yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus One General] Eclair~:
I've never downloaded an app that was any of those listed things, if you pay close attention to the comments and the rating of the app -- common sense should be able to tell you if it's worth it or not. I stay clear of the "crap apps". If you can't do as such and moderate yourself correctly, then maybe you should actually stay with the Apple App Store. You could say self moderation isn't needed, but at least we aren't forced to be limited by iSheep god Steve.

"Widgets and other information occupying the screen," are completely subjective to the user. Apple keeps their home screens plain, boring, and highly uninteresting, I'm surprised people can actually put up with simply having a black wallpaper (as they use to). I couldn't do it. The icons for the apps though are colorful..

http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-2.0-highlights.html

Please scroll down and notice that Android has supported HTML5 since 2.0. Don't know how functional it is though, but its there.

I believe the iPhone needs to say hello to Cupcake... aka, Android 1.5. Or maybe even 1.0? Customization isn't new here.
[Nexus One General] Jack_R1:
Your post suffers from a huge amount of bias, but you've been answered (and you should learn stuff about any system you're going to compare, not listen to someone else's words - like praising crippled semi-multitasking of iOS4 that can't allow to do anything unless the OS supports it (and OS supports something like 7 types of background calls, which is nothing, so if you were to design your own background app and fall out of those types, oops).

But you've been answered enough, I'll just take my 5 min to answer that quoted point.

Your source (and you're, of course, biased reader, since the comparison showed ~15% overall difference, all things combined) was a comparison made by Anandtech (if I remember correctly), comparing Android 2.1 on Nexus with iPad by browser performance.

Well, here's the newsflash: since then JIT was introduced and the browser sped up, and the gain is 500% (if you count it being as biased as you are, in fact the gain is smaller, but it's still very big, averaging over 100%). So Google already compared them again, for the fun of it, and Nexus with 2.2 ran circles around iPad. Since iPhone4 can't sport a faster A4 version than iPad, but only the same or slower, you fail (in comparison).

And for the general knowledge: A4 is Samsung's version of ARM Cortex A8, Snapdragon contains Scorpion, which is Qualcomm-extended ARM Cortex A8. The raw computing power of the CPUs can't be VERY different, the question is more - how effectively SW uses them, having many layers on top of CPU code.
[Nexus One General] rjhay22:
If I may add to the application comparison between the two... Can an iPhone try out a paid apps for up to 3 days and get a refund if it does not meet our expectation? Hmmm.
[Nexus One General] MaximReapage:
Oh shoot I absolutely forgot about this. Android Market is def >> App Store
[Nexus One General] MaximReapage:
Hmmm I thought I had seen something in your post in regards to AGPS but I'm too lazy to go a page back and double check. Also, any cell phone "has" AGPS - it's simple cell tower triangulation based on ping - it's just that Apple never utilized it until now....and of course, made it seem like it was THEIR "breakthrough technology".

In order for an application to have su (superuser - linux version of administrator) access, you must have rooted your phone. As far as other special privileges go, I'm not 100% certain, but I think they must be core processes to have permission.

As I said, you do not jailbreak an Android phone. A device must be in an "app jail" to be jailbroken. Since Android phones are not in such a jail, they cannot be jailbroken. That's kind of like asking how to change a flat tire on a tireless hovercraft.

Rooting is not the same process - rooting allows applications to have superuser access to pull certain functions of the phone that would not otherwise be available - like controlling the trackball color or flash on the nexus one (pre-froyo, these were root-only functions).

As noted in your source, those comparisons are in Android 2.1. The browser in Android 2.2 blows the ipad out of the water - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBQFXRW5ZiE#t=06m35s

Comparing talk times on phones is like comparing miles until empty on cars - it's a best guess at most. Just like you can't do a good comparison with those figures, you can't really do a good comparison with talk time figures. You need the mAh ratings.

If you're looking for an Android phone with front-facing camera, the Evo 4G is already out on sprint, and with a better front camera than the iphone 4, and can work on cell networks or wifi. I know it will work on 4G for a fact, and idk if it will work on 3G.

The iphone's version of "multitasking" does not provide a documentable advantage over android's in terms of power consumption. Why? It depends on what service and what background process you are using, what app is doing it, what it is doing, how much it is tasking the CPU, etc.

As far as the App Store goes, Apple has shown us several times - and not just with flash - that they will reject an app (or passively reject it by just not approving it) simply because they don't like it. Check out http://apprejections.com/ for a few examples.

By rendering, I mean graphical rendering, as in games, movies, etc. At any rate, with an unreleased processor, we can't be sure of too much except this: Samsung makes Apple's A4 CPU, and THEY said it blows the A4 out of the water....so we'll see.

Let us know if you have any other questions about anything any of us said, or if you just want to know more, man. I don't see you as biased per se in an intentional sense, but you've def been on the fruit side of the force for way too long!
[Nexus One General] steelbom:
As I said, I believe the iPhone 3GS had AGPS. I did post a quote about the 7 different types of multitasking APIs you can use, which did include something about AGPS.

We'll have to wait for the benchmarks then :p

Technically, I was only talking about

EDIT:

How come Google was using their own web app to test this stuff, and not the official SunSpider JavaScript benchmark site as the article in my link did?
[Nexus One General] Jack_R1:
Answering the relevant parts.

Again, your claims of "better battery life" and "better performance" are based on nothing but Apple's propaganda. In fact, one can argue that a good-written dedicated background app will use less resources than one written to rely on generic OS processes and will definitely be faster, and a bad-written app that hogs the resources would be equally harmful on both systems. There has not been any comparison that would favor Apple's way, except, of course, someone's bare words and claims backed by nothing, not even theory - but you declare it "better". That's a good example of bias I'm talking about.

Those 7 types provide nothing or close to nothing. You don't even bother to check before answering...

http://www.tuaw.com/2010/06/14/multitasking-in-ios4-is-not-a-magical-sparkle-pony/

You need THE APPS to support the new method (and until they do - which will take time - there is effectively no multitasking), and quoting:

"That's it, though. Background processing is extremely constrained to three specific areas, which Apple believes will cover most of the things that most people want to do most of the time.

Since what iOS 4 is offering is not really unfettered multitasking, Instapaper can't program itself to automatically update itself every X hours or minutes. Neither can your RSS reader. Neither can Simplenote. Neither can 1Password. Neither can TextExpander. Neither can any other application."

I can give you 10 apps on my Nexus that rely on their own communication schedules, updates, etc. Read carefully: it will never be available under iOS4. Is that what you call multitasking, and is that anyhow comparable to what Android users have, and is that what you call superior? I call it almost nothing, crippled attempt to provide a bit of functionality to fool Apple sheep into thinking they have something they don't.

Source? Watch Google IO from 3 weeks ago, see the comparison live. Search this section, there is a thread "which apps were used to compare browser performance between Nexus and iPad", the links are there. And read what I wrote about CPUs.
[Nexus One General] Jack_R1:
People did that, too. There were benchmark results here in some threads, with the same results - iPad doesn't compare. You can note that unlike their previous developer summit, Apple didn't even try to show performance edge over any new Android device while unveiling iPhone4 - because they don't have it.
[Nexus One General] toooitwo:
It's rather annoying to see people compare Android to the screen of an Iphone or other parts of an Iphone. Android is only the operating system, where as the Iphone is the operating system and hardware combined. Android can be better then Iphone in any category because a new phone can come out that runs Android and has better specs.
[Nexus One General] steelbom:
It's not propaganda, I heard SJ's explanation of how it works, and it makes sense that it will use less battery life and performance compared to an app running in the background.

How so? Even if an app is written well, how could it perform any better than an app that just hands a task over to the actual OS to perform it (since there is so much less going on in that instance)?

Regarding the poorly written app, it wouldn't hog the resources because it isn't running, only a small part of code programmed to do a specific and simple task, at least thats how I see it.

Not yet, no there hasn't. There will be a proper comparison from some reviewer/tech site eventually.

What do you mean? They cover almost every possible need for multitasking in an app (at least that I can see, care to suggest others?).

Fast app switching will allow an app to return to where it left off, which is important, but not necessarily multitasking, which leaves (more or less):

Running tasks, background audio, background VoIP and background location, what other types of APIs are required?

What are you talking about that I don't even bother to check before answering? I'm well aware the apps need to support the new APIs, I believe I even said that... somewhere in those large posts of mine :D.

Why does an application need to automatically update itself? For what purpose? Let's say RSS reader for example? Why?

How so? What do you mean by communication schedules?

Interesting... I'll have a look at the thread.

EDIT: I searched with the keywords you quoted and it only found this thread.
[Nexus One General] Jack_R1:
I'll search when I have time.

Remarks in red.

Edit: in addition, I'm sure that examining the API will show more shortcomings. And I forgot to mention monitoring and controlling apps like Locale. And I also forgot chatting apps, like Gtalk/MSN/ICQ/etc - I want to be able to receive chats while doing something else with my phone, for example.
[Nexus One General] MaximReapage:
/facepalm

THEY DID: They just wrapped it up in a pretty web app so it would be easier to VISUALIZE the performance boost, rather than simply generating raw data (numbers).
[Nexus One General] steelbom:
It might, but it might not. I don't see it using more resources than it needs, for example the task management API, the OS only executes the code you tell it to right? Just as you might program your app to run that code, the OS will run that code for you.

What about the YouTube app: I can exit to the lock screen, double tap the home button and resume playing a video, I can see the name, skip forwards and backwards, pause and play, it's obviously using WiFi to continue to download the video, but wouldn't it be using less resources than if the entire app was running?

You don't know what I've learned, whilst you seem to know a lot, the majority of your paragraph at the very top is speculation -- correct?

Thats true I guess, Apple wouldn't never let the app in though :p

Then there will have to be other comparisons, regarding battery life, I.E, watching video, calling, etc.

I'm not blind, I saw what you quoted about Instapaper and I don't know what those apps are even for.

Wouldn't background data just be covered under task management? Performing long read/write operations? What are you talking about specifically?

What would be the purpose of background events? Can you provide some more examples for data/events/network? Being more specific in terms of what they need to do that requires those APIs?

How would you suppose I check them? SJ's said multitasking is better and it makes sense that it does, having a task being executed just makes sense it'll use less battery than if the whole app was running.

Unfortunately iOS 4 doesn't have widgets, so in terms of apps I can't really see the need for this.

This I can get, you'd want the RSS feed being updated automatically without you going into the app, even if it would load it all quickly... right?

I think I'm going to leave this alone until iOS 4 comes out, I've just read some stuff I can't really talk about until its released which clarifies a few things.

In Mail's case, there's a setting under Settings, which changes the frequency Mail checks for new mail, the fastest is every 15 min. Unless you have a mail account that supports pushing (like I do, MobileMe), in which case its received straight away and you hear that little "new message" sound, and you see the little red badge icon with the number of unread mail over your mail app.

Local or push notifications will do that I believe, and if you have a Push calendar (like I do), it should work just fine.

It's not, some of those things make sense, a lot of them only make sense for the Android OS which uses widgets. When I've said, can you give examples, I'm talking about them in terms of the iOS which doesn't have widgets.

With push notifications you can I think. Local notifications might replace those for such tasks, maybe.

I thought they might have, I just didn't know.
[Nexus One General] Jack_R1:
Don't know how well push notifications are supported and what clients (apps) can register on the phone to receive them. Need to check :)

Anyway, I hope I've provided you with some insight, and I'm going back to work :)
[Nexus One General] steelbom:
Wouldn't background audio only have procedures required by an application that needs to stream audio in the background? What generic processes could it possibly have running that aren't relevant to said task?

I regularly receive push notifications from my Facebook app that say: "Such and such commented on a post" which I can tap close or view and it'll take me to that app", so its possible, but local notifications which are new (they don't require to go through Apple's server) might do that also.

I'm not sure if that can be done or not, I'll find out eventually.

What would they need to periodically check? If you're talking about being alerted when a task needs to be completed soon, it, like the Calendar app, will send you a notification that pops up with a message on your screen.

Just curious, how would you get new tasks in there without opening the app?

It could be programmed (by the developer) to send you a notification to alert you that the due date is near.

Whilst on Android periodic updates might be used to notify you about events (correct me if I'm wrong), etc., the iOS can notify you without them. For example, I've got my Facebook app, and it uses push notifications to let me know when someone sends me a message, or writes on my wall, replies to my status, etc.

You can have push notifications do this stuff for you, however as of iOS 4, push notifications have been improved and local notifications (that don't require going through Apple's push server) have been added.

So, in a nutshell you want to know if an app can use cell triangulation once every minute to check where you are, and when you're near a specific location, open the Locale app?

I honestly don't know, but I wouldn't rule it out, background location could do that I think. An app can't bring itself to the front though, but it can send you a notification saying: "Hey, want to open me now", tap close or tap yes.

Regarding the WiFi scenario, I think so, but don't know enough yet to say for sure. However, an app won't have the right to change the WiFi setting, so... it won't work.
[Nexus One General] MaximReapage:
Steel, I think you misunderstand the way tasks work: a task (process, app, etc.) may sit in background for as long as it likes...and as long as IT IS NOT ACTIVELY USING THE CPU, the power hit is zero. This is the same on any device. The main thing that determines how much power a process or thread is using is cpu usage. If a background app is idle, boom, zero cpu usage, zero power usage. If a background app is active, then and only then do you have power usage. SJ is trying to confuse you by saying that any app in the background not using his system draws power and the system is therefore inefficient, and he is 100% wrong on that point. If an application is simply residing in RAM, that does NOT mean it is drawing power; and while dumping the rest of the app but the active thread/API DOES free up a bit of memory (which is a moot point on Android as the memory management on Android is awesome), it does NOT decrease the amount of power the app is causing to be used by the device...make sense?
[Nexus One General] steelbom:
That I do know, I'm thinking though that because the app is running in the background, it is using some CPU cycles that it shouldn't, but perhaps if it's coded properly it won't.

I'm not sure he ever said that, I may have just assumed that.

I sort of knew that too, but thanks for clarifying.
[Nexus One General] MrCDWJR:
i think this is hilarious

this is some dudes view on how iphone is the best and how iphone and android are sssooooo alike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyihc76xzRk&annotation_id=annotation_411028&feature=iv
[Nexus One General] RogerPodacter:
well honestly, he is right from the point of view of most average people. android and iphone look similar in that they both run on mostly all touch screen interface. have pages of app icons (android obviously widgets too). etc

from the regular joe schmoe they are similar.
[Nexus One General] MaximReapage:
I couldn't even get to a minute. Come on now, apple fanboyism at its finest. *rolls eyes*
[Nexus One General] big_adventure:
This thread, in fact, and it was me that posted them. :-)
[Nexus One General] commodoor:
I think he really likes the android but is afraid to admit it. wasn't the Iphone hacked at the Pwn2Own contest? nothing about android so he is wrong at saying the Ios is more secure than the Android.

He is talking about a virus for the Android, What Virus? lol

i agree on one point they starting to look similair but i like the widget and i ike to customis my phone here wins the Android. First everyone said android has to catch up iphone but now at OS level Iphone is trying to catch up android. look at the new things in Ios:

- choose wallpaper - c'mon

- Folders - i think its there since android 1.6

- Multitasking - android 1.x

I'm not impressed. But Steve makes old things new for the apple fanboys and everone go's whooo whaaa for what changing background? my old nokia could do it.
[Nexus One General] Jack_R1:
Oh well... Some more explanations.
[Nexus One General] pellen:
Folders even work in android 1.5 ;)
[Nexus One General] steelbom:
I've got over 120+ iPhone apps, a lot of games, and a few others. It's very rare I encounter a crash, they are there though. I've had a lot more crashes on iPad apps though, particularly third party apps. Also, you can go to your Receipt under your iTunes account and flag an item and e-mail them about it, and get a refund, if theres something wrong with it, and very likely if you're unhappy with it.

I find it interesting that Android could be improved so much with a software update, why exactly is that? Could Apple do the same?

I've tested my iPhone 3GS with 4.0 on the SunSpider test and it gets about 15,000, the iPad around 10,900.

I don't think everyone is going whooo whaaa for the ability to change the background, multitasking and folders are the biggies, at least for me. Although I do like having my background changed :)

I do understand that, I'm starting to think though I've been wrong about how the iOS multitasks, I'm going to have to look into it further, maybe it isn't the OS that handles it.

I believe thats possible, I just tested it with my iPhone. I have MobileMe setup, I went onto my computer and added a new event for 10 minutes in the future, and told it to alert me 5 minutes before. I slept my iPhone about 10s after making it, and then 5 minutes later Calendar sends me a notification saying I have an event in 5 minutes. I imagine its the same for third party apps because I get the same messages about people sending me messages on Facebook, etc.

Actually no, push notifications can be used by any third party app. Like with my Facebook example, it pushes notifications to me when something happens, even when the app is closed.

Push notifications and local notifications can be used by third party apps. I'm not sure about polling data.

I'd say it can actually. Since GPS software like TomTom for iPhone will be able to provide you with voice directions in the background, thus it must be able to do that. So you could write a background location app that is waiting until you get to within x of a certain location and then "do some action", but as I said, I don't think you can touch WiFi.

Not ever having used background location, I can't really tell you if you can switch between using AGPS and GPS, but I'm going to assume you can.

I've had iOS 4 on my iPhone 3GS for a few days, I've noticed no difference in battery life. I'll be interested to see how an iPhone 4 goes :D
[Nexus One General] Jack_R1:
Just checked that push notification thingy. I was almost right - it's not only for system apps, but it requires internet servers of the specific app to be specifically programmed to access Apple push servers, so it doesn't work "by itself". You can't just update things from any place of choice, you have to set up an internet server that will do the polling for you and push the notifications through Apple's server. Didn't check if it costs anything.

This, in comparison to direct access to whatever place of choice you have.
[Nexus One General] steelbom:
Erm I'd rather not. I was hoping for a short answer, but if that isn't possible then I'll be OK not knowing.

Erm, I meant in the regard it being much more fluid than I thought, not limited. I've been reading up about individual multitasking types, although I can't discuss them until OS 4 is released.

Just saying, I'm thinking its more flexible than I've made out, but maybe I'm wrong. We'll see.

Yes I'm aware of that, thats why I also provided the Facebook example.

iPad 3G or the WiFi only model?

I think I meant cell triangulation.

All of the Apple apps do though, but yes, no third party apps are available right now.

I always think I know what I'm talking about (I do research some of this stuff, the rest that I don't, I just don't know how), then I get told otherwise, and if that person can do it in a way that makes sense, then I learn.

Anyway, overall I'm going to "try" (haha) and stop discussing multitasking until iOS 4 is out and I can read about it thoroughly.

Local notifications won't though
[Nexus One General] RogerPodacter:
you know how dumb you look? i have never owned an apple product in my entire life, i HATE apple iphone with a passion. i'm a nokia fanboy and now use a nexus. so yeah, good one, you were right on the money.

last night at the sprint store, some lady was looking at the EVO, and guess what? she was comparing it directly against the iphone for her "kid" as a present. but hey, you know, you're right and the general population is wrong. nope, that was a fantasy i imagined last night. didnt happen, and i'm just crazy.