yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Then why do you confirm it? You're essentially saying the same thing: All the others are playing catch up. Only Android is innovating.

I mean, what's the problem with speaking out the truth? You've confirmed it is true several times now, so why not name it?

Microsoft is playing catch up, RIM is playing catch up, HP/Palm are playing catch up, Apple is playing catch up, Nokia is playing catch up... the only one who has a mostly feature complete OS and is doing lots of innovation is Google. You've essentially confirmed that, so why not let me speak it out? What's the problem?

And making "others" mad is not exactly true - there's one guy getting mad because his world is too small for conversation about things he doesn't like (Android). I wonder why he's reading threads that inevitably have to talk about those things, though... this dude has got some serious complexes. Reads general threads about operating systems but doesn't want to read about them - how strange is that?

And actually - if you've watched the OS 4 keynote - folders was one of the 7 "big" new features. THEY (Apple) made a big deal out of it! Not me! Apple is pretending folders are a huge deal. But seriously, if folders are one of your 7 biggest new features...

By the way: Don't take it all too serious... it's fun to make this guy mad with random "Android fanboyish" posts. :D You can imagine his brain exploding whenever you mention Android-related stuff that doesn't fit into it. :D In that sense... Android FTW!!! LOL :D:D Just a little trolling cause it's too funny....
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
Actually, MS isn't playing catchup, they are playing 'run-behind' :)

I wouldn't say that nobody else is innovating, it's just that none else is innovating the things you care to see. WebOS's task interface is still credited as one of the best for usability, and I've read many suggesting it should be ported to Android. WP7 is bringing, with hubs, a form of integration that none of the others are doing yet (though I credit Android for having built a minimal form of this into their platform so apps can call other parts of apps...but I have heard the feature isn't being used very much). I will happily say Apple isn't doing a damn thing innovative, they just copy what others have already done. RIM thought they were innovative with the click-screen idea, but the market told them no.

Actually, WM was pretty feature complete...Voice Control for years, a good browser (Opera Mobile), fairly good networking, most of the UI was interchangeable, Multiple development languages (asm, c++, c#, vb, java...more than android), and the (unrealized) potential for graphics and sound were there (at least with proper drivers and a little more tweaking). Just saying...

I have watched it (I also watched the iPad announcement, it felt like watching an oversized iPhone and nothing more). I know they hyped folders, but they do this because the fanboys love it, not because they think it's an innovation. Think of it like KISS, Marilyn Manson, or Slipknot (sad news about the bassist); they put on makeup and costumes for their show because fans liked it. Steve Jobs doesn't have any real part in creating these products, but the fans like to think he's the mastermind behind it all. You're not making a big deal out of the feature, you're making a big deal that they are making a big deal out of it.

It's still trolling man
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Yeah that's even worse. ;)

So who's innovating? webOS is VERY innovative, the card interface. That was a year ago. What happened since then? Who's been innovating? I frankly can't see anything. I'm really trying hard!

Hubs? Not very innovative to be honest. Nice in theory, but Android allows more integration, so what's the point of hubs?

Tiles? Again, nice in theory, but Android widgets are more useful. Again, too little options (like devs can't choose the size etc.)

Not going to deny that. WM was the most feature complete of them all.

IMO it could easily have matched Android with a little bit of polish (that was actually planned for WM7 but then killed). Yeah I would actually prefer WM7 over Android.

Unfortunately those times are over, WM is no more. And with WM died the only feature complete OS - besides Android 2.2.

But does it matter? I think it's kinda pathetic if you have to hype something like folders. :D

Does this say more about Apple or about their fanboys? Who's more pathetic?

But lots of fun. ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] crobs808:
Making a claim about Windows Phone 7 being a failure is not only premature, but also immature. It is like going around telling everyone that a movie is horrible and not to go see it without having seen it yet yourself. Some people have to be the voice of dissent, even when they have no cause, and that makes them feel powerful and boosts their self-esteem, which is sad.

Nobody can make any qualifications about Windows Phone 7, good or bad, until it is released to the public. If you have been around for even a small amount of time, you know that major updates usually come on the heels of the initial RTM release. We all know that Windows XP was a piece of junk when it was released. Even basic networking did not work correctly in August 2001. Microsoft let the users speak, over the course of a year, and by September 2002 we had, hands-down, the best, most solid operating system every released by ANY software company. Windows XP SP1 was the response to the user, and it fit the bill above and beyond our expectations. With that said, we all know that Microsoft goes in cycles. While Windows XP was solid as a rock, fast, and support everything; Windows Vista was a complete failure. Microsoft recognized this failure, and now Windows 7 is "the new XP". The way I try to describe Windows 7 to naysayers who have not tried it yet, is that it is the stability of XP, with only the look of Vista. Sure, some people may hate that, but the point is Microsoft got it right, immediately after they go it wrong.

This is their established track record...

Windows 3.1/3.11 = solid

Windows 95 = weak and solid (in areas)

Windows 98/98se = weak/solid

Windows 2000 = solid

Windows ME = weak

Windows XP = weak, then solid with SP1

Windows Mobile 5 = solid

Windows Vista/2008 = weak, then solid with SP2

Windows Mobile 6.5 = weak

Windows 7/2008 R2 = solid

Say what you want about Microsoft but there is a trend here, and Mircrosoft is getting better and better, with Windows 7 right from the start. I believe this will be the case with Windows Phone 7, if not immediately following the release with an update. Early adopters cannot expect to buy the RTM and have it be all peaches. For crying out loud...this community alone will strip Windows Phone 7 down to its last bit and create custom mods giving us everything the OP complained about not having, before Microsoft even has it on the shelf!

Anyway, I am rambling now, but the point is, don't be one of those people who spouts about Windows 7 being horrible, because inevitably, one year from now, Windows Phone 7 could easily be the **** of the walk. Keep in mind, the same thing happened with Windows 7, and it is unmatched. (Shut up Linux and MacOS users, you know you don't hold a candle to Microsoft's versatile codebase, like it or not)
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Based on that post, I would assume that most opinions are biased when it comes to Windows Phone 7. I am on the side that believes Windows Mobile 5.0 was solid until you got spoiled with gimmicky Apple products and tricked into believing capacitive touch technology is miles beyond what resistive could do. I'd rather use a stylus with a multi-touch resistive screen any day.

I want my POCKET PC to be a pocket-sized version of a computer with the pinpoint accuracy of a mouse. I had that before (and now). I won't have that with Windows Phone 7 until some genius comes along and puts out a custom ROM that transforms the Dell Lightning into a beautiful POCKET-PC-like Windows phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] crobs808:
Agreed. And biology plays a huge factor. Think about it; if we did not have opposable thumbs, there would be no iPhone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
I wouldn't call WebOS VERY innovative, I really only found the card interface (thanks, I'd forgotten what they called it) to be fairly clever. But, in their defense, their money hemorrhaged out and the development costs exceeded the platforms' market potential.

MS's Hubs thing isn't wildly innovative, but it's a substantial evolution to the Today Screen plugins and is a far more polished concept than the Widget interface Android uses. Make no mistake, I hate WP7's home screen so far (at least give us some themes), but I like the potential Hubs could eventually offer.

Fanboys are fanboys, they deserve what they get and they are generally quite happy with it, ignorance is bliss. I think it says Apple is highly manipulative and more than happy to take advantage of fanboys, same thing they've done for years...This is the same company that made a HUGE deal out of turning on video recording abilities in the last phone. Anyway, enough of that...
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
It's Platform Invoke, or P/Invoke for short. The fact that they forbid it via silverlight apps does not mean the framework does not or cannot support it. It's basically just a permission issue, really. It's there, you just can't use it.

As for stability, you can pretty well hose your device just fine in managed code. Create some ridiculously CPU-intensive task in an unending loop. Done. That's why they have the marketplace submission policies and testing rules. The same platform audits would apply to native platform invocations. In fact, they could even charge a premium (maybe a $50 charge per app with native code) to test it since it might take a little more effort.

I've said this before and nobody seems to listen. The real reason they are locking things down is DRM. That's it. The more control they assert on the device, the more potential there is to sell the platform to media and content providers who are worried about their copyrighted material being stolen from the device. Native code allows a much greater chance of slipping past the DRM protection than managed code, entirely because of the sandbox. In WM6.5, I can write an app that hijacks another app's message queue, inserts callbacks into its DLLs, and replace system executables with my very own, even signed! This is how many of the coolest hacks are done on WM. And that scares the crap out of content providers. Any app they write can be hijacked easily and be made widely available. With a sandbox execution model and marketplace as the only distribution point, that's a lot less likely. (it will happen, but it won't be as widespread.)

That's my fear. I don't think the threads will be killed. But I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of time (even in the emulator) before a WP7 build pauses them when it goes to the background.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Finally, somebody gets what this thread is about. Too many are confusing market failure and the internet meme FAIL. WP7's entire design from top to bottom is FAIL if you come from this perspective. It might be a resounding market success, but it will still FAIL if you want something more than a phone that plays music and has some clever GPS apps. I want a true Pocket-sized PC that happens to make phone calls.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
I was actually talking about the card interface, not the whole OS. ;)

But they were also the first to integrate different accounts (Exchange, GMail, social networks...) into each other with their 'Synergy' concept. That was later copied by everyone else (HTC, Motorola...). I'd say that was indeed very innovative as well.

I don't see anything innovative of that order in WP7, nor in Apple's or RIM's or Nokia's OS. None of them has been innovating lately, they're all still adding in basic functionality.

Polished? Really? Bling bling aside, let's think about this for a second.

You have eight tiles on your home screen. What happens if a program doesn't want to display information, but just an icon? Well, it takes up one whole tile (or 1/8th of the screen!) just for that single icon! How stupid is that?

Mixing icons and widgets makes a lot more sense.

Moreover, what can those tiles do? They can display icons (what a huge waste of space!), contacts, weblinks or text. Nice. But not that great when you think about what Android widgets can do. They can for example display all your weblinks in one widget, so that you don't have to create them manually. They can represent system settings, like WiFi, BT and so on. You can interact with them, like scrolling through their content without opening the application. They can take any shape, depending on their content, instead of being just squares (what if you want to display more than what fits into a tile?).

It's simply not a useful concept. Too much wasted space, too little flexibility. Android's concept is light years ahead in terms of usefulness. What's the point of being "polished" when it doesn't work right?

Design-wise, WP7 looks just great. But when you actually think about it and don't let the design fool you, you realize just how stupid many of the design decisions are.

You are right. The question is though, what matters to us users? Do we buy something because it is a market success or because it is a good product?

Surely it's the quality of the product that matters, not its success in the market. And in that regard, WP7 is indeed "FAIL".
[Windows Phone 7 General] NoWorthWhile:
First, I have to say that I agree with you, but in an entirely other context: On a desktop.

Having used an Android, I find it to be too ... barebones... Meaning that, yes, you have the functionnality/productivity/whatever you get from the widgets, but it's plain UGLY.

What WP7 goes after here, is style. And while style is purely subjective, from my point of view, they pretty much nailed it. They made it freaking beautiful.

In your exemple of an app creator which only puts a icon for the tile, well, that's up to the developper, not the OS itself...

The tile itself can provide information (eg: calendar, next appointment, etc...) so, if the developper ommits that part in his app, well, I'm sorry to say that he's stupid.

Imho, the tile interface is SIMILAR to the android one, only limited in a square or a "double"-square format (don't know how to call it). But it differs from android by being more stylish.

Now, to your response to @thx1200, I don't agree. What do you want from a pocket PC that you cannot do with an WP7, android or god forbid, an iPhone?

You get a calendar, email, document editing, all of which is synced to the cloud and your pc... What else do you want? What IS a pocket PC?

(Btw, I like these kind of threads and seeing everyone's point of view.)
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Errr... what are you using? I mean, this site is about Windows Mobile and Android. If Android is ugly, what is Windows Mobile then?

Stylish but useless. Those tile are a pain to use. There's no way you can say this is similar to Android. Not at all. I guess the Microsoft developers haven't even thought one second about how you would use that home screen. They made it to look nice and that's all. It's beautiful, yes - but sucks if you have to use it.

And by the way developers are not allowed to create double-wide tiles.
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
I don't consider something innovative if I've seen it done on several websites and desktop apps already...it's just moving the idea over to a phone. I consider the Synergy thing to be nothing special.

I can tell you wanted to talk about this, but you didn't quote or respond to the fact that I even said I hated the actual Home Screen. It may have looked like I just meant the look of it, but I hate everything about it. Much like the Titanium interface they tried doing with WM6.5, I find that MS is absolutely miserable about wasting space on a small screen.

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but just commenting on a personal preference...I'm so tired of interfaces of any kind that are so proud of putting weblinks or individual contacts in the main screens. For contacts, I'm fine and prefer a favorites list, but not dedicating a single icon to a contact. For weblinks, screw it, leave the damn things in the browser where they belong.

I was talking about Hubs allowing you to integrate directly into them (assuming you have a feature that justifies that). The 'polish' I'm referring to is the actual hubs, not the home screen. I suspect that Hubs will actually see less use than MS intended, which demonstrates that it's not the best thing to rely on it as a primary component of the interface (sorta like the former Today Screen which was studied and showed only about 5% of people actually used any plugins on it). I credit them for a good idea with the potential to be great, not in their interface design or even their graphic design (which everybody seems to be overly enamored with).

I hate to espouse cynicism, but don't we first buy if something is what we want, then if it's something we need, then if it's the best choice available, and finally if it's the only choice. Sadly, WM7 is one of those products which will only fit into the 'Want' category for some but has virtually no chance to stand up anywhere else. Worse, it's value in the 'Want' category is pretty questionable. It offers nothing to the user that isn't available elsewhere in some form, and it doesn't do any particular thing so well that it will drive people to perceive it is a substantial step forward (like iPhone did with mobile web browsing). I suspect they are hoping to follow in iPhone's footsteps with a focus on apps, but trying to win the fight by offering an easier programming language for building them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
The "Stylish but useless" part says a lot to me. This is my complaint about 90% of everything Apple produces and the one thing I most dread about the possibilities of WP7. Whoever said, "When style wins over substance, we all lose" was on the money.

Having also been a graphic designer for a while, I still don't see the love affair some people have with the look of Tiles. I've seen worse looks, but it feels like I'm staring at something right out of 1990. I'll grant it's nice to back away from the curve-appeal that iPhonies love, but it doesn't have to go to the extreme of squaring out/boxing in. I'm also a bit bothered by the tiles transitioning directly to a very well styled and gorgeous design that's used in the actual hubs. The effort that went into the design of the Hubs was top notch and the way that the Home screen should have followed, not attempting a wildly different and ultimately unconnected feel.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Well, you have to give them the credit for having the idea of doing it on a phone first. Who, knows, maybe we still wouldn't have it without Palm?

Yes I actually misread what you wrote. But I would have posted this anyway. ;)

It's a great example for how little thought Microsoft put into even the most important parts of the user experience.

Yeah that's why I said you can have widgets that display your whole favorites list. In WP7, you have to place each favorite manually as a seperate tile (again, what a huge waste of space...). You CAN do that in Android (place seperate shortcuts), but you don't have to. That's the great thing about choice. And IF you place seperate links for favorites on your home screen, they don't take like 15% of your screen each. :D

Yes, but I already said it before: They talk a lot about integration, but in reality, the possibilities they offer are lame. That may get better over time. But what is the point of those hubs, if Android actually odders more possibilities of integration even without them?

The tiles are like widgets, but less useful. And it's the same with the hubs: They're like real integration, but less useful. What I will say is, at least for the hubs, that they COULD be more useful, if Microsoft would enable more possibilities.

Actually the concept of "like ... but less useful" seems to be present everywhere in WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Errr.... nevermind. :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Not just that. WM and Android are in essence DIY kits - for OEMs and users. That has a ton of strengths and its own appeal. What iPhone offered was totally different - it's a finished product. With WP7, MS is aiming to deliver this as well, just adding some variety of hardware flavors and availability on networks, and a totally different look and style. Finished products are of course limiting here and there, and trying to make one raises the bar immensely on what you have to deliver out of the box, but that certainly is an appealing concept to many. iPhone and WP7 are dumbphones in that you are really tied to what they do, the way they were intended to do it. They are extensible dumbphones to some degree, but "apps" for both platforms are just that - embellishments, additions, improvements. They are not allowed to take away what's built in or replace it. People who have actually used the prototype WP7 hardware all say that the OS looks much better in real life than on pictures and videos, that it's blazingly fast and smooth - it feels polished even at this stage when it's far from being feature complete. And it is, how to put it, whole. And this wholeness is really iPhone's recipe for success and the reason why its users forgive it its many flaws (this is usually called Apple's reality distortion field) - in a way you feel like everything including third party "apps" are just one application. WP7 is MS's attempt to do a "vertical" device using their lingo (or a "post-PC" one as Apple calls it). So yes, MS is walking in Apple's footsteps in terms of development approach, but at the same time they are doing something very different.

So I don't think that the "average consumer" will actually compile tables with different OS features, they will just buy what they like best, providing it's pushed through the supply chain hard enough and has enough marketing and promotion to keep the interest high.
[Windows Phone 7 General] NoWorthWhile:
Winmo without sense is even uglier, can't argue with that. (Using a TP2 btw)

We don't know yet how it will perform on day-to-day tasks... I'm guessing the home page is what its name tells it to be: a HOME page.

Let me developpe:

It's the place where you see what's going on. You get a glimpse of what is happening around you, who wants to contact you, what you have missed, were you need to be in the next 10 min and so on. Winmo 6.5 does that, Android as well. iPhone does not.

That's the idea I'm defending, is that it does the same thing, but it does it with more style.

What I'm saying is that in the end, it's up to the DEVELOPPERS. Until they provide us with great tiles, we can't judge if it's bad or not.

But in the mean time, I'm sure it'll do it 1000x better than my TP2 :)

(PS: I had no idea developpers couldn't use double wide tiles, so I retract my argument)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That's something that can be said about most things in WP7 actually. Just about everywhere there is promise but they fall a step short of implementing it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] crobs808:
people said the same thing about the iPhone OS when it was first previewed to the public. Like I said in my previous post...you might be eating your words a year from now. Making black and white statements when there are still 6 months left of development time is rather ignorant.

How can you say right now that it is crap when it is not even halfway done? Do you take a pizza out of the over when it has only been in there 5 minutes, and still doughy then complain when it tastes bad? Come on.