yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
I know I never said they worked well lol. But it looks like much of the internals of WP7 looks similar to 6.5 so if the device is jail broken they might be able to use native code and take full control of the hardware and we can see what we see today. I just hope the guys at FPSeCE are up to that. I love that program.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rcrawford611:
From what I have read the people who are complaining the most about wp7 are the "techies" the people that like to tinker with and hack through the phone and implement their own flavor to it. That's great and all but Microsoft is a corporation, their business is to make money. wp7 is meant for the mass market...the mom and pops of the world, who want want their phone to just work without having stuff to tinker with. In reality the people who are complaining the most about wp7 should just switch to mameo/meego/ whatever they call it, a TRUE open-source OS...not something that's initially closed-source in the first place.

with wp7 its meant more so for the average consumer, not the techie who likes to go about seeing all the inner-workings and have a desktop like experience on their phone. Microsoft did make a good point when they a phone should not just be a copy of a desktop experience but something meant doing stuff for a mobile experience.

Now I don't like some of the features that missing from wp7 right now (copy-paste) but the lack of true multi-tasking is really not that big of a deal. for the majority as long as you can have the important programs able to run the background like your music, Internet browser, navigation what else do you really need to run in the background? if you can get your IMs in real-time do you really need it to run at the same time as say your watching a video or browsing a web page?

all in all just wait for it to get released and see how it works before saying it's a fail because it doesn't fit YOU. get a phone that fits your needs instead complaining over something that does fit you.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
The mom and pops have two options then...

Buy an old style flip phone like they do now.

Or buy an iPhone.

If Microsoft thinks they can muscle in on the "it just works-mom and pop" market they're wrong.

I hate Apple, and I'll stand behind Microsoft. But at least with Windows 7, they created the best OS interface out there STILL with the ability to do all the tech/modding capabilities I need.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rcrawford611:
so in other words what the people who are complaning want would say the Metro UI with wm6.+ cababilites right instead of a iphone esque experience?

that would be great still the business model that apple has is well highly profitable for them. I believe microsoft can steal some of apples thunder if they can get a proper marketing team for wp7. and i know the first verison or two of wp7 will not live up to the cababilites of wm6+ but seeing what modders have done with the iphone it would be fair to say that something similar will happen with wp7
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
If Microsoft wants to steal market share from Apple, they should not be calling their product "Windows Phone 7". They should split the division off, call it something completely different, like "Metro Phone", and hide their involvement, much like News Corp used to with Myspace. When it comes to ease of use and user-friendly atmosphere, their name works against them.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fireslave:
Do you think Microsoft will release Windows MOBILE 7?
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I hope this prediction keeps up that there still will be development of Windows Mobile Professional for business...
[Windows Phone 7 General] burnblue:
Let's be real, WM6.* does not have developer support right now. WP7 will, because Microsoft put a lot into an easy development platform.

Windows Phone Classic is your "Windows Mobile Professional". This is Microsoft: Like XP, if people demand it they'll release updates for it.

Also, it is silly to think MS would, in this 18 month timeframe, work on making an OS with the purpose of letting be tinkered with and hacked up. I mean, Microsoft knows their community is skilled and will hack it anyway (look at the emulator)... they have things to do right now like build a developer platform that feels safe from piracy, and user delighters that work as expected. This is their first attempt at linking all their online services.. let's give them some props.

Face it: hackers will hack, so anyone whining about "what about us tinkerers" is not being very far-sighted. It would be great if they offered us at least the level of theming they did in Windows 7, letting tinkerers handle more advanced theming. It would be great if they had all the basics figured out already, like how to fit removable storage with the Silverlight platform's storage model, or how to fit a clipboard and 3rd party background processes into the security model... but they threw away a whole OS to give us this new one and I for one think that's worth commending.
[Windows Phone 7 General] CSMR:
It's not a virtue that Windows Mobile needs to be hacked up. It's because of bugs, or more likely the things that manufacturers and operators do to the OS that hackers then need to fix. If the OS is good (e.g. MS Windows), you won't get a community of hackers.

The problem with Windows Phone 7 isn't that it can't be hacked. It's that it lacks basic features.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
The difference between the XP vs. WM6.x comparison is that Windows 7 (Vista's and by proxy XP's successor) is wholly better than XP. It has all of XP's features and more -- Windows 7's featureset is wholly a superset of Windows XP's featureset.

This is not the case with WP7S as compared to WM6.x

I'm so tired of the Microsoft apologists.

I'm probably one of the biggest Microsoft fans that you will ever meet, but I am for a reason -- I like their products.

This is a product that I don't like, and for good reason -- it doesn't fit with their ecosystem.

Microsoft has a phone operating system, a desktop operating system, a server operating system, and those three [previously] integrated extremely well and had a relatively-uniform feeling. If you could do something on the server OS you could likely do it on the desktop OS and you could likely do it on the phone OS, and the layout and design was roughly the same.

There was a sense of uniformity.

Now you have this serious business server OS, and this serious business desktop OS, and this joke of a phone OS.

It's not even really an operating system anymore...it's more of an appliance.

As for building with the purpose of letting it be tinkered and hacked, WHY NOT?

Every OS since MS-DOS has been designed with the ability to tinker and hack in mind, which is why they're so powerful and is one of the reasons that they're gone relatively unchallenged as the dominant PC operating systems. If Windows didn't give administrators the control that they needed (in much the same way that WP7S doesn't give power users the control that they need) then I can assure you that the business market would've found some way to move to Linux long ago.

After all, they're designing an operating system, not an appliance, which is where Apple and Microsoft diverge, and which is where -- I feel -- Microsoft does better.

But now they've thrown that away and I'm going to enjoy watching them burn as they fail to capture Apple marketshare.

They couldn't capture iPod marketshare, what makes them think they'll be able to capture iPhone marketshare, when both were/are about equally entrenched?
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
MS just needs to understand that simple doesn't have to mean simplistic in the mobile space. Windows 7 is easier to use AND more complicated than Windows XP. The 2 are not directly related.

I'm hoping Wp7 v2 or wp8 or whatever they name the version a year or 2 after wp7 hits that they realize this and add back the openess (it's a bit of a stretch to say MS is open open, but their software is pretty easy to configure into anything you want) & powerful features that they've been known for on their desktop app.
[Windows Phone 7 General] abuttino:
I can't understand why, and probably will never understand the reason that MS wants to do this.

All they needed was a stable OS and a good marketing scheme. Instead, they just took all the reasons that I love Windows Mobile, and ripped it away.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eddhd:
WM7 is is definitly not for me, I dont want to be spending all my time scrolling (I'll have no finger prints left) just to get to apps and menues. I may be good for games and adverts. I guess WM 6.5 would be my last.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Addicted2xda:
Really a nice post :). If M$ thinks the world is "M$ Inside Idiot outside", they will have to eat the humble pie. WP7 will follow the footsteps of Windows Me, if I am not wrong.

If I needed a phone which is locked down like iPhone, I would GET myself an iPhone - which at least has awesome music capabilities. But then, why send so much on a non smart phone? I would rather get a high end Samsung or Sony Ericsson Multimedia phone!
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I just want to clarify some of your statements. Are you saying that Microsoft usually develops for smarter people and believes that all others that don't use their software are idiots? Then your question is why did they develop a dumb phone?

Because I agree with that completely.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Bodisson:
I see WM7 as a phone OS targeted at very narrow group of users, and as such a very big failure.

All technically expirienced/advanced/just curious users will migrate to other phone OSs.

Even Blackberry OS is more flexible than what is described for WM7...

So I'll stay with WM6.x untill my HD dies (hopefully never), then migrate either on Blackberry or on Android...
[Windows Phone 7 General] burnblue:
True, but I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a disagreement with what I said. If anything, it only reinforces my point since Microsoft has even more reason to support WM6.x

Emphasis on purpose.

When you build something there are a certain amount of features you can build in a given time. They have simple basics to work on as priority items that a phone needs, as I'm sure you know. Simple stuff like how to handle incoming phone calls properly, copying text. This is your purpose first. If Microsoft drew up a plan to build an OS and said "OK, first we'll build back doors to the OS, then we'll finish up the OS" then they would fail business-wise.

So I'm not referring to purposefully locking people out, I'm referring to building loopholes from the perspective of a hacker paradise rather than the perspective of a phone that works. APIs can come after. It's not an apology: unlike Apple, Microsoft has plenty of experience building phones and it shouldn't take them so long to get their basics down. All I'm saying as that hackability is a feature, not the purpose
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
The fact-of-the-matter is, is that the APIs to accomplish the things that we want are clearly there, since Microsoft applications are using them.

Obviously there is documentation for these APIs as well, since I don't think every person who developed an app running with these "privledges" that only M$ apps have was there to build and understand the native APIs of the OS.

There is also clearly methodology built into the OS for sideloading.

I just don't understand how hard it is to release the native APIs documentation with a disclaimer saying that these apps will not get into the Marketplace, and that Microsoft in no way takes responsibility for it.

They seem to want to sugarcoat everything, without realizing that some people just want to keep hacking their phones and they don't really care if they void their warranty or can't go yell at M$ about it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Addicted2xda:
Specially pple like me who has ORD, flashed my Gene the same day I bought it and Touch2 withing a week :p
[Windows Phone 7 General] sdlopez83:
lol Metro Phone. I actually agree that sounds good man. Like the sound of that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
Windows 7 has windows in it and people flocked to that just fine. I think they just need a good ad campaign to go with their launch.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
A computer's OS is a little different because it's more widely known. Honestly, I have met so many people that had no idea Microsoft made mobile phone software and when told that they did, they weren't interested.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
That's because Microsoft has extremely poor brand name perception amongst the layman, and even worse among sections of the "nerds".

The only thing that keeps them with as gross a marketshare as they have is the fact that:

A. Their marketshare virtually precludes effectively switching away from them.

B. They make exceptional products [for the most part].
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I would agree that "Windows" might not be a good brand to approach the mainstream, both because it's associated with computers (and thus complexity, bugs, lags etc. etc.) and because it's misleading (WP7 has almost nothing in common with Win32). It's even worse that they throw everything in mobile under this umbrella brand (i.e. Kin, WM and WP7) to an extent that the brand ceases to mean anything.

Unfortunately, that's how things work in big corporations - I don't think that someone at MS will have the guts to stand up and say, "Windows sucks as a brand". :)

But at the end of the day it just means that they'll have to spend more money, and they have plenty. If you think about it, Linux and Java may have even worse associations for the general consumer than Windows, and "Android" is a very crappy name for a phone to try to appeal to your grandma. And still it works.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
I don't think they necessarily have to stand up and say "Windows sucks as a brand". I think they just need to move directions and invest in producing more than one brand. The general public doesn't necessarily know the secret branding that goes on. Think about what you thought of certain products before you knew who truly owned them...

Lincoln is actually Ford, Lexus is actually Toyota

Myspace is actually News Corp (Fox Broadcasting)

Old Navy and Banana Republic is actually Gap

Hotwire.com, Hotels.com, and Expedia.com are actually all the same company

Gatorade, Aquafina, Frito-Lay and Quaker Oats are actually PepsiCo

Introducing the new phone from Metro, Inc....
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Yes, kind of like they did with Kin. But then again some genius insists that those are called Windows Phones...
[Windows Phone 7 General] LifewareSolutions:
The greatest advantage of WP7 is that it opens new possibilities for developers.

Silverlight brings much more simplicity and power to UI development. XNA looks good as well.

We are quite optimistic about WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] KayK:
mixed feeling about WP7

has anyone read the article here: Leaked Windows Phone 7 Architecture guide reveal more OS info
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
The PDA is dying

Yup, the PDA is dying. You can thank the marketing assholes (like Charlie Kindel) that think they need to cater to the dumbest group of people, just because Apple had a little success with it. And I will admit it, it's largely dumb fat Americans -- my brethren -- they are catering to.

I'm personally hoping for more mad success for the HD2 and a complete flop of every WP7 device that hits the market. Maybe the WP8 will be halfway decent if they see HTC's SenseUI being a more popular option than the UGLY blue-square featureless Metro UI.

So I hear Google's Android doesn't completely suck... lol. I still miss my classic WinMo, and I still have a classic WinMo device!
[Windows Phone 7 General] bsellmon:
I wonder...

if Microsoft ever talks to people that actually use their products before they decide to crappify an OS? I knew WP7 would be a load of horse manure as soon as they announced it, and they definitely didn't disappoint! Ah, well...I guess I'll go get an HD 2 before WM completely kills itself...
[Windows Phone 7 General] ashg926:
Unfortunately for us, this is the business world. Microsoft intends to compete with Apple's iPhone which is simply more popular, to my knowledge. Windows Mobile is dropping in popularity and if Microsoft intends to gain on the iPhone, they have to "up their game". Note the use of scare quotes.

While I don't agree with Microsoft's move with WP7, this is just business. Catering to their dwindling loyal customers is just inefficient.

Sure, it sucks for those of us who loved WinMo 6.5, but there's really nothing that can be done about it. This is what will get them more customers, so they have to do it. It's business, nothing more and nothing less.
[Windows Phone 7 General] rorytmeadows:
They "apparently" talked with IT departments and business and they "apparently" responded that mixing business with recreation was what they were looking for. Please, show me a respectable business with responsible management that feels that way. I have a feeling they just talked with yuppie businessmen from goofy companies like Google and not an entity that represents most of the world (or at least the REAL business world).
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
I agree they are definitely pushing hard on the average consumer, and it's probably a more lucrative business opportunity. There's really only one major competitor: Apple. Android is still stuck in the hybrid phase of business/personal, like WM6.5 is. That's a slow growth sector (I still think long-term it's a good strategy though). I hope it stays there as it may be the power user's last hope for a powerful device. If google jumps the ship, the "Pocket PC" form of device will officially be dead and gone and buried and spat on!

That said, I've seen in several places now where people other than Charlie Kindell (who is a tool) have indicated that this is just not the year for business for mobile for MS, but they haven't dropped the idea. There's no word if that means a WM6.6, a WM7+business features, or what. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm not sure MS even knows. I do know that the sources were from MS employees in forums tying to calm down flame wars on MSDN lol. So they are certainly bound by NDAs and can't disclose details.

It's also worth nothing that WM (as we know it) IS actually continuing active development for the specialty/rugged sector, as that is a space that MS owns right now. The phone aspect is phasing out, but the OS is absolutely not. So that is a plus in the sense that there is nothing stopping, say, HTC from making a new SenseUI phone based on that OS. If there is a market for it, that is.

I'm sure they talked to many CEOs who have a hard time using their iPhones because it's too complicated for them. I disagree they listened to many IT people. Nobody in their right mind would have suggested, "you know what? I really hate copy and paste... and multitasking. It just sucks, you konw? Also get rid of SQL.. Jeesh. XML is all we need. Who needs the performance of SQL?"
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
Well, I'm hoping the wp7 does well versus the iphone in the consumer market. But struggles with the business market because of the lack of advanced features (full optional multitasking, file explorer, NDK, etc.). This might force them to either release a wp7 professional that's more like what "we" want. I'd rather not "jailbreak" a phone, I'd rather they just provide a version of the phone with the advanced features made as options.

But right now, they have a bad strategy. I thought they learned this from the days where Windows 98/ME ran parallel with Windows NT/2000. But perhaps it's inevitable to have these 2 different product lines for an interim period.

But they have to come to the realization, that something doesn't have to be made less complicated in order to be easier to use. Windows XP was more advanced than windows 98/ME and is easier to use, this trend carried over to Windows 7 as well. But I'm hoping this is just their marketing spin to get a foothold in the general market, and continually add advanced features over their windows phone update system.
[Windows Phone 7 General] joe_coolish:
Couldnt agree with you more! For me, wp7 will be great for developing and making a little $$$ on the side. Look at the success of theApp Store on the iPhone? Even if the average developer doesnt make any money, atleast they have a far greater opportunity than the WinMo Developers of today.
[Windows Phone 7 General] donnaw:
I am not at all happy with the route MS is taking. I suppose the lack of file access was the straw for me. Perhaps along with the inability to side-load apps.

I really need a new phone (my KS20 is dying) and was trying to hold out for a new WP7 this fall but now I have just ordered a Topaz to tide me over for a year or so. Hopefully until they get this all worked out.

Before the iPhone most people just used dumb phones. The iPhone changed that. It is considered a "smart" phone but to be honest I consider it just a slick app launcher. However, all those people who bought it now consider themselves "smart" phone users. LOL

I got my Topaz from Att so just for fun I read the reviews and it was actually an eye-opener. You would cry to read how many of the reviews were a 1 star because the user could not figure out how to configure the phone. The only good reviews were from people who had actually had WM phones before.

I bet the vast majority of users here hang out here and other tech sights. It just does not usually occur to us just how non-tech savvy the general public is. I'm 100% sure MS decided to dumb down their OS in order to pick up those folks.

Hopefully in the next 1-2 years this will be sorted out and we will gain access to the things we all love about WM from WP7. If not then I fully expect most of us will move to other platforms.

I have even considered moving to a Jitterbug and simplify my life. :p:p
[Windows Phone 7 General] Toss3:
I just hope WP 7 won't start bringing those non-tech savvy people over to XDA devs. The HD2 forum is already quite full of these people and with the launch of WP 7 it's gonna get even worse.
[Windows Phone 7 General] JAguirre1231:
For your sake, I would stay out of the Android forums on XDA...
[Windows Phone 7 General] thx1200:
The AppStore is a tremendous success...for Apple. Good luck with your developing. Most iphone apps make little to no money. Plus, you are at the mercy of Apple deciding it's okay to be in their store.

I like centralized app markets. I really do. But I don't like that being the only way to get apps on my device. Can you imagine the uproar if desktop Windows could only load apps from Microsoft's app market? Wow. Sometimes monopolies are a good thing because the threat of lawsuit keeps the companies "honest." With the mobile market, the trend to rigidly controlled devices will probably continue. And there's not much we can do about it because you can't use market monopoly as an excuse to change the practices since there is competition.