yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] ari-free:
I'm a casual Office user. I would like to use a phone as a kind of pocket laptop. I can understand not having the creation of huge pivot tables on a phone. But if you're going to have things like SQL or Sharepoint server on the phone then it would make sense to put more priority for c&p and a file system. I mean, these are the basics.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
I remember seeing a complete file manager hidden for general access but apparently present and screenshoted, it was long time ago.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
It was in the emulator.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I'm hoping Resco comes to an agreement. They made a wonderful file explorer and I'm sure they will again...
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
I'm still wondering what file-system they would explore :p

Is it so hard to accept that not everything today is NTFS?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Uhm, TexFAT? What's the problem?
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
What you guys don't understand I think is what I mean by "file system access".

Having a file explorer is nice, but noone really wants to move files around on a phone all day. I don't care about the file explorer.

What I want to be able to is drag&drop or download files onto the phone and have them recognized autmatically by the apps, like the music player, an ebook reader and so on.

You know, like Android. Cause there's no easier, faster and more logical way of putting files onto the phone. If you've ever owned an iPhone, you probably know how much it sucks that there is no file system access, because every app has to bring its own method of downloading content onto the phone. With Android, it's a simple drag&drop, or if you want, you can download files from the web and so on. And you never have to worry about where those files are on Android, just drag&drop or download them and the system does all the rest.
[Windows Phone 7 General] blanket:
just wondering

is sony creating something for wp7?

i don't own an xbox, but i own a ps3
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Okay, I will admit I do see your point in that they have made comments about including it. I do agree that they understand the issue and it's not a priority and they want to rush a product out the door. Also, I would say for quite a few it is JUST a "nice to have" feature and not critical. But, for anybody that does a lot of document editing on the go, it is pretty damn important!

I guess what pisses me off, in particular, is that they are essentially releasing a beta product and calling it "version 1.0" (or version 7, lol). There are so many features cut for time and release date. C&P being one of those features. Sure, it'll show up in a service pack... but how long will that wait be? I need to do business work now. I can't commit my company to a beta product and just wait and see. Given the choice if I'm ready to buy in Nov/Dec/Jan, I will be buying Android. (EDIT: Inb4 'Android's C&P implementation sucks')

That's the point of still complaining about C&P, IMHO.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
thx1200: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=730283

Now shut up about copy&paste.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Yes, that, or at least iPad-like way of manually selecting which application you want to use the file with. Pickers/choosers would work, too. Of course there also needs to be a way to open files sent in emails and to download them from the internet (not within my application's webbrowser control, but simply using the default browser). And so on.

Well it doesn't have lots of features, so you can call it crippled, but it doesn't make it a beta. If you are pissed off by such things you should be pissed off at Google for calling yet another beta "version 2.2".
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
You make it sound as if Microsoft did not have the past three (or more) years to figure this out. They decided on WP7 at the very last minute and gave it an unrealistic deadline.

I personally think they would have been better served by bleeding a bit more in the short term (not as if MS doesn't have money to spare) and get this thing right and release it a year or two later. So what if WM loses more market share? WP7 is brand new. It's not like they are trying to save a dying platform. They let WM die and are replacing it completely.

But I suppose they made the calculation that there may be enough early adopters who won't care that it's a rather incomplete OS, because it can do the basic 'mobile device' things of play music, get email, make calls, update facebook, show me a map. And then they threw in games because.. heck why not? Zune already makes use of XNA, so it probably wasn't much work to port that in.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I disagree that it's a beta product. Beta implies poor quality and bugs. It seems like the build given to people to test is already beyond beta quality. Just because it doesn't have every feature on the planet doesn't mean it's beta. How many first generation products have every feature that version 3 had? Microsoft is doing it the right way. They're getting version 1 right and then going to add more later. It is extremely important for the foundation to be sound before piling other stuff on top.

I really don't think it will be long before we see a release that includes C&P. At the bare minimum I would expect a release schedule similar to Xbox 360; medium updates biannually and significant updates annually with small bug fixes in between. At first I would guess that they'll come even faster. Ed Bott's "within 90 days" comment is probably on target.

Maybe this is just the cynic in me but maybe they're keeping a few things out of the first release on purpose just so that they can release it soon after and say "hey look! We're committed to the platform and releasing updates often! And they actually get pushed down to peoples phones quickly! Take that Android!"
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Metro is high contrast Windows 95, but with a much larger font and hubs.

http://www.microsoft.com/msj/0899/logo/logofig06.gif

Hubs are overrated. For example, I struggle to find much of a difference between a media 'hub' and a just traditional media 'player'. The main difference seems to be the shortcut list and sliding panels, which might be really pretty to some people (I'm not convinced) but it's really not extremely different than what we have now.

As for your campaign against C&P and multitasking... We can't mention it? Why? Because you know it's a great huge missing feature? I can give you C&P because they said it will come someday. Fine.

But you've already proven you don't know what multitasking means since you seem to think that it requires two windows to be present on the screen at the same time (I take it you've never used any Unix variant or Server Core, because you don't seem to see any value in any sort of background processing aka multitasking). Sure, MS apps may do it, but no third party app can. And that's a big deal if you want to use a third party RSS reader, or media player, or remote desktop, or anything that has to keep a port open, or anything that needs to sync/update/process/render in the background.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Feel free to explain to me what type of background services you would have for any application you could imagine to write.

Here's the hint: There's no socket API (yet, it comes with Clipboard and Background serv.... oh wait!), so you can't actually write any application where it's relevant, hurrayz!
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
I think WP7 looks like a beta because of crippled functionality.

I start to cynically think that the main GAIN WP7 has it's the facebook integration in contacts :D

So many steps back instead.

I was exctited in the beginning. Now I start to turn away......
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
CE makes heavy use of regitsry. WP7 is based on CE. Office for WP7 is native code, as is Zune and other bundled apps. Clearly, MS is not quite dogfooding their silverlight API... And while I think Silverlight on web is pretty boss when used with ASP.Net and so on, I find it like programming from the inside of a locked closet for anything close to 'desktop' experience. But I digress.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Try Android instead then, or Objective C for iPhone -- you'll come running back :p
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Dude, you need to work for Apple. That sounds a heck of a lot like Steve Jobs on the antenna problem! I'm sure you could get a job there with your excellent people skills and incredible vision for limited use devices of the future!
[Windows Phone 7 General] the fight:
Incomplete OS?

yesh, thats not really fair at all.

If you buy an OS for any device, knowing that they will push out upgrades to add more functionality to that OS, does it make that OS incomplete? Seriously think about that...if we are talking about Bada or a Linux Distro that doesn't have all the features the community is looking for off the bat, is it considered to be a failure/waste? Is there nothing to be said about a software giant consistently updating its OS to add features rather than hide them away?

***

In the long run, the general public became enamored with the concept of having an app for everything. the iPhone protects non-power users from their own stupidity (how many iPhone users actually use the phone to its full potential?) by locking down certain elements of the OS. If that's what the market leader is doing, its only natural that others will follow.

The positive (for WP7) here is that the look and feel of the iPhone's UI is starting to feel a little dated.

***

My opinion about WP7 is still quite shaky...but i find it rather difficult to count MS out of anything that has a screen on it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I'm not sure that's a very high priority thing for most people. On-device app stores are so popular that I'm pretty sure a typical response to "This Android doesn't have an office suite" would be "is there one in the app store?" Then it's just a matter of if that bundled app suite offsets the cost of a third party one.

I think a few years ago, bundling was SUPER important. Today I'm really not convinced. That's not to say you shouldn't load up your device with a great built-in bundle of useful software. I also don't think a complete blank slate OS would be popular either.

I'm just saying that I think Office in particular is not a huge advantage, as opposed to missing a decent media player, or missing email functionality. I don't think it will give WP7 a big competitive edge over Android/iPhone who both don't have office suites as a core feature.
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
You mean there isn't a usable folder structure? Google does this on the desktop too and on gmail: minimal organization, just search with non-hierarchical tags. Might work for some people, but has a lot of problems for advanced uses. Folders are much better for people willing to organize their files. Plus they are there on the desktop: say you have organized your music, or ebooks, or pdfs on the desktop with folders, then you'd want to carry that over to the phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chmckay:
What he meant is that you can drag and drop your files into the folder structure of your memory card. Typically, each app that writes/reads the memory card will place their files into a separate folder.

For example, I have a folder called Music and each album/artist has their own subfolder. The same with my images. I have them grouped by wallpaper, backgrounds for apps, etc. Most programs are smart enough to scan the entire card looking for what they need or they will read their own folders, just like desktop apps.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Yes, there is. You can install a file explorer on Android and mess around with your files, but that's not important (except for geeks). What's important is that you are able to fill your phone with content from anywhere, whether you drag&drop it from your PC or download it from the web - and the system does all the work of indexing and creating the libraries for you.

That's very different from WP7 and the iPhone, where you need a desktop client to sync with. Not only do you have to install the software, but it also can only sync certain files, like music, but not the files needed by other, third party apps, like an ebook reader for example.

Those third party apps need to bring their own mechanisms for getting content onto the device, since you can't simply drag&drop the content from your PC, because there's no access to the file system. That sucks.

No, the apps don't need to rearrange the files. They just create their own libraries, like the music library, the pictures album and so on.

No matter where I save a file on Android, the music player, the gallery, the Adobe reader etc. will all create their own libraries and I don't have to do anything.

Just let me drag&drop and download files onto the phone and the OS do the rest. That's all I want, but apparently I'm asking too much...

One thing is for sure, there's no easier way to do this. It's so incredibly convenient in Android.

Use an iPhone, then an Android phone (or the other way round) and you'll see just how important file system access is for the user experience. The way the iPhone handles this (which is: it doesn't) is incredibly annoying, whereas on Android it's so easy.

That happens on Android, too. If you download a file and open it, or open it in a file explorer, you get asked what app you want to use (IF there are several apps that are able to open the file). You can of course also set apps as standard. That's how it should be, obviously.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
What's starting to sound ridiculous in this thread is these people saying "blah blah blah, shut up about copy and paste!!!!"

That sounds stupid.

It's like Microsoft releasing GameCube when PS3 and HD Wii are out. Then smart people see this and give Microsoft the middle finger. Then you come along and say, "shut up about it!!!" and give stupid excuses that seem to ignore that things should be perfect upon release date.

You don't release a TV that doesn't get sound on channels 25-48, do you?

You don't start selling a car without a rear windshield, do you?

Windows Phone 7 would not be considered incomplete if it was 2007. Well, it's 2010. So get it right. PERIOD.
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
Yes, this is the right way to do things (of course it should be a user option whether to use these libraries or actual folders). Nothing revolutionary of course: it's how WM works, how rockbox music players work, how PCs work. If the OS takes over the process of creating these libraries, even better.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
It's more like Microsoft selling a new Xbox 360 without a Blu-ray player built in. Doesn't seem to be killing sales. People said iPhone was incomplete because WM already had copy+paste. That didn't stop it from being a success. But keep complaining about it. It will definitely make C&P get here quicker. Do you also yell at a pot of water when it doesn't boil fast enough?
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
That's because people didn't buy the iPhone for reasons that would need copy and paste. They bought it because they think they need it to look cool or look like they know anything about technology (little do they realize...). It's a toy. You don't buy a Power Wheels jeep and expect to use it to commute to work, do you? I don't expect toys to have copy and paste and neither do the sheep that flock to buy them.

A Microsoft product, I do expect that however.

You seem to think that if items are successful, that's the be-all-end-all argument. It's not. The US voted in George W Bush twice. Britney Spears and Lady Gaga went platinum. CLEARLY, there are a lot of idiots on this planet and success has nothing to do with quality and function. Just because it's successful, doesn't make it any good.

People are also failing to see the logic here on another thing. Take the same phone, the SAME EXACT phone. Label one Apple. Label the other Microsoft. The Apple one will sell 10 times more. I hate Apple, but it's true.

You don't make money opening a pizza shop across the street from successful pizza shop.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
So true, so true.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Now, yes. But not when the iPhone launched. If you can't understand why the iPhone is successful, and no it's not just because of slick marketing and blind apple love, you're in denial. A nice long feature list is cool for the geeks but kinda meaningless if the UI and other aspects suck.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Now is not three years ago.

When the iPhone launched, it did enough. Most people only knew featurephones, for them the iPhone was something special.

Those days are over.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Wrong, the slick marketing played a major role.

The Motorola Razr was successful because of this. Remember "Slim, Sleek, Sexy".
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Actually, go ahead and send me those features, and I can tell you how other phones had all those 3 years before Apple did. But then I'd be wasting my time, because you can't even see past the gimmick either.

iPhone popularity to geeks made absolutely no sense to me (and still doesn't). It's like someone who's life is cars going out and buying a scooter.

Microsoft needs some of that slick marketing. Chicks in bikinis, talking animals, and some controversial dirty joke ads. That would take care of it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Slick marketing and a UI that any idiot could understand.

That's not enough anymore today.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
another problem the UI sucks. Yeah after the home screen its gorgeous.

The home screen is freaking hideous.

Another point:

Way too many swypes. I'm irritated already.

Sent from my Hero CDMA using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I just noticed this post and you're sooooooo right. The Razr was exactly what everyone was fawning over because of advertising!

Back then, I had my Treo 600.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
That's my point. iPhone beat the pants off WM, Blackberry, etc without the long feature list. Even today, WM probably has a longer feature list than iPhone but that hasn't gotten it very far.

But the iPhone is successful because of the entire user expierience. It is reliable, fast, attractive, and has just the right features that most people care about. You don't have to worry about tweaking the registry, opening the file browser and installing several cabs and soft resetting after your phone hangs randomly. You don't have to worry about your phone dieing at 2pm because some app had a bug that caused it to nuke your CPU. If there's an app that you want you know exactly where to go get it. You know when you tap the screen it's going to actually respond and respond quickly. It does what people need it to do and it does it reliably (well except make calls because AT&T sucks lol).

I hate the iPhone as much as anyone here but you're delusional if you think the actual hardware and software did not play the lead role in its success. Of course the advertising and overall coolness factor helped immensely but it wouldn't have been a success if the software and hardware were crap.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ari-free:
The iphone was able to leverage the success of Apple's itunes/ipod domination. It also had safari, a browser that was tested and proven on the desktop. That's why it sold millions even before it had any apps. IE on winmo was such a failure that it was replaced with Opera as the default browser on HTC -something that you can't even imagine happening on the PC.

The other thing to remember is that since there was a long period of time before the iphone had any apps, when the app store was opened up, there was lot of demand for apps against a very small supply. That made the first devs to get in very rich and that news spurred a 'land rush' of gold diggers looking to make a fast and easy fortune.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
@RustyGrom

So you see.

iPhone experience is great, so no matter how many less features it has, people buy it massively.

As you wrote, WM still can do more.

So, the campaigns plus a special position Apple has in terms of hardware producing, helped a lot.

There's definitely fashion for having iPhone.

:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
The thing is, WP7 actually can do more than the iPhone. For instance, that AT&T won't be the only carrier in the US ;)

That's a huge feature!
[Windows Phone 7 General] paperclips:
Talk about making a subjective opinion fact. I for one, love the home screen. You honestly should have seen it coming with the Zune HD.

Too many swipes? It doesn't require much more than the iPhone or Android really except with those it's more going back to the home screen and launching more apps or constantly going to previous pages. It's either button presses or swipes and I prefer swiping. For the home screen you scroll up and down, on the iPhone or Android, you constantly swipe left and right. For apps on iPhone and Android it's up and down or you go to the menu, with WP7, it's up and down then you scroll left and right for different headings. I prefer WP7 because instead of going to a main menu, I can just go left or right.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I think you're missing the point. "You don't have to edit the registry" is not a reason why someone buys this product. If you're truly a techie, you WANT to edit the registry because it's about control over your technology and customizing anything you want.

You can say that hardware and software played a role but Apple has never invented anything. Keep in mind, multitouch was in existence for years before the iPhone. How come none of those products sold a lot? Video calling was in existence for years? How come none of those products sold a lot?

And for the "combination" argument so many rely on for the iPhone: Here in Rochester, NY, they have something called the "garbage plate". It's 2 hamburger patties on top of mac salad, home fries, maybe beans, and topped with excessive amounts of ketchup, mustard, and meat hot sauce. That's Rochester's signature dish. They claim this is so original to Rochester. Is it innovative? NO! Any redneck can combine these ingredients just like any other slob.

Here is why the iPhone has made money:

Manipulative Advertising

Cognitive Dissonance

PERIOD.

Now back to the topic at hand. It will come down to advertising and I really hope the MSFT has something up their sleeve for WP7. Could they PLEASE make some commercials that are really funny??? It seems to me that they are so afraid of taking shots at Apple/Google, but that's how you make it in this business!
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Because the software was utterly ****, had no utility software (application markets, iTunes store, iTunes desktop client) to compliment it.

The iPhone wasn't anything new, but it was the first time someone combined all the factors into a uniform solution. All the crap you got before wasn't uniform, and gave a "geeky" look'n'feel.

Apple provide products where every little detailed is accounted for. This sells, specially in the period before the financial recession where the higher middle-class had piles of money to burn on "lifestyle gadgets".

The iPhone introduced smartphones as a lifestyle gadget, where before it was a business tool. This was the magic trick.

The "Metro" design and how WP7 in general is branded and advertised, it's also a meant to be a lifestyle gadget, where as a bunch of the old grumpy Windows Mobile users in this thread still want to see it as a business tool.

However, what Microsoft does is to try and combine the business tool with the lifestyle gadget -- something Apple can't do (and Google don't know how). And I think they'll be quite successful with that strategy.

In the US. Most civilized countries have forbidden advertises where you bash the competitors products directly. It's unethical, and civilized consumers would want informative adverts, rather than "buy ours, because the others suck".