yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
You think and I hope... but nevertheless, it's not wrong to voice those concerns. After all, they're over two years late (behind the iPhone App Store).

I really hope that they don't copy Apple too much... those reports about the lack of multitasking, for example, are very worrying... Apple can upset developers now with stuff like that, they already have their 140.000 applications. Microsoft can't...

Here's some other stories, written by a guy from Microsoft. Interesting stuff: http://www.globalnerdy.com/tag/windows-phone/
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
I'd be very curious to hear this as well. I mean if an app is crashing, not working, or dumb, then you just uninstall it right? the iphone store with their I don't know how many apps... do you think they're all great! This apple app thing is more like "every can do an app so let's do it". There's not much quality IMO.... oh! wait! I forgot the fart apps.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
If 90% of the apps in the App Store are rubbish, and only 10% are quality, that means already 14.000 quality applications.

That means one out of two applications for Windows Mobile (or Android) would have to be a quality application, to beat the App Store. No way!

And if you compare the "quality" applications on Windows Mobile vs. those on the iPhone, the iPhone applications almost always win.

For example:

- Fahrplan vs. Departure (I'm a big fan of Departure, but Fahrplan on the iPhone beats it any time)

- Bing on Windows Mobile vs. Bing on the iPhone (yes, even Microsoft's own applications are better on the iPhone!)

- ... almost any other application.

Seriously, if you compare any Windows Mobile application to its iPhone counterpart, the iPhone applications almost always wins - no matter how many "rubbish" applications there are, in addition to the good ones.

Microsoft has some opportunities to enable developers to make even better applications - like multitasking, like better development tools + native development - but it seems like they're throwing lots of those away...
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Except, Apple does not have XBox platform ... If Microsoft can get this right, the XBox integration, it could be big ... Imagining MMORPG game which you can play via XBox, PC or WP7. Use XBox / PC at home ... and use WP7 on the go :)

Which cannot be copied by Apple nor Google, because simply they dont have it (gaming platform).

Recently I read SonyEricsson would bring PSN to mobile phone, with what? Most likely not WP7 ... iPhone? Android? Then it will become interesting competition.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
How many people use an XBox? That's a small feature. Nothing compared to the impact of, for example, multitasking capabilities (iPhone and WP7 without it vs. Symbian and Android that have it) or satellite navigation (how long will it take Navigon, ALK etc. to re-write their apps in .Net, and will they even try?).
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
About 40 million... There's also a huge industry behind it, and the likes of EA and Ubisoft are an important part of the "developers" community, with big bucks and all. I'd say their presence is a crucial element of iphone success.

Well, I'd certainly disagree here. Games are way more important for the platform's success than multitasking implementation, IMO.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
The iPhone has games without XBox. Lots of them.

40 million... lol, that means there are already more iPhone OS users than XBox users ;)

Sorry, there are much more important things than XBox.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
On January 6th, 2009 Microsoft announced 17 million members.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_xbox_live_users_are_there

I cannot find more recent numbers ... so that was a year ago.

I dont know the total number of current mobile platform users, but look the "sales" of 2009:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/23/gartner-apple-android-and-rim-winners-in-2009-smartphone-os-g/

Symbian = 80 millions

RIM BB = 34 millions

iPhone = 25 millions

WinMo = 15 millions

Android = 7 millions

More or less ...

Do you think 17 millions potential userbase / target market is not significant enough? Be real ...

And the fact that it cannot be copied by other platform make it even better!

Joe sixpack does not care if the app is written in C++/C#/Silverlight/.NET/Blah. He cares only how is the app experience. If it is good experience and useful then it is good, no matter of what.

You cannot just say without fully multitasking capability it will fail. Or are you saying that iPhone is fail because of that?

Look, you like to play with number. How many Windows Mobile power users compared to regular users ala joe six pack? Do you have any idea?

Here I help you, just rough estimation:

All XDA-dev forum members = Windows Mobile power users:

Members: 2,165,228, Active Members: 265,238

How big is that compared to the total number of Windows mobile users?

Is it wrong now if Microsoft put all efforts and focus towards just regular users target market? Assuming WP7 will miss all those multitasking, C++ which is still not yet true!
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
So you think all the XBox users will suddenly buy Windows Phones? ROFL.

And look at your numbers. Soon after the iPad is out, there will likely be more iPhone OS gamers than XBox gamers. Which puts Microsoft into the "playing catch-up" position again...

...which means they will need developers. Again. And an NDK, no restrictions on the distribution channels, multitasking etc. would help them get developers.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
iPhone total sales until 2009 Q1 = 17 millions

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Total_iPhone_sales.png

iPhone total sales on 2009 = 24 millions

Total sales to date (roughly) = 17 + 24 = 41 millions

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Total_iPhone_sales.png

:D
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
Of course not, but do you think that there will be no iPhone / Android users jump ship to WP7? Think that.

Because there must be iPhone users that own XBox :) Or you think NOT?

See my number 17 millions on January 2009 and other poster wrote 40 millions. I assume this 40 millions is recent number. Got it?
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
You forgot iPod Touch users. And soon: iPad users.

Together, those are a LOT more than 40 million, and all of them can play iPhone games.

And how will he get that app experience? You guessed it: Through developers.

And how can Microsoft attract developers: Better conditions than what Apple offers.

And what are better conditions than what Apple offers?

- no restrictions of distribution channels (and no censorship)

- multitasking

- native development in addition to .Net

Joe sixpack cares about finding replacements for any of his iPhone applications, when he switches to WP7. Look at how long it took Navigon and TomTom to come up with iPhone applications, even after Apple allowed them to release those! It will take them even longer for WP7, with the restrictions Microsoft puts into place... and that's just one example.

But that's what Joe sixpack really cares about.

Not one single iPhone/Android user will jump ship, as long as WP7 doesn't offer him replacements for the apps he uses on his phone. So, how can Microsoft make iPhone/Android users switch? Not on their own. Again, it will take developers to do the job.
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
Well, there are more phones than consoles, true, but consoles are much more lucrative, so mobile is still a side business for these guys. Anyway, you have the XBox which is a very closed platform, no multitasking, tons of restrictions, XNA and that stuff. And still all the developer support they need. So if there's money there will be developers.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
From what you wrote here again and again, it looks like you think that there will be no developers writing app for WP7.

There will be no developers supporting WP7.

Why is that?

Only because of lack of multitasking and native API?

You think.

In this tight of economy, people (developers) will most likely to pursue new opportunity. New market, fresh market!

You will be the first to write fart application for God sake :)

New and fresh opportunity will translate to more potential to make money.

Or you think that all developers are dumb and less creative because the only way they can code is using multitasking and native API? Come on! How many type of app need multitasking and native API?

You always like to compare with iPhone apps ... now, how many of them has multitasking? 0 ....

Oh right, now you will bring your argument "Yeah, it is too late for Windows Mobile developers to catch iPhone". Haha!
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I fail to see a compelling story for developers without native APIs either. Multitasking and lack of censorship? Wouldn't call those key adoption prerequisites as far as developers go.

My wife switched to iPhone from WM, and will easily switch back as soon as:

- devices look good enough;

- she can have a couple of stupid time-killer games (very cheap casual stuff)

- her new device will have a decent browser and a bookreader.

Here's one for you. I fully agree that apps are essential but you don't need 100 000 of them to get users.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
That is probably you :)

But there are quite a lot of people who like to TRY SOMETHING NEW :)

And people who compromise the missing apps :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
I'm simply concerned. And there's lots of reasons to be concerned, given that Microsoft seems to copy Apple and its restrictive policies.

And as you can see, not even Microsoft employees are as optimistic as you are...

Exactly. Microsoft needs advantages, like multitasking, things that Apple doesn't offer.

If they're going the exact same route as Apple with their restrictions, there's no way the will ever catch up. No way.

You can't catch up simply by imitating.

You need a few good ones. Those that take the most time to create. Those that rely on native APIs. Those that possibly rely on multitasking.

Notice something here? Microsoft neither has time, nor native APIs and maybe not even multitasking.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
ROFL... spend a thousand dollars just to try something new that you can be sure won't satisfy you because you know it lacks all the applications you need?

Come on... either you're a hardcore fanboy, or just incredibly optimistic to a point where you can't think clearly anymore...
[Windows Phone 7 General] vangrieg:
I agree here.

But not quite here. :) They have all the time in the world, I think. It took them ten years to succeed with XBox but they're giving Sony a tough run for their money now (and when MS entered the market Sony was a standard-setter trendy thing, like Apple is now). The market is far from being established. And I also think they have native APIs, the question is whether they'll share them and, if yes, with whom exactly and on what principles.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Please, point me to anything they've announced where they copied apple. Just look at the UI... it's different than anything on the market. What makes you so sure they're just going to copy Apple for their development strategy? We know they have a very different approach to much of that since they're encouraging devs to hook into the built-in UI through the 'hubs'. There will be much more to learn...

Apple doesn't allow any 'native' APIs and is extremely restrictive... do you mean to tell me that there's no good apps? Yes, I hope MS has a much more open policy than Apple but even if they don't, it's not the end of the world. Again, we don't know what they're going to do with their APIs or multitasking so cool your jets for a bit.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
I say that they must be BETTER than Apple. They won't win anything by simply copying Apple.

Multitasking, native development, no censorship... those are the things where they CAN be better than Apple.

If you look at their statements... there's nothing that hints at Multitasking, native development, no censorship etc. - NOTHING. But everything we've heard so far hints at the exact opposite to be the case: No multitasking, no native development, no side-loading. Not only the rumors, that were 100% accurate so far, even their own, official, statements hint at this.

There's much reason to be concerned.
[Windows Phone 7 General] :
jfc, can you guys take the iphone/android/winmo back and forth ranting to msn maybe?? give each other hotmail's and enjoy your selfs, 20 of 10 thread's in wp7 forum section, is about you guys discussing the same thing over and over and over again.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
So what? Nobody says you must read this thread.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
Those rumors have been 100% accurate until now.

You can say: "Sure, but we haven't heard official confirmation on some of it, like the multitasking bit".

But since they've been THAT accurate until now, there's no reason to believe that the rest of it would not be true as well. Plus all their official statements pretty much confirm the rest.

It's time to accept that WP7 is nothing but an exact copy of iPhone OS plus a better UI plus XBox. You'd have to be incredibly optimistic, or a die-hard fanboy, to think that they will come up with some magic (aka multitasking, native development, app side-loading...) at MIX.

Maybe the "copy iPhone" strategy will work for them - maybe not. But it's time to stop denying that they're going that route. They clearly are.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
It is sorta eerie how spot on those have been so far. (for everyone else here's the link)

One thing that doesn't make sense to me though is "WP7 will have isolated storage which is accessible using LINQ". That makes sense for stuff like XML files, etc but not so much for any other type of data storage (read: binary/MP3/etc). And I'd like to see what exactly this "hosted push notifications" environment entails but I don't like the sound of it. If MS goes too 'Apple' I'm sure they'll catch a ton of crap for it and change it, hopefully sooner than later.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
I might still use it, since my main complaint about the iPhone is the crappy hardware, which will not be a problem with WP7 devices.

And I use all of Microsoft's services, that are integrated into WP7 (except for XBox) and don't like Google's services much.

But I also don't like losing access to the file system and registry, losing multitasking, losing all the good applications I had for WM6 etc.

(especially losing all the applications makes it a lot easier to switch to Android)

I think they shouldn't make the same mistakes as Apple. Apple's failures, especially with the App Store, would give them a good opportunity to beat them.

Just because Apple is successful doesn't mean they're doing everything right - but apparently Microsoft thinks so. :(
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Time will tell but I'd be lieing if I didn't say I'm concerned. It will be interesting to see the crowd's reaction at MIX when they tell everyone there's no multitasking. Charlie just might get booed off the stage heh.
[Windows Phone 7 General] freyberry:
Charlie Kindel... I must say his blog post today made me only more concerned, instead of optimistic: http://bit.ly/d9l2K9

I WANT to use a WP7 phone... I absolutely love the interface and the integration with MSFT's services... but there were some things I absolutely hated about the iPhone when I used one for some months...
[Windows Phone 7 General] mazzarin:
But I'm not following. We -know- it's multitasking capable. Not only because of the kernel itself, but because we saw on one of the "hands-on" vids that the Zune hub was playing music while he was browsing the phone.

Now I know the point you're all making is for 3rd party app multitasking, but even if MS restricts it, we'll just "jailbreak" like we SuperCID/HSPL now.
[Windows Phone 7 General] RustyGrom:
Yea but the problem is the ecosystem at large, particularly for devs. Let's say you're writing an IM app... instead of being able to just have your app run in the background you've gotta use notifications to wake it up. Will it at least resume state? We'll see. Then there's apps like file downloaders. What about custom media players? I know they've shown off pandora and specifically mentioned Last.fm as well. How are those going to be able to run in the background? or are they? Lots of issues here. I prefer them to go to a sorta "gui+service" model. Mayb they will... nothing's been announced but we shall see.

I just hope they don't think they know better than us and therefore only pick and choose a limited set of APIs which is what Charlie's blog post leads me to believe.
[Windows Phone 7 General] 12345sslhd:
What if Zune and Windows Phone become a failure....
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
*sigh* I cannot believe you cannot imagine that, trying something new.

I only presenting possibility and being optimistic and realistic.

Not overly concerned and spreading FUD for something that might not happen.

Even if it does happen, it still does not matter.

You like to play with number, I gave you number. WinMo power userbase does not significant in numbers compared to regular users.

You think that no developers will write WP7 app just because there is no multitask or native API as if that the only thing they know how to code an app. WinMo developers are NOT DUMB, there are plenty of opportunities for new fresh market. If not you, somebody else will code and start making money.

And you think Microsoft will not provide tools for developer, and you praised Android NDK as if you never worked with Microsoft VisualStudio.

Yeah, right :D

You seem worry much and short-sighted ... thinking only one way and your way.
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
It's very clear that Apple has kicked MS's butt up and down the handset highway with the IPhone. A lot of that is Apple simply wears the white hat and gets a lot of love. People complained about phones being too big until Apple made a phone bigger than the Universal.

Truth is the Iphone is easy to use. Smart phones for dumb people since there are many more dumb people in the world than smart people. They sell a lot of phones with their locked down system that doesn't multi task 3rd party applications, has no access to the registry system and has tons of crappy applications made for it. That's just what people wanted.

Frey I learned something in the automobile industry when I started 15 years ago. When it comes to selling products in the world take common sense and throw it out the window. People say they don't want stuff all the time and buy the same exact stuff they say they don't want over and over and over. People say they hate Windows but buy PC's at an alarming high rate. People say they hate not having control over their lives but refuse to work as entrepreneurs and buy IPhones which contain extremely controlled software and hardware. Truth is, people want very limited control and just want to use technology and not know technology.

MS has had the numbers pushed into it's face so it's going to do what Apple did and take what others have created, add some new features, call it a breakthrough and get it's market share back. They don't care if people say they love it or not. They care if people buy it or not.

I hope we get the best of both worlds but I don't completely expect it. I also don't think the developers will balk. That's just a bunch of bs. These guys are gonna see an easy way to develop product and get paid and do as master says because incoming currency is the key to keeping the doors open. MS has streamlined it's process, will make the developing cycle easy and show people how to get paid. They no longer will be forcing people to use their products so they have to play by the rules everyone else has. They are all there yelling "Show Me The Money!" and that's what they plan on doing.
[Windows Phone 7 General] coachu:
Maby it is wm7 series for smartphone. It looks like not touch screen supporting. Remember that microsoft make the wm6.5 for smartphone too so who knows
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
apropos smartphone, isn't the development on there already halted long time ago. I see no significant changes they did to 6.5 which were not already here before. But then, for me personally these ugly devices without a touch screen, way to slow cpu and way too small display resolutions have always been a big pain in the a$$..... At least I hope they're really gone for good now with WP7.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
An interesting thing to come out of that is this bit:

One thing that comes through pretty loud and clear from that is that they have virtually abandoned the corporate/enterprise market this time round; applications written by a company's IT department to run on that company's official business phones are the lowest possible priority. They really do seem to have completely flipped their strategy, here - abandoning WM6's core market altogether in favour of an iPhone-like consumer-oriented strategy. I suppose you can't blame them when you look at their current marketshare.
[Windows Phone 7 General] gogol:
From the article itself:

It may be pedantic, but it’s important to call out that the way you read a prioritized list like this is top down. Priority 1 is higher priority than priority 3, but that does not mean priority 3 isn’t important. It’s also worth calling out that prioritization is temporal. Over time (e.g. for subsequent releases) it is perfectly fine to

change priorities

.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Shasarak:
I said "this time round". :)
[Windows Phone 7 General] addicus:
My little note to Charlie Kindel

Here's what I sent him after reading his blog.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ---UFO---:
Please, could you someone post Windows Mobile 7 (Photon) SYS and XIP?

Many of os would like to play with it.

Thanks
[Windows Phone 7 General] yerand:
I dont think photon is dead, microsoft just stated that they will keep windows mobile 6.5 around as wp7s starter, and since they'll have to eventually update their starter version, i think they'll bring back photon when its ready... at least i hope so.
[Windows Phone 7 General] ramdroid77:
they have stopped development on it like 18 months ago. and they already did 6.5 and 6.5.x after that time, so I really doubt they'd suddenly switch BACK to photon.
[Windows Phone 7 General] Rim1Flex:
I laugh at the title of this thread. What could have been Windows Mobile 7 are alot of things. There were/are tons of concepts.
[Windows Phone 7 General] :
If they didn't start from scratch, 7 will not stand a chance. OS built on bad foundations is bad.

The first leaked screenshots (before the Zune-like interface was released) showed what was essentially a spiced up Windows Mobile 6. Where's the issue there? That it is still a Windows Mobile 6.

They did what I kind of predicted - used the successful Zune HD interface, made it more like a phone OS. And as the Zune HD's interface put the iPod Touch's interface to shame, WP7 is looking to blow away the iPhone (in every dimension except for Apple's brainwash advantage).

Honestly, I hope Microsoft is slightly tighter in general. The openness of the current Windows Mobile is the reason why it is not competent.
[Windows Phone 7 General] paul_71:
That is true.. What I meant (a bit misleading statement, I admit) was that you do not really need the low level (PInvoke level) APIs, if there are appropriate CLR wrappers. If there is no access to platform functionality at all (as on IPhone) than the whole thing does not make sense. The statement was meant as an objection the previous contributor, who stated something like "...nobody writes serious application in C#.." (sorry for inexact citation)
[Windows Phone 7 General] sprinttouch666:
hey, we have a long way until the release of WP7S so I'm wondering if any developers are working on finishing or polishing Photon. I have seen it on the htc universal but that's it and it wasn't a public rom. please let me know if any developers or chefs have the rom dump or plan on releasing it :D
[Windows Phone 7 General] iridium21:
It could be fun to play with it, but it just looks like warmed-up crap to me...