yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[G1 Android Development] tnleeuw:
A tizy over nothing? Sorry but I beg to differ!

Google must have been aware of these practices for a long time already, and they could have warned the community a long time ago that, unlike HTC / MS, they will not permit this.

When they finally decided to act against by-then established community practice, they could have send out a public notice to everyone, asking the community as a whole to stop. And make sure that they were heard, and explaining their motives.

No, instead they barged in like bulldozers, grabbed the most popular guy in the room, pummeled him, held him up by his collar, and threatened to beat him up REAL GOOD if he wouldn't obey and listen.

Instead of realizing that there's a devoted community of enthusiastic Android preachers, who would be willing to find a way out to everyones good, they choose to take the hard line, crush the opposition, set the lawyer-dogs on one of the community foremen, and refuse to talk. (Talking here about how Google acted as a company. I know that there are Googlers out there who are unhappy with the situation created, such as JB Queru).

Cyanogen has always, and publicly, been against warez but he has in good faith been doing what was established community practice, and what seemed to have been at least tolerated by Google.

So I don't know what changed their Googly minds to make them intolerant to their own community, but getting all worked up over nothing? No, I disagree. They could have talked to the community and treated us with some respect, instead of bullying without warning. That's the very least. And the method chosen by Google is at least as upsetting, I think, as the fact that they restrict us in the way that we can play with their goodies.

Kind Regards,

--Tim
[G1 Android Development] vixsandlee:
To be honest I would only miss the contacts sync.

Other than that I will just stick with the bare bones mod.
[G1 Android Development] tnleeuw:
Fully agree with you, specifically on the points I quoted here! There should have been other ways for Google to handle this, and other ways out such as in the ways of licensing!

I see this as a lose-lose-lose situation.

A loss for Cyanogen, CyanogenMod users, and the XDA-Developers community.

A loss for Google, who lost a lot of goodwill, tarnished their reputation (having already been criticized for what seems to be the only partly openness of Android and AOSP always lagging behind the REAL Android development), and who potentially lost a number of Android developer / supporters

A loss for the wider Android community as a whole.

Kind Regards,

--Tim
[G1 Android Development] ytj87:
Wouldn't it be sweet justice if, over time, the community becomes bigger than Goog? In terms of the market and Android itself.

GOOG! You have no idea how your move has fundamentally altered the way we view you and Android.
[G1 Android Development] AndroidFiend:
dammit google just gave a major low blow to Android devs
[G1 Android Development] antirock:
I for one cannot wait until my contract is up so I can get a blackberry tour or an iPhone.

Yes, I realize that these systems are more closed than Android. But Android was borderline unusable before I started using Cyan ROMs. It was so sluggish, I couldn't store apps to the sd card, and I couldn't change the look of my phone through themes whenever I wanted. Lets face it, Google's android build is ugly.

The iPhone and Blackberry do everything that Android does better. The iPhone may be closed but at lease the apps that you download have a tendency to be quality apps that integrate into the iPhone OS and UI well.

Even though Cyan has appeared to come up with a fix for this, it still doesn't change the fact that this sucks. I don't want to have to use 3rd party apps for basic functionality like email, browser, and gtalk. I like the google apps!

Anyways, this was my first and last journey into android. I hope that Google hears the protest from the dev community

Thank you Cyan and all the other devs and theme devs for your continued contribution!
[G1 Android Development] IConrad01:
Okay -- seriously -- you folks talking about going to an iPhone due to Google's closing things down really need to familiarize yourself with the n900. It comes with root. Physical keyboard (three-row qwerty). 32 GB internal flash, with a MicroSD card port. 600 MHz ARM 8 processor. 256 MB RAM, with built in 768 MB swap. Maemo uses Gtk.

It comes with root. If no Android phone picks up better than this thing's standards when my contract is up, I'm definitely getting one of these.
[G1 Android Development] prettyboy85712:
The downside is the price.
[G1 Android Development] roadrunnerx7:
count me in on that too! that thing is amazing!! is there a lot of developers for it though? tho im not sure what more they can develop, it already looking awesome
[G1 Android Development] nickmgray:
i hate to break it to you, but the way Google handled the situation is the same way they would handle any legal situation. Why should they treat a community of developers/hackers any different than anyone else. A C&D letter is not a bullying tactic. It's simply an official letter fromthe company stating that what you are doing violates their rights in some way. A C&D is a lot better than getting a notice to appear in court and have your lawyer ready, which Google has every right to do.

I'm tired to people painting Google a a big bad guy who's just out to get you. they are simply trying to protect what it theirs.
[G1 Android Development] Deathwish238:
Exactly. It's standard business practice. From an Economics stand point, this is better for Google and us! If Google doesn't have incentives to make apps...they'll stop developing for Android. It really just means more work for us for a little while.

Oh come on, Android is not unusable stock. It's not blazing fast...but it's not slow either. The iPhone lacks many basic features stock too...why else do so many need to jailbreak them? Other than warez that is.

You all expect miracles...Android is still less than a year old. The first iPhone didn't even have 3g and it took 2.5 years to get video recording.

K-9 is just fine for Gmail. The stock browser is free to distribute. The Gtalk app sucks, Meebo is so much better.
[G1 Android Development] Deathwish238:
Why would you unroot your phone? I didn't unroot my phone to get cupcake...hell I rooted my phone specifically for cupcake and haven't been unrooted since. Running Donut now of course...no need to unroot. Funny that you talk of newbie questions :p
[G1 Android Development] iznasty:
For that 649.00 Preorder price tag you can't compare the two, Nice but slightly over my budget.
[G1 Android Development] IConrad01:
The price is a bit of a *****, but... why switch /now/ if you've already got a working device? Just keep what you've got... and wait out for your contracts to expire. That's my opinion anyhow. Also, fail on me for not seeing the pricetag. :/
[G1 Android Development] johanbart:
Hmmm i have 3 points...comparing apples Iphone, to for most of us HTC DREAM /G1 isnt completely fair, we talking apples flagship model, and HTC's entry level phone...if you want an i phone, go get one but shut up about it...as for MAEMO and nokia n900 , MAEMO didnt get the google boost android had, so less people jumped on the bandwagon, so there are less developers working on apps for it........now on to Android AOSP google and HTC ..As far as i understand, Steve (Cyanogen) and many others like him, had some problems deterring what was under the AOSP license and what not...as a software engineer, he is very well aware of intellectual property rights, i mean he needs to get paid too, this is evidence in his refusal to add proprietary HTC objects to his/their ROMS hence we still don't have Flash. His work around, leave googles stuff on phone tru back up, replace everything open source,with cyanogen code, will both satisfy google, Steve and us end-users. The bright light in this is, that slowly clear and workable boundaries are established, we learned this week what we can and cannot do to googles flavor of android, wich might lead to 2 directions. One where ROMS will exist next to proprietary chunks of code...or if we really lucky, a truly community sourced, open android flavor that might not have all the cool google bits but belongs to all of us. Like always there is a choice, shut up and get an i phoney, shut up and donate to cyanogen or your favorite modder, or shut up and write some working code...

Personally i am waiting for a 1000Mhz phone to come out that runs android, to replace my g1, with cyanogen4.1.1.1.1.1. i forgot how many ones

disclaimer: I am very well aware that i speak terrible english, tough luck!

I might offend some people, tough luck
[G1 Android Development] Chahk:
I'm sorry, but that's utter BS. The whole idea behind Android is its open nature. It was sold to us as an open-source device with open-source OS and we were encouraged to tinker with it. Now, all of a sudden, after over a year of the same thing, someone's tinkering doesn't sit well with google corporate. So what do they do - announce that they must protect their property? Closing down the system to a state where it's not usable because someone dared to "distribute" what we already rightfully own is a move worth of Steve Jobs himself.

Google is NOT the "good guy" in this situation. If they truly intended for us to "run with it", they should've released the ENTIRE Android system as open source, including the system apps. Without those apps, the AOSP branch is useless. Unless the devs get together and create replacements for every proprietary app Google is so determined to "protect", Android development is dead in the water.
[G1 Android Development] tdusen:
I'm actually glad this happened. I'm just testing the Android waters coming from a WM Tilt. I have my Calendar and Contacts in Outlook on my local PC. I don't want that stored on Google servers somewhere. I don't use any Google apps,so I'm looking forward to Roms without them.

So now that I've said that, Anybody know a way that I can Sync with my local PC without piping my data through Google? Every sync solution I've found syncs my PC with Google and expects Google to do the rest.
[G1 Android Development] ravens0ng:
One thing that I think has been overlooked in this, is that Google started Android precisely to get Google apps onto as many devices as possible. I strongly suspect that they will make updates to all of their apps available through the Market and that we will be able to install them onto our bare-bones ROMs. I think that Google IS doing this to say "we will protect our intellectual properties" and set a precedent. As far as the apps themselves, Google has always wanted to hit as wide of a target market as possible, to maximize their advertising revenue. I see no reason why they would change that policy now by putting Mod users in a position to not be able to legally use these apps, that were designed to be used on these specific devices. Only speculation on my part, but thats the way I'm thinking this will play out.
[G1 Android Development] ytj87:
Dow do you get on the market without the Market app?
[G1 Android Development] ytj87:
This is so true. I get the sense now, with Goog's new position, that they'll proceed with Android, but claim increasing bits as their own, leaving the AOSP to lag behind.

When it fit Goog's purpose, they were all for open source and getting a community started. It was the very belief in open source and Good itself that pulled devs in. Now that they have a beachhead in the mobile world, they start to change. Just rotten Goog, just rotten.

There are many devs, beyond xda, who are profoundly unhappy with this new turn. Android development will simply not be the same, in ways most ppl here don't understand. CM is the first casualty, but ultimately the development of Android itself will slow.
[G1 Android Development] Charrion:
The iPhone 3G (3G against 3G) doesn't need to be jailbroken to improve speed and yes, there are a number of apps that just don't work well on the stock Android. Also, the iPhone doesn't need to be jailbroken to install apps in its storage area. A stock G1 runs out of room at about 20 apps. Now, if you want themes and warez, then you do need to jailbreak the iPhone, but you have to root your Android phone for themes too.

I'm not saying the iPhone is a better product, perhaps more polished.

Now one big advantage to Android, we didn't have to wait until Sept 25 for MMS ;)
[G1 Android Development] Charrion:
What he's saying is you would have to unroot to get Donut features like the new Market app which mods are not licensed to distribute. The only way to get it in that case is OTA, the only way to get OTA updates is to unroot.

Will there be an alternative? It's up to Google. Maybe they can make the market app self-updating like SlideMe's SAM2 app. Again, it's up to Google.
[G1 Android Development] slick69:
As somebody who has only been lazily following Android development from afar, this is very bad news. I won't be buying an Android device if this is the position Google is going to take. This is only the first step - and Android is pretty much useless without Google's backing.

It looks like time and again, Windows Mobile is coming around as the most open platform, not just in words but in actions. And I say this not as a fanboy but as an impartial observer who happens to own a TP but loves the iPhone and the Pre.

Google/Android just lost a sale.
[G1 Android Development] MontAlbert:
i wouldn't give up on android. What jbq is doing with AOSP is promising- he just tweeted he has a working phone with just AOSP....

and dont forget about the Open Android Alliance. I presonally think we need to get behind this open android and help all the devleopers there. Now that is extremely promising....
[G1 Android Development] johanbart:
JBQ uploaded his version of AOSP for review on https://review.source.android.com/#change,11992 for those brave enough to build and install
[G1 Android Development] Zoide_:
That's a great question I ask myself! However, this is not the right thread because the topic is totally different. Do let me know if you create a separate thread about that ;)
[G1 Android Development] Zoide_:
Have you guys read the latest stuff from Cyanogen on Twitter? It seems that even if he gets a workaround for the Google apps, there's the issue of drivers:

"We may need an IP lawyer to get involved.

This is about proprietary device drivers and not Google at this point. These drivers are not redistributable."

:mad:

http://twitter.com/cyanogen
[G1 Android Development] Zoide_:
Here are cyanogen's latest updates so far from today (Sept. 28th) on the #cyanogen IRC room. Thanks to Midnigh2ker for compiling it :)

<link to chat taken down by request due to things that could have been taken out of context, etc etc etc>
[G1 Android Development] tnleeuw:
Hi,

This is rather off-topic I think. But I suggest you have a look at NitroDesk's TouchDown for Exchange, which you can install from the Google Market as a trial version. ;-) It does all the complete Exchange sync, without involving Google. (Apart from your Market purchase that is).

I don't know if it's available via other channels as well.

--Tim
[G1 Android Development] halla29:
They said they couldnt wait to see what comes out next....lol

Well the folks at Google did mention that they couldn't wait to see what comes out next and well Cyanogen, after reading what you've posted on here that's exactly what your giving them. Like they say " What don't kill u will only make u stronger". They've awaken the monster in you Cyanogen. Let them know what it means to be a true developer. They tried to put up a road block and all your doing is going around it lol lol lol. I guess it is true about what they say about most legal agreements....is that " Sometimes if you look hard enough you'll always be able to find legal loop holes" and this is just a prime example of that. MAKE AN EXAMPLE OUT OF THEM CYANOGEN. Return a favor ha ha ha ha ha.

P.S. Just like Cyanogen says though u can't blame them.

Long live Cyanogen mods. Thank got for open source.
[G1 Android Development] rich0:
Well, there is an easy workaround for this - quit distributing update.zip's. Just distribute the source and an easy-to-use build system. User supplies the google bits, and the drivers.

There is no reason that you couldn't automate this to the point where anybody on any OS could just download the build system, the source tarball, and plug their phone into the USB with ADB enabled. The build system would extract all the necessary drivers/etc, and then build an update.zip (and optionally install it).
[G1 Android Development] Charrion:
Well, get to work then. ;)
[G1 Android Development] lbcoder:
You people REALLY DON'T GET IT, do you?

The *same thing* as is being done to work around the google proprietary binary issue can be done to work around the HTC proprietary binaries. Back them up from your current phone and restore them into an otherwise *completely functional* (but disabled due to missing proprietary binaries) image. I.e. backup is covered within fair use.

HTC is unlikely to give issues over the distribution of their binaries, however, there is no guarantee to this, AND THE NEAT THING is that HTC binaries can be downloaded by *anyone* from developer.htc.com... in a special "htc proprietary binaries for ADP1" package. Note something really cool about the license terms with that package:

**** THIS MEANS ALL HTC ANDROID DEVICES!!!! Not just ADP1! And since these binaries are only *needed* by HTC devices, this basically covers all.

The rest of the license is fairly typical, you may not copy, convey, distribute, etc., but you CAN USE it for the purpose of developing and testing, which is what we're doing anyways... custom builds of android ARE for the purpose of testing and advancing the OS, if you want full stable use-it but not test-it versions, use the carrier distributed images. I.e., cyanogenmod and other custom installs are primarily large-scale beta tests and a full beta test *depends* on use-as-normal in order to ensure that weird bugs don't crop up in weird places that the developer didn't foresee.
[G1 Android Development] blueheeler:
I believe Cyanogen is just trying to get some sort of clarification as to what can and cannot be done, legally.

But by all means, start making an image for for us all with instructions how to backup and inject everything we need to have a legal functioning phone.

I know we'll all appreciate it very much.

:)
[G1 Android Development] rushless:
A positive out of this is we can have a bare-bones build and then put what apps we want on it. Then again, that seems only good for non apps2sd users, since apps2sd users have plenty of space anyways.
[G1 Android Development] Charrion:
Another possible path?

I've been thinking about a different path to a solution for this mess that I'd like to throw out there. I am neither a coder nor a lawyer so I don't know the legal or technical ramifications of this idea but I thought I'd toss it out to get the opinions of others.

Instead of fussing and fretting with a special backup app to take care of your licensed apps and drivers, etc., would it not be more prudent to make the one bare-bones rom stripped of apps and drivers that are not licensed for distribution and a separate version of the rom that is specifically for a certain licensed device, ie. the T-Mobile G1? Is it even possible to make a version of the rom that would only work on that particular device?

And before everyone else starts screaming, "Hey, what about us {insert carrier and model} users?" If Cyanogen makes that barebones version available via Github, coders can make their own Carrier/Model version somewhat like the guys who modded Cyan's rom to make a version that specifically worked on the Rogers Dream with it's different radio IPL.

This would make Cyan's life a little easier, he could just work on the bare-bones if he wanted and off-load the task of model specific versions to different people or groups. The troubleshooting might even be a little easier not having to deal with the quirks of each and every phone.

Again, I don't know if this is sufficient to get past the problem of distribution of closed source apps and/or drivers to people not licensed to receive them or if this is even technically possible. I'm just spitballing here.

What do you think? Am I off my rocker?
[G1 Android Development] lbcoder:
Unfortunately for you, the problem is distribution. It doesn't matter WHAT you label it as, you are still distributing what you don't have authorization to distribute.

And your proposal actually makes it *more complicated*.

There is no need for a special backup app. Just build yourself your own custom update.zip that does nothing more than install the proprietary apps and flash it after writing your favorite mod firmware, i.e. while still in recovery mode.
[G1 Android Development] Charrion:
Easier said than done I'm sure. Perhaps you missed the part where I said I'm not a dev or coder. But thanks anyway. As I said I wasn't sure if the idea had any merit but wanted to get it out anyway.
[G1 Android Development] cyanogen:
BTW, I'll be back by the weekend :)

The install will be easy, legal, and give you everything you had before. You'll have to jump thru one small hoop the first time around, but I don't think it will be a big deal and won't require any hard work. Everyone gets satisfied on the legal/redistribution front, I get to ship a smaller system image, and all is right with the world again.
[G1 Android Development] enomther:
This is "good news".

~enom~
[G1 Android Development] PorchSong:
Cyanogen,

Will this mean you will NOT be able to work on Google apps to correct bugs? For example, the "square box in lower left corner in maps" issue that can be seen in Tracks in particular. Is that a Tracks issue (not updated to Donut) or a cooked ROM issue? Will you be allowed to even tinker with official Google apps and how they interact with android to resolve issues moving forward? Or we now at the mercy of Google to resolve these issues?

And lastly, thank you for your hard work and continuing with your very fine distro.
[G1 Android Development] cyanogen:
Its actually a really stupid bug in the framework (specific to my ROM) that I've already corrected. I never had to actually mess around with the internals of the proprietary Google applications.
[G1 Android Development] danguyf:
We've always been at the mercy of Google to resolve issues with closed-source Google apps. The only apps we can modify are those with source provided, like the Browser.
[G1 Android Development] bradycl_84043:
My question is, going forward, will Google work with us to give us updates for apps that aren't redistributable but that we are licensed for and obviously will not be receiving OTA?

For instance, when a G1 owner who has never rooted before goes back to RC29 to then go forward with Cyan's builds, will they have a way to receive the new market app to which they really ought to be entitled (once it officially releases, of course)? Or any other app fixes that have only been distributed OTA by google up to today?
[G1 Android Development] abchiptop:
Cyanogen, any idea when your github tree will be buildable? or is it ready now?
[G1 Android Development] cyanogen:
Google really hasn't distributed upgrades to their proprietary apps except for Maps other than during major releases (cupcake to donut, etc).

It's buildable, but the images produced are not bootable because they are missing some scripts. I'm working on that. I've got a working manifest that you can repo init from and some quick build instructions. It's still evolving as Google is doing a lot of work on cleaning up the AOSP build itself.

http://github.com/cyanogen/android
[G1 Android Development] abchiptop:
I'm sure it'll be a bit more stable by the time i get everything set up to build again, trying to install ubuntu on my macbook was a disaster, i just need to resize some partitions :)