yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
The rational justifications for the one simple principle behind the chart has been explained to you a number of times.

You were not able to present any argument against that principle, other than calling it "childish bull****", which is, mildly speaking, moronic.

Other than you, nobody has been lying. You repeatedly posted lies about what other people said.

E.g. your claim that you have not been presented rational justification is a lie. Moreover, your claim that anyone has been denying that the iPhone can become powerful when hacked is also a lie.

That kind of defamation is just pathetic. You're the only liar here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
This has been clearly marked as opinion. Anyone is free to state his opinion.

And because it's an opinion, it is not included in the first post, where the chart is uncoloured.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
That's what I do and that's why the chart in the first post does not contain any colouring etc., just the pure facts.

There's only one simple rule, which is "no hacking".
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
You've offered no convincing argument on why we must not discuss or compare with a iPhone with it's full potential. Full- not subject to any unnecessary opinion based restraints.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
I have adjusted the first post.

_
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
You may discuss jailbroken iPhones as much as you want. That's part of "anyone is free to state his opinion".

But it will not be included in the chart.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Not the definitive comparison after all, right? You don't even have the right to capitalize the word 'The'. You should change it to 'a' instead of 'THE'. I could start another thread that compares them with the true capabilities with condition that USERS must not personally be expected to hack etc but should wisely utilize any readily available procedure for those phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
That's up to you!

I will not insult you for making a chart that contains unsupported/unallowed methods, like people have insulted me for not containing them.

If you make a chart, it's up to you to set the principles. I will not call your principles "childish bull****", cause I'm not an idiot.

And I will not insult you for having principles that don't oblige me, I will respect your principles, cause I'm not an idiot.

Only a complete idiot would call someone else's reasonable principles "childish bull****".
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You're making progress. eaglesteve's principles aren't childish bull****. You're jumping to conclusions about yourself though.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Unsupported? Be assured that the support by the jialbreak community is excellent. To give you an idea: although OS 4.0 is still not released to the public, developers for Cydia applications are already updating them to get ready for the big day. If only MS's market place could be half as good as Cydia's.

Unallowed? LOL. Have yet to hear of a single case when iPhone warranty was not honored after restoring from the jailbreak state.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Progress? I am not the one who called someone else's principles "childish bull****". That was you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Mixing the word 'THE comparison' and a chart based ranked based on personal opinion might be childish though. It implies that your conclusion is the only valld one.

Mixing the word 'THE definitive comparison' and colored ranking based on opinion is definitely childish.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
I've encouraged everyone else to colour the chart and state his opinion. Can't see what's childish about that.

Also, not breaching contracts or encouraging others to do so can hardly be called 'childish'.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Nah, you're hopeless. One last explanation: I thought you were making progress in realizing that eaglesteve's principles aren't childish bull**** (unlike yours), so I saw a glimpse of hope for you.

Unimaginative, repetitive, boring. Hopeless.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
The only one who's hopeless is the one who calls other people's principles "childish bull****".

It's all about respect. That's what you need to learn.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I'm sorry, but I'm definitely agreeing with Sethos II.

You can't include "hacked" phones because not everyone wants to hack a phone to obtain the full potential. Yeah, I can get music free, but no one should be called an idiot for not getting it illegally. Not everyone lacks morals.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You acknowledged that you live in a box, and also stated that you are an idiot and a moron by your standards (your words, not mine). You get zero respect. As do your principles.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Who is going illegal things? Jailbreak just void the warranty if you don't restore it before handing the phone in. It's not illegal. It also dies not involve distribution of firmware like in cooked ROM. Cooking ROM which is a major purpose of XDA involves distributing MS's intellecture property and most of us won't have any issue with the legality of it, so why is there a problem with jailbreak which doesn't even distribute Apple's firmware?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
One's judgment can be questioned for not being able to distinguish between a phone hacked to unlock functionality and stealing music. If one's morality repeats what he read in DMCA literally than he has nothing to do on xda-devs, apart from not being very smart. Or (more likely) we're dealing with some hypocrisy, in which case moral standards are irrelevant again.
[Windows Phone 7 General] elyosis:
Agreed. His principles must be respected.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
+ 1.

Anyone having problem with doing HardSPL, rooting, jailbreaking has no business coming to XDA.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/02/apple-says-jailbreaking-illegal

And even if Apple is dead wrong, saying that jailbreaking is okay doesn't make it an acceptable practice.

Just because it was POSSIBLE to jump on top of the levels in Halo 2 and Call of Duty 4, doesn't make it RIGHT. But then that gets into the entire discussion of honor and how not a lot of people know what that means.

Bottom line, you have to hack an iPhone to give it functionality when with other devices you don't. If you literally hand out the jailbreak techniques to everyone, not everyone is going to do it. And they should not be looked down upon for choosing not to.

jailbroken iPhone > out of the box Android

rooted Android > jailbroken iPhone

out of the box Android > out of the box Android

simple logic

Honestly it looks like all of you iFanboys are
[Windows Phone 7 General] elyosis:
From what I see there's a lot more to XDA.

vangrieg and you are trolls, cause all you want to do is destroy this good thread and you are idiots with no respect and morals.

@Sethos and people who helped

Very nice chart, best I've seen so far. Thanks!
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
There is absolutely no basis to form conclusion that a rooted Android is better than a jailbroken iPhone.

So far, I only see that jailbroken iPhones can do nanyang things which even rooted Android phones can't do. Examples: even stock iPhone can't fine control volume. Even stock iphone's headset can control volume. Only jailbroken iPhone can go not only to previous applcations but the next application. A rooted Android can't address the flaws in multitouch screen.

If rooted Android is that good then why are people so terrified of comparing it with jailbroken iPhone here?

If you want to know how rooted Android conpares with jailbroken iPhone we need to continue the discussion that I've started. So far I still don't know if Android could mix video music with audio and okay songs with the phone turned off. I also don't know if Android could play the video that ilve linked to.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Doesn't matter whether it's illegal or just a breach of a licence agreement, fact is it's not allowed and therefore should not be part of that chart.

There can't be any respect for someone who calls that rational principle "childish bull****" and starts insulting people for their opinion.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
iTrolls, you seem to be lost...

http://forums.macrumors.com/
[Windows Phone 7 General] elyosis:
vangrieg has no respect. Too bad that this informative thread got destroyed by this jerk!

Not including those methods is a rational decision that must be respected. You're a douchebag if you insult someone because he makes such a decision.

Too bad, really...
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Ha ha. Post #2. Who are you? Don't want to reveal who you really are? Are you Sentos I, Sentos II or Sentos III?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
vangrieg tries to destroy every thread where the word "Android" is spoken out. He's a freakin' troll.

He insults everyone who has an opinion that he doesn't like.

He's never able to present any arguments, he just calls opinions that he doesn't like "childish bull****" and insults the people who have opinions that he doesn't like.

All he presents is lies and insults to defame people who don't agree with him.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
The moment some people lose an debate, they label them troll to chase them away instead to offering ratinale counter arguments. This is getting boring.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
vangrieg has lost the debate long ago, when he started to insult me and lie about what I said, because he realized that he had no arguments.

That's what freakin' trolls do. Calling him a troll is only stating a fact. He tries to destroy every thread that mentions "Android" and insults people he doesn't agree with. That's what trolls do.

I don't know, maybe Android did something to his Mom, but that's not my fault.

And of course, there can't be arguments against the principle to not include illegal methods.

(and it doesn't matter what they are - illegal, unsupported, not allowed, breach of EULA... whatever)
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Anyone else feel the iFanboys getting far more defensive than usual since the Adobe war has begun?

I guess buyers remorse is kicking in!!!
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Buyer remorse? Not at all. For me it's simply keeping my mind open for better solution as technology evolves. At one time I was completely devoted to winmo because I saw no better option than that a few years ago. Shen iPhone was first released there was no third party applications at all and I mocked it as much much ad anyone of you. But because I don't have s close mind I was able to see the right time to switch to it. But it was only after lots of debates like this one and during those debate I was mostly pro winmo.

Now I feel that Android could potentially be better but I don't know f it is the case. I want to find out hence my participation in this thread. I feel that hardware technology advancement had come to a stage where I should not be contended with 3gs' screen resolution anymore. I want to seriously undrstand Android and certainly have no wish to put it down in anyway. Specifically I will be comparing HTC Supersonic against iPhone HD, and rooted Androud firmware against jailbroken OS 4.0 before deciding.

What better place to know what rooted Android phone could do other than here! I thought Sentos could help me in my journey of exploration. He was very helpful in the beginning but became defensive later and I was disappointed with him.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Nothing more open-minded than buying Apple...:rolleyes:
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
If there is a post that symbolizes trolling, this would be one if the best. I won't bother feeding you again. Leads to pages and pages of posts without any value added to the comparison exercise.

Back to topic, can someone with Android experience answer those unanswered questions?
[Windows Phone 7 General] gmanfuzing:
Sorry, but when did expressing facts become trolling?

Without even begining to read your arguments i would take you as the troll.

Just giving my opinion.

I own a touch pro, and occasionally run android. (just like my signature says)

I've managed to use android just as well as actual android phones and that version is rooted.

In my eyes its amazing. Wonderful to be able to run it on my phone.

However, i wouldn't buy an android device over a touchpro 2 or other winmo device because i have yet to see a keyboard that looks worthy.

If i were ok without a keyboard i would of switched a long time ago. in my opinion its better to buy a winmo and just run android xD

As far as rooting android goes, there are no limits whatsoever. you can do what you want with the phone, but you could almost do so out of the box.

Cydia and jailbreaking may provide free apps but i can get thoes on any warez sites in an equally legal manner for android without ever having to return them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Please allow me to correct some misconception on what Cydia is all about.

Cydia applications are primarily for buying applications that have either been rejected by Apple e.g. Porn, or applications which definitely would not be approved e.g. Backgrounder. They are not always free. I bought lots of Cydia applications with my hard earned cash. These applications that I bought mainly extend the OS functions, such as:

- to be able to jump directly to any part of the web page or any applications.

- to be able to download and save the video within the YouTube application.

- to be able to toggle on/off screen rotation.

- to have a file manager.

- to use bluetooth physical keyboard.

- to use theme. If you like to completely change thue look of the desktop, keyboard, etc, you could probably get 20 new theme every single day and play with them to your hesrts's content. No need to wait for new cooked ROM to get the effect b

- to download and save files on browser.

- to play musics that have been drag and stopes on the phone rather than via itune sync.

- full Bluetooth file transfer

- to transform the home page to show the helicopter view of all springboard pages and allow direct jumping to any of them.

- to allow multiple icons to be moved from springboard page to page.

- to show all notifications on the lick screens at one glance.

Etc

Yes, it also enable you to install tool used to access pirated Appke sanctioned software but the repository for that is unavailable by default and you have to include that repository yourself, ignore the anti-pirating warning, before you could start looking for pirated software vthe pirated software are not themselves available from Cydia.

One interesting thing is that the paid Cydia applications themselves are also target of cracking and piracy. So you could include repositories that let you use Cydia applications that are otherwise paid applications.

How about the Android market place? I have very limited understanding on what it us like and would appreciate some detailed descriptions here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] JAguirre1231:
Well, I can tell you that the Android Market doesn't reject apps like "Backgrounder" or a Youtube Downloader and such. I have only ever heard of one app getting removed and it was a porn store so... :\

Android doesn't have as many apps, but that does NOT mean that they are not of equal (and in my opinion, sometimes) greater quality. What you find in the App Store is almost guaranteed to have an Android app that is most likely free. Most apps in the Market are free (mostly because Android users are accustomed to free due to the market not having paid applications for the first few months of Android's existence).

However, being an Android user, you cannot deny that the Android Market SUCKS in terms of usability. It gets the job done, but in an embarrassing fashion. How is it that the KING of search not be able to have a HIGH quality search tool in their own app market, or why are we not able to hide certain app developers from showing (I don't want to see 50 themes from one developer in a day), why is it that we must update applications one at a time instead of having an "Update all" button a la iPhone?

*Note* This is probably written in improper English, I'm tired right now so I don't care.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Nice reply and I really appreciate informations such ad this.

Are the applications already installed syncable to a PC so that in the event of a firmware restore we than sync it back to the phone without incurring data charges again?

Does the market place notify the users of all software available for upgrade automatically?

Do paid applications generally have the concept of trial period?

What is the concept of protected application? Why don't they show up always? Is this a bug or are there valud reason why they disappear ?

Can I browse the market place without an Android phone? I would like to check to see if all my applications are there if I make the switch. Is there only one single market for Android?

Thanks for your reply again.
[Windows Phone 7 General] JAguirre1231:
1. Unfortunately no, apps are not backed up in the case of a firmware loss. Root users can make a complete backup of their phone.... but this is a non-rooted discussion. Edit: I forgot to mention, this is not the best way, but the Market does remember which apps you had installed between wipes. This works so if I have x number of apps installed and wipe, all data will be lost (Kind of the point of wiping), but open the market, my list of installed applications will be intact (Mind you, you will need to reinstall and resetup all of them)

2. Yes, it checks a few times a day and then puts a notification in the status bar notifying the user of updates

3. Paid applications have a 24 hour return period, you are able to use the paid app for 24 hours, and in the case you don't want it, may return it for a full refund. HOWEVER, if you ever buy the app again, the refund period is bypassed.

4. A protected application is used to do just that, it is a better way to protect an individuals property. With Android it is relatively easy to rework apps through the use of various tools (one being apktool which undoes the entire app). The problem with protected apps not showing is either 1) because the carrier does not want them to show and 2) You are a root user, Google implemented a way to block root users from accessing protected apps as root users are easily able to pirate them (Not that non-root users can't). Android devs have worked around this by using stock phone's fingerprints for the phones to access the Market (Sometimes the rom cooker/dev forgets and this is the cause for the no-protected apps cries)

5. You cannot browse the marketplace through a first-party desktop application without an Android phone, however there are a few third-party sites which offer a simple way of browsing (such as http://www.cyrket.com/). If you decide to use one of these, they often include a QR code with which, if you ever get an Android phone, you can scan to open the market and download the app (Granted it is available for your version of Android)
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Apps are not syncable to PC, but you can easily make backup of them to micro-sd card using app like ASTRO, EStrongs, AppManager, etc.

When you got a new firmware or new ROM, you need to install the one of the above app and RESTORE (reinstall) all your backed up apps from that micro-sd card.

No data charges here on reinstalling apps.

And Yes, Market will notify you for any update of your installed apps.

Trial version is separate in other app. Some kind like LITE version. How about in iPhone? WP7 can have trial and full version in 1 app.

About protected app not showing. This is because Google has not enabled the device in the Market. Yupe, this is one of the big downside of Android Market. We have to wait Google, but I cannot tell you how long because I just got my first Android device, HTC Desire, and I hate this situation.

Yes, you can browse apps on the web, for example:

http://www.cyrket.com

http://www.androlib.com
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
The answer is simple,

This thread, specifically, is NOT discussing about hacked nor rooted phones.

Not jailbroken iPhone and not rooted Android.

This thread is about comparing phone OS as it is.

See the comparison chart in the #1 post ...

Is this simple concept hard to understand?

If you want to compare jailbroken iPhone vs rooted Android, please make another thread.

Because then the discussion will be

focused

, people would understand more CLEAR and learn what is this jailbreaking or rooting, what can they do, etc.

As you said, you want to learn and explore other OS, correct? Me too ...

See? Noone is afraid for any discussion, but please bring them in its own forum thread (I will contribute).

Or are you afraid to discuss non-jailbroken iPhone

here

?

Please respect the intention of this thread and the OP, because you look quite intelligent person. Do not hijack forum thread.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Gentlemen,

I like the progress. Thank you both for your constructive suggestions and informations.

Yes, give me some time to start in the general section a thread to compare between these two great OS. I'll post the link once it's ready, and look forward to your contribution to help anyone looking for better phones.

Edit: Here is the new thread to compare the true full capability of iPhone versus Android. I invite anyone with good knowledge on rooted Google and jailbroken iPhone to participate here. Thank you:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=6209879#post6209879

Cheers.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
This is your little paranoya, nothing else.

It's funny how you keep bringing this up given that you and spike started doing it in this thread. I attacked an opinion, not the person. Not sure you can grasp the difference though.

You're talking about yourself. It is you who can't present any arguments, instead putting forward "principles", or beliefs. In your box this may be a way to do a reasonable discussion. In the world where your box is located it's not.

This thread is lost. Android fanboys here are lost. But it's here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That's what the OP started insisting on after being confronted by eaglesteve with iPhone's opportunities that weren't mentioned in his pseudo-research. He didn't have any arguments against that and started mumbling about his principles. Later he added the statement about non-hacking.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Well, let others decide who has never presented any argument.

Let them decide who came here insulting people with a different opinion.

I didn't call your opinion "childish bull****". I'm not respectless.

I told you the reasons for my one simple principle.

I didn't read any arguments WHY my reasons are "childish bull****". Instead I had to read lots of insults.

I think others can confirm that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Comparing non-jailbroken iPhone here is just useless because it will lose given the set of criteria. You'd better not include it it all. Including it and not discussing post-jailbreak opportunities is just not adding any value - everybody and their mom know about iPhone's limitations. Is it really interesting to repeat them? Is it what people call "learning something new" these days?
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
I've edit a previous post, but just like to invite knowledgeable and interested best phone seekers to visit the thread below.

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=6209879#post6209879

Sentos, I don't mean to hijack your thread. It was initially not just meant for stock firmware comparision. You had yourself quoted using rooting to overcome the storage and multiple exchange support deficiency in Android too. I respect your wish to change that now. Sorry if I cause any offence to anyone. Let's hope that we can have a more civilised discussion in the new thread with rules clearly laid down. No hard feelings I hope.

Cheers.