yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[General Topics] MultiMatt:
Participating in a head-to-head against Blackberry & iPhone - seeking their weakness!

Hi Everyone,

This Friday, I am going to be participating in a head-to-head panel discussion with a Blackberry expert and an iPhone expert. It is taking place at a Louisville Microsoft User Group meeting. I will be representing Windows Mobile in this "throwdown".

I have been working to compile information about the Blackberry and the iPhone, namely things that are a weakness when compared to Windows Mobile. I know they will both have a plethora of things to throw at me (how complicated Windows Mobile is to operate, blah blah blah...), so I want to be as prepared as possible to point out their shortcomings.

I read the really nice writeup from Menneisyys on the browser comparison, so I know the iPhone guy is going to be highlighting the Safari browser superiority. That article reminded me of some good talking points about what some of the WM browsers offer that Safari doesn't.

Looking for any input anyone might have, so I can add it to my list of talking points! No need to write a novel - you can just bullet items...

Thanks in advance for any armament you can provide! :)

Matt Coddington

Windows Mobile Louisville
[General Topics] owziee:
Just a few here. I don't think the iphone can do any of these but modern wm devices can.

* copy & paste text in browser, easily done in opera 9.5, not possible on iphone I believe.

* Opera mobile have built-in download manager, download any file...

* 3G Video calling.

* Send stuff to friends via bluetooth (also recieve of course).

* Taking decent photos with a 3 mp & up built-in autofocus camera, the 2 mp fixed focus camera in the iphone is a joke.

* Record video at 30 fps.

* Browse mapped folders on your network with advanced filemanagers like Resco Explorer & etc.

* Draw nice artwork with advanced photo editing softwares like Pocket Artist.

* If you don't like the built in SIP, install another one. (Though I must admit the one in the iphone is really nice as it is.)

* Completely change the way your phone works and looks by customizing everything.

* Edit the registry to change file associations, like clicking on a Divx video automatically opens in Coreplayer for an example.

Sorry I'm to tired to go on with this list I think I would have to stay up all night if I should finish it.
[General Topics] josefcrist:
user replaceable battery.

you have the choice between quite a few devices.
[General Topics] deedee:
Unfortunately the BB does both of those. I will be very surprised if the BB guy doesn't sing the security aspects of the device, and as a BB Admin they are damn good. That said I have added some apps to my Trinity to give me some of that security back.

The BBs strengths is its weakness, it was designed as a secure platform for email first and everything has been added afterwards, WM had the basics in from the beginning and they have all been tweaked as a whole.

Sorry to not sound more positive about WM even though i have one myself which i wouldn't change for a BB.
[General Topics] josefcrist:
windows mobile has been around forever and has more apps. windows mobile is more open.
[General Topics] deedee:
Agree completely, i was just lobbing up some of the arguments the BB guy may come up with , forewarned is forearmed so to speak. i may be a BB Admin but i am a commited WM user myself.
[General Topics] MultiMatt:
I appreciate everyone's input thus far! It will be an interesting discussion Friday, that's for sure! I fully expect for it to be civil, yet it will be good for me to have qualitative info on the competition.

It will be interesting to see what direction the conversation will go. Certain things are not possible on the iPhone without jailbreaking it, so if the iPhone guy tries to go there, he will be negating the argument that the iPhone just works! :) The average user is not going to risk jailbreaking their device (or even want to try regardless of risk because they have no clue!).

So, if we go down the road of tweaking devices like most geeks would do (and not the general public), I think that WM wins out for reasons already mentioned - it's been around a long time, and great sites like XDA-Developers create a resource that allows you to tweak your WM device to your heart's content!

Matt

Windows Mobile Louisville
[General Topics] fallenczar:
Well to be brutally honest the only real arguments that you have are 1 and 4 of the owziee's post.

the iphone guy will try to whoop your ass on the multimedia aspects of the device, multi touch, and a useful accelerometer and the ease of obtaining applications on a stock device.

When you start to talk about 'Tweaking" you have already conceded that WM is less accessible than the other 2 OS in its stock form, your iphone buddy could remind you that jailbreaking is to iphone what custom roms are to WM, they both add value to your device.

One More thing i'd line to point out here is that contrary to your belief, jailbreaking is in fact a piece of cake.
[General Topics] gonzo8898:
fyi

After you jailbreak an iphone you can have copy and paste in the browser after you install the c&p program.
[General Topics] Techvir:
FLowness of the interface

Can some one comment on the flowness of the interface between iphone and HTC HD

I have used WM and iphone but the flowness of the interface of WM comes no where near that of iphone. Also relatively iphone is much more faster, even with many app installed ( including jail broken ones) .

Forgetting all other features how does both these platforms compare in this feature
[General Topics] jeenyus:
I love my QWERTY keyboards, BB has it, but iPhone doesn't.
[General Topics] bemymonkey:
But WM ROM upgrades don't die as soon as the manufacturer releases an update for the device - you're not forced to upgrade to a version that de-jailbreaks your phone. As far as I know, this _is_ the case on the iPhone...

Also, a WM ROM upgrade is not needed to run certain software (unless you're trying to install a WM6 only program on WM5), or to get certain functions - you can install most software and/or functions with simple cab files or installers on the stock ROMs without problems at all.
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
Thanks :)

Just tell the folks "as soon as Windows Mobile manufacturers start producing devices with capacitive screens, the advantage of browsing the Web on the iPhone (assuming running the latest Opera Mobile on Windows Mobile) will be no more" :)
[General Topics] MultiMatt:
You are absolutely correct, and I anticipate that. Given that the iPhone is an iPod with a phone attached, I would have to have a Zune with a phone attached to even come close on the multimedia aspects. I'm prepared to acknowledge that iPhone has an advantage there...

Okay, so jailbreaking might not be that hard, but let's consider the audience here. Let's go with the common denominator, the average Joe (Joe the Plummer! Ha! Ha!). Regardless of how easy techy people might think it is, the average person has no interest in screwing with their warranty and doing such a thing to their several hundred dollar phone. I know several people here at work who have iPhones and 1.) they have no idea what jailbreaking is, and 2.) once I told them what it would do, they expressed no interest in doing such a thing. Similar to the multitudes of Windows Phone users that I know - the majority of them are not interested in changing out their ROM unless it comes from the carrier.

My point being, I will argue that we need to keep custom ROMS and Jailbreaking out of it, and discuss what can be done without those in the discussion! How does that change the playing field?!
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
All new iPhone upgrades are cracked in, in most cases, days.
[General Topics] oic0:
The biggest advantage of WM is the sheer number of devices it comes on. You can buy a phone that fits your needs rather than compromising. Want a keyboard? no problem. Want a HUGE screen? no problem. Want a tiny screen on a tiny device? no problem! Whatever you could wan't has probably already been made.

Just don't mention that for the new versions of WM, Microsoft is trying to do away with that.
[General Topics] owziee:
The iphone isn't better for multimedia.... Only when running games and certain apps on the device itself, otherwise it sucks in comparision when it comes to the hardware.

Cameras, Photos, Video recording quality + video calls etc + wm devices more often have better quality displays (higher resolution) & bigger when it comes to the Touch HD. Ok, iphone have multitouch but personally I don't care about it...
[General Topics] bemymonkey:
But as far as I know, you can't choose _not_ to upgrade, can you?

On WM you can just keep your old ROM as long as you're satisfied with it...
[General Topics] dustinmcd:
I think the iPhone's app store is both a strength and a weakness in its case.

Filtering apps and games for quality is a great way to make sure the phone "just works" for all users. If this is all that Apple did, the only argument against it would be arbitrary. However, Apple is also denying apps they deem "too similar" to Apple apps and those they feel are in bad taste. So if someone (say Opera) makes a better browser, too bad you have Safari for that. And if you want a fart-noise generator, it depends on if it is found to be "offensive" by some anonymous panel.

Also, comparing a jail-broken iphone to a stock (under warranty) windows phone is apples to oranges imo.
[General Topics] gonzo8898:
more iphone info for you guys

You can choose not to update the firmware on the iphone. You can turn the feature off in itunes that trys to update and if it asks you can simply hit no. And to my knowledge you can put on older firmwares (like 2.0 instead of 2.1) after you updated if you like a previous version.
[General Topics] fallenczar:
You can choose to ignore any update that you want to ignore.

Sorry, but i can never understand why people want to compare OS's.

These 3 different platforms are meant for different types of people.

You have highlighted this thing in your post brilliantly.

Your Average Joe is not interested in Hacking or tweaking his phone.

if he wants a multimedia phone, he'll pick up the iphone.

if he wants to edit documents, be connected to an exchange server - WM is what he'll choose.

If its emails and Txt that are his priority then he'll go with a blackberry.

this actually is the biggest strength of WM and also the cause of its letdown

Multimedia -

Audio - All MSM based devices have random clicks and pauses.

Video Playback - No 3rd party GPU Acceleration, have a WVGA device, you can still only playback qvga video.

Camera and Video Recording -for htc - Higher MP means More Crappy pics. Period.

Sorry, You Are Wrong.

exactly, The Best way to Compare a Stock Device is to Compare it with a Stock Device.

No 3rd party Apps. No Jailbreaking. Nothing
[General Topics] andrey08:
my views are the following:

Iphone/itouch: talent - media

great devices out of the box that dazzle with pretty animations. over time this wears off. Then you are left with a device that a developer cant be free in making programs for or porting programs. End result is you are left waiting for features from apple/jailbreak.

Out of the box with no extra software the device is a fancy web browser and a dumb-smartphone-pda with focus on multimedia. Also you are stuck with 2 form factors

Blackberries: talent - email

great devices for email and email security. Most programs are not optimized for STORM finger friendliness. Its a smart phone that just works for business.

Also you are stuck with the blackberry form factor. Great for fleet applications. Out of the box it can do a little of everything but mostly messaging/email

WMobile: talent - YOU - its a jack of all trades you decide on how it will work for you.

Think of it as an open platform. with enough time/effort you can make it act how you want not how BB Apple want you to use the device. out of the box experience depends on who you bought it from. If pure bare bones its experience is more capable then Apple in non media, but cant compete with email from BB. if from say HTC then its stronger in Media and if ranked between pure business and Fun its in the middle. where pure business is BB and fun is Apple.

I will say that if you have wm WITH A KEYBOARD you will escape much of the confusion of what SIP to use and will have a capable and responsive device.

WM's availability on any form factor is definitely a strength, as well as vendor customization.

also for fun take a look at MEIZU iphoen clone - its running Windows CE a cousin of WM. :)

Android: talent - free and runs on anything

to me this is the only serious threat to WM. Its open and its free.

with time it will have lots of Apps. and imagine if the Chinese manufacturers start putting it on every device.....:confused: yikes

result cheap phone with an os that has apps.
[General Topics] MultiMatt:
Lunch

Today, I had lunch with the folks who will be joining me in this discussion. The moderator wanted to set some ground rules and ensure we stay on topic within the allotted timeframe of the meeting.

Great bunch of guys - the Blackberry user has always been a BB user (Palm previously). The iPhone user was a WM user up until several months ago. He said he lusts the Touch Pro, but said he's sticking with iPhone for the next 20 months of his contract! The moderator and one other guy who was there both had iPhones as well, but are also previous Windows Mobile users, so the discussion was very civil and informative.

It was interesting to hear them openly speak of the shortcomings that bugged them about the iPhone - most of which have been brought up in this thread! None of them have jailbroken their devices, which is quite interesting, as they are all serious IT guys...!

Interestingly enough, the majority of discussion was around iPhone and WM, and we hardly talked about Blackberry! They'll all get equal time at Friday's throwdown, but today, all eyes were upon two out of three..!

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in with some great info on this thread!

Matt
[General Topics] surur:
iPhone

No cut and paste

No a2dp

No bluetooth OBEX

No GPS turn by turn navigation

No high resolution screens

No big screens (HD 3.8 inch, Advatage 5 inch, Toshiba TG01 4.1)

No small screens for easy pocketability

No removable battery

Apps blocked by Apple (like alternate browsers)

No ability to change the UI.

No ability to play video thats not mp4

No choice of form factors

Cant be used with normal gloves on.

Doesnt work well with long nails

Apps cant interoperate well (cant share same file system)

Limited carriers

Data plan required.

no hard writing recognition.

Cant side-load media without itunes.

No disk mode.

Does not support tethering

no MMS

Can not forward SMS messages

Can not record phone calls.

Can not multi-task 3rd party apps.

only 2 megapixel fixed focus camera with no flash.

No video recording.

..... And many many more...

(My god, is the iPhone crippled or what!?!)

Blackberry

Low res screens

java apps

thick phones

have to have blackberry subsciption.

only one touch screen model thats poorly reviewed

Surur
[General Topics] Schooleydoo:
I read this a few weeks ago, there may be something there to give you a couple of ideas...

http://www.iphonelife.com/node/179
[General Topics] Bodisson:
Strange how small is a number of people who mention Blackberry.... :)

IMHO, what you really should compare are out-of-the-box devices, on same carrier (if possible) and same or very simmilar data plan. Because without data plan all of these devices are just partly usable.

Everything else is kind of tweaking, isn't it? ;)

Ah, I have never used iPhone, am using Blackberry Pearl for 2 years and WM since Dell Axim 30...
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
And gaming, and web browsing.
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
Yeah, I also use a BB 8800 as my "work" email device - quick keyboard, very good battery life, reliable, great outdoor visibility (unlike most WinMo phones), durability etc.
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
Prpbablyu because it's not a "fan" machine / platform, just a "boring" tool, which does its job but can't be really used for, say, gaming. iPhone, on the other hand, has a lot of die-hard fans and fanboys (so does WinMo - to a much lesser extent).
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
Yeah, thanks for the link (that's also my article). I plan to publish Part II (and so on) later.
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
As with the BB and, as far as most models (exceptions: Omnia, Athena, s310) are concerned, WinMo. This is one of the main reasons I use a Symbian phone as my main phone and won't likely to switch to any of the other platforms.
[General Topics] TheChampJT:
BlackBerry FTW!
[General Topics] surur:
I guess you have been playing with your Nokia and iPhone so long you missed the In Call Recording feature on the HTC Touch HD, which has been backported to other devices.

Additionally, due to the diversity of the platform, features found on only a few phones do count, as if that feature is important to you you can buy that handset, vs with the iPhone you are completely stuck with what you are given.

The diversity of handsets and features are a feature of WM.

Surur
[General Topics] Schooleydoo:
Small world :)

Will look out for the updates, I found it invaluable when first getting to grips with the iPhone after so many years with WM.
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
Thanks for bringing this question up! Do you know of other, working platform than some (not all) ROM versions of the Touch HD, Kaiser and Raphael (CDMA-specific thread HERE; reported success with for example the new 5.05 leaked WWE ROM?)

On my HTC Universal running Tomal 8.5 WM 6.1 (tested with the plain registry import, the original CAB file linked to in the first post of the Kaiser thread and Monx’s repack), it doesn’t work. The second did show up the “Record conversation” menu item while talking; the third didn’t at all. Nevertheless, nothing resulted in recording the other party, other than the sound bleeding from the speaker.
[General Topics] daspost:
WM plans can be less expensive

Since there are more choices with carriers, plans and devices with WM, you can find a plan that fits your budget. With iPhone, your stuck with a pretty hefty monthly bill.
[General Topics] Menneisyys:
Yes, in the States. In many other countries, however, you can purchase the iPhone for a lot more (about US$ 400) - and can pay, say, US$ 8 for the cheapest voice-only plan. And, by yellowsn0wing the phone, you can use it with any SIM. That is, there are ways to avoid having to pay a lot of $$$ for the expensive (default) voice + data plan offered by most iPhone resellers

BTW, this is how I purchased mine. I've already had an unlimited data plan with Vodafone and, in general, I very-very infrequently call anyone (and if I do, I tend to use my work phone, where it's free ;) ); that is, I simply coulnd't made use of the 200 / 400 minutes' $40/$60 voice (+2/3G data) plan. Therefore, I went for getting the iPhone 3G for about $400 (in today's course) and subscribed to a $8 voice plan, which I, then, quickly switched to my alredy-existing BlackBerry subscription with the same wireless operator (T-Mo).
[General Topics] Carlo626:
hi Menneisyys can you report your impression on this (free) program; Turbo Mobile Event ( http://www.turboirc.com/ppc/ ) ? it has worked very well for me since I got the WM device and can't find any other program than can record both side of a telephone conversation so clearly and easy

thanks.bye
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Scott:
Has anyone tried MR2?

http://www.pcdphones.com/phone_downloads.aspx?bid=89&cid=1&mid=287&carrier=Verizon Wireless
[Mogul, XV6800 General] drewcam888:
I think something in the update locks out the aGPS fix. But I don't know much else. I have had to tell people to downgrade to get the gps to work after going to MR2.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Scott:
hmmmmm, interesting. I would kill to ge the Titan back so I can see what this thing is all about.

From what I have read, they are going to lockdown aGPS and open up regular GPS.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] drewcam888:
edit: wrong post
[Mogul, XV6800 General] segadc:
I wish someone is brave enough to download MR2. I like MR1 and installing the Valhalla cab was simple. Wondering if I can do the same with MR2.

edit: Looks like the cab does not work with MR2

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=424387&page=49
[Mogul, XV6800 General] drewcam888:
Verizon updates mostly restrict the phone. Some have tried the MR2 update and say it kills the agps. So just stay with MR1 or go custom.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] crobs808:
MR2 works with aGPS as long as you use GC's fix, however, you will not have internet sharing, and other options. I would use DCD 3.2.6
[Mogul, XV6800 General] jsajczuk:
i've downloaded and used MR2 and everything stills works Vahalla Server, google maps, live search aMAZE GPS, internet sharing, wifiRouter, etc.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] thundaar2000:
I just got a replacement phone because of reception problems, and it has MR2 preinstalled. Also everything I have installed as post above, works fine...

I asked tech support about it and they said they didn't know the differences from MR1. That was the answer I expected.... They also said there will be another update real soon called MR3. Although real soon in verizon language could be 6 months :D

I wonder what this is all about?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] drewcam888:
I kinda doubt a MR3 update since they stopped selling the xv6800
[G1 General] simontoyou:
Has the refund button been removed? I can only uninstall.

I can't refund 3 games I bought (and don't like/want).

It kind of happened like this:

1. Tried downloading 3 games via Market.

2. Downloads wouldn't start, had to cancel download which I did by clicking 'refund.'

3. I find out that I had to update payment information on Google Checkout, so I did that.

4. Tried downloading the same 3 games, it worked.

5. Found out I didn't like them.

6. Tried to refund again but the refund button isn't there anymore.
[G1 General] simontoyou:
Nevermind, I read the return policy.

I just got robbed.
[G1 General] marioiscoool:
wat happened? i dont wanna run into this
[G1 General] dutman:
Mario what had happened was that you may only download an app once before you get your refund. If you download the same app again, you won't get a refund. But I don't understand why he would try to download the same games if he said he didn't like/want them.
[G1 General] marioiscoool:
oh ok.. he didnt try to download it again, the first time he attempted, it failed, so he pressed refund. then downloaded it again and tried it for the first time and couldnt get refuded..
[XPERIA X1 General] Tri3Dent:
Hi there,

Does anyone know if it is possible to have the phone turn off the data/3g portion when not used in X amount of minutes? I know for WIFI it is possible but not sure if data/3g is possible?

Also, it seems when i have wifi and data on, the phone would use 3g over the wifi in OPERA or even updating weather in SPB mobile shell. Is this normal? Anyway to make it so WIFI is first priority over 3G?

Thanks
[XPERIA X1 General] chetzy:
not normal, the phone should use the wifi first then the 3G.

ps. would be cool if an app or registry hack could switch off 3G when not in use.
[XPERIA X1 General] dpmcalli:
I get the same issue with the WiFi not being prefered with SPB weather and also a hotmail email account. I was going to play with "NoData" but would be interested if theres a better solution
[XPERIA X1 General] gundamboy:
Couldn't find a better solution, I made sure to turn of HSDPA in the phone settings, change my network to GSM, then use "NoData" because I don't have a data plan. So far no extra charges.
[XPERIA X1 General] minglee:
Try the

GB-SOFT GPRS Tweak (EDGE+UMTS+3G) for WM6.1 - HTC Diamond

found in http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=407264

I installed it on my Xperia and it worked.
[XPERIA X1 General] danielherrero:
try bandswitch.....
[XPERIA X1 General] Tri3Dent:
Does turning off/on the data/3g part harm the hardware in any way?