....unfortunately it isnt always approached that way, and THOSE are the instances im referring to in my OP
[Vibrant General] Obi_Kwiet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License

This issue is that a custom ROM is built upon the work of thousands of other people that all licensed their work under the GPL because they wanted to it to be used that way. When someone takes their work and sells it, they are expressly misusing the work of others.

I think its fantastic that people are willing to put their time into developing ROMs, but at the same time it's very disrespectful and illegal to not follow the wishes of the people whose work the ROMs are built on. Ultimately, ROMs are very, very minor tweaks to what has been the result of almost twenty years and millions of man hours of work. If you want to be a part of that, that's great, but you have to play by the rules. After all, those rules are what made ROM development possible.
[Vibrant General] the3dman:
I can understand why they do it. Most people don't know how many hours go into just developing a theme let a long a full rom. So I understand them wanting to make some money for their time, but I also do agree with people who think they should not have a donation requirement to download, they should label it as a pay to download / theme or rom.

Here is an example of why I think devs do a required donation:

Here is the Nexus Theme I made (Did not ask for donations): http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=860198

To date this has had: 318 downloads

Amount of donations recieved: $0

Time Spent making it: 10+ Hrs

Here is the Frobuntu theme I made (Asked for Donations): http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=846285

To date this has had: 333 Downloads

Amount of donations recieved: $20

Time Spent Making it: 20+ hrs

So I can see why they do this. It makes a difference when you ask for the donations, but... again there should not be a required donation. That is called "selling" your rom/theme. They could do it the way I did the Frobuntu rom where I "Highly Suggested" a donation amount in big letters in the header of the post, but still gave it away to those who cannot pay.

Just my two cents. I would never flame or look down upon a dev for choosing to require a donation, that is their decision. I just choose not to do that myself.
[Vibrant General] smashpunks:
No offense but most custom roms have a couple issues, needing to be fixed in the next release, meaning in a few days your gonna have to flash again, then the cycle continues, another bug so needing a new release... But the new release isn't faster, better or any cooler than the release before...lol

I'm on stock jk6 with my tweaks, my mods, and my setup, I was on customs for a bit, but all this donation crap has made me not wanting to try custom roms from anyone here, especially with all the drama :d

Needless to say I've never donated anything other than to xda itself..... I would never give my money to people just doing this for fun just like I do.... Donate to me then lol...

Anyways, id advise against donating to get a early release that ain't any better than the one before....lol

All I can say is suckeeeeers... Sorry but true, you have been hustled...

P.s. Anyone with a donate to me sign in their sig or whatever are completely retarded imo..... Lol
[Vibrant General] tonie972:
Why is this thread is even created anyway? What's the point of bring this to a flame war? These type of threads will only hurt the community so please think twice before you create something like this.
[Vibrant General] smashpunks:
misunderstood post my bad..
[Vibrant General] rsfaze:
because this is the place where we are "allowed" to talk about this. Don't like it or don't have anything productive , don't post.
[Vibrant General] hydrogenman:
what passes for doing DEV work at times is a joke anymore too
[Vibrant General] Insomaniac10:
What flaming are you referring to? Cause i dont see any....this thread has actually remained pretty civil. yes it may be a controversial topic, and everyones obviously not going to agree...however its the general section, and i felt like voicing my opinion.....in fact i think your post is the closest one thats come close to a flame

It seems like some people may be mistaking this for a "dev bashing" thread. These are probably people who skim read, as opposed to ACTUALLY reading to get a good understanding of what people are saying.
[Vibrant General] s15274n:
XDA is better than this....
[Vibrant General] Insomaniac10:
no dude, you just dont like me, because of ONE thread i started in the past....but thats ok....theres still nothing wrong with this thread, debating the meaning of a word, and how SOME (as in "not all") people justify throwing it around and manipulating it. you literally are interpreting all of this in the most negative way possible. this wouldnt be the first time youve attempted to make me look like the biggest ass on XDA, but whatever, its an internet forum. no sweat off my sack. if you can gauge what kind of person someone is based on a couple interactions over the internet, then you would make a damn good psycologist.

there is a BIG difference between being unappreciative/disrepectful, and simply questioning the way things are and the intentions of some people.

It seems to me that you are hellbent on the possibility that i am referring to the TW/Nero release. You are being very closed-minded. I would never bad mouth TW because they, and Eugene, are probably the most respectful/patient devs for the Vibrant.

yes, TW required donations for early access. HOWEVER, they did not advertise or parade it around. IN FACT, the only reason I found out about it was through their IRC chat (which is a lot of fun by the way). This release however did remind me of another recent incident with the Vibrant that a lot of people DID have issue with, and it reminded that I had wanted to post on the matter
[Vibrant General] emonero:
Someone smart said once: "If you are good at something don't do it for free" :D
[Vibrant General] Insomaniac10:
That guy was a clown ;)

::knee slap::
[Vibrant General] kaine13x7:
I have no problem with donations, but as soon as it turns from that to you want this it will cost you. Not only is that illegal, it goes against everything Linux was based on and stands for. The worst example I can think of is buying a "membership" at a monthly charge to have access to things that the general public does not. If I was Samsung I would of sued.
[Vibrant General] chui101:
The business model for a lot of businesses "selling" GPL software is that they are not selling the software, but support for the software. I do support that model - provide the ROM for free, but provide help for a price. (And not call it a donation.)

At least no one has turned into a total ass like James Ewing from Sveasoft yet. (http://wrt54g.thermoman.de/ if you are not familiar with the story)
[Vibrant General] masterotaku:
I'll chime in with my perception, though it may not be a helpful one.

I've installed countless firmwares on my Samsung Vibrant at this point. Probably flashed the phone more than I've had phone calls (phone calls are so yesterday).

I've yet to be REQUIRED to donate....anything. If this were a runaway problem with Samsung Vibrant/Galaxy development I think I would have noticed by now.

I have not.

Has anyone else??? If the answer to this ends up being overwhelmingly no, as I think it will be with most people, then it seems like this is a thread devoted to a non-issue and a complete waste of time (even including this comment of mine).

Move along...nothing to see here. ;)
[Vibrant General] rsfaze:
I find this argument/discussion very simple to split up.

Did the "Developer" actually develop something or did they just make it look different?

If all they did was take something someone spent time developing and changed the look of it.. even if it takes you hours that doesn't mean you are entitled to a donation. I'm also not saying those people that take apart the framework-res.apk and winzip it back up don't deserve a piece of the pie, but certainly they don't deserve the biggest portion.

The reason this donation thing has gotten out of hand, is because of just that.. winzip developers. You are NOT a developer, you would be considered a skinner/painter. You didn't build the structure but you made it look pretty, understand the difference.

Keeping that in mind, why should a painter get donations when without the developer there would be nothing to paint.

I'm trying to find a way here to make the non technical people that visit this site open their eyes to what goes on behind the scenes of a rom, and exactly what they are donating towards.

Rchp23452321 said before that Samsungfirmware has never received a donation for their leaks, yet without them.. what would these painters be doing?
[Vibrant General] masterotaku:
I think it's even simpler. There is no XDA Gestapo putting a gun to anyones head requiring that they do...anything. If someone demands a payment and you consider this to be counter to your ethical considerations, just don't pay.

Even if this were rampant (and it is not) it does not damage development or the community any more than those who buy in to it allow by participating. Since this doesn't seem to be occuring AT ALL, this is much ado about nothing as I see it.

Note that I'm deliberately making a distinction between REQUESTING a donation and DEMANDING payment. The thread seems to be about demanding payment, and I quite frankly see no evidence of this in the Vibrant dev community. At all. I could be wrong, but I frequent this forum multiple times I day so I think I would have noticed.

I see nothing wrong with a "skinner" requesting a donation for their work. By making their work publicly available and requesting a donation you still have the option of not donating. Should you donate simply because someone requests? That's a personal choice, and one the poster has already acknowledged is genuinely an open one by posting their work freely.

This just doesn't appear to be anything remotely resembling a rampant issue with Vibrant development. Rather this appears to be an ethics rant over the behavior of a glaring minority, one so minor that I'm still looking for these developers demanding payola. I'm not finding any...

This doesn't mean that such Vibrant/Galaxy devs do not exist, but they are certainly not getting noticed by many, otherwise the issue would be far more apparent.
[Vibrant General] rsfaze:
I couldn't agree more.. the educated people know not to fork over funds for nothing, however not everyone here is that bright.

When I see actual developers get jack for their time, and then some kid comes in and makes things pretty and calls it "his' and gets flooded with donations, there is something wrong with that.

If I knew you created something/built something and then witnessed someone else change it's name and paint it another color, I would stand up in your defense also as I consider that stealing. Maybe the best route to take here is to seek legal action against these clowns, nothing like a real life lawsuit to get their attention.
[Vibrant General] Insomaniac10:
With all due respect, i and the other people commenting along side me on this thread are obviously not imagining these things happening.

I agree its not everywhere you look, but its there. I mean just cause its not a global issue doesnt mean its not relevant. And its discouraging to see, especially when everyone likes to preach stuff like "community" and "contributing" and "just doing what we love", etc.....
[Vibrant General] chui101:
Hear, hear. Thank goodness for capitalism!
[Vibrant General] wes342:
I think the main problem is that developers put in a ton of time into something and feel they should be payed for the time they spent on the rom, theme whatever.

Its the lack of donations that they are kinda forced into requiring a payment.

If more people would donate this would never be an issue.

I have done a lot of stuff for people in (inc / evo) forum get tons of downloads and very few donations.

I can see why devs / themers are wanting to charge for stuff.

What every body should do right now is donate to the devs or themers that have done the work.

If someone cant afford make a small donation to a dev or themer then they shouldnt have an expensive android phone in the first place.

P.S. I say themer because they still do the work.

Its like a graphic designer they still get paid.
[Vibrant General] rsfaze:
the lack of donations to the real developers comes from the money taken by the graphic designer.

Maybe if each graphic designer(I like that) would give the actual developer a % of their donations since it's their work they are making money on in the first place, half of these issues would not exist. Just a thought.
[Vibrant General] RobBull69:
I don't mind the donors access area to what are often buggy early test builds and kernels. I donated to one dev team that happens to have a donor area, not because I "had" to access it, but because they host the roms on their own servers instead of using the mirror sites that are slow as molasses. If you don't donate, you'll eventually get access to the roms anyways and reap the benefits of the donations. I don't think anyone is enriching themselves by having a donor area given the overhead and time that goes into making these roms.
[Vibrant General] Insomaniac10:
I created a full metamorph for JI6 and JK2, i never asked for a donation, nor will i ever. with that said, that is not to say themers deserve nothing. i respectfully disagree with what you said, hardcore developers are not the only people who contribute to the community. i tend to find themes and mods collectively just as important as ROMs, as they give your ROM life and tailor it to your liking. just because we like the developers ROM doesnt mean we share that developers taste in appreance and certain features.

If someone likes a theme, and they want to donate to the themer, its because they like the theme. Just cause you love a theme doesnt necessarily mean you love the ROM its based on just as much. Some people priotize differently. If a themer earns a donation i dont believe he owes anyone anything.
[Vibrant General] wes342:
Thats not the themers fault

I was saying that people should donate to the people that did the work.

Donations to everybody that had a part ( to some extent)

Like $5 to to rom $2 to theme.

Its a comunity i think even people that helped you find something deserves a little thank you.
[Vibrant General] wes342:
We are all here to help each other out. At least thats how it should be.
[Vibrant General] masterotaku:
Well with all due respect precisely who is demanding payment? The overwhelming majority of the rom cooking here is done by a handful of devs, with a few hangers-on taking those cooked roms and customizing them further.

After that you have themers/morphers, but they aren't exactly legion here.

I just spent the better part of five minutes opening every rom thread going back three pages in the dev forum. I think I may have broken Chrome with all these tabs open. Furthermore I've installed just about all of these roms, and so far I've yet to have been required to break out my credit card.

I've yet to see a demand for payment. I've seen many requests. No demands.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many seem to mistakenly understand precisely what aspects of Android development are truly open. If you're talking proper development then you're talking AOSP, and practically the only game in town there is Cyanogen's team. This is not to disparage the real work done by cooks, who are to at least some degree doing some real developing. But it seems they are all for the most part keenly aware of the fact that they are playing around inside someone elses IP (remember certain parts of practically every single device are NOT open source), and thus realize that DEMANDING payment is a colossally bad idea.

Is this more about the politics behind why some cooks/skinners/devs think they DESERVE donations, rather than anyone making overt DEMANDS? There is a critical distinction here. Whether or not some think they deserve donations is a process involving crawling around inside of someone else's ego and ethical considerations and a bit of a train-wreck to complain about. Those sorts of situations are best simply ignored. It is like arguing with a signpost and a huge waste of time.

If I saw any evidence that this issue existed I'd be right there with you. But I don't see any. If there is *some* of this going on, then it's apparently quite easy to avoid, as I've done it without trying.

Development on this platform seems to be stronger than development on nearly any other recent phone, at least to my eyes and my efforts at trolling the wonderful world of XDA's HTC and Motorola dev forums. Perhaps I'm indulging in wishful thinking here, but I think this is an utter non-issue. Even if it were a real problem, it could only be solved by people not participating in it. Since neither seems to be occuring or necessary I'm gonna go back to eating my potato chips.

YUM!
[Vibrant General] wes342:
I agree with that 100%

P.S. I feel you deserve donations for your work no matter what you did.
[Vibrant General] Insomaniac10:
no one here is claiming have been been forced into anything, nor is anyone saying that this is a rampant issue throughout the Vibrant-XDA community. What is being said is that it has been seen a few times of late, and some people may be afraid that it will start trending and appearing more often.

You dont have to be punched in the face by something in order to simply notice it/know it exists. You can search all night and you may not find it, who knows. doesnt mean its not there. run through the posts on this thread, the vast majority of them have seen it (whether they agree with it or not is a different story).
[Vibrant General] Obi_Kwiet:
Just to be clear, I think donations are great, and simply asking for them is completely fine with the GPL.

However, this is about more than what we mind/like. We also have to respect the wishes of the people who created (most) of the code in these ROMs. If they don't want anyone requiring donations for access to the source, we need to respect that.
[Vibrant General] fearmonkey:
As is charging for the software. Yes, you can charge a fee for GPL'd software.
[Vibrant General] masterotaku:
My only issue here is that your original post indicated that this was becoming more common. It doesn't appear this way to me. I assume our definitions of words like "rampant" and "common" appear to be quite different. I apologize for assuming what you meant was what I did.

Now there are some overly zealous open purists who would likely think that asking for anything at all is counter to the whole concept of open development. This is not only naive, it is idiotic. When such people find that utopia where ones time isn't worth anything (monetary or otherwise) let me know. :)

You also indicated that you feel donations are turning into payments. This is why I made the critical distinction about this being an evolving politic about what people FEEL about the work they do, and why it's generally a waste of time to give the egocentric ones attention (or your money).

The only way this would ruin anything is if people were actually buying into this and development turned into this "business" you see.

What is *really* going on in my opinion is the maturing of a community and the teething troubles that result when more and better development takes place. Shipping 300,000 phones a day indicates that this has grown beyond the scope of a handful of somewhat over-zealous open source purists who were involved in all of this when it started two years ago on far simpler devices and versions of Android.

When more people get involved in something there are simply more opportunities for those people to have an opinion about what their time is worth. Why is there anything wrong with that? Agreeing or disagreeing with that opinion is the choice one faces. And I don't see that anyone has taken that choice away.
[Vibrant General] Kubernetes:
I find this nonsensical. You're making a very subjective call on what is worthy of donation and what is not. You personally see the architect as more worthy than the painter, but not everyone thinks the way you do. The only thing that makes a dev, a winzipper, a themer, etc., worthy of a donation is the opinion of the one doing the donating. It's a one-to-one transaction and personally I don't think we have reason to criticize people who do this voluntarily. I personally wasn't a fan of KangKlick's monthly subscription scheme, but hey, I'm sure lots of people were happy to enter into that arrangement. What shall we do, express our moral outrage? It's pointless. We're all adults and accountable only to ourselves.
[Vibrant General] kaine13x7:
For those saying that developers deserve more donations than a themer or "painter" are wrong. Who are you to say changing code is easier than making art? I think its the other way around. My problem is these ROM's that are made claiming to be an overhaul when in fact it is just theme changes, yet they neglect to call it that. Proper changelogs are so important yet so few do them right. Once again someone asking for a donation is completely different than forcing someone to pay for a product that only people who pay have access to.

If you want to donate great, if you don't that's great as well. But to alter anothers work and forcing someone to pay in order to have exclusive access to something that the non paying public won't get is wrong.
[Vibrant General] rsfaze:
ok using this point, who says that painting takes more time than actually developing something? I guess that comes down to how efficient you are at developing or painting, because either could take a novice alot of time to do.