yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
^Ditto

Plus I've met many, many non geek users who are really praising Android for it's performance and stability. Without any extra maintence.

But it's in the end good for any maker that a competition is tight.

I just have hope WP7 will be better and better, 'cos some of the things they propose

are good. I'm definitely interested in the smooth and simple UI,

as well as eye candy is nice, it also makes me tired of working with this.

WP7 is something like "invisible" what can be really great feature once you spend A LOT of time with the device.

I just hope again all those missing things will appear.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
To be fair you're not representing the issue fairly...Android the OS are getting updates really fast. However that doesn't translate to getting the OS on the devices really fast. Hopefully the turnaround between OS update and actual delivery to a device on wp7 will be better.

Does it really matter if there's a new version of android every 3-5 months if it takes 2-3 more months to get it on your device? Is that different than getting an update practically once a year to you?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
If they announce an update every 3-5 months and you get it 2-3 months after the announcement, you still get an update every 3-5 months... obviously.

Sometimes people should take at least 3 seconds to think before posting...

And of course, that's very different from once a year. It's 3-5 months and Android updates usually bring real innovation, not just basic features like multitasking or wallpapers.

In fact, if you look at it from this perspective, if you don't count basic functionality updates, iPhone users NEVER get any updates. Every Android update brings something new, iPhone updates only add basic features that should have been there from the beginning.

As long as Android stays far far ahead of the competition, there is nothing wrong with the business model. And with exciting new stuff every 3-5 months, it sure looks like it will stay ahead.

Typically Microsoft, they don't realize who their real competitor is. They don't make bad products usually, but they don't understand the market. They are still trying to compete with the iPhone, when the iPhone is already losing market share and Android is growing like crazy.

Will Microsoft this time realize who they have to compete with, before it's too late?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Bengal34:
All WP7 devices will be able to be upgraded the day the new version gets released because Microsoft is going to handle the updates themselves so you won't have to wait for Samsung or HTC to do so. This is the advantage to locking down the UI.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
How does this matter? Microsoft is at least one year behind. If Samsung, HTC take 3 months to release an update, Microsoft is still 9 months behind.

It just doesn't matter whether you get updates directly or not. It would matter if Microsoft and Google were competing head to head, but they are not. HTC and Samsung could hold those updates back a whole year and Android would still be ahead.

And most importantly, if Google didn't announce the new versions, you wouldn't even know that there is an update until Samsung, HTC release it.

That's the only difference: Microsoft will announce updates when Samsung, HTC are ready. They still need to be tested on all the phones. Google announces them before they are tested. The difference is not in when you get them, but in when they are announced.

Seriously, just think before posting.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
So all devices will get the updates at the exact same time? So what about updates to carrier specific items such as T-mobiles' myfavs and other carrier items?

What about device drivers? Such as camera buttons, keyboard mappings?
[Windows Phone 7 General] iamcrazyfire:
This is not really true,if HTC or Samsung don't need update their ROM ,M$ can release the patch to user directly ,user can update the patch by Windows update or Zune. This wp7 new mechanism
[Windows Phone 7 General] iamcrazyfire:
On new mechanism, carrier ROM and Wp7 OS is separated. If carrier don't need update their driver something like that,M$ can released the update patch on air.

If carrier need update their ROM, carrier need provide rom to M$
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
So.... The updates will be pushed much like they are on the PC?

please tell me this isn't so.

(side note DaG stated they are already working on version 7.1)
[Windows Phone 7 General] lordcanti86:
Small updates will be OTA, larger updates through the Zune software. Honestly, I like this update mechanism a hell of a lot more than Android's (which is sit and hope that your carrier and OEM is kind enough to update your phone)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Doubt there will be any large updates if it is done this way.

More than likely, small patch updates that offer nothing worth wild for the end user. Stuff that we won't recognize.

Which sucks
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
The updating mechanism was a huge focus point. We will see very significant updates simultaneously released to all devices. Why do you think there's such specific requirements for the hardware? Also, the OEM pieces are partitioned off from the MS code. Da_G has made several posts about this (and how it's different from WM6) and you can also read up on it in the OEM guides leaked a while back. Think iPhone with the additional benefit of OTA updates and not the mess that is Android. Also, even if your phone needs a full ROM update (done through the Zune software) you won't lose your settings and apps.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
A big advantage is that WP7 actually supports OTA updates from day one, as opposed to some other OS I could mention (hint: it's not iOS)
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Because every phone WILL have different hardware elements, camera module just to name one. But probably once the update is released, EVERY device will have it,

opposed to WM where some of them never got WM 6.5 for instance.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Driver updates are rather uncommon compared to security updates, performance and stability fixes, and API fixes/new functionality.

Android's update model show how terrible it really is here. Recently a 100 day old security problem was spotted, but it's unlikely that the around 50% of Android devices not scheduled to a 2.2 upgrade, will ever get a security fix for this one.

The 18% without a OTA updater stands even worse.

So it's good to see Microsoft bothering to think the concept though before launch, as opposed to Google.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Not sure what you're trying to say, but I know an OS that supports OTA updates for EVERY update, not only small ones like WP7!

I guess you were talking about Symbian...
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
This is probably why Apple has stuck with one design.

This stuff just won't work, every device getting the same update.

Great for us, bad for the OEMs. They will have absolutely no incentive to make new devices. None!
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Right but the OS can be updated independently of hardware drivers (including camera). The hardware specific pieces are in separate files. They even separated the kernel into two parts; the normal NK.exe that contains all the Microsoft code and NK.dll that contains the hardware specific bits.

Yea, that's precisely the reason Apple has only made one iPhone. Noone will buy the new one if the previous version runs the same OS.

Microsoft has required that the devices are similar enough (all running the same CPU/APU and many other components) and compartmentalized the OS the point that the platform is relatively hardware agnostic. There is no reason that they won't be able to pull this off.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ if you were an OEM, why would you make a new device?
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
New features/design? They are allowed to add more stuff, just not take away. Hardware will get faster, smaller, and more power efficient as time goes on. MS will also be rolling out different "chassis" specs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ the system is locked down, so what new feature can you add to make your device stand out?
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Front camera, gyroscope, higher res cameras, more camera features, better/bigger/smaller screens, faster CPU, more/less storage space, physical keyboard, different form factors, etc. There's plenty of room for variation. Again, Apple has managed to release a new iPhone every year with hardly anything new over the previous version.......
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
The same with the PC, and laptop markets...newer software will drive a need for newer hardware.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
It will still be the same software. Those are all hardware, what about new features for current hardware?

What about new proximity features, new auto volumes? New services?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
That's .my point, we will only get small updates like the PC, no new features. None.

All of this update stuff is just hot air, like on WM.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
What? I thought you were saying that they can't differentiate in the hardware and therefore couldn't sell new devices? Now you're saying they need new features for current hardware? The phones do have a proximity sensor...

You can keep saying that but the facts disagree.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
What in the world are you talking about? Why should it be this way?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Yes new features for current hardware. Perfect example when HTC updates a phone, they update damn near everything, new services for proximity sensors, new volume control features and software.
[Windows Phone 7 General] iamcrazyfire:
Your PC can't add exta hardware?:confused:
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
When HTC releases a device it's full of bugs above its ears. Then they (slowly) issue fixes for God knows what, and then, after a year, they can finally fix something important. And then they stop updating it at all. What new features did HD2 get?

Besides, what will prevent HTC from updating their software, if they add it? What is new in WP7 is that Microsoft will be able to update their software regardless of HTC, which is a great thing. Lack of native APIs and restricted set of native APIs for OEMs may suck for a great number of reasons, but one thing is certain, it can make updating the OS much easier.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Microsoft will be able to update everything in the OS. The drivers themselves rarely get updates and those can still be released by the OEM through Microsoft. "New services for proximity sensors, new volume control features and software" are all part of the OS in WP7 so that would be Microsoft's doings. Any apps shipped with the phone (ie Sense) would fall under the same update mechanism that all other 3rd party apps use.

Microsoft is a software company. They will release new software. HTC is a hardware company. They will release new hardware. Let them both do the things that they're best at.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
What new features did the HD2 get?

How about a new Sense, and new HTC services. Auto volume control updates.

Features you won't find in any other device.

besides Hardware all WP7 devices will be the same.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
For the most part, yes. Manufacturers will be able to include up to 6 applications and will be able to extend some things such as the camera. But that is precisely the point. Too much fragmentation is hurting WM6 and Android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
I think thats the point, when people buy a wp7 they know they are getting a high quality device thats not limited unlike with andriod somebody mite hear how great android is & then go get one & its a low quality phone thats lagging with bad battery & then they feel its android fault...with wp7 you will get the same experience no matter what phone you get
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
You are right about the fragmentation part, but I don't want to depend on microsoft for any new feature. Back to my first point no incentive for OEMs to keep making new devices with new software features. The OS itself just won't take full advantage of the hardware.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
The hardware manufactures should stick to what they're good at -- hardware!

Leave the software to the processionals.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, I certainly don't want to depend on HTC for any software. Sense is ultimate crap in how it's written. Actually, it's an ultimate example of how not to write software. It's 3000 lua files dumped in \Windows directory, completely uncustomizable, unupgradeable, slow, resource hungry crap. Yes, I like how it extends WM functionality and I use it, but it's an atrocity when you look at how it's made. But although I welcome the extensions... Who got this stupid idea of making media player, weather and stocks in the form of tabs on the home screen? Written in lua? Hello, anybody home? And HTC drivers? Where's 3D? Do you know how crippled their hardware key drivers are on HD2? Their Wi-Fi router thingie tries to connect to my MMS access point. It took them forever to remove the horrendous lags in their SMS client. Their music player was stuttering since Diamond. On HD2, it would reset equalizer after each song and sometimes stop. Their volume overlays and notification enhancements are great, but they break with minor changes in the OS dlls, lots of things are hardcoded, so everything breaks when you change an OS build. When you use a headset, it remains unlocked in your pocket after a phone call. I can go on forever. No, HTC should actually be banned from writing software. Forever. Or at least they should be tightly controlled. And this is true about every OEM.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Fragmentation is hurting Android? Really?

Then why is Android now the number one selling OS in the USA and number two worldwide?

Why did Windows become number one OS with 95% market share? It's highly fragmented: XP, Vista, 7, even 2000 is still around... and Windows applications don't run in a VM like Android applications!

It sure looks like fragmentation doesn't hurt anyone. And by the way, WP7 will be just as fragmented. Newer versions will require newer hardware and older phones will be left behind. That's the nature of technology. It happened with the iPhone, it will happen with WP7 phones.

And can anyone tell me why Windows owns the whole PC market if fragmentation is so bad?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
It's sold because it's presented as a cheap iPhone replacement (and the sole iPhone replacement on Verizon in the US). It's sold because it's a good deal a lot of times. It's sold because it comes on dozens of devices and is pushed vehemently by many operators who get cash from Google in search deals. It doesn't mean that the experience people are getting is flawless. Also, most people have no clue what version they buy and what they miss buy not getting the upgrade (or even when they miss it, they don't know there's a possible upgrade that would solve their problems). That they can't get a game to run on their device they find out only later.

Because Windows is different from platforms running on ARM processors in that despite a huge variety of hardware PC is a very coherent platform as a whole; Windows has hardware abstraction that lets programs run on different hardware; also, there's a lot of compatibility between different Windows versions. It's also different in that programs for Windows cost a lot more and therefore revenues compensate for the extra effort it takes to test software on different hardware. Also, you don't get a new version of Windows and WinAPI every three months.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
I hope you realize that you're talking complete nonsense.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I'm not referring to the years of updated versions but the various devices shipping with massively different hardware running different versions of the OS. I could go dig up a 10yr old PC and run 90%+ of the software that's on the market today. My current machine running Win7 x64 still runs software written over a decade ago. When I go buy a Windows machine, it comes with Windows 7, not some version of Windows 7 released 3 months ago that is now outdated. When SP1 ships, I won't have to go beg Dell to let me have it 3 months after it comes out. Android has had several releases with significant breaking changes in the not even 2yrs it's been on the market and Apple just released their first OS that broke compatibility with the first iPhone after 3yrs on the market. Yes, Android is still selling well. But wait until there's a real competitor and the user satisfaction issues have time to sink in. And just wait until Google releases 3.0 probably this fall that very well may not work on any current devices.

But back to WP7... the device you buy this fall will run the same OS as a device you buy next fall, the year after and probably beyond. You just can't say the same for Android. In addition, when MSFT releases an update, it will be available to all devices simultaneously -- you won't have to wait 3 months for HTC to re-hack Sense to work with the latest OS release.

P.S. I'm not going to continue discussing Android as I don't want this thread to turn into yet another Android vs WP7 pissing contest.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
And what's the difference to Android? None. Android is even better than Windows at keeping compatibility!

Like a ten year old PC runs Vista, right? Dream on...

Oh, and the iPhone 3G sure does an awesome job running iOS4!

Issues?

http://www.appleinsider.com/article...action_in_android_approaching_the_iphone.html
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Exactly. And there's been a lot of changes in both the hardware and software in these 10 years, it's not like everything was standing still.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
When was Motorola Droid released? End of 2009, right? That's basically when Android started as a mainstream platform. Any customer satisfaction data prior to that is from early adopters.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Fragmentation doesn't hurt Windows and it doesn't hurt Android. Android is better than Windows at keeping compatibility.

You WP7 fanboys are pathetic, desperately seeking for nonsense reasons why fragmentation hurts Android but doesn't hurt Windows.

But you won't find any reasons and fragmentation doesn't hurt anyone. Lacking multitasking hurts a lot.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I'll just put it this way. Go buy a G1 (the original flagship Android device). Is it running the current OS? Do you have access to the latest features such as Google Maps Navigation?

Enough with the Android stuff. This thread is about a "multitasking" app in WP7 lol.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
No change in 2010:
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Whatever. I'll keep out of this discussion with you, as it's not an Android vs WP7 thread.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
I'll just put it this way: Buy a WP7 phone in October and see whether it can do as much as 2012 WP7 phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Multitasking DOES hurt every platform. Just ask Microsoft about their "Vista Capable/Ready" legal and customer satisfaction issues.

Android fragmentation is on the order of months. Windows fragmentation is on the order of many years, if not decades depending on how you look at it.

While I don't have the ability to time travel, I would put money on it that 2010 phones will run the same OS as the 2012 phones and have the same API set. There may be some new things that the 2012 phones do that the 2010 phones don't (front facing cameras?) however it won't be as drastic as it is on Android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Yes, keep out of the discussion, it's better. You haven't said anything that made sense anyway.

Better keep out instead of talking more nonsense.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
I guess you mean fragmentation.

Who cares? They own the PC market. Android overtakes the phone market. Fragmentation doesn't stop them.

Windows fragmentation gives Apple fanboys something to talk about.

Android fragmentation gives Apple (and WP7) fanboys something to talk about.

That's all fragmentation does. It gives fanboys something to talk about.

It didn't stop Windows from owning the PC market and it doesn't stop Android from taking over the phone market.

And by the way I didn't start the fragmentation bull**** discussion. I know it's OT but it was you guys who started the nonsense and I have to respond if someone posts nonsense.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
My point is that there's an order of magnitude difference between Android and other platforms. The time scale is extremely important. When a device is still on the market and not shipping with the latest OS and not even plans for it to get there, that's a big problem. You won't find that in the Windows desktop or Apple ecosystems and thankfully not WP7 either.

There really isn't much fragmentation when it comes to the desktop for the most part. Like I said, a 10yr old desktop will run most of today's software. However, a good example of fragmentation killing something is PC gaming. Yea, it's not "dead" but why do you think console gaming has completely dominated the PC over the last several years? Fragmentation is much more than just fanboy fodder. Ask any developer. It affects developers even more than it affects users.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
I understand your point but it's complete nonsense. The "scale" doesn't matter when it's not an issue.

Maybe there are six new Android versions between two Windows versions. But a new Windows version easily breaks six time more applications than a new Android version.

Your "scale" argument doesn't hold any water. It's not about the rate at which new versions are released, it's about the rate at which apps become incompatible.

This rate is higher for Windows, because Android is better than Windows at keeping compatibility. Applications run in a virtual machine, as long as they don't use native APIs, compatibility is 100%. And WP7 doesn't even let you use native APIs.

You won't find any difference between Windows and Android fragmentation, other than that it's even less of an issue for Android than it is for Windows.

It didn't stop Windows and it won't stop Android. It's not even worth talking about. Because in the end, all that matters are sales and Android is just overtaking the whole smartphone market, like Windows owned the PC market.

Fragmentation won't stop it, not even slow it. Only a good competitor can stop it and WP7 unfortunately is no competition in its current state.

Fragmentation gives fanboys something to talk about but nothing else. And if WP7 had some real advantages, you wouldn't have to talk about non-issues like fragmentation.

How about talking about the real advantages, instead of defending the shortcomings?

Stop defending the lack of multitasking. It sucks, plain and simple. You can't defend it and there's no excuse for it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
If Android had some real advantages, you wouldn't have to talk about non-issues like multitasking.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
Now you're getting desperate. You sound like an Apple fanboy from 2008. :D

Multitasking is a real advantage. So are app side-loading and file system access and customization and HTML5 and Flash and the Webkit browser engine and native APIs and a hundred thousand apps and USB storage mode and...