yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
I'm totally torn between excitement regarding WP7

and the fear that it will be another shiny product

with serious limitations compared to CURRENT WM6.5.....

Which will give bigger sales but nothing for extremely demanding users.

Limiting possibilities will be always beyond me,

why to take away things which are good.

I really like WM6.5.3 and would rather develop this.....

Anyway WP7 looks attractive, just hoping homescreen

can be more interesting, those coloured squares look a bit boring.

I also wonder - just wonder - if succesfull UI doesn't need a bit more graphical elements, 'cos this text based look can be boring....

I don't want to switch to Android, but the question is if WP7 can really develop through time ADDING multitasking, copy & paste......
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
You're still letting yourself be fooled if you think Android style multitasking and copy&paste is the most important missing features of the phone.

I mean, what's wrong with you people? If you ever had someone analyse how you use your current phone, you would most likely find you don't use these features at all.

Windows Mobile is far more limited than WP7, mostly because of a ancient OS, and uninteresting phone hardware (with no specific hardware requirements, at least in comparison.)

So stop being so bloody blinded by the anti-hype and high yelling idiots.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Heh but I agree in most part!

There are so many things WP7 will do great while WM6.5

cannot, sure!

But mate, don't be silly either, please.

I use copy & paste million times a day including this posting,

as well as multitasking (like I can download stuff from web when answering sms which just came).

So I'm really positive about great WP7 changes as well

I believe those things missing are f...ckn cruical.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
wp7 will be a market failure. Sells will be slow, and reviews will be terrible.

any bets?

No matter how great the devices are or how good the OS is, it wont sell.

Sent from my Hero CDMA using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
MS has said on numerous occassions no memory card (yet?). The Dell likely has an internal memory card of 8GB, but it is not removable (or, at least, not user servicable, but maybe removable by warranty-voiding disaessmebly or authorized service center -- we don't know yet). I hope they prove me wrong.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
See my above post about the fanboys. Designing a system to the 70% crowd will work great for the 70% crowd. But to get truly innovative apps, you need to allow for things you can't predict. WP7 supports all the major things that are out right now, but leaves no room for a very creative new way to use your phone outside of rigid paradigms MS has set forth. This is why iPhone is playing catch-up to Android now and why WP7 won't even be a blip on Apple or Google's radar when it comes out.

I am dealing with it. My way of dealing with it is to tell MS they are Doing It Wrong (TM) and fending off fanboys who are increasingly getting like the Apple crowd, quick to accept whatever crap is handed to them, without ever critically analyzing it or realizing the potential that there could be if a system was opened up.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
You really have no idea what you are talking about. I can concede that you don't multitask. Why can't you accept that many of us do? Let's see... Six apps running right now. I was just switching between my RSS reader, file explorer, and browser in one click. With WP7, it's back button, swipe left, launch app, back button, swipe left, launch app... Each time the app can't do stuff in the background (such as loading a page or syncing my RSS), so when I refocus the app on WP7 I have to wait... And there's no file explorer (or file system) at all, so that's a moot point.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Aturayd:
The WP7 supports memord cards as long as they are NOT REMOVABLE BY THE USER and thats mainly for technical reasons. WP7 uses something called a Unified File System where it takes the storage from different memory locaitons and makes it look like one logical drive to the user. So a program could conceivably be half on the memory card and half on the internal ROM memory. Having a replaceable memory card would make it impossible to use this solution. Android does it by keeping the logical drives separate, but I dont think microsoft wants to do this if its going to be syncing music over zune software.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
It's more like a 98% crowd. Sorry, there's just not many people that have the same requirements as you. If you want to do that, Microsoft will continue to support WM6.5 and Android has those capabilities. WP7 will likely get more multitasking capabilities in the future, a-la iPhone. And no, before you guys get all worked up about MS copying Apple, they're not doing that. It already has 3rd party "multitasking" for media playback.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I currently own a TP2 in which I have always ran the stock ROM and will continue with it for some time. With Windows Phone 7, it's almost a given that I will not be running stock ROMs in order to get what I want.

As someone that attempts to follow the rules and play nice, it's forcing me to go against the terms of service and EU agreements. I find this equivalent to the US' prohibition of alcohol in the early 20th century. It's going to make the average Joes into violators of rules/laws/whatever you want to call it. That's a problem.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
No, the problem is the average Joe won't do that. The average Joe will just move on to another device and OS.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
You might be right about that, but I wonder if there's a lot of people out there like me who don't really have any experience with Android and because of that, I don't trust them quite yet.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Average Joes don't even understand multitasking, nonetheless require it. They just want to use their phone to check their email, browse the web, listen to music, play games, etc. WP7 does all of that extremely well. If you made a list of everything that 90% of the population uses an android, WM, or iPhone to do, you'd find that WP7 covers all of this.

So yes, average Joes won't hack their phone. But they also won't have a need to do so.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I've said this a thousand times and I still believe it. This entire thread is meaningless except for this: ADVERTISING.

If they have a good/interesting ad campaign, the phone will sell. If not, the phone will bomb. MS is historically terrible at advertising (although I did like their little Windows Phone app buddies commercials).
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I don't think it's entirely advertising but it will definitely play a big role. But I agree, most of their ad campaigns have sucked royally. The only ones I can think of that has done rather well is the "Windows 7 was my idea" and the "Laptop hunters". Hopefully that agency/team will work on these. Maybe they'll just do the same theme? "Windows Phone 7 was my idea". Hah, I hope not. The Kin ones weren't horrible but they didn't show off what you can do with it enough. This is one case where they need to really be like Apple. Their advertising is probably the best around, of any company.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
The thing is, Microsoft have the resources to make proper advertising, combine it with the Zune service, and Windows Live, and in general create a phone the average consumer wants badly enough.

It'll be a Windows version of the iPhone -- and minded towards the 90% who prefer Windows as OS. I'm sure it'll work out just fine.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
That's not multitasking. All you mentioned there will work absoultely fine with tombstoning. But I guess you're to bloody stupid to understand that.

And you don't need a filesystem. What the hell would you use a filesystem on a phone for? It's absolutely meaningless.

One thing is absolutely certain: You do not represent the average consumer.

So stop ****ing pretending you are. When you don't even understand what your actual personal requirements are (as just proven, you don't even know what multitasking actually is) -- then it's time to shut up and think the builders actually know more about the users requirements than yourself.

Have you ever read a single piece of usability study, or ever performed one yourself, in relation to either software or hardware design?
[Windows Phone 7 General] gerryjoson:
You jest, surely!?

So the suspended applications will still do what they were doing before they were put in their paused state will they? eg downloading, syncing.I haven't bothered trying to find out yet?.

Please post a link to your usability study, I would really like to read it, considering I'd never even seen your name before a couple of weeks ago and your telling someone who generally knows their stuff that they don't know what they're talking about, it should be an interesting read.

While your at it, post a link to the statistics as to what constitutes an average user for windows mobile or presumably WP7, I feel left out, I've been buying at least two ppc/wm models a year since 2003 and have never been surveyed by MS or any OEM....preferrably nothing from those c jerking blogs on msdn please
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
The paper I wrote, in which we conducted a usability study of our product, is not public available (and also in Danish, heh). But I was merely questioning if the quoted ever had read one in the first place.

Also statistics about opinions are rather useless. You would however find that the Metro style layout is considered intuitive by almost all reviews of it, which is a huge pointer towards the usability of the platform in general.

Here's a nice article, that if you bother to actually read it, you might get why simple is good, http://informationarchitects.jp/the-interface-of-a-cheeseburger/

Yes. And there will be some form of background support, ie. listening to music and having your GPS turned on at the same time. Pretty much in the same fashion as iOS 4. Oh, and that's a very successful platform, just for the record.

Multitasking simply don't make sense in a one-application-at-the-time environment. When you can't display two applications next to each other, multitasking don't make sense. Tombstoning (state saving) however, does.

And that way you also avoid insane battery use, and memory issues -- two major problems on the Android platform.

I think it would be nice if the people who dislike WP7, would go buy themselves a Android phone, and go troll the Android forums.

Then once you find out you actually don't want the features after all, and your "must have" features are killing your phone, and your options as a developer, you'll realize the model Microsoft picked is much better for everybody.

Some of us been there, that's why we're vouching for WP7 -- it'll offer a as-rich-as-the-iPhone platform with a less restrictive marketplace, have a state-of-the-art interface, and the best possible developer tools available.

And it'll most certainly, be the best platform on the market for mobile games -- which is btw. a pretty huge market, and growing rapidly today.
[Windows Phone 7 General] q123456:
gee. folks, calm down...

We will see if wp7 will be total failure or not. From my point of view it's disaster.

I do not want another iphone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
Heh, you exactly represent here this stupid mentality,

- if you just don't imagine something personally for having any sense, it's senseless for others too.

You just don't get it. That's why Apple had to bring back some usability and functiona even if they thought before users are so stupid they don't need it.

You think that the best way for future is to limit the user. And this is the concept which just deserves harsh words!!!

A file system? ****, it's for controlling my device

and thousands of files on that!!

Without ability to collectively delete or send files (different files) the device becomes a feature phone.

A crap.

The same with multitasking,the same with normal copy&paste.

So you better stop your meaningless "studies".
[Windows Phone 7 General] doministry:
It won't be another iPhone because in many areas it will be very different

and I think much more advanced.

However I'm also thinking how those upcoming limitations will really affect

my usage.
[Windows Phone 7 General] mnvoh:
No copy and Paste?

Is this the unbeatable thing they talked about?
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I thought the "PC hunters" commercials were some of the most practical ads I've seen in forever. The "Windows 7 my idea" ones were a joke. I remember watching the first one of those and thinking "they'd better do a TON of different ones of these, otherwise this makes no sense". And then over the next 6 months, I only saw 4 of them. That basically makes the entire campaign pointless. In summary, Windows 7 was only based on 4 opinions? If you want to convey that Windows 7 comes from the customer's ideas, then make more than 4 of them. I couldn't tell with the Kin commercials if they were good or not because I'm not a teen confused about the world. I did think they had good ideas catering to their lives and where the phone might come into play.

Gates-Seinfeld commercials SUCKED. I'm a PC ads were okay, but they didn't attach their competition enough to make me proud and them feel like douches.

I'm hoping they come out with something that will make Windows Phone look cool and also be useful for business. You can't attack the iPhones and the Droids without looking cool to the general public and you can't gain a following without appealing to the business user and IT techs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
This is a great trick I see the fanboys do quite frequently. I can't win an argument on the merits of the system itself, so I'll just say that "most people" don't need it, and that's my ace in the hole!

Awesome!

You know what else "most people" don't need? XBox integration and Office. Yet, WP7 has it. You know what most people don't need on desktop Windows 7? The calculator app and command prompt. I mean this sort of argument is pointless. If you develop a product that ONLY contains aspects that 90% of people will always regularly use, you will have a slim, inflexible, boring, uninnovative product.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
It's not that 90% need/want feature X but that the features that 90% of people need/want are included. So user A might want xbox, zune, and calculator and user B might want bing maps, a good browser, and facebook. Both of them are covered. There may be another user, user THX, that demands multitasking and copy+paste that is not covered but falls into the 10% category. All you have to do is look at the iPhone. If they had a keyboard version and was available on more than just AT&T, half of the US would have one already. People don't need a massive feature list. They just care about doing the things they want to do.

And ummm... practically everyone on the planet uses the calculator on their computer. Just thought I'd point that out. But you can't compare a v1 smartphone OS in it's infancy to a v7+ desktop OS that's really been around for over 15 years. Rather ridiculous to even bring that up.

Microsoft has promised copy+paste. Since they've publicly done that, it will probably come rather quickly.

What current WinMo fanboys need to realize is that they're part of an already small but still dwindling market share. They are not Microsoft's target audience. They're going for "everybody else" and hoping that their current users come along. Most of us will. Some of you think you need those "power user" features like a file system and background apps and will jump ship to android. That's fine. But when your phone is unstable, can't last a whole day on a single charge, and doesn't get an update for months because HTC/motorola/etc decided to put a skin on it that doesn't work with the new Android OS, make sure you complain on the Android boards. It's gonna be funny to see all the "Can I put Windows Phone 7 on my android phone?" posts. I used to have a similar opinion. And then I grew up. Now I'm just tired of having to constantly fix something or tweak something. Of course I'll be involved in the efforts to 'unlock' WP7, if only just as a user of the hacked versions. Why? Because it's a fun new challenge. There's some registry settings that say which apps can get backgrounded. Shouldn't be hard to add third party stuff to that list.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
Windows phone 7 will end up like the first zunes. market failures, their advertising sucks.

It doesnt matter how great the OS is(yeah right), no matter how great the developer tools are, the product still needs users.

How is MS failing product brand going to go up against established brands such as IOS and Android?

By the way those brands are moving forward and thinking about more than the 90% crowd.

Sent from my Hero CDMA using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
[Windows Phone 7 General] Ut0p1a:
I hope to revisit this thread after the Holidays and shout out to the creator of this thread that you are wrong..WP7 is not complete FAIL!:D:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I don't think it's right for anyone here or Microsoft to attempt to go after those that buy the iPhone. We learned with the numbers posted with the iPhone 4 that 70% of iPhone users are repeat Apple customers. We all know that fans of Apple (and Apple themselves) are in complete denial about how much they've f*cked up over the past 4 months (see Cognitive Dissonance). With that, you think that they aren't in denial about actually needing copy and paste. You say, look at the iPhone, they didn't care about copy and paste. I say, they are pretending it's not a problem to go along with their usual fanaticism over Apple products. I don't see Windows/Microsoft dedicated customers doing the same thing.

An important thing to remember is that it's not truly about choice. Macs are better at video editing and dumbed-down interfaces. PCs are better for programming, customization, and a network handled by group policies. Make your argument that Macs and PCs can be interchanged but it's completely false. Some things are better for some things. And Microsoft and their products stand for some things. I'm sure they will come through in the end, but this phone should not be pushed as something that could be interchanged with the iPhone. It's just not going to work.

This phone MUST be advertised as something completely different, not just "a pretty phone with apps". Microsoft is too far behind in the race to come in with "a pretty phone with apps". They have to come in with what they know Microsoft and Windows are known for. An OS that can be ripped apart, customized, and used by IT professionals on a network, that's also pretty. If they don't do this, they will fail.

But then again, I stand by my advertising statement from before. Apple does great advertising and as a result, they sell billions of boring, sub-par crap to mindless slaves. So if Microsoft advertises well, then it will be a win.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I merely have used the copy/paste mention as an example of anything that will not be brought from CE5 to CE7.

I do not agree that people are picking up the iPhone because "it just works" nowadays. Now I think they are doing it because of name recognition. They just claim "it just works" when someone accuses them of buying a product just to look cooler than they actually are.

And you're definitely right about enterprise. That's what I want and that's what drives me to a phone. It's the closest you're going to get to a mini-computer, something I wish smartphones always stayed like. I believe file exploration, copy/paste, side-loading, and everything else we've talked about fits all under the enterprise facet.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Huh? CE6/7 supports copy/paste. WP7 supports it at it's core. It just doesn't have any way to do it in the UI.

People pick the iPhone because they know it's easy to use. So yes, the name recognition is a part of it but only because they know what it means. Of course people will pick iPhone and/or dismiss WP7 because of the name but over time that can be changed with proper advertising and a solid platform.

I completely disagree that the enterprise seeks those features. Blackberry really isn't all that hackable and is the clear winner in the enterprise. Have you worked with the average corporate blackberry user? It's typically only management and other select employees that even have them and they're the last people that need/use those sorts of features. What enterprise needs is a way to push policies and software to the devices. They need to be able to remote wipe, etc. In fact, many companies specifically do NOT want copy/paste, file browsers, etc as this would allow for easier data leaks. WP7 provides tight sharepoint and office integration which is invaluable to business users. Side loading is also a feature that most enterprises do NOT want. They want to control what software their users are installing. My company (fortune 100) uses blackberries and there is a push (that luckily isn't going anywhere) to block all unapproved app installation. I'm sure some out there have that in place. And like I said, there has been a good bit of wanting for a more modern OS than blackberry provides. When the US military is looking at iPhones, you know something is up. The only problem is that iPhone doesn't really have the support that they need and is locked to AT&T or else many more companies would've switched already. Don't think that RIM hasn't felt this pressure. BB OS 6 attempts to address this but still falls short of the other three.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Bull****. Utter bull****.

Even more bull****.

There's NOTHING more user friendly than Android. Not even close.

(nobody wants intrusive notifications and having to open apps in order to get important information and nobody wants to type text several times because there's no copy&paste)

That is all. Thanks for your attention.
[Windows Phone 7 General] daniel-t:
What do people not get. Version 1 will not have Copy & Paste, a future version will.

Just be bloody patient. :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Copy and Paste aren't even the most important missing components.

1. File exploration - This is what you'd need to truly get rid of all bloatware, bull****, and to get access to files, pictures, music, and video that you want to pull OFF of your device and use elsewhere.

2. Expansion slot - This is what you'd need in order to store large amounts of anything on your phone, such as GPS maps, music, videos, or complete movies.

3. Sideloading - This is what you'd need in order to not be an idiot and pay $30 for an application that you'll use 4 times a year.

4. Copy and Paste - This is what you'd need to avoid going through IE for every damn thing. I'm sure IE will not have EVERYTHING in a browser, but another one will. Copy link, paste into preferred browser. You'd also need this in order to copy the LONG post you just typed as backup in case the connection gets screwed up.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
iPhone users aren't doing anything functional with their toys.