yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
Yes but Andriod is starting to have real problems with fragmentation. There devices are getting to different just like WM has done in the past. There are already many apps that won't work on every device. It'll be nice for once to download a app for my phone and know it will work with having to check the resolution or processor type. I do think Andriod is the new WM in that respect.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Utter nonsense.

That's what people with no clue say about Android, when they can't find other arguments against it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/29/exclusive-android-froyo-to-take-a-serious-shot-at-stemming-plat/

There is proof all over the web and even google knows there is a problem with it. So if you don't believe me believe them. I've used Android I never said it was completely broken or anything. It just wasn't doing anything for me. I'm not closed minded I've played with all the Phone OS's and desktop OS's.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
If Google really thought there was a problem, they'd force restrictions. The plan described there makes sense, but doesn't adress the "issue" at all, except for Google's apps.

In reality, there isn't an issue. If a certain app doesn't run on your phone, it won't show up in the market. Phone upgrades usually go from lower to higher spec'd hardware, which means most likely more apps will run on the newer phone than on the old one.

The developer interest in Android also shows, that developers aren't too concerned. Developers are much more concerned about the restrictions they find on WP7, than about the fragmentation of Android.

Those restrictions make many projects impossible, whereas the fragmentation just means a bit more work to do.

Also, if they don't force restrictions, it means more phones will run Android. That means more people buying software, which makes up for the additional work developers have to do.

The only "issue" I can see is people buying cheap phones and then complaining that it doesn't work as well as the high-end Android phone they keep hearing about. But those are stupid people, anyway.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
Considering the platform is open source I don't even think they can put restrictions on it. I think people are complaining because they get a popular phone like the droid and then after getting it they find out that the specs arent that great and the OS is outdated and yes it won't run all the apps that something maybe like the EVO will.

That maybe but developer interest tripled after MIX in WP7 after all the restrictions were announced. That says something atleast. Of course Andriod interest is still way higher but thats because Andriod is out and successful. I'm sure alot of developers will want to wait and see if WP7 can take off before putting there effort into it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Not all of it is open source.

Actually, I'm sure the Droid runs everything that the EVO does. ;)

And the OS gets updated OTA (though most people don't even notice the difference I think). Even iPhone users have to wait for OS updates, so what?
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
No they can't do it. Because the whole point of Android is to have as many terminals to access their services as possible and that includes cheap crappy devices. And because it's not feasible politically because their value proposition for OEMs and operators includes being members of an "alliance", thus influencing the platform development and of course the right to put crapware on devices.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
The problem is not all the phones get updates and not at the same time like iphone OS. What version of andriod is the G1 at? 1.6? I doubt it will ever see another update. Of course when a phone hits it two year old mark I don't think developement should continue on it but it would be nice if everything could update all at once. I was just using the driod and EVO as an example I don't have either one so I don't know what each can run. I do know that the droid isn't packing a snapdragon though.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
You can only upgrade your OS if the OEM makes it available for your phone. And that's because their is fragmentation.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
Does the G1 need another update? I do't think so. It's not like iPhone OS, where critical features come with the updates.

You can only upgrade your iPhone if Apple makes it available. So what? It's the same thing. And as said before, Android updates are not as crucial as iPhone OS updates. You're not missing much, if you have to wait a bit longer.

Nothing wrong there.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Really? Native Exchange functionality, video codec support, consistent multitouch support, and, heck, Google's own apps like Google Earth don't sound like inconsequential minor things to me. Some of them will never come, of course, but that's another issue.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
There is native Exchange functionality, I'm using it.

Video codec support? I don't miss anything. Besides, the iPhone only supports one single codec. And will your Windows Mobile phone ever get DiVX hardware acceleration?

Mutlitouch? Works. It's not Windows Mobile. ;)

All of the things you're talking about are better on Android than on Windows Mobile. Just like pretty much everything else.

Well, I consider this discussion finished, cause this thread is about iPhone and WP7. If you want to learn more about Android, open a new one. ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
It's incomplete.

Congratulations. iPhone sucks in terms of video playback options as well. WM does, too. That's still functionality that's missing. You won't get it in OTA updates, but you can get it from, say, Samsung. Talking about WP7, it will have almost everything out of the box. Additional things can be pushed via OTA updates to all devices regardless of who manufactured them. The concept is really the best out there. Hail to OEM meddling restrictions. Others suck though.

WM won't get anything. WP7 will get it out of the box.

Not on all devices. Not well on all devices.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
Started that thread for andriod let's take the discussion here and continue to talk iphone vs wp7 here.
[Windows Phone 7 General] MonkeyMHz:
Its all personal preference, I didn't go Iphone because I wanted a good quality camera in my phone.

As for the manufacturing materials, everything is made cheaply now days. I would say Mac/Apple in general makes pretty decent stuff, but its not much better if at all any better than most other companies.

My ZuneHD and Omnia II is manufactured extremely well imo.

I heard some people (including 2-3 friends) who had dead pixels on their IPhones after a little while that was not replaced because it was a cosmetic issue and they refuse to replace a device with 3-4 dead pixels. I'm sure other companies have that too.

I think WinMo7 and Iphone are targeted more at personal/entertainment use than business.

As for Apple as a company, can be pretty greasy, I don't like how they operate. But I have to hand it to them they are decent, but you cannot compare Mac with Windows, completely different things. Apple has always been a company that builds a PC and optimizes a OS for it, as for Microsoft is purely a Software company.

They both have their uses, +'s and -'s.

Also iTunes is one of the most horrible and poor software abominations I have ever seen..

I absolutely hate the GUI of Macs/Iphone, its ok at first but ugh, the fisher price styled ages 4+ glossy buttons get annoying. The whole design feels like Im operating a kids toy. But thats personal preference.

Iphone shines is apps and games, aside from that its nothing great.

'Nuff said?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
"Mac" isn't a company...
[Windows Phone 7 General] Sethos II:
I gues noone knows... maybe this: http://www.intomobile.com/2008/07/14/iphone-3g-isnt-plastic-zirconia-ceramic-casing.html

But the iPhone not exactly known for good reception quality... since that zirkonia stuff is made to improve reception, it either isn't that or it doesn't work.

Besides, I think it doesn't really matter what it's made of. It seems pretty well documented, that the material, whatever it is, is not suitable.

I mean, otherwise there wouldn't be so many issues, right?

I think it doesn't matter what it's made of, as long as it's durable. You can't say that about the iPhone, it seems...
[Windows Phone 7 General] MonkeyMHz:
I meant Apple. My bad, but you know what I meant.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Drobilliard:
Savestate

Surely a developer could just save a saved state of the application currently running upon close with a prompt to ask if you want to exit or save current state. Then just save a memory grab and all software variables etc to a file. I'm not a phone developer but that is how I would do it if I needed to on the web.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Fermat:
I love how this thread talks about Apple selling a low quality phone and now they did it again with the iPhone 4 and its flawed antenna design!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] gom99:
Given the millions of companies out there, I wouldn't put my money on that statement :).
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
Then why have they said specifically that pandora will work in the background?
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
They have not.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
Watch the 22 minute demo I'm pretty sure that's where I've heard them talk about it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
No, they have not. They just said it would go into the music hub. No word on whether it can run in the background then.

Would be nice of course if they could at least solve the issue for stremaing apps (other than listen to music, there's also the issue that you have to reload a video if you close and repoen the application - which makes it pretty much unusable).

But anyway, I doscovered that I'm switching a lot between applications. It simply gets annoying when they have to close and reopen all the time, cause that adds a lot of loading times.

So even if they had multitasking for music streaming, I would not use WP7, cause that's simply not enough.
[Windows Phone 7 General] mlin:
If this is the plan for multitasking I think its brilliant! As long as I can switch back to an app and resume from where I left off, this would be an awesome implementation of multitasking.
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
It's responsiveness does. Simple case in point:

Any given iPhone app has 100% use of the CPU (of course shared with system services). This means you can have an app that uses 10%, 50% or 100% (just arbitrary numbers) with free reign of resources.

On a multitasking phone, CPU is shared between apps and services. So an app using 50% may be fine. But an app using 25%, plus an app using 60%, plus system services is going to cause a slowdown plain and simple.

If a CPU is restricted to one app then slowdowns are not likely because how often will an app demand 100% on its own? If CPU cycles are available as a free-for-all (true multi-tasking), then you are going to get into performance issues.

If smoothness and responsiveness was simply a product of a kick-ass physics engine, then certainly WM6.x would have a kick-ass physics engine by now.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
That is a big statement. Very hard for you to prove.

When all the CPU + GPU are available to one panel at a time, vs multiple windows, there will be a difference. You may not notice it. But I certainly do.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
FYI....the google maps navigation stops when that window is not on top even on the multitasking WM6.5. I tried it myself. so there you go.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Tester1975:
I don't know if multitasking will be available but I'm sure that there will be multitasking or a similar approach that will satisfy the needs of 90% of the users.

Anyway... the discussion is to much focussed on the multitasking issue.

I've watched the Barcelona WP7 presentation (the full video) and there were a lot of interesting information. Therefore, beside of all the "first look" videos you might have watched, I would recommend these:

1. Hubs vs. Apps what is the real difference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcr-jNYLlDc

2. And a really good and short summary of the features covered the press conference by an US-Soldier :rolleyes: : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhFvH5CRwnk
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
What about a REAL navigation app that voices turn-by-turn directions. You don't want that to suspend in the background.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
Does it suspend in WM6.5? I don't have one so cannot comment on it.
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
no, it keeps on running and announcing turns even in the background...which is desirable.
[Windows Phone 7 General] pilgrim011:
Just to confirm - this is correct.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Kloc:
Guess we will find out at MIX for sure. Until then everything is speculation.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
even if you are on the phone???

that would be funny if you are listening to the copilot and your wife at the same time :D while you are driving.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Definitely makes sense... after all, you want to get directions while on the phone, too.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Haha... how much have they invested in WM6.5 over the last year? It's just a stop-gap release, almost all their investments went into WP7S. Compare that to Apple investing billions in their iPhone and you know why Apple has a kick-ass physics engine and Microsoft has not (actually, WM6.5's physics engine isn't that bad - still better than HTC's or Google's in some aspects).

And by the way: What were the changes from WM6.1 to WM6.5? A lock screen, a home screen plugin and.... a physics engine!

So, don't you think, when compiling a stop-gap release with investing minimal resources, one would only add the most important features? Apparently, the physics engine is one of them.

Ever compared scrolling, zooming etc. on an iPhone to Android, WM and HTC sense? If you did, you would notice that on the iPhone, whatever you drag around (lists etc.) exactly follows you finger. When you pinch to zoom, the screen content exactly follows you finger. And so on... on the other phones, there's always a threshold, plus the screen content never follows your finger, it always starts late and tries to catch up to your finger, which leads to the impression of lag/sluggishness.

That's one of Apple's "secrets" to UI fluidity. Of course, there are also great, fluid animations, compared to ugly screen redrawing on WM and other stuff.

All this has absolutely nothing to do with multitasking. It doesn't matter whether you have 20 apps running in the background on any phone, while comparing it to the iPhone, or you compare it immediately after soft reset: You always get the same results.

Of course, it's not necessary to keep everything open in the background. On the other hand, keeping at least the one or two last used programs open will even get you an impression of more speed, because users often quickly switch to an application to check something and then back to the previous one, which, in this case, is still running and doesn't have to be loaded again.

So multitasking can even make things appear faster. And to prevent it from slowing anything down, you can always give the foreground application a maximum of resources and let the background apps only share the rest.

(most of the time, they won't even need them, cause most of the background apps will simply idle while the user doesn't interact with them - if they don't, the user typically wants them to do some work and knows what's going on).
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
and on top your girlfriend texts you an obscene message that starts blurting out and your wife on the other line will be :mad:

c'mon guys....make some better sense.

1 Sound application at a time

1 window/panel - the one foreground - at a time

multiple data push/fetch processes in the background

This is what makes sense.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
+1

exactly what I want on the WP7. The beta in hands of Joe did not even come close in the fluidity of the iphone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
You need to get directions, even when on a call.

True, but have you seen the first demos of WM6.5 a year ago? They were much worse and the OS got faster and faster on its way to RTM. So, there's hope for WP7S.

Nevertheless, I doubt they'll reach iPhone fluidity. But on the other hand, better hardware (like a camera that doesn't suck or a WVGA screen) and features like multitasking, if they were there, would definitely make up for that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
I don't remember how TomTom does in this situation.

Will it keep announcing direction? Or turn silent ...

Personally, I would like everything else turned silent automatically when there is incoming phone call. Whether it is navigation direction announcement, background music, radio, internet radio.

I want to hear the incoming phone call as clear as possible.

Often, I "ssshhh" my wife when I am listening phone call, especially in the car.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
Here is the problem....form factor + fluidity is what made the iphone such a success.

The lack of hi-res camera, cut+paste did not even figure into the picture.

Give me 2 hands instead of six and make me human and not a spider.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
It would have made it even more successful for sure. Probably Apple would rule the world now, had they figured out how to put in a good camera, copy&paste, multitasking etc. at the same price ;)

I'd definitely have bought one, cause I want a good camera and those other features.

That's frightening...
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
But they know better than to cater to a spec fight.

They want the user to have a wonderful experience, and not worry about specifications.

Even though camera is no hi-res, the results are good. There are no digital artifacts on the pictures commonly found in low end cameras.

Frankly speaking, other than us geeks out here, every other person in this world has some "real" work to do i.e. Sales, buying, management, taking care of kids, production, etc. They do not have the time nor the inclination to deep dive into the backend of the phone. They want something that is easy to use and does exactly what you think it would do.

Attached are 2 pictures from iphone and 2 from the ATT Pure resized autmatically by the phone to upload to Facebook.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Sorry, but that's no excuse for a crappy camera and screen resolution.

(Btw. the Pure's camera is not that much better - both suck. And the Pure's processor is one of the worst cellphone processors ever created, so don't blame Windows Mobile or multitasking if you Pure is incredibly slow and laggy)

Sure, the average user doesn't care about MHz and performance per clock, but he cares about good pictures and a readable screen.

And he cares about good quality. The iPhone is made of extremely cheap materials. The Apple logo gets scratched without ever putting it on any hard surface, and many iPhones get micro cracks.

Also, that's one reason why many people have been dissatisfied with Windows Mobile handsets. They expect a fluid experience, but the Qualcomm MSM chipsets used by HTC (like the one in your Pure) were crap. Maybe some even looked at the specs and saw 528Mhz - which doesn't sound bad - but what almost nobody knows is that the MHz count isn't a guarantee for speed: The iPhone 3GS's 600MHz processor is at least twice, if not three times as fast as the Pure's 528MHz processor.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
I agree with you but then how is it that we are still not in agreement???

like I said, the iphone camera res is lower, but picture "quality" is good enough for the user, not geeks.

Processor speed: the iphone 3g has 412 MHz.

So I was happy so see pure have 528mhz.

Little did I realize that they came from different family.

Even a person with some computer knowledge like me got "Scammed" by the Mhz :p...what can I say about common people?
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
No it isn't. That's where I won't agree with you ;)

Of course not everyone wants a good camera in his phone. The iPhone's camera may be good enough for uploads to Twitter (as long as you don't try to take party pics at night).

But for anyone who wants a good camera in his phone, the iPhone is a no-go (I don't want to take an extra camera all the time, and my HD2 is just good enough to replace one). Sad, because it might be the perfect phone for him otherwise (e.g. I would certainly buy one if the camera and screen were better - I'd even give up multitasking :D).

Exactly. And most people don't even look at the MHz. They simply want a fluid experience.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amb9800:
Actually they come from the same family-- the 3GS has an ARM Cortex A8 at 600 MHz, but the iPhone 2G/3G just have an ARM11 at 412 MHz. The Qualcomm MSM72xx is also an ARM11 chip, running at 528 MHz.

Besides its lack of floating point hardware (the iPhone chip has the VFP option, which the iPhone OS uses heavily but which would be pretty useless in WM6.x), the MSM72xx actually has faster CPU and GPU hardware than the iPhone 3G. The ATI Imageon GPU in the MSM72xx is roughly 4x faster than the iPhone 3G's PowerVR MBX Lite.

It's all about implementation-- and that's where Apple seems to dominate. The iPhone 2G/3G with a measly 412 MHz ARM11 are still smoother than an HTC HD2 running a 1 GHz Snapdragon and even the Asus WP7 demo unit (running an unidentified Snapdragon chip).
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
Not without drivers ;)

Smoother, but not faster. Which, again, proves my point that a kick-ass physics engine and smooth transitions can be worth much more than pure speed. ;)

In fact, the iPhone 3G is pretty slow. The HD2 is MUCH faster. But Apple's nice transitions and physics make even the old iPhone 3G seem fast, and that's what counts in the end - not the raw numbers, like loading times, but the experience the user has.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
wow...i seem to learn something new everyday here.

MS...u r on the hook.better come out with something that is more "fluid" and less heavy/stupid animations.
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
iPhone has several advantages that result in more fluidity:

1) No multitsking and the overhead that multitasking uses (context switching/swapping). Every "feature" of an OS has a cost of CPU and/or memory.

2) One app doesn't have to share system RAM and other resources with other apps.

3)Typical WM resolutions of VGA and WVGA are more CPU intensive than the 320x480 of iPhone.

4) iPhone OS seems to give higher priority to GUI operations.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
You'll never get it, will you? *SIGH*

Fluidity and speed are two totally different things.

It doesn't matter whether you have ten thousand apps or none running in the background and it doesn't matter what your screen resolution is - an Android or WM phone will never be as fluid as an iPhone.

All your points are WRONG. Sorry.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Think the other way around.

Do you think the iPhone will still as fluid as like now, if:

- it has bigger screen resolution

- it has full multitasking

- it runs Snapdragon

- it uses resistive screen

- it uses HD2 hardware

- it runs Windows Mobile 6.x OS, jk :)

You never know.
[Windows Phone 7 General] seed_al:
You can actually jailbreak an iPhone and have it run applications in the background. Try it and check whether it has any effect on fluidity ;)

yes

no

(WM won't make it slower, but of course less fluid)

;)