yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
What makes you think that absent audio routing is an OS bug as opposed to a specific OEM implementation?

Re AS - I'll agree somewhat. However, I haven't used it with my last two devices (I sync with Exchange), so I vaguely remember what problems I had. On the other hand, I know that my wife has problems with her iPhone and iTunes as well, so I'm more inclined to blame the "sync" paradigm as a whole as convoluted, prone to errors and influenced by interference of firewalls, AV software, PC stability and what not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
Just that it's a problem across (all) phone makers (I think).
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Wouldn't that point to missing functionality rather than a bug? I know there are VoIP programs that route calls to the normal speaker though. Not sure if they work on all WM phones, but they do on some of them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
Anyone else noticing this cyclic "evolution" of computing?

Anyone remember -- or even read -- about the time when a lack of multi-tasking was the dirge of the computer industry? When operators had to feed magnetic tapes one-by-one to the mainframe?

Sounds like what phone manufacturers are "evolving" to now -- multi-tasking was a massive breakthrough in computing, it was what made it possible for computing to come to the mainstream, and now that quintessential characteristic of computing isn't being made available to the customer?

Remember -- or read about -- back in the day when computing power was so expensive that there were many "dumb" terminals all hooked up to one super-powerful and -expensive mainframe? Sounds a lot like this "cloud" solution.

Except, what about accountability? What if I want to be absolutely sure my data won't be lost? How can I be sure of that with this "cloud" nonsense?

I can't. I'm depending on someone else, who's probably padded from true accountability by the legal-ese in the ToS, to maintain my data.

And they're forcing this bull**** upon us, it's not opt-in...like you said, there will NEVER by SQL CE for WP7...it's madness.

See I guess this is just how I think of Microsoft, you know, a company that makes countless billions by appealing to the market category that actually has money -- corporations.

So when I see "Three Screens" I think Server/Desktop/Phone, Server/Desktop/Laptop, or Laptop/Desktop/Phone...

...XBox never factors in, because it's just a special purpose PC when all's said and done anyway.

I agree with this.

There's an enterprise solution for BlackBerry (BlackBerry Enterprise Server or "BES") and for Windows Mobile (Microsoft System Center Mobile Device Manager 2008), but as far as I know there isn't one for iPhone (or WP7 for that matter, until (if? Has M$ even talked about domain enroll on WP7 yet?) Mobile Device Manager gets an update).

For the record, the built-in Microsoft Exchange Server ActiveSync-based management does not count: It's great and all, but it's not powerful enough, and not scalable enough to be an enterprise solution.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
I don't think they refer to one of the three screens as directly Xbox. They mean the three screens more as Computer/Phone/TV.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Sure you can't, and shouldn't. That's PR bull****, nothing else. They've overslept the fast turnaround in the market, being too complacent, woke up too late, and hastily put together an OS that is based on Silverlight, which is in essence a web technology and doesn't do anything well except presentation. Of course they won't say, "Hey, we're just pushing a system out the door that's incomplete and unfinished in every department", so instead you get all this crap about how lack of features is done for user experience and all that. That's how I see it. Could be wrong, of course.

It's actually funny - MS recently published their quarterly financial data, and it was a record quarter, Windows 7 being sold like hot cakes and all. But you know what? Despite all the revenues and profits, their stock fell. Because "investors" saw tremendous uptake in the consumer sector but not enough growth in the enterprise sector. They just discounted me and my neighbor as insignificant. Yet there's some other company that surpassed MS in market cap (and almost equalled in revenues), which exclusively caters to consumers. And it's growing very very fast. This company is of course Apple. So I'm not at all sure these investors are right and Microsoft is wrong. They can of course fail but it's worth trying. Apple's example shows that you can be very successful even with enterprises if you appeal to their employees enough to creat a pull for your products.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
Really?

Apple's example shows you can be successful with enterprises.

So perhaps you could point to the explosion of Mac OSX Server?

Or iPhones replacing BlackBerries?

Or Mac OSX replacing Windows?

Or iWork replacing Microsoft Office?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Really. iPhones are replacing WM and sometimes Blackberries, too. I see more and more MacBooks in business meetings all around. More and more enterprises now support the iPhone, SAP is making iPhone versions of their ERP software, and you won't deny that you at least see people around who carry BBs for mail and iPhone for everything else. iPhone users within enterprises are putting quite a lot of pressure on policies, so things are changing. Now, this is not like Apple is replacing Microsoft and RIM, but they've gone way beyond the initial Starbucks/housewife market. There's no imminent threat for MS business, but there's a lesson: it's better to make things that people like, want and enjoy, even if you sell to enterprises. Because that way your position will be much more solid, and your sales efforts much more fruitful. And also, given that enterprise purchasing is slow, it makes a whole lot of sense to try to appeal to employees first, especially given that you currently have a platform for enterprises that'll serve for a year or so. Mac OSX Server and iWork are obviously jokes, and Apple isn't an enterprise-oriented company.
[Windows Phone 7 General] veloslave:
I started collecting quotes... but

It was getting WAY TOO LONG

So... to all of you that have said, this sucks, I'm out of here, total fail etc. etc...

I AM WITH YOU X 10

!(*&^^%#U*O&*Y&$^%@^&**&)(__)*()^*&^$^&%!!!!!!!!!
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
I think you messed up a bit on the wording here. You said:

"[...] it's better to make things [...]"

and what you really meant was:

"[...] it's better to market things in such a way that people -- having no ability/will to research their purchases or opinions -- will [...]"
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Everyone that bashes the iPhone is cool in my book. Everyone that thinks WP7 is nowhere near great is cool in my book.

I normally take the side of big business, but Jobs is infringing on my passion for computing and because of that, I wish bad karma on him. I don't really like sheep that heard to the next Apple product either. But they are too stupid to criticize.

I love when a techie gets on XDA and defends Apple products like they themselves are neutral and haven't been taken in by the Apple machine. It just shows you how effective the brainwashing can be.

Back to WP7, I just don't see an enterprise product here. I just don't get how an integrated Facebook phone is going to sell to businesses. I am a therapist for a large agency in NY and my CEO and the executive team will not sit and hear "it integrates their personal Facebook accounts on their work phone" and sit back and order 50 of them through our IT department. I hate when people at work get on their Facebook as it is. GET TO WORK, you lazy lame ****S (pardon the language, but I'm passionate about that). I personally don't want to have a beer with my supervisor. I want to get on the golf course and talk business knowing that I could have 10 times more fun on the course with my friends. But that's just me.
[Windows Phone 7 General] veloslave:
I love it when someone else types it all out for me!
[Windows Phone 7 General] sketchy9:
Are people upset because WP7 isn't enterprise-oriented enough or hackable/techy enough? It seems that the two might be mutually exclusive; the last thing a corporate IT department wants is someone mucking around the company phone. I realize WP7 is neither enterprise-oriented nor hackable, but it seems one of those groups will be angry either way. WP7 managed to piss off both :) But I still think it's the right call. If MS doesn't sell more licences (i.e. devices) than they do now, there won't be a WinMo OR a WP7. They'll simply cut their losses and exit the market. WP7 gives them the best shot of selling enough licenses to justify their efforts in the smartphone field.

-R
[Windows Phone 7 General] quicksite:
You're a sharp cookie, Spike... That is indeed true. And alas it is also true that perception wins the day almost always over facts and measurable performance data. Apple Marketing & Brand experience is unsurpassed, and if rating them on that metric alone, there can be no argument, they are the undisputed kings of understanding mainstream consumer behavior, trends, comprehension, level of patience, attention spans, visual and musical hooks that appeal, and engaging styles to their messaging that starts a brand experience that's consistently strong all the way down to the interface of the device.

My first computer was a Kaypro in 1984, my second was a Mac SE in 1986, my third was an AT&T windows DOS machine, my 4th was another Mac, can't recall which... and for the past 10 years I have relied 80% on Macs and Mac laptops as workhorses for my business (information design/ user experience design), supplemented with Windows PCs simply to stay conversant and to assure cross platform functionality and rendering... That and accessing software that only runs on PCs.

But I'm pretty agnostic about who's making what - as long as its highly usable, reliable, smartly put together, expandable, and yes, at least moderately visually interesting. I held off for years on ipod, had many mp3 players prior... til they added video and it was priced affordably, and then it made sense because it was a great product. But the interesting thing is, though Apple has consistently won the day for me with its hardware, I have never touched the iphone... So much so that in a literal sense, TOTAL touch time I have had even using someone's iphone, just to try it, has been maxiumum of 10 minutes over the past 3+ years.

For sure I was extremely impressed, okay blown away, right out the gate by its well thought-out, highly usable finger-nav UI and multi-touch controls, but... so many functions were always missing that the iPhone never ever struck me as "must have"... It's the first of their hugely successful product lines that really never caused an itch to scratch, and its because there was always some hocus pocus tapdance marketing magic to coverup some missing features... and that is directly opposite my experience with my MacPro, MacBookPro, even my 8 year old G4 12" powerbook laptop still running great, and amazingly still in demand due to its sturdiness and reliability.

This is a completely expendable post adding nothing but a rubber stamp to your very efficient observation. It's true. And yet. The art & science of marketing, when applied by the best in the biz, with a product that has to have a threshhold "greatness" to it (of some kind) (and the iphone does -- it's ease of use and eye candy), will transcend side by side performance and spec comparisons in a heartbeat, almost every time.

In the movie "Bedazzled", there's a line where the Devil laments self-disgustedly "I haven't invented anything evil since advertising..." .
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
What's wrong with it? I'm not using the iPhone myself but see why many of its users are happy with it. It works very well for them.

Because it's not an enterprise product?
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
When you take a look at the distribution of OS', you'll see a large portion of the pie graph dominated by Windows XP. This is the business division. This is enterprise. Yes, not all of it; there are some people that stick with it at home. But for the most part, this is an accurate representation of walking into a business office and seeing 50 desks, all running Windows. This is where the money is.

Now you take a look at Windows Phone. It's not that you can't "hack" it and make it your own for personal reasons. But where are the meat and potatoes when I need to block internet access to my employees? Where can I turn the camera off and limit it's use? Where can I block out downloading of certain files? If my CEO doesn't like the interface, where can I tweak it a bit?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
There's no argument that the enterprise segment is huge, and that ther's a lot of money there. Did I ever claim otherwise? No. But if you carefully think about what you just posted, you'll also see that enterprise is a very slow and conservative lot. They won't change their policies because there's a new gadget this quarter. And as far as I know, enterprise has made some 14% of MS revenues, with households bringing another 30% and OEMs making up the rest. Exactly because these guys stick with XP for ages.

Luckily, I don't work in an organization like this and am in a position to afford to never accept a job in an environment like that. Apart from that, you have to admit that desktop OSes used by enterprises are much more strictly controlled than the phones. It's very rare to have somebody work on their own PC (although this trend is emerging as well), whereas using own phone and plan is much more widespread. So IT policies have a much looser grip here. In addition, it's not uncommon to have employees carry two phones (and sometimes even more). There have also been several reports about IT departments officially giving up and allowing employees to carry their own devices. Partly the iPhone became the trigger of this. Why does it matter? Well, it matters because, first of all, there's like a billion phones sold each year, smartphones are growing primarily outside of the enterprise segment, and it makes perfect sense to try to capture that. Second, because enterprises are slow and have lots of inertia it also makes sense to not make them an urgent priority. And that's exactly what MS declares as their strategy. They target consumers first (with enterprise employees being these consumers as well), and will approach enterprise-specific needs later. Sounds like a plan to me. Good or bad, risky, but not insane.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
If the data is stored on your phone, how can you be sure you won't be mugged and have it all stolen? The chances of someone breaking into the offices of the hosting provider and stealing the server you communicate with via the cloud are far smaller.

I think you need to accept the fact that you are out of step with just about everybody else in the world on this point. The same thing has been happening in the desktop PC market for the past decade or more. My company produces software that is bought by corporate or public-sector organisations. For a number of years we adopted a "thick-client" approach - a lot of intelligence in the client application which was an installed Windows application. But we're almost at the point, now, where no large organisation will buy any piece of software unless it runs inside a web browser. It's simply not worth the hassle. With the thick-client approach, if you want to (for example) upgrade the software you have to ensure a sucessful upgrade on every individual workstation; thin-client ensures that you just have to upgrade one server and everything else is automatic.

Consequently, over the next few years, we're going to have to switch our entire software suite over to a completely different technical platform (we use Adobe Flex rather than Silverlight, as it happens) and throw out every single piece of legacy code that's been written in the past 15 years. It's pretty painful; but it's what the market wants.

This is even more true of the average consumer. A consumer prefers a games console to a PC; he wants a phone to work with the simplicity of a console or a television. He doesn't care how something works, he just cares that it works. The results matter, not how you achieve them. And he hasn't the time to mess about with tweaking things. He has better things to do.

In some ways I'm a bit of a technology geek, but to be honest I can sympathise with that point of view. I'm moderately into home cinema - enough to have bought a colorimeter and figured out how to use HCFR, and done a callibration on my TV and video-scaler to get it all callibrated to D65 with a nice uniform gamma of 2.2. The results are very pleasing; but do you think I enjoy spending anything up to a couple of hours in the dark taking colorimeter readings and tweaking 11-point greyscale correction values? Hell, no! What I want is for the TV to have single button that says "callibrate to D65 with gamma of 2.2", to push that button, have it actually do what I want, and then just forget about it! I'd also like it if the deinterlacing and scaling built into the TV were good enough to render an external video processor redundant. Who needs that kind of expense and complexity?

I feel much the same way about my HD2. I've spent many hours tweaking it to work better; but having to do a factory reset twice a week gets old after a while. It'd be so much nicer if the damn thing just worked.

(sighs)

So, to go back to what I was saying originally: you need to accept that virtually everybody disagrees with you, and that, consequently, Microsoft doesn't care about your opinion. Accept it, and move on. ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I've noticed and pointed out the same thing numerous times. The Cloud has a place. And it is a different from the classic server-terminal implementation, obviously. But the concept is the same. We're moving back to centralized computing. Again, it has its place, but it shouldn't be for everything.

[/quote]

I don't know if I'd say that. ActiveSync-Exchange is extremely scalable and actually much more elegant that BES in that it's completely firewall friendly, doesn't rely on the device manufacturer's servers, etc. It just doesn't allow your device to be a virtual thumbdrive, like you can with ActiveSync-Desktop/WMDC, which is a huge downer for a lot of people.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
The iPhone is a plague for any IT house that has to implement script security policies. When the blissfully unaware CEO hipsters demand to use a consumer device in the enterprise, the subordinates who have to deal with the regulatory consequences are basically screwed. In larger companies, the written policy wins, even up against the CEO. But for those of us in small companies, the CEO wins. It absolutely SUCKS.

This is one case where WP7 is good (see, I don't hate all of it) because it will fully and correctly implement security on the device, unlike the iPhone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Your argument is BS on the surface. Unix has been around for some 50 years, but the Mac is apparently the hippest PC to ever exist with MacOS X, based on Unix. Age of the OS is not the same as the age of the UI layer. In addition, MS is not starting from nil. WP7 is still running ontop of CE, as WM5/6 did, but WP7 is using the Zune code tree rather than the WM5/6 code tree.

I am not privvy to the meetings that MS had about designing WP7, but while I feel getting rid of the UI/shell was a good idea, getting rid of the rest of it was not. I just don't see the advantage to using a media player's core and rewriting everything else. Rewriting huge swaths of code (rather than fixing existing code) always leads to tons of bugs while your competitors continue to innovate their own old code and pass you by. It probably won't be death for WP7 because they have VERY deep pockets, but the challenges are the same.

Honestly, as long as it was CE based, getting old native and managed code apps to work on the new OS would be pretty trivial. But they wanted to go for Full Lockdown Mode to prevent developers from being TOO innovative.

Got to reign in the developers. So much for Ballmer's "devleopers, developers developers" mantra.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
If you TRULY have to do that and it's not some buggy third party app/driver (or custom ROM), you have a bad device. Exchange it. No phone gets out of beta testing crashing to the point of needing a hard reset twice per week.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Non-jailbroken iPhone also sucks beyond belief in some very easy things for me as a user. And it's not an enterprise machine. There's no arguing about it. What I'm saying (and what you confirm is happening in some cases) is that pull demand from employees is happening, and it's a viable strategy to penetrate the segment. iPhone is showing this (although it's not there, and probably never will be there), and there's no reason why MS can't try to do it. "It" being - make a platform appealing for end users with bells and whistles and convenience and what not, add enterprise features and then go to enterprises with a "we have something that will make your employees happy and make you happy". Why consumers first? Well, because they react faster, are more dynamic and you can tweak/correct things on the go. With enterprises your first serious approach has to be right because it'll take them years to change their initial decision.

Yes, let's also not forget that it does have Exchange capabilities (and not the Moxier/Touchdown stuff, but something from MS itself), Office, Sharepoint and so on. So it's not quite just the media player/Facebook machine as some people see it. Sure they have a long way to go to make it a robust and attractive enterprise solution, but they sure can do it. And being attractive for end users will only help.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Aren't you exaggerating a bit here, saying that WP7 is all media player code? They got rid of the UI and replaced GDI with Silverlight. This may be the cause for losing most of the features and getting many restrictions (apart from obvious policy decisions like distribution via Marketplace etc.).
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
Trivial? That's what you wish it was. Like it was already known 1-2 days after availability of the WP7 Emulator ROM some people who took a closer look figured out that the whole Windowing-System is missing in WP7. This means all the standard window controls (buttons, checkboxes, menus, list boxes, etc. and even the application window itself) are simply not existing anymore!!! so it's not possible at all to port old apps to WP7. That's some reasons why i think the situation is really hopeless....
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
We'll see. GWES is there, coredll is there. Maybe missing parts of .Net CF could be easily added. We know that some things (P/Invoke, working in background, registry and filesystem access) are just policy restrictions, so these could be easily circumvented. I won't miss checkboxes and listboxes from WM for a second, it's window messages that I don't know how one could substitute and with what exactly. But I'm sure it's not all doom and gloom. If somebody ported a C++ game to Zune, I'm sure something will be worked out for WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
No, I'm not. They did not take WM6.5 and change the UI layer. They took the Zune and changed the UI layer.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
You misunderstand. I did not mean that it would be trivial with WP7 as it is. I meant for MS to do it, it would have been trivial because the default CE controls are already done, finished, and ready to be compiled into WP7. They chose not to as a conscious decision.