yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Yep, that would be an incredibly silly way to do it. That, and lack of access to filesystem in any way for sharing resources, no access to PIM database, no way to set your app as default or register a filetype with it, no clipboard, and, what's especially annoying for me, no trace of SNAPI, are big bummers. And then on top of it we get http-only network APIs. With this kind of picture, no database access seems to me like a minor annoyance really. It's kind of funny how they spent all the time to develop Sync Framework and didn't provide some very basic functionality (SF is a great thing but no substitute for IPC or local DB of course, no matter how they pitch it).

That being said, I don't think that it's a sandboxing for the purpose of sandboxing issue, but rather a consequence of going for Silverlight as the main UI framework. Which in itself may be a good thing but it has a long way to go to become a mature development platform outside of the web.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
*All* available on Windows Mobile and Android... I really don't get the point of WP7 - especially since Microsoft has had the technology for ages, so why don't they use it?

Latest example: The Kin phones only sync every 15minutes - which is of course unacceptable for a phone that's solely built around communication. Microsoft is the 'king' of push synchronization (Exchange, Live Mesh....), so *why* don't they use their own technology?

It's ridiculous, if you ask me...
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, the reasons to want WP7 have been stated lots of times on this forum. I'll most probably pass on v1 but some time later will most probably go that way when/if it gets copy/paste, a decent bookreader and a satnav app. The major reasons are the fact that I love the Metro design language - it looks like everything I always wanted and then some, minimum uniform hardware specs, very limited OEM/MO creativity and centralized updates which might work. I'm all for lots of typography, no faux 3d, boxy style, black-and-white text etc. As regards functionality, I use my phone primarily for business - so Exchange, Office are the main uses apart from calling here. Sharepoint will be another thing soon. WP7 will certainly provide great music and video functionality for those business trips and plane flights. In addition to it, I'll jailbreak it and do some hacking/tweaking stuff to satisfy the geek in me.

WM is dead, there's no chance I'll see the next HD2 with this OS, so no point in looking in that direction.

Android... Well, beside a bunch of minor and not so minor practical gripes I have with it (which can be tweaked/worked around), I just can't force myself to like it. Google, Java, Linux are not the things that excite me enough to spend hundreds of dollars on. It has this Linuxish look and feel to it which I hate, the motion "physics" isn't smooth, all those kinds of aesthetic things kind of annoy me - I can live with that for sure but they just don't let me get excited about the product. That said, until Microsoft irons out the rough limitations of WP7, I'll probably sit on a GSM Evo if it ever materializes for the time being. Nothing less with Android impresses me enough hardware wise.

Who knows. I'm sure it's Silverlight to "blame".
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
Really? What is even the point then?

So the Kin is an IM client that only updates its chat logs ever quarter hour. Have fun trying to maintain an active conversation with that.

And now WP7 seems to be a dumb terminal interface to TEH CLOUDZ. Why'd Microsoft even bother requiring any on board flash memory when everything you need is happily contained in those giant fluffy hard disks in the sky (unless there is a HURRICANE CLOUD CRASH ZOMG).

Everyone knows that full signal HSDPA is fo free and easily picked up well past the solar systems heliosphere.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
To store stuff like music, videos, documents etc. What's the point in these exaggerations?
[Windows Phone 7 General] klarj2010:
First of all pal, if you need all those people to make a better os the what the heck would they need u for, typical! i had u pegged the minute i started reading your silly, winey little quotes. your the type of person who complains about how you can always do a better job in a subject that you have know inkling where to start.let me guess you're one of those I phone users, you know! the kind that runs around telling people that your Iphone is a PDA or PC phone, LMAO! Ok whatever!! working on the the new Windows OS is one the best and most eye opening experiences I have had the pleasure of being a part of since my career began and I love My job. Buddy you have BARELY seen the tip of the Iceburg. you're gonna want one, you're gonna want to pay to be on the Alpha list. you're gonna wish u were part of it pal.This is what an OS should be. microsoft(Windows Mobile) is proven, tried and always able to change and keep up with the new and now. those survival skills are what we call Veteran they come from years of experience in the business, often Microsoft isn't just keeping up,. its leading the way.Everyone else is playing catch up. But you'll find that out when it hits the new handhelds out there pal. you can re-insert your foot back into your mouth now!
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Smoother than WP7 will be I'm sure. Too bad you seem to have some dislike for Google/Java/Linux, cause otherwise you could have your close-to-perfect OS *now*.

By the time WP7 comes even close to Android *2.1*, Android will already be at version 3 or 4 or maybe even 5... how do you think Microsoft will be able to ever catch up? They won't! WP7 is a massive failure.

Exactly. That kinda says all about Microsoft - total incompetency when it comes to phones (don't get me wrong - I LOVE their desktop OS - but they're just bad at making phone stuff cause they have *no* understanding about how phone stuff should work).
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
zomg u got me pegged! im ashmd to admit did buut i lke hve a Steve Ballmer shrine in me closet nd i still use MS BOB as my desktop shell lolol. i actly call m$ evry day and axe to be part of they are windoze team cause one time i lke rote an irc b0t in mircScript and evryone rly lked it so id definly be god at wrting kernls n stuff. bu thy keep hnging up on me!!1 >:((( so nao i use an iphone but i still keep a pic of clippy in my wallet so i don get lonely at night. but grls rly lke me i hve lke 3 gfs nd ur mom so lol i stll wuldnt wan to be you
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Obviously because I'm not a big fan of Android I don't want WP7 to ever get "close" to it. I want it to go in a different direction. That's if you want to talk in general terms like "better", "worse", "clone", "catch up" and such not very meaningful lingo.

On a more serious note, I'd want Android to first get to Froyo when they'll try to have real OTA updates for meaningful parts of the OS regardless of OEMs. I'd also like it to get decent native Exchange support. Then I'll look at a device with a 4"+ screen that has Android on it. Maybe that'll be a compelling option for me then.

Maybe Android 3 and 4 will have three multitaskings and fifteen customizabilities, but those are little things for me compared to what I need.

In any case, this is definitely getting off-topic, so I'm done with the Android chat. To each his own.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Sorry, but WP7 is going in the wrong direction. Yes, the direction Android is going is better. Yes, that can be generalized.

Have fun waiting for WP7, I'm sure some day it will be where others are now. :D

(or where its predecessor, Windows Mobile, has been five years ago :D:D)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
WP7 will be released first quarter 2011. LOL!

iPhone OS is getting better, look at their latest release.

I'm already tired of Metro, and I haven't even played with a device yet. Kin looks nice, but I don't do facebook.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
It's 4th quarter of 2010 as far as I know, but still, that's much too late - for an OS that's lacking in many respects anyway. The world is moving on...

We always compare WP7 to Android and iPhone like they are now - but actually, they're moving on and will improve while WP7 is not even available.

And oh yeah Metro... nice eyecandy but *very* ineffective/ not user friendly. The animations are a *huge* waste of time, half of the screen real estate is wasted for nothing or pointlessly huge text, the number of buttons on the home screen is *much* too small (Android: 16-20, iPhone: 20, WP7: 8) and so on... really the eyecandy is nice, but many parts of the UI seem like an afterthought: first the design, then the functionality/ ease of use.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Waiting? I'm not waiting for it. I'm using WM and probably will use Android for a while if it appears on hardware I like. As for being where others are, it depends on the set of characteristics you're looking at. Having hardware variety on a consistent and centrally managed platform is not where other OSes will get in one year, if ever. Add to it great UI and great-looking third party apps and you get some great platform. No other platform combines all of it in one.

Not all animations are a waste of time, some of them don't affect transitions at all, some of them are transitions that cover application opening time. I'll agree though that it's too heavy on animations to my taste. Not a big deal though.

Re wasted space - I don't see a lot of it. But I don't like crammed interfaces. For an example of wasted space see WebOS homescreen. WP7's one is very informative and useful. Comparing the number of buttons is as useless as it gets, sorry. Taking a glance at the homescreen in WP7 gives me a lot of information - communications, next appointment, wireless and battery status, all that stuff is there. Tapping on the Office tile brings me to Office apps and recent docs, many other things are a swipe away. In the apps the fonts are big, but they are big for a purpose (i.e. showing there's something if you go back or not), and don't forget that that space is usually taken by UI elements in other UI paradigms as well.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
I really hope not :D

Don't know if you've ever seen one of the new Snapdragon devices, but the opening time of most applications there approaches *zero*.

On the Desire, HTC has even removed the opening animations, because they would waste time, as the applications open much too fast!

Either applications on WP7 really open that slow, or they're wasting lots of time with their animation. In both cases, there's something wrong!

WebOS' homescreen is fine, there is no wasted space, cause it's designed for 'cards' floating around. The space is only empty if you have no application running.

WP7's homescreen is not useful at all. Just think about it. Applications can be opened from their tiles on the home screen or from the application list. Both are *very* poorly designed: You have (only) eight tiles on the screen, much too little to place your applications there, you would have to scroll down all the time. Applications that don't display information on the home screen (that's the majority) don't need huge tiles, an icon one fourth the size of a tile is more than enough. The application list, on the other hand, is really just a long list with lots of wasted space. Launching applications on WP7 must suck... very un-userfriendly.

Here's more about it: http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0003cy

The whole WP7 UI is an afterthought. Design over functionality and it's not user friendly at all.

Of course they can. They can just write it in the license agreement, acess to iTunes/AppStore will be removed if you hack the phone. Microsoft is doing the same with the XBox: If you hack the XBox, you lose access to the gaming network:
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
Briefly I do want to agree that animations are important, and again that the current incarnation of Metro does hit it a little too hard...between the name and the feeling, it reminds me of waiting for a subway train to come to a stop, the doors to open, people to leave, and finally I can get on...I'm just starting to want to say "Get on with it!".

I don't like the shaping of the UI though. I admit, I like some fading lines, gradients, curves and at least slightly rounded buttons. I feel the flat squares are a little too minimal...but I suspect that will be another spot we can expect to see customizations in the future. Truth is, I still think TouchFlo3d or SenseUI are the best looking interfaces I've seen yet, and with just about the perfect level of animation.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
What's insulting about what I've said? If you want to make a buck or two you can do it with the APIs provided - they cover 99.9% of the functionality available in Appstore and Market "apps" where a vast share isn't even applications but web clients like IMDB or Engadget or what not, books/videos embedded in applications etc. Some "real" applications like bookreaders or satnav apps can be done with what's provided as well. If you're doing something "database heavy" then you either have customers that need it (and they won't be on WP7) or you're doing it because you like to tinker with DB stuff. Either way you're not targeting 100% of devices. Stuff that's posted here on XDA - tweaks, hacks, embellishments etc. can do just fine (or even better) with Cydia style distribution. They're not guaranteed to work on all devices even on WM (this is not to mention Manila tweaks which are in an even worse position). The projects that will really suffer are the bigger ones - browsers, video codecs, apps like Skype, or Pocket Informant. And then if they are done by big names they most probably have account managers at MS with whom they can negotiate policy exceptions.

In any case, there's nothing "diminishing" in what I've said. I don't see doing software for money as something negative at all. It was merely a response to "this is awful for developers" sentiment. There are developers and developers.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Or an uncensored Market like Android's. All that stuff can be submitted to the Android Market for everyone, not only users of hacked phones - which means you can develop stuff like this and *still* target 100% of devices.

(and even if your app requires root access or anything, you can still submit it - that's very different from the iPhone, where you have to place it on Cydia and risk getting banned from the developers program!)

That's the stuff that makes the difference! And that stuff will not exist on WP7 (Skype and Pocket Informant are already confirmed to *not* become available on WP7).

Even between iPhone and Android there's already a difference, with many big applications not being allowed on the AppStore. Of course the difference will be much greater between WP7 and Android/iPhone.

It's not about all the small stuff, fart apps and website wrappers - the big stuff is what makes the difference. And that means: The more possibilities, the more freedom, the better (i.e. Android > iPhone > WP7).
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That's true. And the takeaway is? I shouldn't be interested in WP7 or iPhone? Average Joe shouldn't? Or the multiple developers that do hacks for the iPhone? Or what? I see that it's a big deal for you, and that's only fair that you shouldn't consider WP7. That's fine. What you choose or not matters little to nothing to me though. And many others.

Well, what if I don't care about Skype and Pocket Informant? Whether they will be on WP7 or not makes absolutely no difference to me? I don't, and never will, buy a phone because of "freedom". I'll buy it or not based on how well it does what I need it to do.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Maybe try to switch on your brain and think about what I said? Is that an idea? I really don't want to explain it a hundred times, just because you are too lazy to use your brain.

Skype, Pocket Informant... they are just examples. There *will* be something you care about that can not be developed if there are restrictions.

It's not about freedom for the sake of freedom. It's about the stuff that is *only* possible with freedom.

If it's not Skype, it's something else. An alternative media player? A satnav app that can't be done in Silverlight? A browser? Whatever. It's not about freedom, it's about the stuff that freedom makes possible.

Maybe you don't care about freedom (understandable for a Russian :D), but you certainly do care about the stuff that is not possible without it.

But I don't think you'll understand that, whatever.
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
Ok, I guess I didn't expect most of what I said to be responded to in context...and I applaud the fact that both of you guys kinda found a way to keep banging the same drums...but the bad part is, as I've quoted here, these statements aren't accurate, or at least won't be in the future.

Just because there isn't a version of SQL CE in WM7 right now doesn't mean there won't be (or that an embeddable version won't be a reasonable alternative). Btw, having been programming for quite a few years and in more languages than I remember, believe it when I say that there are more efficient ways to work with data than a DBMS.

As to app availability...

Skype is a media glutton, they are notorious for saying one thing and turning around a week later to do the opposite. Sure, I wouldn't bet on them being a first round release, but I don't doubt they will turn up in the near future. I may be wrong, but I also think I read that the API doesn't yet have access to the microphone...which would be another obvious sign the SDK is still in it's infancy (again, assuming I'm not mistaken about what I recall reading).

Pocket Informant??? Maybe it's just me, but I read that and just wanted to yell out "WHO CARES?!?!?!"...but again, maybe that's just me :)

I am a bit curious (after reading your second set of comments), what are you two even arguing over? shaundalglish shouldn't even be reading this thread as there's obviously a LOT of droid lovin' going on and has already made his next (current?) purchasing choice. vangrieg, well, I can't tell if you want WP7 or not, but it seems like you're sold on it (except for the myriad of complaints...shrug). Besides one person yelling for openness and the other yelling that you can hack anything to make it open (which are actually two unrelated arguments), I'm not sure what you two are really trying to say anymore :rolleyes:
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I know these are examples. I don't care about them, however, because I assess platforms by what I need from them. WP7 doesn't have copy/paste? I'm not buying it. WP7 doesn't have Skype? Couldn't care less. Android doesn't have a 4+" screen device? I pass. Does it have decent native Exchange support? No? Don't care about it either, freedom or not. iPhone has a non-slippery body and a big high-res screen? No? Pass.

There are things that a platform must have for me to consider it, and things that are nice to have. If it doesn't have what I consider basics, I don't care how free or wonderful it is otherwise. I already said that as far as third party applications are concerned, there are only a few I'm interested in to an extent that I won't buy a device without them - an Office suite, a bookreader and a satnav app. Everything else is complementary and not required. So no matter how many examples you and I can come up with, they are irrelevant to my choice. The platform itself is therefore more important for me.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Skype and Pocket Informant were *YOUR* examples.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Did I say anything that shows that I disagree with this?

Well, you obviously didn't read the whole thread (which is not a complaint). Yes, I like the OS (and I stated why more than once). Yes, I have gripes with it, some of which are showstoppers (copy/paste), others not so big, and I think the latter can be hacked around, which I don't mind because they aren't some core functionality like Exchange or Office. When it gets copy/paste and comes on a phone with a 4" screen I'll buy it. I think my position has been pretty straightforward, hasn't it?

As to why I'm commenting here - well, this thread is called "WP7 is complete FAIL", and I'm arguing that it's not. While I'm replying to people who are saying that everybody should switch to Android or that the world has come to an end, I'm not necessarily trying to convince them of anything. I'm just expressing my opinion so people who just read this can see it. Something like that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
I don't care at all whether something has written "Google" or "Microsoft" or "Apple" or "Java" or "Silverlight" or whatever on it.

It just has to be good.

vangrieg seems to have some strange dislike for Android that he can not explain, he just dislikes Google/Java for no good reason.

I don't care about WP7 actually, because it's a *failure*, yeah it sucks. It's trying o start where the iPhone has been three years ago, while everyone else is moving on.

I'm actually just commenting because of vangrieg's irrational hate against Android and totally stupid opinion about the whole freedom/hacking thing.

That is all.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You are exaggerating, as usual. I've explained more than once why I don't want to switch to Android, for very simple practical reasons. That it's Linux/Google/Jave just adds to an my being underwhelmed overall, not because of the names, but because of prior experience with the products. Simple as that. I don't "hate" it. I'd use much stronger language if I did. You can think whatever you want though, and I don't want to participate in another discussion about this OS here, as it's a different topic.
[Windows Phone 7 General] pezley:
Just to put a few things into perspective regarding the UI.

After seeing it initially I was a bit perplexed by how bland it looked. I could'nt work out if it was missing something or it was just unfinished. So I went and bought a Zune HD which seems to be the same Metro UI we are seeing but with some tweaks.

I must say, I have never been so impressed with a device. The UI is fantastic and after using it everything fits into place, the animations don't get old and are certainly not intrusive.

Whilst I'm still dubious about the application delivery method on win mo 7, my worries about the interface have certainly been stamped out. So far,... colour me impressed.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
By the way, this is touching on one of the reasons why I like the idea of WP7. The tight control over the OS, restrictions on OEM customizations etc. do bring hope that updates will be coming to all devices regardless of HTC's willingness or ability to update firmware and such nonsense. So I can be quite sure that if/when a feature is ready I'll get it. It kind of brings the best of both worlds - hardware variety and getting the product you really want. An example of limited freedom which is a benefit.