yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
And one other note. I don't think Microsoft is capable of becoming gimmicky, thanks to John Hodgman. I don't think some of these bohemian wannabee gadgeteers could ever mutter that Microsoft was in the least bit cool.

Microsoft needs an awesome token nerd. That's what I'd be thinking in the marketing department in Redmond.
[Windows Phone 7 General] JAguirre1231:
So, options are bad?
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
no, options are good, but you only need these options because the core functionality of the OS app is severely lacking. ChompSMS compared to Android SMS is not even worth comparing. Same can be said for ChatSMS for WM, hell I believe the majority of WM apps are created out of necessity rather than creativity. Currently WM has terrible functionality for every single OS specific application, therefore it seems that we go out of our way to cover up the stock OS. Same for Android. I believe that when you do it right, it only needs to be done once. People should focus on creativity rather than fixing core element

~style~
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
uhm, yeah, I plan on not spending money at all...
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Well, at least Androids are now outselling it big time. 700,000 Android phones sold per week, vs. 260,000 iPhones.

From a market share perspective, Android has already beaten the iPhone and the trend is in favor of the robot.

Looking at the installed base, those 9% will have caught up with the 27% pretty soon ;)

Of course I hope WP7 will follow Android and beat the crap out of Steve Jobs' "revolution".
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
All I can say is that Microsoft teaming up with Facebook is VERY smart...
[Windows Phone 7 General] fallenczar:
Innovation is putting these things togather in ONE product.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Even when the core offerings are good (let's say, Sense, although it is an OEM software), people spend money on alternative core offerings because they like them better. That's not going away. I don't want it to go away. On WP7, I think email looks okay, but Zune doesn't fit my needs, so I would want a 3rd party player. But it can't become the default player.

Same with IE. My god, IE on desktop is the most bashed and hated browser on the internets and yet for some reason nobody is making a peep out of the fact that alternative browsers are nearly impossible on WP7 (due to code portability issues without access to unmanaged development) and even if it were, it'd never be able to be your default browser due to system limitations (aka User Interface DRM).

And then there's the start screen. Some like the tiles. Good for them. But some want a widget interface, like Mobile Shell 3. Some want SenseUI. Sorry, you can't haz what you want because MS says NO.

I agree, having good core offerings is a good thing. But it should not come at the expense of not being able to customize it any way you want. MS says no, so I say, No Sale to the Big Fail.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
MS is the most bashed and hated (or scorned) company on the internets, so that's not a good indicator really; desktop IE deserves this, however. I agree that WP7 effectively forbids alternative browsers and that's a really bad thing, although, judging by the emulator, the IE version that's built in is fairly decent.
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
I think I agree with what you're saying, honestly, but just for the sake of discussion I'll rebut a few of the points.

1) I've spent a lot of time with Zune what is it that it doesn't offer that you're in need of? It does everything. Plays music, plays radio, downloads music, searches for music, if you have zune pass the possibilities are seriously quite impressive. Not to mention the added functionality of not having to label songs anymore. (I have WAAAAY too many songs labelled as Song 1, Song 2 etc intstead of the artist and tracklisting)

2)This isn't your IE from WM or Win7. This feels a lot like Safari honestly. Its snappy and feels good to the touch. Again I'll give better feedback when I've played with one for longer than a few minutes.

3)You're right about the start screen, it is a matter of taste, but the reason it is as such is because of the Push services and them trying not to copy whats already been done I guess. But I those that don't like won't buy so I guess thats the best way to show your dislike

~style~
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Uhm no. That's not innovation. That's just a matter of convenience. They just did it when they could. Anyone can.

They say the same thing about the signature dish of my hometown, Rochester, NY here in the States. They make something called a "Garbage Plate" which consists of 2 hot dogs or 2 hamburgers, mac salad, home fries, all covered in hot sauce, ketchup and mustard. Yeah, that's not innovation. That's called morons putting stuff together on the same plate.
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
A good music player is important to me and here's what I gather Zune is missing:

-Browse by folder. (Common file structures I use are period/composer/category/album or composer/category/piece/recording.)

-Standard methods for copying files (mass storage). (Have to use a master PC and install proprietary sync software on it)

-ogg support (Very common format that topped several lossy format ratings last I checked.)

This might stop me from using WM7 altogether if browse by folder is impossible.
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
1)Browse by folder is alive and well, you can sort and categorize by category, album, artist etc.

2)Nothing you can do about standard methods of copying files with Zune. You need the software in order to copy the files. The tradeoff is that the music that you copy will be better labelled and sorted, also you can actually forego alot of that if you're on the move by just using zune pass. You can download whatever you want whenever you want it (so long as you have a Wifi connection) and the updated 4.5 firmware adds smartdj and pandora options which will keep you very happy on the music front.

3) Ogg format has only been around for about 3 years or so. I know it has amazing compression within the Vorbis (IIRC) formatting and I can't say since I've only used it MAYBE twice. But the Lossy/lossless system is only effective because it removes all information not detectable to the human eye (in pictures) and spectrums above or below human hearing, sure the compression is better but does it matter other than saving a few seconds on converting files? Anyway, I'll digress and say that I do believe that back at firmware 4.1 in Zune they found support for .Mov and .ogg files. I haven't personally looked at support features since then (we are up to 4.5 I believe) so ogg files may be supported currently.

~style~

please don't flame me on the ogg thing. I truely am not too familiar with it, so I'd probably have to do more research on it before I can make an informed opinion. Its just random to see that being a top reason as to not like Zune experience
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You'll have to install Zune software with or without music, simply because that's how you'll need to push some updates to the phone. Zune software is immensely better, more flexible and faster than iTunes, so for music I personally will be OK with it (although I'd still prefer copying to a mass storage device).

In theory, one could build an app that would browse your music by folder (in this case the app would need to keep the music in its isolated storage), and it could possibly even play music in background (this was talked about at MIX, but I haven't seen the APIs).

Ogg support would be impossible without native code though.
[Windows Phone 7 General] fallenczar:
i wonder why no one did :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] hungry81:
Ok if having all existing features in one phone is innovation then:

Where is the iphones hardware keyboard? = innovation fail according to YOU

Where is the expandable memory slot? = innovation fail according to YOU

Where is the removable battery? =innovation fail according to YOU

Where is Video talk over the phone network? = innovation fail according to YOU

Where is flash? = Innovation fail according to YOU

Where is the compass? = Innovation fail according to YOU

As you can see by not combining all existing features into one phone Apple has failed at innovation even according to your definition.

Apple: Where innovation means SUB PAR mixed with lies and sparkle.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Hahaha, nice. All of those things plus a file explorer would be needed to make the iPhone worthy!
[Windows Phone 7 General] ScottyNuttz:
This is the only reason I have not resigned myself to getting an iPhone4... I'm still seriously considering it, but if both were out on the same day, I would definately go to WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] fallenczar:
By YOUR Standards, all phones are SUB PAR.

and please tell me you didn't ask "where is the compass"
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
It doesn't follow my preferred style of workflow. But, I should be clear, I'm not saying that iPod or WMP or some other one is perfect. I'm actually writing what I think is the perfect UI for me and in the future you can see for yourself. Too long to explain everything, so just look at my project page: http://avianplay.codeplex.com/

Again, I'm not dissing Zune in this case as it is quite awesome and beautiful. It's simply a matter of taste. It's just the fact that I don't have the option. That really sums up this entire thread: those who like what WP7 offers, and those pissed off that they can't change it. If WP7 was just more open, I would have NOTHING to complain about... except maybe backward compatibility, but that would be minor compared to what this is.

Again, it's the lack of choice that pisses me off. I'm sure it's wonderful. I use IE on my desktop. You'd think I wouldn't mind. But I do, not because of shortcoming of the browser itself, but the fact that I have no choice.
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
Everything I've read says Zune does not allow browse by folder, and that it only allows browsing by a limited set of metadata tags that are chosen to be convenient for popular music.

I don't know much about zune pass but I expect it only gives access to a small fraction of the history of recorded music. So I'll give it a miss.

I don't think so. Basically sounds like it has features to please casual users but is not software for people who are serious about music.

Can be important with the limited storage space on phones. When storage doubles to 80Gb this won't matter.
[Windows Phone 7 General] hungry81:
No I was emphasising that Just putting existing stuff together is not innovative. Especially if it has been done before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation read this or look it up in a dictionary if your a lol wikki type.

The Iphone 4 is not innovative even if it does have a built in compass, cause it has been done before and is not useful in a new way.

FYI one example of an phone that cold be called innovative is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgnADSuF8MA
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sentinel196:
I think what people need to remember is that the people making the software are in business to make money.

Clearly the Apple method of controlling everying and making their customers pay to do anything outside of those controlled environments has payed off, why wouldn't Microsoft follow suit with WP7?

While the abillity to customise my HD2 is fun. If given the choice between a device that "just works" and one that I have to flash with custom roms and what no to get it to work the way it should, I'll take the "just works option thanks.

Having said that, I can't stand the iPhone simply becasue it is underspec and overpriced hardware which is popular for the most part becasue it's trendy rather than because it is functional.

Another key aspect to Apple's success is also its downfall in my opinion. By creating a device that is so locked down, they are able to provide an appstore where you can be almost garanteed that any software you install will work correctly with your device. This is impossible with the current versions of WinMo as there are so many different hardware platforms available that it is impossible to provide compatibillity for all devices. This is the main reason why Open Marketplace and Windows Marketplace are such an epic fail compared to apple's AppStore.

By locking down the hardware which they are willing to support, it enables Microsoft to provide a much more reliable service to their customers.

If Microsoft can create a phone OS which is functional and expandable without the DRM BS that apple customers have to deal with, but "just works". I'm all for it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
Because the Apple following is fully of hippie/yuppie morons that buy into that crap.
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
THIS!!! I completely agree. But, I don't think M$ is locking everything down to make money off of the consumer base (ala Iphone) for a couple reasons but mostly because the partners that sign on to make WP7 phones pay to use the software. In the same way that the future of Tablets is iffy right now because Android Tablets are cheaper to make with the same specs as a Win7 tablet because they don't have to shell out money just to use the product in the first place. SO, with that said, Apple makes one product...that is the iphone. They make the hardware and software and market it themselves as THEIR phone. So of course the business plan is the make as much money accessorizing it as possible because it doesn't have multiple streams of income for the product. M$ on the other hand has multiple developers and actually doesn't have to do anything other than build the software and wait for others to license it out. It is in M$ best interest to built an OS worth the wait and popular enough to reach as many target audiences as possible in or to reel in more developers to use their OS.

And when it comes down to it, ultimately, this is why you cannot compare M$ and apple they aren't trying to accomplish the same goals. I just hope M$ has learned the lesson of launching a proper app store. It holds such huge revenue potential for M$ especially with that 70/30 split.

~style~
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
Thanks. I might take you up on that offer. :-)

It honestly shocked me when they stated that there is no way to change the default browser. Then they were pretty harsh on never opening unmanaged code. Now they are backtracking a little bit, saying that "if there is a demand" they will allow it. I just don't like that attitude. It pisses me off. The most innovative software in the world wasn't in demand before it was created. And if the necessary APIs are not there to make it happen, it never will be in demand. I could defend them more easily if they just said "Sorry, not in version 1.0, but we will add that down the road." That's the same at-launch conditions of not having it, but the implementation is not hinging on it "being in demand." Charlie Kindel said they didn't want to take a "if we build it, they will come" attitude towards the APIs, but I disagree with that. Surely you have to prioritize what is in demand, but that shouldn't stop you from doing something unusual and unique just because there is no demand for it. So, yes, we'll see. I'm cautiously optimistic (more so than when this thread started) that in two years WP7 will look quite different than what we are seeing now that I and others call "FAIL" and that all of this ranting and raving gets through to MS. But I'm worried it won't. Hopefully Ballmer will remind them of what the 90s were like for MS.

I really hope so.
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
yeah no doubt, but do understand creativity spawns innovation but thats on a software standpoint(this website is the proof). But when you're creating "apps" in the sense that we see now (the Iphone generation) you create apps for one reason. Profitability. It sucks but i believe that in the future consumers will wise up and dictate with their purchases. The Iphone app store is loaded with non important useless drivel. The Android app store is loaded with more of the same but a lot of free apps. M$ seems to have taken a middle ground and I believe with the hopes of making more profit through the WP7 app store developers like myself and other will join the scene and make a push with M$ itself to give us more access to what we can and cant do. At this point since nothing is official I wouldn't want developers having access to everything, so I believe as the community grows the walls will be broken down. The basic fact that I will get paid for the apps I create (more than the crappy 99cent app stuff I deal with on the Iphone) means that I will put more time and effort to create the highest quality applications and try to be the first to innovate something extraordinary. But you're right It can't just be created....M$ has to help as well by giving developers more access. We'll see what I can do in a month or So when I get my Windows phone in the mail.

~style~
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
There is nothing about viewing by folders here. Only what I mentioned, sorting by predetermined metadata tags suitable for popular music "artist, album, song, genre".

It may be better than Itunes but countless recordings are not available from any online source. So Amazon marketplace and physical CDs win. But it's great that online sources are becoming better and better.

But we digress: content is separate from software and media player. Content should be playable with any good software, and if it's not, you should take your business elsewhere.

I have nothing against this sort of software; we're getting sidetracked. The question is zune player good software for playing audio files.

ogg is a good lossy format

Lossless is a good format for archival purposes. $1 buys you 10Gb now, which can fit 30-40 CDs losslessly, so it's cheap. Not very suitable for phones.
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I think Google is doing the Android market right. The barrier to entry is so small. From what I read, a one-time $25 fee, then a cut of the profits. It leads to crapware, yes, but if you want good free apps, you can't price them out of it. MS's $100/year pricing model prices me OUT of the free app market on WP7. There is no possible way I can offset that cost with donations. So either I'm making commercial apps or I'm requiring users to jailbreak the phone. That's just not a good idea, IMHO.

Based on what I read about changes coming to marketplace (demo modes for apps, and so on), MS has some great ideas coming for the online phone market. But the cost of entry for freeware apps is just way too high.

What they should do, in my opinion, is have a one-time lifetime fee for free apps. It could be as high as $50 and you would see a lot of developers pay that, even if donations don't recoup the cost. Then for commercial apps, keep the $100/yr model.

I know they will say that auditing the app to make sure it complies with standards is the reason for the cost, but I am skeptical because most of that is automated. Maybe for the free apps, no details on rejection and that's just a part of the fact that you didn't pay for it? I don't know, but I just think when WP7 is released, there will be a really quick race to the bottom in the marketplace: a crapload of terrible useless 99cent apps downing out anything decent, and very few freeware apps.
[Windows Phone 7 General] darkmurder:
I think its good, keeps the crap out and if those who struggle with free apps and think they have a good one should seek out to put in some advertising to subsidise the costs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] GAMERIG:
Someone said "I convinced Wp7 isn't failure, GO Wp7"

SOURCE from pocketgamer.biz

Edited: Yes MSFT knew Wp7 will be Next AS DOA since KIN PHONE FAILED already!
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
The Kin failed already?

The Kin is one ugly phone...both of them. If the WP7 phones aren't sleek and sexy looking, they're DOA no matter how good they are.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ari-free:
There are ways of having a quality selection of apps without forbidding everything else. There could be a "featured" section and you would have to get approved and pay to get in
[Windows Phone 7 General] shaundalglish:
Why not just allow side-loading? Isn't it that simple? I think it is.
[Windows Phone 7 General] bdkinney:
I hesitated pulling the trigger on an HD2 because it wouldn't be getting WP7. But after reading this...I think that might be a plus. And considering the progress of the Android port in the HD2 threads, I believe the phone will still have life after WM6.xx is dead. So, thanks to all who posted...you sold me on my new phone...ordering now... :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] Helmore:
WM6.X.X won't be dead for another 2 years or so at least. Microsoft usually has pretty long support cycles for their software. Windows XP for example will be supported until sometime in 2014 for example and they stopped selling Windows 3.11 by the end of 2008, just to give you an idea of how long Microsoft supports its software in some form or another.
[Windows Phone 7 General] GAMERIG:
Can you example me this Microsoft Kin is dead & What killed the Kin? Uhmmmm
[Windows Phone 7 General] jo_iii:
For a start, Kin was the starting point of WP7. There's no point for them seperating those two.

WM has been here since 2000. WM will surely last as it is based on a popular kernel, and users like us who like to tinker and prefer more freedom would still continue to use it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Kin will be "supported" by MSFT for quite a while to come. That said, how many enterprise users are using Kin? How many app developers have invested money in the platform? How many OEMs? You really can't compare Kin to WM6 at all.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Windcape:
Microsoft Kin was due to aesthetics, not software, and is a result of a internal battle between devisions in Redmond.

They had it coming. WP7 won't fail.
[Windows Phone 7 General] elitistlinuxuser:
Re: WP7 is Complete FAIL

I'm going to agree with creator of this thread Windows Phone 7 does suck I will stick to Windows Mobile 6.5 or Android thank you :). Also I would like to correct Nokia phones are locked down. Nokia phones use the Symbian OS which is by definition a closed platform. Why is Symbian closed because of that Symbian signed **** which only allows application that have been signed by the Symbian foundation and there are ways to bypass it (the best way is to run Helo0x2). So Nokia phones are locked down just the thing is that Nokia phones don't lack basic features from the year 2005. Windows Phone 7 won't fail due to lack of feature x,y, or z or having a limited os has lack of features or limited os hurt the sales of iPhones or Blackberries. The reason why Windows Phone 7 will fail in my opinion is because there would be no incentive to develop applications for Windows Phone 7, Windows Mobile in its current form has very little market share and no incentive for hardware manufacturers to make Windows Phone 7 devices, power users will adopt Android or stick with Windows Mobile 6.5 (like I am), and system requirement are simply to high and thus devices will be more expensive to manufacture. Personally I hope Windows Phone 7 fails hard. I don't care about if Windows Phone 7 doesn't have a certain feature what I care about is not being locked down North Korea style the way iPhones are.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
I understand thinking that it will fail but HOPING that it will fail? That's just childish.
[Windows Phone 7 General] elitistlinuxuser:
Sorry about that. ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] lordcanti86:
WP7 hardware should be no more expensive than comparitive Android hardware and if you think WP7 requirements are high, you should see the rumored Android 3.0 (Gingerbread) requirements.