yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
You still miss the point! I do not ask when I can get froyo.... I do not ask if they work on it or drink a beer all day around...

I had concrete question, even narrowed down to the RIL in process of conversation. Nobody gave me meaningful answer to that question.

Let me restate question and start all over again.

If my phone works right now with 2.1 and whatever RIL is in phone, could we use that same RIL and sources from Google?

Beeing a programmer I know for sure that RIL API cannot change dramatically from version to version, otherwise it wouldn't be an abstraction layer.

Now, all I want to hear is direct, simple answer without throwing rocks into each other. And if somebody will tell me that RIL is not extractable, and because of this we have to use crappy source - I'm fine.

Is this so difficult? But I haven't seen anything close to this.
[Fascinate General] imnuts:
The RIL currently available doesn't work when used with an AOSP rom. I'm guessing it's due to the RIL being a hack-job, but I don't know for certain. There is an AOSP rom, but it doesn't work because it isn't communicating properly. It's stated somewhere that the current RIL is a mashup from Android 1.5 or 1.6 that was made to work with 2.1. Given this, it probably isn't talking to the current or updated Android system properly. If they could get a working RIL for 2.1, then they may be able to get 2.2 working easier than if they didn't have it. Again, I don't know as I'm not a developer, but the RIL is usually the biggest issue with ROMs as far as porting them or going for an AOSP rom from what I've seen.

EDIT: I also don't know if they can extract the RIL, but if it's causing problems, it's likely easier to try and fix it via the available (crappy) source than trying to hack the built package(s)
[Fascinate General] spodg:
Very interesting thread and thank you all for meaningful responses. Respect to CNemo7539's for patience and tolerance.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Thanks for patience!

That answer saddens me, because it feels like we will be in such pain with every version update.
[Fascinate General] imnuts:
I can't say for certain, but I would think that if they got a working RIL for 2.1 AOSP that it should make getting a working 2.2 AOSP build easier, and any subsequent builds as well. Hopefully the source code that is released when we do get Froyo will be better than what they released for the current ROM. The fact that the Nexus S is essentially a Galaxy S phone could make it easier to port things as well. Again, I have no idea if this will hold true or not, but I would think it should, and hope it does.
[Fascinate General] GoogleAndroid:
The rude replies here were unnecessary. He has a good question and a good point. How is it that Eris and Hero users were able to get Gingerbread ROMs, and we don't even have Froyo? I'm not complaining at all. I can wait. But I can understand where he's coming from. I'm sorry that I can't answer your question OP as I am not a dev and have very little knowledge on this stuff.

EDIT: And have you ever thought that if you give him a clear answer he could maybe help you guys out? Acting like that will just discourage new developers from coming to the Fascinate.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Yes much respect. So much patience that he called me a ****ing ass.

All I've heard from him is, I r a programmer, it aint that hard, when we tell him the issue.

But, much respect.
[Fascinate General] bbeaulieu:
While I wouldn't have used such colorful vocabulary, he has a point. If you're going to be sarcastic to a legitimate question, don't expect politeness back no matter what awesome work you've done on Android (which you have done). Internet forums were created for discussion. He wanted to discuss what specifically the setback is with the RIL and 2.2 in general. He never said it'd be easy or implied you guys aren't working hard.

Obviously, this sort of talk is over most of our heads, but we're just curious and want to know what specifically you guys are doing so we get a better handle on what's keeping you from accomplishing a goal (in this case the setback is with a crappy RIL supplied by Samsung).

It's kind of like when you go to an auto shop. Yes, the mechanic is doing most of the work, but you tend to ask the mechanic what was wrong and what he did to fix the issue to get a better understanding of your vehicle and auto repair in general. It's just good to have that knowledge.

What's great about posting here is that no one's forcing you to click that Reply button. If you can't handle the elementary discussion, just avoid it. No one here is trying to be your enemy.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
He was told the reason several times. He offered no solution, but instead expectation. Then he threw a temper tantrum because he rubbed some folks the wrong way and they replied accordingly...

But hey keep defending the lad. After all, I am a ****ing ass for a little sarcasm.

Signed,

The ****ing ass.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Let it be known that the problem is the ril.

Period. That is the problem.

Development discussion no longer happens on xda, but rather on irc. He is welcome to join #samsung-fascinate and talk to Birdman and jt1134 if he wants the nitty gritty.

There. No sarcasm, just a straight answer. It should be noted that the reason was said before already before the thread went downhill.

Signed,

The ****ing ass.
[Fascinate General] bbeaulieu:
I never said you were a ****ing ass, but thanks for the straight answer. We sort of had one earlier from imnuts but he wasn't positive on the issue since the big devs are birdman and jt, so it's good to hear it from you.

And now we also know now that people should go to IRC to get more detailed information. Is that #samsung-fascinate? Just wondering since you didn't give us a channel name.
[Fascinate General] jimmypopulous:
I'm a developer. I've made code contributions to the mainline kernel in the past. I love Android phones and the ecosystem around them, but I don't plan on joining the club and collaborating on development.

It's this attitude that keeps my (and others) away from serious work on Android. You can be right in a way that isn't offensive. It's called being an adult and operating with tact and respect - even when the other party doesn't adhere to the same principles.

This seems to happen with handset development: a number of core contributors are fawned on by the community at large, and their behavior is above reproach at all times. If you're in it for the recognition or for the satisfaction you get in developing for these devices, you probably wouldn't feel the need to bring so much negativity to the table.

I don't mind recognizing your contributions, but I also have no problem pointing out that your general attitude is unnecessary. "l33t" died well over a decade ago; act accordingly; we don't need to reinforce the stereotype of the spoiled, never-wrong hacker.
[Fascinate General] soba49:
Sigh, I should have posted something like this earlier.

Adrynalyne, would you please change your signature? It doesn't suit you.

For those who aren't familiar with Adrynalyne, my experience is that his post to a question is usually three things: concise, useful, and timely. If you go by history and deeds, there is no credibility in calling him an * anything. That a nerve was hit which spiraled into three pages of sprawl is unfortunate for all parties. My larger point is that personal attacks get us no where.

However, all of that discussion is really a separate issue from this thread. The forum would be better served by starting a new post "How sarcasm turns a discussion into a rivalry", than continuing to talk about who said what.

Sprawl is the weakness of the forum format. When newcomers arrive, whom does it serve to have them search 18 pages of this? And yes, I include the post I am making right now as wasteful.

The strength of a forum is having individual threads that encompass great diversity of related information. These can be linked to answer a question more completely than individual posts. Wouldn't it be nice to have somewhere to send people griping about new releases. To give them a glimpse of the mountain beyond the valley?

endsoapbox*/->

Swyped from my i500.04 (bh &1129) using XDA App
[Fascinate General] upsidedownaaron:
So how "hard" is it to build an ril? I am assuming that this is a samsung engineer only kind of thing?

And will this mean that when 2.2 rolls out that we will along with that get a mo betta ril? Something not cobbed together from 1.6.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Pretty tough without Samsung providing source. Anyone remember the not so successful project of porting HTC sense to the moto Droid? You guessed it, huge ril problems.
[Fascinate General] wasupwithuman:
Here is a simple answer. Will aosp boot? Yes. Will your phone work like it is supposed to (ie. Texts incoming/outgoing calls)? No. Why? Ril. Can you rewrite it? Yeah. Is it worth the time to rewrite it? No. Not at this time.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
The sad thing was, people said ril, over and over. The OP didnt want to accept it.

Now this thread just sees action just to bash me. Its flattering, I guess.
[Fascinate General] wasupwithuman:
I shall bash anyone who bashes You.
[Fascinate General] sic4672:
bashing you is the highlight of my day ;)
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Well as long as I brighten someone's day, I guess its ok. ;)

Watch out for wasap though...I saw him buying plane tickets after watching Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back.
[Fascinate General] sic4672:
damn, time to move...
[Fascinate General] imnuts:
This is probably the biggest thing right now. Why put a ton of time into something that may not be needed in another week or two, or whenever they finally release 2.2? It's still getting worked on, but probably not as much attention as it would be getting if there wasn't an update right around the corner.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
No. Now we are back to civilized discussion. And that is cool. There was never intend to bash anybody...

I'm pretty old for all that crap like FB, Twitter etc. Look at my number of posts here! I'm observer pretty much. Like 20 years ago I was able to get some beer, **** girlfriend, code until 4 A.M and then go to work in the morning and pretty much live at this crazy pace. Not any more! And now I have other responsibilities in my life, that took over midnight hacking. And project deadlines at work. You know... I consider forums as places that suit my current life pace, that's it. And it's pretty upsetting to be in discussions like this, and getting fast responses from young and bright. Truth is that such moment will come in everybody life, it's unavoidable. Then you will feel the bitterness of the situation.

That's to not say that I'm upset that you are young and bright... Not at all.

But a lack of constructivism, that drive me nuts... It might be nothing at your age... But hope you understand sooner or later.

Saying RIL over and over again didn't answered the question at all. Especially from people who acknowledged that they are not devs. You bursted when I asked for response from devs. And that was your first reply to thread...

I understand that is difficult, however question is why? I've checked google docs, and there is no mention of version specifics. For me it seems like (on very surface of course, because like I have stated that my knowledge in this area is zero) there was no changes from 1.6 all way to 2.3. May be some conditionals in the code, but nothing in docs.

Also it seems like there is not one but two layers of indirection of RIL - demon and vendor specific lib.

Another thing to mention is that feels like all thing google are related to GSM and SF is on CDMA. And that might be real problem, because one have to emulate all stuff missing.

But, technically RIL should be a black box. My point is that we have one already. It doesn't really matter if it is buggy, hack or whatever. We have it in our phones, and I hope must be available a separate file. And if size, color and shape of that box never changed, why we need to wait for new one, instead of plugging old?

If you can provide even brief explanation why decision was made to wait for Samsung new code, that will be cool! That will place everything in proper places.

I know people do stuff because of reasons. Just explain us these reasons.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
The RIL isn't coded by google, its coded by Samsung. So naturally, Google isn't going to have information on it.

Secondly, you are right. CDMA is the big issue, and problem causer. Android aosp is automatically setup for GSM already, not CDMA, unless the manufacturer has released their source for it, and Samsung has not. Not for the RIL. Gone are the days of easy porting, at least with Samsung. Both Motorola and HTC have contributed their source to aosp.

Samsung doesn't play that game.
[Fascinate General] soba49:
Two questions then:

1. Is this the insufficient source we have to work with from Samsung?

http://opensource.samsung.com/

(search 'SCH-I500')

2. Is there any reason to think that Samsung will be more forthcoming with proprietary code the next time around?

Here is my take. When 2.2 is spoonfed to us by Samsung, then XDA devs will be able to update our mods and kernels as they have done for 2.1. There will be no actions towards Flash 10.1, 2.2 apps, or the 3D interfaces in gingerbread without corresponding action from the manufacturer. Any talk of AOSP, Cyanogen, or freeing our phones from external timetables is purely a pipe dream, barring a sea change event.

I think the OP may have assumed there was some other scenario, along the lines of a missing driver or a library that needed to be encapsulated behind a fresh interface with limited algorithmic and/or proprietary coding... only onerous tedium that perhaps could be divvied out amongst our population here. Oops.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Beside very liking the phone hardware, the only reason I choose SF over Droid X was that hope that soft will live long happy life, even when Samsung will go ahead with new phones.

Unfortunately it feels like it will be same sad story as with my Dell Axim x50v... Great hardware at the time...

Seems like Samsung will use such strategy as a leverage to sell new models. What a setback!
[Fascinate General] wasupwithuman:
Hopefully Samsung will post the working source for 2.2 when they release the ota. It will be possible to have aosp and cm6, with the more things Samsung releases. You have to remember that the dev team is pretty much 2 people, not like all the other phones that have 10+ devs. I am sure eventually, we will have everything ported to it, including miui. Its just a matter of time, and hard work. With that said this thread should be locked. If you know how to program ril, good. Join the irc, and help out. If you don't, Then wait. The end.
[Fascinate General] soba49:
How many different ways can one post "I don't really understand what exactly is going on or how RILs work, but I totally think it is coming." ?

Cripes. Is repeating that statement any more relevant than the post it is complaining about? I say no, it's just a combination of defensive instinct and last-word-syndrome.

So, it can be done, but it its more than should be asked for. Fine, fair enough.

But lock the thread! On what grounds? For unsuccessfully trying to converse about development on XDA. That is out of line in my not so humble opinion.

Swyped w/ XDA App. System: http://tinyurl.com/26tmcr9

EDIT: I lost my cool on this recent post. I grossly oversimplified the prevailing view in quotes. However, it has been stated by several and quite completely that there is an identified limitation and they have nothing more to say on the topic. That is all I meant. I initially expected the conversation would naturally progress to: a) what actions might be taken to patch together what's available, assuming time and resources were unlimited, even if it were only an academic discussion b) a few details of why the task is just insurmountable or c) links to primers about how other people are actually moving forward. There is no reason to assume that there is no one interested in becoming involved in a project like this, nor is there any reason to temper any existing frustration. If you have grown tired of reading this thread, by all means please stop pressing reply.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Its hard to take the thread serious when the OP won't even come to IRC to help out. Sorry, but the forum is not a good enough communication tool to work on this stuff.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Oh, never mind... I simply cannot do this by various reasons.. But, some information might stick here and maybe I or somebody else might use it later. However its not the case with irc
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
THis folks, is why we get nowhere. Someone comes in and gives us a big ol' wtf it aint that hard, and when asked to help out, they turn out to be posers.

Fail.
[Fascinate General] sic4672:
burn the witch!
[Fascinate General] soba49:
That isn't why we get no where.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
Thats where you would be wrong.

This post became a complete failure once the OP showed that he either wasn't able or wasn't willing to help.

If I had a penny for every Tom, **** and Jane that came across this forum and IRC proclaiming knowledge and how to help, and actually knowing less than non devs, I'd be rich.

Haters will hate, Posers will pose.

It might be blunt, it might be rude, but its true.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
So far I haven't even heard detailed tech explanation of the problem, what was attempted to resolve problem, etc. All responses were at the same basic level - Samsung sux. It is their fault. I got it.

Let play the game here. Let assume we are real life team and have morning stand up meeting.

Manager:

OK, team, we have deployment date scheduled for 1.1.11. I know that one of our vendors just released new version of their product called Gingerbread. Our customers are craving for it!

Team did great job fixing bugs in their previous product. Unfortunately another vendor - Samsung, slipped from the schedule, because of departure of lead developer, and they are not going to be on time shipping their libraries. They do not have source code anymore.

However there is opinion, based at least on the common sense, that some stuff might be reused from existing code base and binaries. (By the way one post in this forum states that was done, but the phone literally burned out. I will find poster name.) Our senior management wants us to keep work hard and release product on time. I ask every member of team explain what is his status and raise his concerns and come up with suggestions up to how we can reach our goal.

The future of our department is at stake and everybody should understand what the consequences are.

Now I would like to hear from everybody... Let start from you adrynalyne!

That how it goes every morning in my team. And dead line date is like next week. Always, pretty much :-) And we are IT department in relatively small company, so we are opposite to Samsung and fix our bugs. Otherwise company gotta pay big money. In other words - I'm busy.

You see, I'm not going to go to irc because of multiple reasons. First of all it is firewalled in the office. Secondly it is chat, means real time conversation. That means I pretty much obliged to sit and maintain conversation. I simply cannot do this, because of lack of time. Even if I want...

Another reason is that I stated directly - my knowledge of Linux and android is almost zero. I took quick look at API and samples, with intend to do something, but really haven't time to do even something simple. I want to involve one of my kids into programming, but still cannot find time for this.

Now, look at this realistically. Every dev begs do not spend his time here, in the forum, by asking stupid questions. Because of this you guys left for irc. Now you ask me to come there. What do you think I will do? I'll ask same question! I cannot magically up level of my knowledge to the current level of active devs. So, I will simply waste your time on irc. Right?

And you will stop talking to the common crowd completely and do underground, because these lamers poison your life? :-) That's what is going to happen?

Just be realistic. Forum is good form of prolonged conversation. It doesn't oblige you to anything. If you do not want to answer - do not answer. But if you answer, put some information in your answer.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
I'm not going to tell you where you have to go and what you have to do. You know it.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
That's called specialization, man! You, for example, cannot do heart surgery, no matter what. However it's not a shame to ask doctor about some details. It might also help figure out addition information he forgot to ask or something. Like you have hemophilia for example and my die on the table because of this. Doctor sure knows about this, but his brain was busy thinking about breakup with girlfriend, or he was simply under thinking about previous surgery, or whatever. But every case is special... It need thinking in right direction.

For me argument or constructive discussion is sure way to get in right direction. And it might also help other people as well. So, why not?
[Fascinate General] GoogleAndroid:
Is that why devs hardly post anything here now? If you want anything recent you have to go to the irc. I miss the good old days where I could visit the forums and find everything, up to date. Now, we still have people installing the one click lag fix, old Voodoo, etc.
[Fascinate General] adrynalyne:
No, it goes far deeper than that.

@ the OP:

Must be hard to do your job without knowing C/C++/ or Java. If you know one well, specialization doesn't matter. If all you saw in this thread was that Samsung sux, then you have either a reading problem, or are just a liar and don't understand what has been said in here.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Well may be... But your vision is also single sided.

I had java certification in the past, but didn't touch it more than 6 years. Do C# these days and it's pretty much the same. C/C++ however is completely different story. I did some coding in university long time ago. Nothing like industry scale.

Common!!! Language is just a tool. People do pretty cool stuff with PHP and JavaScript. But specialization does matter. Good hacker is not necessarily good application developer and vice versa. Good programmer does not translate into good sysadmin. You may continue that list.

Getting up to speed with Linux will sure take serious time. Writing RIL? I bet one needs more than compiler and libs. I guess one needs test platform to develop and debug for single chip.

I don't know what you do for living. May be you got all your linux and android experience just studying it alone on your spare time. Even if not - respect any way. But I feel like at least some here developers have jobs related to programming chip/phones or something like that. That would be quite naive to expect that everybody around will have same level of expertise. How I can know that the person I talk is not Samsung dev?

Promised link.

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=822298&page=3

Post #22. Devs nick is punk.kaos.

Did he really had working froyo on SF or it is just a fluff?
[Fascinate General] kurt2720:
http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=8901406&postcount=7 This post could easily be for this thread, just substitute RIL for froyo. It's really kinda funny. I've never talked to Adrynalyne directly but I read the logs of irc everyday to keep up on whats current and I can tell you nobody helps the noobs as much as he does. He just has no tolerance for arrogance or stupidity.
[Fascinate General] CNemo7539:
Cool! Why do not behave same way here? And what is stupidity and arrogance? All this stuff is a little bit subjective.