yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[EVO 4G General] eagle63:
Speaking of out of the loop, you're missing the point, which is that for purposes of this conversation, firmware IS software. We're talking about what can and can't be fixed on our EVO's. In this case, firmware is code that can be modified. HTC can't mail you a new piece of silicon. They CAN, however, provide you with a fix for logical errors (code) in the firmware.
[EVO 4G General] RickBaller:
Lol, go call an Electrical Engineer a programmer and get laughed at. I'm just trying to educate you.
[EVO 4G General] alan7467:
While I'm not a software or electronics engineer I can say that I have heard firmware described as hardware on many occasions. Whether this is because of the close relationship it shares with electronic components or not is something that some folks (here and elsewhere) could debate for a while.

Guess my point is, describing firmware as hardware is not totally uncommon. Thus having HTC reps describing the frame cap as a hardware issue could very well point to a firmware issue as opposed to an actual electronic component issue.
[EVO 4G General] RickBaller:
I agree, I was just trying to help give some perspective to some of the worried people that thought that since HTC said it was a hardware issue that it may not be able to get fixed. Hardware includes the firmware, just merely trying to help out.
[EVO 4G General] joackie27:
http://www.techterms.com/definition/firmware

Firmware is a software program or set of instructions programmed on a hardware device. It provides the necessary instructions for how the device communicates with the other computer hardware. But how can software be programmed onto hardware? Good question. Firmware is typically stored in the flash ROM of a hardware device. While ROM is "read-only memory," flash ROM can be erased and rewritten because it is actually a type of flash memory.
[EVO 4G General] RickBaller:
Good luck with this crowd bro, lol.
[EVO 4G General] Shidell:
Firmware is written (mostly) in Assembly, and the only difference between it and any other software (other than the fact that most software today isn't written exclusively in Assembly) is that the Engineers and/or Developers who write it have access to documentation outlining specific addresses for said hardware.

Hardware requires firmware to function, but the two are mutually exclusive, and you can replace firmware to change the functionality of hardware, given that the hardware supports replacing it.

There should be absolutely no confusion that hardware and firmware are one.
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
Dude. I have an Electrical Engineer right next to me and he's laughing that you think firmware is hardware. Let's move on.
[EVO 4G General] SPENONE:
I'm glad you guys are arguing about whats the best solution to the 30FPS issue :rolleyes:
[EVO 4G General] Shidell:
On a constructive note, anyone have a clue when HTC will be making the EVO kernel public? The Incredible's kernel is available, and they've been updating the site--but still no official source for our beloved phone.
[EVO 4G General] SPENONE:
I personally think they are going to wait for the 30days.
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
Yet another HTC response. This is what a friend of mine got.

"Thank you for taking the time to contact HTC America Technical Support via E-Mail with your request to remove the frames per second cap on the Sprint EVO 4G. The human eye can only process 29.97 frames per second, so HTC purposely capped the EVO 4Gs frames per second to 30. This has enabled the device to operate more effectively in other areas because of less processor usage in FPS...."

Love the consistency on this. Ugh.
[EVO 4G General] RickBaller:
I'm assuming you meant mutually inclusive since they only exist to support the other. It sounds like you're validating the point I'm making but who can tell anymore lol.

Most of the firmware I've written has been in C and Embedded C, although you will see some Assembly firmware out there (which is more my preference anyway).
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
Wasn't it after 30 days for the Hero kernel to get released? Does anyone know of a HTC device where the kernel was released within the 30 day window of the initial release?
[EVO 4G General] vinscuzzy:
93 pages of discovery, whining and progress, then total thread de-railment!
[EVO 4G General] SPENONE:
Not that i know of..

LL
[EVO 4G General] jasonziter:
You got it!!

Sent em' a nice long letter asking to address the following issues.

1. Wifi - range fix since standing over my wireless N gamerslounge router (1 foot) = 70% signal.....seems silly

2. 30 FPS - asking for a user controlled driver to allow the USER to set the quality level - this allows us to decide how important the battery life is to us

3. Froyo - asking for update to help with overall performance and battery life thus helping with #2 (battery)

4. Screen separation issue - I live in Florida, if the humidity gets under the glass on either of my TWO EVO's they are both going back. Thankfully, I think my cases (Pt belt holster from Best Buy) are keeping the glass down.

Hopefully they listen.

Thanks for all your hard work guys.

-JZ
[EVO 4G General] Vinny75:
http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=6884437#post6884437

I don't know what this 30 day window is, I've not seen any reference in the GPL or FSF about a 30 day window to have source available. I think it is immediately.

If you look at some of my other posts, I've already tried contacting both HTC and Sprint about the source. Just emailed the FSF today.
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
Yeah I saw that post, but I was just looking at HTC's history on this issue, and trying to use that as a benchmark for the EVO. For some reason I think it's always a few months after the device's initial release. However, I have no 'hard' dates to back that up. Just what I vaguely remember from previous devices. :(
[EVO 4G General] Vinny75:
I think someone mentioned the Incredible's source was released the next day... but I never verified that... generally, HTC has a bad record
[EVO 4G General] nestersan:
We can only see 30FPS ? Apparently HTC is populated by mutant humans ?
[EVO 4G General] Vinny75:
Nah, just pointy haired bosses
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
I will say that the random HTC responses give me some hope. It makes me think that they don't know what the root cause is yet, and it gives me hope that the devs here will figure out a solution.
[EVO 4G General] magicalan:
I got this letter after sending him a message :P

Hello Raphael, Thank you for taking the time to contact HTC America Technical Support via E-Mail with your request to remove the frames per second cap on the Sprint EVO 4G. The human eye can only process 29.97 frames per second, so HTC purposely capped the EVO 4Gs frames per second to 30. This has enabled the device to operate more effectively in other areas because of less processor usage in FPS.
[EVO 4G General] asrebel:
I think this response (which seems to be the new standard in responding to this issue) is my favorite. :(
[EVO 4G General] ralphus4121:
emailed HTC, here's the reply i got:

Hello , Thank you for taking the time to contact HTC America Technical Support via E-Mail with your request to remove the frames per second cap on the Sprint EVO 4G. The human eye can only process 29.97 frames per second, so HTC purposely capped the EVO 4Gs frames per second to 30. This has enabled the device to operate more effectively in other areas because of less processor usage in FPS.

To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

Sincerely,

Jesse

HTC
[EVO 4G General] Vinny75:
We are just going to get these canned respones from now, need to be asking for them to fulfill their GPL obligations and release the source, then we will truly know what the limitation is.
[EVO 4G General] TZAK34:
Well at least it seems like everybody is getting under their skins a little bit, which is probably a good thing. Otherwise I don't think they would have started to give everyone a generic response. Well done. :)
[EVO 4G General] Jykinturah:
I would send a message right back saying that the human eye is not capped at 29.97 images per second... It is more like 90-120. Movies get away with 24 because they use blurred frames.

What an outright lie. Makes my blood boil.
[EVO 4G General] EVO'D_OUT:
I just got back this reponse from HTC yesterday...same stuff, HDMI out blah blah...

Hello XXX. Thank you for taking the time to contact HTC America Technical Support via E-Mail with your concern about the fps rate in your HTC EVO 4G. I do understand how important it is for your phone to function properly and I apologize for any inconvenience this situation has caused for you. Since the HTC EVO 4G employs a unique HDMI output to deliver video in HD quality to an external display, the hardware graphics driver interface on the HTC EVO 4G uses significant resources for the HDMI output and therefore displays graphics at 30 frames per second on the integrated display. This is a hardware, and not a software, limitation. It’s important to keep in mind that content including most movies and television, are created to run at between 24 and 30 frames per second. The 30FPS is a hardware limitation. We have found that some games may be impacted by this limitation. The HTC Evo 4G has been locked to 30 FPS. This should not present a major issue for most Android applications; however, the customer may have some issues with some 2D or 3D applications. The device has been locked at 30 FPS due to enhance overall performance in the device. By lowering the FPS of the device the CPU works less. This increases the battery life of the device. There may be third party options available to remove this limitation; however HTC does not condone the use of, support the use of, or offer technical assistance with regard to these third party solutions.

To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number 10USCW26ENA000158.

Sincerely,

Richard

HTC
[EVO 4G General] :
same....

Ugh I hate HTC, probably going to sell this phone and get the Droid X.
[EVO 4G General] themyst:
Whatever happened to Mr. Black who acknowledged an issue?
[EVO 4G General] Jykinturah:
I'm sticking to the Evo, because even with the cap it is pretty damn ridiculous. I have hope that it will be fixed. If HTC just releases the source for the kernel I would be SO MUCH HAPPIER.
[EVO 4G General] knives of ice:
The only accurate response we will get on this issue is if engadget or other tech blogs get involved. You cant believe anything a csr replies in an email to be accurate.
[EVO 4G General] donatom3:
Re: Evo capping all graphics to 30FPS:The reason why

Exactly csr responses are just canned responses that higher up has told then to give people the dad thing is that these responses will be good enough for the majority of the people calling in.
[EVO 4G General] Minjin:
I think you guys are reading way too much into the responses from some clueless customer support people. If it was a PR statement vetted by lawyers and engineers and marketers and everyone else, it might be worth reading into but these emails aren't.

As for the 29.96 frames per second, you guys should be happy HTC capped it at 30FPS and not something lower. Now you can say that you have a Retina display. ;)
[EVO 4G General] nestersan:
It is times like this I wish I had an e-brick to chuck at you...lol
[EVO 4G General] frifox:
+1, tipped... noted the "touch sensor lag" as well.
[EVO 4G General] EliWay:
I just tipped them as well.
[EVO 4G General] Mecha2142:
Don't forget Gizmodo and Pocketnow. I've contacted them regarding these issues as well.
[EVO 4G General] npace:
Here's what I've found so far by looking at the kernel code. I don't know if I'm completely on the right track. Might not be a LCD thing as much as some other framework/whatever limit.

The LCD panel stuff is here:

arch/arm/mach-msm/board-supersonic-panel.c

arch/arm/mach-msm/include/mach/msm_fb.h

In board-supersonic-panel.c, there is a structure defined with "platform data"

static struct msm_mddi_platform_data mddi_pdata = {
[COLOR="Red"][B].clk_rate = 384000000,[/B][/COLOR]
.power_client = mddi_novatec_power,
.fb_resource = resources_msm_fb,
.num_clients = 1,
.client_platform_data = {
{
.product_id = (0xb9f6 << 16 | 0x5582),
.name = "mddi_c_b9f6_5582",
.id = 0,
.client_data = &novatec_client_data,
.clk_rate = 0,
},
},
};

Also from

struct msm_mddi_platform_data {
.........
struct {
unsigned product_id; /* mfr id in top 16 bits, product id
* in lower 16 bits
*/
char *name; /* the device name will be the platform
* device name registered for the client,
* it should match the name of the associated
* driver
*/
unsigned id; /* id for mddi client device node, will also
* be used as device id of panel devices, if
* the client device will have multiple panels
* space must be left here for them
*/
void *client_data; /* required private client data */
[B][COLOR="Red"] unsigned int clk_rate; /* optional: if the client requires a
* different mddi clk rate
*/[/COLOR][/B]
} client_platform_data[];
};

This data is used by the drivers/video/msm/mddi.c driver. The clk_rate is set from there.

static int __init mddi_probe(struct platform_device *pdev)
{
......
ret = mddi_clk_setup(pdev, mddi, pdata->clk_rate);
......
}

I think this might be the pixel clock setting for the framebuffer device.

NOTE: The INCREDIBLE drivers are in the same folder as well.

There is a board-amoled-panel.c file which does not create that structure, which could mean that no "limit" (384000000) would exist on the amoled display.
[EVO 4G General] coolbho3000:
By the way, the Sapphire runs that clock at 122880000, but it has a lower resolution.
[EVO 4G General] Patb8man:
I am a tech fanatic and I am all about specs and I do understand the differences in framerates. But I wonder how much does it really effect the device as a whole. I mean technically I know the differences, but in actuality I dont really notice any hindrance. Now I admit I dont play a lot of games on my phone but for instance I play Homerun 3d battle and Asphalt and I have run them side by side with a droid rooted and overclocked and they play pretty much identical. IMO its not that big of a deal...and since many people have an issue with it just like stated here before I'm sure it will be worked. I mean really for the most part many of us arent satisfied with a phone un rooted, unlocked or unmodded in the first place which is why were here. So just chill to the next episode LOl
[EVO 4G General] dever76:
I ran Quadrant benchmark, it lists 60Hz as the refresh rate.
[EVO 4G General] Dougie2187:
Benchmarks

Some benchmarks on various roms. I checked the following roms. I was going to link to the Roms, but since i'm new it won't let me. You can find the RvU and FroYo ones in the All Roms Thread, but the other one is taged by [Wip-Rom].

RvU Rom: On android central

AOSP Rom: Avalaunch's AOSP Rom

FroYo Rom : Avalaunch's FroYo Rom

Seems like it doesn't change much between them. There are some instances where the instantaneous hits peaks of over 30 and even some over 40. But the average is a nice constant 29.
[EVO 4G General] timgt:
This has really been bugging me, All my games run laggy. I have doodle jump and mine does not run SMOOTH. I posted the video below of a Nexus one running it and it does indeed run smooth.

cant post links because of noob status apparently. The youtube video I am referring to has this after youtube.com

/watch?v=aVL56HD1dUg

Mine is choppy as he jumps up. I wonder if it has to do with this 30fps cap. I swear the iphone and nexus one must have this game at 60fps because it is BUTTER smooth on both of those devices.

I also have homerun battle 3d on my 3rd gen Ipod touch and it runs wayyyyy smoother then my homerun battle 3d on my EVO, as I hit homeruns it is choppy as it sails to the stands. I can tell because I play them right next to each other at the same time.

How can we fix this?????
[EVO 4G General] Patb8man:
That's crazy...my homerun 3d runs smooth...it was laggy on my hero only playable if overclocked but my evo is perfect.

-------------------------------------

Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App
[EVO 4G General] EliWay:
I don't think the incredible is affected by this issue. Maybe it would be helpful to see what values are in the incredible's file?
[EVO 4G General] mrono:
Yeah, homerun is laggy for me too
[EVO 4G General] npace:
incredible is not affected -- confirmed it on gf's phone.

It doesnt have the same structure but there is a different one, containing clk_rate.

And the value is smaller than EVOs:

static struct msm_lcdc_timing amoled_lcdc_timing = {
.clk_rate = 24576000,
.hsync_pulse_width = 4,
.hsync_back_porch = 4,
.hsync_front_porch = 8,
.hsync_skew = 0,
.vsync_pulse_width = 2,
.vsync_back_porch = 6,
.vsync_front_porch = 8,
.vsync_act_low = 1,
.hsync_act_low = 1,
.den_act_low = 1,
};

I dont know what to make out of this. There is a formula for calculating the pixel clock which is based on the hsync and vsync but I dont know if it applies the same way on both amoled and lcd displays (hsync/vsync sounds CRT to me)

Short of changing the value randomly, recompiling the kernel, cooking a rom and trying it, I dont know what else right now.
[EVO 4G General] npace:
Aaaand... we got engadget coverage :)
[EVO 4G General] samfreese:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/10/htc-evo-4gs-graphics-capped-at-30fps/

Rock on...
[EVO 4G General] Mecha2142:
Woo, that worked! I linked them to both of those sources, but I'm sure somebody else did it before me :P.
[EVO 4G General] gernade23:
Lol nice work guys! Anybody get the word out to Android Central or any of those other blogs? Alot of the 3D gameloft games and some others have a fair amount of lag so I would love to see this issue cleared up!!
[EVO 4G General] jayv1717:
so far all my games are smooth..except doodle jump..but that is just a badly made port from iphone
[EVO 4G General] EliWay:
Not true. Someone just posted a video of doodle jump on the nexus one, and surprise, surprose: Smooth as butter.

WOHOOOOO Engadget coverage! Hopefully HTC and Sprint will take notice now and resolve this quickly.
[EVO 4G General] jayv1717:
is it on froyo..because i had it on my nexus one with 2.1 and it was laggy as well
[EVO 4G General] kevinspruill:
From SDX board. quoting Jerdog

apparently from Sprint's internal tech forum:

and...
[EVO 4G General] mdaddy:
Time to return the phone...
[EVO 4G General] muncheroo:
i just want to meet the asshole who thought it'd be a good idea to sacrifice basic function for a pos hdmi port 99% of us won't ever use
[EVO 4G General] EliWay:
I will also be returning my phone if this is indeed confirmed to be a hardware cap. To all of us taking it back: Call Sprint retentions first and let them know why you are canceling.
[EVO 4G General] AssassinsLament:
I know right? This isn't an iPhone 4 Killer, it's a glorified 720p mp4 player.
[EVO 4G General] jblazea50:
that's how i feel as well; who is going to use their phones for HDMI port? i can't see any reasonable person using it on a daily basis (maybe once or twice a month); that's the reason they ****ed up this phone with this stupid limitation; whoever is in charge of making this decision should be fired immediately

let's see, is HDMI more important or the ability to play games and other stuff that needs better fps; there's only one simple answer to that question and HTC still managed to drop the ball
[EVO 4G General] themyst:
OK, disable MDDI altogether, disable HDMI, reroute RGB to LCD, use Incredible drivers to do this. I'm sure it can still be done.
[EVO 4G General] Minjin:
Let's talk about this:

"The semi-technical version: The device has two interface adapters, one using MDDI 1.1 and the other RGB. The HDMI port has the RGB interface tied up so the main LCD uses the MDDI 1.1 interface which happens to operate at 30 Hz. Its not a software "cap" at all, its just a limitation of the MDDI 1.1 interface that was used when the RGB interface was needed elsewhere. " "

Can anyone add any tech details to the RGB and MDDI 1.1 discussion? Are they saying that these are separate chips with direct lines to the two outputs? What is the typical layout of a non-HDMI HTC phone? Why didn't they use the RBG for the display and the MDDI 1.1 for the HDMI port? I fully understand needing to add on an extra display chip for the HDMI. I don't understand why they would weaken the one that is used for the onboard display. I must not be understanding something.
[EVO 4G General] ibegriot:
I wasn't planning on using it. It's a major shame that the Evo was gimped for what is possibly the most useless feature of the phone. Smooth gaming versus hdmi out? Hmmn... which would most high end users want?
[EVO 4G General] themyst:
I guarantee they will come out with an HTC EVO 4G+ "now you can enjoy all of your Android gaming at SUPERSONIC speed on a massive 4.3" wide screen...."
[EVO 4G General] redct:
I'm pretty sure that while difficult, this should be possible to do once we get the kernel. XDA has done more with less before. Now that we have semi-confirmation, I'll start looking through the source that we have. :D

On another note, that makes a lot of sense now—the boot animation runs really smoothly on some ROMs. This is probably because it kicks in before most of the main graphics handling kicks in and outputs to RGB before something else can kick it down to 30hz and MDDI. Time to see if we can get the source for /system/bin/bootanimation...

EDIT: QuickLogic has created a display that can support 60 FPS @ FWVGA running in MDDI mode. If this truly a hardware issue, this might be a promising hardware replacement?

EDIT EDIT: If you start fps2d and then run /system/bin/bootanimation (manually through adb), it has the same FPS effects as turning the screen off. Averaged 62fps.

Too many EDITs: Testing: If you run Doodle Jump, start the bootanimation, cut it midway through, and watch Doodle Jump guy bounce, I think there's a quick burst where it still renders at 60FPS. Can anyone confirm?
[EVO 4G General] drbadass:
FINALLY!!

I feel like we are actually making progress here. Props to you guys who know much, much more about these things than I.
[EVO 4G General] nestersan:
Wouldn't logic dictate you put the locked 30FPs on the HDMI even if you have to spend a bit more cash, then send the RGB to the display.
[EVO 4G General] drbadass:
HTC's official position is that HTC operates independent of logic.

(and the law, of course. WHERE IS THE DAMN KERNEL)
[EVO 4G General] redct:
...shall we email them again?
[EVO 4G General] Minjin:
Since the Incredible seems to be very similar to the Evo, how is its display architecture laid out? Can anyone bring some hardware tech to the table?
[EVO 4G General] hibby50:
for 20 bucks extra a month
[EVO 4G General] AdamLJ:
HTC EVO 4Gs
[EVO 4G General] nestersan:
So let me understand, if this is a physical thing, why does turning off the screen show greater than 30 FPS, is this because it is dumping the screens into a null space ? (wrong wording, but it's late)

If this was purely physical it does not explain why the boot anim is 60. So obviously it seems the kernel is picking the interface and sending output just like I can pick which Monitor to use on a multi-GPU system.

This should be more than fixable if kernelsource is available.

So again, HTC lies out their asses to even Sprint.
[EVO 4G General] themyst:
:D I can so see that happening. "Premium Data Plus allows you to enjoy the robust gaming experience on the Android Platform for an additional $20 a month"