yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
Telek, I understand where you're coming from as the vast majority of users really only care about what is going to be best for there phone. The thing is we can get all of the data we need from only one set of tests from Doug without him needing to go back and re-run the tests again. That is the beautiful thing about the CBA and the graphs it creates. On the graph it shows the 3.5v cutoff the phone has and any cell that reaches a high Mah at that cutoff will be clearly visible for all to see and will be the best choice for us no matter what it's claimed rating is.

To disprove high rating from sketchy vendors though you have to test the way the manufactures do. The problem is I have been having a hard time find those exact methods.

Here's another way to look at it. Lets say vendor X is selling a battery that is rated at 2000Mah and vendor Y has one rated at 1750. Vendor X's battery reaches 1350 @ 3.5v and makes it to 1950 @ 3.0v. Y's goes all the way to 1450 @ 3.5v but only makes it to 1650 @ 3.0v.

Vendor X isn't selling a bogus cell because it cuts off so early in our application. While it may not be what is good for us, to call him a fraud is incorrect. Vendor Y is actually the one over rating.

This is what I love about the CBA. We can see how close the batteries reach their rated Mah and also see what is best for our phone all in a single set of tests.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
Also you are right about cycling li ion. All that is needed is a full charge and it's good to go. An average of three runs should be more than enough. If for some reason one of the 3 comes abnormal a fourth can be run to verify.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
But we're not really aiming to piss of manufacturers or dispute the actual rating written on the battery itself - we're only aiming to prove how much battery life you will get in your phone. We don't care if Battery X is written as 2000mAh and can get 1950mAh running down to 2.9V - we only care that it can get 1450mAh running to 3.5V. If Battery Y gets 1800mAh to 2.9V but 1500mAh to 3.5V then Battery Y is the preferred battery in our tests.

Without knowing exactly how the manufacturer tests we won't be able to dispute their rating claim directly. By limiting the test to the circumstances of the phone we'd actually get less flak and arguments from the manufacturers. It's hard to argue when our claims and tests exactly reproduce what the phone will use. They're always going to be able to say "that's not the way that we test!" so why bother trying to fight it?

I'm trying to find the link where I remember seeing data on battery usage that indicated that bringing the battery cell that low had an adverse affect on the overall battery life. Doing that can actually affect the mAh rating that we'd get between 4.2 and 3.5V on subsequent tests and skew the results meaning that neither set of data becomes useful. Although I suppose that it something that is pretty easy to test.

Ultimately it's up to Dougie, however since we can't reproduce exactly the way that the manufacturer's test their batteries (and if it's anything like the places that I've dealt with they actually use calculations based on chemistry to determine the rating, not actual tests!) and the end goal is to provide recommendations to the phone users I still think that reproducing phone usage is going to be the best bet.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
I do agree that multiple runs should be done for any given battery. A standard of 3 with a 4th if there's an odd result sounds reasonable.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
Here's a link with some good info.

I've also found conflicting info on the discharge current used for testing. They say 1C on this site and I've seen C/5 on another "unofficial site".
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
Back when I was working with batteries for reconditioning we used 1C discharge, C/2 charge. I think realistically anything up to 1C is fine, however again it should probably be a closer match to what our phone actually uses. As we've already seen there's a decent difference between 250mA and 500mA with the majority of phone usage going to be idle I don't think that we need to go any higher than 500mA. 250mA is probably an even better test but it just takes too long ;) If we can figure out a definite pattern between the difference in mAh ratings with different discharge rates then we should be able to extrapolate based on different usage patterns what you'll be able to get without having to worry about spending too much time on discharge.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
The differences in the numbers between the 250mA & 500mA discharge rates caught my eye as well. The big difference, 12.2%, is in the heavily used OEM battery. The Andida variance is 4.9%. I would think heat and age are the main factors here. Averaged numbers will speak volumes but I'm discounting the current OEM at the moment. I don't think we'll see as big spread with new batteries.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
Doug, are you still planning on having people send you batteries to test? Or are you looking into buying some cheapy's off ebay?

I have a Seidio 1750Mah you can test. I've been using it pretty heavily the last couple months so it's not new but it will give you something else to try.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
That's actually something that I think would be quite useful - if we can test some batteries that have been used for a while and compare them to the same brand new batteries we can get a pretty good idea of how they degrade over their lifetime and how much effect (if any) reconditioning the batteries can have.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
Looks like doug is MIA.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
funny you should post that as at the time i was in my local at&t service center getting them to give me a new battery on the house. They didn't have any handy but it should be in the mail Tues.

Sorry fellas, been pretty busy.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
i'm back

Hey now everybody. So as I mentioned I went to an AT&T service center and told them my battery was only 2/3rds as good as it was when I bought it so they had AT&T mail me a new one. Turns out they opted to just send me a slimmed down 1100mAh battery instead of a 1500mAh. Sigh.

But it will do. I charged her the rest of the way up (no discharging) and am now making my way through the first test at 300mA. Started at the usual voltage, presently 3.83V with 200mAh burned. Will post the results tonight and run it again overnight.

Doug
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
With only a 1/3rd degradation over 8 months (which isn't at all unexpected) I'm surprised that they agreed to give you a new battery :)

Although even with the smaller battery I would recommend testing with the same setup as the larger battery (or 500mA) so that the results are consistent.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
round one complete

Test #1 of the 1100mAh OEM which I started after putting the new battery straight into the phone and charging it with the phone on until it hit green yielded these results:

Started at 4.13V, it cut off 3:21:28 later at 3.5V with a 300mA current, clocked in at 1007mAh, or 92% of its rated capacity.

I'll run another test or two and post an overlayed chart.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
That's actually really good. Only going down to 3.4V would get very close to 100%. I know you're testing to phone cutoff, but at 3.0 or 3.1V it should exceed rated capacity.

At 3.5V a "Good" battery should be at 85-90% of rated capacity. "Excellent" would be anything over 90% with "Cheap/Relabeled/Used" being under 85%.

Do you agree Telek?
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
Firstly once the batteries hit 3.6V they start to nose dive and I'm not so sure a fresh OEM would hit 100% by 3.4V. Regardless, the data I at least am interested is how the numbers look in terms of their relevance to the real world, what performance people would get if they used their phone at an average of X or Y milliamps. I want their to be a greater appearance of integrity in the testing so by using the cutoffs for charging and powering off that match the phones, that appears to be an easy call to me. What would make this better in terms of that and in terms of getting closer to 100% is testing with a more typical current, like 200 or less. But that becomes a pain in the ass, an overnight job, and not entirely worth it if it just buys another 30mAh (and since it would be easy to extrapolate from a 700mA test).

Next up is a 250mA test of the 1100mA, starting right about ... now.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
I agree :)

I still think that we should be using the same mA currents as we used on the higher capacity battery.

Maybe at a later point do a low current test to see how the numbers vary which would allow us to extrapolate on other batteries without having to repeat the tests.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
OEM clocks in 97% of claimed capacity at 250mA.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
Good enough.

I think the above test on an OEM rated at 1100mAh and clocking in on our testing laboratory at 1062mAh, 97%, on a current that's about triple what the average user burns on average give or take, has established the standard by which to compare all third party batteries. I could run it at 100mAh and possibly get 100% if not more but I don't want every test, and I will be running more than one per battery, to take all day. So no more need to screw around with OEMs. Now it's time to switch gears to collecting more third party batteries.

I'll start by approaching the Andida guy to give him a chance to redeem himself. If he's not interested I'll buy another, it was pretty cheap. Then Seido and Mugen somehow. Also need to turn batteryboss.org into something, that would help. Right now I just have it load this thread with an iframe tag.

Okay I'm psyched again. Time to edit the first posts.

Thanks for your patience guys.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
Three Andida 2000mAh, OEM 1500mAh tests complete. One remaining for OEM 1100mAh.

Conducted three discharges at a 250mA current from 4.14V to 3.50V, the phone's two cutoffs for charging and shutting off respectively, for an Andida battery rated at 2000mAh, a used 1500mAh OEM and a fresh 1100mAh OEM.

For the new OEM that AT&T gave me in the beginning of February rated at 1100mAh:

Test #1: 1062mAh on Feb 9th

Test #2: 1058mAh on Feb 11th

Test #3: 1043mAh on Feb 17th

Average: 1054mAh or 96% of capacity claim.

For the OEM that HTC includes and used heavily as my primary battery since October, rated at 1500mAh:

Test #1: 1313mAh on Jan 23rd

Test #2: 1311mAh on Feb 10th

Test #3: 1299mAh on Feb 11th

Average: 1307mAh or 87% of capacity claim.

For the Andida from eBay used lightly as my backup since November rated at 2000mAh:

Test #1: 1209mAh on Jan 22nd

Test #2: 1196mAh on Feb 10th

Test #3: 1189mAh on Feb 11th

Average: 1198mAh or 60% of capacity claim.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] RebelShadow:
Are you planning on testing the Mugan 1800Mha?
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
Telek and I just ordered six more batteries, all with normal capacity claims except for a 3600mAh but it's not Mugen. Not quite in the budget yet and need to build up the test results table with more modestly-priced batteries in hopes that people will get psyched up about this and start buying batteries but shipping them to me to test them first after which I'd send it to them. Feel free to fall under that category, Mugen's got a good reputation.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] tobbbie:
I have put a little effort in a method that can be used by anyone - so no special devices required. It should still deliver comparable data. Basically the device itself is load and taking data itself. See here: http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=5686305#post5686305

If you know the drain (from measuring or the driver) you can also calculate the capacity.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
updated, Mugen 1800mAh testing complete.

Okay I just finished jcr916's new Mugen 1800mAh he had shipped to me. I had high expectations because Mugen batteries are expensive and the company has a strong reputation but the battery clocked in consistently at 1414mAh, 79% of its claimed capacity, making it the most expensive battery per amp hour. In its defense, perhaps some benefit of the doubt should be afforded to this battery's longevity. Maybe four months from now jcr916 will mail it to me again to see how it has stood up. For the hell of it I think I'll run one test at 150mA, stopping the test if interrupted by the Seidio arriving today or if the chart's path is following the 250mA paths very evenly. Cool, now we've got four batteries, two of which were brand new.

The Mugen did however deliver the best performance of all the batteries I've tested so far just in terms of actual mAh, about 8% more than the six month used 1500mAh OEM.

Here's the graph.

Next up will be a Seidio courtsey of jasonweaver which is en route.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] anit77:
WOW! I'm shocked. :eek: I figured it'd at least make it to 1700. I don't think you'll see much, if any, difference at 150. jcr916 should definitely contact Mugen and see what they have to say.

I'm sure hoping I made the right choice going with the Seidio...
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
I ran it at 150 and got only a nominal difference. Seems 250 is in fact the sweet spot for our needs.

I ran one test overnight of the Seidio 1750 which had been used on and off for two months, 1398mAh. I'm not sure but I don't think I discharged it first, just filled it up from where it was, half way, so maybe it will do a little better on the next run. And now I'm a few hours into a dry run of the first no name, 1500, the one that came with two batteries and a charger (which I'm not going to use to charge any batteries, only charging with the phone and the OEM charger) for under $14 which included shipping, or $6.90 per battery. It came partially charged so I just filled up the rest of the tank without discharging. Still, judging by the chart so far it's a safe bet this battery is appropriately priced. Yikes. Again though, dry run.

I'm looking forward to getting that 1500 OEM because of how well the 1100 OEM performed. If that 1500 gets anywhere near 1440 (96% like the 1100), outperforming the Mugen, yeah, money back is especially warranted. Not inconceivable given that my own six month old OEM got 87% of its claimed capacity. But right now the Mugen does have the highest capacity score, in its defense -- but it ain't no 1800, that's for sure. I'm disappointed.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] jcr916:
I am disappointed and contacting Mugen to see what they have to say. Doug, can you hold on to the battery for a bit and possibly send back to Mugen if I set that up?

Update: Contacted Mugen and they have already responded, they asked how it was tested and what not so I pointed them to batteryboss.org. I'll keep everyone updated as to what they reply, but pretty much right now they want to forward the testing information to their engineering department.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
You got it, I'll hang onto it. On the 150mA test it clocked in at 1423mAh.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
Posted the Seidio 1750mAh, average was 1383mAh. Mailing it today, sitting on the Mugen until advised.

Reworded the table's columns and the first two posts a little to fit more with the approach, the appearance rather that we should be presenting that Telek suggested (just clocking capacity, don't want to hurt anyone's feelings).
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
Cool - looks like things are coming along nicely!
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
no name #1 done

Finished the first no name which averaged 82% of its 1500mAh claimed capacity. The cost was $13.79 for two of these and a wall/USB out charger so to value each amp hour, dividing that by two, you get $6.90, so this battery, if you're willing to buy two, is the cheapest in terms of capacity on the dollar at $5.58/Ah. Right now I'm charging it with the phone on through USB to see if the test yields different results doing it this way versus charging with the HTC wall charger with the phone off.

Still waiting on a bunch of batteries Telek and I bought on ebay. If someone would kindly buy another $10 Andida for me, then we can get an idea of that battery's longevity as I tested it after it had aged four months (light use) which we could compare to the original 1500mAh OEM when we get our hands on one as I only have data for a smaller capacity OEM and the original 1500 after six months of regular use. If the 1100 OEM is any indication of the 1500's claimed versus tested capacity, that makes it even clearer that the OEM battery is rated the way it should be rated and that it's fair to apply the same expectations when judging the discrepancy of claimed versus tested capacities of third party batteries.

I'd bet green money that the new OEM 2150 with a door, AT&T, gets impressive results which would show a nice contrast against the Mugen and Seidio. As no one's racing to buy one for the cause, I just wrote the ebay dealer a plea.

Jason, dropped yours in the mail last night but not charged, figured you'd want the thing asap more than you'd want it an extra day late but fully charged. Jeremy, hanging onto your Mugen until you give me further instructions. I credited you two on the table with your names instead of XDA handles -- is that okay?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to post the table into XDA with html or whatever would work instead of having to hotlink a screen capture of the web page. Otherwise people can't click the links.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
Looking good! I wouldn't worry about posting all the results here - just give an overview and link people to your site. Not a lot of good options for formatting on these forums with links. You're pretty much stuck with the list option with embedded links. No tables.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] d0ugie:
USB myth debunked.

I've heard people warn or claim that charging via USB produces a charge that lasts shorter than a wall outlet charge. Yes USB charges slower; however I tested a battery twice, first with a wall outlet charge with the HTC charger with the phone off and then a second test with a USB charge with the phone on and with regular use and the discharge tests were identical.

So at least on a lithium ion battery, making that light go green which happens at 4.14 volts, no matter how you do it, yields the same performance. In case anyone was wondering.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] wpbear:
The thing I noticed is that charging with a non-OEM charger with device off it may not charge any battery (I have stock and andia) past 70ish% but if I leave the phone on the non-oem charger will charge 100%. I also have two different non-oem chargers so it is not the charger either.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] Telek:
As long as the charger can provide 5V at 500mA then it will charge to completion. I've used several different chargers on my phone from car ones to random old chargers that you plug into the wall and gives a USB jack and they've all worked to charge to 100%. What chargers specifically have you used that don't charge past 70%?

The one thing that I did notice, however, is that while tethering if the screen is left on then the discharge rate is greater than the phone can charge via USB so the battery will actually lose about 10%/hour of it's charge. However that's only because the current draw is greater than USB can provide.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] ronaldphl:
Thanks for this great post and test... it's really informative and has answered the question I have: Why are those Mah markings varies from brand to brand with batteries which have more or less similar physical size and form factor... I always doubt if it's possible to have a higher capacity battery with the same physical size.. and your post has rightly explained that all..

Last weekend, I have spent a day for a mesmerizing walk in the heaven of mobile gadget, Shenzhen (China), where you can find ALL SORTS of accessories, parts, housing, ICs, motherboards... anything you can name it for a phone... from local brands to Nokia...

Hoping to gear up my newfound love - TP2 - with batteries, extended batteries, extra chargers, a new housing (for changing mine in case if it gets ugly), cases, converters, chords or cables... blah blah blah...

I have asked many shops about batteries for TP2 and they varies from 1000mah to 1800mah. I have ignored those claimed to be ORIGINAL HTC products which stated they had 1200mah.. some renowned brands (i.e. SCUD - one of the largest battery manufacturer in the world) claimed 1180mah.. I regarded that was the most honest claim around.

As I didn't believe the difference in Mah can be THAT much ( I guess most of them carry 1200-1300mah at most ), I finally picked the cheapest, and coincidently the one has highest mah, brand and bought 3 regular size batteries. It said 1800mah on the outside and it costs only RMB35 each (around USD4.5). A real bargain indeed. And with this amazing price, I can comfortably forget about the Mah as long as it functions properly. (I never recharge batteries with the phone... I have cradles, third party chargers and universal chargers that can charge them. When they went out of juice, I simply replace it with those charged.) The only safety hazard, I reckon, is the possibility of overcharging it and starting a catastrophic fire. That's why I charge batteries with delicated charger and away from anything that catch fire easily.

I would love to send one of them to you to test but the shipping is prohibitively high... and the outcome is rather expected, can't be anything around 1800mah but 1200mah at most. I do have another battery which claims to have higher capacity and sells for a premium... MOMAX x-level battery (it saids 1500mah) (http://www.momax.net/en/Product_Show.aspx?ID=558&T=1).. it costs HKD150 (around USD19)..

With normal usage, they last more or less the same.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] tobbbie:
Why not test it yourself - anyone can do it with his own device, look at my post 111 in this thread:

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=5686353&postcount=111
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] wpbear:
One is a Versa Pro Boxwave http://www.boxwave.com/products/categories/versacharger.htm and the other is a cheapo Chinese. But both work flawless on the Kaiser in any configuration. So the phone is funky, I tried two rhodiums so it must be a design issue in the phones.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] jcr916:
Mugen

So this is the response I was given from a representative at Mugen, kind of interested to see if testing it this way does make a difference.
[Touch Pro2, Tilt 2 Accessories] jcr916:
Battery claims

I'm now wondering if the batteries are tested this way with 3rd party manufacturers, and OEM battery manufacturers test the battery claim against the phone itself. If they test the battery below 3.5v that could explain some of the extra juice they are claiming and why the OEM batteries do better in the tests than the 3rd party ones do.

Update: Got a response back

Thanks for doing all these tests Doug, and I swear I am not trying to steal the thread lol... I just find this interesting and am now wondering what (if anything) Seidio has to say. And I think that they don't stop the tests at the 3.5v cutoff... well at least according to "industry accepted methods." Oh and I have no idea why he thinks I am doing the tests since you are, lol.