yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Wow, so a hub is basically a widget? It works exactly the same in Android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
No.

Try read the article?
[Windows Phone 7 General] MHC48:
Definitely a good article with insight - if he's right.

But if you read back a few entries, he doesn't seem to have an evaluation phone and it's not clear he is using the developement tools for WP7. So is this all conjecture from reading other evaluations or is he right????
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Huh? It's a evaluation of the the concept of Hubs (versus applications), not anything technical. So I don't understand your point?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
I did, and that's exactly what a widget does in Android. Only in Android you can do more with a widget.

Sent from my Hero CDMA using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
No it's not, and no you can't do more with a widget. Do you even know what the hell a widget is?

This is a Android widget:

This is a information Hub:

And for god sake, turn that retarded spam off your damn phone application.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Its off.

That's one of the many types of widgets in Android. Here are more useful ones.

That picture you showed was of the hub opened, i.e. clicked on. You went into the entire office app.

You obviously don't know what the hell a widget is.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
That has less to do with hubs and more to do why the iphone's app integration is bad, imo. Apple could perform a similiar flow in their app based system if they made a way to register application with entities. So that use case described in the article is not exclusive to the hub based architechure, but because of ways to register an entity with an action.

What is nice about the hub is that you don't have to have a twitter app and facebook app, you could have them integrated into one hub and not have to bounce around your device. It's a nice way to aggregrate similiar functionalities while allowing a way for differentiation between the 2.

A hub is more of a splash screen of like functionalities. It's capable of supplying information at a glance. Glancing at random icons for apps gives you little to no information. Glancing at a hub provides a depth of knowledge.

A widget also provides information at a glance. But the scope of a hub is more open to interpretation and design. So when displaying large amounts of information, it becomes cleaner than craming it all into a widget. While you could make a hub like widget it would look cluttered and is not a suitable tool for the job.

What he showed you was the hub...I think you're confusing Hub with "Live Tile" and a Hub's "Live Tile". In that regard, I agree a "Live Tile" is a widget (I think of it more as an updated Icon). Just one that microsoft wants a pretty standard look n feel to. There's nothing really stopping anyone from making an application that aggregrates other applications, intertwines them with splash screens and call it a hub. It just hasn't been done to the scale MS is doing it in wp7 as of yet, imo.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
My fault I did confuse hub and live tile.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
*sigh*

So you did not read the bloody article. Stop lying, it's pathetic. There's images in the article, you can't in any possible fashion misunderstand it like that, without just reading the headline and basing your conclusion on that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Ok smart ass

In response to the article, we have been doing that in Android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
That's just shortcuts, it have nothing to do with 3rd party made Hubs, that are made to be information centric.

The closest you can get in Android, is using one of the 7 "screens" to add several widgets for the same topic on. And it's hardly the same feeling.

It's fairly clear you haven't bothered to read the article, or understand the concept in depth. Why do you wish to argue just to prove you're a Android zealot who hate everything that isn't Android?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You have been doing what in Android?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Da_G:
@Windcape:

Please check your PMs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
In the article it says in app centric environment you have to back out of the gallery, to post a picture on twitter.

In Android you don't have to back out to accomplish this.

I'm ignoring windcape from here on.

I'm a MS fan
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
You don't have to step out of the windows environment to see that, I do the same in wm 6.5 via "Send to" or "Upload to". Although it's much more well done in wp7 from what I've seen thus far.

WP7 is really about getting a few features all phones can do, integrating them, and coming up with a nice UI to put it all together. Another big push is integrating many of MS's services & technology into one device.

-Xbox

-Zune

-Office

-Sharepoint

-Live

-SkyDrive

-Bing

-TellMe

-Sea Dragon

-XNA & Silverlight

I'm probably missing a few, but the OS looks well put together that you never really realize how many things are actually integrated and it all just flows and hopefully does what you expect it to.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
But that's only one small thing done in the Pictures hub. It pulls pictures from multiple places (your phone, MMS, Facebook, whatever) and lets you effortlessly view them in one convenient place.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
I think his point is that it can be done by other means in an app centric model. All you need is an app downloading stuff from facebook and adding it to your picture gallery. Then you have the same features without the hub.

What the hub does offer that the app centric model does not is the ability to consume information from several applications at a glance. However, in the end the "hub" is just an app that aggregates apps and gets information from them. But it's nice to draw a distinct between the Hub and "true" applications.

If anyone saw the ted video on pivot, this view of aggregating data together at a higher level offers new information that can quickly be seen by the user.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Yeah, its done the same in Android(depending on your default app).

I just wish MS was doing more. besides the "Start" screen everything else looks nice.

Won't know actual performance until its out.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
What do you mean? There are many videos of it flying on dev devices. You can get some hands-on experience with the OS with the "unlocked" emulator to get the feel for it. Granted it's not fully finished but the if I had to assign a random number to it...the dev devices and emulator are 90% of what we'll see.

What it all comes down to is if you can stomach being shorted a few features at launch, and also what the developers come up with for applications at launch. But I've seen some pretty cool apps and games for wp7.

Maybe it turns out wp7 2010 isn't for you...but will wp7 2012 be for you?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Nah,

I need a physical phone with me. That's when the true testing begins.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
But that's where it gets tricky. One app will do that but won't upload. Another one will upload but won't pull things from the web. Yet another one will do that and then some but will look fugly. So yes, you can sort of do many things, what makes WP7 different for me in the pictures department is that I'll never have to look for any apps.

On the original topic though, hubs would be absolutely great if they could be extended. Mostly they can't, so de facto they remain built in apps with a great presentation layer and varying ability to combine information from different sources at one place.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
There will definitely be more integration opportunities in the future. Right now it seems to just be in the pictures hub, music/video, and games (which I think is just for Xbox Live-enabled games).
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
no all the games will be in the games hub, but i think that the live enabled 1s will have its own section tho
[Windows Phone 7 General] iamcrazyfire:
this application can expand by another vendor ? this application can extent another function?

Hub is allow 3rd party to expand new function (not must similar)...

For example ,3rd party can expand using the photo to search similar photo on WEB in photo hub

For my explanation of Hub: Hub is allows 3rd party to integrated similar or relative function /information into one place
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ to answer your first two questions, yes and yes. Been doing that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] iamcrazyfire:
Most application support support plug-in like IE, Office..but this is for individual application. In fact, Android OS supports native code development,developer can do anything like hub concept.But Hub is a open environment or ecosystem for 3rd party to extent function that popularizing by M$.

Chrome/firefox and IE also support plug-in ,why Chrome/firefox more popular? It is answer.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ because they look better and perform better.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
And I see vetvito still haven't understood what the article or Hubs is about.

It's a design concept, not a plug-in functionality, or a popup-menu of shortcuts.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ I understand it completely. The point I was making is it's not new.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
It's new. No other mobile device have anything like it.

It's just you who can't understand the design concept part of it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
^ tell me exactly what part of it is new? Because I can do it all on my current phone, what part of that don't you understand?
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
From the built in pictures app, open a picture. Open the menu for that and click the button that launches a 3rd party picture editor. Edit the picture in the 3rd party app then save it which returns you to the built-in photo viewer. Can you do anything remotely close to that? Explain what you're doing and the process needed to do it. I don't have a lot of experience with an android handset but I'm fairly certain there's no sort of integration like that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
No, that's the functionality of the Hub. I'm talking about the design concept of the hub itself. WP7 is all about design language, and uniform applications from the Metro design language. Nothing technical here.

And RustryGrom, Android have no such thing. There's no cross application integration, and it returns you to the home screen every time (not even the selected screen the app was started from).
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Its called 3d gallery, androids default photo app. It does exactly that. it lets you do what you want.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
It has the ability to jump to other apps, edit the selected picture, and back in right where you left off?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Of course the hub looks different, but it does nothing new.

you're totally wrong about android. Its funny how wrong.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Yeah, kinda old news. Like the middle of 2009 news.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
If you're so stubborn you can't see the difference between a good and a bad UI, then there's little meaning discussing application and platform design with you.

No, I'm just not a fanatic Android zealot who can't even see the difference on a 5x5 square, and a multi-window interactive application platform.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Ok I see you are confused. You are talking about UI and looks. I'm not!

I'm talking about what it DOES.

what's a zealot?

You obviously don't see my signature with the WM roms.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Can you name an app that features this integration? I'd like to try it out on my sister's Evo next time I get a chance. Or better yet, do you have a video or something of this in action?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
3d gallery, and take a look at Moto Blur
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I'm a bit confused. I thought you were saying that 3d gallery was the embedded pictures app in android? Moto blur is only available on some motorola phones so that isn't a real answer. Also, it's not even a photo editing app but a shell replacement/enhancement.

This YouTube video shows them launching the editing apps from the main screen. But maybe there's another entry point where you can do it like WP7 does? It's just odd that what you're saying is the first and only time I can find of someone claiming this.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
nothing is embedded in Android. Its the stock picture viewer though. Well its stock on ASOP roms and phones.

Moto Blur works on other phones, look through these forums.

HTC uses friend stream.

Gingerbread will address this saturation problem.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
You're touching on a whole nother problem here. Will Gingerbread really fix it? We'll see.

"nothing is embedded in Android." So then there's nothing for them to integrate with? I thought you said that they could?

Check out the 50min mark in this video from MIX and you'll see what I mean. I'm 99% that this sort of capability does not exist on Android like you seem to be claiming. You have to open the app you want to edit the picture with from however you want to, locate the picture inside that app, and edit it from there. Then, lets say you want to upload that edited picture to facebook, you have to open the facebook app, navigate to the picture, and upload it. This sort of common scenario is MUCH more efficient in WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
I can just upload the photo from the gallery. I don't have to switch apps. I posted a screen shot already.

I'm at work on my phone. Will watch the video on my break

----

Also when I say nothing is embedded, I mean you can take everything out that you don't want.

Face book, twitter, myspace, and a ton of other apps are integrated. Plus I don't have to use "Live".
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Nothing is integrated in Android, you're contradicting yourself here.

Android is nothing but a dumb platform with a weak notification API, and widget support for home screens. You don't integrate anything, since there's nothing to integrate with.

The Facebook application isn't integrated with the photo editor.

Surfaces build on Android, like HTC Sense, have integration with Facebook and Twitter, but beyond that, it's nothing significant.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
That screen shot just showed shortcuts. That's pretty meaningless without showing how it works. Does the stock gallery that ships with all devices have an integration point like WP7 does?

----

Integrated into what? I know Android can have Facebook integration in some areas but isn't that part of Sense and other 3rd party addons? Can 3rd parties extend the integrated pictures app to do various things? Another example I've read is an app that lets you select a picture in the stock pictures hub, add the word "FAIL" on it (how you choose to), and then upload it to failblog.com. It's my understanding that in order to do something similar on Android, you'd have to launch the failblog app, locate the picture from within the app (using it's own gallery capabilities) and then edit and send from within the app. Yea, it's not the end of the world, but it's just a bunch more disparate scenario. In WP7, I know that if I want to do something, anything, with a picture, I open the pictures hub, find my picture, and go from there. On iPhone and Android I have to figure out which app I want to use and then locate the picture within that app. If I want to do something else with that picture, I have to exit the app, go to the other app I want and relocate the picture. It just flows better on WP7 and that's the essence of the "hubs".
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
@RustyGrom

Anything? Everything? Well I woudn't say so because in the photo Hub alone

not EVERY community portal/app will be supported, I suppose.

Some people do not use idiotic Facebook but other more productive and sensible ones.

So shouting here by @Windcape and offending others doesn't make sense.

You guys still talk here about UI/visual part of OS.

Sorry it doesn't REALLY propose anything new in terms of SUBSTANTIAL functionality.

Instead of endless bullshitting about those Hubs,

I would love to know how the email will be enhanced over WM.

How Office will have MORE functionality over WM.

How other core apps in WP7 will propose NEW or ENHANCED functionality.

Because if not all this conversation over Hubs or other UI crap is bull****.

Yet none of the reviewers was eager to show anything about it.

None.

So I'm starting to be really bored with this.

In terms of real everyday usage and productivity I don't see anything particularly new.

Besides this advertised Facebook etc.

So I understand when somebody says "hey, but what's so new there really"?

He is right in many ways.

I wait to get it in my hands, the WP7, and than judge what is that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Ok again,

Open the gallery, select your photo, press the share button.

You get a list like above, select where you would like to share the photo.

I selected twitter, update, done

Did all of this on my phone, uploaded, copy and pasted links, and I haven't pressed the back button or home button
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
Since MS is dealing with a platform reset, you're basically going to get less functionality but more elegant design and integration between Microsoft services and newer development frameworks. MS would probably have to delay another year or 2 to get everything in.

I doubt the wp7 platform will be for you at launch. You'll just see what you're losing since you're more functionality driven. wp7 at launch is to get it's claws into the general consumer market with a elegant, simple yet stylish design and logic integration between services.

Maybe wp7 2012 will peak your interests when they have time to add that advanced featureset to their existing applications.

But lots of reviewers have talked about many pros and cons. http://www.winsupersite.com/mobile/wp7_hotornot.asp This one seems like a good mix of pros and cons that goes beyond the multitasking and copy and pasting features. Also the 4 videos posted recently gives a really nice walkthrough of the device.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Quote from the article above:

"The sheer number of missing features in each of the Office Mobile apps, but only on this platform, is staggering."

Significant. I'm happy however that WP7 doesn't have unified inbox for emails. That's good.

You may be right. It's just new thing which requires so much work yet.

May be not for me at launch.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Any third party dev can extend it.

Thanks. I assume that's the stock gallery? And what about editing, saving, then uploading? I notice the button says "share" but is it limited to that? And any app can be added to there if the app wants to, ie those apps weren't all included in by the OEM?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well it won't have a Polish keyboard/autocorrection dictionary support and marketplace won't work for Polish credit cards, so it's not for you at launch anyway.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Looks like that!

Interesting is when....
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Q2 2011 or later I guess.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
International creditcards should work just fine (VISA, MasterCard)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
No they won't. You'll have to enter a valid address during registration. Marketplace doesn't, and won't, let you choose to be a US resident with a Danish billing address. This is rather serious stuff because of legal and tax implications, and also access to Zune content.

What you probably can do is use one of those shady "services" that give access to Zune outside of the US now - you pay them through PayPal, and they use their cards with US addresses for a surcharge. You don't own or have access to your account this way though, and otherwise it just doesn't sound like an attractive idea.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
According to Microsoft Denmark, I'll be able to buy applications on the international market, from October, using a international creditcard. (Almost everybody in Denmark have a combined debit/VISA card, cash is for 3rd world countries)

Legal, no, tax, no, and Zune access is separated from the international marketplace.

It might be a issue in mother Russia, but most western countries don't have legal or tax issues in regards to buying software on the internet.

That's Zune. Zune have nothing to do with the international application market.

I told you this before.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
What are you talking about? There are no issues with buying software on the internet anywhere. There are issues with selling it. When you have operations in a country and sell stuff to its residents but don't pay taxes (VAT at least), what you're doing in essence is writing down local costs without exposing local revenues. That is frowned upon everywhere and while not illegal per se, after some volume of operations will lead to unpleasant consequences. As a matter of fact, that's very similar to offshore stuff people get chased for everywhere these days. Companies like Microsoft are very cautious about doing such things because governments are their big clients. So what they do is they require that you enter a billing address, and you choose your country from a dropdown list. You can try to fake it of course, but then your bank will most probably decline authorization (not to mention that it's fairly easy to check where the card is from by its number).

And your Microsoft Denmark guy is wrong, he just doesn't know what he's talking about when he talks about "international credit cards" (or you misunderstood him). International cards (VISA/MC) of course are accepted everywhere in the world, this is not the problem. The problem is with your registering that card in the Marketplace. And the ability to add a card from a certain country is exactly what's called "supporting a market". From there on you aren't limited to your language-only apps anyway, you can buy from anywhere.

So unless there's an official statement about adding Denmark to the list of markets, this is just an empty rumor.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
It doesn't matter. The scheme works for any service - iTunes, Appstore, Windows Marketplace, anything. They just open an account for you from an approved location.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
I wouldn't call it a rumor when a Microsoft employee say that the phone is launched in Denmark, and will be able to buy applications, from Denmark, in October. (Also I posted the source of my information in another thread, go look it up, and learn to read Danish while you're at it.)

But it seems there will be no way to convince you for the next 2 months, so I guess I should just stop trying. You don't seem to understand the international marketplace will be OPEN TO EVERYBODY, JUST NOT LOCALIZED from October.

"International Marketplace" implies that you're personal responsible for tax and VAT issues. Just like you ALWAYS ARE when buying software or services online. If you look at the listed countries for the launch, with localized marketplace, it's all those with strict tax and VAT rules in regards to buying internet software.

Zune Pass will be limited to a number of countries at launch. But applications will not. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
There's nothing to understand in what you're saying, you just want me to believe something that someone you know who happens to work at Microsoft told you unofficially, while this goes against everything Microsoft is saying officially and while it is against all appstore/marketplace history and practices. Also, you obviously don't know much about international trade, taxes and business in general (I'm not saying this to insult you in any way), and I do.

In any case, I'll be more than happy for you if it works your way, so no point arguing about it. :beer: