yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
@cp_kirkley

I don't get it. You started by saying that Apple is now as bad as microsoft not deserving your support. Yet you seems to be all supportive of microsoft. :confused:

Just to stay within the topic, I was trying to counter someone's statement that iPhone suffers disadvantage in terms of build quality.

One person's level of satisfaction with the product is a poor indication of actual quality, as we might be unlucky to have got a faulty unit. My extremely high level of satisfaction with regards to build quality after moving from winmo to iPhone could also be an unreliable indicator. So, for readers on this thread, perhaps more formerly conducted survey and polls are needed to get a more "objective" picture. Since my most recent HTC experience was the HD, that's what I primarily compare my iPhone with.

On built quality problems (such as resistance to scratch, cracks, squeky sounds when part of the phone is pressed, and paint peeling off), I tried to compare my iPhone with my HTC HD.

According to this survey, 14% of iPhone owners mentioned cracks and scratches appearing on their phone. In contrast, about 30% of HTC owners reported creaking sounds when pressed near USB port, and 40% of HTC HD owners reported paint peeling off and scratches was a problem. The paint peeling off problem affects about a quarter of the HD owners according to this poll.

97% of iPhone owners love their iPhone according to this research. This research crowned iPhone as the King in service and reliability, scoring a high 9 out of 10 marks.

I got the impression from reading the posts on the HD2 forum that HD2 has a better built than HD. However, it has other problems. The pink hue in picture and videos have been mentioned. Another problem is the quality of the capacitive touch screen itself, giving strange screen behaviour. This problem seems to be occuring also to some degree in the Nexus One phone.

Ironically, I've been accused of peddling the HTC products by some of my friends, especially after I contributed this 5-parts article that gave the impression that I'm too pro-HTC product. As far as I'm concerned, I'm just calling a spade a spade. I assure you I don't work for HTC or Apple. ;)
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
LOL. What do you know about my life?

So, in your judgement, the "totalitarian draconian regime" should be overthrown, CEO of the year award stripped, the share prices ought to be destroyed, and all the delusioned satisfied users liberated? So, who can run the company to rid Apple of all these evil? You?:D Let us know when you're nominated to be the CEO of the year.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Read: Your life WITH iPhone :)

About totalitarian draconian regime, see the AppStore filtering debacle and the way iPhone users are forced and dictated to do things in their phone.

Those are true and happening, those are hard facts which you cannot deny.

And I dont care with the Apple CEO and what he does or did.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
What about my life? Are you are life guru by any chance? Should I repent of my sinful ways to please you or what?

What filtering debacle? What have I been forced to do in my iPhone? Looks like we need you, Mr Know All CEO and the Great Life Guru to enlighten us.

Perhaps you should take over the CEO position from the Steve Jobs dictator? The world will be rid of all ills with you in charge, I'm sure.

Time for me to go to bed. I've a round of morning golf game early tomorrow. I hope you allow me to live such life, Mr Life Guru. Good night.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Yupe, you dont have to deny all those.

If you dont know about iPhone AppStore filtering debacle then you can Google it, or of course you can pretend to ignore it. I wont repeat all the stories from all over the internet about this.

If I can take over Steve Jobs as CEO, for sure I will give you freedom, start with fixing those AppStore filtering (you dont get it do you?), you can change battery, you can have sd card ... mmm what else? too many to mention.

But of course I cant replace Steve Jobs, are you nuts? :D Thus, enjoy your limited iPhone life :D

Again, as you said, you are free to disagree *LOL*
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
You make it sounds like Apple has committed some serious crime against humanity, but unfortunately googling using the term "Phone AppStore filtering debacle" did'nt give me anything meaningful. So, please spell it out what this debacle is all about. Are you having objection to the need to have applications approved before it is listed in the App Store? Or that some sexy applications were removed from the App Store recently due to user complaint? Is that what you're having problem with? Wow. That's a crime. How could they do such an evil thing when our Life Guru specifically instructed us not to do things like this! Naughty naughty naughty Steve Jobs.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Who says is a crime? No, it is not, but you finally got it.

But I doubt that you really got it :D

If not remember this word ... Freedom of choice ... this is simply a precious thing you don't have in your iPhone.

And again, that's the fact.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
You know this is a lie. The HD2's build quality is worlds better than the iPhone's.

Again, a lie. Can it get more obvious?!

The rest of your post is full of lies as well, but there's no point in answering to all of it, cause it's bull**** from the first word to the last.

I'm not going to say more than that, there's no point in talking to liars. The nonsense you spread here is certainly not woth being answered.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
You're always free to choose or reject iPhone. Nobody can put a gun to your head to strip you of your freedom. It just so happen that more and more have chosen this platform and from I can see it's doing very well. So well that the idea is being copied by its rival.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
If you know a bit about what has been going on within MS for the last three years, you understand why they're copying Apple.

Their mobile division is completely screwed. They've done nothing after the iPhone came out. Lots of fights about the direction, but nothing happened for more than one and a half years. In the end, they had to accept that they could not come up with any original ideas and they were so screwed and envious at Apple that copying the iPhone was all that they had in mind.

In fact, they've been working on WM7 even before the first iPhone came out... and it wouldn't have been bad, but after the iPhone launch, nothing happened anymore for a long time, until they completely dumped all their work and started their iPhone copy.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
How do you know so much of the inside story? Are you from MS yourself?
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
No, but I know a few people since I'm programming (hence my name) and I'm very interested in everything that has to do with smartphones (that's why I have so many... :D).

But I think Ballmer once said publicly that they've "revamped the team", that was when the "let's copy iPhone" guys won, they dumped all the WM7 efforts and started from scratch. I would have preferred WM7...

[Back to topic]

...that would at least have had a few advantages over the iPhone, whereas WP7S is just a copy with no apps vs. 200.000 ones for the iPhone.

(and no copy&paste... how ridiculous is that, now that the iPhone has it?)

The only advantage could be the hardware. But who knows, maybe Apple (finally) come up with good hardware in June.

(though the HD2/Evo are hard to beat, hardware-wise)

Would anyone still buy WP7S then?

I'd rather go with the iPhone (assuming they do not manage to make jailbreaking "impossible").
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
We're in no disagreement about MS's unforgivable slowness to react to changing market, failure to realize that there's a new reality and use it, with other things, but I seriously disagree with this "copying the iPhone" and "coming up with nothing new" notion.

They did copy much of Apple's business model in mobile and Apple's approach to development in terms of priority of design over raw functionality, UI fluidity over PC-like power, stability and security over ease of access, controlled environment over "let's give the guys a Lego and let them do the rest for us" approach, and I don't welcome many of their decisions (to a point where I will not buy an early WP7 device probably). They also did copy some features like multitouch or push notifications. However, saying that WP7 is an iPhone clone and that they didn't come up with anything new is a big stretch. Their UI, whether you like it or not, is indeed different from everything else (even though the pieces of it aren't new per se - the live tiles are essentially widgets). The development tools, although focused on rapid development (because they do need to quickly fill Marketplace with tons of fart apps which they laughed at initially), are amazing in that they allow almost anyone with Photoshop skill to develop a fart app. You can also argue that Silverlight APIs are much more limited and restrictive than Objective C can ever dream of. :) So yes, there are a lot of similarities (heck, this thing is supposed to make phone calls as well), but there are differences as well. It's a different take on the same thing, but still quite different.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Two years ago I watched a video interview between the CE6 development team and a technical writer. The concept of the OS presented then is vastly different from wp7s.

Later on I read about three different competing projects going on: wm7, the pink phone, and the zune phone. They don't talk yo each other according to that report. Perhaps they were trying to be the first one to produce the deliverable and did not want to help out the competing teams. Or they may genuinely want everyone to think from scratch and not influenced by existing ways . So, I was taken by surprise when the final product borrowed the design concept wholesale from iPhone, of course with cosmetic changes to look like a different product. The physical store, the application store, vastly restricted hardware specification to minimise screen varieties, use of internal storage only, multitouch, copy and paste strategy, controlled application listing, etc etc.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Two years ago or so there was some hour-long joint interview with Jobs and Gates. Among many other things, they talked about "post-pc devices", which Microsoft calls "vertical". Gates was saying things in the line of "there are markets where our PC approach works and markets where it doesn't". There was no certainty at the time about how phones would evolve but you could easily see that Apple-ish approach was a possible scenario. I doubt they went so far as actually developing something and making radical decisions until recently though.

If UI is what you center your deveopment on, it's not a "cosmetic change" but the key thing you work on. Other things, be it multitasking or copy and paste are secondary, and you can take the approach like "if it worked for Apple, it may work for us, let's deal with it later". Whether this is true or not and right or not is a different issue but I don't think that you'll deny that such a perspective is possible.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amb9800:
Awesome! I applaud your great way with words. The best method to get your point across, as you demonstrate, is clearly to call everyone else a liar, especially if they use these pesky things called facts.
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
If I remember correctly, during this same interview, they were asked to name one thing they admire about the other. Jobs said he admired MS ability to partner with other companies. Gates said he admired Apple's ability to deliver a great user-experience. :eek:
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I think Gates said something about Jobs's taste, but nevertheless. Since then Apple made the Appstore, so it's Microsoft's turn.
[Windows Phone 7 General] cp_kirkley:
I would not be surprised to see a similar number of quality assurance complaints on the apple side, if 97% percent love using the phone. The ease of use goes a long way to quelling any nitpicky attitudes.

As far as my statement about Apple, yes, they are approaching MS's Tech-Nazi-Bent-On-World-Domination thing. I find it interesting because it seems in the past couple of years, the roles have reversed slightly. Not that one would ever call MS the little guy...

But in either case, to be totally honest with you, I don't think EITHER company DESERVES my money, but currently, who else can I give it to? If I wanted the HD2, I needed MS in my life. If I decide to sell the HD2 and get an Xperia X10, then I guess its Google time. But my support of their product does not necessarily mean I support their actions. I just like cool tech.:cool:
[Windows Phone 7 General] cp_kirkley:
I would not be surprised to see a similar number of quality assurance complaints on the apple side, if 97% percent love using the phone. The ease of use goes a long way to quelling any nitpicky attitudes.

As far as my statement about Apple, yes, they are approaching MS's Tech-Nazi-Bent-On-World-Domination thing. I find it interesting because it seems in the past couple of years, the roles have reversed slightly. Not that one would ever call MS the little guy...

Everyone knows iTunes blows. Buggy, slow, and woefully inadequate system for handling music not purchased from iTunes. If i had known I would have to retag all 5k plus songs I have on my NAS to have them display properly on an iPhone... And now that I'm back to WinMo, here I go again.../Facepalm

But in either case, to be totally honest with you, I don't think EITHER company DESERVES my money, both companies are guilty of price gouging and egregious business ethics. However, in the current time, who else can I give it to? If I wanted the HD2, I needed MS in my life. If I decide to sell the HD2 and get an Xperia X10, then I guess its Google time. But my support of their product does not necessarily mean I support their actions. I just like cool tech - whoever catches my eye, will catch my dollar.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
I only call you a liar, cause you clearly are. And you know it.

Or maybe you are not? Maybe you went through the Apple reality distortion field and that's why you talk bull****?

Anyway, reality is, the HD2 has MUCH better build quality and takes MUCH better pictures. Not to mention the MUCH better display...

...anyone who ever had an HD2 and an iPhone and is of sound mind will be able to confirm that.

Or does the HD2 get hairline cracks and scratches? No, it doesn't. Mine is now 5 months old and is in absolute perfect condition. It looks perfectly new. That's due to very high quality materials (soft touch plastic that doesn't get scratched, aluminium etc.).

My iPhone already looked like 3 years old after a few days of using it. That's because it is made of very cheap, "chewy" plastic and susceptible "chrome" color instead of real metal.

And this says enough about the camera: http://www.cnet.com.au/camera-showdown-nexus-one-vs-iphone-3gs-339300403.htm

WORLDS of difference there, with the Nexus One camera being far superior. And the HD2 camera is even better, especially with the drivers on the TMO US HD2. E.g. it also has selective autofocus and refocuses automatically, things that the testers were missing on the Nexus One vs. the iPhone.

The screen? Well, 4.3" WVGA vs. 3.5" HVGA don't even need to be discussed. But I will mention the terrible viewing angles of the iPhone screen.

Same for 576MB RAM and 1GHz ARMv7 vs. 256MB RAM vs. 600MHz and ARMv7 processor.

(and don't talk **** like "the software is faster and it doesn't need that hardware", because we're not discussing that here - it's solely about hardware).

HTC quickly fixed that and it only affected devices of the first batch. Manufacturing faults happen from time to time (see also Apple's 27" iMac). That's not an issue of cheap materials, things like this inevitably happen sometimes and no company is an exception there.

HTC also exchanged the faulty HDs. What did Apple do about the hairline cracks? Nothing. They even used the same cheap materials again for the 3GS, which, of course, is now plagued by the same issues.

Instead of fixing the issue and using higher quality materials, they simply rely on their reality distortion field to produce people like amb9800.
[Windows Phone 7 General] C:Sharp!:
That doesn't even deserve to be called "build quality". It's cheap. Notice also all the scratches on the power button - they're not due to heavy usage, they're due to very cheap materials and the Apple logo and chrome frame are affected as well.

Now, manufacturing faults can happen. But this is not a manufacturing fault, this is Apple using cheap materials and refusing to fix the issue.

Many iPhones look like that already after a few days/weeks of using them, despite that the issues were discovered already on the previous generations of iPhones. And it doesn't matter how carefully you treat them, the issue there is really bad build "quality".

By contrast, even with not-so-careful treatment, HD2s look like new even after months.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Hehe. Like I said elsewhere, I have yet to find an iPhone fan who'll admit that (my wife admits it as an iPhone user, she loves her phone but she's certainly not a fan, she just doesn't get attached to gadgets - oh these women).
[Windows Phone 7 General] WhyBe:
I don't think it's so much the "Appstore" as it is a SINGLE place to download apps directly to the phone. Microsoft has this in place already. It just needs to have enough apps to start out. It doesn't need 100,000, just a few dozen or a hundred good apps to start with. The new breed of "app enterpreneur" will fill that gap in a short period of time. And of course MS is partnering with developers to have some stuff ready at launch.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
What bug have you enountered? I haven't myself and I love iTunes.

The only performance issue is to do backup and restore. For normal sync, it is fast. For music sync it is extremely fast, even for the initial sync. Subsequent sync after each new CD rip (typically less than 20 songs) takes almost no time. This is from PC to iPhone. I don't keep my music on server so I don't know what speed problem it has in that environment. According to vangrieg it is slow. If syncing to server is slow, I would either install iTune on the server itself or copy the music to a local PC.

Which iPhone did you use? 2G, 3G, or 3GS? Which memory capacity iPhone did you have?
[Windows Phone 7 General] amb9800:
"Real metal"? The only case part in the HD2 made of metal is the battery cover, which is purely for cosmetic reasons. The entire rest of the case is plastic. Contrast that to the iPhone 2G, for example, which is fully aluminum. You're simply perceiving glossy plastic as somehow being cheaper than matte finish plastic. Compare the plastic on the iPhone 3G/3GS to that on, say, a Touch Pro 2, and there's no comparison. The TP2's plastic dents, gets gouges, deep scratches, etc. much more easily than the iPhone.

Sure, the Nexus One probably has a better sensor. But the 3GS has been on the market since June 2009, so it'd be pretty bad if that weren't the case. The fact that the 3GS is still competitive at the end of its product cycle, a generation after it was introduced, is impressive. Let's see what Apple has in store in June.

First, you're conveniently omitting other specs. How about the GPU-- the iPhone's PowerVR SGX535 GPU is 30-40% faster than the HD2's Imageon Z430 on paper, and in actual performance it's more than that. Not that it matters, though-- there are barely any apps on WM that can even make use of the HD2's GPU (whereas there are tons on the iPhone).

Second, a single app on WM is not going to consume 500 MB of RAM, so the only purpose of having a lot of RAM is to aid in multitasking, which the HD2 (at least the T-Mo version I have here) can't do as smoothly as a 3GS. So please elaborate for me what the purpose of this extra RAM is?

Also, tell that specs story to my HD2, which is currently stuttering while trying to play a ~1.2 Mbps 480p h.264 video (the Transformers movie that came loaded on the phone). When even basic SD videos can't play smoothly, am I supposed to be comforted by the fact that there's a nice processor underneath this lagging mess?

Actually, if you read the last few pages of this thread, you'll see both software and hardware being discussed, including in your own posts.
[Windows Phone 7 General] amb9800:
Pink is something separate (the PMX group- ex-Danger + new people), though yeah, there were apparently some internal issues between PMX and the other phone teams. What ended up being Windows Phone 7 only started in fall 2008 when MS realized that WM7 was getting nowhere-- at that point, they brought in lots of people from around MS to form a new team (which made WP7), and the WM7 team (or part of it) was assigned to porting their ideas for WM7 to WM6.x in order to create 6.5.x. More info here:

http://www.techautos.com/2010/03/26...sleeping-giant-awakes-reboots-windows-mobile/
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
What really matters in built quality?

I know each of us have different idea of what really matters to them. Scratch resistance, hairline crack resistance, damp resistance, water resistance, absence of squeak and noise, cover discoloration, speed of battery charging, degree of optimization to ensure every aspect of performance is smooth, degree of software testing to ensure that everyting works exactly the way people expect without trying to tweak from very bad to merely okay, ....

I do have a small hairline crack on my iPhone. Very very fine, and difficult to notice, but when I look hard enough, I can see it there. However it had never bothered me. I don't even see it as I always use a silicon case. I could get it exchanged but I did'nt want to get a new bootrom which is unjailbreakable up to now (however, it was announced toady by Geohot that he has just found a way to perform UNtethered jailbreak on ALL iphone/ipod for all bootroms, and likely also for iPad, so I might go and get my free replacment once his tool is released).

The single most important item on the phone where quality really really matters, is the place where users and the phone meet - the touch screen. By this, I do not mean the screen size or the resolution, although I also treasure those very much. Much much more important is the smoothness, accuracy, and reliability of the touchscreen technology. In this extremely important aspect of any multitouch screen, iPhone is in my mind in a class of its own. Non-Apple manufacturere such as HTC and Motorolla produce capacitive touch screens which are still seriously flawed. This statement would sure to stir up some resentment among some of you. However, I ask you to calmly and objectively watch read the findings on this test. You will see that iPhone has a very clear lead in touchscreen built quality.
[Windows Phone 7 General] eaglesteve:
Happy to see the picture of HP’s Jornada 680 ran on H/PC 2000 in your link. I still have that device with me. I bought two different models of that way back in 1998-1999 or there about. I carried that it in my pocket everywhere I went. This picture brings back fond memory for me.:)
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Not possible to install it on the server (it's a NAS), not possible to copy my music to the PC (it's a notebook with 64GB SSD). iPhone 3GS and previously iPod. It's a complete nightmare. No issues whatsoever indexing music on the same NAS either with WMP or Zune software or anything else for that matter.