yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
I do it just fine, in Word, Opera and elsewhere.

Nah, thanks. The OS I'm using is OK in terms of using it without the stylus, I'm sure that capacitive screen will not deteriorate anything (unless HTC mucks up with drivers, that is), judging but tapping tiny items on the iPhone. Sure it can get much better but there are other reasons why I prefer to keep using WM for now. I also suspect that capacitive screen will in fact boost accuracy when using fingers for one simple reason - when you press a resistive screen with your finger you don't know which exact pixel will be triggered, so it's sometimes tricky to get where you need to get. Because on capacitive touchscreens your finger activates an area it's way more predictable. That's what happens on the iPhone at least. And that area isn't all that huge, so for most real-life applications the accuracy is just sufficient enough. So I'd suggest that you try it first before complaining like it's the end of the world.

I was actually quite happy with resistive screen on Touch HD, so I don't think that switching to capacitive is all that groundbreaking. Except for one thing - possibility to use glass as the surface. That is something that will benefit most users, and having a few stylus fans disappointed is not that big of a deal. Especially given that the reasonable ones will get over it and see themselves that life's not all dark.
[HD2 General] Moandal:
It's possible - I didn't suggest it wasn't. But anyone who thinks they can select text with their finger with the same speed and accuracy as a stylus is only fooling themselves.

Your suggestion that a capacitive screen is somehow more accurate than a resistive one is pure fantasy and just wishful thinking, I'm afraid. You were scornful of speculation previously, yet it is you that is speculating here. ("I also suspect that....")
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
I've been using WM devices exclusively for some 5 years now, with and without stylus, so I know what's comfortable for me and what isn't. Speed? I do it faster without the stylus because I don't need to pull it out first. Accuracy? It's enough to tap spaces between words and select sentences; if I need to set the cursor inside a word and miss, I quickly move it one or two positions with the keyboard arrows. Maybe the stylus would save me like 20 seconds a year.

Actually, I'm not scornful of speculation at all. What bugs me is that conclusions about device usability are drawn from speculation, and blown out of proportion to the scale of people whining everywhere that the device will be unusable. In addition to that, I said that I suspected that real-life accuracy might actually increase based on my actual use of the iPhone where the capacitive screen helps, not hinders my ability to make accurate taps. If HTC do the drivers right I don't see why it shouldn't happen to the Leo. Note that I didn't stretch this speculation to singing Hallelujah about capacitive screens and didn't even say I was sure that'll be the case. That's the difference.
[HD2 General] mr_Ray:
Of course, we're all aware that the only thing anyone ever does with their phone is select text in word. For the minority of us who ever do anything apart from selecting text in word though, we should be able to get by with a capacitive screen.

You know what is slow though? Pulling a stylus out and putting it back every few minutes. And scrabbling around looking for it when it gets mislaid.

If you're in the 99.9% of the population who buys a phone so you can select text in word all day, this phone is obviously not for you. That's ok though, there are many other phones to buy, you should get one of those. :)
[HD2 General] bumskee:
I guess I would be 0.1% who requires a stylus.. planning on doing drawing/painting on the HD2.. and no I haven't tried using fingers and prolly won't work well as it would put lots of stress on my finger(s)..

So is this patent HTC stylus coming out anytime soon? or will I have to settle for an iphone stylus? will that even work?
[HD2 General] Gajet:
There are plenty of stylus's (Styli?) available now for next to nothing that will work just fine. This whole subject is whining for the sake of it.
[HD2 General] Jerseyman:
You're missing the point Gajet. Normal Stylii will not work with the Leo.

(and expressing a view or concern isn't whining)
[HD2 General] THE GRIZZ:
one other concern is that some are failing to see. is that the finger friendliness on previous resistive devices worked well enough because so many "pecked" the screen with their nail(which is far more accurate than using your finger tips to touch the screen) this will no longer be possible with a capacitive screens.

the gigantic 4.3" screen will probably make it "acceptable" to depend on your fingers only on most wm applications . but make no mistake about it, HTC will either have to make use of their capacitive stylus patent on their future more business oriented phones with smaller screens like the TD3 and TP3 or just stick to resistive screens
[HD2 General] Gajet:
No you're missing the point. You can buy stylii for capacitive screens. Therefore those who are desperate to use a stylus can and those who don't want to don't have to. So yes it is whining when all options are available for all sides and yet people still want to complain.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-CAPACITIV...vr_id=&cguid=55d7708a1220a0e202029df2ff3bcb9d

£2 whole pounds for a stylus I suppose will be the next complaint. Why isn't there one free in the box!!!! Also the whole debate is conveniently forgetting the ability to pinch zoom in on text to make selection by fingers easier.
[HD2 General] Shasarak:
It remains to be seen how many applications actually support pinch-zooming. My guess is not many, and none that aren't already installed on the phone when you buy it.
[HD2 General] Moandal:
Ah - so you select quickly because you just select roughly what you want rather than what you actually want - I see! Also I take the stylus out as I switch on the phone, so your fat finger saves you nothing there.

If you think text selection is the only issue and something you do rarely, I notice that winmo.nl reckon the capacitive screen makes using the virtual keyboard significantly slower. See here: http://htcpedia.com/news/htc-hd2-review-spotted.html?l_page=1&p_page=1

Not according to the review above and their experience with the keyboard. And they've actually tried it, so speculate no more my friend. ;)
[HD2 General] manoli20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW2jeSKfCMs

video showing the on screen keyboard in landscape
[HD2 General] Moandal:
A stylus that's separate from the phone is no use at all. It will just get lost/forgotten/left behind. Also I note with interest just how big the tip on one of these things is - it's huge compared to a normal stylus - almost finger sized! Which sort of defeats the purpose, of course.
[HD2 General] Gajet:
I appreciate what you're saying there. However we've seen video of iGo being zoomed in on using pinch, which hasn't been re-written. It appears what HTC have done is when applications are not written to support pinch directly then you can zoom into the screen to emulate it. However of course this does mean the UI zooms off the displayed are as we saw with igo. That would however be adequate for fine selection.

Of course we need to see the final ROM running on a retail device to know 100% for sure.
[HD2 General] Gajet:
Wait so these people who need to so regularly edit word documents, don't carry pens as routine? and carrying the extra stylus is too much? They have the mental capacity to use a smartphone but not loosing something is beyond them. And 0.6 cm at their biggest point (the barrel) is almost finger sized? That's some tiny fingers.

Anyway so you've made up your mind, get a different device, it's no obligation to buy this one. That leaves plenty for those who don't spend their time catastrophising.
[HD2 General] mr_Ray:
On the day that the first colour TV was sold, there were very few colour broadcasts. Obviously colour TV has been an utter failure, which is why we all stuck with black & white instead.

Oh wait...
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
First of all, there are other reviews that second my experience with capacitive screen:

Second, I know from my own experience that it always takes time to adjust from one type of screen to another, and when I take the iPhone I miss all the time for the first several minutes. That happens because I try to use fingertips and be very precise instead of just tapping. Wrong tactic, simple as that. Being precise on capacitive requires different movements.
[HD2 General] Shasarak:
Wow, that should probably win some kind of award for the most bizarrely inappropriate analogy in the entire history of Internet posts. :eek:

If it'll help you to understand it, let me try and illustrate the situation we're actually in, in terms of colour TV.

Someone invents colour TV broadcasts, and colour TV gets off the ground. A little later someone else invents a completely different way of broadcasting colour TV signals that is incompatible with the established system - it needs new cameras, new studios, and a new type of TV transmitter. They don't make any cameras or studios or transmitters; instead, they just make TVs capable of receiving this new type of non-existent colour broadcast. With each TV they ship a special type of VCR which plays a special type of tape, and they give you one sample tape; that VCR playing that sample tape can make the TV show a colour picture; otherwise, it will only pick up a broadcast black and white signal and nothing else.

Now, if lots of these TVs sell, you might think that someone else could come along and spot a market opportunity: if they make the cameras and studios and transmitters, or even if they just make more of the special video tapes, they could play back colour programmes on the new TVs. The problem is that the company which made the TVs refuses to tell anyone else how their TVs work. When anyone asks how to make programmes that can be shown in colour on the new TVs, the TV maker refuses to answer. They have no intention of ever making any more tapes that can play in colour on their TVs, but they're still not going to tell anyone else how to do it. All they care about is selling TVs to people and being able to claim (in a way that is true enough not to get them into legal trouble) that the TV can show colour programmes.

That's the situation we find ourselves in with pinch-zoom on HTC phones. HTC flatly refuses to release any kind of SDK for the phone (unlike, say, Samsung, who offer a lot of help to independent developers who want to develop software for their phones). So, although HTC's own software can make use of the pinch-zoom feature, no one else is given enough information to be able to make their software use that feature, and HTC refuses to release the information on how to do it.
[HD2 General] Moandal:
Oh dear Mr Gajet, your suggestion that anyone who thinks lack of stylus is an issue shouldn't post here shows you're losing the arguement, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to silence those with an opposing view.

You're right of course about there being no excuse for not having a capacitive stylus with me at all times. Silly me - that's why I've got two ears. One to hold a normal pen and one for the capacitive stylus. ;)

As for the size of the stylus, here's something for you to try. Put some ink on your finger, and lightly touch some paper. Now measure the size of the imprint. With my normal adult finger it's about 0.5 cm. Point proven.
[HD2 General] Moandal:
Two thoughts on that:

1) A blog on the website of a company that is selling the HD2 can't really be described as an impartial review.

2) When it says "The HD2 however is he first device I have used, other than the iPhone where the fat finger/full finger tip actually works better than using the very tip/nail of a finger" I'm not in the least surprised, since the nail of a finger won't work at all on the HD2 or the iPhone. So I would say it's not actually contradicting anything in the review I linked to.

I know that on the HD I make far more mistakes on the virtual keyboard if I try to use my finger, even if I slow it right down. The larger HD2 screen will probably make finger use a bit more accurate, but there's still no way it will be as fast and accurate as a stylus. Apple knew that when they went to such trouble to implement very effective error correction software for their keyboard.
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
That's why I said that the review seconds my personal experience.

Anyway, I give up. You are right, it's the end of the world as we know it, life will never be the same without the stylus, let's whine till eternity about it.
[HD2 General] aiwama:
Absolutely! There are hundreds of mobile phones in the market and none of them is perfect. I, for once, will give up using mobiles. Is there any point crying about the "stylusless" HD2!? Do you really need a stylus? Go and get a mobile with a stylus, then! The HD2 does not and will not have one! Move on, people :mad:
[HD2 General] Moandal:
But that's the whole point of this thread and why it was started. So that people will realise that for some the lack of a stylus will be an issue for a WM phone, and so they should indeed move on and get some other phone.

Here's another independent review that raises the issue: (Google translation so excluse the English):

"Unfortunately it is this theme that we find the most obvious and annoying limitation of the system when the user enters in the Advanced settings are sometimes found to have to deal with menus and buttons that even the advanced UI, HTC has still not managed to revolutionize and with which it is really difficult to prevail if they are interacting with your fingers and not a stylus (top screenshot of one example). This, in a capacitive display device where the stylus is not working, is a very significant limitation."

http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhjUY4LpXsUamj99wJTwFvQELURs0A
[HD2 General] martoto:
I think this will be sorted out with the WM 6.5.1 (I wonder if there will be official upgrade?). Still, remains the huge amount of good old software, that won't be fully useable. Also, currently we have a lack of substitutes, developed only for finger touch experience. And of course some features are completely gone (as handwriting recognising and drawing). Despite all disadvantages of using capacitive screen, I do not see any other more tempting device. In my opinion anything than Snapdragon is a step backwards and currently we have only 3 devices to chose, and only one from HTC.
[HD2 General] Photopuppet:
This is more of a practical point in my every day use of the phone...

I have a Touch Pro 2 now and very thankful I have a stylus as the glues and other compounds I come into contact with at work can leave my fingers greasy or with something that I wouldn't want to get on the screen... so I can give my hands a quick wipe and whip out the stylus to look something up without turning the screen into a smeary mess. ;)

I think the argument for or against styli is a silly one because both have advantages depending on the situation in which you use your device...

Just my quick thought.
[HD2 General] martoto:
Finally one real HD2 video. I have bored watching how graceful is the TouchFlo/Sence and no word how is it in the real WM environment. Now I hope everyone shall see the point of this topic.
[HD2 General] 1autrefred:
hello!

new on this forum, excuse my english, read a lot of interesting things on this forum.

Very interested in HTC HD2, but i have few questions, in relations with the lack of stylus, Dpad, and presence of capacitive screen.

I have some apps on WM5 on my VERY OLD fujitsu N560, and, if i switch to HD2, i would like to reuse them (ie using a PDA for business, if they don't work, or if there are no alternative, i just have to throw it to the rubbish).

For exemple, would agenda fusion work great?

(or, if it does not, is there a "hourly day" wiew in the standard calendar? (that is to say one day wiew, with all the hours displayed? even if there is no appointement, showing free time to schedule one?)

Tomtom navigator is working? (have read "yes" somewhere, more infos?)

don't have a WM phone (N560 is not a phone, but a pDA) so i don't know how it's working, but i have a very useful app on my nokia N95 who reject calls in function of the number: exemple, if +33123456789 call me, it detect the caller in a pre made "black list" and throw it away to the call box without ringing, or, if someone is not on a premade "white list" etc.... Some programs are available for that?

(partially out of topic about lack of stylus, sorry, move my post if you think it's better)

Thanks for futur answers!
[HD2 General] Gajet:
I don't want to labour a point, as I'm completely able to accept that for some people the lack of a stylus is a big issue. However in that video he makes no attempt to pinch zoom on the small elements, even in Pocket informant which we have seen in other videos working with pinch zoom. Now I havent seen a video showing that pinch zooming will work on that deep settings page that has no relevance to day to day useage. However I have some reasons to believe it might.

To continue on this threads theme of dodgy analogies it's like refussing to use the steering wheel and complaining your car doesn't turn corners.
[HD2 General] Gajet:
We've seen videos of Pocket Informant and iGo working just fine, so it's safe to assume that Agenda Fusion and Tomtom will also be fine. As for call filtering check out spb Phone suite
[HD2 General] 10076757:
if you do need a stylus just go and buy a pogo stylus
[HD2 General] Moandal:
Dodgy analogies are such fun! However I don't think yours works because no-one's refusing to use their fingers. It's just that in some situations with WM, fingers are not the best tool.

So here's my dodgy car based analogy.

On the "resistive" car you have a steering wheel that you can turn with your hands or your teeth. You can turn the wheel quicker and more accurately with your hands, but some prefer to use their teeth because to them the advantage of having your hands free is worth the clumsiness. Still you have a choice so everyone's happy.

On the "capacitive" car, you have a nicer shinier wheel with better power steering, so it looks lovely and is a bit easier to use with your teeth, but on this car you can only use your teeth - hands are not an option. (Don't ask why - I haven't managed to fit that in to the analogy). Those who like to have their hands free are happier, but those who prefer speed and accuracy are stuffed.

Guess which car I'd rather drive. :)

By the way, editing the above in nice small text on my HD was a doddle with a stylus.
[HD2 General] Gajet:
Great analogy! I think we're getting closer. In my view you are used to power steering. You can steer easily with fine movements. The HD2 is a classic car without power-steering, it still goes round the corner but you have to turn the wheel more. However in the HD2's case you can stretch the wheel bigger so that smaller movements can be enhanced.

So text selection will be possible, but you may need to zoom into the screen sometimes for accuracy. Same goes for those menu's in the video, sure if your going to do it like that it's not good, but just zoom the screen and fiddly small things become big easy to tap things.

However in the other thread, the engineer who needs to make sketches is probably pretty screwed by the whole non-stylus issue unless HTC release this patented capactive stylus with equal accuracy to it's resistive cousins.

(EDIT) saying that I've just played with a couple of apps on an iPhone that are made specifically for this, one allows you to write big on the screen and then shrinks it down for reading that was simple for making notes, bullet points lists etc. The second sketching app wasn't impossible to use, but I wouldn't want to do anything too detailed on it.
[HD2 General] 1autrefred:
Thank you very much for the answer. :)

Errffff..... I will have to buy one, then.....
[HD2 General] rolandroland:
stylus not a big deal

I have had my Imagio for a month and have not used the stylus once and I am a heavy business user. I can only imagine with an even bigger screen the stylus will be an after thought. So I can't see why anyone would knock it without trying it, especially once 6.5.1 is out in which case all the menus will be finger friendly.

Being in IT I find most of these issues are due to retraining. Most users don't like to relearn how to do something, even if it is more efficient. Especially the ones still using a rolodex.
[HD2 General] Shasarak:
There is no guarantee whatever that HTC will offer an upgrade to 6.5.1. Those willing to flash "cooked" ROMs can work around that, but not everyone is happy with the consequent bugs and stability issues.
[HD2 General] colasmar:
Stylus : problem or not ?

It's depend of your use.

for me it's a problem. The "sense" interface is perfect to do all with your finger... except handwriting.

I was using calligrapher for take notes in meeting and it's not possible with a virtual keyboard (it's just enought to write a SMS).

Yesterday I tried a capacitive Stylus but I didn't obtain a good result... If you make a test I will be interest.
[G1 Apps and Games] Meltus:
For those of you who are familiar with my Volume Hack app on the market place, here is a version that does exactly the same thing, and a bit more, but it runs off your desktop.

Knocked up quickly in VB, so it's a bit sketchy atm, but there's many updates planned!

Unzip the files anywhere (if you have ADB set up to run from anywhere, otherwise put it in 'androidSDK/tools') and run the app. The files are neccessary and i've left them open so people can alter them and add in custom ones, etc.

If you are unsure of anything, check out this thread - http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=517745

Yes it's fairly pointless, but if you're like me and hate typing out ADB commands all the time, this may be of some use to you.

Enjoy! :D

Please post any bugs you find, there will probably be a few.
[G1 Apps and Games] Mikey:
I love desktop apps over "manually" typing commands :)

Thanks bud
[G1 Apps and Games] Fingerlickin:
hmmmm interesting. I just started a VB program today that uses adb to list installed apps including bundled apps like amazon. You can then uninstall them and even browse your harddrive for an apk file that you want to install. Now I'm starting on a utility menu to do stuff like clear dalvik, flash a recovery image, reboot, ect. I'll be posting it next week as my weekend is full already. Then maybe we can get our source codes together and combine them.
[G1 Apps and Games] Meltus:
I'll gladly release the source for anyone to use, it's nothing exciting, just buttons that run shell scripts. but yeah, i'll upload it soon so then you can do what you want with it :)
[G1 Apps and Games] Fingerlickin:
should probably add a function to check adb and to check for an adb device when the program loads. "adb devices" will return "List of devices attached" then on the next line the device.
[G1 Apps and Games] xidominicanoix:
nice one Meltus :) ... im assuming these are all the generation 7 files?
[G1 Apps and Games] htcmagic:
I have checked it , chose ver 3 files, and worked fine. Louder volume can be heard from phone.
[G1 Apps and Games] Meltus:
yep :)

Gonna add options for all the old files too, just incase people prefer those.

Working on my market app atm so updates will come soon!
[G1 Q&A, Help & Troubleshooting] skrap1r0n:
I am trying to restore my phone to the factory Settings. I am currently running CM 4.0.1

I am trying to restore to RC29. I have unzipped to my SD. but when I hold Camera and power, I receive a rainbow colored screen with info on it, but no options to restore to RC29.

Any Ideas what I am doing wrong here?