yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
I'm not so sure that HTC is definitely not able to do that. 9.48% is still a minority shareholder. The controlling interest is still up for grabs. Nokia might want it. Lenovo might want it. Motorolla might want it. HTC might want it. Or the OS might be available for anyone willing to pay for it to have it on their phone. I think anything could still happen. So, I advice the HTC supporters not to **** on this OS so quickly yet.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Since I was talking about minor (aka bug fixing or performace improvement) updates, yes, that's right, theydo.

Major updates to the iPhone are released once a year, which is the same time frame it took the Hero to get one.

What I said was 100% right. Next time, read and try to understand before you answer.

Where's the voice command for the 3G and the video recording? Right, not there. What about multitasking for the 3G? Again, not there.

So it's a fact that older iPhones usually don't get all the new features when they are updated. Which makes it a fact that there is no advantage over Android phones that don't get some new features.

And of course I can state facts with a straight face.

Nice job taking a quote out of context in order to change the message to something completely different from what I actually said.

Let me do the same, then:

Thanks for confirming.

None of them is necessary to make the phones not suck. I would buy a Desire or an HD2 even if hacking it was not possible. I would of course not buy an iPhone if hacking it wasn't possible because it sucks without jailbreaking.

Huge difference there.

Same lesson I just told our little kid vangrieg: Don't claim that someone said something when it's not true, cause that will backfire on you.

I'd never prevent people from hacking their phones, because I do it myself.

I just wouldn't buy a phone that sucks without hacking it.

The Desire is almost perfectly fine and I would not hesitate buying one even without the possibility to root it. Same for the HD2, it was pretty good even before it got HSPLed.

You can't say that of the iPhone and that's why I don't buy one, cause I don't want to rely on hacks to make my phone usable.

That's a perfectly reasonable desision and anything but "childish bull****" and I'm sure any reasonable person can comprehend that.

I strongly disagree that a device that needs to be hacked in order to do the same things that another device is able to do out of the box can be called superior.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fa7my:
Actually, I'm not "****ting" on Palm OS, I actually would have liked HTC to buy Palm.

The thing is, this hype about the companies buying Palm started when Palm was - supposedly - offering itself for sale.. but now the funds are back. So I'm not sure if the companies are gonna be still interested in buying Palm..
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
+1

Buy Palm and use webOS instead of ***** WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fa7my:
yeah.. webOS really got great potential.. it just needs some good hardware to really make it shine..
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Even out of the box, iPhone is far from being suck. It does not satisfy people like myself (but then nothing else would also, out of the box), but it meets the requirements of vast majority of users out there. Winmo really suck out of the box, but that didn't deter me from loving and using it for many years until I made the switch to iPhone.

Even if it sucks, like winmo is out of the box, I would still want it if the tweak/jailbreak can convert it from the being the worst phone (not that it is) to being the best phone. Like I said, it the maximum potential of the phone that really counts, not necessarily what it already had out of the box. Hell, out of box, Android phone's future firmware may not even have maps, keyboard, and the other components, if Google's strategy for defragmentation is to go ahead. It would certainly not be capable of accomodating all the program that I would use. Out of the box, my windo XP does'nt even have the ability to play flash video, show website using JavaScript, and do office documents.

@Fa7my,

I too think there's lot of synergy between HTC and Web OS. I really hated the hardware of Palm Pre, but its firmware attracted me a lot. I think HTC/Web OS combination is far more attractive than say a Nokia/WebOS or other vendor/Web OS combination. I like HTC's hardware more than the rest, although I know others may think differently.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Before it's too late hopefully... too bad they found an investor, now they will go on like they did, lose more money and when they're finally bought by someone who makes great hardware and knows how to sell it, it might be too late for webOS. Here's still hoping that HTC buy them soon and ditch WP7 for webOS.

And once again you completely missed the point. Do you have to hack XP in order to play Flash video? No, cause there's no Steve Jobs sitting behind it not allowing Flash to be installed.

Do you have to hack Android in order to get Google Maps etc.? No. Do you have to hack iPhone in order to make it not suck? Yes. That's the difference.

And you can say what you want, that difference does matter.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Cool, then the iPhone has full multitasking, alternative applications, file system access and so on. Subject to jailbreaking. Does the table reflect that? No.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That investor has "Capital Partners" in the name. Anyone with half a clue knows that such funds buy stakes to sell at a profit. Now is a good time to do it if you know there are potential buyers out there.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
You need to hack Android to be able to install programs on the SDHC don't you? This requirement to overcome memory constraint is absolutely basic and fundamental to most users I would think. The inability to install all the program they want would really be suck, won't you agree? Similarly, many business users (consultants for examples) might find multiple exchange server quite necessary. So let's not pretend that we're the absolute authority that are entitled to define what constitute basic requirements, as it differ from person to persons.

As users, we don't hack the phone ourselves. The development team does that. Similarly, if you're winmo users, you don't hack the phone yourself, Olipro does many of your Hard SPL, and the ROM Cook did the ROMS for you.

As users, I merely click on a program. It is far easier than installing a third party program. Why make such a big deal out of it? Is that some kind of "principle" nonsense logic once again? You might have some strange attitude and absolutely refuse to want to run this program, but I assure you that the few people who are not satisfied with the stock firmware (most are satisfied, the popularity of iPhone is the proof.) would have absolutely no issue using the jailbreak program. They don't have any hatred towards Apple to the extend of wanting any flimpsy excuse to completely reject a phone with such hugh potential and power once jailbroken.

If I have to personally hack the phone, yah, then you have a point. But it is not the case.

Come on, let's think and talk rationally.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Good point. This are not people who're interesting in the phone business per se. Just to make handsome profit by reselling it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
That's different from what Apple is doing.

Apple is giving you a radio and telling you that you can't listen to certain stations on it...

...and that's just outrageous.

Wow...really?

Obviously it can't display Flash out-of-the-box -- Adobe Flash is a 3rd-party plug-in and therefore doesn't ship with Windows.

But at the very least, you can view .doc files using WordPad, and I'm pretty sure (I could be wrong...) that IE6 has native support for JavaScript...and that ships with Windows XP.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I was talking about things like alternative browsers and such. What are you referring to? Flash? Porn apps?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
All of the above.

But mostly Flash.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Hmm, I have a full life but can understand why some poor nerds could have problems with lack of porn apps. Guess they could solve it with jailbreaking? But granted, this does sound like a "not letting users listen to a station". The browser and flash stories are, however, exactly fitting into the non-replaceable radio analogy. Apple isn't providing certain tools (just as my car is peculiar in not supporting mp3 playback). It's still a great car though.

On my HD2, Opera has flash support disabled by default (don't know why, guess it's some licensing stuff) but it's there, and you can enable it. I downloaded the tweak that does it but was too lazy to apply it immediately - thinking that I would do it when I run into a problem. Guess what, I never missed flash support although my phone is my primary internet device outside work. So for me it just doesn't matter. If Flash is important for someone they shouldn't buy the iPhone. But then again, it's the limited functionality that's important, not the mere fact that Jobs hates flash (Jobs is a dictatorial bastard of course, but what does it matter?). Now if the market considers Flash such an essential feature they'll stop buying the iPhone. Or Apple will be forced to allow it. Are you suggesting that I shouldn't consider it because they don't support Flash even though I don't need it? Because it's wrong to disallow anything from a platform?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
They just need to buy a phone that has enough memory for them to install what they want. No need to hack anything.

Cause they're not living in your small world where there's only one phone that needs to be hacked in order to not suck.

Because it is a big deal if a phone needs to be hacked in order to make it not suck.

That's what I do. Lesson number two: Apply your standards to yourself. Thinking rationally, it is a big - huge - deal and disadvantage if a phone sucks unless it is hacked.

And of course, thinking rationally, a phone that does the exact same things as another phone, with the different that it does them only after being hacked, while the other one does them out of the box, can only be inferior.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Lesson number three, little kid: Read, think and try to understand before you answer.

The post you answered to said: "Nobody was denying that the iPhone can become powerful after being hacked". That has of course nothing to do with the table. And no, the table won't reflect that, cause a good phone must be powerful out of the box, not only after being hacked.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Only in a silly narrow-minded black and white world. Like the one you live in.

Your inability to comprehend anything beyond the silly framework you live in at the moment doesn't put you anywhere near a position where you can give anybody any lessons.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Calm down, little kid, no need to start whining...

So reasonable arguments are only made in "silly narrow-minded black and white worlds"? Well, if that is true, I really want to live in one, rather than in the world I currently live in, where people like you mark reasonable arguments and rational thinking as "childish bull****" and "narrow-minded" and cry like little babies whenever someone mentions an unpleasing truth.

Lesson number four: If you know you're talking nonsense, just stop it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Ah, so you can't comprehend even the most basic things. I'm saying that you are a mentally challenged person with no imagination and serious cognitive problems. There are no emotions in this, just stating a fact. Capisce? Hardly, but whatever...
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Oh, so now we're living in a world where wise, intelligent, rationally thinking people are "mentally challenged with no imagination and serious cognitive problems"?

Yeah, maybe I'd rather live in a black and white world. :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
See, you can't grasp even the simplest of concepts. Did you even have a school in the woods where you grew up? Maybe not. Here's how it is. "mentally challenged with no imagination and serious cognitive problems" is a description of you. "wise, intelligent, rationally thinking" is not. So there's nothing wrong with the world.

Yep, stay there, it's going to be safer for you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Well, that depends on what world you live in, doesn't it? :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Not really, these are pretty straightforward concepts. But you can assume they're not, and that it does depend on the "world you live in", otherwise you'd get serious cognitive dissonance problems. Like I said, stay in your box, it's safer. Realizing the truth will be too painful for your little brain. So good night, buddy, don't try thinking about it, it's not an area where you have sufficient capabilities and skills. Keep dreaming.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Well, in MY box, the people throwing around the insults are not the intelligent ones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Cool, then don't check the history of your posts because you're not intelligent by your own standards.

In the world where your box is located, throwing insults or not throwing insults is a sign of manners and respect, not intelligence. Intelligence is judged by other indicators, which are too difficult for you anyway, so we'll leave it for now. You've had enough already. Plus, you are unimaginative, boring, have a tiny vocabulary and therefore a waste of time at this point.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
In MY box, intelligent people admit they are wrong, rather than calling others "mentally challenged" when they realize that they can't find any arguments anymore.

In MY box, intelligent people discuss with arguments, rather than marking other people's reasonable opinions as "childish bull****" without being able to explain why.

In MY box, intelligent people don't start flaming when they realize they've been wrong.

I might be wrong, but I think those standards also apply to "the world where my box is located".

Ironic how you spend so much time insulting the "waste of time" that I am. :D

But I don't care, every new insult is just another confession that you were wrong and can't find any arguments anymore.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gullum:
I'm sitting here in a crowded box filled with my ego

I talk to myself but I will never listen

I try to communicate with the world

But it's all just one way toughs
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fa7my:
+1.. like it very much my friend ;)

vangrieg, I'm not taking anybody's side.. but Seethos II has a point though..

on WM, Android, Maemo, webOS.. you can o a lot (besides changing ROMs, and Partitioning the SD card on Android) on all of these..

But on the iPhone you need to jailbreak in order to get what every other OS offers out of the box..

Again, I'm not taking anyone's side here.. just stating my opinion..
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Of course you need to jailbreak the iPhone to have a fully functional device, no argument about it. The whole fuss is about whether it's a big deal or not. And whether OSes need to be compared accounting for the fact that a jailbroken iPhone is a very functional device or not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fa7my:
I would say it "depends" to the average Joe.. it is the "Coolest thing ever" .. but for some people (mainly XDA-members) it is a big deal.. so again I would say it depends on your point of view to the gadget you are using..

The thing here is that I think Seethos was comparing the Out-Of-The-Box functionality of each OS.. because if we are going to include jailbroken iPhone, that means we have to include other hacked versions of the other OS's.. leading to infinite possibilities rendering the whole "Comparison Chart" useless..
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Exactly!

Winmo can't support reading websites in Chinese out of the box. But so what. Why is that even relevant to a guy looking for a new phone that lets him read such web sites? More important question is whether or not there's anything he can tweak/install/flash with REASONABLE EASE to get that feature and function.

Again, iPhone users don't do the hacking: the jailbreak team does that. All iPhone users do is to perform a single click on a readily available program with the USB cable connected. Only people with some silly hatred against Apple will vehemently see this as something users mustn't avail themselves out of some silly 'principles'.

Again, if everything must be out if the box, there is NO platform acceptable to me. Not one. The biggest fail could very well be Phones that doesn't let me install all my programs and that's MOST android phones including the Desire.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Of course he is. Which is absolutely pointless because a non-jailbroken iPhone isn't a fully featured smartphone. There's no need to do any comparison charts to realize that.

It's useless either way. I mean, would you buy a device based on which OS wins in that chart? Do you think I would? Anybody?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Of course it depends on the point of view, that's what everybody is discussing instead of phones here. Gadget, however? How does my HD2 define my point of view on jailbreaking?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fa7my:
"Winning OS" isn't the aim of this chart, it is just there to give you a wider view of all the do-and-don't of each OS..

Still if you think the chart is useless, at least you should appreciate the effort done by Seethos to produce it.. it's your point of view and I respect it. but if you don't like what's in the chart, just ignore it.. no one forced you to comment here..

+1

I didn't mean to use Gadget with the typical meaning.. I meant Smartphones.

I dont really understand what you mean here...
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Not including the FULL facts on what a device can do is as good as lies.

We mustn't expect users to have the expertice to do their own programming or hacking, but we surely should let users be aware if if the do a one click operation then the device could those things he needs to do. Unless one is so afraid of the truth, or hate Apple so much that the sense of judgement has been impaired.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
The aim of this chart, and OP's presence in the WP7 forum is promoting Android with all possible means. So it's Google that should appreciate his efforts, not me. I'll certainly ignore the chart in that I won't use it for anything, but of course I won't ignore it in that I'll be taking a look whenever I'll feel curious enough.

You said, "it depends on your point of view to the gadget you are using..". I'm asking for clarification - what does the gadget I'm using have to do with it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Is the OP a google employee I wonder. Or from HTC?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Exactly.

Even if some people feel a strange need to shout out insults everytime they see the word "Android".

Methods that are not intended/allowed by the manufacturer are not included. Period. Marking that as "lies" is just pathetic and ignorant.

No, I am comparing the FULL POTENTIAL that is available WITHOUT hacking. That's what I am doing.

And I will NOT include anything into the chart that requires hacking or the breach of any license agreements PERIOD.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Do you even realize that this statement is self contradictory? It is never full if you absolutely refuse to perform a one click operation.

Again, I don't hack. Don't have the expertise to do any hacking. The jailbreak team does that. I only do a one click operation. Big difference bewteen user of a hack and hacking. Big difference between installing a program versus programming.

Of course you won't want people to know the full truth, your biased intention is felt keenly.

Suddenly you're out of excuse and rely on your wish to be a good boy who wants to honor the licensing agreement. If you know anything at all, you would have known that the problem is only when your phone is under warranty and if you send your phone in for repair without doing another one click operation to undo the jailbreak. Again is your reason based on some kind of 'principle'?

Sometimes I don't know how to talk with people so used to using pirated software and music and then suddenly becoming defender of Apple's licencing agreement.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
It's a "one click operation" that is not allowed by the manufacturer and a breach of the EULA and therefore will NOT be included.

This is a final decision. End of discussion.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fa7my:
as I've already said before, these are the FULL facts.. the full facts about the out-of-the-box abilities of each OS.. not the hacked abilities.. we are not comparing the "Potential" of each OS, it is just plain facts.. you can call them the "specs" of each OS.. I agree though that a jailbroken iPhone is a very capable device..

We have to be fair.. eaglesteve is also promoting (maybe "promoting" is the wrong word here) Jailbroken iPhone.. I have to admit he posted some things I never thought were possible on the iPhone.. likewise Seethos posted what he knew about the Android OS with its capabilities..

Still no one is forcing anyone to use any OS.. if someone thinks the "Blah" OS is the best OS ever.. that's his opinion.. no one can argue with him if he thinks that the best OS that suits him..

maybe I miswrote it.. I was just assuring that each person have his own point of view of what suits him.. (Just ignore my previous post :D)
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Wisely spoken.

Just one correction, I am not comparing out of the box functionality, I am comparing what is possible WITHOUT hacking. And this is 100% objective, there's NO opinion at all in the chart.

There's just one simple rule that I'm not discussing: No hacking. It doesn't matter whether it's simple or complicated, if it's not allowed, it will not be included.

As for weighing in on the facts stated in the chart and stating one's opinion: No one is forcing anyone to use anything. Everyone is free to state his opinion. Insulting people because you don't agree with their opinion is moronic. If for some weird reason you can't read the word "Android" without totally freaking out, maybe you shouldn't read through any forum that is related to mobile operating systems.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Yes he is. People often come to "vs." threads to promote things they like. So what? If they don't exaggerate, lie, hide true facts and don't stipulate silly "principles" that have no rational justification that's fine. Having principles is also fine, BTW, when they aren't proclaimed as absolute truths.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
So you crawled back into the light. Nice self-criticism, by the way.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
I couldn't stop laughing at claim of objectivity when Android market place is shown to trash Apple's. Despite the obvious fragmentation, problems of protected applcations gone missing, and hell you can't even find TomTom there.

I try to help others with facts. It's up to them to decide which is the best phone for them. I did the sane with winmo when it was the best platform. Go check my older posts. Now I'm considering HTC supersonic because I want better hardware than 3gs. If you see that I'm an Apple promoter I can't help it. I don't use Mac. Only use PC. iPhone was a very recent experience having been MS supporter previously.