yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
the rational of "microsd is replaceable" is correct. any microsd laying on a table is considered a user-replaceable piece of hardware. any, and all microsd inside a phone, camera, laptop, etc is considered a user replaceable piece of hardware. it's a very simple piece of user replaceable hardware, and that's why it's given in the microsd format (size, shape, storage type).

placing a warrantee sticker over a portion of the phone/device is ASKING for people to pry it away and see what is underneath. warrantee be damned, if the hardware is purchased by a user, it now belongs to said user, reguardless of what a UELA says.

the right way to spec a cheaper board (beit OEM or M$) and then plop on a microsd for storage would have been to put it in a place the user couldn't access. complete disassembly of the phone would have made more sense. glueing it in without sandwiching it between layers of phone would have been a bad idea also. users would damage the phone trying to remove, as stated already.

the decision to use a striped microsd card in a user accessible location was just a poor choice. soldering a 8,16, or 32Gb chip on would have been much better. call it iphone-esque, but it wouldn't have been in discussion or confusion -now-.

also

what happened to the "proprietary sdcard" statement i've seen in the past ? has it been debunked, or is it still current ?

sidenote: i'm all for cheap, huge buckets of microsd storage myself. :-)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
A chip would be better but more expensive. OEMs just opted for a cheaper option, as usual.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
I didn't say it was rational or logical. "Moron" is all I needed to say. You know...the type that shoots themselves in the face while looking down the barrel of a gun to see if there's a bullet inside. They then make claims against the gun maker saying it was unsafe. The gun should not fire when pointed at your face.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
So it is acceptable to require a company to foot the bill for stupidity? If the owner removes the warranty sticker knowing it voids the warranty, do they have the right to seek warranty repairs when they F it up?
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
There's only one device with a card that's easily installed, the Focus. The rest make it hard to get to. AT&T and Samsung were advertising this feature, basically against Microsoft's wishes. Now they're all having to backpedal.

I believe there's a software issue here that is exacerbating these problems. The OS is just not resilient enough. I hope Microsoft resolves the software issues and allows more OEMs to ship devices like the Focus which gives the user the choice in how much storage someone needs. 8gb (the WP7 minimum) is PLENTY of storage for a vast number of people. But many of us want more. I'm OK (but not overly joyed) with the cards not being able to be reformatted. Just have to pretend that the storage is embedded.
[Windows Phone 7 General] naplesbill:
Regardless of what Microsoft has posted in the past, they had to know about the Focus having the slot long before it was released. So, they obviously planned to allow it at some level. Now, they have only focused on saying that it is not swappable without a hard reset.

Personally, I am glad the slot is there on the Focus. I wouldn't have bought the Focus otherwise. I don't like the Surround or the LG WP7 devices, and I need atleast 16GB of storage. I now have 24GB and I have not had a single problem. I initially had an 8GB Centon Class 6 and replaced that with a 16GB PNY Class 2. I was able to reformat the Centon, using a Nokia Symbian phone, and gave it to a friend to use in his Focus.

I am not sure how or why Samsung was able to offer the accessible SD slot, but I am glad they did.

As far as the media is concerned, the quality of journalism with the online blogs (and even PC-World and other "respected" publications) has been in a decline for the last few years. Ever since blogging started becoming so mainstream, the publications have turned into an assimily of the type FOX, NBC, CNN, etc. fight for ratings or viewers. It is very disappointing.
[Windows Phone 7 General] markgamber:
Apple's "debacle" with the iPhone 4 antenna wasn't anything close to what some made it out to be but Apple still paid a pretty steep price for it. What comes around goes around. If people weren't so gullible or taken to this endless "Us vs Them" mentality, none of this would be an issue.

Personally, I stuck a Sandisk 8GB class 2 card in my Focus and with like 2GB or available storage free it still works as perfectly as it did the day I bought the phone. Something else, too...I didn't waste my time with SD cards in WinMo phones because they were even slower than the rest of the phone. Whatever Microsoft did has improved I/O speed by a magnitude and I welcome it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ohgood:
no. on both counts. the OEM can put a "VOID IF REMOVED" sticker across the screen if they want. you remove it, they don't honor the warrantee. simple as that. not that it would ever happen, i would hope. ;-)

the users effing up a phone while trying to remove a sd/microsd card would be pretty obvious to the manufacturer. i'd be pretty certain they would not honor a warrantee when the damage was observed.

i've heard quite a few people that damaged a phone (drops/haxoring/whatever) say they just claimed it was stolen so they wouldn't have to pay for a new one. insurance is what it is.

i just consider a piece of hardware something i've bought no matter what it is:

a shovel

a car

a phone

if i break it, so what. just go get another. pay cash, laugh at contracts and 'upgrade' cycles, and accept responsibility.

:-)
[Windows Phone 7 General] markgamber:
Fact: Users do stupid things sometimes and none of these hardware manufacturers are new on the scene. If a hardware manufacturer make it easy for users to do stupid things, they're at least partially liable for the problems users cause. Putting a finicky, empty SD slot in an easily accessable part of an easily opened phone that is billed as user expandable is begging for problems. A different approach is Apple's iPhone. People complain about the fact that there's no easy way to open it but screw it, Apple isn't inundated by people who trashed their phones with the wrong battery, attempting to expand memory, alter the antennas and whatever else they do. Perhaps that what Samsung and LG should have done but they didn't and if they had, they would have taken some flack for it but talk is cheap, warranty repairs and replacement phones are not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
No they aren't. They put stickers over all the slots. It's 100% the user's fault...
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ogner:
I think Windows Phones should ship with a minimum 8GB ROM (NAND). MicroSD should be an option but almost every phone would have it.

I've noticed that every Windows Phone has 512MB ROM which is madness. How are we ever going to get iPhone performance when loading apps. Apple have cornered the market in NAND, but 512MB ROM is pathetic.
[Windows Phone 7 General] markgamber:
Sticker on the slot reads exactly:

"STOP! Read Quickstart first before using the memory card".

The Quickstart guide reads exactly:

"Insert memory card (not included) Turn off the phone and insert your memory card as shown below. Press Volume Control Down + Camera key + Power key to format the phone and initialize the memory card. Warning: Do not remove the memory card once it is inserted because it is integrated with the phone's memory and will cause the phone to be inoperable."

Not that it was actually my point anyway. My experience with Apple is that they understand good PR is priceless. When I dropped my first iPhone 4 and shattered the glass, they replaced it for free, even though they didn't have to, because they "wanted to understand better how this happens". When I dropped an HTC phone which broke the mainboard in the phone, they could not have possibly cared any less. When the joystick on an HTC smartphone wore out after three months they explained they'd fix it under warranty but it would cost me over $130 in shipping costs to get it to Dubai and back. Or, in other words, get lost. Over and over this happened with HTC and that's why I bought iPhones for 2 1/2 years and will never buy anything from HTC again. What comes around goes around.
[Windows Phone 7 General] markgamber:
From what I've read that's 512MB of system memory which is double that of the iPad. Personally, I'm not concerned.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ogner:
I'm talking about ROM (storage) not RAM (Memory). I have no problem with the amount of RAM my HTC HD7 has 576MB RAM.
[Windows Phone 7 General] lip:
The author (Gruman or whatever) is an asshat...even Topolsky at Engadget has called the guy out on numerous occasions. Unfortunately unless there an apple logo, it's not good enough. These people are everywhere...my company has them as they are moving to an iphone only plan that makes absolutely no sense as we are all microsoft and sap...

What can you do...the cult of apple is pretty strong.
[Windows Phone 7 General] lip:
Let's be realistic...it's only Samsung that was stupid enough to put the sd card right out front and work with AT&T to offer it...I'm sure MS was mighty pissed at this as they knew what would happen.

MS probably should have mandated to use similar memory to the iphone but manufacturers love using sd cards as it's cheaper for them to implement multiple sku's. The problems with sd cards are far and wide with there being only really 2 manufacturers of sd cards in the world...there was a great write up about a manufacturer who was using sd cards in their device and were using kingston(who they later found did not make their own cards but actually bought them through a third party from sandisk!)...most sd cards in the field are complete garbage...

Regardless, 99% of users barely know how to take the back off their phone to put the battery in...they do it the first time and that's that...remember the audience we are talking about has no relation to the audience on xda...
[Windows Phone 7 General] nrfitchett4:
there is nothing wrong with the OS. The whole point is the way it was designed is to make using the phone faster.

The IOS4 antenna issue is a legit concern. The problem was that the were warned about the antenna before hand, but did all their testing with gel skins on the phones. Why not put the .99 skin in the package then there would be no reason for complaints.

You are missing the point. Once the sd card is used, it becomes part of the overall ROM of the phone. That is why it isn't removable once entered without a hard reset.

I agree, microsoft should have made nand memory mandatory. The problem is that they have to get hardware manufacturers to agree and I'm guessing that htc and lg talked them into making microsd's usable. It's cheaper and also easier to change. If at some point the manufacturers wanted to offer different memory sizes, it's alot easier to just have a stack of phones and then to enter the card right before shipping. Apple can go the nand route because they only offer one hardware type from one manufacturer.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ogner:
Another thing that confused me was why did Microsoft not insist on starting with the 2nd gen Snapdragons. I wonder how long it will be before a game I want requires the Adreno 205. If my HTC HD7 had the specs of the HTC Desire HD I would be more satisfied (with the hardware).
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Because they cost more and its not a huge advantage. Wp7 doesnt need hardware thrown at it to perform well, like android does. The launch hardware was/is beyond fine.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
I agree. The HD2, with the same CPU, was a powerful performer even with the much-harder-to-run WinMo. Using that same hardware with WP7 is like..."hmmm...I think I might have felt a tickle".
[Windows Phone 7 General] truffle1234:
well said.......

i love it....
[Windows Phone 7 General] truffle1234:
if HTC claimed that there mainboard on the phone is shatter proof they will replce it for u as well... and i understand why HTC will charge you for the shipping as well...

i am so sorry that you are the unlucky HTC user, i have tried Samsung, and Sony phone all crap... i am so sorry i dont like iPhone as in Singapore every tom **** and harry i holding an iPhone (hawker, taxi driver, bimbos, hell the prostirutes as well as its dumb proof...) as its almost free with telco plan... so sorry but i dont want to be in the same class or grade as those... i need a phone which is not as simple to use... and its not for dumb ppl...

i have never used a stock ROM since the Doopod 838 Pro... i never looked back...
[Windows Phone 7 General] truffle1234:
do u know with the 1Ghz processor its faster then all the other OS and devices...
[Windows Phone 7 General] nrfitchett4:
ummm, apple only replaced a select few iphone4's that got broken from dropping them, you can search engadget for details.

Not sure why you dropping your phone is the manufacturers fault? If I knock over my TV, I'm pretty sure that mitsubishi is not going to fix it for free nor should they. Where is the personal responsibility here?

Maybe you shouldn't own a smartphone....
[Windows Phone 7 General] AceofSpades25:
Wow... so on the one hand Microsoft plan to make a phone so intuitive that even my Gran could use it

On the other hand they have decided to completely redefine what a smart phone should and should not be able to do, so if you are at all disappointed with your purchase, it's not becasue MSFT made bad design decisions, it's because you're a dumbass who should have kept up to date with the extensive list of limitations Microsoft have decided to apply to their devices.

I don't think it is unreasonable for a reasonably well informed individual to walk into a shop and buy a phone advertised to have a MicroSD slot to immediately make the assumption that they will be able to hot-swap that card and upgrade it in future with little fuss if they ever chose to do so. Most people do not keep up to date months ahead with the long list of WP7 limitations. They simply see something advertised and make reasonable assumptions about what that means.

People like myself have been predicting for months that with the way this platform has been designed, it will lead to large scale disappointment. Now that this has happened, all of you WP7 fanboys are getting your knickers in a twist.

As if you didn't see this coming?! :rolleyes:
[Windows Phone 7 General] smuook:
This is where AT&T's culpability lies and why it irks me that they seem to be evading their fair share of the blame. I trained salesperson should be able to point out the difference to the consumer and clear up these issues.
[Windows Phone 7 General] AceofSpades25:
Fair point... but I don't think you can lay the responsibility purely at the carriers door. Many people don't get to talk to sales people before they purchase phones.

Microsoft should have kept MicroSD cards behaving exactly the way users expect them to
[Windows Phone 7 General] bern_tm:
For what its worth... I have been using an 8GB Scandisk Class 2 MicroSD card in my FOCUS since launch without issue. The phone recognizes 90+% of the storage space (im assuming it lost some of it for OS and reserved space)
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
It's not purely on the Carrier.

1. The manufacturers should have put the MicroSD slots inside the phones, where they are not user accessible.

1a. Some phone are like that, but people are still DISASSEMBLING the phones to try to get at the MicroSD card slots.

2. AT&T should have never said the card was user upgradeable, when it isn't. It's not user upgradeable because WP7 needs specific card types and it's way too hit or miss to use an over the counter MicroSD card. High capacity, high class, cards simply cost too much and the return policies on them are NOT forgiving.

The fact that Samsung and AT&T marketed he Focus as having user upgradeable storage started a huge storm, because people then assumed "if they can do it, then I guess I can do it as well."

Also, the tech press didn't help with their "we tried it with a different card for 3 minutes and it works, so I guess it works" reporting.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Some is lost due to formatting as well.

Some cards work, some don't. You can never tell which cards will or won't work because the only thing listed on the cards are their Class (which isn't a factor) and capacity (ditto). You got luckky, at least for now. You never know if the card degrades gracefull in the phone. As it ages, it may break down and no longer function as expected.
[Windows Phone 7 General] naplesbill:
The truth is that the MicroSD on the Focus IS user upgradeable. It is an open and exposed slot that works when you use the correct MicroSD card. Nothing in the world is idiot proof. I agree that Samsung should have provided a compatiblity list with the phone. They did put a sticker on the slot that clearly states to read the quickstart guide before using the slot. This is where they should have provided information on what SD cards are approved or compatible. IMO, this is the only place where Samsung dropped the ball. This has nothing to do with AT&T at all.

I have used two different MicroSD cards in my Focus and they both have and do perform flawlessly. They were both over the counter cards from CompUSA.
[Windows Phone 7 General] naplesbill:
There is a list in another thread under the Focus subforum here on XDA. It appears that only a couple of class 6 cards work. The reason there are so many issues with class 6 cards is because the manufacturer sort of cheats to get class 6 performance. What happens is the manufacturer optimizes the cards for throughput and sacrifices random access speeds in the process.

If you look at the list of compatible cards, they are mostly 8GB or 16GB class 2 cards. There are some class 4 cards and at least one class 6 that work too.
[Windows Phone 7 General] markgamber:
ONCE AGAIN

I'll try one last time to make my point that the playing field has changed. Manufacturers won't be able to get away with being huge, faceless, monolithic, uncaring corporations who's sole aim is to push as much stuff out the door as possible and to hell with the people who buy it. Why? Because those people will take being burned once and from that point on they'll buy from a manufacturer that DOES give a damn, the most obvious being Apple. You can be as condescending and in the pocket of the manufacturer as you'd like, iPhones didn't jump off the shelves because users are "stupid" or "moronic". They did so because in addition to being excellent, easy to use phones there's a face to Apple and even if your drop you iPhone in the toilet while falling down drunk, you take it to the Apple store and ask if they can replace it because there's always the chance that it'll happen. At worst they'll sell you a new one at half price, at best they'll take pity and give you one. I couldn't care less if you like Apple products or not, that's the way they work and it's a magnitude better than any other manufacturer I've dealt with to date.

That's it. That's the whole point. I didn't say there was no personal responsibility, I didn't say that the manufacturer should be held legally liable when a user trashes his phone in violation of the warrranty. Nope, none of it. Only that the industry has changed and people have an alternative to being treated like losers, cheats and idiots. If manufacturers like Samsung and LG haven't picked up on that, there's going to be a lot of people like me who buy something from them once. Tell you something else, too...implying I'm stupid because you don't agree with what I'm saying says a lot of things but not about me and it doesn't make the facts any less true.

Oh...and I think I'm perfectly capable of owning a smartphone and debating something without relying on personal insults like a 5 year old would do, both at the same time. Whatever the rest of that post was about, I couldn't care less because you forfeited with the insult. Bye.
[Windows Phone 7 General] AceofSpades25:
I'm glad nobody made you ruler of the third reich. If people want to disassemble their phones, let them... what's it to you anyway?
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
I think you're completley missing the point and not reading my whole post.

Also, read the statements from Microsoft, which mirror what I wrote.

It may seem to perform flawlessly now, but that might not be the case in, say, 4 months or so.

Compatibility list is impossible. Those cards are not purchaseable OTC. You're paying Russian Roulette if you're trying to upgrade the cared. The fact that it's there doesn't mean you should mess with it. It's not idiot proof, but the fact that it isn't doesn't make people who play with it anything but.... Well... You see where I'm going with that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Always trying to insult others, and completely ignoring the subject.

Back to ignore you...
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
Very good. Totally agree.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Edit: NM read the post again. I get it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
The point being made here is those same ppl who tear apart those warrantied phones want to run to mommy and daddy (the warranty) when they F it up or need service. They want to be able to deliberately F up anything and have others be responsible for it. They are the kind that slur and make trouble for honest ppl and innocent companies when those honest ppl and innocent companies don't cater to their every wish and whim.

Nobody is saying they can't tear apart their phone. But they have zero right for warranty when they do.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
AceOfSpades is trolling. Don't feed him.

He knows exactly what I meant, but feels the need to attempt baiting an argument because my response wasn't "+1."

I'm not going there, anymore.

But I am reporting that post.
[Windows Phone 7 General] AceofSpades25:
I didn't see you mention the word warranty once in your original post. I think it was fair to make the assumption from the comment

that you don't approve of people customising their phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
In this case the clues are in the posts surrounding this post, and the latter post can be used as verification of the meaning of the aforementioned statement. Your reply was out of line, and this is the last reply you'll ever get from me.

You knew exactly what I meant. It was pretty obvious.

And taking a phone apart to get at internal storage is hardly customizing. Would taking the nand out of a phone and trying to solder on a bigger nand chip be considered c"ustomizing" to you as well? Don't answer that... I won't see it anyways. Semantics are strong within you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] AceofSpades25:
Well that was well worth the laugh! :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] naplesbill:
Believe me, I have read everything written by Microsoft. I have also read everything from any other legitimate source on MicroSD and WP7. This is not some magical process by which Microsoft is making a new standard. What it is is simply a case of seperating quality products (microsd cards) from cheaply made low tier products (also microsd cards). The cards work, and I am very confident they will continue to work long enough to be useful. The good news is that they are cheap and easy to replace anyway.

I would hardly call inserting a card into the requisite slot, messing with it. It's intended to be used (whether Microsoft originally wanted it to be or not), and I will use it. All of these same issues can come up when using cheap memory on a PC. It will seem fine, until your system starts freezing or data gets corrupted.

The bottom line here is knowing what your buying, relying on forums like this for more info, and understanding the risks involved with any upgrades to tech devices.
[Windows Phone 7 General] mmelo76:
AceofSpades25 now that you are aware, only a hint.

Always look for a post to "tone down" because this can lead to a flame, for no reason!