yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
Please explain, how is this different than iPhone or Android?

Both delivered wildly incomplete OS's that were not polished either. I'm not suggesting people should rush out and buy the v1...but that's for the same reason I'd slap any jackass that rushed out to buy an iPad on release day...anybody not stricken with amnesia-grade memory loss should be able to recall that the first release of ANYTHING is buggy and incomplete.

PS2/3/P, iPhone, iPod, WinMo 6 (yeah, how many don't remember those growing pains?), Android, XBox (both versions), and hundreds of other massively popular products were all crap when they hit shelves. At least Microsoft isn't calling this a final product yet. If you'd actually follow your own advice, Android, which is still notoriously kinked, still won't be viable to you for another 2 years or so. I just posted another response that pretty much sums up the same point though...

I'm just getting tired of seeing so much FUD being spread around when nobody really has context yet on what's going to happen.
[Windows Phone 7 General] sad0felix:
Yep, right.

I take care of the IT of local branch of a little in number of employees, but still worldwide, renewable energies investment company.

We currently have XPs (half native, half Vista downgrades) and Sevens, all Pros, because of the domain thing.

I feel quite well with both OSs, but I strongly believe that 7 is quite an improvement over XP.

Vista was just 7's alpha.

Now, you probably know that the marketing guys play with numbers as they want.

As you probably know that change management is always tricky.

Let's not panic or cry (we use to say, in Italy: don't bandage the head before breaking it): you'll see that everything will go fitting in the right place, when it'll be its time.

And that just because they'll see they can't leave WinMo pro-users alone.

Cheers
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
Until this statement, I've mostly agreed with you...but this is a baseless opinion...it's the best choice for YOU...stop telling anybody else what to do.

Actually, the "average consumer" is NOT a stupid expression, it's absolutely legitimate and I hate to give credit to the most evil of evils, but Apple has proven the legitimacy of that. You say that MS scares off "geeks", but there's no explanation for why the "geeks" didn't completely abandon the iPhone OS when Android came out. Dude, seriously...

The vast majority of people aren't interested in deeply hacking their devices, and of the ones who want to jailbreak them, about 80% are really just interested in pirating the apps. The "geeks" will surely prefer a more naturally hackable device and OS, that's why this forum has become popular and even experienced some overflow. However, developers, which is where the serious action is, will flock to any device where the "average consumer" is actively using and purchasing. This is why WebOS actually IS A COMPLETE FAIL, Blackberry's Storm was and is increasingly becoming a FAIL, and why WM teetered on the edge of fail until HTC came along and give the "average customer" a reason to like it again (until somebody hacked 'the cube' onto the Tilt/TyTNII, WM was looking pretty bleak). Without the "average consumer", there's nobody buying applications, and without people to buy stuff, there's a lot of developers that won't waste time on a platform. Microsoft's name alone will deliver enough people to get started. Maybe you aren't interested in this, but any developer that understands how markets work will be very interested here.

For

REGULAR

app development (yes, I mean tip calculators, fart apps, and RSS readers) WP7 is already pretty suitable, and the MS Marketplace will be inundated with tons of those, just like the iPhone and Android. "Geek" development and hacking will happen too, just as it continues to happen in Apple's walled garden. Even late to market, MS will attract a crowd and with a very easy to learn and use API, the developers will support it (as long as the marketplace policy/pricing gets a bit friendlier than it was on first release). As either MS or hackers make the native API more accessible, more things will happen and the power of the hardware alone with ensure a lot of interested parties of both the "geek" and "average consumer" varieties. Time will tell if people STAY, and that to me is the real question, and one that can only be answered with time and how well MS responds to the competition.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
+1, this is very true.
[Windows Phone 7 General] XaaR_:
That is true, and also the reason I want a WP7 device, to develop to it.

iPhone isn't an option since a Mac is required, Android would be an option, but where I live it isn't possible to download paid apps. So it's either all free, or abandon the local marketplace (including several others).
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
Isn't the discussion about the release date, 6-months-in,

and

2-3 years from now? Is there a reason it shouldn't be all of these and possibly even the really long term (ZOMG, 5 YEARS?!?!?). Maybe you're only concerned with first-day-off-the-shelf, but I think I'm not the only one in the discussion that's thinking about 6-months in. Also, since there's obviously at least a couple of developers in this group (I'm one and I've seen at least 2 others poke their heads out), I think a lot of us are judging the phone on all of these timelines.

In all fairness, the KIN is a total one-off and not truly connected to WP7 (it's based on WinCE and not even using WM). Most people won't know that the KIN isn't WP7, and with a terrible sample of what they can deliver, it'll just hurt the image. As for hardware quality, that's just foolish for creating a bad user experience. This is the worst thing MS could do since it'll have a terrible customer experience when there's no apps, minimal community support, and probably no real OS support in a year...From what I've seen, I suspect the KIN will turn out like the Helio phones; over-hyped and advertised, then forgotten after some well-deserved mockery.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I agree that it was incredibly silly to call this "Windows Phone", just as renaming WM was, but big companies have an inclination towards umbrellizing brands and diluting them no matter what.

Anyway, I went to the KIN forum and was really surprised. Yes, there are complaints about hardware where things fail for people, some silly questions, but practically no complaints about functionality. Go figure.
[Windows Phone 7 General] lordcanti86:
I think that's because people looking for a whole ton of functionality aren't buying Kin phones to begin with.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, exactly. But this also means that it won't be such a horrible disappointment as many of us think, and it probably won't serve as a reason to hate Windows Phone for its users.
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
I actually read into this differently than most...

The most recent Android phone I touched belonged to a friend. She handed it to me and I touched the screen and realized that somehow touch sensitivity was crap. I barely looked at the phone after that because I couldn't get passed the bad touch screen. I suspect it's not even all of that model, just hers, but I almost instantly lost interest in playing with the phone after that.

Maybe I'm generalizing, and it's likely to be different if you own a device, but I can't stop thinking the lack of functionality complaints could be because the people who would complain are too busy with hardware complaints to concentrate on software. I'm not saying this is the case, just posing the possibility.
[Windows Phone 7 General] igotit989:
Why is it not a option just get some crap intel p4 or higher parts and you can load a Mac Osx on it. for alittle bit i had a 4gig p4 with 2 gig ram running xp, vista and Osx10.5 up tell the ide failed on the board lol
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
The iPhone was something exciting, back in 2007. For "regular people" and "geeks" alike.

WP7 is not. Simple difference with huge impact.

Now what????

First you attack me for saying there's nothing competitive to Android, and then you actually confirm that everything else sucks.

And really, no one can tell me WM, Blackberry, iPhone or WP7 could be better than Android. Maybe they have SOME aspects that are better, but overall, NONE of them is even remotely competitive.
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
I shouldn't respond to this because it's starting to feel off topic, but this response isn't actually relevant to what I said. It's a valid statement, and one I even agree with, but it's got nothing to do with the "average customer" or "regular people" subject. And why did you choose to change your own terminology in mid-stream?

First, I attacked you??? Was there a part of the conversation I wasn't a part of? I just said that something you said was opinion and you were using it like fact. That's hardly attacking.

Second, I never said there was nothing competitive about Android. If you got that, you're either mixing me up with somebody else (easy enough in non-branching forums) or you're reading too deeply into something, perhaps that I haven't praised Android (notice, I've given no more than superficial praise to any OS). I respect Android a great deal and I've seriously been considering an Android phone for later this year. So please don't suggest I said things I didn't.

Third, I said Two OS's were fails...2 out of as many as 8 (depending on how you count them). That's not even in the ballpark of "everything else". Further, I said WM was close to a fail, which is based on quickly declining sales when the iPhone released...but I never said it sucked, only that it was failing until HTC revitalized it.

Fourth, and feel free to send this by private message because I don't think you need to continue pulling this thread off topic. Since you speak as though it's clearly defined fact and NOT opinion that Android is superior and no person could possibly find it otherwise, I challenge you to back that up...I'm sure you're educated and I expect that you know the difference between opinion and fact. Please be aware that when I call you out for telling people what to do and that you're telling people they are wrong for simply having their own opinions, it's because you're criteria for it's superiority is based on your perspective without taking the perspective or needs of others into account.

Finally...And this is to everybody...I hope that I haven't come off too strong (and I know I'm too long winded, sorry for that). I'm really not suggesting WP7 will be great, or that it won't be. I'm not trying to pick on any OS out there (well, WebOS and Blackberry...but that's like picking on the kids that wear GI Joe Underoos to high school, they kinda deserve it). I'm trying to promote healthy criticism, 'cause WP7 definitely leaves a lot to be desired and it NEEDS to be criticized for the right things; like leaving out certain obvious features in the first release or the walled-garden approach to their design. I'm also trying to promote more reasonable discussion, like acknowledging that we shouldn't limit the topic to just the initial release, but the direction MS will take it and the speed with which they can deliver changes. Some of this isn't important to everybody, but it obviously matters to at least some here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Yeah and then you actually confirmed that "opinion". :D

Thanks.

And I didn't say that you said that (you misread my post). So lots of hot air for nothing. ;)

In order to see whether WP7 is "FAIL" or not, one has to compare it to the competition. It's inevitable. I know some people here (not talking to you but the people I mean will know it) don't like Android (without actually knowing it...) but there's no way to assess WP7 without talking about the competition. And the most advanced competition is Android, there's no denying. Just look how everyone else is trying to catch up: Apple adding folders (yeah!), RIM modernizing the UI (great!), Microsoft starting over (lol!)...... they're all STILL working on basic features like multitasking, copy&paste, folders..... while Google is done adding the basic stuff and now working on actual innovation (like what they're doing with voice recognition).
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
It's a kludge, but it will work. I read about this too. It's yet another reason that the 'no multitasking' rule doesn't make sense. So either this workaround will be plugged in a later version, or the no multitasking rule had absolutely no point to begin with.

Doubtful. No common file system. No Zune API for third party apps to interface with the music library loaded via Zune software. Unless all your music is from the cloud (like Pandora), or streamed, then you will have no third party music players. Of course, I haven't heard yet if the background thread loophole prevents the device from sleeping (I'm assuming the device still sleeps like previous versions), so as soon as the screen goes off, no more music? That's an unanswered question.

That's missing the point. Of course the hackers here are going to jailbreak it. It's inevitable. It's the mere fact that jailbreaking is required to get it to do what we want that is the problem. That means you are always relying on an illegal activity to get your device to run the way you want.

I like my custom ROM, but if it disappeared tomorrow, I could easily get along fine using the stock ROM... It just has extra garbage I don't want, but I could live.

I could not possibly get what I want done without a jailbroken device that in its default state is locked down.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
BS. I have never heard a developer ever say... Oh my god, it's TOO backward compatible! This is making my development too complicated!

First, all the old APIs are still there. It's Windows CE. It's a well documented core API that many developers know. It's just not available to use due to what is effectively Source Code DRM.

Second, nobody says you have to develop in native C++ and use the CE API. You are absolutely free to use the Compact Framework and Silverlight. Managed apps are, and I know this may be a shock to you, interpreted and JIT compiled to the native API you think is so heavily criticized for sucking.

Granting the developer the ability to use native old APIs, while still introducing the new Silverlight API would be perfect and settle a lot of discontent.

****, I'd be glad to update all my apps UI layers, if I could still use the same guts of the app. But I can't do that because the new API is missing a lot and is too locked down to allow dropping down to the afforementioned well documented native API.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It's still CE! It's not a new underlying kernel, just a new version. Some of the native libraries might be different (I haven't done a lot of extensive digging into the deprecated APIs, if any, from CE5 to CE6/7), but they are still there. We are just not allowed to use them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
The bigger problem is Microsoft can make your phone useless whenever they want. And I think they will do it.

They already demonstrated that with the XBox, where you get kicked out of the Live network if you mod the console. They can do the same with WP7.

If they do, "jailbreaking" will not be possible. And hopefully, if they do it, Apple will do it as well :D.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Okay, then in 3 years when they have a decent product, you can start a thread called "WP9 is complete WIN."

Until then, the point stands.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That would be a funny move on their part. If they disable XBLA accounts for gamers, they hurt them. If they disable my Marketplace account because I enable sideloading an a Cydia style installer... Well, they'll shoot themselves in the foot, and it will hardly make the phone "useless". What else am I going to lose, a Hotmail account?

Well, for starters, they would have to develop an interface between native code and Silverlight, which they don't have (well, they do provide something for OEMs but that's much easier to deal with if you want to change everything in a year). There's also stability perspective which they are talking about - they don't really have a way to sandbox native apps.

I'm really amazed that this is being seriously discussed. At MIX they said that applications would be given time to save state after they lose focus. The exact amount of time hasn't been determined, so the emulator simply reflects that. When it will be determined background threads will be killed.

Well, all you're saying that in 3 years WP7 may become an OS you like, but that has little to do with its success or failure really.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Yeah so how much of the iPhone's apps are available in Cydia? 99% are in the AppStore and you lose them ALL.

Turns your phone into a Zune that happens to make phone calls - but little else. If that's what you call a useful smartphone...

Guess you never heard of P/Invoke? "Mixing" .NET and native code in WM6 works just fine.

If they don't want apps in native code, they need to provide a set of APIs that is at least remotely competitive to what you find on the iPhone or, even better, Android. What they have now is "FAIL".

Yes.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, I won't provide links here, but almost every application from Appstore is available for free if you know where to look, even if it's not on Cydia. If anything, appstores make it easier to crack applications.

Of course I've heard about it, and used it myself. Sandboxing apps and giving them P/Invoke would be incredibly strange though, don't you think?

I fully agree that if you restrict APIs to managed only you raise the bar for what you need to provide to developers by a huge margin, and WP7 is nowhere near that level. I also fully agree that what's currently provided is incredibly limited and is mostly targeted at fart apps. And Microsoft acknowledge this themselves - Charlie Kindel said that developer concerns are valid in that you can't make a racecar from a bicycle frame. So what? It doesn't make WP7 a "fail" because 99% of users won't even notice. MS is building a well-managed controlled platform, and they had to start somewhere. This "somewhere" isn't as far behind everyone else as you're painting it, and in some areas it's much better out of the box. It'll take Android years to get to a point where they will have a meaningful system of OTA updates, and iPhone will never have hardware choices.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Yeah sure.... kid you're pathetic.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I don't know why just about every Android fanboy here resorts to rudeness all the time.

Yes, almost all of the most popular apps are available as cracked .ipa or .deb packages. If something hasn't been cracked, there are places where this can be done for you. The most expensive apps - satnav - are all available for free, games are as well. These obviously only work on jailbroken devices, but that's where we started. Shutting down access to Appstore or Marketplace or what would hurt Microsoft and Apple more than anyone else.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Yeah what else is pirating developers' hard work? It's pathetic.

Maybe it's not the "Android fanboys" but you? Calling people "fanboys" won't bring you much love. Just because you hate Android doesn't mean you can call people who can think more cleary than you "fanboys". YOU are the problem here, marking everyone who doesn't fit into your small horizon an "Android fanboy". In reality, those "fanboys" can think a lot more clearly than you.

What's your problem with Android? Can't accept that it is simply better than everything else? Well, sorry for you, then. Maybe you should call Google and tell them not to innovate that fast?

Turning your head away or starting to call people "fanboys" whenever there is a discussion about Android is not a solution. Well, maybe it is, but then you should stop looking at phone forums! Just face it, Android is not going to become worse just because you don't like it. And people are not going to talk crap about Android just because you don't like when people say good things about it.

It's not my fault that Microsoft sucks at making phone software. Direct your anger to Microsoft, not me! We all would like them to make better stuff, but unfortunately they just suck. Blame Microsoft, not the "Android fanboys"!

And no, locking out the pathetic pirates would not hurt them much. They breach the EULA, they distribute illegal stuff - they get locked out. Those people would not pay anyway.

Man I can't stand people who advocate illegal stuff and call others "fanboys" just because their own horizon is too limited...
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You seem to have some reading comprehension problems really. I haven't been advocating piracy, I was just saying that locking people out of Marketplace would be a move that would hurt Microsoft more than anyone else.

And I have no problems with Android whatsoever. I don't hate it, don't love it, I'll use it when it will work for me better than anything else. I just have other topics to talk about apart from it (I know you can't understand it, but simply remembering will be enoug).
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
No, not at all, never ever... I'm sooo sorry.... :(

Yeah there again that's your problem. If you don't want to talk about it, just keep away from this board. What do you expect when you open a thread that says "WP7 is complete FAIL"? Talking about how WP7 is "FAIL" without talking about the competition??? Really??? Did you expect that??? Oh come on... you really have a problem my friend.
[Windows Phone 7 General] cten1:
i think it is a very cool os

however i like google's os is far superior

and can almost can beat apple
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
Dude, this is the part that is making others (to remain nameless) mad. And no offense, but it makes you to come off like a fanboy. Clearly, there are people denying it :D

As to Apple and their folders. Why even bang that drum? Sure, it's pathetic that it wasn't there on day one and even more pathetic that they are bragging about it, but it's not a technical advancement to them. They built a Launcher-oriented UI, and that was their presentation for their OS, which borders on being their brand (and to look at their patents, it's obvious they take their look that seriously). When they make changes, to them it's changing their brand. Folders are a small thing, but something people have been begging for since the appstore opened. You're talking like they are proud of a technical achievement, but to them it's about branding.

You see, they are all starting over...RIM is playing catchup in response to the entire market, but primarily the success of the iPhone (even the interface looks like a knock-off). Also, the Touch version of the blackberry is a new OS, not a modified version of the old one. Palm with WebOS, the Blackberry Touch (or whatever they call it), WP7...And they are all following after Apple and Android. The only Smartphone OS's currently being sold that are older than 3 years (that mark being set by iPhone) is Windows Mobile and Blackberry (if you call it a smartphone).