yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
You're right phone OS must be compared like they are, not after reverse engineering and hacking/rooting/jailbreaking/hspling. But not all Android devices are locked (there's not only HTC), that's why it's right to speak about the things that require root access.

On the other side, many of the things we've done with WM required some kind of hacking as well, they've just become "normal" after all the time that we sometimes forget about that fact.

Depending on what exactly you want to customize, Android and WM both offer lots of possibilities. Android is of open nature, but often artificially locked by manufacturers, whereas WM, while being mostly closed source, offers lots of possibilities via the registry and full file system acces even to system files.

With regard to the "sandboxing": While applications on WP7 and iPhone are completely separated, Android applications actually have a lot more freedom through many APIs that are just not available on other platforms. Just because apps are sandboxed doesn't mean they can't interact with the system and each other. This is actually very possible on Android - but not on WP7 and iPhone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Must? Is there a law or something? If I wanted to use an iPhone, I'd use it jailbroken. Therefore, I'm only interested in a jailbroken iPhone. What do I care about limitations without jailbreaking?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
In a nutshell, no native coding means no great "real" applications - browsers, media players etc. So if you don't get xvid support in WP7 from Microsoft you won't get it from third parties either.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
ooolright... seems like I'm out of the mobile world as fast as I got into it. I guess I'm continuing developing for 6.5.x for a while but as soon as the general interest on this board is gone, I'm probably gone as well.
[Windows Phone 7 General] burnblue:
I was not bothered by any of the previous rumors.. they had my money without old-style multitasking or native coding.

But the lack of file-system access and expandable card storage makes NO sense, has NO excuse, and I have to agree is a complete fail. My phone is as much of a portable hard drive as it is whatever else it is.

Microsoft didn't have to do this. It's still WinCE, they had to do actual work to lock off this functionality.. and it wouldn't take any work for them to enable.

What am I going to do a year later when the price of storage has dropped 75%? What if I get bored of 8GB and want 32 GB? I can't just buy a new device. Am I really going to need to go to MyPhone to get documents off my phone? Waitaminute, what about all those miscellaneous files that don't fit the regularly synced filetypes? This is FAIL!

And dammit, Android was never an option for me. Not that Linuxy OS, I want a Zune Pass. But Microsoft has overreached with the hardware restrictions.
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
i could have sworn i seen something that said that there will be other browsers you just cant set them as default but not 100% on that ill look for a link if it exist, but there is divx support i think from this it looks like it http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff462087(VS.92).aspx

& also from this

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2010/mar10/03-15Mix10Day1PR.mspx

when they say this(under), does that mean that there will let you dev for hardware accel video apps or am i way off base & they just mean u can have access to the zune player? & also thanks for the explanation

End-to-End Application Development Platform for Windows Phone 7 Series

During the keynote, Microsoft provided the first deep dive into Windows Phone 7 Series application development. By combining Silverlight features for rich application development and the XNA Framework for games, Windows Phone 7 Series empowers millions of developers and designers to build visually stunning and immersive applications and games — one of the industry’s most profitable mobile application categories — while taking advantage of device-specific capabilities. Specifically, developers will be able to take advantage of the following features:

•

Accelerometer, an intuitive control that responds to motion

•

A Microsoft Location Service to provide developers with a single point of reference to acquire location information

•

Microsoft Notification Service for pushing information to the phone, regardless of whether or not an application is running

•

Hardware-accelerated video with digital rights management (DRM)

edit:nvm about the browser thing i must have dreamt it up lol
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
ok here is what i found on browser

To make up for the lack of sideloading, Microsoft has promised radical transparency for the app submission process to their marketplace. Good news: Microsoft has no problem with competing web browsers, email clients, map clients, and the like. They're all welcome. The bummer is that it doesn't appear right now that you'll be able to change your 'default' apps - for example, tapping on an address in email wouldn't be able to be set to open Google Maps

http://www.wmexperts.com/wp7s-apps-...feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wmexperts+(WMExperts)

so does that mean that they will give certain dev access to native coding? or that with the managed code you will be able to do more then before when it comes to other managed code??
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Sure they have support for other browsers - they have the "browser control". It means that you can take IE engine and wrap it into a different UI. So you can make it look somewhat different. However, IE doesn't have text wrapping, and you won't be able to change that with this approach, for example. So no "real" browsers here, just chromes for the built-in engine.

Sure they have hardware accelerated video (and their format support is the best of all mobile platforms, BTW, so it's great news), and you can use the built-in media controls, but that's the same thing as with the browsers - your player will only support the formats that are built in. There's no AC3 support, so you can't watch an .mkv file with Dolby Digital soundtrack, and no CorePlayer for you to compensate for this.
[Windows Phone 7 General] dally:
Hi

About multitasking in WP7.

I downloaded Windows Phone Developer Tools CTP and made two simple applications which doing the same thing, in sub-thread every second increases one integer variable and shows its value on screen, so you see how many seconds ago you started application. And my observations is:

1. If you quit application with "back" key, then system finally close application

2. If you quit application with "windows" key, you can back to the same, running in background (counter increased in background) instance with back key or by running this app again from home screen.

So, if it's not multitasking then what it is?
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
o ok i see, not to mad about the browser as long as IE is the sh*t, even tho i was really looking forward to fennec even tho the current betas suck

But with the players i hope there is a way around that:( hate being limited on formats for video, but lets hope they open it up some

idk what it is but im not made about it, multitask or not the end result is the same so if its gonna help my battery last longer im all for it cuz my touch pro was horrible & the tp2 is just ok on a good day
[Windows Phone 7 General] chalid:
gj microsoft :p
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
PICTURE OF THE YEAR!!!!

Thanks a lot!!!
[Windows Phone 7 General] gpsfreeway:
I totally agrees. And one additional thing is the ugly UI, which is worse than HTC Manila.
[Windows Phone 7 General] negromnia90:
WP7 is a big **** for me...

at most I could try it with a dualboot WM6.5-WP7 ...

Is better if come out Android for the HD2 and trialboot 6.5-7-android ...

ahahahahahah

:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] Seg2009:
You can also see it coming as with the iPhone. There will be an initial size eg.8gb then when ppl have been suckered in to buy the phone, a larger sized on will come out, eg. 16gb. I would imagine the storage sizes to be higher, but you get the picture.
[Windows Phone 7 General] landslide:
Sounds like a bug... :P
[Windows Phone 7 General] landslide:
WM is far from a PC UI... Yes the controls are derived from the desktop, and yes earlier incarnations like HPC and PalmPC were very close to the desktop... But it evolved over the years... most developers unfortunately didn't.

The fail IMHO is lack of Touch in the UI, Microsoft didn't handle the transition from stylus input to finger centric input very well at all. They were more worried about how to handle entry level 'candy phones' - aka. Windows Mobile Standard.

One thing I despise in Windows Mobile applications are horizontal scrollbars on lists (something I learnt to remove in my CE applications back in 2000). It is one of things iPhone got right from the onset. Another seemingly trivial example is disabling the input with simple a proximity sensor when you put the phone to your ear - pure genius. I much prefer a feature like this than worrying about w&nky front facing 3G video call camera or *shudder* copy and paste ;P
[Windows Phone 7 General] nitr@m:
Know what you mean. All these old people at work ask me "how do I do this - how do I get email........ " and the list goes on. I just ask them, "You have the manual AND the phone and you ask me, who doesn't have either one, go and RTFM"

I think my options will stop at the htc HD2 or htc Desire. Will what happens with wm7 in the long run.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gprimr1:
I am really amazed at how many of the same mistakes Microsoft made with Windows Vista, it's making with Windows Phone 7.

Microsoft has had some great ideas with the phone, such as having standard screen sizes (makes it easier for developers) and developing an app store. I'm hopeful the app store will lead to more "official" apps.

Also the graphics and hardware requirements are nice. I am happy they are requiring an LED flash in addition to a camera.

It does seem to support a form of multi-tasking.

What really upsets me is the SD card. I am amazed that the SD card makers didn't use their hand to influence Microsoft. That is a huge loss of revenue.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rdude:
I think there was a problem with the original picture actually. Here, I fixed it. (see attached, can't embed image directly as my account hasn't been verified yet)
[Windows Phone 7 General] pupakota:
yeah, funny, yeah...how FUNNY.

But maybe it is time to realize that they will earn milions, and YOU will fix it for 15 $ donations, letting them earn another millions, my dear community.

i am amazed you cannot see what's going on. amazing.

my advice for ya:

-----

(topic unsuscribed, won't bother ya anymoar)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Sorry but it is you that doesn't see what's going on. They will earn billions, not millions. That's like a thousand times more. Sorry about being sarcastic, but really, what's wrong with it? You think that xda devs should earn millions and MS should live off $15 donations or what?
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
you for your own purpose of course can do that. However, I look from the perspective as Software developer, and therefore I want my apps to be able to run on any phone no matter if it comes with factory defaults or hacked up beyond imagination.... So I'm also looking for an OS that allows the greatest possibilites and this simply is (was) Windows Mobile.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Agree, RAMMANN.

@vangrieg Yes, there is a law, or at least license agreements.

And did I mention buying something because it's good if you hack it to pieces is *stupid*? Yes, it is. That's like all the HD2 buyers who only bought it, because they thought they would get WP7. LOL they got nothing and that's what they deserve for being stupid. :D

I hope some day Apple removes access to the AppStore and iTunes for all the jailbroken iPhones (like MS does with the XBox) - that will be a funny day when all the jailbroken iPhone users realize only a piece of junk is what's left of their beloved Jesus phones.

Anyway, Windows Mobile and Android are powerful and customizable out of the box and that's what counts. iPhone and WP7? Not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Ahh, well I meant without jailbreaking. ;-)

I agree 100%. I will say, though, that on a bumpy road, small UI elements show their weakness, if you browse the web in the passenger seat, like I do. :-)

Intersting... Have the screen sensitive to both? You'd get the best of both worlds! I like that idea.

I like a little shaded/rounded eye candy, personally, but never at the expense of functionality. And I agree that the ginormous fonts are awkward. They look prety good in the hub motif, where you have a background with a large font that goes off the screen to hint that there is more to the screen. I like that. But the actionable items are HUGE. The Outlook screens look terrible to me. You get like four emails to fit on the screen. Man... As many emails as I get, it would be like looking through a pinhole into my inbox. My eyesight is pretty good, can I haz small fontz pleez?

I refuse! If the future is less functional than the present, then I won't embrace it. I'm not a ludite by any stretch. I love gadgets. But at the same time, I want them to do more than they previously did, and more than the manufacturer could foresee. That's the whole point of third party software and tweaking. With the restrictiveness of WP7 (et al) you just don't get that yet. It's MS's way, or the highway.

And you know what? That would be fine, if MS put even a modicrum of emphasis on latest builds of WM6.5 (the latest version of which is JUST finding its way onto shelves now). They say they will "support" it as long as there is a market, but it's all very vague, which scares some vendors and consumers away from WM6.5. If they just set down some firm committments, like... WP7 is the consumer device of the future, and WM6.5 is the business device for three more years, and two more service packs (or whatever) before we unify the platforms (think Win98/Win2000 leading to WinXP), then I think so many would feel better about their committment to the both platforms. And in that time, they could iron our backward compatibility issues, sandbox issues, the API, unmanaged code support, and more...

But nope! No such luck.

BTW, the MSDN site for WP7 has an FAQ for development and one of the entries discusses the need for a database system. they have no plans to move SQL CE at this time and recommend devleoping for WM6.5 instead. This is what I'm talking about. If you are developing a new DB intensive product and have no history. Which are you going to choose? WM6.5 which will be supported 'as long as the industry wants it' and no upgrade path to WP7, or Android whose committment from Google is open-ended, has MySQL ready to go, and is on an increasingly mature and stable platform?
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I'm not sure. Most custom ROMs I've seen are based on an OEM ROM from an existing phone, with bits and pieces extracted, tweaked, modified, and copied back and forth. Additionally, NO phone will flash a custom ROM without it being 'hacked.' That's what HardSPL does. It bypasses the protection scheme used to make sure only OEM ROMs can be flashed to your phone.

You are right that Android is sandboxed. But bypassing the sandbox is simple and time is proving that Google is turning a relatively blind eye to the practice (same as MS with custom ROMs and so on). We don't know this about WP7 yet. It could go either way.

Still, Android's sandboxed managed code is far more "open" than WP7. For example, there's a commonly accessible file system (ie, all apps have access to the same files). My kingdom for a common file system on WP7. In addition, there are numerous ways to leverage IPC on Android. On WP7 there is none yet, that I can see. You might be able to leverage the cloud to do some IPC, but oh my god... Talk about overkill. I have to send data to the cloud so that I can talk to another process on the same device??? LOL. And how can we forget services? There is absolutely no way to have an 'always on' service in WP7 that launches at device startup. In Android, it's a cinch.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, it depends on what kind of developer you are. If you're in for the money, you can make fart apps or whatever. If you're a hacker than you don't necessarily care. Plus, for the iPhone there are places like Cydia where you can sell apps as well. If you do something serious and lockdowns prevent you from it, you choose another platform. There are many kinds of developers.

Come on, posting SYS and OEM packages is a copyright infringement, and cooking ROMs is as well.

I never said anything about buying something because it's good if I hack it. What I'm saying is this: I need a device that does a number of things well and satisfies my needs. I may or may not need to hack it for this purpose. If I don't need to hack it that's obviously a plus. However, a need to hack it isn't that big of an obstacle for me. I have a router with custom firmware, I hacked my network digital player and my NAS, and they work better for because of this. When I bought those devices I knew I'd have hack them. It's not that big of a deal really.

That's true. iPhone is powerful after hacking. So what? If I liked iPhone's hardware I'd buy it and jailbreak. Would it be better if I didn't have to? Yes. So what? It's just one drawback in its list of pros and cons. I don't need to hack Android? Well, it depends on the device and on what I need from it, but if I don't then it's a benefit. In it's own list of pros and cons. Just one of them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Did I say that is okay? Everyone can hack and steal and do whatever he wants, nevertheless that doesn't make copyright infringement, stealing, hacking etc. legal. Somebody will work against you, whether that's the government, or Apple, or anyone else.

If you're a developer selling stuff on Cydia, Apple can take away all your work with a fingersnap. And if you bought your iPhone because you can hack it, Apple can make it useless with a fingersnap.

And I hope some day they will do it, so that all the morons who think it's not a big deal will realize. Because we are *not* talking about just another point on the pro/con list!

You can put it like you want, but truth is buying a device that sucks unless you hack it is *stupid*.

And that's the stupid thing. As I said, I'm hoping Apple removes access to the AppStore and iTunes for jailbroken iPhones - then people like you will realize hacking *is* a big deal.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Except that every device out there sucks in one way or another. Buying a device that sucks because you don't need to hack it is equally stupid.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Errr - no.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
I believe the X200 Tablet has two separate digitizers layered on top of each other, one for finger input (2 points max I think) and the other for pen. The pen digitizer is not a resistive layer however, it only detects input from the specialized Wacom pen that comes with the laptop. So no nailing I don't think, however the pen has many advantages over the plastic stick stylus.

The pen has two sides, the tip, and the eraser, just like any mechanical pencil. The digitizer can sense the orientation of the pen and relay this information to pen aware applications. This is often used of course as a convenient way to switch from draw to erase modes, but can be configured for other tasks.

Both tip and eraser are spring loaded, a nice feature that gives you more control and natural feedback when applying more pressure to the screen.

Also the pen usually comes with a button on its side, that can be configured to send right or left mouse clicks, and perform software specific tasks.

And last but not least, the digitizer senses the proximity of the pen before it actually touches the screen. This is great for controlling a mouse pointer as you need only make contact with the screen to simulate a mouse click (or even better, no need to make contact at all if the pen button is configured to send a left click).

There are other attributes that are detected by the digitizer, such as pen tilt and rotation. These are most often used by artistic software to simulate things such as paint brush strokes. I remember once using this paint brush simulation application designed specifically for use with a Wacom pen; there was a great number of brush and paint options that could be combined all which subtly and realistically changed the way that the brush stroke was applied to the screen as then pen was moved about its surface.

Much of this is probably overkill for a phone with limited screen space, but the technology has a great deal of potential and is very precise and at least on the Lenovo X200 works very well right along side regular multi touch.

If you are curious at all Wacom produces a mini pen/multi-touch tablet (sans screen of course) that can be hooked up to a computer for about $100. Not sure how useful it is if you are not a digital artist, but it is lots of fun.

Really, there are probably many other ways to combine multi touch input with a stylus input or perhaps even a true resistive layer. I'd love to see HTC or any other phone manufacture try, but I have doubts as to whether this will ever happen. The HD2 would have been a perfect candidate for something like this but alas, the capacitive screen was all we got. There's always those metal tipped styluses but for whatever reason they always seem to be very bulky and besides, without the built in stylus slot, it is just not quite the same.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Capacitive touchreen + acive digitizer makes a lot of sense for tablets. You get multitouch and pressure-less touch for fingers and at the same time you get very high precision and pressure sensitivity for the digitizer (which means it's like writing on real paper).

I guess it's hard to implement (and expensive) on smartphones, though.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
Perhaps the added cost is the main reason we do not see multitouch + stylus phones on the market. If there was a demand, as there is for hardware keyboards, they would be produced.

It as a shame then that even most ardent WinMo users seem content to let the stylus disappear in new phones without protest.

If only I had some kind of magical influence on HTC, I'd have them produce one crazy expensive phone with multitouch, stylus, expanding butterfly screens and keyboard with Thinkpad nub, uhm Core i7 Gulftown CPU, radioisotope battery, lazars and jet engines. It'd cost like $3,000 but it'd be totally worth it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
To be honest, there's almost nothing I would want the stylus for on my phone.

On the other hand, I could not live without my Tablet PC (and MS OneNote) anymore.

I think capacitive touch on phones is enough, but tablets *need* active digitizers.

(otherwise they don't qualify as tablets anyway, according to the definition, but that's another story)
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
I enjoy using it on WinMo even in instances where higher precision is not required. It feels more mouse like and I feel I can operate the phone more quickly with it, especially while using the a soft keyboard. In fact often times, especially for programing-ish tasks, I will revert to the old and ugly, but compact default WinMo SIP. it takes up far less screen space but is still quick and easy to use with the stylus.

As with many other things, it is a matter of preference. I could probably get by with out it, but it would definitely be missed (as with other features I miss such as the Hermes scroll wheel and d-pad).