yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[G2 and Desire Z General] n3rdftw:
i came here pissed about the g2 storage

but reading your quote makes me even more sad

perhaps you shouldnt get a dual core processor that has more than 2 ghz, uses more electricity, you can get the same processes completed with a single core running at 1ghz

perhaps you dont need more than 256mb of ram, you can use disk cacheing to save some money

perhaps you don't need good sneakers, you have perfectly fine feet!

maybe you dont even own a jacket, cause you can easily just wear 10 tshirts of increasing size to keep warm, its a waste to spend money on clothing you only wear 1/4 of the year!

perhaps then you shouldnt get a place to live over 500 sq feet, you can only occupy so much room at the same time!!!!!!!!

you can watch your tv shows just as well on a 15 inch monitor as a 42 inch monitor!!!

you can live off of vitamins, water, and glucose forever, why pay money for flavoring and real food

god you're an idiot
[G2 and Desire Z General] KidJethro:
I love it. :D
[G2 and Desire Z General] AZ2ENVY:
I guess my 600+ HP Camaro is a burden ..... Too much HP and burns too much fuel ..... Jesus man I dont know what to say about your level of thinking .

I guess you drive a Prius and wear Hemp clothing ???
[G2 and Desire Z General] mtl171:
yet my wussy 288hp Tesla requires me to charge it every night yet it can still beat a Camaro in a race. actually thats a horrible analogy but what i'm saying is numbers aren't all that matter. While we might not need something, we still want it because its better. its why people who want to drive fast buy beamers instead of prius's. You might be raging about only having 1.2GB of internal memory but N1 users had 512MB and they were just fine.
[G2 and Desire Z General] TheMan42:
Drama queens in this thread can't let stuff go. Drop it, people need to stop acting like they have a vagina, plain and simple.
[G2 and Desire Z General] ericc191:
What about the women posting in this thread?:confused:
[G2 and Desire Z General] solace.discord:
I figure people who *like* vagina wouldn't be associating it with something so unpleasant.

call someone a drama queen.. fine.

don't suggest they have lady parts because of it.

it's offensive to those of us who have lady parts and aren't drama queens.

on another note, I tested the OS limitation theory this morning.. using a non-sense build for HD2, I changed a data img size in startup.txt to 4096, loaded the rom, and it didn't show. it took a while to make, but I only had about 1.6 available- same as if I had loaded a 2048 data img. I could see the loss of space on my sd card, so I can only assume the data img was at 4gb, but again, I could only see/access 2gb of it.

again I ask- could this be why other devices with larger memory chips haven't received froyo update yet? (or why they're slow to roll it out)
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
Are you sexist, or just a retard?

Maybe Google has to make the patch.
[G2 and Desire Z General] MCbrian:
Well, he's a T-Mobile employee...so consider the source. That's why all of his posts are essentially defenses of and apologies for T-Mo -- and without content other than that. That T-Mo has employees like this loser has to make you doubt their judgement in general.

Somebody who's so insecure that he actually calls himself "the man"? -- doesn't get much more lame and pathetic than that. :rolleyes:
[G2 and Desire Z General] InsolentMorder:
Really... Anyone even know linux?

The g2 does have the 4 GB internal as posted its just partioned so you do not see the whole thing. Anyone with actual linux experience should have figured this out within a couple of minutes. Just download Terminal Emulator from the market and type in df (display filesystems) because the full busybox is not included you are not able to add the appropriate Command line switch of -h to display in Human Readable format. BUT!! if you look next to each partition it says (block size 4096) meaning 4GB the out put will look similar to this depending on installed apps

/dev: 189916K total, ok used, 189916K available (block size 4096)

/system: 413040K total. 190272K used, 222768K available (block size 4096)

/data: 1336748K total, 142168K used, 1194580K available (block size 4096)

/cache: 197144K total, 16748K used, 180396k available (block size 4096)

/devlog: 20336K total, 6956K used, 13380K available (block size 4096)

/mnt/asec: 189916K total, OK used, 189916K available (block size 4096)

/mnt/sdcard This depends on you installed card

/mnt/secure/asec: Permission denied (you dont have root)

I hope this clears up this missing space issue. The space is there not all is available to install applications. You only see the /data partion when you look in sdcard storage! if you look the /data partion is only 1336748K This is why it only shows so much free space. Again APP is Terminal emulator YOU just type "df" no root required!
[G2 and Desire Z General] larryccf:
i'm not a tmo employee and agree with him - it's almost like folks, cause now they don't have the missing GB to complain about, need something to b--ch on,

in spite of the "missing 2GB" actually being there, somehow it's still "Tmo f-cked up" and better apologize

give me a break
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
Just some mind poop leaking, but maybe the hidden space is in /mnt/secure/asec?

Ain't that the truth.

Everyone needs something to complain about, it's as if they aren't complete without complaining.

Next they'll ***** about the screen not being 4.3" :p
[G2 and Desire Z General] TheMan42:
Pot, meet kettle :rolleyes:
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
You might want to research and make sure of what you are saying prior to rolling out the "anyone with actual linux experience" line. :)

The line

/data: 1336748K total, 142168K used, 1194580K available (block size 4096)

means 1.3GB (roughly) with ~142 MB used allocated in 4096byte blocks.

Or do you mean to tell me my SDCard:

/mnt/sdcard: 775372K total, 5290752K used, 2462976K available (block size 32768)

Is actually a 250GB SDCard? Block size delineated allocation for devices, it is not a multiple.

Now on to your correctable ignorance on /mnt/secure/asec. /mnt/secure/asec is a loopback device for Froyo's apps to SD implementation. Yes the partition is secured and we can not reach it in user space but the partition is a virtual one on the SDCard not in internal memory. All the partitions on internal memory have a size listed and the most definitely do not add up to 4GB. On the off chance that you are not familiar with a calculator the total of all partitions listed is 2,326,764K or slightly over 2GB.

Further, as has been discussed earlier in the thread, look at the output of "cat /proc/partitions". You being the big bad heavy linux guy did check that didn't you? ;) I appreciate your attempt at an explanation but unfortunately your logic is a bit flawed.

It boils down to the fact that in run-time kernel space we only have ~2GB of addressable space. The missing space may be used for whatever purposes pre load or it may simply not be addressable and will become available in the future. The things we can say with some certainty is that there is not 4GB of addressable internal storage once the Android system is done loading and that the missing 2GB is not being used by applications at runtime. Evidence points to the fact that hardware wise we do have what is advertised. What is missing is the reasonable expectation that with a advertised 4GB of space on the device that we would have access to this space with reasonable allowance for the OS.

Using an exaggeration to make it clearer if you advertise a computer with 1TB of space but only 512GB is available to the user then the advertisement is misleading and arguably actionable. A user seeing a computer advertised with 1TB of HD Space can safely assume that at least 900GB will be available based upon the typical install sizes of the OS plus value adds by the retailer. Based on other android devices and space used by the OS a reasonable user can expect at least 3GB to be available on a device with an advertised 4GB capacity.

Again, assuming we are right and the hardware is there this is not a huge issue. Given the large disparity between reasonable expectation and reality however it would be nice if T-Mo acknowledged a bug or gave a better answer than "it is used by apps" which is unlikely since, again, the missing 2GB is not addressable.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. "mount" would have shown you which partitions are using the internal block device, making clear that /mount/secure/asec is not internal storage.
[G2 and Desire Z General] moopile:
For what its worth.... From T-Mobile's Twitter page in ressonse to a question regarding the internal memory.

GeoffsReport Geoff Roberts

@TMobile It seems I have one of the "2 gig memory" G2's... actually it's only showing 1.20gb and i've only d/l a few apps. Any advice?

22 hours ago Unfavorite Retweet Reply

TMobile T-Mobile USA

@GeoffsReport The G2 has 4GB of internal memory, a portion is allocated for the OS and preloaded apps. You can always store apps to SD. ^CG

2 hours ago Unfavorite Undo Retweet Reply
[G2 and Desire Z General] MCbrian:
Start name-calling, Mr. Kettle?

#199

#228

#309

#409

That's all you do!

Whatever... :rolleyes:
[G2 and Desire Z General] RikF:
While I may agree with the sentiment, the irony in calling out someone for using sexist language by using language demeaning to those with developmental disabilities surely can't be lost on you?
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
True. I could have said "or do you have problems?", but it was 8:30AM and I had just woken up :p
[G2 and Desire Z General] Captainkrtek:
Please stop the flaming and whining in here, might close it soon
[G2 and Desire Z General] derek4484:
This is exactly like the Galaxy S ram issue. Samsung advertises 512MB RAM. But it really only has 304MB accessible by the OS. But they cant advertise 304MB RAM, because other phones have a true 512MB such as N1, Evo, Droid Incredible, etc. The Galaxy S has a 512MB chip in it but 208MB of that is locked away for some secret use, probably Vram or Ramdisk. And Samsung wont just come out and say where the missing ram is, they just claim that its 512 but when you do system info it clearly says that there's only 304MB, and after the OS is loaded you end up with only a bout 120MB free after task killing everything. And when everything is loaded I've seen mine dip down to 30-40MB free.
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
Sigh... how many times are we going to go over this. No it is NOT the same.

G1 (1.6) 256MB storage 71 MB left on stock device. So 185MB used by OS

N1 (2.2) 512MB storage 192 MB left. So 320MB used by OS.

G2 (2.2) 4096MB storage 1300MB left. So 2,796MB used by OS.

It is unlikely in the extreme that the same version of android is taking an order of magnitude more space. Yes there some additional apps (including swype) which could explain the 200MB or so of extra space being used. But not the other 2GB. I mean really, 2GB of space for user space apps would be hundreds of apps or at least dozens of games with significant graphics. There is nothing like that on the G2.

And not to sound like a broken record but the other 2GB are not showing up in /proc/partitions, mount, or df. So wherever that 2GB is it is extremely unlikely to be used by installed apps.

It is sort of funny, the assertions that go against all known evidence so far annoys me more than the fact that the space is not accounted for. Let people complain all they want, I don't really care. But don't try and make assertions that conflict with the known sizes of Android installations.

EDIT: Applicable XKCD http://xkcd.com/386/
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
read that post again. He's talking about RAM, not ROM. He's just got the 2 mixed up in that post.
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijoubu:
Just a thought:

The T-mo G2 spec states that is has 4GB (which we know that only 1.2ishGB is for user usage)

The Desire Z spec states that is has 2GB

There could be 2 possible reasons for this difference:

1) The Desire Z actually has a 4GB NAND but like the G2, only 1.2 or perhaps slightly higher say 1.8GB is available to user usage, but unlike Tmo which list the capacity of the NAND, HTC list the 2GB on the DZ as actual user available memory

2) The Desire Z has a 2GB NAND, because it does not have the safety rollback feature of the G2, thus not needing the extra memory for mirroring the OS?

I surely hope its reason 2!
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
Desire Z has a 2GB NAND, T-Mobile G2 has a 4GB NAND.

The version of Android installed can't see anything above 2GB.

Software bottleneck
[G2 and Desire Z General] ml2514:
Use Quadrant to check total memory of your G2

Run Quadrant Standard > System Information > scroll to Memory

It states:

Total: ~3.79mb

Free ~1.14mb

Inactive: ~1.79mb

so we have about ~1.8gb inactive to either the reserve/rootkit/later release will utilize (Gingerbread anyone?)
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijoubu:
It is just only confirmed that the G2 has a 4GB NAND via a teardown by a xda forumer. Its not confirmed whether the HTC specified (1.5GB memory) actually refers to a 2GB NAND, OR a 4GB NAND with 1.5GB free memory like the G2. Cause this whole Tmo 1.25GB free memory fracas happened because Tmo stated 4GB in the spec list. For all we know, HTC advertised the actual memory allowed to user (unlike Tmo), when in actual fact it has the 4GB NAND like the G2.
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijizai:
Come on guys, please stop confusing the issue by posting your own brand of 'technical data'. Please do some research first!

A size limitation by the Android OS is unlikely due to the fact that there is no single partition on the eMMC iNAND in excess of 2GB as proposed by others (discounting the fact that this has not even been a problem for many years), and the linux OS under the phone cannot even see the true capacity of the eMMC. While, it cannot see the eMMC capacity, it CAN see the full capacity of the microsd which is ALSO detected by managed by kmmcd.

Too many things scream shenanigans for me.
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijizai:
HTC website has complementary specs to T-Mobile website. Both state 4 GB.
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
Shut up.

http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=11652&can=5&colspec=ID Type Status Owner S

If you look deeper into that page, you will see that Android formats partitions as FAT16.

FAT16 = 2GB Limit

2GB limit = OS limit
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijoubu:
Soo... explain the 32GB microSD max capacity then.

Explain why the Samsung Galaxy S have no problems with 8GB or 16GB built in ROM
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
Wow, rude and wrong in the same post. Assuming you have a G2 get a console of your choice and run the command "mount". In this you will see that /system, /data, /cache, and /devlog are all ext3 not FAT16. EXT3 most definitely does not have a 2GB limit. Getting past that the format of a particular partition has absolutely, positively, nothing to do with how much space the OS can see for a particular device. So even if the Linux based Android system used FAT16 for the partitions rather than EXT3 there is nothing stopping it from creating two 2 GB partitions of FAT16 (as unwise as it would be to run linux on FAT16).
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
Oops, my bad. For some reason I had in my head he was trying to draw a parallel between missing RAM and missing storage. In hindsight I will blame Guinness. :)
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
It's quite obvious you did not even bother to click on the link in the post. If you LOOKED at the link, you can quite clearly see this:

<6>[ 5.314056] mmcblk0: mmc0:0001 SEM04G 2.10 GiB

So quite obviously, it's a kernel issue.
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
I read the page, and if you look back through this thread multiple people, including me, have said it is possibly a kernel issure. What does it being a kernel issue have to do with the incorrect statement that the partitions are formatted in FAT16 and thus limited to 2GB?
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
Yes, I admit I was wrong there. That's what happens when I dont read the full thing the first time. Now I'm not gonna continue arguing because I dont want to cause trouble
[G2 and Desire Z General] randumb:
yes. misrepresentation, closer to an objective point of view
[G2 and Desire Z General] :
Not really, the phone does in fact have a 4gb "internal storage" chip inside.

There's no claims of having 4gigs of available memory.
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijizai:
Can still be illegal marketing tactics. Either T-Mobile or HTC knew that the memory would be inaccessible due to a hardware or software limitation, but advertised the full capacity they did so with the full knowledge of their malicious action and negative impact it would have on the consumer, but decided that the boost in sales was worth it.

This is like me advertising that your new car gets 50 miles to the gallon in the city because of a revolutionary new fuel injection system, then delivering it to you with said system installed, but only working at half efficiency resulting in a fuel economy of 25 miles because I couldn't figure out how to connect the thing.

I still charged you for it, but failed to deliver on my promise.

I returned my G2... I am pissed that I had to. Not only that, but I had to PAY to send back this phone because I was 'in remorse' according to the T-Mobile Executive Customer Relations woman. If I get the chance to be in a class action, I am taking it.
[G2 and Desire Z General] magnafides:
If you return it w/in the first 14 days T-Mobile will credit you $10 for your shipping once they get the phone. Make sure you call Customer Care and give them the tracking number for the shipment.
[G2 and Desire Z General] jtc442:
Originally I got the vibrant, took it back on day 13 and got my g2. Highly disappointed in this phone and what they did. So I'm guessing I can still take this back as well as long as I'm within 14 days? Don't know what to get if I take it back though. Another vibrant?
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijizai:
Cost me $17 to return... That is still a $7 delta if they credit back $10.
[G2 and Desire Z General] androidtoy09:
Count me in for a class action. Perhaps, All G2 owners.

This is WRONG doing by T-mobile and HTC.
[G2 and Desire Z General] :
If you want to use automobile analogies, use the proper analogy of crank vs wheel HP.

=)

I wonder if people blow gaskets when they buy a netbook with a preloaded OS and realized the free space doesn't match the HD size advertised.
[G2 and Desire Z General] PaiPiePia:
My 13 GB vibrant laughs at you. Sorry just have to do it, there were some rude g2 owners.
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
If all my previous OS installs of the same type were 50GB (say 10% of the advertised space on a 500GB drive) and I get a new computer and the install was 550GB (say 55% of the advertised space on a 1TB drive, 11 times the size of previous installs) then yes I probably would be irate.

In this case though all current evidence points to the operating install not using the missing 2GB. Even if it were a mirror of the OS for tamper prevention (blech), why mirror the ~1.3GB of empty space?
[G2 and Desire Z General] VValdo:
Wow that was staggeringly wrong.

In case anyone's interested, there's speculation among the geniuses working on rooting the phone that the 2G vs 4G discrepancy may be related to the access mode that the eMMC is in. There is byte mode and sector mode, and if I understand it correctly byte mode is apparently only capable of accessing 2G. Whether or not the phone is capable of accessing all 4G (in sector mode) is an open question, but I have read it would require an updated kernel.

If you want to try to understand this for yourself, go to the rooting wiki and at the bottom is a link to the specs for the card where this is discussed.
[G2 and Desire Z General] TheMan42:
Hay guyz, I'm going to start a lawsuit on Seagate because back when I had purchased my 320GB hard drive, only 298GB was available! That's false advertisement!!!!! I can't handle the reality!!

That's what the G2 owners crying about internal space and threatening lawsuit sound like right now.
[G2 and Desire Z General] androidtoy09:
It is understandable and acceptable if 30% of the space is reserved for system. But more than 50% of missing advertised space is NOT acceptable. That IS false advertisement.

How do you explain the Desire Z vs G2 Specs discrepancy.

The Desire Z was advertised at 1.5GB internal storage and has 2GB NAND (25% used/reserved)

The G2 was advertised at 4GB internal storage and has (confirmed) 4GB NAND but only 2GB visible to system. That is 50% missing.

You’re an idiot.
[G2 and Desire Z General] :
Netbooks come with hidden partions that have a copy of the entire OS so it can be reimaged to shipped state.

As far as I know there has been no uprising because of that.

As for why mirroring the entire space? No idea, but it might be the same thing as with the netbooks, just easier to reflash the stock image.

The issue is 100% rectifiable by OTA however, so I can't really get my panties in a bunch over it.
[G2 and Desire Z General] TheMan42:
Thanks for explaining something I already know, beyond that the only people that sound ignorant are the ones crying because of the lack of patience in terms of having the issue rectified.
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
Well... and the people saying it is not a problem at all. Keep in mind unless there has been an announcement I am not aware of T-Mo has said that the current situation is correct and that 2.7GB is used for operating system and preloaded applications,

Now do you think you could possibly try and make a point on this thread without insulting people?
[G2 and Desire Z General] rr5678:
:p
[G2 and Desire Z General] roadrunnerx7:
hey thats interesting. it goes perfectly along with what a tmobile rep told me. they said they were working with htc to fix the issue, but she also mentioned that the phone indeed does have the 4gb onboard, but for some reason its not recognizing it. so its very possible its simply a software issue and she said they might just fix it with an update. id much rather it be a software issue than a hardware one :)
[G2 and Desire Z General] Cel1084:
Sorry thats the ram not the rom and thats not Gbs

it say 379832kB total

which is around 370mb or .36gb
[G2 and Desire Z General] MantisFang:
Default system info says i have... 0.98GB

How in the world are people getting 2GB?
[G2 and Desire Z General] MantisFang:
The difference here is that a netbook with an advertised 4gb of space would not monopolize 3/4 of that space for a system recovery partition.

If you bought a 400GB hard drive and were only able to use 100GB, you are telling me you would find that acceptable?

My panties are in a bunch, but only because HTC reps act as if this is common practice.

When in our reality, it clearly isn't.
[G2 and Desire Z General] :
Scale plays a big part in storage expectations, well to most people anyways.
[G2 and Desire Z General] JanetPanic:
not sure it is scale so much as percentage. Think of it this way. Android uses ~250MB, we will say for the G2 it takes 512MB. Cloning the entire system without compression still would only constitute 1GB. In reality those restore partitions on netbooks and some notebooks are compressed and designed to use minimal space so they do not take a significant portion of the HD, say 20% (10% on my old Thinkpad). 50% is not reasonable.

What we are getting is what we would expect if T-Mo dvertised 2GB of storage. It is not reaonable for 4GB of storage as advertised.
[G2 and Desire Z General] daijizai:
Lack of patience? Every time I have spoken to T-Mobile or HTC they have insisted that this is normal, and that there is no problem to fix. Action drives action. If people just adopted your 'wait and see' attitude nothing in this world would ever get accomplished because big business would simply think 'hrm, seems nobody cares so I get this one for free.'

Screw that...
[G2 and Desire Z General] :
I meant the actual lose of storage is more important than the percentage. That gig and a half people are stressing over is like...two tv shows. Comparing that scenario to getting a 500 gb 50% occupied is a bad comparison.