yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Lol your carrier is some lazy ass ppl.. I'm not sure if its similar but it look like it did the trick for now. I'm assuming you get full bars outside too? and with you nokia you get full bars 3G inside? Anyway I'm happy that its working out for you now, lets hope it doesn't occur again.

HTC should pay for shipping costs since it has a 1 yr warranty. Tho you might have to a $28 fee if it has any signs of damages or what not. I would call them up just to verify this and your situation. I'm sending mine for repair because the signal degrades by -20dBm when I hold it at the bottom in the middle of my palm. Does yours do that?
[Nexus One General] Paul22000:
Seriously?...

Did you read this thread at all?...
[Nexus One General] raven2000:
Who are you with?
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Yes and Yes. Its apparent I'm not suppose to be losing over 20-30dBm. Come on now, no one else here loose that much from just picking it up! Grow some sense. As I said before, a person over Google forum had send his for repair and his signal no longer degrades by holding the phone. So it is a antenna issue! Also if you will, people here are not losing as much, its either between 5-10dBm. Just like the Google customer care agents that I had tested their phones.

I'm not saying its just me, but apparently most people don't loose so much. I'm worried that I will have 3bars signal(-90dBm) in my house on an important call. Then by holding my phone I will lose signal and their goes the important call.
[Nexus One General] bmj1086:
You wont drop a call from losing 3G, your calls have nothing to do with 3G or your data connection at all for that matter. But I do agree with your dropping 20-30dmb. I tested mine and covered it pretty heavily to lose 14dbm and still didn't lose a bar. MyTouch lose 12dbm with the same test.
[Nexus One General] flarbear:
Here is something that bothers me about the signal strength issues we see. I would do a back to back comparison with my G1, but I recently lent it to a friend so he could investigate Android before he buys a new phone.

Covering the antenna with your hand should lose some signal strength. I understand that.

Losing signal strength could cause you to lose your data services if they go below the threshold needed to maintain a decent data rate. No problem.

The thing I wonder about is that when the signal strength on 3G goes down to below -101db, my phone switches to Edge and then has a much stronger signal in the -65db range. Why is the Edge signal so much stronger? I could see the Edge mechanisms maybe working better when the interference is higher, but the Edge actually measures a stronger signal. In other words, I can see why 3G might be more finicky about radio strength, but not why it would have weaker strength in the first place. So, why the difference?

Edge is on a better frequency that penetrates better? Lower frequencies tend to have better penetration capability with extremely low frequencies being used to communicate directly through the earth. For T-Mobile it is the difference between 1700/2100MHz for 3G and 1900MHz for Edge so I don't think that 1900 would have that much better penetration than 2100 (the worst case half of their frequency pair). Note that Apple recently deployed 850MHz 3G support in most major markets, primarily to help with congestion, but it also penetrates buildings better. On the other hand, their 850MHz frequency is half of any of the T-Mobile frequencies and that is a much more significant difference in terms of penetration than between the variety of T-Mobile's frequencies.

Edge is on a closer tower? I would have thought that all towers would be 3G by now and that wouldn't explain why the 3G signal is always the one to get lost - shouldn't the situation sometimes be that the 3G signal was coming from the nearer tower?

Edge radios are stronger? I don't know if 3G and Edge use the same transmitter/receivers or not or if there would be a power difference there. The same point could be made of either the T-Mobile towers or the radios in the phone itself.

Something about the way that the radio waves are used for 3G means that the signal has less penetration capability than a similar frequency (and strength) being used for Edge?

(One of) The specific frequencies used for 3G happens to interact poorly with the human body in terms of shielding in a way that the Edge frequency does not? (i.e. 1900 goes through bodies - or buildings - better than either 1700 or 2100 for reasons other than the rule of thumb "lower frequencies tend to penetrate better").

Finally - maybe the phone is simply reporting the signal strength of the Edge radio differently. I might believe that they would report the number of bars differently if the protocol was less "finicky" about signal strength than 3G, but the status screen also reports a better db-rating which doesn't make sense as that should be a more objective measurement of the amount of signal being received.

Any thoughts or theories?
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Well yes. Keep in mind that 3G came after EDGE was deployed for awhile in the US. Also I believe 3G and EDGE uses two different towers. So if thats true, then right now has it stands, there are more EDGE towers than 3G. So thats why there is greater EDGE signal strength than 3G.

Btw, I loose a similar amount of dBm on EDGE also.

Well until we get together and test the phones then we can't really have similar experiences. I did the same test on a Blackberry and it lost -10dBm to -15dBm on EDGE. So I realize its normal now. I'm putting the repair on hold until some people get their phones back from HTC repair center within the next two weeks.
[Nexus One General] Antiskunk:
The problem DOES lie in the placement of the antennae, and FYI the iPhone has the antennae in the bottom half of the phone too, which is why it has appalling coverage too.

The problem also lies with the carrier. Three UK makes 3G have priority, so my brother (on 3) never loses 3G with his phone; in fact, he either has 3G or he's in a black spot (no signal coverage).

Now, take T-mobile UK, (who I'm with). They both share the same basestations except I always get 2G connectivity.

It also lies with the choice to switch. The phone and service provider decide when your device should switch between bands, say between 2g and 3G. Three UK will prefer to hold on to 3G, whereas T-mo prefers 2G. The band difference for the two is 300Mh/z (1800 2g, 2100 3G), so it can safely be assumed if you have good 2G coverage, you SHOULD also be able to get 3G, this is why Three UK get's 3G more than other providers. The phone also decides when it should switch, and how strongly it should "stick" to a band before switching. There's more to it than this but this just points out it's not all about pumping more power into the antennae (yes I'd love it if that were an option, and it would help a bunch).

Basically... we need to get the network operators to give preference to 3G like Three UK.

There is also speculation into how well different frequencies can be held (AKA, 900Mhz is less stable than 2100MMhz for the N1'a antennae, or visa versa), but I'm sure on the details personally.

Also, The Omnia HD holds onto 3G like no other phone I've seen, you can cover it with both hands completely and not lose 3G.

The N95, after extensive updating :P, was excellent for coverage and my brother's dad uses it over other phones because he gets coverage with it where other phones do not.

Somewhere along the lines manufacturers and designers have stopped improving battery size and antennas, general build quality.
[Nexus One General] Paul22000:
Woah...

I just thought of something...

Maybe the reason the iPhone has so many dropped calls (and why people complain about AT&T so much) is that people are unknowingly covering their antenna and dropping the call?

Or is it really the network? (Dropping calls even when the antenna is not covered.)
[Nexus One General] ram130:
That might just be it. I'm wondering the same now. I did see a video when someone cover the phone and signal goes away. So its a strong theory. We may never know the true reason though.

I agree too. If 3G had more preference with T-Mobile then we would see more towers. Maybe T-Mobile should try using the 2100mhz band too? only time will tell.

I believe HTC used a low quality antenna in the phone. Hmm, hard to say since it gets better signal than most phones. Though it has trouble holding that signal, I guess that's half and half huh.
[Nexus One General] krohnjw:
It's the network - at least in Chicago. The loss of signal due to the antenna being covered may be a contributing factor in some cases, but network congestion and overloaded towers are a larger contributing factor in large cities.
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Only can hope T-mobile hurry and expand then.
[Nexus One General] siEricko:
I think regarding the signal drop when the antenna its covered it's normal on a phone.. If you do read the information booklet they do give instruction not to cover the antenna.. so i dont think its really a big deal since all the phone will experience the same, but google actually might have to put the antenna in different place where is not easy to be covered when making a call..

Just a noob opinion..
[Nexus One General] bmj1086:
Google is not involved in the hardware design. HTC made the phone.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-10387677-265.html

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif.--Google's Andy Rubin, head of the company's Android development, would like to clear something up: Google is not in the phone-making business.

"We're not making hardware," Rubin said. "We're enabling other people to build hardware."

They may have some opinions to give about the visual design of the phone. Such as the hinge on the G1 but they do not specify things such as antenna placement.

The placement of the antenna wasn't a good idea but T-Mobile really needs to add more towers to their network. When you're in areas of very strong signal then you don't have to worry about covering the antenna because you wont drop much. The manual does state not to cover the antenna but if anybody is able to use their phone without placing their hand over the antenna I'd like to know how. I use my phone probably more than anybody I know and I can say that the signal strength doesn't even get to me. If you're not constantly paying attention to it then you wont notice the single bar that it drops [if any] when you're using your phone as normal. Most of the time I don't even drop a bar.

It's hard to call the issue "real" or "fake" because each situation is different. If you live in an area with better signal strength then you probably wont notice it at all [me]. If you live in BFE then I'm sure you're going to be a whiner. The only problem I initially had was that my signal would drop all together. At random times I would lose all signal and have an "x" over my bars for around 15 seconds. After Google released their first update the issue was resolved.

Mainly people argue that their other phone had a stronger signal which has been proven false in many situations. Honestly, who cares? Unless you plan on taking the antenna out of that phone what's the point of sitting here arguing how you had it better before. We don't care.

I'm pretty sure as big as HTC is they wouldn't use a poor quality antenna either. I seriously doubt that it's any different than any other phone they've released on the same bands.
[Nexus One General] Brownbay:
I just tried out the expirement and while I don't have another phone to compare my results against, I too can confirm that if I place my had and cover the bottom half of the phone, I'll drop about 1 to 2 bars depending where I am.

This especially becoems an issue for me as in my "computer room" reception is not that great, and so I average only 2 or 3 bars depending where I am in the room. Before I found this thread, I held the phone as any normal person would and I've dropped a couple of calls.

I don't see how anyone can defend HTC on this. They should have put the radio at the top and then desiged the phone around the radio and not try and fit the radio in where ever they could.
[Nexus One General] uansari1:
If they put the antenna at the top of the phone, then people would be complaining about the increased exposure to radiation. As I've stated numerous times, it's easy to defend HTC because many of us, in markets with good 3G coverage, don't see any drop in 3G or cellular coverage. Ergo, there's no issue. It's only an issue for people in areas with lesser coverage... how can you blame HTC for the ****ty network?
[Nexus One General] Brownbay:
There's radio placement and then there's optimal radio placement. A 10cm height differential is negligble in terms of radiation.

I've still been able to make a call and surf quite fine with only one bar, so it's not the network. If the radio was placed at the top, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Most people are right handed and tend to hold a phone at a point that offers a low center of gravity.

To put it more bluntly, if you can manipulate an object with other factors being equal and cause a reaction, then it's quite clear that the object is the point of contention.
[Nexus One General] JanetPanic:
Balderdash. Who complained about this with the G1? I am sure there were one or two loonies but were there any significant complaints? Besides the antennas are not directional, a couple inches down is not that big a difference.
[Nexus One General] uansari1:
Lol, I was just being rhetorical man... ;) Point being someone would complain no matter what. I still think this is PRIMARILY a network problem, and only secondarily related to the antenna placement.
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Well the G1 didn't have drastic drops in low signal areas thats why
[Nexus One General] bmj1086:
Maybe you should read back when I tested covering the MyTouch and the Nexus One side by side. I proved your theory wrong. The issue was with the G1, MyTouch, Nexus One. I've had all three and tested all three. Place your hand over

ANY

antenna and you lose signal strength. I would call it common sense but it doesn't seem to be very common on this forum. Placing an object over an antenna that receives signal OTA will cause interference.

Start with post 27 and go from there. This "issue" is more of people complaining and whining because they cover an antenna and lose signal than it is an actual issue. If place my router in my basement I lose signal too, wtf is that??? Poor design on Linksys, they don't think about concrete walls.

I use my phone daily and I [like anybody else who holds their phone] have my hand over the antenna. I don't notice the signal dropping the 12dbm because I'm too busy using my phone to cry about the signal strength dropping a bar. There's nothing that can be done other than T-Mobile building more towers [I wouldn't recommend waiting around for this especially since DT is talking about selling T-Mobile anyway]

Now we all understand that the antenna could have been placed on the top of the phone to avoid the 12dmb signal loss but at this point what is complaining about it doing? They're not going to remodel the phone, they're not going to give you a "better antenna" because there is no antenna inferior to blockage.
[Nexus One General] uansari1:
Forget it man... I don't think many people are getting our points. We've already reached the few that were open to the rationality and obvious propriety of the arguments.

Seriously... all people have to do is visit any "real" city and they'll see this so-called issue vanish. That's the only way they'll understand.
[Nexus One General] Paul22000:
YOUR RONG

MAYBE GOOGLe WILL REALEASE A SOFTWARE PACH TO MOVE THE ANTENNA!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32UGD0fV45g
[Nexus One General] uansari1:
Bwahahah... you're one of the few that I was referring to man. :)
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Man I understand it all just pointing out that the g1 doesn't drop so 'drastic' as the N1..no need to gun me down. I understand the logic you put fore and its true no doubt. I even tested it with a blackberry, it just didn't loose as much.

I'm already ignoring the issue, and pass it as normal. I'm like you though, trying to make people understand it. But each time more complaints develop, it varies more. Like this dude I know, he said "I was at my son's school, he had a G1 and had 3G with full bars while my N1 was on EDGE the whole time" ...How do you explain that one though? There are few more reports similar to that one at the Google forums. I do believe that one is software though.

But hey man take it easy, I'm just a relentless learning Jamaican..
[Nexus One General] JanetPanic:
So you did not test the G1 in a manner of how a user would typically hold the phone while using. You have proven nothing.

Your dismissal of others opinions without any attempt at discourse is why I do not bother replying to you in this thread any longer. You clearly do not want to have a reasoned debate. I am not talking about scenarios where the user is intentionally holding their hand over the antenna's location, but in the position of how the phone would be held for use.

No it is not going to be fixed; We agree there. Where we disagree is if it is a problem. I find it to be a problem, but not one that is a deal breaker. I am not complaining, merely acknowledging that it is a design choice that could have been handled better. You seem to simply be in denial that it is a problem at all. In any case you are definitely more insistent and vocal with your opinion than I am with mine. It quite simply is not worth the effort.
[Nexus One General] uansari1:
Um..this is a reply to his post, no? You both know where I stand on this "issue". Blame T-Mobile more than HTC.
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Hey marekli from google forums posted an article that sums up the nexus one failure..

http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=31950

I found this comment most interesting:

"I have to wonder if Google didn't do it this way on purpose, to minimize backlash in case of product failure? If it were MY company, I'd probably choose to do much the same thing - make the best phone on the market, and build buzz by keeping it rare while all the bugs are worked out of the distribution/support machine. Think about it this way: Would you prefer to sell you very first telephone (which is ostensibly the most advanced telephone in the world) to a million novice users who would need technical support ten times a month, or to ten thousand tech junkies who can figure most of this stuff out on their own?

Once all the kinks are worked out, Google can roll out the Nexus Two on a bigger carrier (Verizon) and slam the population with advertising.

The cusomer service angle, however, was poorly thought out. I guess they depended on HTC handling the hardware, and TMobile taking care of software issues. Farming that stuff out is good in theory, but in this case it REALLY didn't work. "
[Nexus One General] Paul22000:
How is that a failure?

Using the article's logic, 10 million people buy a phone and hate it because they can't figure it out and need support.

Or half a million people buy it and absolutely love the crap out of it.

Failure? I think not.

Sounds like standard Google Beta ™

Once all the bugs are worked out, BOOM they destroy the market with a nuclear bomb.
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Except this time they are playing with our cash..

Your points are not going in vain. I agree with you and such, I'm learning from you everyday too :D . On a serious note, the information you provide that let us test this theory our self and such is great. In the long run, we are gonna be the ones trying to convince everyone else(long road that will be). Since starting this thread my opinions and logic changed. I'm now on the fore front trying to help Google understand the mix up information everyone is getting so they can understand the problem and deal with it. The fact they are so silent is what causing more damage to them. But it looks like I got through to them finally. So again your not wasting your time. I feel like I am. But its starting to pay off.

For the EDGE on the N1 and 3G on the G1. I told him to try WCDMA only, at the time he didn't know about it. So I'm just waiting to hear from him on that. Its making him very angry that his signal strength is action so differently than his son. Just like you, I'm tried to explain the situation with the antenna. He is now just wondering about why he is on EDGE and his son 3G. But hey, less talking and more action. Gonna get him to do a vid. btw this is his second swap, the first had frequent touch screen issues.
[Nexus One General] Paul22000:
Except you still have a great phone that wipes the floor with every other device on the market.

If you were sold something that couldn't even make calls (like an iPhone, ZING), then ok, you'd have a point.
[Nexus One General] ram130:
the iphone could make calls man, come on now, play nice. :D I'm happy with my n1, just want 2 of my 3 issues dealt with ya know.
[Nexus One General] fosormic:
My conclussion: screwed on the short and medium term.

I guess we will have to live with it (trust me, not happy). The phone is so damn thin that the only place for the antenna to be is exactly where it is; besides, they will want it to be near the radio and the only space for the radio is down there.

The N1 possibly even has a better reception, but it is very sensitive (see note about logarithmic scale below) to any interference, particularly by holding it maybe without even touching the rear but just having the hand close when talking.

In my case it is very annoying b/c not only the signal drops when I am reading, but the way I hold it to read makes my hand really cover and touch the back and then it also gets very warm and eats the batt, which means it is transmitting at a higher power.

Also, like someone else said, the scale is logaritmic I believe base 2, which means that one simple digit of decrease in the signal indicator means the signal is already half of what it was, so the signal is quite weaker *every single digit* your dbm counter changes, highly increasing the chances of the issue to happen. If it is not base 2, then substitute 2 in the formula above for the proper number...

I dont think they (HTC) had a better place to put it. Period. Now, lets see how the N1s for Sprint and verizon behave (different transmission methods and bands); I'd guess the ones for AT&T will be similar although AT&T has stronger signals everywhere (not faster, just stronger) so it will possibly be less of an issue with AT&T (besides, AT&T usually works on a much lower frequency *850 vs 1700* and the lower the more robust the signal is). My theory.

So, in my case, I'll keep cursing whenever the issue including the heat reappears, and hold my pants tight until TMO improves their signal where I am (my average is -80).

End note: Please do not flame me if some facts like the math and bands are incorrect. If they are, still the assumptions hold and that is the purpose of my reply anyways. Pls do correct what you believe should be.
[Nexus One General] uansari1:
All good points... I had once thought out loud that one of the disadvantages that T-mobile faces is that they are running at a higher frequency. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I remember reading that higher frequency waves degrade more when they encounter objects... which would explain why a lot of us have crappy or no signal inside buildings, whereas many people on the other three carriers don't have this issue. My thoughts at that time were that T-mobile should have complained to the FCC that because they were stuck with these frequencies, there was an uneven playing field, and to overcome the problem, the FCC (i.e. the gov't) should make some sort of compensation to facilitate T-mo adding more towers, as they are needed just to match AT&T, for example. It wouldn't be unfair, because it's only evening the playing field, not giving anyone an unfair advantage.

Of course, AT&T would probably argue that T-mobile got a price break on the rights to the higher frequencies, so in a way they've been compensated... but I doubt any discount on those rights is enough to completely even the field.
[Nexus One General] ram130:
Yep, totally agree.