yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G General] k2snowboards88:
I think that's pretty short sighted of them. The average consumer isn't going to see their phones and say, "that looks like it's only going 30fps. That's far lower than it should be." They will however see this phone and then later see an iphone/samsung/motorolla, and say, "that htc phone just looks cheap and crappy compared to this." That will cost them in the long run.
[EVO 4G General] Jykinturah:
Just to say that I got the same response from this Sara.

I won't be returning the Evo but this 30FPS issue is like that annoying itch that you can't scratch; it is driving me insane.

I think HTC just sends this reply to anyone that says 30FPS in their message/question.
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
:x

Did you know that you can sued for posting that?
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
It's not an automated reply. HTC took some time to form a "corporate response". :-( Like many others though...I'm not buying the story.
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
Welcome to the thread Sara!
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
Seriously..get sued..

HTC can sue you for posting that, as you're supposed to ask permission first from the agent. She can sue you too, as that's a letter that she wrote, and therefore is her own written content protected by HTC. Dumb, man. Dumb. Better hope she doesn't see that.

And HELLO. The iPhone works at the same rate!! Why should HTC get f**ked with, and Steve Jobs get more money?
[EVO 4G General] k2snowboards88:
Not true...
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
Explain what you mean by this plz, the iphone is not locked at 30fps
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
...

With all due respect, it's a technical support person's job to tell the customer what the company wants him/her to. If they don't, poof! no job! no money! if you want better answers, call their headquarters.
[EVO 4G General] k2snowboards88:
No one is blaming the tech support woman. We are blaming htc for the response they made for her to say.
[EVO 4G General] McHale:
um... nope. Emails are not considered confidential even if there is a confidentiality statement declaring so IN the email. And considering this same responses was sent to more than one person they certainly aren't trying to hide anything.
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
iphone

apple website. iphone 4g specs.

I believe it says 30fps, or do my eyes deceive me?
[EVO 4G General] Mecha2142:
I'm fairly sure that is referring to the iPhone's video recording capability.
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
Thats only video playback and recording fps
[EVO 4G General] k2snowboards88:
No, but your reading comprehension skills are pretty poor. 30fps is the limit for HD video capture. Not graphics.
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
:)

* Video formats supported: H.264 video up to 720p, 30 frames per second, Main Profile level 3.1 with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats; MPEG-4 video, up to 2.5 Mbps, 640 by 480 pixels, 30 frames per second, Simple Profile with AAC-LC audio up to 160 Kbps per channel, 48kHz, stereo audio in .m4v, .mp4, and .mov file formats; Motion JPEG (M-JPEG) up to 35 Mbps, 1280 by 720 pixels, 30 frames per second, audio in ulaw, PCM stereo audio in .avi file format

* Support for 1024 by 768 pixels with Dock Connector to VGA Adapter; 576p and 480p with Apple Component AV Cable; 576i and 480i with Apple Composite AV Cable (cables sold separately)

This is under the TV & Video

The recording information is listed under Camera, Photos, and Video. And it also is 30FPS.
[EVO 4G General] k2snowboards88:
poor reading comprehension. This thread is about the phones graphics performance being limited to 30fps. Not video capture or playback.
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
..

It clearly says that it only support 30FPS.

Why would they post that information twice in two different spots?

If you have any different information, I'll bow in. But that site clearly says 30fps for everything. TV has nothing to do with video recorded, btw
[EVO 4G General] k2snowboards88:
This forum needs an ignore button.
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
You apparently have never played games on any iDevice
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
..

I am repeating what is on the apple website about the phone's specs. How is that wrong?

If I'm wrong, show me. I am just telling you what is there. I'm a reasonable person. I'd admit it if I was wrong, so prove to me that I am wrong.
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
We have already told you that is for VIDEO PLAYBACK AND RECORD!!!!!
[EVO 4G General] bobdude5:
but its htc that has the most ridiculous of issues that they could have easily prevented or fixed. Like for the nexus one, they decided to put a 3 year old touch screen with lack of true multitouch capablities into a "superphone"..and now this FPS issue (which doesnt bother me too much because i dont notice it in apps and this touch screen lag which i do notice and does irritate the hell out of me. The main function of a touchscreen is to respond to touch and it cant even do that properly.

the community of brilliant devs like you are the only reason i get htc phones..actually thats just part of the reason..i got the evo because i thought now that it has the maxtouch sensors it would be the perfect android phone with a great touch screen..i really hope they fix it
[EVO 4G General] Shadow591:
Re: HTC Support Official Response fo 30fps (As designed!)

So i dont get it if i got 30 fps on crysis or any other game that was good and 60 was exclent movies play at 24 fps there is some thing else like refresh rate like 30 hz not fps.

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Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App because imma plaha
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
Yup

I understand it says that too!

What I am saying, is there is nothing else anywhere that says the iPhone is not 30FPS. Why would it limit video and TV playback to 30fps if it could run higher?

And where is the technical information that says differently?
[EVO 4G General] Minjin:
Sue him for what? You can sue anyone for anything. I can sue you for being a moron and making me feel dumber for having read your post. Doesn't mean it would necessarily stand up in a court of law.
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
Do you know what cinematic movies FPS is?

Do you know what television show FPS is?

Neither is above 30 as a hint
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
HAHAHAHAH, I had to LOL at that. You my friend made my night :D:p
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
..

It clearly says that the e-mail is confidental, regardless.

Oh seriously people, when are you going to learn? If you don't like the phone, don't buy it? Why complain? It's not the phone for you, obviously.

Other people may see the phone and completely love the way it works. Because you want to play something that the phone doesn't support is your problem. Either root your phone, or don't buy it.
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
1. Rooting doesn't fix the 30fps limit

2. We bought the phones before we knew it was gimped
[EVO 4G General] Mecha2142:
A whole lot less of us would have bought this device if this 30fps cap were outlined in writing. Obviously, HTC shied away from revealing this information because of that, preferring to screw us over while we wait for some sort of update to rectify this 'mistake'.

This is one of the few smartphones that have had an fps cap placed on them. It's practically unheard of in most companies like Motorola, Apple, and Samsung.
[EVO 4G General] Minjin:
Where does it say this?
[EVO 4G General] techgrl87:
..

Insult my intelligence all you want, sweethearts. I care so very much. I'm not saying anything that shouldn't be said.

When you don't like something, you return it, or throw it away. Should have tried the phone out before buying it, which is an option!
[EVO 4G General] gerald410:
progressive 23.96

interlace 29

for ntsc I believe:)
[EVO 4G General] netarchy:
23.976 (film-looking frame rate compatible with NTSC clock speed standards)

24 (international film and ATSC high definition material)

25 (PAL, SECAM film, standard definition, and high definition material)

29.97 (NTSC standard definition material)

50 (PAL & SECAM high definition material))

59.94 (ATSC high definition material)

60 (ATSC high definition material)

Gotta love wikipedia

Referencing the television as a basis for not being concerned as a consumer to this issue is a flawed comparison at any rate for a number of reasons:

1. The framerate in a television show is steady, while in a program utilizing video functionality there may be fluctuations

2. sub-30fps film standards represent something of a paradox in that people oddly seem to prefer a film recorded at 24fps over programming recorded at 30+ fps. (You can test this yourself, just by watching the occasional show that is recorded at a faster framerate. While technically superior and obviously smoother, for some reason we seem to prefer the slightly slower framerate)

3. In a program, fluctuations causing framerate to drop under 30fps tend to result in the appearance of choppiness (most notably in games but this is hardly limited to this area).

The effect is often much more pronounced in games, particularly multi-player games. While one might achieve 30fps in a small or largely empty area, once there is much activity, fluctuations can easily drop fps to unacceptable levels. The higher the average fps, the more likely these fluctuations are to go unnoticed or have minimal effect on the user experience.

When a similar effect is experienced in the general UI, it leaves a bad impression on the user. How many people are going to be left with the impression that the Evo is not a well performing phone when they can look at their buddies G1 and see a better UI experience?
[EVO 4G General] Pops_G:
Why is it you do not think we have a better option? Get HTC to fix it. Just because you only see 2 options, doesn't mean those are the only ones.

Also I will attempt to explain the difference between that iPhone stat you are bringing up and the issue we are discussing.

iPhone 30FPS video play back. The key part of that is video, it doesn't only mean a rapid series of images. Its referring specifically to video files like movies from DVDs or youtube. Those types of videos are compressed so they do not take up tons of space. The iPhone is stating that it is capable of DECOMPRESSING those files at 30fps. Decompression can be taxing on hardware.

The issue at hand, the EVO 30fps cap. This has nothing to do with decompression. This has to do with elements like animations in the UI and games that run without compression. Without compression there is no need to decompress so it can be done a LOT faster. Way faster than 30fps. Problem is, HTC saw it fit to prevent that. They are some how crippling the phone in order to save battery. We have no idea how much battery, it could be as little as 2%. We may never know. But what we do know is this phone runs visibly slower than equally spec'd phones. This can be proven and has been.
[EVO 4G General] redct:
It can't hurt to go all the way, can it? :3

As I think this is in their domain, I've emailed the Consumerist. We'll see how that turns out.

Also, I've procured the email address of HTC's CEO Peter Chou. Does anyone want to help me write a letter? We need to make this sound well thought out and professional, so we don't come off as random whiners that got a hold of his email address.

Things that we want to hit on (?):

Other HTC phones and competing (ahem, iPhone) phones do not have the same cap.

People are unhappy and are returning HTC devices to stores.

Generating bad press among the high-end tech savvy phone crowd—one of HTC's core audiences.

Makes the phone seem bad compared to competition. User experience is everything.

Anyone have anything else to add? I'm going to send the mail out tomorrow noonish.
[EVO 4G General] flexgrip:
Re: HTC Support Official Response fo 30fps (As designed!)

Visible sluggishness in the UI can be blamed more on java than the fps cap. I don't like the cap but don't see it being much of a deal breaker for froyo + jit. It simply flies.

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Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
1. Off-topic.

2. Legally and technically wrong. If you want to take this offline I would be happy to educate you.

Just a quick recap: HTC can not sue me for a reply to my query which is located in my mailbox (unless I agreed to a NDA or something). If I were to lie and/or quote something inaccurate, then she would have a case.

The IPhone GS Starting up the test on both devices shows that the iPhone 3GS does 60fps. To quote one review "Starting up the test on both devices shows that the iPhone 3GS runs at 60 frames per second (fps).. http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-features/48448-iphone-3gs-outperforms-nexus-one-in-fps-drag-race

You can also look at benchmarks with corresponding video evidence at many websites include here: http://www.ipodtouchfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286055

Lets move on.
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
It doesn't. I have the e-mail it doesn't say that anywhere, and furthermore just putting "confidential" on an e-mail doesn't indicate acceptance by both parties.

If there is a mod here, please feel free to delete these non-relevant posts. ;-)
[EVO 4G General] vinscuzzy:
To everyone saying that the difference between 30 and 60fps is not a big deal, or not noticeable by the human eye, or bla bla bla, try this... go to a Sprint store and install fps2d on a moment(or hero), and your EVO, and compare the two. Not the numbers, the actual difference in the way the test looks. It's truly night and day. Next, install launcherpro on both devices and look at how much smoother the transition from screen to screen is on the moment. Trust me, it's VERY noticeable by the human eye.
[EVO 4G General] :
I will punch HTC in the face if they don't fix this.
[EVO 4G General] MrX8503:
I'm sick and tired of people saying 30fps is fast enough. 30fps is for film, its NOT the same thing as gaming or for general animation functions of the phone.

Stop bending over and make some noise about this issue or HTC will continue to do what they want. I seriously want to strangle HTC right now. So many phone manufacturers tout and gloat about their phone, comparing it to the iPhone.

Well then MAKE A BETTER PHONE!!! Geezus!
[EVO 4G General] roybotnik:
I'm returning my phone. HTC can go to hell. I expected that android would be a lot less polished than the iPhone I came from, but the overall experience with this phone has been absolutely horrible.
[EVO 4G General] Freelancerx:
haterz gonna hate

haha please all you guys who apparently want a gaming device and not a phone just go return it and get an iphone, or a droid x... i mean i dont see what the problem is... sprint has that 30 day return thing it hasnt been 30 days, just put your money where your mouth is and return it. you will get all your money back and you will have the knowledge that you gave up a trully awesome phone because it wasnt "smooth" enough for you. ive had some die hard apple people mess around with my phone and they thought the screen was fine, but like i said haterz gonna hate.

so either return your phone.... replace it from sprint (someone had posted that after they got it replaced the screen worked fine, maybe the new batch has corrected this problem) or just enjoy the device for what it is a smart phone....and maybe it will get fixed, maybe not, the sooner you come to that realization the sooner you can stop worrying about it....
[EVO 4G General] Mecha2142:
You can bend over and take HTC's crap as much as you want. We won't. We aren't 'haterz'. We're consumers who paid hundreds of dollars for a device that was expected to come with certain features, and one of those features was NOT a 30fps cap.

Some of us paid for a gaming device, and the Android market offers plenty of games for those of us who did. We shouldn't have to return this phone because of HTC's laziness. The device not being as smooth as two year old devices is not a false issue; it's significant and should not even be a part of such an expensive phone. Do you honestly think exchanging the Evo is going to fix anything? This is a software cap placed on every device and can only be fixed by a software update. We're 'hating' about this mess because that's the ONLY way it will ever get fixed. If we 'stop worrying about it', nothing will change. HTC will succeed in ripping us off because we think 30 frames per second is 'just fine'.
[EVO 4G General] redct:
Right, so, in that case, want to help me with the letter? :P
[EVO 4G General] laydros:
This doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.

1) isn't 30fps pretty much all the human eye/brain can detect? Why is this a big downside. Movies run at 24fps. if it is true they are probably doing it to preserve battery life

2) I know the Nexus One actually runs a slightly different CPU from the Incredible and EVO, so I think it might be different, but my CS minor and personal geekery doesn't lead me to believe this would be something you would implement at a hardware level. Driver level yes, OS/Application level certainly, but hardware level seems like a bad idea.

3) AFAIK, LCDs are different from CRT in that the frame isn't redrawn over and over, instead the pixels change as needed. The equivalent to FPS is the refresh rate, and this was a big issue that caused ghosting in early LCD displays. I have no clue what these little things are capable of, but FPS would be tied to that refresh rate.
[EVO 4G General] Grims:
No, the human eye/brain can easily see 60. Movies get away with it by using blurring to trick the mind into thinking it's running faster. Try playing any FPS game at only 30FPS...yuck
[EVO 4G General] strung:
indeed the human eye can see around 90 to 100 fps ... (above that not so much)
[EVO 4G General] neodorian:
Yeah, the movie thing is more about conditioning than anything else. Film was traditionally 24fps due to limitations and standards so we have become accustomed to low framerates in film. If you want an example of this, watch a film on a TV that upconverts to 60fps or more. People think it looks "fake" or "cheap" because we have been conditioned to associate high frame rates with camcorders, soap operas, old British TV, etc. Essentially we expect it to look a certain way and anything else is jarring.

You can most definitely see the difference. When I export an animation or a video at 30fps I can definitely tell the difference between that and exporting at 60fps.
[EVO 4G General] Grims:
That said, aren't all 1080p bluray movies 60fps?
[EVO 4G General] gman8966:
EXACT same thing I did.
[EVO 4G General] EliWay:
There's a huge difference this time around, though. They are actually using the right drivers, and not simply running the OS in "safe mode" like they did with the Tilt. But they seem to have capped all graphics to 30fps, possibly in an effort to save battery life.

Problem is, this makes the system considerably slower, especially for games and emulators. Heck, even the 2-year old G1 has been scoring better on graphics benchmarks. This is unacceptable. And it doesn't even save battery life.
[EVO 4G General] strung:
The majority are 1080p24. Even The Office, which is shown at 60fps on TV, is 24fps on blu-ray. :rolleyes:
[EVO 4G General] roybotnik:
I came from an iPhone 3G to the EVO the UI animations seem slow to me. Apps open and work faster, but the little stuff like transitions between home screens doesn't look nearly as smooth... I guess this would explain why. Is it smooth on other devices like the nexus one?
[EVO 4G General] npace:
Okay. It's capped at 30, let's move on.

Let's focus on how we can "uncap" it?

Does anyone know what the droid rom devs did with the 2.1 cap?
[EVO 4G General] Young_e:
i downloaded fps2d from the marketplace and had my friend with a hero do the same thing. He averaged 54fps and i averaged 30fps. He doesn't have 2.1 installed though. I wonder if his numbers will drop once he does the update. If so i bet it has alot todo with 2.1 and htc might of even capped it even lower. Either way is unacceptable. If we can't get this figured out soon. The Evo will definitely be going back to radio shack
[EVO 4G General] Fixter:
Why would it go back? You were happy with it last night. WTF. Why are people making such a big deal out of this?! This is a software based problem. With some dedication it can be fixed. Geez. Now I know why iPhone users call us HTCrybabies.
[EVO 4G General] Young_e:
lol how do you know how i felt last night. I paid full price for the evo. Thats almost $500. There is no way that the hero should be out performing my device that was just released a few weeks ago, and before i read this article i noticed hiccups that i was begining to have concern about. I just want my moneys worth is that too much to ask. And by the way i would never by an iphone, but the iphone 4 does look nice but still is crippled by iOS 4
[EVO 4G General] swaze:
Is it really outperforming the EVO? Really?? lol
[EVO 4G General] Young_e:
well not out performing but the frames per second is lower. So certain things move faster on the hero at this point when it comes to graphic intense stuff
[EVO 4G General] Jus10o:
Hahah ill trade you my OC hero for your Evo. Ill even throw in $100

If you really think it can out perform.

This is very funny watching the forums of a brand new phone. There is just sooooo many people *****ing. Give it a couple months and answers to just about everything will be answered. Like if fps can be fix, if the phone can be OC, etc..
[EVO 4G General] :
Yeah it's really lame Droid averaged 57fps, htc evo 29
[EVO 4G General] Young_e:
i'm not stupid dude. I know the Evo is better then the hero. You can keep your OC hero and your $100
[EVO 4G General] Young_e:
exactly thats my only point. The Evo should at least be able to match that 57fps if not beat it. I'm sure someone will find a fix and i will be a happy camper.
[EVO 4G General] alan7467:
I just tried fps2d on my Hero running Fresh 2.1.1 (a 2.1 ROM), and scored 54fps average. Bummer :( Hope there's a fix for the EVO.
[EVO 4G General] Mecha2142:
I'm up for it.
[EVO 4G General] MrX8503:
QFT!

The problem is that people need to stop accepting "issues". If you accept them, you'll never get the device you want that you paid hundreds for and a few thousand for a contract.
[EVO 4G General] halorin:
No amount of spin or rationalization justifies a phone with the specifications it has being outperformed by phones 1 or more years old because of a limitation such as this. It's not about hating, or complaining.

If I ever make my own business, I really hope there are a lot of customers like you with low expectations for what you get for your money. It'd make my life a lot easier.
[EVO 4G General] thorpe24:
Re: HTC Support Official Response fo 30fps (As designed!)

I'm also up for helping though I'm running 2.2 and it doesn't seem too bad
[EVO 4G General] redct:
Right, so.

"We feel that this arbitrary cap hurts the EVO and lessens its standing as one of HTC's flagship devices, especially considering the fact that many other HTC Android devices with similar hardware do not have this cap. In addition, the cap makes the EVO less competitive compared to other devices such as the iPhone. User experience is everything and HTC has a lot going for it with Sense-but the cap creates noticeable lag in both applications and games, a main selling point of the phone."

"Unfortunately, this has led to some bad press, due to some consumers feeling like their phone isn't living up to its advertised potential. This bad press has led to some grumbling in the phone developer and phone enthusiast community, one of HTC's consumer bases."

"As HTC's stated position has been that this artificial cap is 'by design', we ask that HTC expedite the release of the EVO's kernel source. If HTC does not want to fix this flaw in its product, we at least want the tools so that the developer community can fix it themselves." (Warranty notwithstanding. :D)

Can you guys think of anything else?