yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Liquid S100 General] Shasarak:
That is only the case because of the stupidity and narrow-mindedness of HTC and Qualcomm (and, to a degree, Microsoft). There is no technical reason why an application shouldn't be able to handle a much wider range of codecs and still take full advantage of hardware acceleration. But Qualcomm insists on charging too much for the intellectual property rights to run software that is optimised for its hardware; HTC is too mean-minded to pay Qualcomm's fees and too lazy to ship its own multi-format software player (compare with, say, Samsung, whose proprietary video player software is both hardware-accelerated and extremely flexible about formats); and Microsoft can't be arsed to make Pocket Media Player support a sufficient range of formats and codecs either.

One can even quite reasonably blame the authors of Coreplayer for not having yet launched a version capable of using NEON instructions for video acceleration (something that is in the public domain and not under Qualcomm's control). All in all it's a bloody waste.

I completely disagree. Plenty of video is only available in 720p format; even for stuff that is available in 720p and low-res versions, the low-res version is often so low-res that downscaling the HD version would look a lot better on a screen the size of the HD2. It would be enormously much more convenient if one could simply download and play the 720p version without having to spend hour after hour after hour on conversion, and use only one version of the fule on both the phone and a desktop PC. Obviously this is not something you personally would find useful, but that doesn't mean you have to be such a dog-in-the-manger about it: the attitude of "I don't want to do it, therefore no one needs to or should be allowed to" is really rather narrow-minded.
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
Shasarak,

you don't understand. You are making assumptions that are simply not true. Let me correct you:

Wrong: It has NOTHING to do with Microsoft and HTC. Nothing. It is only because of the Qualcomm chipset, that only supports acceleration for certain video formats.

BUT this is not an 'issue' limited to Qualcomm! There is no phone chipset that supports hardware acceleration of different video formats!

I don't know about the reasons, but fact is that NO phone chipsets supports that acceleration. So there must be a reason.

Even IF Microsoft or HTC would develop/pay for the appropriate software, the phones would STILL not be able to play other file formats because the chipset simply doesn't support it.

And other chipsets (not from Qualcomm) don't support it either.

Sure, it would be more convenient.

BUT as I explained several times: It doesn't matter whether the phone supports 720p playback or not, because conversion is always necessary due to limitations of the chipset, which only supports acceleration for certail formats (which applies not only to Qualcomm chipsets, but to every other chipset as well).

Thsi is not my attitude.

PLEASE READ PROPERLY BEFORE YOU ATTACK PEOPLE.

I explained to you in detail why 720p playback ability does NOT mean that conversion is not necessary. Thus, your argument of "not having to convert the videos" is misplaced. As you can read in the article above, the Acer Liquid ONLY plays 720p video that has been converted. And this is the case with any other phone as well, because of the reasons I explained above.
[Liquid S100 General] [★]:
I dont know much about playback in 720p on the HD2 yet, but

Damien123_666 has done loads of camera tweaks (very good by the looks of it) and if you notice, he is working on recording in 720p

So theres obviously the potential
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
Damiens thread is about recording 720p video, not playing it. Afaik Snapdragon has the potential of recording 720p video.

Here it's true, HTC is to blame for not enabling it.

But what I was talking about is 720p playback.

This is only possible with hardware acceleration.

Hardware acceleration is only possible for certain formats.

This means: Even if your phone supports 720p playback, you still have to convert the files.

Shasarak said that 720p would be a benefit because we would not have to convert the files.

But that's not true.

Even if HTC would develop/purchase the necessary software, we would STILL have to convert the videos.

(like on the Liquid, see the linked post)

That means: The argument of "not having to convert the videos" is not applicable here, because it doesn't matter whether the phone supports 720p or not, the files must ALWAYS be converted.

This means: The only advantage of 720p would be playing back HD videos on a TV.

But our HD2 does not have TV out.

This means: 720p playback capability would not be useful for us, as we would still have to convert the files and we don't have TV out.

I hope that was clear enough now.

@Shasarak

You CAN blame HTC/Microsoft for not enabling 720p playback, that's true.

BUT even IF they would enable it, they could ONLY enable it for certain file formats. You CAN NOT blame them for not enabling 720p for all formats, because this is a hardware limitation that exists on all other phones as well, no matter what manufacturer or OS.
[Liquid S100 General] loomx:
I think you will find that people were blaming HTC for not enabling support. No one was complaining about it being available on only certain formats.

If my phone is capable of something, then I would like it to be able to do it. Simple as that.
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
No, you got it wrong, too.

People are not only blaming HTC for not enabling 720p playback, they are also blaming HTC/MS for not enabling it for all formats, and that's nonsense because that is not HTC's or MS's fault but a hardware limitation.

Just because the hardware is capable doesn't mean you can expect the support. It also needs software and that adds additional developing costs!

If HTC would have enabled it, they would have had additional costs, which means the phone would have been more expensive for you.

You can only expect what you pay for. You paid NOT for 720p video support, because that was not advertised anywhere by HTC.

HTC made the desicion not to enable it in order to be able to sell the phone at lower price. You either respect that desicion or buy another phone. You can not expect anything that nobody promised to you.

And as explained before, due to the fact that conversion is ALWAYS needed, 720p support is useless without TV out. You should be happy that you didn't have to pay for a useless feature.
[Liquid S100 General] MasterTP:
seed_al

WTF are you talking about? Convertion is always needed? The CPU will downscale the video on the fly to fit the screen. You don't seem to know much (just like the Zunehd does). Any CPU is capable of.playing any format as long as the software enables it. You don't seem to understand this. SnapDragon just like nVidia's Tegra APX (& iPhone 3GS) is capable of decoding 720p WMV/MP4/H.264 at a bitrate up to 14bit/s 29fps. Even a feking Pentium2 can do this but at something like 0.02fps. The fact is that the software/drivers on WinMo aren't provided on the HD2
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
@MasterTP

Wrong. Completely.

You're mixing up hardware and software decoding! Do some research.

Of course any CPU can play anything. But only with software decoding, no hardware acceleration!

Hardware acceleration is only possible for certain formats. You even said that yourself: Snapdragon is cabable of decoding H.264/MP4 with the right software. But nothing else. Same for Tegra, iPhone and all the others!

That means even IF HTC had enabled 720p support, we would still have to convert the videos. Exactly what I said above. So please, next time, think before you post, instead of mixing everything up.

You guys are mixing everything up! I really don't know how to explain it any clearer.

I'll try one last time:

Okay, first of all: You have to distinguish between software and hardware decoding.

Every CPU can decode anything via software with the right codecs. That's what programs like Coreplayer do.

BUT: Software decoding is slow. Much too slow for 720p HD video.

THUS: 720p playback is only possible with hardware decoding.

Snapdragon, Tegra etc. support hardware decoding of 720p video.

BUT: Only for certain formats and only with the right software.

THUS: If HTC would provide the software, we could play 720p video like the Acer Liquid.

BUT: We would still have to convert the video files! (same for Acer Liquid, iPhone etc.)

THUS: The 720p playback capability would not free us from having to convert the videos!

THUS: The only advantage would be the ability to play 720p video on a TV.

BUT: Our HD2 does not have TV out.

THUS: 720p playback capability would not help us at all. We would still have to convert the videos and we would still have no TV out.

Okay, I think this is as clear as it gets. Got it now?
[Liquid S100 General] DuperMan:
This thread made me lol:)

Personally I want my phone's battery to get hot enough for use as a hotplate.

There isn't a technical reason not to un-enable this non-feature, so HTC are stupid and m$ is evil.

F.Y.I Macbooks can do this since 2006 so don't say I'm uninformed
[Liquid S100 General] Shasarak:
No, I'm afraid you're the one who is mixing things up. It is indeed the situation at the moment is that only certain video player applications can make use of hardware acceleration on the HD2, and that those applications are only capable of playing a limited range of video formats. You make the mistake of assuming that, because this is the case, there must be something about those video formats which makes it inherently easy to play them with hardware acceleration, while it is inherently not possible to play any other format that way.

That is not true. There is no technical reason why someone cannot make a video player app which can play back any video and take advantage of hardware acceleration while doing it; the reason this hasn't happened is because of a combination of money-grubbing, selfishiness and incompetence on the part of Qualcomm, HTC, Microsoft, and a few other companies too.

If either Qualcomm were to release full details of their hardware, or HTC were prepared to spend a little more money, someone would then be able to write a video player app which could play back as many formats as Coreplayer and use full hardware acceleration while doing it. Whether that theoretical application could play back 720p video smoothly is another question; but I wouldn't be surprised. Assuming it could, such an application would require no conversion of 720p material to play it.
[Liquid S100 General] munemune:
well it DOSE can play 720P with htc album. but for baseline profile and only 15fps……OK? 720P is here will you use it？
[Liquid S100 General] adell_:
I don't know what seed_al was talking about.

I can play 720p video on my Touch HD (not HD2), but the performance is terrible.

If CPU is powerful enough, and software can utilize the GPU, playing back 720p (.avi) smoothly on a phone is possible for sure.
[Liquid S100 General] adell_:
[deleted - Mod please delete this message]
[Liquid S100 General] shirreer:
dude, calm yourself down; if they don't get it then they just don't get it!
[Liquid S100 General] Caramel:
Playing 720p HD video on a 4.3 inches screen is totally useless :cool:

Sometime some peoples create stupids threads :D
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
Well, judging from their posts, obviously they still didn't get it. Whatever... you're right, I'm only wasting my time with those people. They are not even able to understand that linked post, that clearly says that the Acer Liquid, just like any other phone, can't play 720p without conversion.

If they are not even able to read such a short article, then why did I think they would understand my explanation? Don't know, but I'm not gonna waste any more time. I have explained the facts several times, they either get it or stay dumb.
[Liquid S100 General] Toss3:
Being able to play 720p movies on a phone without an internal hdd is unnecessary as the HD2 doesn't support any other file format than Fat32 which in turn only supports <4Gb files. Not to mention that most people could only fit one or two movies on their storage cards at a time, due to larger microsdhc cards being pretty expensive.

Wouldn't mind having better video playback support though.
[Liquid S100 General] LB280772:
I understand you and I think ppl are mixing thinks too...

Watching a movie on our beloved HD2 (or any other mobile device on Earth) makes use of 2 main processes: movie stream decoding and the image rendering.

First the image rendering

What is the image rendering? when a frame has been decoded (see the second point), it need to be displayed on the screen, but first you need to construct it and apply some filters (down/up scaling, smooting, strech it, apply some color normalisation,....). To do so, you have two ways to achieve it:

the standard API to draw the pixels like GDI that is not hardware accelarated

make use of the GPU, the hardware accelarated way.

Secondly the video stream decoding:

The same concept apply here:

The hardware decoding is only forseen for H264 coded streams (like on the majority of the existing mobile devices: PSP, Ipod, Iphone...). It is in the specification of the Qualcomm CPUs and only for some of the available profiles. Technically it is achieved by the Qtv chipset that is accessible to developers via a DirectShow filter.

The software decoding. It uses heavily the CPU to decode the video stream. It is far less efficient than the hardware decoding, but more flexible (no codec/profiles restriction)...

Software like TCPMP or CodePlayer only partially support (read not for the HD2) hardware accelaration for frame rendering not for stream decoding.

So seed_al is right when he says you need to convert the movie so the hardware decoding can be used... And other ppl are partially right too when they say it is not necessary to do it because they can use the GPU to render the frames...

The best and more efficient way, regarding the battery life (heavy use of the CPU impact the battery life) and the decoding speed, is to use an application optimized (using hardaware accelaration for both decoding and rendering) for the HD2... But wait.... Such application exists and it is free, and best of all it is already on our device: it is the HTC album...

One fact is that the only API offers by Qualcomm/HTC to render movies is the DirectShow filter used by WMP and HTC Album. Officialy Qualcomm/HTC only suppoy H264 coding/decoding. I you want more you need to tweak/hook the Qtv chipset directly and it seems it is not free... and not easy to use (backward compatibily issues with other versions of the chipset)...

Peace and love...
[Liquid S100 General] Shasarak:
We understand that perfectly. You still don't understand that this fact is merely one more consequence of Qualcomm's pig-headed unwillingness to release details of their hardware for public consumption. If they did that then the Liquid would be able to play back 720p in other, unconverted formats (and maybe the HD2 could too).
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
It's not only Qualcomm, it's the same with all others.

Why do you think Apple doesn't let you put any Video on the iPhone and requires you to convert it through iTunes? Hm? Right, because it only accelerates the right .mp4 format, like the Liquid and all the others.

You're always quick at pointing your fingers at Qualcomm, HTC, Microsoft, but obviously you still have not understood anything. If you hate Qualcomm/HTC/Microsoft so much, why not just buy an iPhone or Blackberry or Droid? Maybe that would make your life better, as you wouldn't have to constantly complain about Qualcomm/HTC/MS anymore?

(but may be even more so about RIM/Apple/Google/Motorola :D)
[Liquid S100 General] MasterTP:
Humm no that's because Apple decided to only support .MOV/.MP4 (limited to 640X480) on the iPhone it has NOTHING to do with the hardware (as proved by videos of jailbroken iPhone 3GS playing back 720P videos). We are not talking about decoding BlueRay rips on a phone, just basic 720p support,something the current hardware is rated for.

Why does the ZuneHD support: Windows Media Video (WMV) (wmv). – Main and Simple Profile, CBR

or VBR, up to 10.0 Mbps peak video bit rate; 720 pixels x 480 pixels up

to 30 frames per second (or 720 pixels x 576 pixels up to 25 frames per

second). Advanced Profile up to L2, 1280×720 up to 30 frames per

second, CBR or VBR, up to 14.0 Mbps peak video bitrate. Zune

software will transcode HD WMV files above stated capabilities at

device sync.

MPEG-4 (MP4/M4V) (.mp4)

– Simple Profile up to 4.0

Mbps peak video bit rate; 720 pixels x 480 pixels up to 30 frames per

second (or 720 pixels x 576 pixels up to 25 frames per second).

H.264 video

– Baseline Profile + bframes, up to 10 Mbps peak video

bit rate; 720 pixels x 480 pixels up to 30 frames per second (or 720

pixels x 576 pixels up to 25 frames per second). 1280×720 up to 30

frames per second, up to Level 3.1 and 14.0 Mbps peak video bitrate.

Zune software will transcode HD WMV files above stated capabilities at

device sync.

???

Because that's what Microsoft decided to support.

Why does the HD2 support limited HW accell of .MP4 and WMV ? Because that's what HTC/MS decided.

Why can the Acer Liquid smoothly playback 720p .MP4 videos? Because that's what Acer decided.

Why will the HTC Bravo (which has the same friggin specs as the HD2) natively support DiVX decoding/Dobly Sound & 720P econding? Because this is what HTC decided.

What you can't seem to get is that the Hardware will do whatever the software/drivers will throw at it and it will do it as fast as it can. It can decode, accelerate any god damn video/music format as long as it is programmed to do it.

Just click here: http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2009...-support-to-be-enabled-by-nextreaming-player/

This is probably the DivX Media player included in the HTC Bravo.
[Liquid S100 General] vodnok:
Well, if i don't want to reencode my video befor watching on my hd2, i think it isn't so stupid.
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
@MasterTP

You completely missed the point. But whatever, I won't explain anything again, because those who still didn't get it won't ever get it and I'm not wasting my time on dumb people.

@vodnok

You would STILL have to convert everything, even with 720p support. That's why is IS useless.
[Liquid S100 General] rovex:
Winmo 6.X doesnt support the snapdragons fully instruction set, thats why it wont allow full 720P encode/decode. Winmo 7 will, we will get it then, either through an official upgrade, or a XDA custom ROM.

Android DOES fully support the snapdragon thats why the Liquid and Bravo have 720P. You have to remember the age of the Winmo 6 base, its OLD.
[Liquid S100 General] seed_al:
Where did you get this from? The only thing that's not supported is the FPU... has not much to do with 720p video playback... you guys are making stories up here... or do you have any facts to support this?

Say what you want against WM/HTC/Qualcomm... but please stick to actual facts, we have to read enough bull**** about WM already in the blogosphere.

Oh, and.... look at the specs of the HTC Bravo (Nexus One).... supports H.263, H.264, MPEG4 only... SURPRISE!!!

That means the HTC Bravo doesn't play your 720p stuff without conversion... just like any other freakin phone. Anyone here who still doesn't get it?
[Liquid S100 General] Roguexmg:
Haha this thread reminds me of good thing i was taught long ago about forums

Arguing on forums is like the paraoplympics, it doesnt matter if you win or loose your still a retard.

Appologies to those who find the saying offensive.

it certainly has been interesting reading it, there are too many factors involved regarding who is to "blame" and for the most part blaming HTC/MS/Qualcom is narrow people that hasnt grown up and doesnt understand the nature of business, it has its + points and -. the fact that we have a HD2 is certainly not because of Free spirited hippies.

Just remember...

The sweet aint as sweet without the sour
[Liquid S100 General] MasterTP:
Did you click on the link or are you trolling?

HTC Bravo specs:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/NyoR/2009-12-0619-08-52_0014.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/NyoR/2009-12-0619-10-13_0015.jpg

http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2009...-support-to-be-enabled-by-nextreaming-player/

And this:

http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2009...-video-encoding-divx-decoding-on-the-htc-hd2/
[Liquid S100 General] rovex:
Isnt H.264 AVC regular HD? Why the need to convert? Most MKVs ive got are H.264 AVC.

Its not just playback people worry about anyway its recording as well. Snapdragons core, Scorpion, is similar to A8 cortex, its more advanced than the ARM4i that winmo 6 (WinCE 5 based) supports. Does winmo also support the snapdragon DSP fully? I see Winmo on the HD2 as running windows 95 on a Core2 duo. It might well work and be fast, but you wont get blu-ray to work.

Why would HTC not give the HD2 720P capability if it was capable? If they couldnt be bothered or it was Qualcomms fault why does the Bravo have it?

Who says the FPU isnt needed for HD recording and playback?
[Liquid S100 General] arfster:
No. If drivers were available, and the relevant documentation, there would soon be several players capable of hardware acceleration (and the QSD8250's gpu supports tons of formats). Unless we're talking absurd bitrates or wildly out of L4.1, it's highly likely the hardware would be capable of handling it without any re-encoding. Even if mkv wasn't supported, just shifting it into mp4 would do the trick (easy and quick enough to be no hassle).
[Liquid S100 General] adell_:
I don't know what you mean by "doesn't play"?

You mean the application refuses to play or Qualcomm CPU will open a dialog and says I cannot play this file or something else?

I can play a 720p AVI file on my Touch HD but the performance is very bad of course.

"Doesn't play" and "Bad performance" are totally different things.

If you mean it can play but performance will not be good just say it, and I believe all disagreements will disappear immediately.
[Liquid S100 General] [★]:
*Unsubscribes from thread*
[Liquid S100 General] Mautana:
The liquid is sent with Android 1.6, and does NOT support the full potential of snapdragon. :D
[Liquid S100 General] rovex:
Maybe not, but does it support more critical aspects than Winmo 6.x?
[Liquid S100 General] Mautana:
Im youst kidding with you guys, the full potential is not there. But of course it outperforms in some aspects becouse of the newer OS on a Android device.

Its realy sad that such a great chipset is used so badley by the win mobile OS.
[Liquid S100 General] freyberry:
Still nobody has provided any proof that WM doesn't use the chipset to its potential.
[Liquid S100 General] brandi:
Also it is totally wrong what some pre-prosters said here. What you ment is that the phone needes to SCALE the video down to the size of the screen so (480X800 res) but that does NOT mean that the hardware is not capable of playing 720p videos, also the nvidia tegra chipset and the zii egg CAN play 720p divx videos and the newst gen even 1080P!!!

I'll have my HD2 next week and then do some serious testing on what video it can play back and what not!

greetz
[Liquid S100 General] rovex:
The proof is that it only supports up to Arm4i, what else is there to know?
[Liquid S100 General] freyberry:
A lot. And where's the proof that it only supports ARMv4?
[Liquid S100 General] brandi:
By the way: Did you see this benchmark?
[Liquid S100 General] MasterTP:
FYI, CorePlayer can't even open video files with a width resolution over 1000pixels so (so 1280x720p is impossible)....so the file was a re-encoded video (which was originaly in 720P).

Just checked and I was right, the [DB]_Bleach_238_[7557A643].avi (a full episode of a TV show) is only 170Mb so it's not 720P.
[Liquid S100 General] brandi:
can't anyone do a reliable benchmark for 720p and post it?!
[Liquid S100 General] lucian777:
Acer vs Archos Internet Tablet

Acer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm7E6oBQF1I

Archos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8qhGPeDDY&feature=video_response