yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Symbian is open-source, and is a more open platform than Android is.

Wait, what? It offers the most attractive platform on the market, the best development tools, the most thought-out business model, and the best online marketplace. There's all possible reason to develop for it.

Q1 of 2010: Windows Mobile: 7%, Android: 10%. -- So you're saying nobody will development for Android either, right?

No they won't, and no the requirements are perfectly fine. It's not like Android, where the majority of the devices don't have the necessary hardware to run the OS, so the phones lag, and slow down due to leaks in widgets and Android's application lifecycle (it's failed multitasking).

If you think it's locked down, then you're just being blind. A typical Linux zealot who want to use open systems, but don't realize the world upon his feet is as locked down as everything else.

You can keep Android, Meego and Symbian for yourself, the rest of us will focus on the platform with the best business model -- and so far WP7 and iPhone ranks much much higher than Android here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I don't see it as childish. If you think that WP7 failing will bring about changes on the platform that might make the device more attractive to you, it's not childish. It's selfish, perhaps, but not childish.

I've seen posts where some think WP7 failing in the market place will mean MS has lost the mobile battle for good. I highly doubt that. MS is well known for not giving up when they fail. They just keep releasing new versions with new features until they get it right. WP7, despite its name, is not the seventh generation of Windows Phones. It's a complete reboot, while sharing a marketing name (Windows Phone) so it's really a version 1.0, in that respect. So what we know as WP7, IMHO, could "fail" for many releases before MS gives up. It's just their style.

For the record, I don't care if WP7 fails in the market or not. What I care about is it opening up as a platform, because I like developing in .Net and think Silverlight is really cool. But I hate the restrictions, so that makes Java (ugh) on Android look a lot more attractive.
[Windows Phone 7 General] lordcanti86:
I think it's important to remember that while there are no license fees regarding Android, premium Google apps (GMail, YouTube, Maps, etc.) are licensed from Google seperately for a fee. Also, OEMs must take on the brunt of R&D and support costs on their own (which is typical of most open-source solutions). So when you look at the whole picture, the cost difference between making a WP7 and an Android phone is negligable
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Also the cost of getting sued by Apple, etc. Microsoft fully indemnifies their OEMs as part of the Windows Phone licensing.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
You mean those restrictions that Android also have, you're just to blind to see them?

Android is not more open than any other mobile OS. Really, understand it already. It's starting to get ridiculous that so many fell for Google's advertising. Android provides no more openness than iPhone or WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Right, Android doesn't have sd card support, a common file system, true multitasking (not this pause-and-switch crap), changable SIP, unmanaged code execution, background services, easy side loading outside its marketplace, an app permissions model that gives USERS control over what runs, not Google. I'm just blind!

The ONLY mobile OS more open than Android is Windows Mobile Classic. But it's a dead man walking, so that narrows down the choice.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
If you can't make an argument based on the merits, make an argument based on FUD! Awesome!
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Nothing to do with Android.

Actually it don't provide you with more "filesystem" options than WP7 does, except you can manage your SD card contents from USB.

Implemented in a way that makes your phone lag to death. I probably owned a Android longer than most of you, and to hell with multitasking, it's not necessary and only serves to slow down the phone to the point where a cold reboot is needed.

Complain to the Department of Justice. It's a American only problem.

How many applications do you use that requires unmanaged code execution? Let me guess, a few games... and that's because Android don't have XNA!

Which leads to security issues, and a terrible business model for application developers, resulting in a piss poor quality of applications.

Actually Android's application model don't give you any more power than anything else, plus you can't control it for vendor-distributed Google applications anyway.

Google have nearly as much power over Android, as Apple have over the iPhone.

You're letting the "OMG Open Source" crap cloud your vision. It's not good.

There are plenty of problems with WP7, and limitations that's annoying. You didn't mention any of them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
It's not FUD, it's 100% reality. Apple is currently suing HTC over numerous software patent issues in their Android devices. They are NOT suing them over Windows Mobile. Yes, a few of their Windows Mobile devices were named however that is due to hardware designs. Here's the original story... http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-sues-htc-for-infringing-20-iphone-patents/. This lawsuit already is and will undoubtedly continue to cost HTC money. The question is whether this is more than the sub-$20/phone that Microsoft charges for Windows Mobile.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
This was about software keyboards, not IP telephony I guess.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Except that since MS forbids it on WP7, it actually does.

Wrong. Android restricts only the root partition. WP7 restricts ALL file system access. Every app runs in a sandbox. WM lets you tinker with everything (biggest win).

Only if you, the user, run a hundred programs simultaneously on last generation hardware. If you can't handle multitasking, you deserve the WP7 and iPhone model of multitasking. I'll take real multitasking any day so I can actually get sutff done.

Not sure why the DoJ would care about my choice of onscreen keyboard, but okay.

No, I rarely play games. Games are the least likely to need unmanaged code (you answered the question yourself). On WM clasic, over 50% of the apps I run require unmanaged code. There's definitely a valid argument to make that if the managed code environment is robust enough, you don't need unmanaged code. But as long as the underlying OS is all unmanaged and managed code is just wrappers for unmanaged APIs (WP7), that's unlikely to ever be the case simply due to the resources required to implement it. so what you will see if MS supporting the most popular APIs and telling everybody else to tough it out. On the Android and WM classic side, you can do whatever esoteric thing you like whether or not they ever get around to making a java wrapper.

Again, if you can't handle the freedom, you don't deserve it. Enjoy your iPhone.

Except not and also why are you so hung up on google's apps? So they aren't open and freely distributable. ZOMG! Call the whambulance! I could care less about them. This is about the OS, not the bundled apps. If you need all your apps spoon fed to you, again, welcome to WP7.

Considering that I am coming from a WM classic fandom, I'm not exactly sure what point you are making. Open source does not a good OS make, but neither does it automatically make it bad. I'm not looking to hack the source. I want an open API and open system (not open source) that allows me to do what I want with the hardware I bought. WP7 and iPhone won't do that because they have User Interface DRM to protect the stupid from themselves.

Do you seriously, seriously, want me to list AGAIN every bullet point in this thread?
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
It's FUD. Apple is suing HTC over things HTC added to Android (Sense stuff). They are not suing HTC because Android itself contains their IP.

Also, HTC is suing Apple. Apple doesn't idemnify their hipster owners. ZOMG THAT MEANS HTC WILL SUE IPHONE OWNERS AND SKY WILL FALL!

Additionally, I could sue anybody for anything. Unless a court case is actually won, it doesn't mean anything. It's just scare tactics (see: FUD).

EDIT: I should point out that MS's idemnification does not include code you write, only MS written products that might affect you. So that's why this lawsuit doesn't have anything to do with what you are talking about. Maybe it's possible that the mere presence of MS in the game scares Apple, but I have no idea why. It's not like Google is small potatos in comparison.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Yes.

SIP = Software Input Panel

I hate it when jargons collide on the internets!
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
thx1200, I'd suggest you stick with WM6 or jump to android (which isn't as free as you think, still needs to be rooted to do stuff). Most of the decisions MS has made that you disagree with are completely valid. The biggest problems with Android are results of the things you value in a smartphone OS. Many of the native apps on WM6 are only needed to overcome deficiencies in the OS. I will be glad to have a phone that "just works" for once.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
That's just blatantly not accurate. Does sense not exist on their WM devices as well? The lawsuit is rather specific in things it's going after such as the slide to unlock.

When did I say Android users were at risk for being sued? Sheesh. Talk about a straw man.

Yes, HTC countersued but looking at the merits of the case, Apple clearly has much better ground here. HTC's case is thin at best. And they don't have anywhere near the amount of complaints that Apple does. Of course HTC could win. But the fact is, if this was over WM, HTC couldn't care less as it would be all on Microsoft, not HTC. But since they're targeting Android, HTC is on their own. Google has said that they will "support" HTC but that's it. Google and HTC have nowhere near the patent library that Microsoft and Apple do.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Yes, it only covers MS code. But that's precisely the point. Google doesn't indemnify their OEMs of ANY of their code. Why would they not target Microsoft? Because Microsoft has a massive patent library and Apple cannot win that battle. Microsoft has been making smartphones longer than all of them so if Apple were to cite a patent or two that MS is infringing, MS would cite 10 that Apple is. And that's the thing... Google is a very large company but their patent portfolio is rather young and weak in comparison. In addition, Google doesn't legally have a dog in this fight. HTC is getting sued, not Google. Apple knows that if they go after WM on HTC devices, they're going to have to take on MS and HTC. Not the case with Android and Google. And WM doesn't borrow as much from iPhone. Yea, it has a swipe to unlock but it's not the slide to unlock bar that iPhone and now Android has for example.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Sort of like how the iPhone "just works" when you hold it the right way and only do things that Steve Jobs approves of?

The "restrictions will make it better" argument does not pan out if you look at history. All restrictions do is ... well, make things restricted.

Seriously. Do a google search. If you look on WM boards, you see numerous complaints of battery life drain, slow performance, and crashing. If you search on Android boards, you see numerous complaints of battery life drain, slow performance, and crashing. If you look on iPhone boards, you see numerous complaints of battery life drain, slow performance, and crashing. if you look on Symbian boards, you see numerous complaints of battery life drain, slow performance, and crashing. If you look on embedded Linux boards, you see numerous complaints of battery life drain, slow performance, and crashing. If you look on CE boards, you see numerous complaints of battery life drain, slow performance, and crashing.

And when WP7 is released, you will see numerous complaints of battery life drain, slow performance, and crashing.

The problem is complex. First, there are those that hack the hell out of the phones and expect no consequences. From rooted Android to jailbroken iPhones, to tweak guides on WM that promote snake oil registry entries to attempt to eek out unpercievable performance increases. That's one problem. Second, you have actual faulty devices. But rather than activate warranties, *****ing on the intertubez is apparently more attractive. Third, there's quality control problems for the software makers (OS and app development). It happens. Fourth, you have bugs in the OS. Again, it happens.

And you know what? it happens to all devices.

I can promise you that WP7 devices will have faults. I'm not saying that as a "hate on WP7" thing because I recognize that it happens to ALL devices. Android and WP7 have/will have live updates, which will mitigate some of these issues, but they still exist.

The key here is that you need to realize that restricting the actions of the user may stop some of these issues, but IMHO not enough to give up the freedom.

As for rooting Android, NO I DON'T need to root it to multitask, use SD card, customize many aspects of it, side load apps, cut'n'paste, run unmanaged code, see a file system, use a database, open a socket, allow apps to talk to each other, and a dozen other BASIC things that every OS SHOULD DO! If I want to muck around with the system, yes, I do need to root. But who is talking about that? I never said Android won in that dept. I said that's one place WM (classic) wins in the "freedom for users" battle. But WP7 is far, far more restricted compared to any OS except iPhone. I may have said WP7 should be more like Android and lock down the OS, but let the Apps have more freedom, but that's a far cry from saying Android is perfect. It's very much not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] elitistlinuxuser:
Having a platform that is open-source is not the same as having a platform that is open. You still have to hack a Symbian phone to run unsigned applications the same way you to jailbreak an iPhone to run unsigned applications. Just the Symbian platform doesn't approve apps based on content but to determine if the app is not malware. I do believe the way Symbian handles security and app developement is better than the iPhone. Also your not restricted installing apps from one distribution channel like you are under iOs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Very well said, thx1200...

One thing to add: If something is restricted, you cannot say "it just works". It only works as long as you don't try to do something that is forbidden.

What is more annoying? Having a feature that sometimes doesn't work or not having that feature at all?

In both cases, it does not "just work".

@RustyGrom

Concerning the patent issue, you're very right with your last post I think.

However, I don't think those patents are are too big of a deal.
[Windows Phone 7 General] elitistlinuxuser:
You know what is funny people say Apple products "just work" when in truth nothing ever just works. There will always problems and will always be glitches and bugs with a product such as iPhone 4 catches fire, iphone 4 death grip , and there are even more problems but I just don't have the time to name them all. Apple shouldn't promise products that just but product that work well. Nothing ever just works! Sorry I couldn't post any citations or links xda-developers prevented me from doing so sadface :(.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vetvito:
damn good post :cool:
[Windows Phone 7 General] wm-ralf:
I'm currently using a HTC HD2 with WM 6.5 and are in general happy with it. But it have a few bugs which are really annoying. Like the HTC sense music player which doesn't play some music files - the windows media player plays them without any problems. A custom rom have not this problem but others.

Or the webbrowser control works not unter some ROMs - for me as a developer a no go.

Generall: The developer tools are great but the developer experience under WM isn't that great. I you will write a great app it should have a compelling UI. And good UI development is unter WM a night mere. You have to invest much time (and/or money) to get something good out. Besides you have enormous form factors and thousands of resolutions you have to support if you create a commercial application. Then depends the experience on the device. They are really good devices out there but many crap devices. Are the drivers good? Who knows?

I know smart people here create really amazing stuff and tweak the devices. But the normal user - who creates the most money - doesn't know this or similar sites. He (or she) don't care about multi tasking, copy&paste, free plattform etc. The devices should work and an iPhone does this I think the best.

I get a WP7 device as soon as possible. For me the UI is great and the developer experience is rocking. I have no copy&paste? So what! I rarely use c&p on my HD2 - why? I check my mails, use the outlook functionality (calendar, tasks etc), use twitter&facebook and links in this posts can I click and the site opens.

WP7 is more a OS for the non-geek-user. And here a mostly geeks. Yes, some features are missing but I prefer to miss a feature for some time instead of getting it with thousands of bugs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Apple fanboys have an absolutely unhealthy relationship with Apple. It's quite weird. Almost like stockholm syndrome or something. heh. By contrast, I really like most of what MS does. I think Win7 is awesome. I'm a big evangelist for SBS and most MS Server products. SQL Server rocks my world. But I'm still able to call them out when they make a product I'm not feeling. I expect the best from them and when they don't deliver... I speak up. It'd be weirdly awesome to see an Apple fan do that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chikoo:
Can you piss on the road in Raleigh, NC with a police cruiser going by you?

If you can't then you do not have freedom where you live Honey.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chikoo:
and Elan is suing Apple for using Multi-touch technology on a mobile device :p
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Great analogy. Because the ability publicly urinate on a road is equivelent to the ability to multitask on your phone. Awesome. :confused:
[Windows Phone 7 General] ari-free:
It is a big deal. If Microsoft is telling me that the big advantage of WP7 is a real MS Office then it had better have c&p.
[Windows Phone 7 General] darkmurder:
Well MS has said its coming so I don't know why your so pent up about it, if you don't want it till C+P is there (hardly use it myself - my two cents) just wait till it comes out and then buy a WP7 phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] wm-ralf:
I use MS Office on my HD2 - but in 99% all cases only for viewing. And in the other scenarios I edit some words but haven't need c&p for that. For more is the device not the right one (screen to small etc.)

I have heart from a German developer evangelist that c&p should be coming relative fast and should not take 3 major releases like apple.

Anyway: On a mobile device is for me c&p overrated.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
They've never said it has "real MS Office". In fact they've said the opposite. It's a highly modified office specifically designed for how you would actually use Office on a phone. It's basically just to view, make small changes, and comment on documents. You can create documents but don't expect lots of formatting capability. If you want more, you should use "real MS Office" on a real computer.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MHC48:
But what they are also saying is that many of the things we currently use c&p for are already built into the new OS. Like if you have an address in an e-mail, instead of c&p it into Mapquest or Bing, you can click on it and see it mapped.

Of course there are times when I can see its lack being a problem, but they are far less in a phone situation than they would be in a desktop. Depending on how well and how many places it's implemented, it can alleviate any lack until they do bring it out.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
This is the problem with WP7 design team and WP7 fanboys. They assume that since they don't use a particular feature, that nobody "needs" it, so it's overrated and we just shouldn't worry about it!

Well guess what? Not everybody uses their computers the same way. Not everybody uses their phones the same way. I use C&P almost daily on my phone! I frequently do minor document edits and a lot of that means I need to take text from one part of the document and move it to another. Or maybe cut a paragraph and email it for review. Or maybe there's an email where i need to take a single sentence and past it into a reply on another email. etc. etc.

Same with background services. There are some things that are essential to me that WP7 won't support. I have chimes that ding if I miss a reminder, if there's a server down, etc. I need a background service to periodically wake the device and check these things. There is absolutely no way to build an app like that on WP7. I know somebody is going to mention cloud+push, but that's overkill. I need somebody to build an entire server application backend just because I can't read and write to a port on a schedule on this phone? Not only is that extreme overkill, it's far more expensive and prone to error.

It's simple stupid things like that. If you don't ever use C&P and don't need nonstandard background services (amongst a million other things that WM6.5, Android, and iPhone all do RIGHT NOW), then it's probably a fine phone for you. But that doesn't mean it will be a good fit for everybody.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
"It's a highly modified office specifically designed for how they would actually use Office on a phone."

Fixed.

Or get a Blackberry, iPhone, Android, Palm OS (classic), Palm WebOS, or WM (classic) device and DataViz DocumentsToGo.
[Windows Phone 7 General] evildarknight:
i just can't see how people can buy a "smartphone" with no memory card support....

this is really a no go

i don t truly care about cut & paste or office but no memcard!!!!!!!!!!????????

what if the **** phone goes wakky??use the ???cloud???
[Windows Phone 7 General] IM0001:
Doesn't the Dell WP7 offering already state it has 1GB of onboard rom and comes with an 8GB MicroSD card?

Where all you guys are seeing Microsoft say "NO MEMORY CARD SUPPORT" is beyond me.

I say it once and again, Wait till the OS is out then start Judging it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Here's the catch: They done user analytics, you have your personal opinion.

Thus they probably know most people agree with their ways. You happen to be a exception, deal with it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
In regards to the InfoWorld article which I'm sure some of you read: http://blog.markarteaga.com/WillWindowsPhone7Succeed.aspx
[Windows Phone 7 General] gerryjoson:
Hahaha, like their "user analytics" told them Kin was a winner.

MS has surveyed users???? looks to me like they're just copying someone else [ because it worked for them] and putting their own ghastly spin on it, putting in a couple of "cool" features for your average pubescent 16 year old no lifer and totally killing the advantages of versatility, features and choice that wm currently has.

What was the purpose of linking that Mark Arteaga blog? is it noteworthy for some reason I'm not seeing.
[Windows Phone 7 General] evildarknight:
my my thanks i didn't get that dell info :D