yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[HD2 General] trentend:
What I find most interesting is that the phone hardware appears to be a terrible fit for WM in its current iteration. It seems to me that Android is a better fit for the hardware. This leads me to wonder whether it was a development platform for Android, or maybe WM7. Certainly running WM6.5 the device looks flawed.

From my own perspective my patience has expired with WM (and I've carried a windows mobile since the early compaq days, first phone a tytn, last and current phones are a diamond and a blackstone). With it's phone OS Microsoft, like on the desktop, seems happy to make free and easy with the phone hardware providing neither a good user experience or decent performance (my blackstone and diamond regularly freeze on ordinary tasks with few apps running, yet both are decent hardware platforms for a mobile phone device).

By the time WM7 comes around I'll have moved to Android, and it will take a spectacular piece of work to get me back. To me the HD2 looks like it should be running Android (of the current OS options), and unless HTC bring out a similar Android variant I'll be passing.
[HD2 General] Teneka_Khan:
I've read the specs and it says "Open GL ES 2.0 graphics HW (QCOM 8k, Nvidia “Tegra” AP15/16* and TI 3430 all meet spec)" - well it doesnt say that the AMD z430 doesn't meet the spec and the AMD z430 does support Open GL ES 2.0. Its also based on Xbox 360 graphic chipset so I would have thought it would be WM7 compatible
[HD2 General] Teneka_Khan:
I've looked at Android - but in my opinion its not ready yet. Video playback is limited, the hardware (even the Hero) isn't good enough, and application support is not much better than Windows Mobile). Personally I think that Microsoft have woken up, and will throw everything at Windows Mobile 7 to make it work. That effort cannot be underestimated, and I put my money on it being the best of the phone OS's in 18 months time.
[HD2 General] trentend:
If you think it's not ready, it's because you haven't used a phone and compared it to a WM phone. Using a Hero and a Blackstone side by side, I'd take the Hero everytime. Now I agree that the hardware available with android phones, to date, is less than impressive and that has knock on effects for video performance and the suchlike. The operating system is light years ahead in useability and massive cross vendor support means that we should see real traction and momentum for Android going forward. Put it together with the hardware level of the Leo and you have, in my opinion, a winning combination..........whereas the Leo with WM is just another fatally flawed device and I'm done with buying any more of them.
[HD2 General] xdadeverik:
I totally agree with you. I've also been a long time WM user. I've always had a love-hate relationship with the phones. I love smartphones with touchscreen with its rich interface and extensibility with apps other than those already installed. Yet I've always hated having to run WM. I've had every version of WM and it keeps getting slower and more unstable with every release it seems. I recently turned on an old Qtec 9090 which still had a live battery after years in a drawer (hardly any consumption when it's off!) and I had really forgotten that the UI used to be so astonishingly fast! The added functionality of newer releases hardly make up for the slow down :mad:.

I've been waiting for this hardware to be released only to be disappointed that it won't be running Android out of the box. Only then would it be such an amazingly powerful device! I don't have the courage (or time) to convert it to Android yet. I hope that someone here will pioneer that solution with reasonable success, or that HTC learns from its mistakes.

It seems only on a 1 GHz processor WM6.5 or WM7 would be able to run acceptably.

I'm not buying the HTC Hero because I was waiting for a Dragon processor equiped phone with Android.
[HD2 General] Teneka_Khan:
Don't get me wrong - I really like Android. Its just right now, it doesnt do some of the things i want from a phone, and I can't wait for a phone to come out that does.
[HD2 General] bemymonkey:
UK? Do my posts come with an attached British accent? :D Nah, I'm from Germany :p

As for the rest: I tend to agree with you... Multi-Touch isn't all that important in most applications - there's just a few specialized apps which are usually HTC-customized anyway that use it, at least as far as I can tell.
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
Nah, you just seem to worry a lot about things - that's usually a British trait. :)
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
From what I see on the videos, WM6.5 works beautifully on this device, so I don't see how great hardware would be a terrible fit for it (even if you consider WM6.5 mediocre). If we look at HTC software, it benefits greatly from the hardware - Manila, Opera, Album and Picture viewer all use the GPU; proximity, light and g-sensor are a great complement. Great processor moves the laggish UI faster. Where's the "terrible fit" again?

I am also eternally happy that such a great hardware-wise device wasn't wasted on geek-satisfying experiments. I have nothing against geeks, being one myself (except that I use the phone at work a lot, so I prefer to have proven stuff here). Neither do I have anything against Android per se, but it's nothing more than a geekish fad at the moment, overblown by ignorant journalists. It doesn't have either the ease of portability of Win32/WM/WinCE, with interoperability with regard to Exhange/Office or the integral holistic experience/style/glamour of the iPhone. It will certainly evolve into something more useful and mainstream (or niche), but it isn't there yet for sure. So making a flagship device with that OS would be just crazy for HTC.
[HD2 General] gvino:
I just don't understand why they removed the power button on top and moved the 3.5 mm audio jack to the bottom of the phone........ Another mistake(or innovation, whatever you called it) since the removal of d pad buttons from touch hd.
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
Probably size considerations...
[HD2 General] thinman24:
regarding how slim the HD2 is, I think the 3.5mm Jack was moved down due to packaging reasons. It's a long socket and it has more space underneath the buttons and the HTC logo than underneath the Display.
[HD2 General] polstein:
I think the numbers keep throwing me off.

The pages I see (clove/expansys/handtec) all show:

Europe: Network Bands

* HSPA/WCDMA: 900/2100 MHz

* GSM: 850/950/1800/1900 MHz

Asia Pacific:

* HSPA/WCDMA: 900/2100 MHz

* GSM: 850/950/1800/1900 MHz

Which to me looks the same - what's the difference between the Europe & Asia versions in there? If AT&T is 850/1900 then I still see all the frequencies up there - only thing I don't see is the 1900 on the HSPA line.
[HD2 General] Mithrandir007:
If I'm not mistaken, that is exactly why it can be used with GSM frequencies in USA, but not 3G (HSPA/WCDMA).

USA providers use 850/1900 (and 1700?) MHz frequencies which are not available on the phone for 3G.
[HD2 General] trentend:
It's the windows Mobile 6.5 that makes it a terrible fit. The operating system doesn't fully support the hardware platform, and the kludge written to patch things like multi-touch isn't being released with an sdk. So it's unlikely to ever be properly supported by third party applications - and it might even be a struggle for new ROMs. Also the device may not formally be certified for WM7. As a consequence it's a hardware platform, with non-supporting software, lying in a transient phase between WM legacy and WM7. WM7 will likely have apps that support the hardware better, where WM6.5 may never do so. Consequently touch HD2 owners may never see their device hardware be fully supported or exploited - and many of us have been there before with lack of driver support form HTC. It's a bad fit, with no long term guarantees.

Android is capable of supporting that hardware already, assuming drivers.

My Blackstone (in it's day considered a fabulous groundbreaking, must have WM smartphone) regularly freezes in unloaded operations....things like making or receiving calls (a known bug). WM is very tired and very bloated, and very rubbish. In testing an android phone (Hero) it was consistently able to make calls better than my blackstone (voted only behind the xperia as the best HTC phone ever - up until 2008). That's right, WM can't always make consistent quality phone connections.

There were reasons for using WM in the past, but I think that time has passed. Granted some people will need WM for specific reasons (and at this point who knows what state WM7 will be in, and what the legacy support will be). I probably don't (mainly because the things that I thought I needed my WM phone to do, it doesn't do them well enough for it to be a viable day to day tool).

I've been a technology professional for nearly twenty five years. I have a lot of experience in tracking technological developments and basing business decisions around technical viability and likely future direction.....and in my view your opinion on Android is fatally flawed.

Only time will tell, but I'm sitting this one out.
[HD2 General] Noam23:
Similar to what I did with the Blackstone, I'm buying the Leo until a successor will arrive. Until then, the Leo is the best mobile on market.

Moreover, as soon as I'm getting the Leo, I'm disabling the Manila and going with SPB Mobile Shell3.5, by far a more functional inerface.
[HD2 General] polstein:
So what is the difference of 1900 showing up in this line:

* GSM: 850/950/1800/1900 MHz

But not on this line:

* HSPA/WCDMA: 900/2100 MHz

My original impression is that at long as 1900 showed up *somewhere* in the specs, 3g would work.

Anyway, assuming you are correct - then I'm waiting till 2010. I wouldn't mind spending the extra $ to get it early, but I'm not buying it w/o the 3g working.

But it's going to be hard watching people get & play with the phone when it comes out knowing I could be waiting 6 more months (Nov-Apr) or possibly longer!
[HD2 General] waycoolkennel:
I'm with Vangrieg...

Adroid is NOT ready IMO.. oh ..and I have 20 years experience just the same... For a business/enterprise device.. we will NOT be supporting android until its ready.. and right now.. its not. ALL the android devices I've configured.. have been severely lacking.. in fact all but one has since been returned in favor of Blackberry..

So we can agree to disagree...

From what I see so far.. there is NOTHING to fret with HD2.. it looks to be complete .. and works beautifully.. HTC has made the right decision IMO.
[HD2 General] trentend:
Is it amongst the best hardware on the market? Yes.

Is it amongst the best WM phone? Yes.

Is it the best mobile phone. Not in my view, and the way the hardware lacks support under the operating system is a cause for concern.

I don't know what enterprise you work in, and what the specific requirements are, but in our enterprise users regularly reject and send back windows mobile phones because they don't make phone calls well enough.

This current phone, with the current level of WM is unlikely to make further penetration into any specific market place. Very few manufacturers are currently building for WM. There may be specific reasons that a WM phone is needed now, but if that's the case it's unlikely a brand new WM phone is needed.

Just my view.
[HD2 General] bugsy:
If it helps, think of it as two separate devices in one package. One device is a voice/edge data device, the other is a voice/3g data device. You'll get voice and edge data because the frequency is there, however the frequency is not there with the second device therefore you can't get 3g data or voice over 3g. Does that help? The bottom line is that the device launching in Europe over the next week or so will NOT work on any of the U.S. 3g networks. It will work in the U.S. as a voice and edge only device.
[HD2 General] les_paulde:
I actually think it was a very clever thing to move the 3,5mm audio jack to the bottom. While using GSplayer, I've set the hardware buttons to be play/pause and next song etc., and now the placement of the audio jack will allow me to do so without having to take the phone out of my pocket everytime i wanna change songs, as the buttons end up being on top while its in your pocket... I think that was the purpose of having it in the bottom... :D
[HD2 General] surur:
Can the Android lovers just shove off. Go to Android side of XDA and wait for the HTC Dragon.
[HD2 General] trentend:
Android appears on HTC phones, and as such is a legitimate point of discussion in a general interest forum where the title of the thread is "The first decent HTC phone in a long time". So the answer to your question is: No, get stuffed.

Hope that helps.
[HD2 General] X1-owner:
To be accurate, the title is actually "HTC Leo = The first decent HTC phone in a long time". The thread is about a WinMo phone, and the rumoured Dragon will probably have similar HW and Android. You will get what you want, why do you need to preach about Android in this thread?
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about - I'm making calls all the time without problems.

HTC has like 80% share of the WM phone market. Others may not make WM phones, so what? Also, what manufacturers are you talking about? Nokia? Sure they don't make WM phones, but they wouldn't do it even if WM were the best thing on Earth, not with their current strategy. Motorola? That sinking Titanic can't be a benchmark for anything, they haven't been able to make a successful phone since the Razr. Samsung makes WM phones and will be doing it. SE don't make their own WM phones but they are certainly trying to be in this market cautiously.

A quick Google search reveals that the most successful phone in history, the Jesus Phone, brought Apple $1.84 bln of revenues in 2008, with all the brand power, operators, hype, turtleneck sweater presentations and all. A small Taiwanese manufacturer unknown to most people on Earth whom Microsoft pulled out of nowhere a few years ago made $4.61 bln selling WM phones in the same year. The same WM phones which, judging by (especially US) press are almost defunct. When you read Forbes, all you hear is iPhone and Android, but that's more of a media hysteria then facts, coupled with usual US inclination to discount things that relate to non-US companies.

Now you're saying they have to dump it and instead of building on their success bet on a dark horse just because techies and geeks love everything that comes from Google?
[HD2 General] trentend:
The thread does not specify Windows Mobile. It specifies HTC - and HTC make android phones, that are supported on these very forums. I'm disagreeing with the proposition that has been put forward. Because:

1. The HTC Hero, in my view is a better phone than the Leo will be. This is based on my first hand experience of the Hero, and my first hand experience of Blackstone, and informed by my technical knowledge and reading the specifications of the hardware and software for Leo, in conjunction with known deficiencies in the drivers and support for the hardware in Leo in the OS that has been chosen for it. I am entitled to express my view, in fact it may be of use to some people.

2. For a long time Windows Mobile was the only game in town if you wanted a programmable, ultimately configurable, mobile platform device for specialist applications. The landscape has changed. Now Windows Mobile isn't the only way to do things, and it's reasonable to ask is it the best. For a very small niche it possibly remains the only way to do certain things, however for the vast majority of people I'm not convinced that's the case. Moreover Windows Mobile makes bad use of hardware resources and is buggy, poorly integrated, and out of date. Because of that, despite superior hardware, I believe it is reasonable to question whether it will even be the best HTC mobile at release, never mind when a Snapdragon Android phone hits. For most people the Hero is a better choice. The Leo has great hardware, but an OS that is unlikely to get the best out of it.

There are a lot of formerly evangelical WM users who are now convinced by Android as a platform. There are also a lot of mobile phone manufacturers in the same situation. Just take a look at current smartphone development projects and the split between WM and Android development. It's instructive. Essentially it seems that there are only two manufacturers loyal to WM. Motorola and HTC, both of whom already have, or plan Android devices. This is after many years of WM availability.

Android gets more, from less hardware. Imagine what it can do when someone builds it into a hardware platform like the Leo - especially compared with what windows mobile will make of it. I'm willing to bet it's not a flattering comparison. Multi-tasking WM on superior hardware, has been able to out-horsepower the limited hardware single vendor platform that is the iphone. It wont be able to do that with multi-OEM sources of Android phone....nor will it be able to compete on cost, as Android attracts no license fees (and manufacturers are just about reaching the point of having built up the necessary expertise).

I have no problem if people are unconvinced by my argument, or have their own reasons for getting another WM phone. It is, however, how I feel. It is also on topic and pertinent to this thread.
[HD2 General] Ruudfood:
People are seriously knocking Leo because of the fact that it runs WM? I mean, sure WM6.5 is dated and bloated but what do you think MS are doing? Developing WM7 based on previous WM versions? I seriously doubt that. I'm 100% certain MS will deliver a kick-a$$ phone OS to rival (and better) the capabilities of the iPhone ON A WIDER RANGE OF DEVICES!

Did MS rest on their laurels with Vista? No, they've delivered W7 which has, so far, been fairly highly acclaimed. Phone manufacturers have had the requirements for WM7 for a while and will, no doubt be creating devices which are well capable of running WM7. Leo came too early for WM7 but the lack of real software support should not devalue what is a great (potentially "Gen 1 WM7") device.
[HD2 General] vangrieg:
Your argument is centered around the statement that Android is much better than WM. You may have a case there, but I fail to see though why HTC should stop making WM phones with great hardware. Android yet has to prove itself commercially, and there's quite a long road it has to go to get there.
[HD2 General] ToddeSwe:
Useless even before i have gotten it... :)

Hi guys!

After reading all comments here on XDA my pre ordered HD2 seems useless already and i'm beginning to think on how to cancel my order or not... :)

I was so lucky to see specs meeting my demands, but the phone is rather expensive and who wants a phone that's already obsolete :) and not upgradable to WinMo 7 ...

So... nothing is going to be developed for the new features that the HD2 comes with? Why make the phone when no one can make software for it?

Please... advice me on how cancel or not...
[HD2 General] trentend:
Don't Look forwards. All higher profit figures (on lower turnover) mean is that profit is higher per unit - not that more units are sold or that market share is higher. windows Mobile has been around for a long time, there is no credible analyst, nor measureable figures, that suggest anything other than Windows Mobile losing ground to Android - with the caveat that i acknowledge that we are so early in Android lifespan and handset availability that it would be unwise to project on the basis of early figures were it not that every credible measure seems to support it.....but forget the figures and the market share, and your previous loyalty. Which is the best phone? Blackstone or G1/G2? For most people the answer is not the one you might want to hear. The browser share figures already look worrying for Windows Mobile, given that they are a measure of ease of use and market penetration combined - or presumably your contention would be that the phone on windows mobile is fine and using the internet is only a marginal requirement for smartphone users?[/QUOTE]

No, I'm saying that Windows Mobile is an opportunity well and truly missed already.....and I'm saying that unless something radical happens every year that we return to this conversation makes it more likely that you will agree with me. I'm also saying that Windows Mobile 6.5 with kludged hardware support isn't the radical thing that is necessary - nor is it likely to be a platform with a high market share (it may only appear on Leo as microsoft make the transition to WM7), and that it might get left out in the cold, support wise. I'm also saying, on the basis of past experience (ie every HTC windows mobile device I've had, which is quite a lot) that it's likely to have substantial problems (like Blackstone has the periodic freeze bug).
[HD2 General] Teneka_Khan:
I think its fair to say that we've gathered you don't like the Leo, and that its got a "lions" share of problems, and in the "mane" you'd prefer Android. My "prides" taken a battering but i'll still keep on "roaring" away about my wonderful Leo (when I get it).

Sorry just thought I would lighten the mood a bit. Either phone is better than jungle drums heh!
[HD2 General] surur:
trentend is trolling. I hope the moderators do something about it.
[HD2 General] trentend:
No worries, fun is fine.

Woot! Great hi-res capacitive touch screen! I want one!

I know that's what I'm supposed to say, but I think people deserve to hear an alternative view, even if they ultimately conclude that I'm wrong and a moron. The thread title itself acknowledges that HTC have made flawed devices, often lacking fundamental drivers to maximise the phone hardware, for a while.

Excuse me if I fail to get excited about another, albeit amongst the beast hardware available to date (big surprise: new, premium, expensive phone released with top level hardware shock), phone with poor (in terms of the hardware available on the device) systems software.

It looks like the same old, same old, to me. Whereas the HTC Android phones have a much better match between the hardware and software, and are capable of supporting this hardware within the standard operating system. I think it bears saying, particularly given the head start WM has. It's become such a joke that it's not funny any more. IMHO.
[HD2 General] trentend:
i expect you to substantiate that remark, or withdraw it. In my view I'm expressing a legitimate view, in a thread that poses a question, in the general forum.

You might not like what I'm saying, but I would expect someone with the time you've spent here to be able to respect other peoples views, even if you don't agree with them - as I respect yours, and your right to express them.
[HD2 General] Teneka_Khan:
i think the point is there is no forum yet just for the Leo, so this is the only place people who like the phone can talk about the phone. You keep on attacking it, and obviously prefer another phone. You've made your point - why not leave it there and let those who want to discuss the phone's finer points discuss them.
[HD2 General] bhogal:
+1......................
[HD2 General] polstein:
Thanks for the explanation, bugsy.

So when HTC says Q1 2010, it's not necessarily that AT&T or T-Mobile (USA) will be offering the device as much as a a 1900 on the 3g 'device' will be available then.

Of course, if AT&T/T-Mobile offer it, then there should be the possibility of a reduced price with contract at least.

Wonder if the delay is while they try to hammer out a deal with 1 or the other (or both) or some other reason.
[HD2 General] trentend:
I don't have a problem with that, but can I suggest a title change? Either to "The best HTC windows mobile phone to date", or perhaps "HTC Leo = The next in a long line of great hardware, crippled by poor systems level software"......or something that does not imply that it's intrinsically better than the Android phones HTC already make, because the reality is likely to be that it isn't.

Frankly it should have it's own forum by now. It's an announced and imminent device.