yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] Wunderwaffe:
You can't reason that way, because Apple profit margins are higher than those of the rest of the manufacturers. Only they can sell a phone with such poor specs (i.e, cheap to build) and sell it for such an outrageaous price. Those 14% generate more profits than Androids 17%. Besides, they have a costumer base that ranges from loyal to fanatic, that they can count on. They also save huge loads of cash on marketing. Newspapers, blogs and even the TV does much of their marketing for Apple, totally for free, without even realizing it. The debates, the fans and even the hatred towards Apple only manages to keep Apple on the news. One way or the other, Stevo always manages to keep Apple in the spotlight. No other manufacturer has been able to do that.

IMO, bottom line when it come to WM is:

If you lost you market share and the spotlight and want to be the top dog again, you can't just come up with something new. You have to come up with something way better than the competition! You need a product that leaves consumers (and geeks like us :D) salivating to get their hands on. WM7 fails to do that. Normal consumers don't seem to be waiting the new WM too enthusiastically and geeks are having endless debates on its shortcomings. That can't be a good sign. :(
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Maybe read my post again, cause I think I said that... If you look at Apple as a hardware manufacturer, they're highly profitable. But their platform, iOS, is hardly relevant and will lose relevance, whereas Android will overtale the market.

It's the same in the PC business. Macs make Apple a lot of money, but the platform isn't relevant at all.

Apple's PC marketshare is well below 10%, but Apple gets at least 50% of the media coverage. It's the same in the smartphone market, all the buzz is about Apple, but in reality, their platform will never gain a share of the market that's woth talking about.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
The "basic stuff" is all there. I was specifically referring to side loading.

Some form of multitasking will come. It will probably be more like iOS than Android though for performance and battery reasons. I said "true multitasking". Normal users don't care about how it works, they just want it to work. Which, as of now, it sorta does. The Bing app does navigation in the background now. You can use Zune to stream music in the background now. It's just 3rd party apps that can't do it yet.

You really need to get out of XDA a little more. Almost all of the blogs and writers that got review devices really like WP7. Normal people don't even know that it exists yet. They will when it gets closer to launch and Microsoft starts bringing out the advertising dollars (which is supposedly going to be big $$$) and there's devices in stores. It doesn't really make sense for them to do anything else yet. The tech media is already salivating for it. That's exactly what MS needs at this point in time. Many people believe that MS has come up with something WAY better than the competition. It's about more than items on a spec sheet.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
The basic stuff is all there? Are you kidding?

And I don't care about "will come". As long as it's not there, the OS is not competitive. That's all that matters. It's not like the competition will wait for them...
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
What's missing? Copy+paste and multitasking for 3rd party apps. I would consider those beyond basic needs for the average smartphone user. The key things are there.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
That's basic stuff. Copy&Paste, multitasking, sideloading, shared storage or file system access, HTML5... all basic stuff that normal users need just like power users, because they make the user experience better for everyone.

It's not 2007 anymore and there's no excuse for the lack of such basic features.

And the "will come" doesn't matter, because others have it now. They won't wait for Microsoft to get their act together.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I guess it's just a matter of opinion that we'll have to agree to disagree on.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Pick a video on youtube, and read the comments. Oh how interesting.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Oh gosh, this is going in circles again. Normal users this, normal users that. We'll see what normal users care about when the thing starts selling. There's just no freaking way to come to any conclusions about how important multitasking is to them in a discussion here. I'll let Microsoft worry about their market share and whether they made the right decisions and how fast they need to act if they didn't.

Wake me up when there's something new to talk about.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
What about the recent lawsuit of Google v. Oracle over Android?

News like that is actually coming at a good time for wp7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] enak:
Not just Android, but recent press about iPhone4 too. Microsoft have this in the bag... they just need to get it out of the door.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I don't think it'll matter, such a lawsuit will take aeons and will most probably end in either nothing or an off-court agreement. I personally have very little sympathy for either side, so any outcome will do as far as I'm concerned. :)

In any case, it's certainly not a reason to take WP7 over Android. ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I don't think Microsoft can count on support from the press... Think about it - recent jailbreak was built on a huge security whole in iOS. Than imagine what kind of criticism MS would get for anything similar. Apple and Google can get away with mostly anything. Microsoft will get grilled for any hiccup. So they'd rather focus on doing the best they can rather than try to point fingers.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
The case will take a long time of course...but the outcome is uncertain. And it's uncertain if Oracle just wants some cash, or doesn't want Davlik to exist. Uncertainty isn't a good thing, and it may put a dark cloud over Android or Java as a whole for that matter...even if nothing comes of this. You already see people saying things like "C# is now more open than Java". Regardless of if it's true or not, perception is what is important.

I must say...the irony that it's Davlik and not something like Mono in this situation is amusing :).
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That is indeed an interesting, if somewhat expected, twist. :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] paperclips:
The ONLY 3rd party app that I need running in the background is Pandora. If they get it to run through the Zune hub then to hell with multitasking for me. I don't care about sideloading, and I can't stand copy and paste on Android, even with Sense. Take these facts, Metro UI, Zune, Office, Pictures, and XBl is the reason I'm choosing WP7 over Android. I'll wait for a good implementation of C&P and Flash with this because for my needs, the pros outweigh the cons. The wait for Flash will hurt because that's the thing I love most about my phone right now. I think we really need to just stop assuming what everyone else needs and just choose what is the best for ourselves.

Yah, Sony is introducing a new gaming platform but you will have to buy that exact phone to get the most out of it. There will be some games that support all Android phones that run Gingerbread but it sounds like it's staying mainly on this psp phone because of the joypad. I'll stick with carrying a PSP/3DS for great handheld gaming and the casual games with my phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ not for me. The less devices to carry the better for me.

I'm sure MOST people who buys these phones will care less about multi tasking. Doubt if they even notice it. The problem is techies like us know its not there.
[Windows Phone 7 General] paperclips:
I'm starting to be the same way. I cut it down to just phone(used as social link, MP3 player, casual gaming and browsing.) and sometimes my PSP which is used for hanging out playing Monster Hunter, LBP, and MNR. True about the multitasking. I've never heard any complaints about multitasking from anyone I know. I've never heard anyone gloating over it either.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gerryjoson:
So why wouldn't you have switched to an iphone 3 years ago, like most rational people did that didn't really get on with wm, it seems to be closer to what your ideal is..e.g., no stylus, capacitive screen, swipey UI, no side loading apps, no proper text editing, tied to one source of software, multitasking, it just works etc? or are you such a big microsoft fan, you decided to wait for MS to release a clone, and then start singing the praises of iphone features?

Yes, wm is outdated and kludgy, that's why I still use it, it's not because it does things the others can't..rolleyes...yep having a "modern" day OS designed for fingers is soo great, until you realize how much extra input is required to do the same thing with text particularly, same thing with the increased finger friendliness in wm6.5, instead of simply dragging the stylus/fingernail/pen whatever over the desired text and either overwriting/copy/paste/delete/cut etc, you have to tap and hold and tell it you want to "select text" from a drop down menu first....extra steps, finger friendliness costs extra steps, no escaping it, I guess I'm not enough of a new age techno geek to see how extra steps to do anything is thought of as an advancement in OS design.

I agree with you on lack of updates, they could have done a lot to improve it, particularly with entertainment and multimedia as far as codecs, API's, and drivers, but as far as working with text, nothing from your "modern" list of mobile OSes beats it or comes anywhere near it for that matter.....unless you think more user input is better.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Because I hate Apple and would never switch to AT&T. Those are the easy ones. iPhone 3yrs ago had no apps. Those didn't come til 2yrs ago. Their app store policies are absurd. And yes, my opinion has changed on some things. Maybe I'm a hypocrite but over time (and no, not just since WP7 was announced) I realized that while iPhone doesn't have the "features" that WM has, it is far easier and more reliable to use. I briefly considered getting an iPhone 3G but thought better of it. I've always had devices with keyboards as I thought I needed them so that was another dealbreaker but I've found myself using the newer HTC onscreen keyboards almost as much as I flip out my keyboard on my Touch Pro. I really don't write that much on my phone so an onscreen should be fine for me. I'm the kind of person that if there isn't an app for my phone that I want, I'll write it myself. I'm not about to go buy a Mac and learn kludgy objective C to do that for iPhone. Not having a GPS navigation solution was a dealbreaker as well but they've recently fixed that too (they've long had mapping but not nav). The only thing that I do on my current phone that WP7 won't do out of the box is tethering. I'm sure that will come rather quickly with a hack though. And it's not that I really like all of those things (no side loading, etc), I just understand the reasons behind those decisions and think that they are for the better. I also know that people here will have no problem unlocking the things that MS doesn't want us to do so I'm really not worried about it.

And yes, I'm a bit of a MS fanboy ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
At least you realize it...

It's hard to dismiss the iPhone and like WP7 when you're not a hypocrite or total MS fanboy, because it's almost the exact same thing with a nicer surface.

And no, those limitations are not for the better, there's nothing good about them, for nobody. Just because they come from Microsoft this time doesn't make them OK suddenly.

Android 'just works' without that ****. Only bad programmers need that kind of limitations when they can't make their software work without them. Or companies that value their 'intellectual property' more than their customers.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
No 3rd party multitasking - prevents 3rd party apps from lagging the phone and chewing battery. Having to "force kill" apps after they're making your phone run like crap is hardly a good experience.

No side loading (unless you're a dev) - keeps apps in the marketplace which means you're pretty much guaranteed to find what you're looking for. It's a nightmare trying to find apps for WM

No C&P - no way to "spin" that (other than most scenarios are covered already) but it will come soon.

No HTML5 - HTML5 is hardly in use. But hopefully they'll bring the IE9 engine sooner than later.

What else?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
I already said it. Android just works without that ****. Nothing good comes from those limitations. There's no excuse for any of them. Anything else is a lie.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Is it not true that many devices don't allow side loading? And "it just works" is not true in the case of multitasking. When you have to use a 3rd party task killer to manage the apps running manually because the phone lags and your battery dies if you don't, that's not "just working".
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Multitasking on Android doesn't slow anything, battery life ia the same as an iPhone's and despite the sideloading, every (legal) Android app is in the Market.

It's also been said at lest a few thousand times that task killers don't do any good, because the Android OS handles multitasking perfectly. Maybe banning task managers would be a limitation that made sense.

(and before you tell me about any reports about bad performance, just go to an iPhone forum and you'll the that thing lags and crashes a lot more often than any Android phone)

Your claims are bogus. Lies that fanboys tell themselves before they go to sleep. But the reality is that there is no excuse for any of the limitations.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I'm not going to get into another pissing contest with you over this. I've made my case. If you're so bent on this, why are you here? You keep forgetting that this is the "Windows Phone 7" forum, not the Android forum. If you've already made up your mind that Android is better than anything else, I'd suggest you spend your time on the Android forums. You're not adding anything here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Yes you made yor case and it's bogus. You know that, that's why you are playing the "why are you here" card.

Well programmed software, like Android, makes limitations unnecessary. It's not our job to excuse their failures, it's their job to make good software.

You know, I already said I'm not a hypocrite and I don't care what company makes a product (I may be a fan of certain companies, like MS, but that does not take away my ability to judge their products rationally).

I also don't care what company you're a fanboy of. WP7 fanboys are not better than iPhone fanboys.

And I'm certainly a lot more valuable to any thread than a fanboy.

Unlike most fanboys, I've actually used all platforms and I know what multitasking does and doesn't do. I also know how well or not they work and one thing is for sure, its limitations don't give the iPhone any advantages. It lags and crashes just as often (and WP7 will, too) and its battery life is worse than almost all WM and Android phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Why don't we wait til it's out to see how often it lags and crashes?

It's a basic fact that multitasking will affect performance of foreground applications and battery life. It is impossible for it not to. If you disagree with that then I suggest you study up on your computer science. Instead of comparing apples to oranges with diferrent hardware/platforms, I will state a fact. WP7 with applications running in the background will have lesser peformance for foreground apps and battery life than WP7 without applications running in the background.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dspjern:
Coming to Android from a wm6.1 Unit i'd say;

Android. - If you want fun from it and are a techie that like to tinker and fiddle with you gadget

iphone - if you want a fun unit but lack Tech skills

WinMo (any) -if you use it for work as a mobile tool and like to get things done.

Since i switched a month ago i've been putting in endless hours to get this thing working work-wise, synch ALL Outlook datatypes and my Web favorites - without even beeing halfway today.

(But having some fun on the way)
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
And I will say again - a veeeery bad logic.

If the programmer cannot make things work

he should quit his job.

I agree with others - my WM device has NO multitasking problems

and battery life is better than most devices still.

The thing which really drains battery is CONSTANT internet usage/connection which every OS starts to require, yet nobody worries about.

I'm absolutely sure limitations have NOTHING to do with beeing good for users.

My friend has Desire on Android and man, it flies.

No limitations.

The discussion is hot because WP7 promisses alot

and nobody here wants to be forced to leave it because of these things, including me.

This kind of clean OS plus multi capabilities including missing ones - that would kick my ass!!!!
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
I agree 100% with your post, doministry.

@Rusty

The effect multitasking has on performance and battery life is practically nonexistent.

And that's obvious, cause idling apps don't use processing power, they don't slow anything down. If apps in the background need processing time, it's because they have a task to complete (playing music, downloading a file....) and in that case, the user clearly wants them to be running.

That means there only is an impact on performance or battery life if the user wants that. And in that case, multitasking is better than no multitasking, obviously.

Android phones with ten apps running in the background still have the same battery life and lag less often than an iPhone, because the OS is better. If you have a bad OS you need limitations, a good one like Android just works without them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ I can agree with that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] crackedvenom2:
the first winmo phone i have had was crap. it was the htc diamond. if i remember correctly, the battery was def better than my droids but the thing was terrible. massive lagging. answering the phone, internet, file menu all lagged. i remember i tried answering a call once and it took at least 5 seconds when i dragged the icon. I actually planned on staying away from winmo, but wp7 is looking good so far. Im actually thinking about saving and getting one.

we'll see.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Tom Servo:
Clearly a bunch of you aren't programmers or know how an operating systems works. Keep digging a hole, this thread is hilarious.
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
MY touch pro 2 suck at multitasking...If sense in enabled then i cant run coreplayer to listen to a podcast while browsing the web with opera..it always automatically closes coreplayer no matter what rom im own...it suck because thats pretty much the only time i need to multitask.

Maybe that has more to do with sense using up all my ram, but i guess that wont be a problem with wp7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
WP7 can't do that either ;)

(there's no streaming in the background, no opera and if there will be a coreplayer, it can't run in the background)

Android of course does that perfectly...
[Windows Phone 7 General] paperclips:
Microsoft is currently working with some developers about getting multitasking with streaming services to run through the already established hubs like zune. Alternate browsers are most likely going to happen in the future, and if you don't like wp7, I really don't see why you continue to waste your time here. It's not like you're going to convince anyone to just style for android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Who said I don't like WP7? I don't like ridiculous restrictions, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing good about this OS.

I'd buy it immediately if they removed those stupid restrictions.

I'm just clarifying some myths, like restrictions doing anything good for the user, which is definitely not the case.

Android phones get the same battery life and less lag than iPhones, so obviously multitasking isn't a problem. Applications running in the background only have measurable impact on battery life or performance if they have tasks to complete - like streaming music or downloading a file - and in that case, clearly the user wants them to be running and knows what's going on.

And in the case of WP7, there aren't even any low end phones...

Despite that sideloading is possible, all (legal) Android apps are in the Market. If the market is 'censored', sideloading needs to be enabled, it's that simple.

Companies can enforce whatever restrictions they like on their own application markets, but they must not dictate what the user can or can't load on his phone.

Unfortunately, there are too many Apple fanboys in the WP7 team, like Mel Sampat, who recently left Microsoft and founded a dating site for Apple fanboys.

That's why the WP7 team seems to believe they must build something similar to the iPhone. But that's not the case. The iPhone is fading into irrelevance, just like the Mac, and Android is overtaking the smartphone market.

If they want to succeed, they need something competitive to Android. WP7 clearly isn't.
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
I use a zune HD now for my podcast so wp7 will do that quite nicely since zune can run in the background, plus i only used opera because IE sucked on wm i have no preference for a mobile web browser IF IE7/8 performs well & from the videos it looks like it will then ill use that (dont really have a choice anyway)

dont worry about me wp7 covers everything I care about on my phone right now..only thing I want on wp7 that isnt gonna happen is a nice kama sutra app, but I can live without it since i dont have a good 1 for the phone i have now...o I cant forget wifi tethering even tho i rarely use it I do want & will miss that :(
[Windows Phone 7 General] satchef1:
Is it just me, or have Android fanboys have finally overtaken Apple fanboys in terms of arrogance and annoyance factor?

I guess a round of congratulations are in order...
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Yes, there's something wrong with you, satchef. Fanboys are the people trying to excuse ridiculous shortcomings like the lack of multitasking.

Most Android users just use Android because there's no alternative. Many would be glad if WP7 were competitive and that's why they complain about those stupid restrictions.

What you guys fail to understand is, that the people who complain about WP7's shortcomings in fact want to switch to WP7, but not as long as it's held back by stupid limitations.