yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Hero CDMA Android Development] cmccracken:
Here's the latest reply I received, after sending a bit of a rant asking why my request was still unresolved (and really, untouched) after two weeks:

I still haven't even received a "we're working on it" communication from them. I've seen nothing besides "Your request has been forwarded". I'd be jobless if I handled customer service the way HTC does.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] Is_907:
http://BabbleDroid.blogspot.com

My blog is usually focused on introducing non-programmers and non-hackers to the concepts of hacking an Android phone... but I can easily spare a post for this ;)

Feel free to link my blog or that post specifically anywhere you'd like. So far it's just a basic explanation of the thread and a link to this thread. Later I'll probably add some more summary and critique.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] posguy99:
Engadget has reported on it at least once, as has Slashdot. Engadget is doing such a good job making themselves irrelevant, though, I can't see anything they say making a difference.

Or am I the only person that was driven away by the absolute mess they've made of themselves?
[Hero CDMA Android Development] flexgrip:
I use nothing but open-source operating systems and apps. All of the modules, scripts, and plugins I have written are completely open source and given away. I completely converted about 5 years ago. And you know what? I thought, why not switch on my phone too. I got a sprint hero because I like the idea of android and thought "Maybe I could build a few apps that would make my life better. And if others find them useful and want to use them... great!"

And here we are. Switching to an open source phone has been proven to be not-so-open. Thanks HTC.

I sent my 3rd letter in two weeks without a response, just a minute ago. God I wish I was an attorney.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] Kcarpenter:
Bump. Got pushed page 2. :D We can let it die if we get source or if we get a full kernel from maejrep and the guys there.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] wtphoto:
well I got the same copy and paste responce today that everyone has been getting saying that they are going through legal chanels.

that tells me that they really did do something that they are not supposed to because if they had not then the only legal concern would be to be in complience with GPL and with their own EULA.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] deadonarivalry:
tweeted @htc again today

@htc, hey buddy. gonna see that CDMA Hero kernel source soon huh? I mean, it's been 3mo+. gotta be almost done. right?
[Hero CDMA Android Development] flexgrip:
Sort of canned response:

Here is my response as of tonight.

I have a three hour break tomorrow in between client meetings. I will be calling them over and over tomorrow until I get an explanation of what exact legal issues they are referring to, the source code, or my 4pm meeting. This literally makes me regret buying this phone.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] badutahboy:
I'm liking the refund idea here. It'd be great if whoever it was who spoke to his attorney earlier in the thread could call him again and ask if we're covered under the EULA and have legal standing to request a refund/damages due to the breach of contract by HTC.

If we do have legal standing to threaten action under the EULA, the losses to HTC could be substantial. In theory, I could sue them for the retail value of my phone, plus damages to the tune of the full cost of fulfilling my new contract.. That'd be $2400 + tax, plus the $500 for the phone.... and it'd be an instant class action suit to boot.

Now, I know it'll probably never actually come to that (and in reality I'd probably end up with retail value of the phone + costs for early termination of my contract), but we could theoretically have a tool there which we could use to force HTC's hand. If the EULA is clear, binding, and enforcable by us, any of us (or a few of us) could spend a few bucks getting an attorney to write a demand letter, and get HTC's attention in a very official manner.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] rt1oo:
@ flexgrip:

I think you win the thread
[Hero CDMA Android Development] oxeneers:
+1 +1 +1
[Hero CDMA Android Development] tkirton:
That, or this is the 2.1 Update they keep talking about.

I was thinking about this over the weekend. I honestly don't intend to see the release of the 1.5 kernel and not because it is so close now for 2.1 to be released. I honestly think they didn't think about the ramifications on hacking the 1.5 code to run on CDMA. I believe they thought that nobody would notice that the source was modified, coupled with some mass confusion as to what is GPL code versus Apache license code.

This wasn't an issue when a couple of people was asking for a source, because they could give them a generic response. When a whole development community (XDA) started asking for the code (repeatedly), they realized they have to release the modifications they did (or try to stall as long as possible). Best way to stall in HTC's opinion? Push it to legal (I don't think the letters about legal recourse if they don't release the source code helped.)

But now they are so close to releasing 2.1 (within the next six months) that, if they stall long enough, they won't have to release the 1.5 kernel and nobody will know what they did to hack the code.

Of course, this is just my opinion about it.

Edit: You know, now that I got that thought process out in the open, I just realized something. Nobody (including me) has asked HTC which kernel source code is in legal, version 1.5 or version 2.1? Perhaps that's where all the disconnects between XDA and HTC are coming from the fact that we are talking about 1.5 and they are talking about 2.1. Just a thought.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] fatkitty420:
I want a refund.

I'm going to approach Sprint today and tell them they advertised an Open Source phone which - as it stands - is false advertisement. Their HTC partner is screwing us and it's not my job to make sure HTC upholds their user agreement, but Sprints job because they are providing the device within the US.

Does that sound good?

Can someone link me to some of the exact lines from the Terms of Service/ User Agreement that could help us?

If I can get a refund for the device and break the contract because of their foul up (meaning no ETF) I'll just go get a Nexus One. It's HTC, but at least the Kernel for that device wont be "hacked" together from another device.

EDIT:

This is my reply to HTC.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] Kcarpenter:
Please keep us posted on what your out come is. I would like to see how far you get asking for a refund. That would be nice... I could use an extra 200 bucks and a Nexus. :-) I think the source is already out for it.

However, on a side note (please don't get mad, just an observation): It will be nice to see how many people on this thread will actually download and use the source... I'm guessing not as many as are requesting it.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] wtphoto:
its a good observation, however as im sure you know most of dont have the skill set the the devs like flipz, toast, modaco, etc. have. Will I be able to do anything with this source code? at this point no, but I can try and help pressure HTC to release it so that the people that can use it have it. The devs on here do so much and spend so much time helping us. I figure the least I can do is try and get HTC to give them what they need to do the work that they do.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] fatkitty420:
It's not that we are going to use the source individually, but that the actual ROM devs will have an easier time.

It's people like me who really enjoy what the ROM devs can do. If I can help them out in any way, which includes fighting HTC for the kernel, than I think I should.

It just feels good to put in some of the leg work on creating awesome stuff on our phones.

EDIT:

Also, a Nexus One would be sweet. Feels good man.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] johnsongrantr:
I will personally give 1 dollar to any person on here complaining, that has fullfilled the following requirements.

1)personally written code that is contained in the kernel in question

2)nope... that's all I got

as a non-contributeing consumer you are suspecting (more than likely correctly) that some company is breaking the law. It is not effecting you one bit. Your work isn't stolen, being pirated, resold anything like that. The biggest way I could imagine anyone claiming they're rights have been violated (by an tiwaneese company where american laws don't apply) is false advertising. And I could only guess that they could give a rat's ass about you not getting what you expected to get.

Please stop sending threatening letters and emails to htc, if you arn't going to stop that, at the very least, quit re-posting that crap on these boards, this is susposed to be a developers forum. This section isn't specifically desiginated for general talk, but this should really be put there. If you are going to take legal action, hire a lawer and take them to court, or get a bunch of people and file a petition or class action law suit. Explain to the court, judge, lawers, how they have broken the law, provide evidence, and explain how your rights have been violated. Tell us how it went, but let that be the end of this.

I promised myself I wouldn't go off on this thread, but it keeps getting bumped for whatever reason.

I just need to quit reading this thread, it makes me so angry at overzealous end-users.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] tkirton:
1. Under the EULA (which do apply since that is a contractual agreement between you and HTC), I have the right to the source code. It's under Section 3.

2. I have not threatened legal action. I have made a simple request to HTC for the code. They stated it was in legal. My plan is to follow up on that in about a week or two with a progress request. I was purposely avoiding such confrontation as it is usually counterproductive. Why break down a door to enter a building when you can simply use a key and turn the door knob?

3. Whatever I want to use the code for, that is my right, so long as I don't violate the EULA. I don't have to share any modifications or tweaks if I'm not distributing it.

4. If you don't like the thread, don't read it. Nobody is forcing you to read it. I don't read every thread on this board.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] Kcarpenter:
Oh, I am not complaining at all like some people ^^^^

I enjoy that the users are willing to put pressure where it needs to be put. Again to the moron above who thinks we are sending hateful emails, if you'll read back a few pages most of us don't send hateful emails and want to keep this friendly.

One of the things about being a developer, you are allowed to have a big ego, you can do something 98% of other people can't. I completly understand that most people will only reap the benefits, and thats enitrely cool with me. This is how open source works. I just get a kick over how passioniate people get.

EDIT:

Damn it, got pushed to the next page.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] fatkitty420:
I understand how you may be somewhat irritated at the nature of this thread but you should realize the ramifications it could have for future development.

HTC is setting precedent to continue this way of handling future kernel source code. I, for one, would like to nip it in the bud. This could be the dark beginning of something much worse. Where "Open Source" is just another marketing technique and doesn't really apply anymore.

I will contact Sprint and ask to cancel my contract once HTC confirms they violated the EULA. This will be grounds for false advertisement.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] rank78:
Not only is this thread directly related to deving but it also relates to my rights as a consumer.

I really don't see any logical reason for finding this thread inappropriate or unnecessary, either the complaints go nowhere or the kernel gets released and devs get more to work with. With all due respect to a mod, if you don't like the discussion then don't read it. It's just one thread.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] johnsongrantr:
no i completely understand why the source of the kernel is wanted/needed. I understand it is your software dev's given right that you have it for whatever means you deem nessisary. But I honestly don't think that harrasing HTC is the way about getting it. I'm just extremely tired of hearing the umpteen ways of how people are harrassing these guys into hopefully getting it. If they would have given into the requests they would have just done so by now.

They are gonig to release it when they are going to release it. No encouraging is required, and I'm sure they are VERY aware that they are legally obligated to do so. But in the end they have their own timeline that they are choosing to follow. You trying to get in the middle and remind them that they are doing something they are aware they are doing, is not helping. It's not doing anything. It's just pissing off their customer support, and stopping them from fielding issues from people who have actual problems with their products.

The point I am attempting to make is, stop posting updates on this if no progress has been made. I seriously doubt anyone really cares how you're flaming htc, or telling them what they already know.

EDIT: I am not a mod, but this isn't directly related to developing, the end result WOULD result in developing, but this it hasn't actually produced or discussion about produceing anything, or solved any problem with an application or software. It's just about HTC not releaseing code they are legally obligated to release, and the adventures of the users in trying to get them to release it. That's why I think it should be filed under general talk. But that's just my opinion.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] foxmeister:
Immaterial - they have shipped a product containing code licensed under the GPL. As a result, they *must* make the source code available on request. The fact that they will be releasing an updated version of their product doesn't alter this. I believe that they are obligated to do this up to 3 years after the product is out of support.

Neither! The version of Android (1.5 vs 2.1) is quite separate from the version of the kernel. The kernel in the Hero Android 1.5 build is 2.6.27 and in 2.1 it is a later version - I believe 2.6.29, as this is what we are seeing in the leaked builds, but we won't know for sure until 2.1 drops.

Since HTC have not formally released their version of Android 2.1 for the Hero (including relevant kernel), they are under no obligation to release the kernel source for that particular build as yet. This changes the second they actually formally release 2.1 for Hero.

Regards,

Dave
[Hero CDMA Android Development] foxmeister:
Actually, it is! The description for this subforum reads:

I'd say this thread falls squarely into that description.

What I don't understand is why the Droid Eris (Verizon "Hero") got it's own set of forums, and the Sprint Hero just got a subforum off of the GSM Hero's forums.

Regards,

Dave
[Hero CDMA Android Development] badutahboy:
I couldn't disagree more.

Are you honestly trying to claim that pressure from Consumers has never made a company do something they didn't want to do? If you pay any attention to sites like Engadget, phonescoop, etc, many of their stories come exactly like situation like this..They may not credit the communities that raise the issues they report, but those sites would NEVER run with a story that wasn't already well documented and growing in popularity. We need to do the legwork and get enough basis established that someone bigger (whether that's a media outlet or a class action attorney) is willing to pick up the ball and run with it.. If we don't get results on our own, getting the situation to become big enough to grab the attention of someone on that next level more than likely WILL.

Finally, it doesn't matter if I'm a developer or not. I'm still entitled to the code, and I'm still being harmed by their refusal to release it. I don't have to develop my own software to have the legal right to update my open source software. Sprint is interfering with their legal obligation to enable developers to carry this project forward, and that ABSOLUTELY negatively impacts me.

As has been said before.. If you don't like this thread, don't read it... or at least, don't bring your baseless complaints to a group of people who are standing up for their rights in an organized and completely legitimate manner.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] badutahboy:
I think that HTC just gave you a great opportunity to involve Sprint, and I think that maybe now is a good time to take our fight to Sprint. However, I'd also keep on HTC's case. What you're asking for is essentially for HTC to recall your phone. That obligation DOES NOT fall on Sprint's shoulders. Sprint isn't the company violating the EULA, HTC is. As such, this is ultimately HTC's responsibility, but we can use Sprint to expedite the process and/or put extra pressure on HTC.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] chuckhriczko:
Because we are the Hero and there is already a Hero forum. If we were here first and GSM came second then we it would be reversed.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] badutahboy:
The Eris is also the Hero.. just retitled at Verizon's request.

It's never bugged me that we're in a subforum, but his question makes perfect sense.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] wasupwithuman:
Email every major news site, and all the tech sites, I'm pretty sure engadget would put something up. Thats why all i said is we would make it publicly known, so if we go around spreading the word we are making it publicly known... :)
[Hero CDMA Android Development] jonnythan:
It is a solid argument because the GPL is fairly simple to read and comprehend. It's only a few pages long:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.txt

Read it, and it will become clear: if you make modifications to GPL code and release the binaries, you must also release the source. It's a viral license - any code licensed under the GPL must remain open source even if it's modified. So your statement that "HTC should have the right to keep the portion of code they worked on closed source" is dead wrong - they are legally required to release any modifications they make to GPL code, such as the Linux kernel, in products they release.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] wasupwithuman:
Yeah from my research, the actual android distribution shipped with the phones can be claimed under Apache2, but the linux kernel it uses can never be claimed under that licensing, it is strictly under the GPL licensing agreement. to the point where look at this article: Best Buy, Samsung, others named in GPL suit if companies can get sued for that, then HTC might be seeing a law suit if they don't shape up.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] chuckhriczko:
Good point. I'm sure many media outlets (Engadget, TechCrunch, Slashdot) would love to post a story like that and how HTC is doing whatever they can to not release it. Maybe we can even get podcasts like Twit and Revision3 and maybe even non tech outlets to post about this. I would even go as far as creating a boycott HTC site and get that out there. As long as they begin following the law. HTC isnt the only one but they are the biggest one as they have so many Android phones out there.

Also, didnt Microsoft get in trouble with the GPL for releasing Windows or another product that used GPL'd code without releasing that source? That might be a good point to bring up in a letter too if I am correct.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] 702DROID:
i emailed them last night as well and got thi response when i checked my inbox this morning

Thank you for contact HTC Technical Support via email about the source code for the CDMA Hero.

I can understand how important it is to have this available. If you go to http://developer.htc.com/ you will find the source code the Android devices. However, if your device is branded by a specific carrier such as Sprint, Cellular South, etc is same exact kennel but the CDMA has additional applications and programs that are proprietary to work on the CDMA network no changes were made to source code as these programs were designed to run with source code.

HTC also other pages you can visit they are www.htcwiki.com, www.youtube.com/user/HTC, twitter.com/Htc, or www.facebook.com/HTC for self-help, tips & tricks, and you can also take a survey at http://survey.htc.com/worldwide/. You can also check for other self-help at http://androidcommunity.com/forums/.

Sincerely,

Kay

HTC Technical Support
[Hero CDMA Android Development] chuckhriczko:
I gotta say I love how they try to get you to do that survey every time you email them. Anyway, so they are basically trying to tell us that the kernel was not modified in any way and it is just apks that are added to it? There is no way it can be just the GSM kernel, right? Otherwise we would have gotten it working, right?
[Hero CDMA Android Development] wasupwithuman:
hmm, not trying to be a smartass or anything, oh wait i am... HTC just gave me permission to flash a GSM kernel to my phone (which will indeed cause a brick no matter what) BECAUSE the GSM AND CDMA KERNEL are the same except for the "additional applications and programs" to make it run... wow :eek::eek::eek::eek: i'm sure htc would love getting a handful of bricked phones back because of their illogical mistake....
[Hero CDMA Android Development] chuckhriczko:
Ha ha. Good call man!
[Hero CDMA Android Development] animal7296:
I got the exact same reply this morning as you did chuck. That seems to be their scripted response that they are going to use. What a Pain in the a$$.
[Hero CDMA Android Development] Nodata:
I emailed them. I'll post my response when I get it.

I don't know exactly how to ask for the kernel, but I tried to make it clear I only wanted the kernel source and not anything else. If anyone can help me clarify what I should ask for I'll try again once they reply with something of absolutely no use to us.