yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[G1 Android Development] BoxyD:
I respect your opinion but I would agree to disagree. "you may not combine any part of the Google Software with other software" Thats my interpretation from that snippet. But I'm not a lawyer and I could be totally wrong :eek:

There must be a legal advisor somewhere that trolls the XDA forums. Maybe they can put their 2 cents into this :)
[G1 Android Development] maxisma:
This could be interpreted as:"don't use a part of an app by google and integrate it into. Your own app" (e.g. reverse engineerung the source and implenting part of it into own apps ;-)
[G1 Android Development] alexrussell:
re: Market

Could this be on any use for building a new market app if we wanted to use Android's official market?

http://strazzere.com/blog/?p=293

It may not be, because to get the token and possibly other stuff you need to be sniffing for the real market application's token when it connects. Still, this is obviously the first steps of something and the token stuff may well be worked on in the future.

Having said that, I think most of what Strazzere does is reverse engineering the APKs/DEXes (or something, I must say I don't really understand it!) to get the idea of how it works and then he implements it himself. So maybe none of his work can be used re the market if it's based on reverse engineering the market app...

Just thought I'd put it out there anyway, as no-one's mentioned it yet.
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
Wow if this is to be interpreted as no alternatives that is another thing that google would have lied about... Great... lol

And just to get this straight there is another developer (testing567) who is covering the direction of removing then putting back by script or other way. This thread is not just about sticking it to google it is also about choices it was just kickstarted by googles actions.

Again I am very surprized at how much support this has recived.

Android was a company before being intigrated with google I'm positive we can get to that level with the right support we can call the new OS XDAndroid lol jk
[G1 Android Development] BoxyD:
Since the apps in question were part of the overall ROM/build and not attainable separately (also not easy to backup). I believe this is a violation of the "modify... disassemble... you may not combine any part of the Google Software with other software" clauses previously mentioned.

But thats just my humble opinion :)
[G1 Android Development] BoxyD:
Great post! Definitely worth investigating. I'll try to play around with that code this weekend when I have some free time.
[G1 Android Development] farmatito:
I think the only clean way is to remove all Google apps from the rom

and substitute them with existing or newly developed free apps.

This means to start with the android source code base.

All other ways will in the long term be legally questionable.

The only closed source binaries we need is the htc stuff (akmd, libril*, etc)

but this files are already on the phone so they don't need to be redistributed.

(maybe the update process must be changed to not delete or overwrite them).

Other suggestions:

1) Gmail could be handled by K9-mail or other mail clients

2) Maps could be used from within the browser (?), I've tried it

so far page renders but the browsers (steel and android) seem not

to be able to handle the scrolling of the maps correctly. Have to try Opera)

3) Market could be substituted by a custom developed app or by atrackdog

( let you download from developers site)

4) Contacts syncing: no good idea so far.

5) Setup: could be removed

6) checkin: is not needed (without Market and Gmail)
[G1 Android Development] bjehsus:
Wouldn't it be easier to just not include said apps, and provide instructions on how to pull them from the repo, or a stock build, and have the user add them in at the user's end? Even writing a tool to do this for you would probably be fine. Don't release unlicensed stuff, have the user put them in.
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
Yeah this is what we are going for.

How about all the internal stuff like closed source drivers and other items like that would this be a problem i would think not because there are development phones that come with these not 100% on this can i get any clarification?
[G1 Android Development] nightwolf2k5:
dont we have an app that syncs facebook to ur contacts?

that does not use google afaik..
[G1 Android Development] danguyf:
The spelling, grammar, and punctuation on display in this thread are atrocious. The enthusiasm is great.

To summarize the work up to this point:

Several promising avenues have emerged.

1) Replace all closed-source Google apps with distributable alternatives. (Including sync and check-in.) Where the Market is concerned, either replace it with a different market entirely or create an app that syncs with the Google Market servers.

OR

2) Cyanogen can remove closed-source Google apps from his mod zip and create a method by which they are backup up prior to modding, then restored after the fact.

Any successful effort on this scale is going to need more technical understanding at the top. (Cataloging people's C/C++ skills is about as useful as collecting COBOL programmers -- Android uses a Java virtual machine.)
[G1 Android Development] lbcoder:
Simpler than that.

He can make the roms exactly as he has been, but simply add ONE STEP before signing the zip file... delete the closed source apps.

Then the user just has to install the rom and then install the closed source apps.
[G1 Android Development] farmatito:
Which is coded in C like the kernel, all other system libs and binaries. :D
[G1 Android Development] giantcrazy:
This is the first I'm hearing of the C&D, but I'm perplexed that Google would take this route.

That's very Apple-like behavior, from a vendor who was praising OSS and it's benefits.

Very disappointing. Do we at least have a petition somewhere? I'd like to tell Google I might as well hand them back their platform if they're going to take this route.
[G1 Android Development] Loccy:
All this debate about exactly what the Google legal bollocks actually means. Do we care?

Virtually every rom on this site - particularly outside of us Androiders' community - is warez, strictly speaking. (Which is why I never understood the fixation with QuickOffice - it's no more warez than HTC IME, but I digress)

All Cyan needs to do is distribute his Rom without the affected components. If we, individually, then choose to push apks in our possession that is our own choice and legal/moral quandry. However, Google would not be in a position to compel Cyan to decist under those circumstances.

And in terms of our own moral/legal quandry, I submit there is no difference in flashing a Hero rom. In fact it's less dubious. When you flash a Hero rom you are definitely using software you have no licence for. Pushing the google apps back to a fresh install that doesnt have them, well, at least your device has a licence for them, even if that licence might have become debatable by your actions.
[G1 Android Development] farmatito:
They don't need to be redistributed, as they are already on your phone.

You just need not to delete them during the update process.

IMHO they don't need to be redistributed.
[G1 Android Development] danguyf:
Yeah, but nobody is going to be rewriting the JVM, are they? Good point about the libs and binaries, though. (This is why I'm certainly not nominating myself, or anything.)
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
lol I try to use correct spelling and grammar but doesnt always happen... anyway as of right now there is alot we can do the goal is to make something that fits us as the people without worring of being oppressed see we can cut the apps sure but if it comes to themeing im not a theme developer but i imagine it would be alot more work to have to remove all apps

then add them back in then change the icon/drawables? correct me if im wrong here and of course we can get in touch with the origional devs and make sure its alright to edit thier apps

keep the good news coming lol
[G1 Android Development] lbcoder:
It actually says VERY SPECIFICALLY the following:

To paraphrase: if you have an OFFICIAL ANDROID DEVELOPER PHONE 1 (this does NOT include non-adp1-dream/magic/hero/etc.), even with an android system image (which it is) containing 3rd party software, you ARE PERFECTLY FREE to load the Google Software. Hmm.. That tells me that *MY PHONE* is licensed to use Google Software, regardless of what kind of weird system image I chose to run on it, as long as it is still somewhat-androidish.

There is no exception for distribution of those google apps... which is strictly forbidden (the underground will cover it though...)

The allowance does not restrict ACQUISITION of said apps, in other words, if super-pirate-mega-cracker.ru hosts "googleappz-update.zip", you (if you have an official ADP1) are free to go there and download them strictly for the purpose of loading on your official ADP1 (However, it may not be advisable to do so, never know what you'll catch off a .ru site...). Theoretically, you should pull those apps from the original ADP1 system image.

Note: Google apps ARE available for download LEGALLY as part of the official ADP1 system image available at developer.htc.com. Simple and legal solution is to write a little utility to extract those apps from the official ADP1 system image, add them into the mod-image, and sign the mod-image. The utility itself is perfectly OK since it would be a useful tool for ADP1 owners. The actual result is that it would be TRIVIAL for a user to add in the google apps WITHOUT taking the risk of actually distributing them (which is illegal).... i.e., download cyanogenmod-nogoogleapps-unsigned-x.xx.xx.zip, download ADP1 system image from developer.htc.com, run "insert-google-apps-and-sign --source officialadp1systemimage.zip --destination cyanogenmod-nogoogleapps-unsigned-x.xx.xx.zip --outfile cyanogenmod-googleapps-signed-x.xx.xx.zip", copy file cyanogenmod-googleapps-signed-x.xx.xx.zip to /sdcard/, recovery/flash, done.

So in summary: Last step before signing: delete all the closed source google apps from rom. Publish as normal. Owners of official ADP1 can install missing google apps, non-ADP1 owners can forego the google apps or get themselves a parrot.
[G1 Android Development] stellarman:
I think you are correct, and on the right track. We need to have a simple way to backup and restore the system apps we already have, or a way to keep them intact when we flash a new ROM. That is a lot more simple than trying to rewrite everything, or come up with alternative apps.
[G1 Android Development] cacahahacaca:
Don't be ridiculous. "They brought Android to us" Boo-hoo... They got an open source core and monetized it with closed source crap, and now the system won't work if you take out the proprietary parts.
[G1 Android Development] saprano614:
it seems to me that google is more upset with cyan because of his use of the new unreleased versions of the google apps. i dont know this for sure but that , if i were google , would be my complaint. not saying that i dont think it is crap what they r pulling but they have a right to do it for the unreleased stuff.
[G1 Android Development] farmatito:
There is one problem: htc adp1 rom is only localized in english, can't say how this affects google apps.

One more problem is you have to accept the licence before downloading Htc stuff so no automated download is possible.
[G1 Android Development] danguyf:
lol

I try to use correct spelling and grammar, but it doesn't always happen... Anyway, as of right now there is a lot we can do. The goal is to make something that fits us without worrying about being oppressed.

See we can cut the apps, sure, but if it comes to theming -- I'm not a theme developer, but -- I imagine it would be a lot more work to have to remove all apps, then add them back in, then change the icon/drawables. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

And of course we can get in touch with the original devs and make sure it's alright to edit their apps.
[G1 Android Development] danguyf:
The only apps that can be edited are the ones that are already open source, i.e. the developers have already given blanket permission for them to be edited.
[G1 Android Development] lbcoder:
It doesn't.

Who said anything about automated downloading?

Automated downloading would be a BAD THING -- if it included automated downloading, then it would be no different than just including the files to begin with. The ADP1 system image *MUST* be a MANUAL DOWNLOAD.
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
thanks

So... did i fail the essay?

I am sure if we were to get in touch with select app developers we could persuade them into letting us include and edit thier files (as needed hopefully mainly visual changes). if we are nice about it and inform them the impact it may have it would be a whole new market not as big as the android one but a market none the less
[G1 Android Development] bbutlerau:
Wish i could help

I hope i can help in some way to this project. sadly my programming/development skills are a little lacking (basic C at uni although i did get 92% in it lol)

CyanogenMod has been an absolute godsend for me as originally i was quite dissaponted with the dream still i booted up his rom. Also as Androids is woefully unsupported down here in Australia (iphone crazy.. everything else falls by the roadside) i needed this rom to access features such as cupcake.

any suggestions to what i can do....... anything at all (maybe i should learn java,.......)
[G1 Android Development] irrenhaus:
Mh one thing I don't understand.

If the plan is really to rewrite all closed source parts (I would really, really like it. Don't really know why. But I like the idea of a really fully community based android. It's more like the original linux things ;) ) and there is now idea for contacts till now - Google provides us with an official API for access to the google contact things.

Why don't we just write a provider for e.g. the contacts sync and use this api?

GMail could be done by POP3 acces (IMAP is also supported isn't it?).

The Market - Well, this community is really big. So just put up an alternative market site simillar to the google market. Developers can publish their apps with comments, screenshots etc. Then write an app for the phone, which uses that online DB. The downloads then are done over a HTTP link which the developer provides. And thanks to the community, we could offer a section "found by community" where anyone can add those data.

Just a few ideas.

It should be possible or am I wrong?

PS: I really don't know very much about the internals of Android. So give me hint - What's the big deal about the sign in / setup thing? An own app which stores such login data in a db on the phone so the developed apps can get access to it (the mail apps etc.) maybe could do the job? Then we would really have to rewrite all the google experience things, ok. But it could work?
[G1 Android Development] Zarboz:
couldnt you release a source code if you would... like release the build minus the google apps and then users can place the apps back into the builds as needed.... i know the setup wizard is pertanent to setup the phone so obviously these things would have to be pushed to the phone or the rom would have to just be resigned. i for one have over 100 roms saved on my hard drive and at least 10 on my sd card containing these "licensed" apps

in essence he (or any dev) wouldnt be in trouble if he was releasing builds without the Google registered apps then us as the user can probably locate said apps from IRC rooms bittorrent or previously stored means....and then insert said apps back into the rom......... this would place responsibility on end user and would take heat off the devs

i know this isnt a quick fix for normal users without knowledge of android or some of its inner workings but i also feel this would cut down alot on devs having to answer retarted questions or dealing with these questions

but there would be nothing legal to argue about seeing as the end user not the developer would be responsible for placing the apps into the build...

just a thought sorry if it was off topic just tryin to share a temporary alternative method
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
As long as you are trying to make it better you are on topic.

And yes that will ultimatly work but what we need is a standard to make it easier to share work/theme for/troubleshoot.

Threads would be full of people complaining about problems that they themselves cause and they blame it on the developer, now add in a bunch of idiots and hate mail, it would be a mess if every Tom **** and Harry put in these important apps. This would cause many developers to quit publicly releasing stuff.

While yes this is XDA-Developers, developers are not the only ones here people who just want a better phone also come here. Now with 1 click root anyone that can press a button can come to this site and complain bluetooth is not working on thier hero rom...
[G1 Android Development] Zarboz:
yah i understand that but i think if the method of doing it all is a bit more intimidating to the electronic illiterate we can cut the 100+pages of GPS doesnt work Bluetooth doesnt work etc....

yes it would require end user to have a more intimate knowledge of android rather than hoppin on a thread downloading a update.zip cuz the screenies look cool and flashing then complaining about EVERYTHING

i saw in another thread an idea similar to mine where there would be a

resources.zip (obtainable from somewhere less public than a forum or compiled from your previous roms app_s and app folders)

the developer would release a "bare bones build" then the update.zip availible runs scripts at boot (such as a2sd and LED fixes for hero roms twiseds rom determines wether or not the phone is dream or magic and installs the necessary files to function so i know this would be possible) to grab files from resources.zip on the root of your sd (eg the apps and libs to run them) and install to the corresponding places this would make it a little more accessible for the end user rather than getting into a IRC room or waiting for a torrent to DL point im getting at is you can sidestep google right now, while we come up with a more permanent solution, they dont want developers directly distributing their signed apps.......

welll alot of them have been distributed already and with 30,000+ users that means that there is 30,000+ copies of all those files floating around

so i think this would be an acceptable way to do it for a while just to take tension off things
[G1 Android Development] BoxyD:
I agree with you. Us rooting our phones is already a violation of the user license agreement. I just wanted to point out that there were issues with the alternatives being posted because people were talking as if these solutions were perfect. In the end it is the users choice (us) whether we want to adhere to the rules by the letter. But as I said, the fact that we have rooted our phones would already imply we that we won't be. :)
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
Yeah I rooted mine as soon as it was discovered the end user stuff didnt stop me the main thing is protecting the developers when you make a good rom it gets around and the wrong people hear it and we get in the situation we are in now. some developers dont care (Drizzy lol) but others are more concerend and dont want a major company breathin down thier necks. Even if these roms are ruled illegal ill still be on the torrent sites gettin them i dont mind getting my hands dirty but a C&D is a serious thing and i wouldnt want that sent to me.
[G1 Android Development] testing567:
This is almost the same as the idea I had except I tried to think of a way to keep it more noob friendly. http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=564303

I completely agree with you that replacing Google and breaking the chains is an important long term goal. My idea is just a way to side step the legal issue until we can walk on our own.
[G1 Android Development] Loccy:
It certainly is now, if this is going to be Google's attitude.

Back on the short term solution, couldn't ROM cookers actually include a partial wipe as part of their installer? i.e trash everything on /data/app and /system/app (or /sd/app and /sd/app_s, if you're perverse and insist on that A2SD cobblers :D). Everything that is, apart from the closed source APKs. Not only would you resolve the issue with Google, you'd solve a load of irritating "it doesn't work" posts caused by not wiping.
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
lol Yeah you got it covered it seems like on the short term and maybe medium term. im glad this thread inspired you and that was the point of it and I am gonna run this rom once you get this set up.

but hopefully this will inspire alot of other side projects and bring others together into a community created flavor of android
[G1 Android Development] nolageek:
The possible problem I see with using all third party apps as replacements is that they don't talk to each other, do they? If we use K-9 and not google contacts/gmail will it sync with messaging?
[G1 Android Development] MOONSSPOON:
Can he not just say that the download is for ADP devices only? Anyone downloading the rom for use on a device other than ADP is doing so at their own risk?
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
Good question if a new app is made we could control this but as of right now its a speed bump i will add this to the OP
[G1 Android Development] ttabbal:
Alright. I'm irritated enough to make time to help out. What do we need? I can do Java, C, C++, and shell scripts (along with a lot of things that probably don't matter in Android). I was working on Bluetooth stuff, but I'll drop that for now to get CyanogenMod back up and running. Sounds like the setup wizzard is a big issue. Anyone know where it stores the resulting data? I could hack one up pretty quick after all the low level Andriod crap I've been fussing with lately.

Do we want to store the data elsewhere? Gmail APIs exist for contact sync and such. How pissed off do we want to be? Hell, I have a server I can host data on if we want to go nuts. I wonder if we can integrate with Mozilla's Weave project. That would be really cool. And if we don't care about Google integration, we can just write our own setup and sync utils without worrying about all that.

Anything I write will be open source. What license options we are considering? I've done GPL and BSD in the past. Willing to consider others.

For maps, there is OpenStreetMap. It's likely not as accurate as Gmaps, but it's an option. I've also been fooling with Waze, kinda cool little app.
[G1 Android Development] bert269:
Storing the stuff....

Guys, I know that some might not like this suggestion, but we are talking Linux here...and where does all the Linux code get stored? For one: Sourceforge...

We may need an interface to this, but that is where you clever programmers/developers comes into the picture....

Let's get this thing off the ground! We can show Google!

I paid for this phone - If I void me warranty, so what I already did by installing Cyanogen's mod.....
[G1 Android Development] jjcd51590:
Awesome

Thanks alot for your support as i see it now there are a few problems and i would like your input on them...

1st yea the sign up wizard i have no details on that admittingly im not all that great i cant help you there... sorry

2nd How can we get all of the apps to talk to each other this seems to be some very low level stuff here for the most part.

3rd is the market we have a few different offers such as slideme.org or the and dev store.

otherwise there are many replacement apps for right now we just need a phone that calls and has our contacts in it other stuff can come later so if u could work on the sign up wizard or syncing contacts in a way that other apps have access would be most useful
[G1 Android Development] wayne07:
Actually, to really irritate google... we should

1. Create apps to migrate gmail, maps to yahoo, ms

2. Create browser that set BING as default

3. Create a better yahoo finance browser

4. For syncing, mayb even use yahoo etc.

we don't have to adhere to open source.

that will make google mad