yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] amb9800:
There's no police force in the world that can stop you from buying a gun and killing someone if you're skilled and determined enough. Does that mean they won't even try to make it more difficult for you to do?

Actually, it can be the manufacturer's legal responsibility if the product is found to unreasonably enable illegal activities (e.g. certain P2P software). Middlemen like ISPs and software makers are given some safe haven, but the details are obviously still contentious.

Anti-piracy measures are something the content owners push for and which companies like Apple and Microsoft have to implement in order to in turn sell it to you. Sure, both Apple and Microsoft want to lock you into their proprietary systems, but who's to tell them they can't do that? (unless they unfairly abuse a monopoly, etc., but that's a different issue)

Sure, they could be-- why not? If someone introduced a "smart gun" on the market, no one would be forcing you to buy that. Similarly, if you think the iPhone, iTunes, Zune, Zune Marketplace, etc. are too limiting, buy something else.

Apple's selling you a phone with access to their iTunes store. The iTunes store gives you access to music and videos from the studios, which impose licensing terms on Apple in exchange for listing in iTMS. There are some restriction on end-user usage that they're legally bound (by license with content owners) to enforce and others they find commercially convenient. Apple has the full right to do what they please with their product-- if people don't like it, they're free to vote with their dollars and go elsewhere.

That sounds more like "capitalist" to me.

I'm sure lawlessness is fun, until someone steals something you make and deprives you of your rights.

Think about it-- musicians, programmers, artists, writers, etc. have to live somehow, and if no one were to enforce intellectual property rights, there'd be no incentive for anyone to do anything, because someone could just steal what you make with impunity. How is that a good thing?

I agree that it's consumers' responsibility (and indirectly the media and others) to pressure companies for openness, etc.-- and there's definitely a problem in that so few people question, for example, what Google does with your information while offering you "free" services, or what Apple or Microsoft get from locking you into something.

But there's a difference between saying that, for example, a particular implementation of DRM is limiting, and saying that the whole system of intellectual property protection and companies that go along with it are somehow wrong or "fascist."
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
@amb9800,

Thanks for your response. You echo most of my thoughts on points raised by Spike.

@Spike15

Apple is not trying to completely stop you from sharing musics across more than one devices. Of course they're not saying that you can't put the music that you've already purchased to any computer of your OWN computer. iTune does allow you to rip your music from your CD and play it on your devices. However, if you put yourself in the shoe of the music artists, such features could be opened to abuses and as the author of intellectual properties, the tendency is to put in as much restrictions as possible such that they generate more sales and profits. If there's no restriction, everyone could be photocopying all the text books, duplicating all musics to the detriment of the author. However, in real life, we do lend our CD and books to our friends, and it would be legal. This is what I see as reasonable use in the physical world. In the digital world, the ease of copying makes this very trickly. The ease and speed of duplicating intellectual properties can completely discourage anyone from producing works. That's probably why TomTom didn't want to release a winmo version of its software, because so few people actually buy the genuine copy. Therefore, I do not have problem seeing certainly restrictions placed on the sync mechanism. Up to 5 devices and PC seems reasonable to me. Do you seriously believe that Apple does not know how to make it sync to unlimited number of PC technically if they can produce such high quality product? It is just their way of balancing the interest of the music producer and consumers IMO. You might not agree on it's effectiveness. If you know of a way, tell us. Tell us how you can achieve that balance. If you have a scheame that can better serve the interest of both the music/application producers and consumers, may be you should outline your suggestion. If we think that you're talking sense, may be we will all support you and petition these big companies to adopt your idea.

For goodness sake, leave behind all these talks about fascism. You sound silly if you keep doing that.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amb9800:
Yeah hopefully, though at this point the WP7 Office apps don't seem very useful. The Word app is in tough competition with Notepad and Wordpad in terms of features, lol.

On the iPhone, apps can use web content (to display, stream, etc.) or download files from the web to their isolated storage, but they also have access to peer-to-peer comms, which is how the various apps that let you copy files from a PC (over Wifi, etc.) work. Of course, they require client software on the PC as well because it's not a normal network file-sharing setup (unless you jailbreak).

The app is getting content from somewhere through its own means (which on the iPhone could be internet + peer-to-peer, and on WP7 means just internet) and happens to store it as files in its isolated storage space.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
As I said before, I do not believe that we should allow them to completely dictate what we can or cannot do. If I'm the sheep that you so eagerly paint me to me, I won't be doing any jailbreaking. I believe I should be free to decide to multitask and have functions and features that I want for myself, because having this do not infringe upon the rights of others.

Controls as to how far we can sync has a reason, and that's to protect the rights of music and applications producers. I have no problem subject to the control of the vendors in this regards. I'm not a sheep just because I agree that such controls are reasonable.

When you buy a car, you still have to play by the rules - pay your annual registration fees, have your car inspected for road worthiness, making sure you have license, do not drive under influence, etc, etc. You cannot do anything you want. People who try to stop you are not fascists.

Seems like you're full of bitterness towards the world and society because you feel that you're living in a fascist world and you're not allowed to do anything you want.

Restricted? You think that being able to run the software and music on five phones is still not fair? So, people like me are the reason corporations are evil huh? Oh well. What can I say other than to just say that you have a really distorted world view.

You're all over the place mentioning stuffs which are completely irrelevant, so I won't even bother wasting time replying to your other remarks.

You seems to be all over the place using words like fascism and evil-doers, while lamblasting the viewpoints of others who differ from you instead of just calmly discuss each other's views. Does that make you feel intelligent or what? You profess to be the champion of freedom, yet the way you speak with others on this forum everyone can tell that you're the real abusive, rude, and arrogant fascist. Actions speak louder than words.
[Windows Phone 7 General] chiks19018:
HTC camera software is good......that is until you compare them onscreen against an iphone. :D

HTC users complain that iphone does not have enough megapixels....it is not how many megapixels you have, it is how effectively the camera software can manipulate those megapixels and produce pleasing pictures.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Not true. HTC users complain that the iPhone does not produce good pictures.

Megapixels don't matter, picture quality does. The iPhone does not produce good pictures. Plus, it's completely useless at night, which is when I take most pictures.

I'd be fine with 3 megapixels, but not with bad pictures.

Did I say something different? No, I didn't. The point is, the HD2's case is made of high quality plastic, whereas the iPhone's is made of very cheap, low-quality plastic. That's a fact. Plus, the HD2 has elements of real metal, whereas the iPhone has cheap chrome imitation that gets scratched by just staring at it.

Don't pretend you're not able to read. We both know the iPhone's build "quality" sucks compared to the HD2's. Claiming something else makes you either a liar or a brainwashed Apple fanboy.

As for the rest of the hardware: Let's see whether Apple can beat a 4.3" WVGA display, 1GHz processor and 576MB RAM, 5 megapixels camera with dual LED flash and a battery life that doesn't suck, all within a high quality plastic and/or aluminium case. I bet they can't. ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] cp_kirkley:
Both 3g, and 3G S models. iTunes will work for you if you have somewhere between 1500 to 2000 songs stored in one local directory. If you want to verify problems with syncing libraries from a Nas, Google is your friend. Initial loading of the directory took a little under a DAY. That doesnt include their shoddy retagging and auto-leveling. My nas has a power saving feature where it will sleep if it hasnt been used in 3 hours. Not uncommon at all. If I were start iTunes while my nas was asleep, It would not wake the nas - it would just tell me that my files had disappeared and then ask me to locate all 5312 of them one by one. Let me also add in that this experience was on an Early '08 MBPro. In order to have any sanity at all I would copy directories from my Nas to my local drive, and launch iTunes with a Command/?? button combo keypress to load an alternate library. Which in turn screws up the syncing of apps to the phone - even if both libraries are linked to the same iTunes account. Even tried it with a 1TB Time Machine, but the read/write speed on them is so horrendous that I'd want to rip out my fingernaills whenever moving a decent sized file. Its so bad in fact, that for the last 3 months of my owning my 3G S, I synced my music through MediaMonkey, and only used the app store on the phone, which for some strange reason felt less convoluted than the desktop app.

Suffice it to say that I was more that happy to uninstall once I got back to WinMo.

Now, I could toss my 3 year old Synology box out of of the window and pursue a newer NAS with Built in iTunes Server. But I'm not, I shouldnt have to. A built in iTunes server, while maybe more convenient to the end user who just wants it to "Work", should never have been necessary. Not with the nas supports AFP,SMB and any other networking standard that it should. Winamp 4 could map network shares. You mean to tell me that Cupertino, in its infinite wisdom, couldn't see the need to even think about that kind of situation? While my situation is not the majority, in todays digital climate I think you will find this to be becoming the norm.

Until iTunes recieves an overhaul, much like MS did with Windows Media, which is actually quite excellent from an integrated software POV, no heavy duty music listener would even dream of touching iTunes. No support for .OGG or FLAC (out of the box). At least you'd have the option to re-encode WMA, though who in their right mind would re-encode a library to fit ONE piece of software? Doesnt handle ID3 tags in the same manner that WinAmp, WMP, MediaMonkey, or any other major suite does. Why? Home share is worthless unless you leave your computer on 24 hours a day, which again defeats the purpose of a NAS. iTunes sucks ass, and I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Feel free to Think Different.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
So, your situation is also the same in that you kept your music on your NAS server rather than the local harddisk.

I see this as a problem which can be easily resolved by copying only those music that you want into the local harddisk for iTune sync, since it would be impossible for any current iPhone model to hold all the 5000+ songs anyway.

Obviously you've explained that you do not and would not want to do that and that Apple must cater to your specific situation here. I think if there're enough users out there with this requirement then Apple may consider. I suspect this situation is rare (but I could be wrong), and since there is an easy work around by copying the files to the local harddisk, I think the chance of a revamped iTune to deal with that problem is slim.

At the risk of being label fanboy and defending the indefensible, I would say that this is not such a major disadvantage for iPhone for vast majority of the potential users anyway.

One difficulties of this thread is that we're comparing a vaporware against a real product. We're actually making lots of assumptions on what WP7S would be like. The real performance and degree of optimization could only be known on a case by case, vendor by vendor, model by model basis after they have been released. Hardware wise some may turn out better, some may be not as good, depending on vendors and models.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
You are a fanboy, and you were defending the indefensible.

I have a file server (running Windows Server 2008) which stores all the music for everyone in my family. We have ~11 PCs with WMP pointed at this directory on the file server, and they all function perfectly. If the file server goes down (updates) WMP just stops playing and waits patiently until it comes back up -- it's as though the files were really stored on every PC...but they're not.

When I want to put them on my WM6.5.3 device, I just drag-and-drop them onto my device's MicroSD card.

It's not that hard...in fact it's easier than the DRM- and lock-down-riddled iTunes experience.

Zune integration is one of the big reasons I don't like WP7S. Let me deal with the raw files, **** your bull**** proprietary syncing.

Oh...but I guess actually dealing with the raw files of my music would violate the rights of the artists...right...

...dumbass.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Full of foul mouth as usual. Just goes to prove that there's serious flaw in your character.

Okay, you claim to have lots of brain, let's put it to good use here. Let's start with your conviction that you want to completely bypass all the restriction of iTune music sync, leaving aside the issue of why Apple did it and the issue of copyright protection. The question I want to ask you is, has your tiny little brain told you that it is not possible to do exactly what you're doing on your winmo phone? What's there to stop you from jailbreaking your iPhone, then doing a drag and drop directly into iPhone, and use a third party music player to play off it? If you have just half the brain that you think you have, you could have done that. Not only you could do that, you can also install Cydia applications that search for and download just about any musics directly into your iPhones and use the third party music player to play them. Not so different from what you're doing now on the winmo is it? So now, who is the one with brain and who is the one without? Your argument makes me laugh. Are you going to come back with the do evil, fascist Apple and MS principle again?
[Windows Phone 7 General] Spike15:
I love how the iPhone fanatics bash Windows Mobile saying that it takes a lot of effort to get Windows Mobile shaped into a proper OS (when really all it takes is a quick HSQL and ROM flash, I did it to my HD2 and my girlfriend's HD2 in less than 15 minutes on the day we purchased (which was the first day the T9193 was available in Australia)), and then whenever presented with the crippling inadequacies of the iPhone platform, you fall back on jailbreaking.

The difference here is that once you get your WinMo phone how you want it, you don't have to play cat-and-mouse -- you don't have to be wary of the next software update by Apple, you don't have to be wary of a hardware version that has a certain software version that can't be jailbroken, you just HSPL, ROM flash, and you're golden.

I don't care what you can or can't do with the iPhone once you jailbreak it. The fact remains that you have to jailbreak it.

With that argument you can excuse anything. You can say that the DRM on Spore is fine because you can crack it or that the Sony rootkit was fine because there are tools to remove it.

It's a fallacious argument: Just because there's a way around a restriction does not make that restriction not-wrong.

It's the equivalent of saying that the Romans weren't wrong for oppressing the Christians, because the Christians could still sneak around and meet in private while fearing for their lives.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amb9800:
Jailbroken iPhones are much easier to deal with than modded WM phones.

Even as a power user, I hate the fact that I have to spend days or weeks on end scouring forums to figure out exactly which versions of HSPL to use, which will brick my phone (the particular model number, since different models of the same phone require different tools- ala HSPL and ROMs on T-Mo HD2 (1024 NAND) vs. other HD2s), which intermediate tools to use, which radio to use, which ROM to use, then which patches to apply when things are buggy or just plain broken.

Jailbroken apps and plugins are nicely managed through Cydia-- much neater than the mess found in WM.

On WM, you have to use custom ROMs for decent performance, yet so much of my time is then wasted figuring out random bugs. I'm currently running an EnergyROM build on my T-Mo HD2, for example, and it's running hot, burning through the battery in just a few hours, sometimes the dialer disappears, picture messaging is broken, the keyboard button has random behavior (which is a general 6.5.x bug), the phone often has black screens of death (failure to turn on after sleep), etc. I tried a few other of the popular ROMs, and while they all add something nice, they universally all have problems in core areas for a smartphone (phone, contacts, calendar, browser).

You simply never have to deal with such crap on the iPhone. If you jailbreak, you do it to install certain things you might not find on the iPhone normally, but at least basic functions always work (which is what most people use >90% of the time on the phone), even with the crazier UI mods and such. The OS and whole ecosystem are much more refined.

No one's forcing iPhone users to upgrade to the latest OS.

Of course, the reason this comparison doesn't work is that unlike Microsoft, Apple actually does release new versions of its OS more frequently than, say, a few times a decade, so you have a choice, whereas with MS, you're forced to deal with custom ROMs (which in most cases actually entail stealing software not licensed for use on your phone) in order to get anything newer on your phone.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gullum:
and also the fact is for WM that you have to HARD SPL it

I doubt you you have a long history in rom cooking. all phone prior to Topaz and Rhodium don't have a native wm6.5 nk.exe (the Diamond does have a doubtful one) witch makes all older phones not preform optimal with wm6.5 because what should be stored as modules is instead files this produces more memory leaks. and the truth about hard spl is that sometimes you do need to flash a new hard spl because the old is no longer compatible with the newer builds. and to get the best reception you also need to find a radio rom that works well with your provider.

By Jailbreaking you can do everything you want with your iPhone

On WM it's not enough to just hard spl you also need a cooked rom and as amb9800 stated they do often come with new problems. but all respect to the cooks I know how much time goes into making a good usable and almost perfect rom.

I just can't wait till I get my iPhone so I can Jailbreak it and have no more worries.

Why can't you just except the FACT that not everyone thinks the same as you about Windows mobile?
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Very good point, which I have completely forgotten to mention. Let me also add that if you happen to have bought a relatively unpopular model such as the large Athena, you may not have any user with the skill to hard spl and cook the ROM, unless the users pool their resources together and gift a free unit to someone with the skill to get this done. And remember HTC can't give a damn to the users after that, and you're stuck with an extremely old and often bugggy ROM. If you're lucky, somebody like gullum may become a user and cook us some ROMs. If not, you're stuck with the old ones. Even if you flash the cooked ROMs, the quality differ greatly too, so lots of efforts are needed to battle the problems.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
No matter what pain HSPL is, it is still better than tethered jailbreak.

And HSPL is an HTC thing, not WM. Samsung phones don't have it, for example.

itunes is horrible crap regardless.

Oh, and you don't need custom ROMs for performance.The "optimization" contained there are mostly registry hacks you can have without flashing, and work as placebo more than anything. At most the will boost your benchmark scores, which doesn't mean much in terms of real life. You can have your phone customized with these ROMs though, and that's the point. I'm still running stock stuff that came with my phone, which surprises even me because usually I cook my own ROMs. Overall, I don't like either the iPhone or WM firmware models.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Wait a little more. Tethered jailbreak is going to be a thing of a past. Geohot has already got a way to do it untethered. He says it may also work for iPad. That was announced about three or four days ago. He got a youtube video to show that he's done it.

If you think iTune is ****, you're free to completely not use it, and still be able to it exactly the way you do in winmo. This I have explained many times. Freedom of choice!
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
What's with the talk about HSPL?!

HSPL isn't necessary at all to make a WM phone useful.

Jailbreak is necessary to make an iPhone useful.

You can't compare HSPL to jailbreaking... seriously, use your brains (that is, if it's not been replaced with crap by Apple's brainwashing machine).
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
Most stupid post I've read in a long time...