yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
If you spend 200$ on a phone and expect it to be as good as a 800$ phone, it really is your own fault.

And again, if fragmentation becomes an issue, Google can easily fix it. And they will. They're not Microsoft. Microsoft did nothing to make its OS competitive. They could easily have fixed all the issues, but they didn't. Google will do it. They're not Microsoft.

As long as Google stand behind their OS and don't neglect it like Microsoft did with Windows Mobile, Android won't run into any trouble. It's all just a matter of support.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
The great thing about WP7 is that it solves all these problems. But since the system is locked down EVEN WORSE than iPhone this is no sollution. So what is the sollution in your opinion? IMO Windows mobile like we knew it could fix all these problem by Microsoft throwing their requirements on the OEMs. They could also have XNA and Silverlight and everything on top of it and they still could do a start screen with everything at your finger touch! But why the heck locking everything down? This is really the only (but absolutely NO-GO) compaint I have towards WP7! This and lack of SD cards!
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
You nailed it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gullum:
well if I buy a 200$ device I expect it to work as advertised not as a 800$

what is a car worth if it has lots horsepower but no seats, manufacture (Google) promises they'll make them later but they wont fit to you car. Google is not God Apple is not God Microsoft is not God I'm God.

I did not say in my post that Android was an iPhone clone what I said was it looks (design) like a clone in places.

Yes they fix stuff but you need to pay another 800$ for a new phone with a newer version of Android or hope for som cooked rom update you your phone
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Yeah, tell this to everyone who used WM in pre-HD2 era and think it's a very slow OS. That's why Daimler doesn't use the name Mercedes with Smart for Two.

In the locked down state I won't use it for sure. Yet the iPhone is an indication that the lockdown can be hacked around, and a whole new world of opportunities may emerge. There's hardly anything that WM can do that's not available on a jailbroken iPhone. Heck, even switching between running apps is done better there than on WM. And you can still enjoy the benefits of a locked down consumer device as a geek because it's still stable and has lots of apps and accessories and what not. Now, there are aspects where WP7 is better than the iPhone - you still get different form factors, keyboard for those who need it, we know that there's still WinAPI there, you also get great dev tools for making UI stuff, you get a Marketplace that's miles better than competition (you can return what you buy plus you get Try button), you get hardware task switcher (the Back button), removable battery, soft touch plastic, cameras with flash, unparalleled video codec support out of the box. It's better than Android in that you get real OTA updates that don't depend on the OEM, drivers made by the OS maker, 100% compatibility between devices, great dev tools, C# vs Java, stuff like that.

So the only three real questions for me are: what will Apple offer in June, when will copy/paste be available, and how and when will jailbreaking be done.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
No they won't because they're not Microsoft. They just can't because the whole idea on which Android is built is openness. OEMs and operators and their dog can mess with the OS as they wish, that's the whole point.

And that's another thing where the fact that Google isn't Microsoft works against Android. The thing is, Google doesn't really care. They don't make money on this thing directly, it's not a life or death situation for them. All they need is to have devices out there so that people use their services and want those services on other platforms, too. And yes, Google abandons products as well. They try everything and, as Schmidt put it, "if a spy doesn't return it's a good thing - the army knows not to go there" (not an literal quote, sorry).
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
Well I guess with a hacked OS you might not be able to get OTA updates, and if you do then you might need to hack it again after each update. At least that's a possible scenario to consider. And about the native API: here you need an implementation in your Silverlight SDK or PInvoke and not only the possibility to import coredll functions. But I doubt you'd get PInvoke because MS said that OEMs receive only LIMITED access to native API. So you probably can't have the combination of WP7 UI and native API so easily. And that's the point IMO. Besides that I'm still missing a basic PHONE button on WP7 phones. Microsoft said it's only a phone not PC so why'd you need it in the first place!? :eek:
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
You missed the point.

1) No, OEMs can not mess around with Android as they wish, if Google doesn't want them to. The base system may be open, but the name Android still belongs to Google and the most important applications on Android belong to Google as well. If Google doesn't allow OEMs to use the name Android and the Google software, unless they meet certain requirements, the problem is solved. Cheap phones may still run Android, but it's the same as with Smart vs. Mercedes then: People will know only phones with "Google Android" written on them are good ones.

2) Google does care. Predictions are that Android will overtake iPhone OS by the end of 2010. Google is not going to throw away that opportunity. The will not abandon Android, it's their second most important project now. They're betting the whole company on their mobile efforts.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
All I can say to this (and the native API issue, and all others) - we'll need to wait and see how it'll work. It may be a pain in the neck or may be fairly easy. I don't know. MS knows but won't tell.

That's what they do. Just compare Droid and Tatoo.

No they're not. Sure they won't miss the opportunity, but they won't die for it. And they're not disciplined and focused enough to dominate there.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
A 200$ Android phone works like 200$. You can't just buy a 200$ phone and think it's as good as an iPhone or Nexus One, just because it has written "Android" on it.

On the other hand, I have a 200$ Android phone here, and it will replace my HD2 for a while, until I get the HTC Desire. Yes, I have a better experience with that 200$ Android phone than with my HD2.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Right now: Yes, that's what they do. And I don't see how that is bad for Android. Asi I said: I have a better experience with my 200$ Samsung Galaxy than with my HD2.

There's two sides:

1) People may not be satisfied with their 200$ Android phones.

2) More phones will run Android, which will raise awareness, and many people will know their phone cost only 200$ and it will eventually exceed their expectations.

Right now, Google seems to think 2) is the one that's more important. If they find out that 1) becomes a problem for them, they can simply stop it.

No problem there. The only problem you have is that for some reason you hate Android, or Google. But it's not going to be another Windows Mobile, no matter how much you wish it will be.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gullum:
you don't seam to read what I write I quote myself again

I did not say I expected it to be like an iPhone or Nexus One I expect it to run whats on it good that all. and iPhone is doing that Wm7 will do that a nokia 1208 is doing that. I haven't used android phones just used adnroid on WM phones. but what I've heard and read is that far from all android phones are doing it and also far form all wm phones are doing it.

I know Android is getting better all the time and so are the devices but an android phone with no OEM UI or apps should run ok, right? but thats not the fact in some cases.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
See, I'm judging it by what they're doing and what they say and what they do in other areas. You're judging it by what they theoretically can do because you believe they can and will. You may turn out to be right, and I may be completely wrong, but so far your argumentation is based on that leap of faith that you make. Which is certainly OK, we're not on a Climate Change Panel here.

It would definitely help your credibility if you didn't make ridiculous statements about Samsung Galaxy being superior to HD2. If you care about your credibility, that is, which is totally up to you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Oh, I understood you well...

But:

- You can't know whether WP7 phones will work as expected.

- What you say is not only true for Android and WM. Take the Nokia N97: That was even a pretty expensive phone and didn't work well.

If Nokia, despite that they developed the phone AND the OS, couldn't make their phone work well, how can you expect all WP7 phones to work well?

They won't. There's always OEMs that mess up. Maybe it's easier to mess up Android than WP7, but the example of Nokia shows you that you can not even be sure that a phone works as expected, when the OS is developed by the phone maker.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Vangrieg, I'm sorry to say that, but that last post of yours is quite ridiculous.

No, I'm not judging by what they theoretically can do. If you read my post again, you may eventually understand that.

There are two sides. Google wants to have their software and ads on as many devices as possible, thus they want Android to run on as many devices as possible, including 200$ phones. As a matter of fact, this has both advantages and disadvantages:

Disadvantage: People might buy 200$ phones and blame Android when they don't work.

Advantage: People might buy 200$ phones and find that they exceed their expectations because of Android. Plus, if it runs on more phones, Google can reach more people and people will be more aware of Android.

Google have to weigh the advantages against the disadvantages. Right now, they think that it's better when it runs on more devices.

Your mistake is to think that Android running on cheap devices only has disadvantages for the OS. This is not true.

Fact is, Android is actively developed and supported. That's the difference to WM and the reason why Android will not go away anytime soon.

Maybe they will stop supporting it in five years, but who cares? Five years is an eternity in the mobile space and till then, a lot can happen. iPhone OS may become open and support multitasking, Palm may die or overtake the whole market, Windows Phone 8 may bring back all the features of Windows Mobile... whatever happens, it really doesn't matter now, unless you're someone who only buys a phone every five years.

Usually, people buy a new phone every two years, some, like many on this forum, every year or even twice a year. Android will not go away within that time. And neither iPhone OS nor WP7S will offer gain significant advantages over Android within that time (in fact, they need to catch up first). Right now, Android is a safe bet.

I did not say that the Galaxy is superior. You are the one making ridiculous statements because you claim I said that.

I only say that I personally enjoy it more than the HD2.

It would help your credibility if you didn't twist other people's words.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You are absolutely right in that OEMs have infinite opportunities to muck up anything. However, as you yourself confirm, it's much more difficult to muck up WP7 than Android. And, in addition to that, because WP7 firmware on devices will be pretty much unmodified by OEMs, you will at least get the opportunity to get updates and fixes and additions to the OS from the maker, which, in the case of Android, proves to be almost as difficult as in the case of WM. And will be even more difficult as more versions and more variety hits the market.

You are right, and I totally agree, that we don't know how WP7 will work. It can turn out to be complete crap. I myself have stated more than once that I'm not going to buy it until some of the issues are resolved, and I won't buy it either way if it can't be jailbroken without tethering and other PITA stuff.

I just don't see Android as the answer to my problems. With all my attachment to WM and appreciation of the good things in it, I'm ready to move on. And if I do the switch, I don't want to see the same crap in my new device.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Yes you are. You were saying that Google will stop allowing OEMs to mess with the OS if they see that it's becoming a problem. That's what I'm referring to.

Re Android going away, I never said it would. It won't have the fate of WM simply because Google is set to lose money on it from the very beginning, and it's hard to "fail" with such an approach. It will be the next WM in terms of problems though, that's what I'm saying. And it alreay is, in many aspects. It's here to stay though, no doubt about it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
I don't know why you think Google wants to lose money. Do you think they're stupid?

Google is actively developing and supporting Android. They will do anything that's necessary to make it a success.

And that's exactly why it won't become another WM, at least not within a time frame that matters.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gullum:
The only way to be sure to get a phone that works is to by a landline phone with no extra futures. But judging nokia one phone mistake ( there are some other flops) out of their 100's is not making any point in this. the point I'm trying to make is that when you have set some standard that need to be followed by all how manufacture phones with your OS is more likely to work.

Nokia, Apple, Sonyerisksson and most other have done this by making phone that work with hardware and software... what we have seen with WM and Android is that the manufactures have been quite free to put what ever hardware they want in it. so therefore there is no granite is will run as it should.

This is a very strong point for WM7 but the lockdown is only a bad thing for us who like to be able to mess around with rom cooking and such.

So from a business point of wive it's a clever move for MS an guess what point of wive is important to them?

MS will sell more phone if their reputation will be that they work. Not needs some XDA developer making hard spl so cooks can fix what HTC, Samsung, Sony Ericksson or LG messed up.

Android no matter what Google come up with will only be as good as what the OEM puts on the phone.

This also applies to computers MS makes Windows 7 but the computer you buy will only be as good as the hardware and blotware the OEM puts in. You buy a iMac you'll get hardware and software that runs well with that particular setup. ok I might have gone a bit of track.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Sure, but as I said, there are two sides. Getting it on as many devices as possible vs. making it as hard as possible to mess up.

From the PC world, you can see that the first approach was more successful. Apple computers still have the reputation that the "just work", but nevertheless, more than 90% of people buy Windows PCs.

With WP7S, Microsoft is taking an approach between Apple's approach of making it "just work" and Google's approach on getting it on as many devices as possible.

Which one will be the most successful? You can't know that now. But Android market share may overtake the iPhone's within one year, so you can't say that the "as many devices as possible" approach does not work. Especially for Google, who rely on getting their ads to as many people as possible.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Hmm, no, I don't hate either Google or Android. I will admit I'm biased though. I don't like recent Google's actions in various nascent markets because they're doing lots of nervous knee-jerk ill-though of actions that are quite disruptive without bringing sufficient value to the playground to justify the killings they do, and without being committed enough to the products themselves - for them, everything is yet another hook to their services. Being the moneybag as they are these days, they're a lot like a bear in a china shop. I'm also quite sympathetical of Microsoft because I see that they are close to striking some right balances between being managed, focused and disciplined and at the same time make some great products that not only do the job but also have the ability to excite some. Both companies are undergoing serious transformations as you can judge by various accounts, and I wish them both the best of luck, seriously, I find them both admirable cases of entrepreneurship, and thinking how they (with some others of course) changed our daily lives boggles my mind. But while I think that Microsoft is on the right path, Google needs a couple of their own Vistas and PlaysForSures to make a few corrections to what and how they do.

However, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to buy a Google product just because I don't like their strategy! When I started using WM, I hated MS with almost a passion (mainly because of rather crappy Windows experience, and because of what they did to the web). In my heart, I wished Symbian all the success in the world but I just couldn't believe that Nokia would be capable of leading the industry on the basis of their platform. So I figured that WM would be a much more attractive OS for me. And I was right. No matter what I think and how I valuate MSFT and GOOG and AAPL, I still buy products that suit me best, although of course my biases affect my decisions when "other things are equal". I'm a normal person.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
At least we agree here! :D

Symbian^3 looks GREAT.

I just fear Nokia can't figure out how to get developers interested :( And that despite they have the greatest market share... strange. Maybe that problem will be solved when WP7S apps run on Symbian. :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
A year ago WM had twice the market share of the iPhone but it was quite clear that they were in terrible shape. I agree that even with all its drawbacks the quick death was more due to the fact that MS abandoned it, OEMs knew it and used Android to compensate for lack of competitive software. Yet one or two good or bad years aren't an indicator of anything. I don't know what will happen three years from now, this could be a world with a totally different iPhone, WP8 and Android 5.0, and maybe even Sony will rise from ashes. WM died in just three years. What I do know is that Google needs to change a lot of things in how they approach the market.

Re getting ads - that's spot on. But I tend to think about it this way: in principle, Google doesn't care where the ads come from - Android, iPhone or Windows. They just need to be sure they do come. One may argue that being a default search engine costs tens of millions of dollars, and that's true, but maintaining a mobile OS cost them some 150 million already, as far as I can see. So why bother with making an OS? Well, because when it's all Apple and MS Google can't be sure they won't be kicked out tomorrow. They need a strong bargaining position and their own source of site visits. They need you and me to either use their device or want their apps on whatever platform we use. Sure, if they had 100% market share that would be cool, but it just ain't gonna happen. When competition gets tough, it'll be a matter of balancing resources with outcome. Their execs love saying how they slash resources by half whenever it feels like they have allocated just enough. You can actually see it in their products how they have this insanely rapid development in the beginning and the products then stay in betas forever. Because they have achieved the goal. So I have very serious doubts that they'll be all that hardcore in terms of competing with everyone when times get tough. Their hallmark hatred of Microsoft may help, of course, but they are rational enough not to go into extremes, I think. If that's what's happening, we'll have Goggles on all platforms, and they'll be leveraging Android for that. But they won't shed blood on the barricades for it. Microsoft may, and Apple certainly will.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I think we agree on many more things than it seems because of the opposite conclusions we have made. :)

Re Nokia, it's one thing that very few companies can do right - partnerships, and Nokia isn't one of them. They coudln't bring devs on board, they lost Motorola and SE, they can't get into agreement with US operators apparently. It's a very difficult art and a rare skill in the world of big biz. Apple can't do it either, but they found a great window of opportunity (almost accidentally and against their will) and used it with their appstore.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
True :)

...
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
I won't say it's impossible that Google abandon Android. But right now, that doesn't matter. If you buy an (expensive) Android phone now, you can be sure that it's supported (not only by Google, but more importantly by third party developers) at least until you buy your next phone. Till then, a lot can happen - you don't have to stay with Android forever if you buy an Android phone once: If WP7S becomes open or gets jailbroken without bad consequences, I'll happily switch from Android to WP7S. After all, I much prefer Microsoft over Google ;)

Yes, I don't like Google, but right now, there's just no alternative to Android. WM6.5 is doomed, the iPhone OS is locked down and lacking, same for WP7S, which is not even available, Symbian and webOS have no dev support... I just see no alternative.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Dukenukemx:
And that is why Android will win.

I'm not biased in anyway towards Google. I own a 2 Windows Mobile phones, have a Apple Mac laptop, and my desktop PCs are custom built running Windows 7.

Facts are facts. Android is open, iphone & Phone7 isn't. You can probably continue to jail break them, but you'll have to constantly battle them to do it. Developers don't have that option, and if Mozilla won't make FireFox for Phone7, then all the hacking in the world won't make it suddenly appear.

Fact - iPhone & Phone7 won't have alternative web browsers.

Fact - iPhone & Phone7 won't have SD card slots.

Fact - iPhone & PHone7 will have totalitarian control over what can and cannot be sold on their market.

I wouldn't hold my breath to see if Microsoft and Apple change their minds.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Upon closer investigation, I found iPhone OS much more capable (after jailbreaking) then I could possibly imagine. I have more complaints about hardware, actually, and the iTunes.

WP7 has disappointed me greatly, but the only critical problem I see personally is lack of copy/paste, I could live for a while with other shortcomings I think, and I'm pretty sure they'll be removed by jailbreaking as well. It also have the benefit of being something quite new, and I happen to be one of those who love the UI (something that I can't force myself to like about Android). So I'm not in a rush. Maybe this could be different if I really saw an Android device that would overshadow HD2 in my eyes, but neither Desire nor Nexus cut it. Evo is CDMA, and somehow I don't have this impetus of wanting it which I had with HD2.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
No, that's not a real browser.

Internal memory is no SD card.

Android doesn't need that. No cat and mouse game, no banning of developers who distribute their stuff outside the Marketplace, no banning of users who jailbreak their phones from updates and services like XBox Live.

That, of course, is bull****. It didn't stop hundreds of fart apps, but it did stop lots of quality, useful applications.

Why don't you go to China or Iran? The governments there will happily defend you against all the evil stuff...