yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
It's not your choice of words that makes me think you have a strange dislike for Android.

It's the irrational way in which you defend that dislike and defend WP7.

You just gave another example: You say you don't mind hacking, but why do you care about official updates then? That makes no sense.

(and by the way, in case you didn't know it, the Nexus One is also fully controlled by Google and thus updated without delay)

Or *you* mention example applications and then try to talk away my arguments by saying those applications don't matter to you - silly, especially since they were just examples anyway.

Or you don't care about "freedom", but you want important features/applications that simply can not exist without "freedom".

Or you don't mind hacking your device - while at the same time you want to get official updates to a tightly controlled device. That makes no sense at all, because if you hack your device, official updates will typically work against the hacks (see iPhone: If you want to jailbreak, you can forget about installing updates immediately, because they remove the jailbreak).

Obviously you're not really thinking about the stuff you post.

The only conclusions I can draw from what you post are:

a) You're simply not good at rational thinking or

b) You are actually intelligent, but your strange preferences/dislikes prevent you from thinking rationally.

I'm leaning towards b), but fact is, you could really use some logic.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
I think you are looking at this backwards. While official OS updates for WinMo have been rare, for the majority of cases if you want a new feature you can simply download and install it. And WinMo is flexible enough that many 3rd party feature additions can be integrated seamlessly into the OS without requiring separate applications.

SQL CE is a poor example; if WP7 supported native development an SQL db library could be written or ported and included with software that needed it. Good luck doing that in Silverlight.

Also, tight control/customization restrictions/limited freedom are not prerequisites to universal OS updates. Desktop Windows does just fine being open and customizable while still receiving common official updates.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
Stop that!

The fanboys don't want your logic!

They want to continue to spew fallacious arguments so they can shield themselves from the fact the product they think they love actually sucks ass!
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
OMG you're right I keep forgetting that. I should have learned by now that trying to be calm and rational in these debates only makes things worse. Fanboy logic can really only be fought with absurd exaggeration and hyperbole.

SO GUESS WHAT IF YOUR PHONES HOME SCREEN IS NOT A DOS PROMPT YOU ARE A NOOB WHO SHOULD RE-ENROLL IN KINDERGARTEN AND WP7 IS MADE BY HITLER
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I'm not defending this dislike. I'm just saying there are things I don't like about Android, and refuse to go deeper into a discussion about pros and cons of this OS. Partly because I've said why earlier, but for the most part because I don't want this thread to turn into a thread about Android - the things I don't like about that platform aren't important here, it's a thread about WP7. To end this story about my alleged "hatred" or "dislike" however: I don't hate it, and don't love WP7, these are way too strong feelings for mobile platforms. They have their pros and cons. When pros outweigh cons I use them, and vice versa. WP7 without copy/paste won't be a platform I'm ready and willing to use. If Android gets a GSM device I like in terms of hardware, I'll buy it because I think it'll happen earlier than WP7 gets the features I need. When WP7 gets those I'll sell Android and get WP7 because there are a lot of things I like about it. I'm not marrying platforms and phones, I freakin' use them when they work for me. So they are not "good" or "bad" in general, they either work for me or not. And I don't mind changing phones every month if something I like appears as frequently.

I said I didn't mind hacking but I also said that the need to hack was a drawback. If I were to choose an Android phone now I'd get a Desire, not a Nexus One; if an OS update came I'd hack it and install the newer OS regardless of an official update. But an official update is of course preferrable, both in terms of convenience and in terms of platform consistency, which in my opinion benefits users and developers.

Look, I gave a list of apps I need, and said that they can be done even with present APIs. Further on I said that if other apps aren't available I don't care, and gave two examples.

What are these features and applications that I need and will miss in WP7 because of lack of freedom?

If I get a WP7 device, I'll do it only when it does the funtionality that is core for me out of the box. What functionality it is I've said earlier. Other stuff is for fun, which is important too but I can live without it. If an update takes that away from me and it causes serious problems for me, I'll sell the device and move to something else. I think it's pretty easy.

I'm not taking sides here and avoid thinking about things as black and white. Freedom has pros and cons, tightly controlled environments have pros and cons, big screens, small screens, Apple products, just about everything. I just think that the world is a bit more complex than "This is complete failure", "This is the future of smartphones" stuff you're talking about. It doesn't prevent me from using logic when I choose things.

But even more importantly, why are we talking about me? How is my rationality or silliness related to WP7's failure? Can we discuss the topic at hand instead of my motivation and IQ?
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Wow, seems like you just don't want to think about anything that doesn't comply with your irrational opinion. I'll just leave you alone, that way you will post less "un-logic" here I hope.

Cheers and have fun waiting for an OS that does everything AND fits into the small space between your strange preferences/dislikes.

Nothing wrong with having preferences by the way, but then just admit it, because it's impossible to justify those logically - you fail if you try, your justifications will never make sense ;)

They can't make sense if you don't apply the same standards to everything.

And you clearly aren't applying the same standards to WP7 that you're applying to other OS. Examples I told you before.

That said, I hope you'll think about it and start using same standards, instead of irrational justifications.

Bye ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] slaki85:
well Windows 7 is only good for peoples who like mobile phones with `easy use` multimedia...Windows 6.1 is far away best OS for PDA/Smartphones..Why?He have `same` start menu,`same` icons`,similar applications like Windows OS in PC.This is resons why I like Windows Mobile.Windows 7 look like some crap.Very stupid UI,very stupid features,and very stupid design...Win 7 look like Iphone OS..Iphone never will have apps like Windows.Iphone is very simple OS (os?) with most stupid multitasking,very stupid programs for kids...Win 6.1 is far away best OS.If Microsoft maked WIndows 7 best Windows OS ever for PC,than is Win 7 for mobile best **** ever....Only good things is that `we` have many apps for 6.1 and 6.5 so I dont worry...I will continue to use Win 6.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
It's only version 1.0!!!

I'm getting tired of seeing the "it's only version 1.0" argument. The problem, as seen by some like myself, with WP7 is the fact that it's a clean break. Some people (I'm guessing not developers) think this is good. Okay, fine.

But, you see, Microsoft wants people to buy this "only version 1.0" product. There will be some that the lacking features don't matter for. And, okay, if you like the Kin or iPhone, you might like WP7 in that state. Good. I'm happy for you. But, you can't expect to convince somebody criticizing a platform's lacking features to take the "only 1.0" argument seriously when that "only 1.0" product is being brought to market as a finished product. This is especially true for those of us that have been using Pocket PCs since 90s and early naughts. We have a history with the platform and know its strengths and weaknesses well. And rather than fix the weaknesses, Microsoft started over. This is nearly always a terrible decision in software design. And that's why we are critical.

MS wants us (yes, us!) to buy this thing and be happy with what they are spoon-feeding us. And I'm not going to hold onto hope that my favorite feature will eventually reappear in a software update. There is absolutely no guarantee about that!

But unlike Apple fans, MS fans are ready and willing to tell MS 'hell no -- this thing is crap.' So more power to the critics. And the ones that like WP7? Hey, it's no skin off my back. If you like it, buy it! If you are okay with its limitations and like the new features, I'm sure you will be happy. No point in arguing that as each of us obvoiusly has different tastes. :-)

Just try to understand why some of us think WP7 is "fail" when so many features we loved are now gone in the name of "user experience" (my new least favorite phrase in the universe).
[Windows Phone 7 General] gerryjoson:
"ecosystem" is mine, along with all the other catch phrases and buzzwords associated with the lame pre marketing of WP7, WTF does an ecosystem have to do with anything computing , apart from electronics being generally bad for them as far as production and industrial waste goes.There's more of an ecosystem at play in my shoes ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
Oh please none of that crap comes even close to "blogosphere", Microsoft needs to try waaaay harder if they want to make my eyes bleed like that word does.
[Windows Phone 7 General] lordcanti86:
Mobile phones are a different beast then desktops since carriers have much more control over phone OS updates. This was true for Windows Mobile, it is true for Android (just because Google develops a new version of Android doesn't mean that your phone will ever get an official update). The only way to guarantee updates for phones is to do this. Sadly, it's just the nature of the beast as long as phone carriers are as powerful as they are.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
I'm still not seeing how unrestricted app installation and customization would make it impossible for MS to push out universal updates. Please explain why this is the case.

And I have no problem with MS restricting the carriers ability to customize and install software, that is a change I welcome. That way everyone who gets a WP7 phone starts out with a consistent, clean, and hopefully stable and fast experience. Most people will be happy with that, I just do not see the harm in allowing the rest of us to screw it up if we want to.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, if you ever tried to cook a ROM with stuff like Manila in it you know that updating just the OS isn't that easy. Things tend to break here and there all the time, you get unexpected bugs and failures all the time. Granted, if a user installs such a customization himself he should be responsible for the consequences. But check this out. Google has to explain in public that poor battery life is not their fault, and judging by comments it's a widespread problem. Unpredictable consequences of installing third party programs that you can't control are the price of freedom, and it hurts perception of your platform, whether it's your fault in reality or not. Microsoft knows this better than anyone. OEMs in general and HTC specifically tend to hardcode a lot of stuff, Manila is absolutely horrible in this respect. When APIs for customizing the UI are not ready (which is obviously the case with WP7) this is destined to cause lots of problems going forward. I'm sure WP7 will undergo a lot of changes going forward, both in terms of what's in the box and APIs, and I'm sure MS don't want this to cause additional problems, unhappy customers and OS fragmentation due to the fact that some people won't update the OS because they want to run Sense or something that isn't working with the new version.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
MobileTechWorld today reminded me of an article posted on WebIS blog, by the way:
[Windows Phone 7 General] burnblue:
If you get all your apps from the Marketplace, then Microsoft has tested everything on your phone. If you sideload apps, then Microsoft would be pushing an update onto an untested environment. That is a risk that makes no sense for Microsoft to get into right now.

Also remember that phone updates will be changing major functionality of the phone, unlike the little security patches on the desktop's Patch Tuesday. There needs to be some idea of how installed apps will respond to this
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
Sense is far more than a normal application. It is a shell replacement that overrides a great deal of the default functionality of WinMo. I do not think we are going to see much of this on WP7. Carriers are not allowed to make any changes to the default shell, and hopefully, Metro will be good enough that the desire to completely replace it will be greatly lessened.

I see that battery life is becoming the number one excuse used to explain away restrictions on a mobile OS. I'm not buying it. Rather than blaming 3rd party apps for poor battery life, Google could implement an easily accessible power save profile in Android that suspends background processing and network polling for 3rd party programs. And there is surely numerous other tricks that can be used to extend battery life without sacrificing functionality. Computers are flexible. Unlike most things in life, with computers, you can very often have your cake and eat it too.

But we could go back and forth on this, and the point that the majority of consumers don't care about, or even comprehend these issues is quite valid. Even more to the point, MS is planning to release in about 6 months what is now a very unfinished operating system. An OS, by the way, that has to compete with the very polished iPhone OS. So I doubt any of the issues we debate here are even blips on the WP7 developers radar.

But the crux of the issue is simply this; we expected more from Microsoft. Many people here I believe, myself included, use MS operating systems because they want to, not because they have to or know no better. It is the combination of ease of use, powerful features, customizability, and unparalleled backwards compatibility that, in spite of its many flaws, make Windows a great operating system. Every new version of Windows for desktop and mobile, even the much maligned Vista, has stuck to these core principles of design and this looked to continue with what seemed to be the coming release of Windows Mobile 7.

Now, seemingly out of nowhere (though not completely if you paid attention to the Zune), they decide to abandon all but one of those features, and along with it a decade of applications, and an incalculable number of hours of work and research from the users at XDA and other similar sites.

All this so MS could release a quirky iPhone clone. So you might understand why many people here are not cutting MS any slack. I do wonder what the community here would be like today if MS had admitted it was planning on abandoning Windows Mobile years ago.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Helmore:
They only made that decision less than 18 months ago. At MIX 2010 the WP7 developers mentioned that they've been working on WP7 for a little more than 12 months. They even showed pictures of how far they were with the development of WM7. Just watch the first 4 minutes or so of the CL14 session presentation from MIX2010 to see what I'm talking about (sorry, I can't link to that presentation as my account has not yet been verified by a moderator, just Google this query: "session CL14 MIX 2010" [without the quotes] and then it should be the first search result).
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Check this out. Every single phone, laptop, or any other battery powered device has had the exact same problem. Google is just now finally in a position where they have reached the critical mass that tech blogs are noticing and writing about it. And yes, it's third party apps. CRAPPY third party apps. It's like how you can go to your grandma's house, open up IE to browse the web and you see 25 toolbars. And she wonders why browsing the web is so slow. Well, duh. You can't fix stupid. And you shouldn't try.

Anyway, back to battery life... Don't believe me? let's take the "gold standard" here, the iPhone. Even with its super locked down no-multitasking system, you get... http://www.google.com/search?q=ipho...-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

So battery life is an absolutely LAME excuse.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Twelve to eighteen months -- so they want us, the consumer, to buy it and beta test it for them. And you know these phones are going to be pricey. No thanks. I'll take Android (which looks more polished by the day) or just stick with the tried and true WM 6.5. Maybe in five years when they've ironed out the kinks and have an API that has some decent functionality, I'll consider it. I still think WP7 is a huge FAIL. You can't say "it's only V1 and it will be awesome in a few years" and come to any other conclusion.

I think the best part of this is that the XDA hackers digging through the first "official" WP7 ROM are finding that MS is using native code and APIs not available to third parties to make Office and some of the other integrated apps. Yet, those of us that would potentially develop for it get a neutered managed environment and a hell of a lot of excuses. Awesome.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Fantastic. Then, at that time, WP7 may not be fail anymore. But it probably also won't be called "WP7." I think maybe WP8 or WP9.

Which makes WP7 exactly what most of us are saying here: It's Windows Mobile's "Vista." Or better yet, since Vista was actually usable and reasonably stable although not perfect, it's Windows Mobile's ME, and hence, FAIL.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
When you don't allow multitasking you can control battery life, at least at times when the device isn't actively used. When you allow multitasking users can get "surprises". Me, I can figure out what's going on and either change the software that's to blame or make an educated decision to live with it if it is something valuable. An average user will blame the phone, or the OS. That's the reasoning I guess.

Me, I'm not "defending" the decision but I can understand it. If I ever get a WP7 phone I'll jailbreak it anyway, so I'll get multitasking when I need it. Filesystem access, lack of SNAPI, POOM and copy/paste are much more serious concerns I have anyway.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Maybe it's just not for the "most of us". And "most of us" isn't the majority of users anyway. And not even "all of us".
[Windows Phone 7 General] Helmore:
I haven't heard much about those excuses you're talking about. Could you back that up?

I think that declaring WP7 to be fail before it has even hit the market is just premature and baseless.

If you compare WP7 to ME, what would WM6.X be then? MS-DOS? Both ME and WP7 can at least be used by average Joe, while the same can't be said about MS-DOS and WM6.X.

As for WP7's development pace. With the speed that Microsoft is currently developing WP7 it wouldn't surprise me if Android's development cycle, which was pretty fast last year, will seem slow compared to WP7's development cycle. Microsoft plans to add a lot of features to WP7 before the end of the year, like programmable shaders for example, and I think they will continue that throughout 2011.

Now don't get me wrong, I agree that currently Android is a much more mature platform than WP7 and WP7 is still missing quite a bit. I just don't think it will fail because of that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
Ridiculous. WinMo is not difficult to use and never was even without things like Sense.

Sure if you spend most of your time in the deepest settings dialogs and registry editors it might be a little intimidating. But you do not have to go there, and other OS's would not even allow you to if you wanted.

But for making calls, checking emails, sending text messages, browsing the internet etc WinMo is no more difficult than any other phone OS. It just is not pretty.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
A new UI on a new kernel, that's what WM needed. Basically, they've done that with WP7.

Looks like they did just the right thing, doesn't it? So why is WP7 a failure then?

Besides being much too late, they've also added stupid restrictions, which are certainly not what WM needed. Apple can afford placing restrictions, cause they're ahead anyway. Google is rapidly catching up (or already overtaking) because they have no restrictions that slow them down.

Microsoft is years late, they should try to get as many people excited as possible, instead of frightening them away with stupid restrictions.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Android is growing because the market is growing and Google filled the void which appeared when Microsoft basically withdrew themselves from the market. Google is paying operators for pushing their phones, shares marketing expenses with them and fills the supply chain with all kinds of devices, cheap and expensive. OEMs are on board because it's a no commitment "free" ride, and there's no real compelling alternative. It has nothing to do with restrictions. The users running 1.5 and 1.6 obviously don't understand what they have in their hands, most of them don't know what multitasking is. In some cases (Verizon) they really want an iPhone, but the operator is giving them Droid as a replacement, and they're illiterate enough to buy that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Well, that's one way to put it, but far from the truth...

Fact is, Android is simply the best choice. Better than the iPhone, better than Windows Mobile, better than RIM, better than anyone else. That's the simple truth.

And if Microsoft wants to become a better choice, they can not afford to scare "geeks" away with ridiculous restrictions. Because the "average consumer" (what a stupid expression) does contribute nothing to the platform. Every platform needs "geeks" who develop for it, who promote it and so on and Microsoft scared them away.

And of course, Microsoft must give OEMs reasons to choose their OS over another. Why would any OEM choose WP7, that noone knows, that has no apps, that lacks features, over an established OS like Android? That's not going to happen.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That's nothing more than your assessment of the platform.

The average consumer contributes a lot by paying a lot of money. This money can go to develop the platform, including adding geek features if need be.

Oh, there are reasons. It doesn't require OEMs to spend money and resources on putting tons of lipstick on the OS, pay for third party codecs, develop decent media players, pay for Exchange license to compensate for the area where the OS is lacking. Microsoft is going to spend tons of money on marketing and getting operator deals so OEMs can benefit from that just as they do in Android's case, but with a difference - Android doesn't mean much as a consumer brand, it's too cluttered, whereas WP7 may because of the homogeneity of experience and features. Microsoft offers unlimited IP protection against patent and copyright lawsuits. There's one caveat, of course - whether the average consumer will accept the platform or not is uncertain. But if it happens, there will be no shortage of OEMs who will be happy to build WP7 devices.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Maybe you should watch the I/O keynote of today and you'll see why. I promise you will see why ;)

The average consumer will not spend money on bad products - and unless all the restrictions get removed completely, WP7 will be a bad product.

Actually OEMs want to do that.

You know the chicken/egg question? No apps, no phones, no features --> no customers --> no developers, no OEMs --> no customers --> ...