yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
WP7 would be good enough for mommy. :D

On the other hand, I don't see why she would wait for WP7, when she can get an Android or iPhone right now. Both are just as easy to use and immediately available.

And the power user?

The guy who's been using Windows Mobile for years, patiently waiting for Microsoft to release the big Windows Mobile 7 update?

The guy who feels betrayed because he's been supporting Microsoft for years against all the stupid Apple trolls, until he learned that the OS he's been waiting for will never be released?

Well, he might get an Android phone and discover that this is almost exactly what he's been waiting for.

The same unlimited possibilities, together with a refreshed UI that helps him get things done much more quickly, a useful SDK that helps him create applications in half of the time and a more modern core that doesn't crash like the old WinCE5.2 one.

Could Microsoft have done this? Sure. Would I prefer it if it came from Microsoft. Sure!

WinCE6 underneath, a new SDK and a refreshed UI. Same power and freedom.

That was my dream. Unfortunately, it'll never come true.

Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeP1KCVYeFk

This is what a small MP3 Player company was able to achieve within a year or so! Based on WinCE6!

You say CE6-based Windows Mobile 7 could not have been good? You say they had to dump Windows Mobile 7 and make that crappy, restricted WP7?

You say it had to take them until late 2010 to make a refreshed OS that lacks basic features cause they didn't have enough time to implement those features?!

Think again!

If a small MP3 player company could make a great CE6-based OS with a beautiful UI

and even an SDK

and even a file explorer

and even copy&paste

in 2009, why couldn't Microsoft?!
[Windows Phone 7 General] Dukenukemx:
That's another thing. No matter how many times this thread can mention Android, the real competitor is iPhone. In every way possible, Microsoft is mimicking iPhone.

Why would anyone buy WP7, when iPhone is the same thing? Same thing, but established. Established is key here. It's the reason I didn't switch to Android immediately, because it wasn't established.

iPhone has TONS of applications. iPhone has a huge hacker community. The iPhone is stable.

When WP7 is released, you won't have any applications. There's no telling how hackable WP7 really is. On WP7's initial release, there's no telling how many bugs will exist. As a gamer, more developers are behind Apple's iPhone, then there's going to be for WP7. John Carmack is completely behind iPhone, and he's ecstatic about it.

If I was willing to deal with not having a SD card and not having application freedom, it might as well be from the iPhone. But I like having alternative web browsers, and I don't want big brother telling me what application I can or can't have. I also don't like big brother always trying to combat any hacks done to my phone. MY PHONE!

To me, Microsoft and Apple might as well have an Umbilical cord attached to my phone at all times. Cause it certainly doesn't feel like my phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
I don't know. I guess there isn't an answer.

To put it short: There's simply no place for WP7. It's targeted at the exact same people that use iPhones. But it's not even better than iPhones. Why would anyone buy it?

People who have no clue buy iPhones, cause that's the only thing they know about. And they are happy with it, cause it does so much more than their old dumbphones. Mommy's not going to inform herself about alternatives, when she can simply buy an iPhone and be happy with it. And let's face it: WP7 isn't even an alternative.

People who know a bit more and do inform themselves about alternatives, will buy Android phones, cause their hardware is more up to date and the OS is simply better (not only because it has more features, but also because many things, like notifications, are more well thought through).

Who will buy WP7?

Other than a few XBox or Zune enthusiasts, nobody needs WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
It's actually quite easy. iPhone is a mainstream phone, targeted at those who prefer simplicity over features and don't want to have something as "complex" as a computer in their phone. That's actually almost everybody except for a relatively small group of geeks. And no matter how great and successful the iPhone is, it won't be able to get 100% of that market. Since the market is growing it's just not a zero sum game.

Who would buy an WP7 device? My wife would, she has an iPhone but she's also tired of it. Many of my coworkers would because they think that iPhone is a douchebag thing. Those are people who wouldn't even bother to wonder if it has copy/paste or not. I do care and therefore won't buy one, but nevertheless I'll be watching it closely - with all its drawbacks, it may prove to have one thing done very right - MS is restricting OEMs. If you go to the HD2 forum and read about problems people are having with it, it's almost 100% HTC's fault. It's hard to talk about WP7's real advantages as the platform isn't yet real, but I would easily forgive most restrictions for MS-supplied drivers with OTA updates coming directly from them, assuming it can be jailbroken.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
If Appstore and Android's market examples teach us anything, that's easy to change in no time. MS fart app dev tools allow anyone with minimal knowledge of Photoshop to make apps. We all know that among 175000 iPhone apps most aren't even applications - there are tens of thousands of books, videos and web site clients which are simply distributed as applications. Granted, you can't make a remote desktop client using current Silverlight APIs, but I doubt it matters anything for the general market. Me, I need only two third party apps really if Office, Exchange, music and video playback functionality is already built in: a bookreader and a satnav app.

Games are tricky, I don't believe for a second that somebody will make Assassin's Creed or NFS in C# (Gameloft style cheap Java clones aside). At MIX, MS said XNA "is not for game engines", but I haven't heard anything about what is there for game engines. I suspect there's nothing.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Tell them they can get something much better than the iPhone RIGHT NOW.

No need to wait for WP7.

Why do you think those people will ever hear about WP7, when they STILL do not know about Android? Those people will ALWAYS buy iPhones, cause they don't inform themselves.

And if they ever inform themselves, they will NOT buy a WP7 phone.

Nobody needs to wait for WP7. Get an iPhone now or the new one in July, or, if you want something much better, get a Desire, Legend, Droid... it's a long list. There's simply no place for WP7 in that list.

WP7 is not better than the phones in that list at anything.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, first of all, I don't think that Android is better than the iPhone for them right now. Second, I'm not calling on anyone to wait for anything.

I think that for most people the OS inside the phone is not something that they consider a key decision factor. I don't know too many non-techies who would know that they had WM in their Diamonds. I personally know only one person who has an Android powered device and he's not happy with it, quite vocally, although he doesn't know it has Android either. :)

If we look at the phones in general, it's easy to see why not everybody is buying Android. For me personally, the only Android phone I would consider is Desire, and it's still failing in some areas important for me. With a proper marketing push though, it's quite possible to sell anything to the general public - look at the Droid sales, it was marketed as an iPhone replacement to people who wanted an iPhone but couldn't get it.

The bigger the crowd you are aiming at, the more diversity there will be in people's preferences. So I'm sure there will be enough room for the iPhone, Android and WP7. To say that the latter has no advantages whatsoever is a big stretch, and you know it. WP7 has a much better chance of delivering consistent experience than Android or WM through a tighther spec control, for one. Native media support out of the box ATM seems to be the best in the market. Assessing the way it looks is subjective, but I don't know anyone personally who wouldn't prefer it to barebone Android, most people really like what they see. It doesn't mean that MS won't or can't screw it all up, and what will come out on real devices is unknown, but nobody can say right now that appealing devices aren't possible. For sure it will look different from the iPhone, will come in more flavors, and I see nothing that would make it unsellable. I'm sure no single WP7 device will beat the iPhone, but that's not even necessary.

You wanted an upgraded WM, and you're not getting it. I was expecting it too, and I'm not getting it either. You're seeking for a replacement in the shape of Android, I'm not sure I actually need another WM. Especially when not only drivers but even core functionality like Exchange sync is done by third parties like HTC. I really want to be done with dealing with HTC software, forever if possible. So I'll be watching WP7 with interest. Just as I'll be watching iPhone and Android.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Yeah, cause you're an Android hater. You just can't look at it without prejudices.

Not being biased, it is clear that Android is just as good as the iPhone for non-powerusers and much better for powerusers.

It's just as easy to use and offers pretty much the same variety of apps, that you can get exactly the same way as on the iphone, from the Market. In some ways, it's even easier to use than an iPhone, e.g. because of the non-intrusive notifications.

Add to this the much better hardware and it definitely is better for them.

No, it's not. What advantages does it have over the iPhone? A few Zune or XBox enthusiasts will like it, but everyone else can just get an iPhone.

WP7 is useless, cause it doesn't bring anything new to the table. We've had it all before, it's called the iPhone.

Android, on the other hand, does bring things that the iPhone does not have. Customization, freedom, Adobe Flash support, multitasking...

Typical iPhone buyers will continue to buy iPhones. They're not going to switch away from the phone they know and like.

New smartphone customers will also buy iPhones. It's the only smartphone they know about, and millions of people are there to tell them it's good.

WP7 is aimed at the typical iPhone customer. The problem is, those people do not inform themselves. They just buy what they know about, and this is the iPhone.

And since the media and millions of iPhone users and fans help Apple promote the iPhone, Microsoft will have a very hard time trying to raise awareness of WP7.

No, it's not. I told you before, but you seem to be too biased, thus not listening.

Exchange sync, even multiple accounts (but only one calendar), is supported natively. That is MORE than you get on Windows Mobile.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I don't hate Android at all, I don't care too much for it to have such strong feelings. I hate Android fanboys trolling WM/WP forums, just as I hate Apple or Windows trolls.

Maybe, but that has yet to happen.

Everyone can get jeans from Banana Republic, but Massimo Dutti also exists, along with many others. I don't know what's so difficult to understand about this fundamental fact of life.

And it brings problems the iPhone does not have but WM did - drivers of dubious quality, software incompatibilities, crappy buggy shells, lags here and there, outright crappy underpowered devices, slowdowns over time.

I know very well what you said, I also know what's written on Google support pages and I know what N1 users who are not fanboys say. There were also other points which you find unimportant, but I do, one of them is as simple as missing the hardware that would make me want an Android device. That's not too difficult to understand, is it?
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
What? You're saying there is no better Android hardware than the iPhone?! Are you retarded?

Cause you're not able to understand. I said WP7 offers not more than iPhone and everyone knows the iPhone, so why would anyone buy WP7?

That has nothing to do with Banana Republic.

Simply not true. I guess you've never tried it, so no need to discuss this. Try it, before you talk ****.

You're totally missing the point of this thread. It's about WP7 compared to the iPhone.

Just because you don't want do hear about anything other than your old WM doesn't mean you are allowed to call other people trolls, when all they do is discuss things related to the thread topic.

You are happy with your WM? Fine. Then simply don't read threads that talk about other systems and stop trolling them. This is a thread that discusses different systems. If you don't want to read about different systems, just don't read threads like this.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
There was a point in time when nobody heard about Banana Republic, or Android, or iPhone for that matter. You are a copmlete idiot if you don't understand that.

Crappy Android implementations exist and are numerous out there - Motoblur, X10 have buggy shells, most Android devices have occasional lags, CLIQ is a piece of garbage, many devices have crappy multitouch drivers, there are numerous articles about slowdowns over time, and I've seen them first hand on devices which have been in use for some time. Now it's you who's full of **** and fanboyism denying simple facts. Just like Apple fanboys do.

Re plug-in, if it's not some crap that gets installed on my PC and then posts my corporate exchange data on Google servers, that's great news I wasn't aware of. I'd still need to see if it works really well. If there was hardware to run Android on that I would want to buy, of course. One problem less - great. Maybe in a year or two this will be an OS to consider.

Re trolling, I don't come to Android forums to preach for other phones, denying basic facts. I'm not even preaching for WP7 here. I'm fully aware of its limitations. Yet I'm interested in how the platform will develop and plan to follow its evolution, regardless of whether I'll buy a WP7 device or not, in the nearest future or ever. That makes a difference.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
No, you're a complete idiot if you don't realize the differences.

Re fanboy, you should realize that this thread is not about YOU. It's about WP7 compared to others in general. You are happy with your WM, fine, but that doesn't matter here.

Talking about Android in a thread that is definitely there to talk about different systems, is not wrong. In fact, it's the whole point of this thread.

The only one who's wrong is you, cause you're so full of **** that you're completely missing the point of this thread.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
There are always differences, but the point is that me-too products often succeed and outgrow the first movers. This is not some magic or voodoo, that's just business that can be done, and is done in many areas; Microsoft did that too. Differences matter as well, but there are differences between iPhone and WP7, even though you can't quite grasp them with your narrow frustrated fanboyish brain.

This thread has no point, it's just some guys whom you decided to join whining, *****ing, exaggerating and trolling. Some people here just don't think, some are just trolls who enjoy this kind of conversations, while others are exhibiting childish behavior - "oh, I've been waiting for this candy and they didn't give it to me, so I'll pee all over the place". You being in the latter category. There's nothing wrong with comparisons, there's a lot wrong with denying facts in the process.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Keep talking about yourself, dumbass.

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. If you think you have to come trolling to a thread you don't like, then you are the moron, not the people who created the thread.

Obviously your narrow, frustrated, fanboyish brain can't get over the fact that your ****ty WM is dying and there's NO alternative on the horizon, because Android just doesn't fit into your tiny brain and WP7 and iPhone are both limited crap.

I've used WM phones for ten years, I've used iPhones, Android and Symbian phones. I've used them all. And I'll use whatever works and I'm not going to cling to a dying system or it's crappy successor, when there's better things emerging.

Let's see whether Microsoft can pull out an ad campaign that can compete with millions and millions of iPhone fans promoting their Jesus phone. Maybe, maybe not. But the fact is, apart from an ad campaign, there's nothing that can WP7 make interesting, cause it's nothing but an iPhone clone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I'm definitely not as close-minded as you are, pissed off little fanboy kid. And who told you I'm clinging to WM? Or even opposed to switching to Android? I keep all options open, including the Android one. It's just not there yet for me, and it's not the godsend solution for everyone who doesn't want to have an iPhone as you are trying to portray it here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
You definitely are a lot more closed-minded. Proven by the way you're attacking this thread, just because it talks about things you don't want to hear.

I'm not closed-minded at all. As I said, I buy whatever works, no matter who makes it. And I don't hesitate to switch to something better. And I don't take threads ad absurdum, just because I don't like what they talk about.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Sure you do. You just can't grasp the variety of options that work. Because of that little fanboyish box that you live in.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Who's the one who owns phones running all kinds of systems? I have an iPhone, an Android phone and a WM phone.

What do you have? How do you "grasp the variety of options" if you're denying to at least try something other than your WM phone, that apparenty is the only thing that fits in your tiny brain?

Have fun with your Windows Mobile phone. Keep it until you die, if you're happy with it. Nobody says you must not keep it. But stop trolling threads about other things, because the world is moving on.

If a thread doesn't fit into your tiny WM-only world, just don't read it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I have a WM phone, and my wife has an iPhone. I don't own an Android phone because I don't buy stuff I don't want. There hasn't been an Android OS version and phone hardware that I would like to have yet, and owning a platform isn't a prerequisite for knowing its benefits and drawbacks. After all, you're judging WP7, aren't you?

Now about options. Anyone with an IQ over 100 can make all the three platforms you mention work for them. They all have limitations and problems though, and you'll have to sacrifice something for something you'll get. So if you're seeing Android as "the only" option, you're either intellectually challenged or a narrow-minded fanboy. Easy and simple.

And again, I'm not clinging to WM. HD2 is my last WM phone. What I'm getting next is an open question. I'll need to see the iPhone 4G, Froyo on a GSM Evo or similar, as well as whatever will come out of WP7 at the time it gets copy/paste. Then I'll decide. That's much more open minded than your fanboyish "NO alternative on the horizon", kid.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Dukenukemx:
A pair of jeans have about as much in relevance to this discussion as my balls do.

Jeans are a homogenized product, like so many others. It's no different then going to the store and buying milk, or looking at gasoline from different brands. Sure it's a different product, but there's nothing tangible to really distinguish them apart.

One person could say they don't like the color of the jeans, or maybe they hate the fabric. We're talking about operating systems that have clear differences. One has SD card support, or can't have alternative web browsers.

If we were talking about the color of the phone, or the style of the UI, then it would be similar to buying jeans. Unfortunately, there's a lot more to it then that.

There's a few things you mention that is agreeable, and there's some things that's completely opinion. But, you mention problems that would require you to have used an Android phone.

Crappy buggy shells? Lags? Slowdowns? Is this personal experience, or is this from another friend of yours?

I've used Android, and I have real issues with it, but nothing like what you're mentioning.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Why "unfortunately"? There's certainly more to it than that, and I never claimed otherwise. The color and style of UI, the shape and feel of the phone, these are things that are important when a consumer chooses what to buy. This is at least one thing where WP7 will be different from the iPhone. Remember where this analogy came in? It was in response to an argument that there's no reason whatsoever for the average consumer to consider buying a WP7 device when there is the iPhone which they will buy in 100% of the cases. No more, no less. There is more to it than just the UI, but this is an obvious difference, so it's the easiest to talk about.

I've had experience with two Android phones, a Hero and a CLIQ (or DEXT, I confuse the two). The latter was just slow all the time. Hero did have significant slowdowns every once in a while. Both were not brand new systems, they had been used for some time by their owners. I haven't experienced Snapdragon devices long enough to judge, but have seen numerous mentions of the fact that there are "inexplicable" slowdowns in menus popping up, and X10's shell together with MOTOBLUR are generally mentioned as slow and buggy. I've read articles where authors were giving advices to users on how to deal with the fact that devices were getting slower over time. Users argued in comments about reasons and ways to alleviate the problem, but nobody ever claimed the very fact didn't occur. Like I said, I've seen it first hand as well.

Now, you may say that you don't have that. Maybe, just like I never had the SMS sending problem on my HD2. It doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist though. And there were other things I mentioned, as long as problems I didn't mention that you know better. Does it disqualify me from judging Android? Well, not to the point that I can't make a conclusion that it's not a perfect OS which is a solution to all the world's problems, and not in an Android vs. WP7 discussion either, as nobody has any experience with the latter. I can also easily judge from my previous experience and knowledge that any platform in which OEM software plays a crucial role like it does in WM and Android is prone to problems of this kind. So in this area WP7 may have a big advantage over both WM and Android if MS stick to what they announce. It may also have an edge over the iPhone in that it will still offer hardware variety to consumers. That's another difference apart from UI. It may be complete buggy crap by itself though, sure, I don't know that. But there's quite a lot of appeal for me in the concept though, and there is non-zero probability that it will be done right. Whether this will outweigh the downsides coming with the lockdown I have no clue. But neither do you.

I know that Android offers a way to solve this by unmatched customizability, and for an advanced user there are effective ways to deal with many OEM-related problems. In this regard it's a definite ugrade to WM. Yet not every problem is easy to solve, and I frankly have no desire to deal with it. I probably would, if it did just a little bit more natively and came in hardware I liked. But hope not to.