yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Vibrant Android Development] zaphod_fl:
As a relative 'n00b' to XDA (but one with some development and experimentation experience) I would like to chime in on a couple of things (after reading quite a few posts in this thread)...

(1) Many Vibrant users are coming to XDA *because* Samsung and T-Mobile failed us. They delivered crap software. Many of the people on this forum have taken it upon themselves to make it better. If they are considered "Dev's" or not is immaterial... they have made my purchase useful and I am thankful (sombionix, Eugene, master just to name a few). Samsung and T-Mobile could learn a lot from what goes on here.

(2) I agree that the forums get crowded with "My GPS is not working" or "This ROM sucks because .... (lags, camera doesn't work, etc.)" which is bull. I usually ask a dev in a PM and assume that it is my fault (I did something wrong) and have abandoned some ROM's because, for whatever reason, it would not run on my hardware. This is indicative of a larger problem in that there are slight hardware differences between the phones and H/W QC is not as good as it should be. Samsung needs better change management on this side. Also everyone run's slightly different variants on their phone and many different things (variables) can affect if a modified ROM runs for you or not. As a given anyone who runs a modified ROM should be not only able but willing to provide a logcat for any FC's that they see. But prior to that they should understand the basics that they need to go back to the stock ROM, then to the custom ROM without any mods that they put on it before they accuse the Developer of not testing it. That is just wrong.

(3) Assume that running a custom ROM is all on you. You should always have a fall back position. I carry my old 2G iPhone around (and have had to use it) when I totally hosed my Vibrant. If you are not willing to deal with some of the pain then stay on stock. PERIOD.

(4) I agree with the comments made earlier about the hundreds of posts in a single thread which is also part of why some devs have setup their own environments. They can use bug reporting tools and tracking tools outside of this forum. Perhaps that should be considered the 'Norm' and XDA should just have pointers to those systems so that it can get back to doing what it does best... disseminate information and connect people. My 2 cents on that subject.

I also would second the thoughts on more structured release threads and some severe warnings to people who jump into ROM flashing (because this platform makes it so stinking easy) without understanding the risks. Anyone who flames a dev for something not working does not get it.
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
I don't like the idea of sticking ROMs, for the simple reason that large numbers of stickies make the forum look unintelligible... The beta ROMs are always clearly marked, and everything on XDA should be treated as such IMHO.

If a developer doesn't want to call it final, then fair enough... But reading the OP should make it clear in most cases I've seen.

Samsung spend hours testing ROMs properly. Devs here release when they feel ready to. It's a risk you take. I've never seen someone disguising a ROM is a beta, and we shouldn't dismiss them because of it. The longest I ever went without flashing a ROM was 2 months, and during that time the ROM remained beta and "highly experimental" yet was perfectly good for daily use.

Personally though, I think if someone flashes a ROM without reading the ENTIRE first post, then they have nobody to blame but themselves alone for what follows... If they have bugs addressed in the OP that they can't bear with, then that's not the developer that needs to adjust or change... It's the reader.
[Vibrant Android Development] Zylograth:
How quickly is a reported post handled?
[Vibrant Android Development] zaphod_fl:
+1 to that.
[Vibrant Android Development] zaphod_fl:
Didn't think about the forums being un-readable. How about a sticky for the "released" Rom's from a dev /dev team that is updated regularly. And it points to a link for the download? Then a thread for bug reporting or external system for bug reporting (with link)
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
We have no authority over what people do in their own sites, but we have authority to prevent linking to those sites if they are breaking our rules.
[Vibrant Android Development] Zylograth:
I don't think ROMs should be stickied seeing as there are so many ROMs out there the whole first page would be full of ROMs. If a ROM is popular and stable then it usually stays on the front page until it is replaced with a newer version or build and the popularity changes.
[Vibrant Android Development] TomorrowSpace:
The most frustrating thing to me really isn't the flaming, it's the lack of organization. It seems like there is too much going on in the Dev forum. Don't get me wrong, the majority of what is there is appropriate for the title I guess, but it's really hard to find anything without having to wade through pages of unrelated (to what you're looking for) topics.

Can't we just start a ROM post and post all your ROMS in there, or at least a link to the ROM post or something like that. Do the same for MODS and KERNELS. almyz125 does his thing on the Bible, but I'm sure he has a life and it's hard for one person to keep up with. This would make it alot easier for us to find stuff. If it's easier to find, maybe people will quit asking noob questions and just open their eyes :)

edit: no flame, I was in the middle of typing all that while everyone else was typing the rest up there (great minds think alike maybe)
[Vibrant Android Development] TheSneakerWhore:
My issue with it was when the Devs went to their own sites, and this forum kind of remains a bit behind on the title updates/rom updates. I can hold my own when flashing, but many noobs cannot, thus leading to soft-bricks and flamewars.
[Vibrant Android Development] TheSneakerWhore:
I meant using one sticky for someone to keep just final roms on.
[Vibrant Android Development] INeFFeCTiVE:
Here is the way a new ROM post is laid out.

Release info and useful hints 2%

"thanks" and "you're the man" 60 - 75%

"hows the battery life and GPS" and "i don't get signal in my Faraday cage" 25 - 30%

"how do i flash this" 20%

"useful questions that get flamed" 30%

total pages 9000+

How can anyone expect to find anything? I rarely post and i do my due diligence to search for things, but wading through the muck on this site is exhausting sometimes. I am not sure how moderating a forum works exactly but some one should delete the irrelevant crap that goes through. When i ask a question it shouldn't be instantly met with you effing noob use the search or gtfo. I thought the point of developing was that you were solving a problem.

On that note, is there a place to post suggestions for DEV's cause i think that would be useful. Then they can read it or not... just a thought.
[Vibrant Android Development] Captainkrtek:
Depends on how often the acting moderator in that forum reacts to it. I see all my RP's on an hourly basis except when im sleeping. Once we see them it only takes a few minutes to action if they are something small like moving a thread :)
[Vibrant Android Development] Captainkrtek:
If it becomes a repeat issue with users making multiple accounts we CAN stop that
[Vibrant Android Development] zaphod_fl:
+1, which is why so many people have trouble finding answers because they get clobbered with HUGE post counts. Perhaps a "FAQ" for each ROM? Each ROM has three threads: 1. Release thread, 2. Bug thread, 3. FAQ's for the ROM. ?
[Vibrant Android Development] jmcghee1973:
A nice

DEV posts ROM

Post is locked

Bug Reporting process page posted on ROM post

DEV is only reporting figure to address Bug Reports on ROM post

Would be exceptional imho
[Vibrant Android Development] MWBehr:
Yup, my thoughts exactly. I was thinking it would be nice to scratch all existing sections and have instead:

Roms (Require attachement for new thread)

Kernels (Require attachement for new thread)

Themes (Require attachement for new thread)

Mods (Require attachement for new thread)

Q&A

Think Tank

Announcements

Anything else?
[Vibrant Android Development] Master™:
140%? lol.. Sorry, those were just high numbers.. :D

For your first question, the search is a very easy tool, you pretty much sum up what you were going to ask in that specific thread and press enter.. It will come up with what you want if it is there.

Second one, that is pretty much what I said back some.. It is completely crazy when someone flames you for asking a question, even if that person did need to search, the person who flamed the other can always get reported...

Fourth, PM. Most devs won't respond unless they see something that they wouldn't mind doing.. There are also there personal sites
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
We have always had this discussion with other mods... and the answer is... we are not sure :rolleyes:
[Vibrant Android Development] INeFFeCTiVE:
+1 I agree. Lock the ROM page if you want to thank press the THANK YOU BUTTON!. Then post questions in separate page. The forum has a feature that alerts you to similar questions before posting and that should keep the size of the post down.
[Vibrant Android Development] sirphunkee:
Usually w/in a few hours at most, assuming it's one that can be handled simply. The "report this post" feature creates a log that is visible to all mods, not just the ones in the section that the report came from. This way, if the mod(s) assigned to that particular section aren't available immediately, one of the senior mods can jump in and take whatever action is necessary
[Vibrant Android Development] TomorrowSpace:
If we go with the sticky posts for ROMS only Devs should be allowed to post in there. All other nonsense posts should be deleted to keep it small and simple. The original post that is linked in the sticky can be reserved for thanks and associated banter in my humble opinion :) .
[Vibrant Android Development] Zylograth:
I have been a member here for awhile, and have found massive amounts of help for each of my phones. I am really glad to have a site like this where information regarding this subject is in one location and mostly easy to find. When I bought my Vibrant it was my first foray out of Windows Mobile territory and the information here helped me quickly acclimate to the new OS and after about 1 month of owning the phone I was right back to flashing ROMs and modifications.

This is a great site and I think the veterans and noobs both contribute to a lot of the flaming. Veterans know the information is out there it just has to be found and noobs most often will just ask a question rather than search for the answer. This is not limited to this site however, it is life. New users will ask questions rather than search as is the human condition, I think it falls on the veterans to either ignore such posts or to answer the question, be helpful, and remind them that you found their answer by searching the forums which is something they can do as well to get a quicker answer than waiting for someone else to post.
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
To put things in perspective, we get anywhere between 100 and 200 RP every day and we try to address them within a day, unless the case calls for an investigation, which may take longer (rom kanging, stealing other's work, requiring donations, etc)
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
Already noted as an action item...
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
It depends, but any Senior Mod can act on an RP in any forum. We tend to try and act on them ASAP though, but if we get inundated, we have to prioritise the serious issues first, obviously.
[Vibrant Android Development] TomorrowSpace:
I agree completely, but I also think ultimately it can be reduced by making it easier to get to the information. Smarter people don't ask questions if the answer is right in front of them. I will read through a few pages before I ask questions. Regardless of the amount of info I read if I didn't read the right place and "Mr. Know-it-all" did, I'm going to get flamed. That's really the way it works. I'm cool with that because I like the forum so much. But a little help preventing it would be cool.
[Vibrant Android Development] TGA_Gunnman:
Let's face it. I don't know if it is society in the US changing or what, but a lot of members of XDA are very rude and unappreciative. People bring their bad days or what have you to this forum and dump on others.

Controlling others behavior is going to be a real problem facing XDA. Cyanogen's Team Douch and several other teams have pretty much stated that they hate getting on XDA because of the people on here.

So we can expect that there will be alot of developers leaving XDA and the only way to get their ROMS through here will be to hit unaffiliated posts. If you remove the unaffiliated posts then no one on XDA will be able to link to the good roms.

I think XDA should charge $1 a month to credit cards and base your membership off of that. In other words you can not post unless you pay and your a member but you can browse for free.

If you get out of line you will be banned based by you credit card and billing address.

That should not only help XDA with administrative fees but also make it so people can't break the rules without consequences.

This is how Kali did it in the past and it was a great group.
[Vibrant Android Development] wacky.banana:
This one is a revolving door, driven by the need to make the fora as clean/easy as possible for users to use but also driven by user request. So for every post that says what you have just said (valid point, btw) I could probably show you another that says the opposite. IIRC we saw a reported post only yesterday asking for the General section of a particular device to be split as users were becoming disenfranchised with the clutter (their words, not mine).

My personal view is that where you have a popular device generating literally hundreds of questions, it is best to have a separate Q&A so the other stuff does not get lost in the noise.

WB
[Vibrant Android Development] dglowen23:
Yes, Veterans do a fair share of flaming especially at the noobs but only because noobs need to understand that there are different sections for the phone for a reason. if they have a question they should immediatley go to the Q&A section, because not only does it make sense to ask questions there but i garuntee they will get a faster response then if they post in the development section. Theres not much we can do to fix this because noobs are very hard headed so instead of flaming every single post in the wrong section we should just inform them that they are in the wrong section
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
So, multiple review stickies maybe for organization's sake? It would have to be a community effort as we have not enough resources (mods) to handle this. A good alternative (and I have seen this done), is to have a sub section in the device's Wiki page for releases and kernels. Look at the EVO Wiki for example...
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
Well... The trouble with this is that the moment someone new appears and doesn't know what ROM they're all talking about, you've got people following wrong instructions.

There seem to be 2 views here: 1 for a new thread for every version, to stop huge threads forming that are 9000 pages long, and the other for one thread for any one dev/group.

TBH I think the former is easier to implement from a user perspective.

Regarding a sticky, that puts a fair load onto the one person who can update it. Not sure who would be able to do that regularly...
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
Ummmm... Why would I need an attachment for a ROM, kernel, theme or mod?

XDA doesn't allow roms to be uploaded here, and they wouldn't fit in your attachment quota, or even in the mod attachment quota.
[Vibrant Android Development] mmelo76:
Well I'm assuming this forum as a contributor ....

Indeed, the unnecessary posts, flames, Citation flames, fights, etc. will be deleted without notice.

I'm still adjusting to the general behavior of this forum.

But I have noticed that the questions are not in place, already moved more than 8-10 thread at least a few hours ...

I hope to keep a clean, pleasant and friendly as possible.

For Noobs, read the rules when in doubt, read it again, if you still do not understand, they can choose:

1 - Read the rules again

2 - Do not post here.

Senior user to remain calm and patient with noobs, remember that we used to!
[Vibrant Android Development] mmelo76:
I had asked Mike to see if we could join Q & A and general. Getting a single section: General.
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
While it is possible, it would be a logistical nightmare. Besides, most of the other device fora work quite well with the current format. There is occasional flaming and posting in the wrong place, but nothing like this section.
[Vibrant Android Development] MWBehr:
Good point, was trying to think of a way to prevent needless new threads in a section that's meant to be reserved only for actual tangible releases. Only thing I can say there is that almost every single rom thread here has an attachment associated with it already, although generally only images.
[Vibrant Android Development] dglowen23:
i remember back when i had my G1 i heard about XDA and so i joined and was a typical noob and asked questions in the development section, people were very nice to me and explained that my question shood go in the Q&A section.. never got flamed and i learned a lot faster to go to the right section to keep the forum organized. A nice easy and calm approach to the noobs will probably make them learn a lot faster then if we flame then world war 3 starts in the forums and while it is funny its also frustrating when the development section gets filled up with questions
[Vibrant Android Development] TomorrowSpace:
No, this is what I'm thinking:

Dev Forum

Post: [ROMS] (or beta ROMS too) only ROM Devs are allowed to post in there. 1 post per ROM. Their post contains a link to their [ROM] posting in the DEV forum. (Maybe some light product info too)

Post: [KERNELS] (or beta KERNELS too) only KERNEL Devs are allowed to post in there. 1 post per KERNEL. Their post contains a link to their [KERNEL] posting in the DEV forum. (Maybe some light product info too)

The same thing can be done for [MODS] and [THEMES] also. Basically it's just a link post that makes it easier to find things and not only 1 person is in charge of keeping it going. Each Dev actually keeps it going. The only thing the Mods have to do is delete all the non Dev posts.
[Vibrant Android Development] overground:
Read...

Before I became a mod, my post count was somewhere in the 800's. You could count the number of threads I started on one hand. I read / searched / read more.

Problem comes down to n00b's (most, not all) wanting instant gratification which is in essence, laziness. 99.9999% of the time, your question has already been answered, and if not, there is already a thread in place where it would be appropriate to ask that question. Starting a new thread for a question is 99.9999% not the answer.
[Vibrant Android Development] NotATreoFan:
While not going so far as 7 sub-forums, I can say that there has been behind the scenes discussion about a ROMs-only forum for each device that would have restricted posting abilities. Because of the sheer size of XDA, something like this would not be easy to implement, but anything that ultimately makes the site better is being considered.
[Vibrant Android Development] pulser_g2:
Well, it's a fair point, but I'd be relying on mod rights being able to override that, as I don't use attachments... I just hold them on my server and link as required...

Same for screenies, or dropbox occasionally.

The point is a very fair one though, and I think there are plenty of ways to achieve that. But perhaps requiring the content by attachment is not the best way to detect?

What about a usergroup of "devs" who can post in this ROM forum, and those not on the list can only read?
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
That is where the flaming starts. If you want to inform them, maybe a quick, gentle pm is in order. Posting in their threads normally opens the doors to flaming for some reason.

Again, telling someone "wrong section" or "search" is not helpful and are usually opening statements for "you stupid m0r0n, can't you read?"
[Vibrant Android Development] INeFFeCTiVE:
Q.Q. How will it be determined who is a "DEV". That seems to be more of a nightmare. I think you are on the right track though. I just think that it may upset people when we say who is and is not a developer. ;)
[Vibrant Android Development] jmcghee1973:
like what I said here
[Vibrant Android Development] TGA_Gunnman:
MODS, If you missed it please read my previous post.
[Vibrant Android Development] rondey-:
I think if all members would simply be as quick to help as they are to flash a new rom would greatly benefit our community. The majority of posts placed in the wrong section (ie questions in the development section) are done so on purpose to get a faster response. If we had more knowledgeable members who would take the time to browse and help in the Q&A or general sections instead of "chatting" or posting off topic material in the development threads we would see less clutter in the development section. That would not only benefit those who search and read before posting questions so they would not have to sift through everything not related but also hopefully get people to post questions in the right section.
[Vibrant Android Development] MWBehr:
Obviously I'm from the outside looking in, but how would you go about determining who gets to join the ranks for the "devs" usergroup? I like the idea, I'm just thinking it would be a lot of work for you guys :)
[Vibrant Android Development] TomorrowSpace:
Easy, if you didn't post a ROM, KERNEL, THEME, or MOD you're not a Dev. The post is only links to posts with ROMS, or whatever you're posting (KERNEL, THEME, MOD, etc)
[Vibrant Android Development] dglowen23:
True.. but there is no other way of telling them to get out then to post in the thread. But my thoughts are if we calmly tell them that they are in the wrong section then maybe they will understand that there post belongs somewhere else.

then if they flame first, someone could report it to the mods and they could close/move the thread
[Vibrant Android Development] egzthunder1:
That is the main hurdle :)
[Vibrant Android Development] brnagndan:
I've been a lurker for a few months since the Vibrant released. I think a small thing that would definitely help with so many novice questions would be to reduce the time people are allowed to do another search. The 30 seconds limit seems too long especially when you're looking for a very specific thing and one search pulls up a hundred threads that are irrelevant.

I really like the idea others have mentioned of each rom having it's own section. It's pointless trying to go into threads and troubleshoot with all the erroneous posts of thanks, **** this rom, x is better than y, *cry cry* I can't install for another hour because of work! Think more strict moderation of what should actually be posted would be helpful.
[Vibrant Android Development] TomorrowSpace:
For the purposes of posting in the post you have to be posting a link to material, if you're not it doesn't matter who you are, it doesn't belong there. No feelings are going to get hurt. It's the way it is.
[Vibrant Android Development] INeFFeCTiVE:
Got it... I thought what you were saying was that you weren't alowed to post there unless you were on a predetermined "list" of DEV's. That would certainly cause problems and seems kinda apple-esque. :D
[Vibrant Android Development] wacky.banana:
If you mean the one about charging $1 per month for membership, comments noted.

WB