yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Are we talking apples and oranges? I'm talking about the ActiveSync protocols, as in Push Email from Exchange, not desktop ActiveSync (entirely different product). AS-Exchange is extremely scalable. I've done several deployments.

As for BES and Exchange firewall friendliness, that doesn't make sense. Nearly every firewall in the world has 80 and 443 open. BES requires custom ports to be opened to your BES server to and from the Blackberry central servers, which is much more custom. But this is pretty dumb to argue because opening one or two ports (which both require) is pretty trivial. I was just making the point that it used ports which are nearly always open anyway and required no extra effort (for example, your OWA probably needs 443 anyway).

Getting way off topic here. I think this will be my last post on this topic.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Exactly. I just hate the thought of having to "hack" my phone to get it to run something it should anyway.

Why are so many people aruging AGAINST more functionality? It's insanity. This is why I was saying there should be two modes. Locked for the people who think background processes are bad (and battery nazis who can't stand the thought of their battery draining in 48 hours instead of 49 hours), and open mode for those of us that want stuff to run in the background, load up unmanaged apps, and so on.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
OK, if you're not exaggerating then you're oversimplifying, the result is still misleading and wrong.

They took the most recent CE version, added phone/communications stacks to it, took Silverlight in addition to a new version of XNA, used the typography-heavy UI concept from Media Center, added new elements such as homescreen widgets ("tiles") and panoramic controls for groups of data/apps ("hubs"), added new Office and Exchange with mail and calendar, GPS and mapping application, and, of course threw the whole Zune thing to spice up the mix.

So yeah, it's not a WM6.5 with a new UI layer, but it's equally not a Zune with a changed UI layer. You may say that the result sucks, but it's not a Zune nevertheless.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That's annoying, yes. However, I've been doing it all my life. I've been hacking WM to work properly for me (although recently it's been basically making my own ROMs by throwing away crapware and adding software I found attractive from other devices, I didn't do any performance tweaks or anything of the sort). I'd need to hack most Android devices as well if I wanted a recent ROM or have the Exchange functionality I want or put Sense on a Senseless device (I happen to find default Android look incredibly ugly and dull - just my personal preferences, not an arguing point really). Of course I'd need to jailbreak the iPhone if I considered to buy one, and I'll definitely hack WP7 if I decide to go that route. Sure I'd prefer not to do any of the above, but rather just install or delete applications I want without stupid restrictions. That just doesn't happen unfortunately, and it certainly isn't the only criterion, and an ideal device doesn't exist. So for me it's a matter of tradeoffs, always.

It is insanity indeed. It boggles my mind, but I do encounter lots of people who find trivial things such as file managers confusing. It's hard to understand people.

Indeed. My understanding is that rooting a Nexus One is very simple, and I just fail to understand why it has to be any more complicated for any device, ever. Why does HTC come up with all the HSPL fascism that prevents even such a trivial thing as changing UI language (no, it's not a MSFT thing because Samsung sells multilingual WM devices and has no HSPL thing). Why do they have to make rooting a pain? I understand why Apple may want to have DRM on their phones and why they want to chase after hacks that make apps free, but what the heck is the purpose of locking everything down including filesystem access etc. so severely? Wouldn't it be enough to just, you know, nullify warranty for hacked devices? I don't know which route MS is going to take here. I would make cracking apps a pain but leave some way of opening the system up which would be more difficult than enabling "advanced" mode (just to prevent accidental stuff), but certainly not requiring bootloader hacks and such nonsense.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
If you routinely install every new tweak that gets posted on XDA, you'll end up having to do a hard reset almost daily. Many of them work okay, but an awful lot of people clearly don't bother to do much testing before posting on here.

My point was that it would be nice if the phone worked well enough out of the box that it rendered most XDA-style tweaks unnecessary. Windows Mobile most emphatically doesn't - without XDA-style tweaking it's hideously sub-optimal. I think your average consumer would prefer something that works properly out of the box; the percentage of people who actively enjoy having a phone that doesn't work correctly so they can spend weeks researching how to make it function properly by tweaking is not high enough for Microsoft to want to bother with.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
ok I see! I should have asked one of the newbies. It's just a few hacks to have it done. :p
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
There's a big gap between "just a few hacks" and "hopeless".
[Windows Phone 7 General] jbauls:
Quality control is everyone's responsibility.

As a business owner who comes from three generations before myself that were also business owners, there is no excuse for MS or HTC for allowing such garbage out on the market. Both are to blame.
[Windows Phone 7 General] jbauls:
Well said. I agree.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
FYI this was meant in an ironic way!

Anyway... if someone wants a W7 phone then he obviously agrees with the new concept/policy of MS, and therefore he'd HATE to see the "old junk" ported to the new OS. IMO it's all about choosing the site you're on! When someone hates WP7 and still buys it with the only reason to hack it and makes himself believe it's still a Windows Mobile device, then he shouldn't do this at all. Better let MS rot on it and jump to another OS (or at least keep your good old WM 6.5) and this way give them a statement that not everyone is loving their "great new ****"
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
How about someone who loves some things about the new OS, appreciates the reasons why MS do some others, and hates the rest? And what if someone has this mixed attitude towards other mobile OSes as well? What about someone who doesn't care about taking sides, but rather wants to have a device that works best for him, given a set of criteria?
[Windows Phone 7 General] quicksite:
vangrieg, i honestly have loved reading every single one of your posts... some are mildly combative, others are challenging, others are correcting what you see as misstatements, others are about your ambivalence but overall approval of this new direction.

This may sound like a joke but it it's not. You seem to be the only one here who would be capable of (by virtue of being committed enough) to write a manifesto laying out a complete thesis for "Why MS Has Made A Corrrect Choice Given This Moment of Time in The SmartPhone Marketplace, and Why it's Important Developers COnsider Supporting This New OS"

Maybe it's an amalgam of all your prior posts, but as a ping-pong back and forth in a long thread, your case is not, in my view, potent enough and coherent and unified it its thesis. Thus my call on you to write a manifesto.

Because if not at XDA-developers.com, where else would such a manifesto be written?

There is clearly a large segment of this site who are not in favor of this new direction, plus a bunch of mushy in-betweeners who are always the "wait-and-see-ers" about everything in life, and there are a handful of proponents of this new WP7 strategy, who not only want it to succeed, but also look forward to developing apps for it.

XDA-devs is THE AUTHORITY worldwide on development suitability for Windows Smartphones, so, given your fervor for this new OS, I'd like to see your thesis, organized with technical, marketing, and developer economic success factors all considered.

And no, there is no fee or prize. Just a desire for some closure on this topic in a way that is meaningful and launches the antidote to this thread -- if you believe this strongly.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I guess you didn't realize that Zune is the latest CE + XNA + Media-blah-blah-blah. So you could just as equally say WP7 is Zune + tiles/hubs + exchange/office. Point still stands.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I should have qualified the word "hack." I meant it not in the "heavy power user tweak" definition and more "break into the phone to make it do what I @#!$!@ want" definition. I guess to be more correct, I should have said "crack" but then I'd worry people meant physically breaking open the device. ;-) ;-)

I read the same thing. I'd be fine with voiding my warranty. Or killing access to some of the value-added features that the rooting could be used to exploit. that's fine! But let me customize my device to suit my needs! Don't lock me out.

I don't need child locks on my computers.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Thanks for your appreciation, quicksite, and for understanding my position (which is a rare occasion, to my surprise)!

Yet you're giving me too much credit, both in terms of my determination to support WP7 (I really wish it were what I think it will become, but I don't know when and even if this will happen), and, more importantly, in terms of my theoretical influence on xda-devs. I certainly don't feel like I'm in any position to speak on behalf of the community (moreover, I think I'm a representative of a rather small minority group).

I find the general attitude here ather frustrating - people whine and complain a lot, and I would really want to see more focused discussions about challenges and how to overcome them.

I'm optimistic though - I think that when actual WP7 devices start popping up there will be enough developer and hacker interest in the platform. Right now people are just too shocked and frustrated to see something they were completely unprepared for (and often with a good reason). Hopefully xda will still be a major forum for hacking WP7; if not, there will be other places, although that would be a sad outcome.

It's CE7 vs CE6, a different version of XNA with 3D hardware acceleration support, Silverlight, and all the other things I mentioned. Anyway, if you wish to consider it a Zune it's up to you.

*Shrug* Sure, but they are child locks, why should they scare me?
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
A newer version of the kernel and libraries, a new development tool version, and a new driver? That's your argument that it's not based on the same underlying structure, designs, and existing codebase of the Zune? All the work on WP7 (minus phone support and possibly the shell) is going straight into the next Zune.

Because although you may be able to figure out how to bypass the locks, new locks could be implemented at any time.

I am positive Wp7 will be jail broken. However, I don't want to have to rely on that. When I'm paying money for a device to do something, it should be able to do it.

Now, granted, like quite a few people, I run a custom ROM. I do it because I like the features in the ROM, some of the bundled software, and the custom graphics and so on. However, should said ROM not work, I can go back to factory and still run all the same apps I run now -- it just won't be tweaked quite the same way.

With WP7, if jail breaking doesn't work ever for some reason, you are hosed. The restrictions will still be in place and you'll just have to live with it.

But most importantly, I'm just so god damned tired of device manufacturers creating an amazingly powerful platform, only to lock it down just as a matter of policy (not technology) and provide absolutely zero for the power user. And some of the restrictions are absolutely arbitrary. So device manufacturers can implement their own shell. Fine. But why can't the user install a third party shell? Why? Because Microsoft's marketing department said so. That's it! That's the only reason.
[Windows Phone 7 General] federaly:
Time goes on...

Lot of hate for Windows Phone 7 here and there a legit arguments. I simply just look from the perspective that it is version-1 software and will only get more features and better as time goes on. Simple at that. Most arguments can easily be negated by time. Obviously with things like "censorship" in the Marketplace..well why not get angry at your local supermarket for not selling XXX-porn. Both are considered a Market place. Both sell wares to children and adults. Both "Try" to be your onestop shop for your needs.

IMHO whether people buy now or not they'll most likely buy later. Inevitable things such as 6.5 eventually having no support from manufacture/windows and such.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
When a supermarket opens, there's aren't empty aisles. There's no bread, eggs, cereal, and pasta sauce missing. Why open the store without them?
[Windows Phone 7 General] nathantjuuh:
WP7 sucks balls

isn't it personal digital assistant?
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
Ah the good ol porn argument. Steve Jobs should have just gone for broke and stated that Hitler uses Android phones.

Your argument is not valid because in the real world, I can CHOOSE which store I go to to buy the things I need/want. This is not the case with WP7, there is only one store and if it does not have what you want you are SOL.

Unless of course you hack your phone, in which case you are a criminal, just as you would be when buying illegal products on black markets. Except in WP7's (and iPhone's) case, every market that is not WalMart is an illegal one. Sound fair?
[Windows Phone 7 General] DJTJ:
Dumb post

Where in Haiti did you hear such Bullsh*t, Half your statements are not true, and the other half are plain retarded. First off, Window Phone 7 is a OS and not a device, and will not be governed buy a single device, HTC "ALWAYS" uses standard IEEE usb ports and SD slots, and since Windows Phone 7 will be open-source development for device developers, I'm sure their capabilities will vary.

Sir, please find something else to do in life, Or at least research before you rant.
[Windows Phone 7 General] baam2k:
w7 wil not be a fail.

it will be the opposit .

it will be a huge success realy.

why??

cause the majority of people buying phones like iphone etc are people who dont know anything about phones etc .

they dont wanna instal extra crap and stuff cause for most people its just to difficult .

they want a phone that works out of the box nothing more nothing less.

they dont wanna tweak stuff , they dont wanna go to xda forum all day to look up why this or that isnt working.

they just want easy thing.

and thats why iphone was a success and thats why window 7 will be a success also ..

and microsoft knows that people on xda and other forums , are just a minority, compared to the massive amounts of people who never heard of xda or other forums, and people that dont even know what a rom is /

so in that vieuw ms is doin a great commercial thing.

it might be a problem for tweakers etc but ms like any other company is focusing on cash flow .

besides that im sure when w7 comes out even tweakers find a way around all the disadvantages of w7 .
[Windows Phone 7 General] speed_pour:
I'd like to agree...and mostly I do...but there is a glaring exception to this. Explain the relative success of Android.

Obviously Android wasn't a breakout hit and it's clearly not a dominant leader or anything like that, but it's certainly doing well for being such a hacker-friendly (oriented?) mobile OS...and adoption rates are rising quickly.

There is a place for the entire spectrum. I believe SOME hackability is almost mandatory for the majority of users. If that statement sounds suspect, then just consider that the most common reasons for jailbreaking the iphone (aside from changing networks) were related to doing a short list of very simple hacks like setting the home screen wallpaper, adding a basic feature, or even just getting at settings Apple opted not to expose.

Frankly, if WP7 doesn't allow for some significant mods, it won't be offering anything we haven't already got in other OS's. But there are a lot of great ways MS could set themselves apart from the iPhone and Android, so I wouldn't be too quick to judge them until we can really drill into it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] imauser:
Gush...I hope everything that's written on the first post is not tru(im not calling the author a lier tho!)

Because i'd be really ridiculous if microsoft just intentionally decides to make their latest product full of cr*p iphone like..
[Windows Phone 7 General] MooGoo:
Why is there this constant assumption that an OS cannot be easy to use while at the same time being powerful and customizable? All the sudden these two features are mutually exclusive.

Has anyone ever used desktop Windows? Most people would agree that it is fairly easy to use, yet the ability to tweak, customize and install all manners of software good or bad is never more than a few clicks away, no jailbreaking/rooting required.

Microsoft (and Apple) are just lazy. They could have it both ways if they wanted to, Android is proof of this.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
That's fairly straightforward. Google is paying MOs and OEMs, instead of charging them for their OS. They also share marketing expenses sometimes. Add to this the fact that MS pretty much abandoned the market, and that Verizon doesn't have the iPhone and is promoting "Droid" as a substitute. Think about it for a moment, Motorola Droid is by far the best selling Android device.

Android is being pushed hard through the chain, and you're seeing the result. That's a success, but given how much it costs, it would be a failure for any company apart from Google. Replacing WM isn't worth the hassle moneywise for most players, you have to go way beyond that to justify hundreds of millions spent on a mobile OS.
[Windows Phone 7 General] the-hq:
I've read from quite a lot of people that they are quite fed up with the iPhone in the meantime. Maybe a lot of switchers out there and also people who can't afford the contract fees that come with an iPhone?
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
And what is Microsoft doing? http://pocketnow.com/news-archive/microsoft-to-invest-1-billion-in-mobile
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Microsoft plans to spend a lot, Google is doing it now, the difference seems to be that Microsoft is going for a wider, more mainstream, market, and also plans to do some brand marketing for WP7, not just specific phones, to create pull. For that to work you need uniform look and feel, and a tight grip on the product itself.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
AMEN!! Why don't people understand this? Sure, the hacker community is SMALLER than the general public, but it's still a market. Why drive away that market to your competitor? Fanboys may say "MS doesn't care about you" but they should. We are the ones that are going to write the majority of the software in their app store that are NOT weekend hack fart apps.

I would add that laziness may not be the issue. I personally think it's micromanaging (going too far to protect the brand image), deadlines (obvious), and especially DRM. There are a lot of content providers that may not want to do multimedia partnerships with Apple/Microsoft if their devices are not protected by draconian DRM, because heaven forbid we copy a song from our device to another one of our devices to listen. Yet again, DRM ruins the end user experience.
[Windows Phone 7 General] JAYLO420:
im american and the reason why they(not my opinion) like iphone and andriod is becuz they want a fancy gadget thats not complicated for dummies *). i prefer the htc hd2 because the customization and the fact that i can add music movies(that support all files) and pictures with just a simple sd card never gets old for this american. see not all americans are masochists i broke the stereotype:rolleyes::p
[Windows Phone 7 General] nataraj_latest:
stilll stands a chance

well guys may be all things of wp7 sucks....... the same way the start of Iphone too was really bad but now people have come out with many tricks in it. one of my friends has all apps that u can find in windows and also multitasking too:eek:

yeah, similarly when its released im sure we will have some heads who can find the trick.....;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] gerryjoson:
Excellent point, there's a lot to be said for have an "advanced" check in the "advanced settings"....heck, they could even pop up a warning when activated saying something like...."WARNING...if you are a stupid person, enabling the advanced settings may render your device unusable"

There's lots of things they could have done, but have taken the easiest and most revenue gathering road, it will be interesting to see how fiercely they protect their bastard child from places like xda though, I can see people messing around more with WP7 every time they want to purchase something from the app store and getting OTA updates after they've hacked something, than what they do with WM
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
Yeah...so was I.

BES allows for devices to be wirelessly provisioned with ease. I work in an organization where we sometimes go so far as to have users provision their own devices.

You just add them to BES, click to generate them a password, and the password is automatically e-mailed to them. They whip out their BB, go to Enterprise Activation, type in the password and their e-mail address, and it's done.

You don't have to change the password when your AD account password changes, because all the send/receive mail permissions are given to BESAdmin in AD.

With Exchange Server ActiveSync, you have to input your AD domain (which many users do not know), AD user name and password, as well as the DNS name of your web published CAS, which I can guarantee you almost all users will not know.

Then you have to setup schedules for push e-mail and poll e-mail.

This is complexity that just doesn't exist with BES. With BES devices can be provisioned and totally controlled easily, with Exchange Server ActiveSync you simply cannot do this -- you need SCMDM to do this.

Either you don't know how firewalls work, you work with some poorly-configured firewalls, or you work with crappy firewall products.

NAT is uni-directional. Unless you work for an organization dreamed up by George Orwell, your internal devices can talk to the internet relatively without restriction, so long as the interal device initiates the connection.

Therefore, it doesn't matter that BES uses port 3101, it NAT traverses by making a connection to RIM when it boots, and uses that opened connection to communicate with RIM, and, by proxy thereof, with your BlackBerry devices.

You don't need to open ports on your firewall or reconfigure your firewall, because the connection is outgoing.

With Exchange Server ActiveSync (and SCMDM for that matter), the devices contact your organization directly -- with no go-between -- and therefore you need to "open ports" on the outside. Since NAT maps many internal devices to one (or perhaps more than one) external IP, it has no idea what to do with incoming connections unless you tell it what to do. You need to use PAT (Port Address Translation, more commonly (and improperly) known as "port forwarding") to map these external ports to internal devices -- such as Exchange.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ElCondor:
This thread is a shame for the community.

Come on, we are WM fans, now you are blaming Microsoft for not making a proper OS.

Well you can try it too! Just make an OS, if you think it's that easy. The work they've done now is already great, and we haven't even seen half of the OS!

Also this is very disrespecting to the developers. I am sure they are reading this too.
[Windows Phone 7 General] PeeZzz:
I think slaying off a mobile OS before having even touched a phone running it is a fail.