yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus One General] earlyberd:
People need to remember that Apple isn't trying to play catch-up with their products. They stand by the idea that they're the innovators, and that everyone else should be trying to catch up to them. We know that a 800:1 contrast ratio is terrible compared to the 100,000:1 offered by OLED, but that doesn't stop Jobs from hailing his retina display as the best thing since automatic flush toilets.

This philosophy allows them to set whatever development and release schedule that works best for them, because even if the finished product leaves a lot to be desired, there's always at least one striking new feature that causes millions of people lap it up anyway.

Google on the other hand has trailed behind the iOS feature set for quite some time, and has only recently caught up and caused a lot of people to start switching. But Google knows that simply catching up doesn't win the battle, so now they have to strive to surpass the iPhone, and every announcement of a new feature from Apple's camp means a new feature that Google has to implement or make a better version, on top of what's already on their plate.
[Nexus One General] chowlala:
Actually, Google would've never released Froyo anytime before the WWDC.

Why?

Because they want to see what Apple really has up their sleeves before launching a counter assault via newer additions.

Otherwise... why promote stuff from Gingerbread at the I/O? The stuff was fully functional on the Froyo platform.

So... right now, Google is preparing itself to send the update to us. It's not just about marketing, it's also about timing. Not just dumping the update to us so we'll be pleased and happy. It's about breaking the core of Apple by showing the world that the OS they provide is more than just on par.

From here on, it HAS TO BE BETTER!
[Nexus One General] attn1:
It's called project management and there are companies much larger than 50,000 employees (which is not near the high end of the scale as really large companies go) that use it to bring complex projects in on time pretty regularly. No, they don't publicize every project detail, particularly when the project hasn't matured. If your target is moving, then the project isn't defined properly and using open source software is no excuse to toss control out of the window. Sure some progress milestones are missed, but with budgets on a clock and department heads responsible for every dollar spent, a project had best end on time, on spec and with quality or there is an awful lot of embarrassing explaining to do. It's not always fun and it's work, but that's the way mature big boys do it. Google's PM task is no more complex than Apple's, they just have far less experience.

Y'all can make excuses for Google's piss poor record for product delivery all you want, but I am not buying it. They have a ton of room for improvement.
[Nexus One General] chowlala:
So why don't you go apply to work in Google and show em how's it done then? =)
[Nexus One General] attn1:
Because no one that ever gets a job like the one that can make those things happen ever applies for it. Besides, if I made all that money I'd really be unbearable.
[Nexus One General] flarbear:
If your driving goal is a specific release date then you manage your project to meet it. If your driving goal is delivering a specific set of features, then you manage your project to ensure that they are delivered with adequate quality and the release date, though still somewhat important, is secondary.

Right now Android is not tied to a specific release schedule, but they are concerned with getting specific features out so they are more feature driven.

If they were schedule driven then your point would be valid and they would be doing a really bad job of it, but it isn't. They have a few driving features in FroYo that they feel they need to get out to remain competitive and those features are ready when they are ready. They will not hold those features for the next major release in order to get a more predictable date for this release because that would push them back by months instead of days/weeks and they don't feel they can afford that strategically. A variability of a few weeks is minor compared to months of delay for a critical feature. And, really, the only downside to a few days or weeks of variability on the release is people getting worked up. Should they try to avoid the angst at the expense of getting the features out simply for a couple of weeks less variability on the release date?

They've already said that the current release scheduling isn't their final goal. When things settle down (sometime in the next year or so) they will shift to a more regular release schedule. Until then they are feature driven.

Even Apple has some projects that are schedule driven and others that are feature driven. You never hear about the next major OS update until it is ready to go out. You don't hear about the next version of iLife until it is baked and ready to go. You do know that the iPhone hardware will be updated pretty much annually and the iOS with it and so that particular product is schedule driven.

A feature driven product plan can be announced "when it is ready" only if you are doing the work in a closed system. If you are working in an open system like Android and you are feature driven, then no, I'm sorry, the news of the impending release will come out when the source code starts hitting the open repositories whether you want it to or not and then you have to smile and tell people "Yes, it's there, you can see it, we might as well tell you what is in it, and no, we don't have a final release date yet because it is still in its final baking stages, but the features are done and we are just squashing all of the last bugs that are being uncovered in testing so the release is soon".
[Nexus One General] attn1:
I didn't say Google needs to stick to an arbitrary release schedule. I said they need better release management and that when it announces a pending release, it should have it's act together enough to be able to give a firm date. They should not commit to a public release date when they start a project, or share every hardship at every milestone. But when it announces a product release, it should have it's act together and a plan to make sure it comes to fruition, and not announce it's release until they have a clue. Each project schedule should be determined by the complexity of the project, available resources and workload. Proper project management does not start with a completion date, but it does not come on release day, either. More effective project management will get them where they should be.

At Google I/O, Google said the Android 2.2 would be released to Nexus One owners within a few weeks. No one forced them to do something so unbelievably stupid, and not knowing when they would be ready is why they gave a very fuzzy time frame that evidently they could not even commit to. If testing was not complete, they had no business announcing any release whatsoever. The cart was before the horse. That was a few weeks ago now, and so far, they are on track to fail once again.

But even if they push OTA tonight, or even had two weeks ago, they've STILL screwed up. They'd barely released the SDK, they did not announce any beta plan, nor any time frame for people who sell applications to Android users to get up to speed. Something called Android 2.2 leaks with no explanation or clarification, and no one had a remote idea what was going on. Joe Blow (Idaho) in a Google forum with a Google Employee tag on his account finally blurbs that it is not the final release version, with still no explanation of what it was. Wow. just like lightning from heaven.

Really, all they have in their defense is a series of shoddy excuses (like - gee - we can't - we're open source) why they continue to fail at acting responsibly. They are still a relatively young company and still very new at having to play nice with others. They'll probably get better as time progresses. Edit: Release management involves effective communication, which is knowing what to say and when, and not allowing every random thought rattling around in your skull to drain out your pie hole.
[Nexus One General] flarbear:
Well, the fact that they are open source isn't a trivial excuse - it is an entirely different way of doing business, and it is a relatively new paradigm at that. When you are working with open source you do lose some control over the visibility of your work and that is a fact. You may discount that fact in this discussion, but it is a distinction that Apple doesn't have to deal with.

I guess I'll agree that they didn't need to say anything at I/O about scheduling, but it's not like they gave a firm date and now they've missed it. Some of their engineers gave a vague time frame, but there was no official word or press release that said anything about a time frame. The word was informal.

Personally, I'd much rather hear about what is coming down the pike and what is going on in development and I can easily deal with the uncertainty of someone saying "it will be out in a few/couple weeks" and have that drag on. Am I a little anxious, yes. Do I feel the need to rant about the injustice of it and start painting them as an irresponsible company - no. Actually, quite the opposite - I value the fact that they announced all of this at I/O and that they felt comfortable with us to informally give us a wink and say "soon".

That more informal "work being done in the open" atmosphere is one of the plusses of open source work. I suppose open source work could be done behind closed doors and source code only released after the fact, but that isn't very nice to your partners and dependents when they have to react after the fact to what you've done. Publishing the "not quite finished" source before you bake it lets the community prepare for the release.

On the other hand, and unfortunately, a lot of people feel betrayed by such familiarity and can't simply take it with a grain of salt. I wish they could because the alternative is for Google to be tight lipped and for everyone to twiddle their thumbs and wonder. At least we have a few weeks to discuss the coming features amongst ourselves. My biggest fear is that the people arguing that they shouldn't have announced anything will get their wish and we'll have lost some valuable early insight opportunities into Android futures.
[Nexus One General] PacoL250:
The point you made about doing business with a partially open-source product was key, but this little tidbit is pretty much what I have been trying to say (but gave up several pages ago).

Google NEVER gave any time frame and they necessarily don't have to for a multitude of reasons. Android being open source is one of the big ones.
[Nexus One General] big_adventure:
Apple ANNOUNCED Iphone OS 4 way back in March, with no firm date - hell, nothing more precise than "coming soon". They announced the firm release date for the iPhone 4 (NOT iOS 4) on June 7th, and, as far as I know, have STILL not announced the firm general release date for iOS 4 on old hardware (3G, 3GS, Touch - they said "Summer") OR on the iPad ("Fall").

Google announced FroYo on May 20 as "Coming Soon". If Google follows Apple's path, they should be announcing the firm date when you can pay for new hardware with that system sometime in August, followed MAYBE by a release onto existing hardware in September.

In any case, if you think way, way back to the beginning of the year, Google showed off a little handset called the Nexus One, and said it would be available on January 5th - and it was.

Learn to read, add and pay attention before flaming anyone, 'kay?
[Nexus One General] DagsJT:
June 21st

http://www.gadgetvenue.com/apple-ios-4-release-date-june-21-06075017/
[Nexus One General] attn1:
Well, if every time someone made a new contribution to source it meant a change to the project, you'd never get anywhere. Anyone using public source, not just Google, can use any branch for their project. Google does have control of the source going into it's project the same way anyone else does, open source or not.

Both Google and Apple talk about things they are working on; Google earlier and more so. That's okay - it keeps them honest and focused on the project. The problem isn't that people know what's in the source pipeline or what Google is looking at for the future or what they are working on; the problem is that Google makes hedgy, inaccurate statements about when they are doing a specific product release before they have a real plan and before they are ready. That's bad for Google and it's business partners.

The idea that progress must stop if they wait until they are ready before they announce a release date is nonsense, because while they are coordinating one release, work can continue on development of future projects. Nothing says progress has to stop. They day development is complete and tested on a code project is not product release day.

The idea that Google does everything in the open is also nonsense. If they did, we'd know something concrete about this product release, if not a date, or what's going on and what the process is. We don't and really, that is okay.

Fact: Google demonstrated something called Android 2.2 and Google said it would be available OTA to Nexus One owners "within a few weeks".

Fact: A few weeks have now elapsed, and there is no OTA release, so obviously there will be no release within a few weeks, since it is now impossible to do a release "within" a few weeks of Google I/O, so even the hedgiest product release announcement they could make, they've failed to deliver on time.

Fact: No one forced them to announce either a fuzzy or firm release, even if people have been trying.

Better to have said, yup, here is what we are working on, we feel we're getting very close but we're not going to say when because we have work to do yet. Then later announce a firm release date when they can that makes sense for everyone.

If they manage their projects better and stay on point, they'll be able to make deadlines better. If they manage their releases better, they will stop chewing on their feet all the time.
[Nexus One General] attn1:
That's right. Steve B'Jobs himself said it at WWDC.

Anyone want to bet that it actually happens? I think it does.
[Nexus One General] attn1:
Yes they absolutely did, and though you're right that they don't have to announce a release - they did. Using open source is absolutely no reason to abandon proper project and release management.

They said it would be released to people who own Nexus Ones "within a few weeks". I was watching live on Youtube when it was said, and it has since been parroted all over the press, but more about the googleio twitter recap "over the next few weeks" Since that time has elapsed, they have failed.
[Nexus One General] attn1:
So what? That's not a product release announcement. Far from it. And by the way, the release date for iOS 4 is june 21st, which is lost in the shuffle because of all the fuss over the stupid iPhone.

Google also announced that FroYo would be coming to the Nexus One "within a few weeks". That's very different than a generic announcement for FroYo deployment in general, which Google has no control over.

Really? You think that they were able to announce a product as it's sitting in the warehouse waiting to be shipped is some kind of a trump card? You don't want to go there with the Nexus One.

Where is the Nexus One for Verizon?

Where is the Nexus One for Sprint?

Where the did the completely unannounced Nexus One for AT&T come from?

What happened to their revolutionary sales model and why won't Google be selling it anymore?

There's just one failure after another.

You should follow you own advice.
[Nexus One General] RogerPodacter:
a "few" weeks is 3 or more weeks. a "couple" is 2, obviously, and a "few" is 3 or more. google I/O was may 19, its now june 11, we are just now hitting 3 weeks. you need to calm down, they arent even late yet.
[Nexus One General] :
You're still going attn1?

lol
[Nexus One General] attn1:
yep. it's fun.

I'm fine, really. Thanks for caring.

The two terms used were "next few weeks" and "within a few weeks". Since a few weeks have elapsed and it hasn't begun, they're late. Even so, it's minor point. If they'd released a week ago, it's still a botch job.
[Nexus One General] flarbear:
I don't think I said this anywhere. Did I?

I meant their source code is public. In fact they actually do a lot of the work in their own hidden sub-trees and then batch commit it to the public repositories some time before the final release. They started doing this for FroYo right around the I/O conference timeframe if I heard correctly. They do commit ahead of time so that their dependents can react ahead of time. I'm sure companies like HTC and Motorola probably see it before then through more direct agreements, but the open side of the whole equation - the "Android can be downloaded and compiled free" side would have to wait for it to be in the open repositories.

True, and that isn't a commitment to a specific date.

Fact: It's been 3 weeks which is the smallest number I've ever seen anyone attribute to the "lower bound" of few. I suppose that you could argue that "a few weeks have elapsed" is technically true, but the range of "a few" means that we are not yet outside the bounds of "within a few weeks" so they haven't yet gone past this claim.

There was one claim that an engineer said "a couple of weeks", but I don't have the reference on hand. That claim would have expired by now, but it was an informal statement anyway.

If you read Google's own official announcement (http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/20100520_io-android.html) they are saying that FroYo would go to OEMs and the open source repositories within a few weeks and nothing about an OTA. We've already seen it hit the repositories and we have no idea if it is hitting the OEMs other than we've seen a preview N1 build leaked. Sounds to me like they are on track for meeting their official statement of availability and then some.

No, but nobody forced Apple to say that the new iPhone OS would be available "coming soon" back in April - and yet they did.

I disagree. I like the fact that they said "in a few weeks" and I don't care if they miss it by a bit. How would this be better? Would it be better because then you wouldn't be anxious for it to arrive? How important is that in the long run? If they had said what you said people would have still been worked up, not only over when they would be getting it, but when they would hear a more concrete release date. There may have actually been more anxiety in that world.
[Nexus One General] flarbear:
Do you believe that "few" means "3, no more and no less"?

I've seen people define it as "more than 2, but less than <insert numbers ranging from 7 to 10>", but I've never seen anyone say that something was late after 3 weeks when it was promised in a "few" weeks. One could describe the number of weeks that have passed as "a few", but even if they release it in 2 more weeks that is viably within the bounds of "a few weeks" from May 20th.

Also, their official statement says they are releasing to OEMs and Open Source in a few weeks. We've seen it hit the open repositories, so, officially, they have met their claims by a wide margin. The official claim never gave a date for the OTA - some engineer rattled something off during the conference, but you need to take that with a double grain of salt - one grain for it being a vague assessment and another grain being that it wasn't their official press release:

http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/20100520_io-android.html
[Nexus One General] attn1:
No, that wasn't you.

If you are doing something within a constraint of a few, then it must be within three, as once you have reached three you are no longer within any definition of a few. Still a minor point, because it's not really about when they release, it's how.

The third week elapsed yesterday, today is the beginning of the fourth week.

Technically, they are late.

Statements like that are a large part of Google's problem. Engineers need to be muzzled until they learn to control their yaps. They should have strict clear direction about never, ever, discussing anything pertaining to release schedules. Public speaking is not their job. I've worked at companies that have fired people for less than that.

Again, that has a lot less to do with the Nexus One and more to do with an SDK and branch release. I am not sure, but I think that's what you are saying.

That's fine for other OEMs, but that applies to FroYo and not so much the Nexus One. They have another product out there that isn't Froyo - but it will be running FroYo. A firm date for an OTA release developers could count on would be pretty handy so that they can test and plan their software so that it works properly when their customers upgrade. That's why real software companies that don't work in vacuums have open release candidate trials and not screwed up, unnamed leaks.

They were also very clear that they were not ready to release and that soon does not mean a release is imminent. They were crystal clear on that point and also said soon is later in the year. Given their history and their language, no one expected anything before this month, and now they've given firm dates for both the release of the new iPhone and iOS 4. Before WWDC, no one from Apple said anything that anyone could possibly misconstrue. If you can't concede that point, then I don't see how you are being at all objective.

You just can't compare Apple's professionalism regarding the matter to Google's.

It's important to anyone who makes money off an application they sell in market to people who are going to be using FroYo on a Nexus One. It's important not to blindside these people and to give them a clue about what you are doing when you can. If you don't know when you can release, then don't promise anything that can be misconstrued or missed. Is you are releasing something before a final release, own it and explain it. Be more responsible to business partners. Communicate what you know and not what you don't that will impact them, and don't make idiotic statements (fuzzy or otherwise) you can't stand behind. That's how it can be better and that's how the grown ups in the software world do it. I think the source of Google's problem is due to immaturity and lack of experience coordinating what they do with the business partners they impact and lack of experience in a business that is brand new to them. I think they'll learn fairly quickly and end up being very good at this.

Feel free to continue to disagree, and thanks for playing nice.
[Nexus One General] jgcaap:
possibly google is used to open users costumers more than comercial costumers (people wich would use more likely a base and develop from that base) My opinion..
[Nexus One General] maxawesome:
This is the same thing that pissed me off about the WP7 release scheduled for "Holiday 2010". WTF is that?

"Holiday 2010". Thanksgiving? Halloween? Christmas? Saint Swibbon's Day?
[Nexus One General] jgcaap:
summer is all i can think of =p
[Nexus One General] Mokurex:
This turned into a thread of how people define "a few weeks." LOL