yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[G Tablet General] Nospin:
Like I said up top it's pretty obvious they haven't done this before, and I'm sure the most experienced developers aren't working at viewsonic. So it's very well possible they aren't up to snuff on everything they need to do, but something tells me repeated calls to cr reps isn't going to convince them something needs to be done. Love to talk to an actual dev on the project.

When they released this tablet I don't think they were expecting this kind of leg work. Maybe a few calls from people who couldn't find the power button. Welcome to the incredibly knowledgeable and determined android community viewsonic.
[G Tablet General] potissimus:
Thanks Mrbobrowitz!

I like the new and improved letter. We may want to think about separating the issues and sending one letter per issue (one for the source, one for the tapntap stuff). That way maybe it will be clear that the two issues don't overlap. What do you guys think?

Also, we probably don't need anything as extensive as an SDK like B&N's. That seems to be more about implementing features into their proprietary book software. Maybe HTC would be a closer example to our case? The below website has HTC's source releases.

developer.

htc.

com

(I don't have 8 posts yet, but this isn't spam, so I don't think I'm going against the purpose of the rule...)

Thanks for the initiative Mrbobrowitz :)
[G Tablet General] gabemeyers:
just a question, I've already placed my call and recieved much the same response, but what does anyone actually want the tapntap overlay for? not to be rude to viewsonic and the devs of tapntap, but thats the bulk of what I want to be able to remove from my tab, and the open source nature of android says I have that right.

correct me if I'm wrong, but thats what android is all about

I currenlty have 3 tabs, and I have until the 14th to decide if im going to keep them

NOTION INK ADAM tab... viewsonic with out a source thats where my $1130 goes

and I wont be the only 1

Ohh and BTW, THANK YOU yet again XDA DEVS for making something BAD, GREAT!!!
[G Tablet General] scsione889:
I called again and spoke with someone (didn't catch his name)...

I gave him - over the phone - GPL's website to help him understand. I explained that the kernel source code is what is licensed under GPL and that is what we want.

He said he will send the link and that request to the developers.

He also said he was never really clear on what we were after, even after getting more than 10 calls/day on this topic, but now feels as though he understands what we are after and why.
[G Tablet General] smileyscout:
Well I just successfully sent the letter to these email addresses at ViewSonic:

support@viewsonic.com

service@in.viewsonic.com

service@sg.viewsonic.com

csvip@viewsonic.com

adam.hanin@viewsonic.com

brian.igoe@viewsonic.com

jeff.volpe@viewsonic.com

alan.chang@viewsonic.com

james.chu@viewsonic.com <--- CEO

Might as well send one to Tap 'n Tap too:

info@tapntap.com

jsegovia@mba2002.hbs.edu <--- CEO
[G Tablet General] rcgabriel:
I think the confusing issue here is that the reference board on which our tablet is relatively closely based is made by NVidia. The actual hardware for the G Tablet is manufactured by Malata in China. However, it is sold in the US by Viewsonic, or at least using the Viewsonic brand name under license. It seems that the worldwide distributor of the device is a company called US Merchants that is principally a packaging design and display company as far as I can tell (assuming that the US Merchants that distributes the G Tablet is the company in the LA area). And the Android-based software running on it was developed by a Cambridge, MA based company called Tap N Tap.

It's basically a big mess of passing the buck. Malata is a Chinese company, and doesn't distribute in the US, so unless they want to release source code, they really have no obligation under our legal system. Tap N Tap works under contract with Viewsonic - since they don't distribute the product, they have no direct obligations under the GPL.

Since the product is sold under the Viewsonic brand name, ultimately Viewsonic bears responsibility for ensuring the product is legally compliant. But the guys at Tap and Tap sound smart enough to understand these obligations. We should be asking the Tap N Tap guys for help convincing Viewsonic politely that they have a legal obligation to release kernel source code for their devices.

Above all, we need to keep the requests polite, explicit and clear. The source code for the kernel and kernel modules in a buildable form are what Viewsonic or its designees are obligated to provide.

Don't fret too much XDA-verse - if the polite requests seem to be going nowhere, then rather than sending nasty emails or getting ourselves worked up into a froth, we will report Viewsonic to GPL-Violations.org, get a story posted on Slashdot and let them stew in their own bad publicity. This is usually pretty effective as a last resort enforcement mechanism. I don't think we're quite there yet, until we're absolutely convinced, in writing, that there is an intentional decision at a corporate level *not* to release kernel source code and comply with their legal obligations.
[G Tablet General] cutterjohn:
Just to be pedantic, there are a few other bits and pieces of android that are actually licensed under GPL as well, but the kernel is the part that we'd really want at least... be nice to have the Android code too, but as mentioned it's up to VS...

TnT: might be their only hope of actually having something worthwhile some day, as it's not even beta quality right now AFAIC...
[G Tablet General] insight3fl:
I agree.. from my post 84863:

"still believe we should be contacting "US Merchants", the packager / distributor who controls all of the marketing and distribution of this device. They even have a Shenzen China location where they "assemble" products. I would be willing to bet they "partnered" with Viewsonic (for the brand recognition only) and put this tablet together along with the packaging (check the box, they even had their own website which was stickered over with Viewsonic Gtablet address). It is more than likely they made a deal with TapnTap for the operating system and pay them a royalty on each unit which explains why they will not remove it or release the system. They made a deal and likely have a contract with TapNTap. That is my guess and my two cents.

Search engine them and you will learn more."
[G Tablet General] rcgabriel:
Specifically, I'm guessing that Denis Karpeles took the project or the project idea with him from Viewsonic, where he was VP of Consumer Electronic Sales until September 2009, and decided to distribute it through his new company US Merchants, where he is Executive Director of Sales and Marketing.

See his LinkedIn profile:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/denis-karpeles/16/17b/ba2

He is clearly the link between these two companies, though he is neither an engineer nor a legal compliance person. I do think a polite, well explained email to him might help. I don't have a public email address, but I'm sure he can be reached through LinkedIn.

However, I still am fairly certain that a court would agree that the product is marketed under the Viewsonic brand name, and is presented as a Viewsonic product, and Viewsonic bears that legal compliance obligation through their licensing agreement for their brand name and presenting a product as if they are making it.

Also, Viewsonic has the most to lose here. From what I can see, US Merchants most likely has nobody in a senior role who understands things like software license compliance - they aren't a software or hardware company, and their distribution of this product appears to be incidental.
[G Tablet General] DebauchedSloth:
You guys might also want to point out that B&N has released the source to their tablet. Not the proprietary GUI, obviously, but their Linux, Android and Kernel.
[G Tablet General] cutterjohn:
So has Samsung for the Tab, Dell for the Streak(all of it apparently), Archos for the 5IT(that I know of), etc.

Most of the ones that have failed to release so far are just the Chinese(or reliant) ones... no big surprise there though...
[G Tablet General] insight3fl:
Good find on Mr. Karpeles. I am going to shoot him an email on Linkedin.
[G Tablet General] RichTJ99:
I have to say, I was thinking about this today while I was in the mall looking at the Galaxy Tab. At 600 bucks its very expensive considering the hardware of the Gtab vs the older hardware of the galaxy.

On the other hand, I do like how 'fast' the galaxy with old hardware feels vs the Gtab in stock form. With CM6 (what I am using at the moment) the Gtab feels a little faster but not as fast as I would expect a dual core tegra 2 tab to feel.

I keep thinking about how reluctant Viewsonic is on releasing the source & how in 1 month CES is going to have vendors up the 'wazoo' with tegra 2 tabs ready to be released. I am wondering if I should return this tab, put my 400 bucks in a box, keep adding 20 bucks a week & in a few months when HTC puts out a tegra 2 tab (they are known for releasing source) go get one.

Its a shame because this next generation hardware is in my hands today but the company wont give up the source.

I was pretty psyched that members of team douche (CM) bought these tabs but the lack of any real progress makes me wonder if these folks are going to bother working on a sourceless tab.
[G Tablet General] anlog:
There is a price to pay for being an early adopter. In my case, I got my TWO gtabs for $350 each. For me that means they are disposable. I'll eventually regift them to a family member. The Galaxy Tab is an overpriced and slow piece of junk. My boss said I could order one through our corporate ATT plan and the company would foot the bill. I declined the offer.

With TnT Lite v2.2 my tab is fast as hell and does everything I want. What other device out there right now scores almost 2500 in Quadrant? Yes you can wait for more Tegra 2 tabs to come out, but I guarantee you they won't be cheap. The other vendors may also support them just as poorly and in 12 months they'll still be yesterday's news.

I'm committed to my gtabs. You rarely see a device with so much community support.
[G Tablet General] cybik:
On the Kernel: We'll probably end up getting another Tegra2 provider's sources and hack a bit with them to get something working on the G-Tablet.

I'm sorry to say this, but Viewsonic will end up being a hardware supplier only, that'll get returns from non-knowledgeable customers because they didn't listen and wanted to protect an ill-made investment, but will gain a measure of respect from geeks because they were the first to get a Tegra2 product out on this side of the big ponds. But they'll also get a bit of a bad image for not releasing the Kernel sources they used under the GPL terms.
[G Tablet General] pimpmaneaton:
What about the source for the Malata Zpad. I believe that it is the same tablet with different branding. I've been looking and haven't found it yet but just wondering if you guys think that it would work as well.
[G Tablet General] rcgabriel:
Almost the same, yeah. I think the issue is that Malata is a Chinese company that doesn't have any business presence in the US or EU, and thus is not subject to any legal system that would enforce stuff like the GPL or any software licensing or Western-style copyright law. Maybe Malata will release kernel source, maybe not, but to the best of my knowledge they haven't yet.

Viewsonic, on the other hand, is a California-based company, advertising and distributing (or at least licensing their brand for distribution) the G Tablet. They have a legal obligation under US law to release kernel source code. I don't think relying on Malata's good will makes sense when it's pretty easy to cajole, convince or (if necessary, and hopefully it's not) force Viewsonic's hand on this one.
[G Tablet General] raggededge:
Just my .02 cents, I understand what the OP is trying to accomplish and kudos to him for stepping up, but IMHO, that letter reads as threatening and demanding. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we won any hearts over at Viewsonic's legal dept.

I'm going to call and basically say, we love the product, we appreciate forwarding customers to the forum, but we're stuck and can't develop the tablet any further without your help, live up to it's full potential, yadda yadda. Wouldn't it be great if Viewsonic had an official rep sign up, similar to how Samsung has reps over at Cnet's tv forum. Maybe someone from their dev team is already a member here.
[G Tablet General] rcgabriel:
Agreed with everything you said regarding the importance of keeping the tone positive and not issuing threats. We have no standing to issue threats, as we are not the copyright holders, and it's always better to start with a nice approach and assume that there is a simple misunderstanding of obligations rather than malice intended.

However, I don't believe Viewsonic has a software development team involved with this product at all, since the development was all done by NVidia for the baseline Tegra2 stuff, Malata as the hardware OEM for most of the hardware drivers, and Tap N Tap Inc. for the UI and packaging the whole thing up. This is part of the problem - there's no software guys at the company to go whine to the lawyers and management on our behalf. :)
[G Tablet General] roebeet:
Going on the comments from my dealings with Viewsonic, I believe the software is supplied by Tap 'n Tap, Inc. The entire ROM, not just their TnT layer.

I suspect that there's some contractual agreement, and who knows how much power VS has in controlling what they do (ie. the fact that they won't supply an offline ROM, for example). So, I think it's really Tap 'n Tap, Inc. that probably would have to supply the kernel source, not Viewsonic.
[G Tablet General] rclui10:
From their site.....

Tap 'n Tap is a technology + design firm located in Boston. For more information, please contact us at info@tapntap.com .
[G Tablet General] Lnin0:
Legally since the tablet is sold under the VS brand they are the ones responsible for meeting legal obligations in the countries they sell it in. Hopefully this delay is not VS being stubborn. I want to think the delay is because VS doesn't themselves have the code and it is just taking some extra time to pass this along.
[G Tablet General] raggededge:
Well, let's hope it's just that all the parties involved are working through the bureaucratic red tape involved in releasing what we need and that it's just going to take awhile.
[G Tablet General] wiredmonkey:
It really should be called TapNCrap, but I digress.
[G Tablet General] pimpmaneaton:
Well I went a head and sent an email to Malata asking if I could get the Linux kernel source code for the zpad. I'll let you guys know if I get any goodies in return from them.

EDIT: Got an email back from an Eagle Xu at Malata and he said they won't release the kernel source and said to contact NVIDIA directly. This is exactly what I got in return.

"We couldn’t provide it to you, maybe you could contact Nvidia people or Google people."

That's all that was in the email so back to square one.

Sent from G2 rocking Virtuous 0.7.4 and eVils 12-10-1 kernel.
[G Tablet General] rcgabriel:
By the way, I found this blog with some discussion on this topic (I see rothnic posted comments there, so he knows about this already):

http://mjg59.livejournal.com/130815.html?thread=1825535

and the follow-up from a few days ago:

http://mjg59.livejournal.com/131223.html

It sounds like the folks at Tap N Tap do understand there is an obligation, and are working on complying with that obligation. It sounds from the conversation thread in the first post that it's been confirmed that the binary ROM updates are actually distributed by Tap N Tap from a server they control, thus they are now a GPL-obligated party directly in addition to Viewsonic, who distributed the original device.

The issue seems to be a conflict between GPL obligations and contracts with third parties. Fairly common thing in these GPL scenarios. Doesn't excuse it, but it does provide some context.

From Matt Garrett's second post, it sounds like the most helpful thing we can do right now is continuing to put gentle pressure on Viewsonic to give Tap N Tap permission and/or support in releasing the kernel sources, as required by the GPL to come in compliance with copyright law.
[G Tablet General] rothnic:
Yeah, i've been working this issue quietly since the tablet came out. We also had a reddit post on the subject, which pointed me towards Matt. I then asked him to look into it and it seems like he might be able to help. I've also been working on the zpad side of things.

I really think we need to stage a call in day specific for this issue into Viewsonic.
[G Tablet General] mcbooth:
Viewsonic do seem to be listening, look at this from twitter this morning (my time):

"There's a VERY STRONG chance we'll give you the opportunity to enable/disable Tap 'n Tap. Not official yet, tho. :-) ^AH"

http://twitter.com/#!/ViewSonic/status/14411872346308608

Keep up the good work everyone!
[G Tablet General] Nospin:
Very cool.
[G Tablet General] insight3fl:
I sent a soft email request to tapntap also
[G Tablet General] gujjulive:
I work in release and our legal department always tells me that. Part of the GPL we have to make source available at the release time.

So Viewsonic and tapntap should have released the source as part of the release. I belive it's GPL violation.
[G Tablet General] pershoot:
i am still awaiting a resonse from tapntap regarding kernel source for this tablet.

indeed, this is GPL violation, if kernel source does not accompany a binary release of said kernel.

i am hoping they comply, or development on this platform will stand still/become quite a task, and we will pull our hair out trying to reverse engineer the relevant bits (where applicable).
[G Tablet General] markgolly:
Yes, I sent a request, too, but to the "info@tapntap.com" address on their website. Still listening to their silence....
[G Tablet General] elitepsycho:
@ViewSonic I think the g grab is great but how can I get the source code for the kernal this is very important please respond @stsh0502 We are looking into this right now. Stay tuned. ^AH ...well at least their looking into it seems last few tweets have been about this subject
[G Tablet General] phfaty:
Boycott all viewsonic products (except Gtab) until they release the source code.
[G Tablet General] rcgabriel:
Yah, I saw two tweets on their Twitter feed regarding this, elitepsycho.

Looks like they are aware of GPL issue now, and aware that giving the kernel source to the community will be good thing from a PR perspective (that's the only reason they'd be addressing it on their Twitter feed). That's awesome. I'd say the gentle pressure and calm explanation approach seems to be yielding some results and has gotten through to some of the right people at Viewsonic. Keep up the good work, guys!
[G Tablet General] iammuze:
reply

after i sent the email in this thread to all the relevant email addresses in this thread, michael holstein. (VP of viewsonic) replied asking me to call him to discuss. I haven't yet, id like to know if this is blanket treatment. anyone else get this response?
[G Tablet General] pershoot:
i haven't received a response such as this.

sure, give a call over. please state that it would be in everyone's best interest if we get the kernel source in its entirety as soon as possible, as that would catapult development on this platform and the gtablet.

thx.
[G Tablet General] anlog:
Maybe we should have the experts (rothnic or roebeet) give them a call, since they are really familiar with the GPL requirements???
[G Tablet General] HighTech216:
They wont be winning any hearts and minds by angering the development community. They need to get with the program.

I will also be calling and inquiring myself, I suggest that everyone takes the time to do so.
[G Tablet General] Alpha06:
I for one am glad our viewsonic overlords have taken notice.
[G Tablet General] roebeet:
I'm not too keen on GPL issues, but I can use another angle as far as user satisfaction with the TnT interface. :)

We had this same discussion months ago, with Pandigital. They never released the source code. Neither did Velocity Micro, for their Cruz Reader. I don't think this is an avenue that's going to really get us anywhere.

If they ever release the source, I believe its with the hope that XDA might do something with it and not because they're being strong-armed. They have more lawyers that we do, so they automatically win there - we'd need someone backing us up, and I don't see Engadget taking much notice, they are too busy writing about the Galaxy Tab and Notion Ink Adam.
[G Tablet General] scsione889:
Here you all go. Make yourselves familiar.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html

All Android kernel is released under GPLv2 and everything Google released above the kernel is released under Apache Software License (ASL).

http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html
[G Tablet General] bousquet:
The silver lining is that VS is indicating on Twitter they have something up their sleeve. Let's just hope it's more than simple a software update to optionally disable Tap.
[G Tablet General] anlog:
Two big fat turds, one real and the other imaginary.
[G Tablet General] scsione889:
True. However slashdot.org eats this stuff up. Their articles end up on digg and reddit all the time.
[G Tablet General] eviltuna:
I really think the angle we should use is that, with better community support, they'll get more sales, I know that the only reason I bought my gtablet is cause I saw that there was support for it on XDA. Instead of telling them about GPL and laws etc, tell them that it'll fill their pocket books if they release the kernel source, I'm sure I'm not the only one who bought this tablet cause of the great support of the XDA community.
[G Tablet General] babybacon:
agreed.

that is the reason i bought this device. and the same reason why i bought the nook color. as well as my eris.
[G Tablet General] markgolly:
Hey, iammuze, he is obviously interested in something you said or did, so please call him back and talk with him as simply a member of the g's modding community. And please don't let his title "throw you" - just talk to him as to another human being with all courtesy. I really wouldn't "charge" him with anything vis-a-vis "withholding source" or anything like that - I'd just state to him that the gtab is a wonderful device made better by what the modding community has done; and the more he can support that, the better his bottom line will be with respect to the gtab.

I'd focus on what will make the gtab better - like, maybe, a better LCD, more community support, etc., etc.
[G Tablet General] jtbnet:
Folks at Modaco Promised Vega Source

http://android.modaco.com/content/advent-vega-vega-modaco-com/326421/i-met-with-dsg-today/
[G Tablet General] rcgabriel:
I guess that's cool if they release source for the Advent Vega, though my understanding was that there are a few hardware elements are different from the G Tablet.

They are both essentially rebadged Malata SMB-A1002 tablets, so this would definitely get us closer to a working kernel compile for the G Tablet.

And of course, if they release source for the full ROM that would be very cool as it would help a lot with improving the Vegan ROM build.
[G Tablet General] roebeet:
There are some differences, but we can get around them in the system space. The kernel itself may be an issue, however.

The VEGAn prototype I've been hammering away the last 2 days is 90% VEGA, with whatever layer we need to get it to work on our own devices. They have a different BT and WiFi setup, but most of the files in /system are compatible with our device.
[G Tablet General] iammuze:
success.

ladies and gentlemen, good work.

http://www.viewsonic.com/gtablet/news.htm

http://tapntap.http.internapcdn.net/tapntap/viewsonic/gTablet-TapUI-1.1-Kernel-Patch.zip

we have source.