yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] j2inet:
In speaking of the desktop impementations to date the currently available versions of Silverlight have been sandboxed and based on a different CLR implementation than the rest of the .Net framework. So it was possible to have the Silverlight plugin installed without the .Net framework. Silverlight 4 (yet to be released in final form) will be the first version that allows applications to run out of the sandbox and interact with native elements. I know Silverlight 4 can interact with other COM elements, but I've not seen whether or not unsafe operations are supported.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] frazell:
Although I can see the anger for native developers regarding this change and I'm not sure how much I support it either being a managed code developer...

But there is one thing I have to sit up and get interested in. The rumor of Microsoft making .NET a primary target platform on WP7S means they will probably overhaul .NET CF development to be a lot closer to native. It would be nice to not have to deal with the really crappy limitations of the .NET CF on WM.

If they do bring .NET up enough to be a real first class citizen it won't be a major problem. .NET could help cut time to market and enable us to make apps faster which seem to be a big deal now.

But either way I'm glad Microsoft is looking my way for once.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] Chainfire:
Oh my god it is mamaich! Big thanks for things you posted in the past :)

The translation is not incorrect. I'm the one who originally translated it - they did however change the wording of the article on Tweakers.net a number of hours after the translation (note how the Tweakers.net article says it's been updated)

* RAGE! *

Seriously considering closing up shop.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] joozzt:
+inf

pow(10.0,RAGE)
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] rohitharsh:
MS is moving on

Guys MS is not going to win this battle by looking after a few thousand fans from the WM6 era. They are moving on. In the end if people buy the phone developers will follow. I feel sorry for the old school here but that is the hard fact.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] leeuwtjevanjuda:
Qft, To get a decent market share they cant go further the old way. They need to make some drastic changes to play a role in the consumer market.

I too dont' like every change as tweaker (I like the new Ui though), but It's Necesarry for Microsoft to keep up.

And after all, WM6 will still be available

All I heard before were all the people who didn't like WM: Iphone and Android were much more user friendly. those people are the biggest part of the market. And I think after all that WP7 is much more user friendly than WM6, and that it will appeal much more to the average bussiness and normal consumer.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] joozzt:
@rohitharsh

Actually, they'll be loosing some high profile clients with 5,000+ employees we write software for :-)
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] noSuchThingAs2:
Desktop apps written in WPF (or more likely, web apps written in Silverlight) can absolutely be recompiled for Windows Phone 7. For someone like me who's been writing native code for a decade and working with WPF for 3 years that's a huge win. In fact, you should be able to code this stuff in C++ too if that's your language. I guess if I had a huge amount of unmanaged code that I wanted to run on this platform I could see this being disappointing - but I'd be far more disappointed if I couldn't construct the UI in Xaml! Epic win.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] vijay555:
@mamaich - WOW!

@all: I have to say, if WinAPI drops away, then what's really left to keep us coding for "Windows" phones over iphones with their bigger market share - if you're going to have to unlearn and/or learn new stuff, then I think a good portion of coders will just follow the cash - like has been said before, Marketplace vendors are hardly swimming in cash right now, while a pair of boobs will net you a good few $x0,000 on appstore.

Hopefully WinPhone 7 will be a good effort, but if they lock it down, what will become of xda developers. I don't want to sit here licking myself and my phone, fanboying over the other platforms. I want to take my phone apart, hardware and software, and do what I want with it - frankly, that's pretty much the only thing that's kept the platform alive as long as it has.

If the platform becomes a closed box, and everyone migrates to Marketplace, much of the innovation on this forum won't have anywhere to go but to the "open" platforms - jailbroken iphones, Android, and even Palm has a native plugin kit now.

I've really got to ask myself - what's the point of developing any "big" application now, if the entire platform will be obsolete by the end of the year?

As invigorating, necessary and long overdue WinPhone 7 is, there is a sinister dark cloud behind for the hackers... let's hope HTC is as accommodating with its rom flashes on the new phones as they have been in the past so at least we can cook up something worthy of the XDA Devs!

V
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] noSuchThingAs2:
Same here, it's been forever since I've written unmanaged code ;)

Also I don't think they'd go the P/Invoke route - the use of COM interop in SL 4 seems like a more likely candidate for calling platform specific stuff.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] Chainfire:
The last time I wrote something in .NET for mobile is when I originally wrote KaiserTweak two years ago. I ended up redoing that completely in native code because .NET was ass slow (something still true for most .NET apps IMHO).

Everything I got is native. I don't mind completely redoing the UI for WM7, not at all, but remaking all the code in .Net? No longer having access to all the APIs you want? Restrictiveness in what you can do?

Royally screwed over. What's the added value versus the other platforms now for developers? Nothing!
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] joozzt:
guys&girls , the partners (read manufacturers) are being allowed access to a limited set of native API. Besides the fact that it's limited, app developers will then surely never get access in any way to any native API.

Why you need access ?

Simple, because any 1 company does not have the infinite wisdom, or financial interest, to develop everything perfectly/fully. Innovation thrives on freedom, innovation in the high level app's has been high the last few years. but you need innovation in the low level stuff also sometimes to enable better high level stuff.

Would Skype have been invented on Windows phone 7 series ?

I think MS is imposing an exaggerated limited model on developers here, which should be entirely unnecessary. They made a mess of things together with it's manufacturers , now it's time to straighten things out between them. Not the developers.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] freaksey:
it really depends on WHAT you are coding..

I mean, no one needs a Alarm or something written in nativ code, but think about something big like HTC Sense or a Media Player. It would be even slower then now and your RAM usage would explode.

I really hope they dont screw up like the iPhone guys and make it as limited as they have.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] thx1200:
Overracting to design guidelines?

I, too, spent the better part of yesterday freaking out as I have several large projects in the work for the WM6/6.5 and I wanted to go to WM7. It's managed, but it's VB.Net, which is the red-headed stepchild of .Net when it comes to XNA (ie, not officially supported). So I really didn't know where I stood.

However, now I'm starting to think I was overreacting. I just read this thread and see a lot of speculation based on some leaked design docs. But MS always take the most restrictive approach in their design docs, even on Big Windows. Yet, Big Windows still allows an enormous amount of customization at the developer level.

I think the most important things to take away from this is that old apps, if not binary compatible (which they still might be), will at least be recompile compatible. It's possible the old GDI controls may even still exist (or be wrapped), but MS wouldn't want to show that off when they are heavily promoting the new slick-as-hell WPF/Silverlight style UI.

Microsoft isn't going to admit it when they are pushing Marketplace, but there has to be a way to execute arbitrary apps and distribute them without Marketplace. Why do I know this for a fact? Because you have to actually develop the app, and it won't be code-signed or distributed over marketplace at that time. And you can't just rely on the emulators 100% either. There will be a mechanism for developers to run their apps, while developing (and, therefore, after they are done), on the phone. I fully expect warning messages (like that can be enabled for older WM) that the OEM won't be allowed by contract to turn off. But my gut tells me it will be simple for the brilliant minds at XDA to figure out.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] freyberry:
Guys, apart from the native vs. .Net discussion... could you try to clarify the multitasking question?

Will third party applications, like a GPS (tracking, turn-by-turn...) app or an FTP client, be allowed to do their important tasks in the background? Or will they be suspended?

mamaich, any word on this in that documentation?
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] ramdroid77:
similar situation here. I'm currently working on a commercial product. Few months ago I got in the situation to rework the whole UI. I looked at some .NET libraries but in the end decided to write my own UI framework in native C. I'm almost finished now, though these new WP7 rumours keep me getting more and more frustrated. I wouldn't mind to once again adapt the UI to new WP7 requirements but if Win32 API/kernel access is prophibited then this product is obsolete by definition!!! I hope this all is not true. Developing for mobile is a lot more fascinating than traditional Windows desktop programming (which I did for the last 10 years) and it's really something special for me.... I mean when I'm at home after a long day at work I don't go to bed. Instead I build a new ROM or develop on my own tools/apps. I just hope I can get this keep going! I'd really miss it. well but now enough of this sentimentality! Let's just hope it's not gonna be THAT bad!
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] AuriRahimzadeh:
This will be a great conversation to further at MIX :)

Who's going? I'm staying at Excalibur... let's get beer and drink (or at least converse) until we all agree on something. DM me at AuriGroup or Auri on Twitter.

Best,

-Auri
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] freyberry:
MIX, MIX, MIX... **** MIX. Seriously.

We've been waiting for years now, only to be told to wait even longer "until MIX".

They could just tell us the important things now. I don't give a peep about a fancy UI. I want to know whether my applications will be able to run in the background, whether I will have access to the file system etc.

If they can't answer those questions before MIX, I'll already have gone Android then. Because, you know, Droid DOES (multitask etc.).
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] RustyGrom:
I've dabbled in dev for both Xbox 360 and Zune with XNA. A few things...

You don't get the full .net framework. It's a good bit of the compact framework but not the whole thing. They've also added specific extra stuff that you'd need/want on that device. For example they have controller classes from reading controller inputs and stuff to control the playback of audio on the Zune. The XNA docs have all the additions/deletions.

You don't get full hard disk access. I tried all sorts of methods to read/write to random locations on the Xbox 360 hard drive but you only get access to shared storage and your application's folder.

Xbox 360 requires a "creators club" membership to deploy apps to your console, Zune does not. What people in the Zune community have done is write software and then just distribute them to other people so they can "side load" them. This requires each person that wants to install non-approved apps/games to download install the developer tools (Visual Studio Express and XNA GSE, both free). You can distribute your apps in binary form or in source form.

I really hope they back off of only allowing "Partners" to use native code. I don't dev in it but I know many of you do and know the benefits of it. It would be a shame to lock it down like that.

Basically, it sounds like they're using the same sort of environment as the Zune HD and Xbox 360 (but adding silverlight which is not supported on either of those) but allowing the chosen few to go beyond. I really hope that it's not as strict as these docs sound.

At any rate, this will not spell the end of XDA. If anything, it's the opposite. It's a new challenge and will be high profile. Will we be cooking our own ROMs? Who knows. But I have little doubt that we'll be able to at least dev in native code. They very well may use some sort of application signing process. But code will have to be able to be side loaded even if only through Visual Studio/XNA (or something similar).
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] thx1200:
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I don't think it's going to be bad. Microsoft has long promoted code signing and verified installation paths for Windows Mobile -- it's just they were commonly disabled a lot of the time by OEMs (and especially by us lol). I think the big takeaway here is the limitations imposed on the OEMs, partners, and Marketplace.

I really think there is going to be a channel for those power users that want high levels of tweakability. If you parse the wording carefully in the various leaked docs, it talks largely about using the limited APIs so you can get approved during the application verification process. Well, 99.9% of the stuff here at XDA is not going that direction! We don't care if Microsoft blesses it for Marketplace.

As long as there is a manual mechanism (hopefully not requiring developer tools, as a previous poster noted with the Zune) to get apps onto the phone, we probably will have any API on the phone there is to work with available to us. The bigger question over using the underlying CE API is, what are the implications of the application sandbox? Is there any way to get out of it?

There's always Windows Phone 6.5.3... ;-) I have a feeling that we are all going to have several years to truly adapt and crack this nut open.

And if it proves to be too restricting **big sigh** ther'es always Android.. .grumble grumble hate Java with a firey passion grumble.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] RustyGrom:
Native code won't be sandboxed, just managed code.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] vangrieg:
Quite frankly, if you did a UI library you should've expected it wouldn't work, shouldn't you???

Droid does multitask. But it sucks in every other way, IMO.

If I were Microsoft, I'd be religious about these restrictions insofar as "partners" and especially operators are concerned! I mean, if these guys aren't allowed to put their crapware into shipped phones I'm happy. I also see logic in controlling what's distributed via the marketplace. All this doesn't necessarily mean that there's no other way to code and distribute apps. Probably making apps the unofficial way won't make you money and will require phones that are hacked somehow. But isn't that xda's battlefield to begin with? I mean, I don't care about Marketplace/App Store anyway. But most people (the wide market) do. So if MS bring this mass market to commercial devs and leave a loophole for the rest of us I think we could get the best of both worlds.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] thx1200:
Rereading the leaked docs, I'm starting to feel this stronger. They mention Native API needs, then say if you find it useful and required, they will document it. Interesting choice of words. It's like they are admitting the full native API is still there under the hood, but they are only going to officially support the stuff OEMs and MOs need. That's fine by me.

I guess one of the first WM7 tasks for the hackers will be DLL dumps. Then it's off to the CE7 MSDN documentation. lol.

I'm really thinking these docs are just a big set of guidelines which OEMs/MOs and Marketplace have to follow, but the rest is still there if you don't use the official MS channels.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] vangrieg:
Indeed. If you read current Marketplace requirements, you don't really see a very open system free to tweaking. Can you even do a service by current requirements?
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] ramdroid77:
sure! But it was necessary to enhance a product running on WM 5, 6, 6.5 but that still looked like it was written for PPC 2002. And those phones will still be used by various people for quite some time no matter what's the deal about WP7. Like I said, I don't mind developing a new UI for WP7! I just want to make sure I'm still able to develop for it the way I need it = to be able to port the product and ANY future products/ideas to WP7. That's all my issues.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] ramdroid77:
I think services are allowed. But I agree there are many restrictions. There's already quite some restrictions if you only want to get your application signed with privileged certificates. But then... how many apps are available at Marketplace? 100? 200? maybe 300? It's more like monkey business anyway....
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] thx1200:
No, you cannot! I have a service (ReRemind) that I was going to release through Marketplace for 99 cents, but nope. The registry is highly restricted and service installation requires manipulating keys in HKLM.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] vangrieg:
I hear you. Yet, trying to place myself into MS's shoes, I can see logic in locking it up. They do need to do something about the platform fragmentation, hardware and UI wise; they do need to make Marketplace a more central distribution platform to make it a viable channel for big biz devs like EA e.a. In order to achieve all that, they do need to tighten things up quite a bit.

Yet they do have a choice of providing options for loosening the restrictions. If I were them, I'd leave this opportunity to the user, without making it too easy (just so my wife can't do it within the built-in finger-friendly UI), but definitely wouldn't allow OEMs and MOs ship unrestricted devices.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] freyberry:
[OT]

Well, I'm not going to buy a Droid. But HTC Desire looks desirable ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU7Ht9HhABI

Perfect, except for the lack of a Xenon Flash... and I hate Java, but whatever... at least there are some native APIs, multitasking etc. on Android.[/OT]
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] RustyGrom:
I'm just curious how they're going to handle corporate, etc. For them, they have to allow some sort of side loading. I'm not sure how the iPhone handles this but it sounds like through their app store still...
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] vangrieg:
Well, I don't think that's because of restrictions.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] ramdroid77:
with privileged mode you get access to all registry keys in HKLM. I thought I'm sure you get that privileged access with the Marketplace certificates as well. Did they reject your submission or why do you know? i.e. to change the application icon for WM 6.5 start menu you have to set some registry keys in HKLM\Security and that's even recommended by Microsoft. Indeed they actually promoted it on http://developer.windowsmobile.com/
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] PeterI:
I'm finding this frustrating, the docs shown seem to suggest the appstore will only host silverlight / xna apps. In practice I'm more than happy with that (assuming performance doesn't suck) .net apps can be verified and I suspect the talk of limited native API access is for just that reason. After all I probably don't want an application sending SMS messages covertly, if the ISV has had to ask for permission to do so then I would guess that MS could mark the application in the app store and warn the user.

Reading between the lines this may mean it's possible that "old skool" ISVs can still write apps that talk to the underlying native API BUT they won't ever appear in the app store.

Interestingly it also sounds like MS are beating the telcos up and forcing them to play nicely as well.

Sadly we'll have to wait for MIX to find out for sure.

Note: I have abandonded WinMo (6.5 didn't impress and the delays on the HD2 shipping made me jump) and gone for a Nokia N900 for my current phone.

WM7 had better let me do native development / interop to native API without "jail breaking" or I'm not coming back. My contract renewal cycle will probably work nicely with WM7 devices.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] bobble106:
Cross platform nirvana?

One of the more interesting thing about effcetively dropping C++ and movign to C# is the potential for phone Cross platform developement. Now that would be a serious advantage! Using C# ViStudio, Mono, MonoTouch, Net60, plus any other out there. One code base, compile time switches and different outputs, that would be a nice place to end up....

I know... please let me dream for a short while....
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] thx1200:
I may have to research deeper. When I looked it a long time ago, I swear I saw the exact registry keys the service needed were excluded, but I am not an expert, so I may be wrong. I haven't paid my $100 yet, so I haven't an opportunity for it to be rejected.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] thx1200:
Java hasn't been able to pull this off yet and they've had like 20 years. lol. Don't get me wrong, cross-platform development has improved with managed code, but Managed Code Nirvana is not here yet.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] RustyGrom:
Mary Jo Foley posted an article about this including some tidbits from a source of hers.

So if it's only XAML-like, won't that kill the cross-platform-ness? lol.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] Chainfire:
Yes you can. See my "RoamFreely" app in marketplace, that's a service with seperate configuration UI.

It does require jumping through some hoops and you need priviliged signing, but it is allowed.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] thx1200:
Okay I just reread this for the third time. The attached image you show says nothing about pausing an application in the background. In fact, it seems to imply the opposite. It says that it supports pre-emptive multitasking to make it appear more than one app runs at the same time. (Definition of pre-emptive multitasking.) In addition, it says the system supports an unlimited number of processes (yay - no more 32 process limit) and each process can create an unlimited number of threads, with the only barrier being sufficient system resources.

Where does it say that only one app runs at a time using the new APIs?
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] freyberry:
It doesn't say anything about multitasking!

That's why I've been asking about that, but people seem to ignore me! :mad:

Is there any paragraph in that document that says whether third party apps are paused when sent to the background?

Any info on what can run in the background and what can not? How about GPS tracking or downloading files in the background?
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] vangrieg:
I think people just don't really know.
[Windows Phone 7 Development and Hacking] RustyGrom:
Because noone knows the answer to your question.

One interesting bit... the platform provides "Runtime services on devices that can be used to access web services in the cloud, such as windows live, windows azure, and third-party services for storage, identity, notifications, and gaming." Not sure what, exactly that means.

The fact that there's a whole section on "Processes and Threads" is probably a good sign.