yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Calling Microsoft won't work. Yes, if your phone is messed up and something happens they will support you. However, I'm sure they will start logging and/or requiring IMEIs and it will be trivial to get the system to block HD2 IMEIs - not to mention the OS in that ROM is completely different from what other OSes are running (a totally different build with modifications). It will be very easy for them to block it, which is why lots of people questioned the use of it. We've known it would be an unacceptable experience since forever, because Microsoft said they would block modified ROMs and even ban phones that tried to access the servers using hacks/modifications.

If something is broken Microsoft can just update it, the same way they do for Windows Media DRM. It's not like they haven't thought of any use case put forth on these forums, and then some. They probably have an entire department/division dedicated to this.

I'm pretty sure this was part of the reason they wanted so much control over the update process, apart from preventing fragmentation on the level of Android and WM.

Making this usable will require the system to be broken and modified at several layers, and for an entire second app market to be set up similar to Cydia. Getting developers to go to that ... well... I don't see it happening, at least not enough to make the OS a usable alternative even to Windows Mobile 6.5 that the HD2 ships with...

Also, the "call Microsoft" method worked on the O2 device, because it is a WP7 device with the right hardware to activate correctly. The HD2 is missing that Key in the hardware. Even if Microsoft does give you the 5 sets of digits, the HD2 will still not be able to register the phone because that key is required upon registration. It goes into Microsoft's database.

If a bunch of phones start registered with the same key, Microsoft can simply blacklist that key the same way they blacklist Windows Volume License Keys when someone decides to start selling off cheap burned CD's of Windows with a VLK to activate it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] xmoo:
Will this work on the PRO THREE's??
[Windows Phone 7 General] hendr1k:
well may be some one will jailbreak WP7 soon enough, so we can install game/application same like wm6.5.

and redesign the UI so we don't need any connection to cloud services who knows.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
Maybe someone will write a new OS from scratch as well? You're better off just writing a really good WP7-style launcher for Android and using that, IMO...
[Windows Phone 7 General] nrfitchett4:
since there isn't a myphone for wp7 I don't think so. And if you can't access live services, then you might have trouble importing contacts as well (though I guess you could use gmail as a go between).

How is that more restrictive? Is there even 1 custom OS on an iphone? I haven't seen one.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Trig0r:
Only reason I wanted this was to decide if my next phone would be WP7 or Android.

The specs of the release WP7 phones wasn't anything new from my HD2 so after running Android on my HD2 I've ordered the DHD..

I'll have a look at the Wp7 phones next year and see how I get on with Android for now..
[Windows Phone 7 General] pack21:
Loool,

Clever MS$ boys?......Clever is the person who don't buy any WP7s Device.....they think people are blind, and others SO are sleeping at moment....lol

I don't want a full restrictive SO.

I Have SO much better than that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sir. Haxalot:
That maight be a valid point when iOS is fully functional on the HD2, which it isn't and wont be anytime soon.
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
WP7 is only functional on the HD2 because the HD2 shares a lot of hardware with the HD7 and meets most of the Microsoft minimums.

For the person up there talking about specs and WP7. Specs are a useless measure to measure these devices by, because most smartphones never get ridiculous OS upgrades, and in some cases (like iOS devices) it comes at performance regressions. Smartphone OSes have historically been tied to new hardware and that is just only beginning to change.

The specs of WP7 devices have proven to be more than enough to run the OS and applications. The fact that Android handsets need to have bloated specs to still perform worse than WP7 devices says a lot, IMO.

Most people can care less about modded ROMs.

Did y'all hear that Palm Pre, Pre+, Pixi, and Pixi+ are getting updates to WebOS 2.0? Google should be embarassed, TBH. It's the last smartphone platform dealing with the fragmentation issues that killed Windows Mobile, and it will began to frustrate even casual consumers soon - not that it already hasn't started to.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
What an idiotic policy. This just means that I'll have no choice but use pirated apps.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dusty_nz:
WP7

I think WP7 will still be good on the HD2.

Worst case it still only has the same functionality as WM6 really.

Eg Internet, Exchange and contacts.

I imagine it is only time until someone works out how to sideload apps.
[Windows Phone 7 General] emigrating:
And where would you get these apps/games from? Do you really think developers will jump at the chance to release their work for free thru a cydia-ish marketplace? I sure as hell wont, and looking at the quality of WM6 apps available for free I wouldn't want to download any of these hobby-projects either (yes, there are some great WM apps available - but the vast majority is IMO utils hacked togheter which may or may not work after hours of fiddling with settings).
[Windows Phone 7 General] pee-wee:
same old M$, genuine validation -_-!
[Windows Phone 7 General] thesecondsfade:
No, but if the WP7 is rooted/jailbroken I imagine the developers of the XDA Market apps or OpnMarket might design a similar marketplace for free and paid apps through them. It's only a matter of time. Who knows about MS too. If that happens, they might just open up their cloud services to any device ID. Probably not based on what I've read, but maybe eventually if a jailbroken device has a popular competing marketplace. The HTC market/other manufacturer markets will be in competition with MS's too so it might eventually just all get opened up.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thesecondsfade:
perfectly stated... and their validation has gotten smarter and smarter over time too.
[Windows Phone 7 General] iba21:
com'on guyz, don't be stupid..

hd2 isn't use at the top of it performance with an old OS like windows mobile 6. Wp7 will increase browsing speed using all of the specific hardware of the phone. it will use the gpu for video rendering, actually wm6.5 doesn't use it, so, all pixels rendering is "calculated" by cpu..

we have a snapdragon, yeah, but there's an andreno 200.. wm6.5 doesen't use the gpu as much as possible, because it's an OLD OS

thank you Cotulla, now we can have a powerfull HD2 ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
People bash Microsoft for making insecure products.

People bash Microsoft for making secure products.

Do people not realize that the "root" and "jailbreak" hacks are often huge security holes that the bad guys could exploit? The ability to go to a website and obtain root on my phone is NOT a feature!

Gotta love the irony.
[Windows Phone 7 General] pack21:
SO tell M$, to give us one official update to WP7s SO, like Google is going to make with Gingerbread3.0 to Nexus One.....we have too, high Hardware specifications.

If they make their choices, we will make as well, in a future buyer.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Nevralgeek:
Just a shame we can't upgrade GPU etc.

I think WP7 isn't finished, it may be some kind of "WP7 Basic", like Windows7 Starter Edition, without aero etc.

That's maybe why it's called WP7 series, we could have, in the future, a few versions, with special updates.

In that way, future devices with dual-core CPU, Tegra etc. will have a better UI, like the Zune's one, which is still far better than the WP7 version.

It's a shame.

WP7 would have been a lot more attractive if Microsoft released their own phones, with Zune shape + phone...

Great piece of hardware ! Such a wonderfull UI...
[Windows Phone 7 General] Zedox:
This.

People don't care anymore, they just want free stuff and things that work for them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] iba21:
yeah but, you don't know a special tips of HD2 SoC, Adreno200 has DirectDraw libreries, directdraw is a compute "program" witch include direct2D and Directcompute..

Our phone can renderize 3D vectors to 2D "vectors". Thus, IF wp7 is studied for direct2D (like windows vista/7) it "aero" support will be able to "calculate" by gpu

i see 2 windows phone 7 phones, like samsung omnia 7 and lg optimus 7, all of those are really fast with animating renderize, MY hd2 lose frames if cpu is already used by an application, because in wm6 ALL 2D "vectors" is calculated by cpu, so, less %free cpu, less framerate

i hope in this wp7, we have a directdraw gpu and we don't use this features?? this can be the real shame

you can see gpu info here

you can see directdraw info here
[Windows Phone 7 General] Nevralgeek:
Oh yes I agree.

That's why WP7 should work well on our HD2 now.

But what if they make some updates for bigger phones, like dual-core Snapdragon, Tegra Chip etc... ?

If they make games that are made for working well on these devices, a better interface (like the Zune one, multi-plans...) ?

Will the HD2 be able to make it working flawlessly ?

Same question for HD7 or Omnia7 etc... that are some kind of "minimal config requirement" for WP7 ?

I hope Microsoft won't try to be some kind of apple-bis, who made some iOs updates that don't seem to work well on older iphone/ipods.

It would be like installing Windows Vista on an old pc. :eek:
[Windows Phone 7 General] thesecondsfade:
I'm ready to be flamed for saying this because I'm positive that Cotulla has already attempted this... but couldn't you spoof the device ID with the one used by the desktop emulator to get access to the Live services?
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
After going to the TMobile store and playing with the HD7 for 30 minutes or so, I would use WP7 on my HD2 without the Live Services. The only one I would really want right now is the gaming and lord knows I don't need to get addicted to that again. I just loved how smooth and easy it was to use the system. Also, I thought a way has been discovered in the last week or so to side load from a PC?
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Let me know when the G1/Dream get's 2.0+. Google made their choice to not support it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] orb3000:
I agree!

No need for live services as long as you can use the device!
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
1. It's more than just a "device ID", it's a certificate that's signed by a Microsoft CA.

2. The emulator has no such thing. It cannot access the Microsoft services. This very well may be one of the reasons Microsoft is shipping a stripped down emulator.
[Windows Phone 7 General] mmelo76:
Does anybody think, that would not be better; merge this thread with this:

WP7 on HD2 [Cotulla Development status preview]]

????

Edit: Also put stick! What do you think?
[Windows Phone 7 General] ceesheim:
sticky and merge is a good idea :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] thesecondsfade:
I see. Well hopefully sideloading apps becomes available. Obviously piracy is a problem but then maybe developers would be open to selling their apps directly to consumers through PayPal or something... or possibly through an XDA created marketplace.

If sideloading is somehow enabled, it would be in developers' best interest to not rely solely on MS's Marketplace security measures and to create internal security parameters around their own apps. That would allow selling of apps through more avenues than just MS's Marketplace and also cut down on piracy.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
If that happens, you'd probably just see what has been happening to Android; subpar apps (as compared to other platforms) with advertising instead of a purchase model.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Win_XP:
Something interest from Cotulla's site:
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
I would hope not as the baseline for creating applications seems to be very well set in stone with a nice format from MS.
[Windows Phone 7 General] mmelo76:
Done. Thanks
[Windows Phone 7 General] thesecondsfade:
Why would it be any different that iPhone/iTunes? Most of what makes iPhone apps better is the developer kit. MS's developer kit is top notch from what I've seen.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
So far we've found out that WP7 won't fully work on non-WP7 devices without further hacking. Bad but expected news. It won't allow us to use our HD2s as real WP7 phones, but that's it.

Jailbroken WP7 devices won't necessarily remove the private key, however. So even a jailbroken device may still validate as genuine for Live services. Thus it may still be functional just like iOS devices are.

Early on, Microsoft claimed that device identification was required by the XBox team in order to be sure there's no cheating. Whether it's true or not, I can see some reason behind it - when you compete online you want to be sure everybody is using phones with more or less similar capabilities, and that achievements are truly earned. So HD2 may well be a victim of this policy.

What I dont get is why they block access to Marketplace. This is outright stupid and promotes piracy instead of fighting it. Why do they need to tie device identification, code signing and capability restrictions into one set of checks? Maybe they haven't, I don't think we know for sure. Let's hope not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ceesheim:
the way you speak your are one of the DFT , could you also tell us what will happen when we make (after DFT make is a HSPL) a custom rom for a real wp7 phone , would we have working .live services ?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
No, I'm not part of the DFT, sorry you got this impression, I didn't mean to create it. I'm just a regular user with some minor cooking and coding experience.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ceesheim:
Lol bummer but maybe you can still answer the question ?

Sent from my HD7 using Board Express
[Windows Phone 7 General] emigrating:
You're forgetting one thing - which is that running WP7 on a non WP7 device is, by default, piracy. Running a "cooked" WP7 ROM on your HD2 is very different from running one with Android (which is free anyway) or WM6.x (which is a minor upgrade to what originally came with your phone - hence already licensed).

Upgrading to WP7 from WM6 is sorta like Vista to Windows 7, i.e. not free of charge. Whereas upgrading from WM6 to WM6.5 is more like going from Windows 7 to Windows 7 Service Pack 1.

Does it suck? Sure it does, but let's be honest for a second and admit that the HD2 isn't a great device. It's a standard HTC device with all that entails (ie. crappy camera, questionable build quality and so on). If you're dying to try out WP7, sure, flash your HD2, but if you're really wanting to take the leap just go out and purchase an actual WP7 device (I would recommend a Samsung or LG as they both feel better than the crap HTC is spewing out these days). If you're quick it won't even necessarily cost you much as you can still sell the HD2 on eBay, craigslist or any other marketplace for pretty much the same as any WP7 device.
[Windows Phone 7 General] phantom92:
their has to be a way to fool the windows phone 7 OS to give access to all of those things that dont work without the Valid Microsoft ID and signature Certificate. Even if microsoft checks if the OS is running in the wrong phone and disables the features of the phone their has to be a way of making a fake Genuine patch to fool the system to think that its running on the correct phone so the phone could be used with all its features.. just like it works with PC OS.

It will be done, all it takes is time.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MartyLK:
And what you are advocating is illegal.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Samsunguy:
100 post

Lol it's funny because it is true.:D

When there's a will there's a way.

Finally I have 100 posts I'm now a senior member!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Windows Phone 7 General] Qwenjis:
I have a lame question.

Do I understand it right we will be able to make calls, send SMS, surf internet using either 3G or Wi-Fi and use other basic build-in apps. So what those Live services refer to? Updating something?

Because obviously if you read up WP7 reviews you know the OS is not as good as it may seem to. Almost all third-party apps work VERY slowly, you even have to wait app to reload again after the screen is unlocked.

Personally, I'd love to see WP7 running on HD2 even as it is now.
[Windows Phone 7 General] evolutionqy7:
well tbh its too early to make these assumptions. Who knows what will devs do when they start messing around with the core. As said before if some one put it together some one can take it apart and then do what they want
[Windows Phone 7 General] tomus:
Push?

What about push notifications? For Facebook for egzample. Do they go through Microsoft servers or aplication-specific ones? Will this part work? Also will I be able to sync with my own Exchange server?

Whatever are the answers, great thanks to the devs for such a great stuff and so much fun and... thrill? ;P

Greets!

Tomus
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I can't answer your question as I know very little about how the HSPL type hacking is done, but based on what I read on this genuine certificate thing I guess that jailbreak is a more viable way. There's also much less reason to do custom ROMs for WP7 than there was for WM. You don't need to bring Manila from an HTC phone to a Samsung one, or update the OS because your OEM didn't. There's also no reason to do light ROMs because there's little OEM crapware and it can be removed. Jailbreaking will let you modify the looks of the OS - my understanding is that it's a bunch of XAMLs.

True. I don't know how big of a threat custom ROMs are and suspect they aren't, but maybe Microsoft noticed that the total number of devices sold with WM didn't quite match their licensing revenues? ;-)

I would probably buy a WP7 device but Microsoft doesn't want to sell it to me for another year or so. I don't happen to live in a country where WP7 is sold. I can't import a phone either since WP7 doesn't have a Cyrillic keyboard and Marketplace rules make a third party one impossible. I do have a spare HD2 though, so wouldn't mind to try the OS out just for curiosity's sake. I can certainly live without Live services, and neither Marketplace nor Zune are available here anyway, so that'll do for now.

I'll tell you what will happen though. Some of my more competent and less patient compatriots will make it work without Marketplace and with native code to make Cyrillic keyboards possible. If I were Microsoft, I wouldn't combine all defences in one mechanism.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Push notifications aren't part of Live services but who knows whether they will be affected. In order to test them you'll need to install an app though, and for this you'll need Marketplace. :-)
[Windows Phone 7 General] tomus:
Isn't Facebook in People hub by default?

No Twitter though, I suppose :/

I'm really eager to try it out ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Skydrive, Zune, Messenger Social, Marketplace, XBox Live, stuff like Find My Phone, remote wipe. Maybe something else I forgot.
[Windows Phone 7 General] alphadeeto:
I'd still use it without Live.. just can't wait! :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] domineus:
with all due respect, while the development cotulla has done is amazing and beyond words to truly give users a wp7 experience, it is only a demo as he as said. Using a wp7 device, the live experience is horribly needed. Stock programs leaves you sms, email, and phone. That's it. If I were to judge wp7 on that, it would be fast, but lacking. What makes any OS shine is the programs that companies provide to the end user. Using wp7 without that due to live integration cripples the OS significantly and leaves for a bad experience. There is nothing like the xbox live hub, the full zune experience, and the programs (like facebook, and twitter).

It is a good thing to demo but its not real deal
[Windows Phone 7 General] jubeh:
What are you talking about? Android is not free like you imply. All HTC builds are their own property, as allowed by the Apache license, and it's still illegal to use or redistribute their content. Android is only free in that you can download it and modify it freely and you can re-distribute under your own terms as long as the license allows it, that means you can copyright your derivative work and prosecute those who steal it.

As for wm6.5, it's also illegal to distribute by unauthorized parties, and I doubt anybody here is authorized. Sure, you have a license, but if you were to actually read it you'd know you're prohibited from modifying, distributing, or otherwise tampering with the software.

Again, what are you talking about? The device's build quality is irrelevant to it's ability to run Live services once wp7 has been loaded.

And... comparing HTC's aluminum/soft touch/metal construction to Samsung's, say, Galaxy S' cheap plastic build, really?....
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
If the HD2 has the same functions as it does now then WP7 becomes a viable option. It is more stable, smoother and faster than WM. The one real issue is the sd card getting locked down. That needs to be worked around so side loading can occur for media playing programs, contacts, etc... Would I mind a new phone? No, but the budget says nada!
[Windows Phone 7 General] radoste:
Just give me a good browser for the WM6.5 and I will be a happy guy.

It does everything I need it to do.

I love sense.

The only complain I have is the browser.

How come there is no my phone for Windows7M?

Are they discontinuing the my phone?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Mithrandir007:
It does seem more stable, though WP7 is aiming at another market than WM6.5 and Android.

It's closer to the iPhone than to any other OS now, and that's what I dislike.

One of my colleagues (who has an HD2) just bought an HD7 last week, and is disappointed by the limitations of the OS (mostly about the Today screen that you cannot modify (except adding/removing tiles...), and which I think doesn't look nearly as good as HTC Sense on WM6.5 or Android).

He now went back to using his HD2 and said he's waiting for M$ to allow more customization.

From what he showed me and explained to me, this just confirmed what I thought : if I were to buy a WP7, I would quickly get bored (that's the reason why I never bought an iPhone), though having the possibility of running it on HD2 would be nice (with triple boot.. don't want it as main OS)

So, yes, it's certainly a good OS, but not for everyone (especially not for those who bought WM6.5 or Android devices to be able to develop mods and customize everything).

Just my opinion..

EDIT : Btw, I'm pretty confident that, just like the iPhone and iPod Touch (I have an iPod touch 1G & 4G so I know), it will crash when users install a lot of apps (some of them badly coded).
[Windows Phone 7 General] N8ter:
He's talking about the fact that the HD2 isn't that great of a device. If you're almost due for an upgrade, look forward to getting a good WP7 device, not running a crippled, pirated OS image on an old phone of questionable quality.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Samsung's phones have bad build quality (except the Captivate, that one is actually good).

But Samsung's phones aren't old devices running an old decrepid operating system yearning for some illegal ROM update, either... The subject of converstation is the HD2, not a Vibrant or Fascinate.