yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
it is all about the software

it is all about the software, not as much the hardware.

The way you make the OS lighter and more predictive is the key.

eg.

I have a core2duo/4gb laptop running "Vista" OMG!

last week I made it a dual boot and installed Ubuntu Linux.

I don't think I am going back to Vista on that laptop.

The ubuntu interface is so clean and it does what you anticipate your action to do, and it does it without any herky jerky window transitions.

On top of that, all the drivers installed all by itself on installation of the OS without me knowing. The mousepad, the LED screen, NIC card, wireless network, the hardware buttons, the bluetooth, everything works flawlessly. In 1 hr, I had a brand new OS with no crap.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Try Windows 7 :D

I bet you'll be impressed ;)

It's all about software AND hardware. You can achieve maximum fluidity on the slowest hardware, but you won't get speed. On the other hand, you can have incredibly fast hardware but a laggy software experience...
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
I did. It is good. But still not as lightweight as the ubuntu.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
LOL how old is your PC? I have Windows 7 running perfectly on an 8 year old so-called laptop (with a Pentium 4 :D).
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
Got it in Dec 2008. Core2duo with 3GB RAM
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Nah, you never know, different hardware could have different result :)

It is only in your mind and your believe, nothing wrong with that though.

For me, having fluidity only is not enough, there are more than that for having a smartphone.

Each platform has its own adv and disadv ...

And as the title of this thread, what are the adv of WP7 over iPhone? :)

Answer: There are many and obvious, you knew it.

To continue:

What are the disadv of WP7 compare to iPhone?

Answer: 1......2......3............

:)

NOTE: if you are comparing iPhone and Windows Mobile (I assume current WinMo 6.5.x) in this thread then you got in a wrong discussion. This is about WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Actually, there's not much difference between the hardware in the HD2 and the hardware in the iPhone 3GS.

(talking about the architecture - of course, the HD2's clock speed is higher, RAM is more etc.)

Of course. If fluidity was that important to me, would I use an HD2? Certainly not. I'd use an iPhone, but I don't, cause of course there's other important things (like multitasking ;)).

Sure... there's always compromises involved. Unfortunately WP7 makes it no better... still leaves a lot to be desired.

Much more efficient UI.

Integration with MS services.

Better hardware (much better hardware I expect, Apple has always been at leas half a year behind there)

That's it I think. Too little... sure, I won't get an iPhone. WP7 is definitely better. But I don't think it's enough for them to win.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
They are? :confused:
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Yes, they are, of course. :rolleyes:
[Windows Phone 7 General] cp_kirkley:
As a recent switcher from a 3GS to an HD2, I'll say that the biggest selling point for was the impressive hardware I would be getting my hands on. After using the iPhone 3g and 3gs, sure one is impressed by the fluidity, but one is also extremely frustrated with the stale design and now outdated OS. I find it unacceptable to have to buy a new version of the same phone in order to get things that should have been implemented on the device from the very beginning. Cut and paste, Stereo Bluetooth, I had stereo bluetooth on a Wizard in 2005. Itunes SUCKS. I have a Core i7QM Vaio F Laptop, and iTunes takes 20+ seconds to be able to click on anything. Windows Media player takes what, 3-4 seconds? Don't give me this crap about use it on a mac either, because even on a macbook pro 2.5GHz with 4GB of ram, iTunes is still slow.

Toss in Apple's blatant refusal to support the industry standard (like it or not) flash and then you see why people would get tired of iPhones. I had to jailbreak my phone in order to not have a black screen for a backdrop, or record video on my 3g, or to run pandora while i'm text messaging, or to have a woefully simplistic file explorer.

On the other hand, the HD2 is a marvel in comparison. The screen is fantastic. Feels like I'm holding a Garmin to my ear, but despite its screen and specs it is noticeably thinner than my 3gs. What I have lost in touchscreen accuracy, which isnt that bad to be honest, i have more than made up for by way of awesome facebook integration, a great entry level digicam, with flash, AWESOME SenseUI, physical call/end buttons, removable battery and storage, wireless N, and the abilty to finally uninstall iTunes. Small price to pay IMO.

The HD2 is the first, maybe only phone with the brute force to bend windows mobile to ITS will, instead of it being the other way around. This phone is showing me just how much I missed about the power, flexibility, and personal gratification to be had when using a phone that has everything that I want/like, and the abilty to change what I dont. Unless Apple comes out with another gamechanger phone, (Let me make this perfectly clear - a faster processor and camera MP bump will NOT cut it when the OS is going on 4 years old) I will not consider them again.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
How? :confused:
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Just think about it. It's not that hard to understand. :rolleyes:

I'll even give you a hint: Imagine a race between one terribly fast runner and one who's pretty slow. The fast runner stops every few hundred meters. The slow one doesn't. Who will win?

And does it really matter, who wins? Often, when I go home from work, I walk instead of waiting for the bus. If I took the bus, I'd be home earlier. I know that walking takes longer. BUT waiting for the bus is boring. Thus, I actually have a better experience when I walk instead of taking the bus, despite that it takes longer to get home.

Fluidity is really important for the user experience, as it creates the impression of speed. Many people think the iPhone 3G is fast and significantly faster than Windows Mobile devices like the Touch Pro 2. But in fact, it is not. Not a bit. But contrary to the Windows Mobile devices, it's fluid.

There's a reason why one out of four big improvemets from WM6.1 to WM6.5 was a physics engine. Microsoft knows how important fluidity is. They know that pure speed is only half of the story (at best).
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
@seed_al

You have to give some technical explanations for your viewpoints on speed, fluidity, multitasking, magical Apple physics engine, and etc. Up until now, you are just making unsupported statements without any attempt at a technical explanation of your viewpoints. I think you are wrong...on all points.

Saying the iPhone is no faster than WM is like telling us the sky isn't blue. Have you ever used the two side by side? It's really a no-brainer. Perception is key.
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
this is a weird thread that just degenerated at a mind boggling pace. As soon as WM and Iphone were mentioned...it all went downhill.

Multitasking for the record is only important to those that need to multitask. Thats no diss to those with Iphones or WM but its a fact. My wife has an iphone. She doesn't need to multitask...she wants to sms she opens and sms and sends it...she lives a life that functions well with what her phone is capable of doing. I on the other hand will be in the middle of sorting through P&L's when I get an email and a text message at the same time...I need to check them both then go back to my XLS file to finish dealing with P&L's...while double checking numbers through my store files via Internet explorer. This is a daily thing for me. Its good to be able to open and close multiple programs at will.

Moreover, looking at the "fluidity" of the Iphone there is a clear difference between it and my Acer which is just fast. Iphone is more an ecosystem...it an OS built by a developer specifically for its own phone. So yeah it is sooooo smooth. Transitions are beautiful system menus are uniform (thanks to it being locked down) everything just flows with the iphone, it does everything you want it to do exactly how you expect it to be done....its fluid.

My Acer S2000 on the other hand is brutal and ugly (basic WM software...ugly screens, no transitions) but its fast. I can't bog this phone down no matter what. It doesn't flow at all but it allows me to be a power user, I can do anything on this phone and the phone will keep up with me. Only on WM can I accomplish so many goals at the same time. Plus you have to keep in mind WM is an OS built by ONE manufacturer that is being used by at least a dozen companies...much different building premise than the Iphone which only has to build for itself. Which I guess is why its so surprising to see WP7 so locked down in comparison to the current WM. Good Move for M$

So as I said before different strokes for different folks. If I don't need to multitask then multitasking isn't an advantage. If I don't care about producing and developing apps then the locked down platform doesn't matter to me, if I want an easy and enjoyable experience then I go for the phone that allows it. I think trying to provide this list of advantages from one OS to another is completely biased because a phone is whatever you need it to be. Hell when I was in High School you couldn't take my Nokia away from me...it was the best phone ever, now I look back and laugh. Its all opinion, you can't sell people your opinion and make it fact.

So to both sides of this debate heed these words:

Never argue with idiots, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

~style1~
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
the multitasks u mentioned can be done on iphone too...and the best part is the safari rendering is quick, perfect and you have multiple tabs, unlike IE. Opera is still a work in progress compared to the safari
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
no sir i have to disagree with you. With OSX you open a program close it open another close it open another close it....what I speak of is open a program switch to another program, switch to another, go back to the first one, close the second one all while making a call. Not possible on OSX...and yes Safari is amazing we all know. That horse died long ago. I'm using Safari on Windows 7 right now...lol

~style1~
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
The max number of user who really concern about full multitask is more or less the same as the number of XDA-Dev forum member (minus 1, me :D ).

Not much, really, compared to millions of current WM users and potential users. So, it is a simple math for Microsoft to make decision for their new WP7 design.

Because all other regular users don't know about multitasking on a phone ... most of them don't understand ... and most of them will use 1 app at a time (they always click the [x] button first before going to other task).

NOTE: I wrote "full" multitask there because it seems "that" is the multitask that is wanted by some users here. Although I still believe WP7 has some sort of multitask as well.
[Windows Phone 7 General] havox22:
make that minus 2:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] jagan2:
Lol did u missed the line "The fastest browser on the earth" thats opera 10.50 and after using still u feel its not fast as expected like me then switch to google chrome. :D

And at all: If multitasking is not a big deal for you then you can easily choose normal phones like nokia and other which has everything that a normal person needs....

i choose wm coz of multitasking, the power of customizability and yes cooking i can do whatever i want. :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Why? People can still choose WM :)

They are working as expected even without utilizing the multitask.

Oh, instead oh choosing Nokia, why not waiting WP7 :) That is also viable option.

I know, cooking ROM is "fun", but that will never be "mainstream" feature. It only hobby for, again limited number of users (XDA dev users).
[Windows Phone 7 General] jagan2:
No, i meant that if multitasking is one of the reason which makes it special and people dont need it then then can go for normal phones too which will work for theme as expected. :)

And yes rom cooking its something a hidden feature :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
of course WP7 will have some sort of multitasking. Microsoft are not stupid.... not THAT much! I just think due to concept of HUBS replacing apps it will not be the traditional way we're used to with a Task manager.

I'm also using the [x] to close an app but I know it's only minimized. I think it will happen the same on WP7 but I assume MS wants to hide this from the standard user. A task manager doesn't fit into the new user experience.

I don't think they will be as stupid as Apple and stop GPS navigation when a call is ringing in.

And long downloads I think they are supposed to be done with Internet explorer which might be deeply integrated into the OS and running all the time, so no problem.

Any other issues with multitasking or lack of it? I doubt it.

So you see: no reason to even remotely think about iphone!!!!
[Windows Phone 7 General] jagan2:
Excellent!! i totally agree with u
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Yes, I have done extensive testing. The iPhone is not a bit faster. It's just a lot more fluid.

There you also have (one more) proof that I'm completely right. I don't know what more proof is necessary, I think you just can't accept that you've been wrong... :rolleyes:

@style1 Multitasking is necessary to EVERYONE. Because EVERYONE has a better experience when he or she is able to quickly jump into an application just to get some info, then continue what he or she was doing (e.g. quickly check your next appointment, then continue gaming on the train etc. - lots of examples there).

Especially, when you have very bad notification handling, like on the iPhone!

Of course that also can be achieved by suspending/resuming apps, but more often than not, that concept doesn't work on the iPhone.

I'm sure that MS will provide a better concept (suspending apps without the need for the programmer to support that in his code) but I'd still prefer FULL multitasking.

There are situations where something just isn't possible without full multitasking.

And by the way, you should really inform yourself what multitasking is, how it works or not on iPhone, WM, Android etc. BEFORE you post about it. You got a lot of things wrong in your posts, it's no fun having to correct such wrong assumptions all the time.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
So, you have two different measures, and you have arbitrarily decided to describe one of these two measures as "speed" and the other as not "speed", even though both of them are defined in terms of distance covered divided by the time spent doing it, which is, curiously enough, the formal definition of the word "speed"?

It might help if you could at least clarify which of these two different measures of you have decided to classify as "speed", and which you haven't. You could then go on to explain how it is possible for either of these measures to have a high reading if the runner in question cannot move quickly.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I think what seed_al is saying is pretty straightforward. He's talking about fluidity of interface, which has a lot to do with hardware accelerated effects, transitions, animations and such, and also about the heuristics that determine that you want to perform a gesture or scroll, not tap something. This gives the smooth, "light", responsive and accurate interface in the iPhone, and, together with bouncing etc., could constitute what I understand as a "physics engine".

All these things indeed don't determine OS or device raw speed (i.e. sheer computing power).
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
What he's saying may indeed be straightforward, but it's also wrong. :) There isn't any way you can achieve "fluidity" without it being based on speed. If (say) switching from one application happens "smoothly", that's just another way of saying that it happens so quickly that there is no perceptible delay; smoothness is the same thing as speed. If the phone is "responsive" that's because it's fast enough that it responds to user input without any perceptible delay; responsiveness means speed. If an animation is "smooth" it's because the underlying platform has sufficient computing power to animate without any dropped frames, and doesn't slow down because of lack of CPU or memory; again, smoothness means speed. There simply isn't any useful distinction between "fluidity" and "speed"; speed is the only thing that determines fluidity.

EDIT: Possibly the distinction seed_al is trying to make here is actually hardware vs software. The statement "the iPhone is not faster than the HD2, it is simply more fluid" is gibberish - it's like saying "the iPhone is not larger than the HD2, it is simply bigger". Maybe what he means is "the underlying hardware on the HD2 is more powerful than that of the iPhone, but because of the way the HD2's software is written, the actual level of performance you get from the software running on the HD2 is lower than its equivalent on the iPhone" but that's not at all the same thing: that doesn't mean the iPhone is "slower" it means it is faster, but that the reason for the speed differential is software- rather than hardware-based. If that is what he means, then I wish he'd say so, rather than come up with incomprehensible analogies about runners....
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
EXACTLY

And @others (Shasarak etc.)

What I'm saying is COMPLETELY RIGHT. You guys just don't get it. :rolleyes:

Of course things can be fast without being fluid (the fast runner who stops every few hundred meters). And of course things can be fluid without being fast (the slow runner who doesn't stop).

I can move slowly (walking home = slow but fluid) and arrive later but nevertheless have a better experience than if I take the bus (move fast, but with waiting time = fast but not fluid).

That's exactly what happens on phones. One phone may do things faster than another, but nevertheless, a user can have a better experience with the slower phone, because it does things fluidly.

Fluidity can create the PERCEPTION of speed and the other way round. But that does NOT (!!!!!) make them the same thing.

The fastest phone feels slow when it's not fluid. The slowest phone feels fast when it is fluid. That's a really simple truth and and it's totally obvious that speed and fluidity can't be the same thing, when it's possible for a phone to have only one of them.

Fluidity is the key to the iPhone's user experience. And it's really much more important for the user experience than raw speed. Microsoft understands that, that's why one of the biggest new features in WM6.5 was a physics engine (compare the new fluid scrolling to the old TouchFlo scrolling from HTC).
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
I think a good example of this would be to think of two devices. Let's say one is powerhouse and one is fluid, and on such device you go to open the same application.

On the powerphone it takes 3 seconds to load the app but you just see the icon highlighted until all of a sudden the app just pops up in full form.

On the fluid device it takes 5 seconds to load the app but after you hit the icon a animation of a windows shoots from the icon to a full screen and a loading bar with a percentage loaded animation plays. Although this device took longer to open the app it feels faster because there is something to look at while you're opening it. You know something is happening and you're not just waiting for something to happen. This is fluidity not speed.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
EXACTLY. And this exactly describes the situation of Windows Mobile vs. iPhone OS: One of them (Windows Mobile on a fast device) may open the application faster, but the other one (iPhone OS) FEELS faster, because it shows a fluid animation while loading the application. One of them is fast, the other one is fluid.

Of course that also applies to scrolling, zooming and other things (on the iPhone, the screen content always follows your finger - in HTC Sense and Android, there's a disturbing threshold and often noticeable lag and the content tries to catch up with your finger instead of immediately following it).

Which one offers the better experience? That, of course, depends on how much slower the fluid one actually is - and of course it depends on the user.

Think HD2 vs. iPhone 3G: The HD2 is four times faster than the iPhone, nevertheless some users may have a better experience with the fluid iPhone - while power users certainly put more emphysis on speed, thus may have a better experience with the HD2.

Is that really hard to understand :confused:

That's really basic stuff. From what Microsoft does, you can see that they do understand it. Their WM6.5 physics engine is a lot like the iPhone's, i.e. screen content follows your finger (there's lag here and there, mostly because they've put that modern physics engine in a very old OS that was not designed for this, but it's still better than Android and Sense IMO).
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
if you say so....

close / open or switch

what difference does it make a long as it takes you back to where you left off??
[Windows Phone 7 General] style1:
the difference is time and speed. If I open an XLS file from an email and I want to switch to an sms, in order to get back to that XLS file in the email I have to go back to email and open the XLS file on the Iphone, I can simply switch tasks on WM. HUGE DIFFERENCE

~style1~
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Actually, if you watch the videos you'll notice that WP7's Back button works very much like Alt+Tab, so switching between apps is quite easy there, unlike the iPhone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
he he

I was playing a game (rosco meteor) and pressed the "end call" button to go back to the today screen. The game was still on in the background.

I then clicked on "albums" and it took like 15 seconds for it to bring it up. On top, the scrolling of the pictures was extremely poor.

I tried to open up the task manager, it took another 10 seconds.

Is this the kind of multitasking we want? Not me.

Games hog memory. I do not want the games to be running if it is going to affect my foreground actions. Sorry sir.

On top of that, the fking task manager would not respond to killing the game.

I tried to switch back to the game, and it would not respond.

I had to soft reset.

bull****.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
Games are an exception.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
As a matter of fact, many games pause themselves when their main windows lose focus. That's easy to do with current Windows APIs, it's just sloppy coding.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
So? we still suffer due to that exception.

I have to think twice before I start a game on my phone. Often I don't play because it will hamper other activities on the phone.

Why couldn't MS taken care of it? because microsoft doesn't know. the application developer created a game without microsoft's knowing. how can WM6.5 treat it any different. I expect WP7 to know this difference.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
That would be great. See, actually we agree here I think. WP7 should know the difference between things that should run and thins that should not run in the background.

Games should not, of course. They're an exception because they slow the phone down. Most other programs don't and having them run in the background can even speed up (!!) the experience (no loading times when you just want to quickly swith to an app for getting a piece of information).

I sometimes have TomTom, iGO8, Kinoma Play AND Opera running and I don't even notice it (on the HD2 of course). Those are really heavy applications.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
It's now confirmed: Windows Mobile uses Push Notifications.

I hate to say that, but... I told you so.

(now let's hope that doesn't mean multitasking is gone completely)