yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Vibrant Android Development] wacky.banana:
Yes, valid points which I picked up on from your earlier post. This is precisely why this rule is there, to stop the scenarios that you have just painted from happening.

We fully appreciate that developers want to show some appreciation to those who have donated. However giving them access to say, early releases is like a red rag to a bull. Also the line between a developer showing appreciation in this way and risking being accused of selling or creating donateware is so fine that its not worth going there.

If I was a developer I would simply write to my donators thanking them and, say, alerting them to the fact that a general release for all will be out soon and/or putting the donators names up in lights in my thread as a mark of appreciation.

Anything else just spells trouble.

WB
[Vibrant Android Development] MWBehr:
While I realize that you can't control what the Devs do with their personal websites, you still have the power to repremand them for what is obviously still a rules violation. You can't force them to take down their donator sections, but you can threaten them with a ban if they continue the behaviour.

I doubt you'd ever have to do anything more than point it out to them as long as you catch it early before tempers start to flare over it.
[Vibrant Android Development] turtleman13:
I agree but i can see that this has not been the case. There was an issue where a developer stated that he was going to start working on getting a sense rom working on the vibrant which myself i was also interested in and other dev stated they would help.There was a meeting about the project and it was deemed too much work and that it would still be buggy. But one person made a donation of $50 to the dev (I could guess to help movitvate the dev) and the dev abandon the project. Leaving the donee feeling a way about it.
[Vibrant Android Development] blueman9:
Can you please make the report a post button more clearly placed? Like right next to the Thanks button? I just spent 5 minutes looking at a post trying to find the button, and was halfway through a post to ask where said button was when I noticed it hiding up there next to the post number.

I have been with XDA since the G1 came out, and I don't post much (I try to find answers before I do) but I would gladly sit there and report posts all day if I had known that little button existed.
[Vibrant Android Development] NotATreoFan:
Rule 11 comes into play here.

While we cannot prevent developers from having a paid section on their personal websites, we do have rules in place that strictly forbid any linking to the site in question if this type of content exists. The biggest issue with enforcement however is that there are not enough Mods to police every thread/ROM that may be in violation of this without the help of our community. If you see someone breaking the rule, report it to us, and we will deal with it promptly.
[Vibrant Android Development] YatimaMeiji:
I have to admit I'm simply a browser of the dev forums for two reasons 1) yes I'm afraid of being looked down upon, flamed, etc for asking/saying the wrong thing and 2) its just crazy to have a thread that is 500+ pages and expect someone, especially someone new(noob while fun, I think gets used in a rather derogatory form) to read/search through the whole thing.

Its my view that we have rules and they should be enforced. I'm all for the hard line approach, especially when it reaches a level where there has to be a community meeting on the issue. The ban hammer is just one of many tools the mods have, and like any tool, the user shouldn't be afraid to use it. Rules are there for a reason and should be enforced at all times.

Thats the simple solution, a longer term solution would be to add more thread tools to vote up/down individual posts in a thread, and I think a good idea would be able to identify posts as a solution and make it visible on the first page of a thread, like a table of contents. It shouldn't always be up to the one who started the thread to go back and edit the post. In the same way we have forum mods, why not let the author identify a thread mod that also has to ability to identify and organize the posts that are gems of information that users would be looking for.

Also reading through here, I agree that maybe when a dev comes out with a new release, start a new thread. Even with all the tools in the world, 500+, 700+ or more! is just too much. To really expect someone to read through that is not realistic, and to any devs that do, bless you.
[Vibrant Android Development] NotATreoFan:
This is a perfect example of why we do not permit upfront donations. If you want to support someone's work, it should never be done until something tangible has shown up in your hands (or on your phone in this case). This is also the main reason that we have began to shut down so-called "bounty" threads in recent months. People would promise something in exchange for money, and most times nothing would come of it, and that would just piss people off more.
[Vibrant Android Development] Master™:
Alright, sorry I have just woken up & I have to go to work soon.

Here is the thread where someone had requested the "New ROM version, new thread" idea

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=870206

The problem with that for me is, I have the main post. It shows you how to flash (video), It shows you the cool features, and it shows you the download link.

The second post is for change-logs/what has been fixed in each version.

The third is for F.A.Qs

The main deal with that is, people flash w/o reading. They read the features, then skim all the way down to the bottom and download it. They don't look at the change log usually and see what has been fixed, or read the FAQ & come ask questions.. But there happen to be some people who just flame them saying "God, can't you search?!?!" While I agree at some point, it is totally useless for those posts & they just need to be reported, and I believe that is why most 'n00bs' are scared to post because of the flaming.

Also, when it comes to the Q&A.. I have seen it several times when someone asks a question like "Help, OMG I bricked my phone!"

Some people are quick to come and help, but others seem to post the exact thing said above; "Can't you search?!"

I think there needs to have that thread stickied that shows you what to do if you have a hb (Hard-Brick) or sb (Soft-Brick) that someone made in the general section once..

Alright, have to get ready & get dressed. I will try to log-on and look around while at work.:cool:

Thanks:D
[Vibrant Android Development] wacky.banana:
I am sorry to hear that. In this instance, someone obviously wanted to support the development up front. That was the individuals choice as, in this instance, there was no guarantee that donating would produce a technical solution so they, in effect, took a risk.

If people do not donate until what has been promised or expected has been delivered, then this kind of situation would be avoided, same as the other scenarios we discussed earlier.

No matter how many rules we have in place, their success largely depends on people following/buying into those rules and the spirit of those rules.

Donations on XDA have always been meant as a mechanism to say thank you for something delivered/the hard work put in for something delivered. Its a shame that sometimes people ignore this important aspect of the donations mechanism.

WB
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
Very good post... thank you. First of, sorry for posting in dev (I can move this to General if you all feel more comfortable).

I think that a good way to address the excuses for not searching would be to get the devs to make a new thread when new versions are released and link to the old one just in case someone wants to revert back.

Asking questions is the heart and soul of this place. While it looks cluttery and annoying to see "battery life" or "best rom" questions, it should be of no concern to whomever is not interested in answering.

As far as the cults, as you said, nothing to be done except asking the fanboys to not pollute "competitor" threads.

Devs leaving... many devs leave this place for a wide variety of reasons. The vast majority get tired of the bashing, flaming, and OT rants all over their threads. A few others because they break rules, get banned for a short while, and because they are hurt (cause they got caught) decide to pack and leave. We cannot prevent people from leaving, but addressing many of the stated points so far, will certainly help in a few not having to consider this.

Sorry for using the term.

Again, the kanging could be easily prevented by having devs (or themers) stick to Rule 12 (ask for permission and give credit where its due). Also, making a note in the OP that the rom is not their creation might do wonders as well.
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
I just thought I'd laugh at this. Not at your expense, or at you, but that I'd never thought people weren't aware of the report button.

For anyone not aware, the button with a triangle and exclamation point "!" is the report post button, and will file a report with mods.

We can't act instantly, as we are human (well for the most-part), but we will act as soon as we can.
[Vibrant Android Development] Dougefresh91:
I too never noticed the report button.
[Vibrant Android Development] golmar88:
"In short, if you want a fully functioning phone with little to no issues, run stock. If you are willing to run the risk of certain minor aspects not working in exchange for better overall performance, then welcome to XDA, but you cannot complain and call something crap when you were warned well in advance."

I think this sums it up best.^^^

I wish there was some way to let new people* know right off the bat to do research and that the wiki exists. I know that there are, but it's not getting through to them. If there was a way that when you first sign up to xda you have to either watch a video, or for the first 10 times you sign in, read a disclaimer giving a few rules and tips. Just thinking out loud. I know when I first started I was the worlds worst at posting stupid crap in the total wrong section. I've been on cm forum for about a year, and was scared to try xda. Then once I learned, (a little, not much) I rarely have to post. I would say 80% of my post were in my first 2 months. So there is deff. a learning curve to get over to learn how to search and what to search for.

I have several friends that now have samsungs, and always come to me with ques. I'm almost scared to send them here, afraid they they will get flamed and it will turn them off to modding. I always tell them search as much as you can before asking, cause you will get told about it if you ask something stupid. I think that is driving traffic away from xda. Any other forum you go to you will see a comment on "how bad xda has got".

When I first signed up I put in my info and started posting. Is there a way to force a new member to read something before posting? I hate it when I see a new member get burned over something stupid. Then I cant post links to help either cause I'm a "junior member".

*edit: Feel free to call me a n00b, thats what I am. But if it offends I will no longer use the term.
[Vibrant Android Development] krook6023:
I think anything we (XDA) can do to let members know of the "report this post" button would be a great move.

Maybe egzthunder1 could use the portal to spread the word?
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
Really good post. This is a very thin line, one which a lot of devs cross (some of them intentionally and some unintentionally)

Donations in liue of work (early betas or what have you) is not allowed. If the dev decides to share his early work with people who donate, that is a different story. The break point comes when the dev states that he/she will share his early work with Donators. That is where we draw the line.

I hope this one is clear enough...
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
Reply in the quote in red
[Vibrant Android Development] ScratchSF:
I think that if a main thread where limited to something like this, it would be great! This approach is clearly useful. However, we would still need to address the 2000 additional postings that follow these three postings, which is where things get difficult to follow.
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
That is the problem. People expect things in exchange for Donations... that is not what a donation is. In their mind, they are thinking that they are paying for a service, even if they tell themselves it is a Donation. This is the kind of mentality that needs to change regarding the whole Donations issue.
[Vibrant Android Development] wacky.banana:
Report Button

Fed this upwards for review and action.

WB
[Vibrant Android Development] lezouave:
I have been using xda since the mda wizard days and have been really disappointed about the tone here over the past few months, so I am quite happy to see this thread.

I think the entire problem is one of the culture of the group. This is derived from the sheer numbers of people who own Android phones, and sad to say, the lowest common denominator reality- the same exaggerated sense of entitlement that is part of the consumerist mentality we see in the world.

These individuals (I use the term loosely) see everything as a product for their consumption, and the producers of the product bear all responsibility for every aspect of its use, even those parts not under the producer's control.

I think the only way an improvement can come to these forums is to have an aggressive campaign to flag, edit and delete off topic posts in order to train users in better culture.

In regard to donations, if xda is to be non-commercial then any incentive to donate aside from simple generosity must be completely disallowed.

In regard to the repetitive questions, well, someone needs to create a FAQ for the forum. That person would get tons of thanks and feel great about it.
[Vibrant Android Development] Master™:
I think that could be cleared up with a new rule..

"If you would like to say thanks to a dev for his/her work, please do not comment in the thread saying 'thank you' etc, there is a thanks button that you can press. The dev threads are for bug reports/fixing only"

Or something to that matter.
[Vibrant Android Development] lezouave:
+1 to that.
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
Well, this is an issue I hadn't thought of before... The moving of the button as suggested before would probably be bad imho, as it would give us more accidental reports from people clicking it instead of reply.

More accidental reports gives us more to filter through, resulting in less time to deal with the "intentional" reports.

Regarding the term n00b or newb, as I understand there's two terms.

A newbie is a term for someone who is new and learning the ropes. They are generally welcomed everywhere, and I believe XDA is welcoming of newbies. I haven't been about long in the grand scheme of things (1 year), but I remember when I joined XDA. I was a newbie. I read the wiki, I edited it a bit. I read the guides. I then re-read them. I read the wiki. I re-read the guides. I read all the OPs of the ROM posts. I read the dev stickies about tweaking ROMs (even though I didn't understand it). I then googled things...

To let you know where I started from, I didn't know what the abbreviation "RUU" stood for. (it's like an ODIN packaged ROM for HTC phones, for anyone who wonders. It's how HTC flash phones in for repair). Rather than make a thread in dev called "OMG what is ruu?", I googled it. Nothing came up. So I added "site:xda-developers.com" to the query, and found the answer right away :)

People who are newbies will quickly progress up, and I was building ROMs withing 4 weeks of first visiting the site (I had actually modified a ROM before getting my phone, so I didn't have to even use stock - I flashed my ROM straight out the box after a backup, and amazingly it worked. All I had done was remove some apks and tweak a few settings I had read about in stickies, but that was my "transition" from newbie complete in 4 weeks :)

On the other hand, someone who is new, but doesn't want to follow the established decorum and "house rules" of a site is often called a n00b or noob. Likely to derail a thread with questions already asked 1000s of times, or to get on the backs of other members with poor forum etiquette, and highly time consuming, yet very basic questions, a noob is traditionally someone who is interested solely in coming to answer a question, and then leaving.

If XDA still allowed guest users to post with a captcha being filled in, I reckon the majority of new folk posting as guest would be here to get some info, yet the majority who had registered would be here to help out in return.

Newbies are welcome and we were all one once. Hopefully we're not noobs though. People who are here contributing to a good, civilised discussion like this one are evidently not just in it for a quick answer (noobs), so just remember that low post count != n00b.
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
Noted down for our action items...
[Vibrant Android Development] Captainkrtek:
I don't think that requires a rule but more of a general practice from the users, we are already seeing lots of users using the button. Any more rules on our end as mods make dealing with issues trickier. Just my cents, great discussion so far
[Vibrant Android Development] gagb1967:
Issues

I have noticed that we have people that opens an account and 5 minutes later is posting in Dev section and flaming people, over an d over again.

Maybe, as an idea, people that is new, or have no posts or something like that , should be limited to post in Dev section, either by time or posts.

Dev is basically to post by developers, beta testers and the likes, to report bugs and tech. exchange, not to ask about odin, cw and the likes.

There is a point when you get tired of going over 100 pages of non sense

If somebody have those kind of questions, they should not be in the devs section.

Maybe a basic "test" to be passed to have access to post in DEV section if it is a new member (less than 2 weeks or 5 posts for example??)

I would say add a "report a comment", but i understand that it will be another way to flame, getting posts deleted.
[Vibrant Android Development] Master™:
I have seen maybe 1 new user do that.. The rest are always senior members..

Correct me if I am wrong.:o
[Vibrant Android Development] jmcghee1973:
I'm curious if XDA can actually regulate what a DEV does on his/her own site? I can agree with regulating the way a DEV acquires donations on the XDA site but not on a personal website.

I am not in agreement with donating to an "OPEN SOURCE" project where I have to pay to receive certain ammenities. To me, that defeats the purpose of it being "OPEN SOURCE." I believe everyone should have equal opportunity and equal advantages. The DEV aren't paying for SOURCE....

One other problem that I don't agree with is DEV and members alike flaming each other in posts. It may be that DEV have a bad taste in their mouths for each other but they should respect the community and carry out their disagreements in private not in the public eye...and the same should go for their followers. We shouldn't have to read post after post where DEV and followers are posting insults and rants on opposing DEV ROM pages and nor it be posted on their own pages. This has always been a tremendous hinderence in open source projects and why it has always been so hard for it to forge ahead.
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
@Master

Capt is right here. We cannot add rules for each feature that gets added. Instead, since your idea is not bad, maybe we can add this as a suggestion in a General sticky on top of dev fora...
[Vibrant Android Development] TheSneakerWhore:
One quick suggestion for the dev thread:

Beta roms: let the thread roll like normal

Final roms: Sticky them!

It is very confusing (especially to someone like me that likes to play it safe) when there are 7 betas, and the final version is still labeled a beta, or not re-labeled at all. Many of us are a lil hesitant to jump on an early beta, but will gladly flash finals all day long. Maybe a Final [ROM] sticky that most noobs could enter and feel confident about flashing content inside?

With this section growing so fast, it is easy for a noob to just jump into a beta release and not realize that the rom may not be fully stable, which leads to 100's of pages of questions already answered.

My $0.02
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
Being looked into by the Mod Team...
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
This report feature exists already, and is shown below:

Just ignore all the other buttons and stuff, it is in the same place for all of you if you are a registered (logged in) user.
[Vibrant Android Development] MWBehr:
So I gather that forum restructuring is out of the question then. I have to say, though, that I really think it would help a lot. I've seen many different forums that are structured the same way and have the same problems.

You have the main section that everyone cares about an has bookmarked (Development in this case) and you have the other threads that everyone is supposed to post the stuff that people don't care about much at all (General and Q&A). The same thing always happens in the end. People learn that post in the main section (Development) will get them a much quicker response than posting elsewhere all for the low price of a little flaming.
[Vibrant Android Development] TGA_Gunnman:
I have noticed this as well. People will come in new and begin to harass. They say "when they get banned they will just sign back up for a new account and harass again. That the MODS can't stop them."

Something needs to be done.
[Vibrant Android Development] Androidawg:
Some ideas

The Bible is an excellent directory for new folks to read. EVERY dev post with a new ROM or tool should simply include a link to it and it should be updated and managed responsibly. Folks logging on can see in the DEV post "Need to know how to root and flash a new ROM? Click here" Also Devs can probably save themselves some hassle as well. If posting a new kernel update, then include some results of testing. i.e. - "in testing battery lasted 6 hours", etc. We all know what questions are gonna start showing up over and over, just include some test results in the OP.
[Vibrant Android Development] blueman9:
General and Q&A

Do we really need separate General and Q&A sub-forums? I kinda think of them as one and the same. If I have a question or a problem I go to the General section. Having both is IMHO too much to look through to find your answer. Maybe someone can explain to me the difference.
[Vibrant Android Development] oka1:
Maybe but Disagree...... for this reason

Although, I agree of the statement that devs might be accused of "selling their new rom" the fact is almost every devs I ever have met has a group of people they release their roms early to whether they advertise that or not. What I see is such a diversity of people in the forum, there is no way to control their behavior. So, regardless of whether something is free, or someone got it first, there is Always a small group that start problems. some do this because of loyalty to a particular devs, some do it because they do not like a particular dev and some just do it because that is their low-class nature.

The Devs are at a disadvantage no matter what they do. They keep it on their website private and some troll grabs the information and blasts it all over this site creating problems......and ultimately, the dev essentially gets the blame (though not really his/her fault). I agree with the earlier post about the adolescents in the forum causing most of the problems, and agree that reacting to flame-baiting just makes it worse, BUT I have to tell you I find the flamers and kids behavior very frustrating..........but that said, this goes with the territory. bit of a rant sorry......... lots of pent-up feelings about this......