yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[XPERIA X1 General] michaelthemage:
Yes, that is correct: this is a PHONE you hold up to your face/ear and not a fraking router or laptop!

And I doubt that any phone should get more then just 'warm'!

I play music via Stereo Bluetooth and you don't want to put that phone near your ear. It is even going to be quite hot in your hand!

This is just not acceptable!

And as a little remark, getting this crap phone hot is quite an ISSUE because it could be one of the reasons why so many phones get cracks!!! Heating up this tiny side where it mostly cracks (volume key!) and cooling down and heating up.... can surely be a reason for this cracking! Just a thought....a serious one!
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
From post #27:

"The device becomes unstable and erratic, loses sound, and the battery continues to heat."

I doubt this is how "it is intended to work".

My last comment in this thread - those replies that showed they had actually tested the device within the parameters I described were very useful. Thanks to them :)

I suppose it's human nature to assault straw men, try to shoot the messenger etc, but it doesn't address the issue. I've been pleasantly surprised at the relatively small number of such posts ... again, this emphasises the value of xda-devs :)
[XPERIA X1 General] XavierGr:
First of all I didn't assault you. I am just saying my opinion.

Is heat from the phone inconvenient? Yes, I can agree on that. In my experience though it never encumbrances the function of the device.

Hell, one time I was doing a power stress test to see how many amps it will consume. I started a cpu intensive gps application, wifi, youtube and hTorch at full brightness. It managed to consume 700mAh of power, more than the charging circuitry could give. Sure it got very very hot, but I didn't see any jerk ups.
[XPERIA X1 General] maedox:
How is 110° F "pretty darn hot"? It's barely hotter than your body temperature. I would consider it a normal temperature for a high performance device like the Xperia. In my opinion it's not too hot until it is unpleasent to hold in your hand or pocket etc. Is it that hot?

As someone pointed out earlier, are we sure it doesn't just feel hot because of the thermal properties of the metal cover?
[XPERIA X1 General] virtuvas:
If someone wants to really examine this problem (and assuming there are no s/w instability issues involved - afaik only the first poster claims so!) a more scientific and less subjective approach must be followed. I think a range of variables must be measured:

temp on the brushed alloy cover via a IR digital thermometre (RadioShack 20euro max)

ambient temp in the room/space you use the phone (same thermometre, aimed at office desk or car dash...)

placement of phone (battery flat on a tabletop vs sitting freely on a light(ish) cradle can make a big difference since flat on a surface it wont dissipate heat as well but again depends on materials)

apps running and CPU load (obviously gps will be used outside not in the office, wifi apps can be polling too frequently and up the temps in my experience)

ideally temps on the earpiece (using the same thermometre)

Then do the same thing on another phone you consider higher than the X1 (BUT WITH THE BATTERY COVER OFF this time, measuring temps on the battery itself!)

As an engineer I think the device is OK, just redefining user expectations by being warmer than usual.

my .02euro
[XPERIA X1 General] Angelusz:
I've read the first two pages of this thread and then got bored of the OP bashing everyone who doesn't do exactly as he wants. In my opinion, not a good way to use a forum.

As an on-topic addition to my post. I've used GPS (With TomTom on, known as an energy-sucker) while on charge for over three hours without pause. When I took my X1 out, the battery was 100% charged and nice and comfortably warm to the touch, nowhere near hot.

I do have a lot of applications installed and used Itje's touch-it 3.5 RC1 at the time of above situation.

That is the best example I've got; at times I have noticed heating up while using WiFi for extended periods of time, but never so hot it'd be uncomfortable to touch and never have I had anything on the phone start to screw up.
[XPERIA X1 General] leobox1:
i think X1 is hotter than the usual phone.. especially when talking or using applications.. well after all there is a CPU inside and CPU always get hot
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
I had intended to leave this thread as I thought it was fairly well exhausted, but a PM suggested I reprise that view, so:

@XavierGr

I didn't say "you assaulted me", I said it was human nature for people to assault straw men. Your reply there seems a good example of that. And no, I didn't "bash anyone who didn't do exactly as I wanted", I simply tried to get precise answers to a precise question - many people did test just that and I've thanked them for it. This is using the forum as properly as any issue. Those who addressed some other question are welcome to do so, but doing this doesn't resolve the issue - it's simply irrelevant.

@virtuvas

I did indeed test the device on wifi and GPS while on charge for long periods without the battery cover. I used 3 brand new batteries over a 3 month period before posting. Same results. And unhappily, I don't merely claim malfunction and very uncomfortable, even alarming, heating - this is simply a statement of fact. I really don't want the problem I've posted, trust me there ...

No-one seems to have commented on the small fleet of previously-owned devices I've listed. None of them exhibited this behaviour at all within exactly the same parameters. Of course they use lesser-powered CPU's and had less RAM to refresh. That was the point of my post. The X1 battery is underpowered for it's CPU and RAM. That's why it heats up so on charge when chewing power for wifi or GPS.

Obviously, the question of faulty battery, faulty specific device or design flaw was the crux of this. After 3 batteries and many comments in other threads about overheating, it was time to ask for comparisons of handsets within specified parameters - so I did.

The replies have been mostly very useful and to the point. I don't mind at all that you may disagree, only that my exact question is answered. Testing further with thermometers etc. is very useful, if the results are listed with the parameters of the tests. I hope you do test further.

The only comment I've seen on this from SE came from another forum, where the person had asked SE about battery heating, and the quoted email reply from SE was "perform a hard reset and then charge for 12 hours". That suggests to me that SE are aware of this tendency.
[XPERIA X1 General] psp786:
are you serious what is up with your x1

my x1 over heats aswell but not as much as your guys
[XPERIA X1 General] XavierGr:
Sorry but I have to call this a baseless assumption.

There are quite many HTC devices with X1s specifications:

Diamond, Touch Pro and Touch HD all share the same SoC (cpu, ram etc) with the X1.

Touch Pro and Touch HD (iirc) have approximately the same battery capacity with X1.

All these units share nearly the same current consumption, and usage patterns show similar results.

So, the hardware is nearly identical only the form factor is considerably modified. I still think that the heating problem is highlithed by X1s aluminum battery cover compared to other devices.
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
"... heating problem is highlighted by X1s aluminum battery cover compared to other devices" - even with the cover removed ? Tested that (many times), didn't work. This prompted me to wonder if the re-charging circuitry was under-designed or something ... that's why I asked for other experiences with re-charging while under wifi or GPS load.

Well, I'm trying this:

http://shop.eten.hu/mugen-power-son...00mah-extended-replacement-battery-p-522.html

As from my 1st post - Mugen is a reliable brand and shop.eten.hu is a reliable retailer. This turned up earlier than I had anticipated :)

Not expensive to see if it resolves the problem.
[XPERIA X1 General] XavierGr:
So you removed the battery cover from X1 and e.g Touch HD (similar specifications) and the Touch HD was much cooler?

Oh nice find, wonderful news. I am going to upgrade at some point too, if this battery starts deteriorating.
[XPERIA X1 General] stepw:
I have a touch HD and a P3600 (without *i*) and both exhibit the heating problem to some extent. This has never caused stability issues though and the batteries never become burning hot.

Although I did not specifically compare the battery temperature on each unit after prolonged wi-fi and/or gps usage while charging and while discharging, subjectively they become hotter when battery is being charged. While battery is clearly a major contributor, other parts (such as radio and LCD controllers) could be causing temperature increase after continuous use and high power consumption. Moreover factors such as remaining battery power level (e.g. full, half-full, almost empty) and charge current (USB vs. mains vs. car charger) may provoke temperature fluctuations.

I have also noticed that on many HTC manufactured devices unit temperature rises very quickly when the unit is in bootloader mode, suppposedly powersaving is not enabled then and consumption is pretty high. In fact both of my devices get even hotter if left charging in bootloader/SPL mode for an hour than if they were used actively with wi-fi or gps radio on for the same period.

As wi-fi and gps consumption may vary a LOT depending on numerous factors, I think it may be reasonable to compare the temperature of various units in bootloader mode for a period of time. The results are more likely to be consistent across the board, but may also vary depending on SPL version, etc...

If X1 owners are willing to give this a try, here's what I'd suggest to try to obtain more consistent results:

1. Turn the unit off, charge the battery until it's fully charged, then remove it and keep both the unit and the battery at the room temperature for 1h

2. Put the battery in, turn the unit on, boot to OS, determine the temperature with your favorite software (I recommend HTC's battery.exe, see http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=416334)

3. Repeat step 1

4. Put the battery in, turn the unit on, boot to SPL, keep it running for 1h, then reboot in OS, measure the temperature

The same measurements can be repeated with empty battery, with the battery cover and without it, as well as with USB or mains charger connected and not connected to determine the range or temperature fluctutations in different conditions.

The results are likely to be a lot more consistent than when comparing temperatures after wi-fi and gps usage.

I'd agree with XavierGr that X1 form factor and choice of material is likely to be the cause of overheating not as noticeable in other similar devices.
[XPERIA X1 General] alias_neo:
Meh

My Xperia heats up no more than my Nokia N95 or my iPhone which are used just as much if not more.

I'm also not surprised that the battery gets warm, especially when being drained, it's a common "feature" of Lithium-Polymer batteries and is a side effect of having the pleasure of such a high capacity battery. In fact, the temperature is infact used in some devices (laptop batteries) for charge termination.

Maybe read this article from the IEEE? And enlighten yourself on how the temperature affects the cycle performance of a Lithium Polymer battery.

If you want to feel "hot" you should feel the batties for the starter of my Nitro remote Control buggy after about the same charge/time ratio.

"Drop it like it's hot" comes to mind.

My Xperia is warm, but hardly bothersome, infact in the cold British weather it serves the great purpose of warming my hand slightly when I'm chatting on the phone, which when holding my iphone and talking would be almost frost bitten.
[XPERIA X1 General] Sauge:
well i recently started using my X1i a bit as wifi router using wmwifirouter app my first suprise, dont ask my how, it acually shows battery temperature

and i noticed it really eats a lot of power i mean A LOT basically if i leave my display on and having wifi on + on my wall charger it acually shows that its charging but it isnt battery just keep depleating

any via that temperature sensor or whatever my record is about 52°C it hot
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
I've used the X1 for long hours on charge with the battery cover off and both wifi and GPS on. I've done this about a dozen times in the last few months (in the hope that the battery would stay cool enough to reach a stable state).

No luck, I'm afraid - the battery just kept heating to the point where I turned wifi and GPS off for fear of potential destruction, at least of the battery (SIM card too).

I don't have a Touch HD (no UMTS 850Mhz), so I can't comment.

The previous PDA's I've owned all became warm when on charge and under wifi/GPS load for long periods ... but never hot as does the X1.

The 1800mAH Mugen battery replacement is ordered - I think no stock though for about 10 days.
[XPERIA X1 General] Sfkn2:
Please keep us updated with how the Mugen battery is.
[XPERIA X1 General] globetrotter2:
I think you're just trolling. Seriously, you can't be that retarded. Destruction? Explosion? :rolleyes:
[XPERIA X1 General] Sfkn2:
http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2007/11/28/korean-man-killed-by-exploding-cellphone/

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_17210.aspx

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009294781
[XPERIA X1 General] globetrotter2:
You totally missed the point, good job.
[XPERIA X1 General] _Macko_:
I often drive a car over 4 hours having X1a charged, listening to music (wmplayer), using GPS at a time and it's not too hot. Whats worse, in winter my X1 is additionally warmed by car air condition, being exposed directly to an air flow. Of course it becomes quite warm, but it is normal regarding physics. The metal case will certainly warmer than plastic and it is good because of better battery cooling. I havnt noticed any problems with overheating ever.
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
I'm not clear here - is the x1a on car charge and remains on car charge for those 4 hours while using GPS for this same period ?
[XPERIA X1 General] _Macko_:
Yes, it remains charged all time.
[XPERIA X1 General] PhreaQstar:
'Yes, i completely agree that the phone becomes a bit HOT when using WiFi/GPS while on charger, and really this scared me for a while.

it even get's hotter when using WiFi/GPS and charging through USB Port of a PC!'

I have the same problem. Not that it gets extremely hot but it deffenetly heats up. I wonder what it will do in the long run!
[XPERIA X1 General] Sfkn2:
And you totally missed my point. :rolleyes:
[XPERIA X1 General] alias_neo:
Lol

It's not total paranoia to be worried about of potential explosion of these Lithium Polymer batteries, it is a known down side to the technology, and infact normal operation will cause them to hear up.

If you know anything about Engineering and Technology you'll know this. If not, then maybe if you know anything about chemistry, you'll know that Lithium is a group one metal and is highly volatile. (Although the least volatile of group one metals).

Maybe a few more people should read the paper I linked from IEEE written by Mistubishi Chemical Corp.

It gives a good understanding of the technology and how it works, and how the temperatures affect the performance. It's an interesting read (for an Engineer) non the less.

That being said, being "too worried" about the battery exploding is paranoia, it's possible, as with any Lithium Polymer cell, but it's unlikely, and if it's getting this hot, it's not going to be anywhere it's going to cause you harm (in your pocket) ... nothing it could be doing there would cause it to heat this much....If not, then it's probably on charge, in which case, if it explodes, no harm done, just get a warranty replacement.

P.S. The paper states about how they take the cells up to 100C for testing, so if they don't "explode" at this temperature, it's unlikely you'll ever get it hot enough to cause harm during normal operation.
[XPERIA X1 General] XavierGr:
How hot are we talking about? Any case you could measure the temperature? I highly doubt that it is so hot that you can't touch it directly for a long period of time. If it is THAT hot that can cause you pain then yes something is seriously ****ed up with your X1, if not then relax.
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
I've aquired the Mugen 1800mAH X1 battery (BST-41), installed it and gone through the charge/recharge cycle 3 times - ie. charge it full for > 8 hours, drain to about 20% and re-charge > 8 hours

It seems to have stabilised now and gives an improvement overnight on standby of about 20% in battery life. Obviously, I cannot yet comment on longevity (6 months to a year for that)

Does using a more powerful battery (1800mAH vs 1500mAH) alter the overheating equation when on constant charge under wifi or GPS load for long periods (>3 hours, up to 8 hours tested) ?

The answer here, so far, is YES. I'm using a freeware program - WMMinibattery - that gives a temperature measurement. Of course, I don't know the accuracy of the absolute temp report without frigging around with thermometers etc, but the relativity of reports between the 1500mAH and 1800mAH should be valid under exactly the same test conditions

Under exactly these same test conditions, temp reports are:

1500mAH 43.6 C; 1800mAH 26.1 C

These results have been repeated 4 times now, so I'm satisfied that relativity is accurate and reliable. As a further comparison, the Polaris reports a range between 32 and 34 C under exactly the same conditions with exactly the same WMMinibattery program

With the aluminium back cover on and the device in a leather case, the X1 now warms and stabilises while on charge under wifi and GPS load for long periods, using either the wall charger or the car charger without becoming erratic or unstable. The problem seems to be modulated now and the degree of warming to stabilisation point is considerably less to the touch than with the standard 1500mAH battery.

For those who doubt the risk of real damage with an overheating battery I've attached a JPG of Manufacturer's Warning.

For those who doubt that such overheating may occur, I suggest you actually test this by keeping the device on continuous charge while under continuous load from either wifi or GPS (or both together) for long periods (> 1 or 2 hours at least, preferably >6 hours). This is called empiricism and is the hard core of science and engineering

GPS seems to consume the most power (I'm using radio 1.11.25.76)
[XPERIA X1 General] comeradealexi:
so u saying the stock battery is bad?

also where did u get that 1800 battery?
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
1) the standard 1500mAH battery is underpowered for use in the conditions I've described (on continuous charge while under continuous load from either wifi, GPS or both for long periods > say, 4 hours)

2) http://shop.eten.hu/advanced_search...Csid=90624bc76e78aa0607f33c46171d6f21&x=0&y=0

This link has been posted quite a few times
[XPERIA X1 General] alex_mib:
Guys,

maybe it gonna be a bit off topic, but it relates to battery issues also.

I've noticed that when my battery is almost dry the phone switches off the radio, so i cant make any calls, then if i continue to use it - it shuts down.

Several times it happened on the go, so i had just car charger.

I connected car charger to the phone and it won't start! Sometimes power button is lit and thats it! It was connected for 1-2 hours and i could not turn it on! When i came back home, i plugged home charger and it still has to stay several minutes before i could turn the phone on. (first, power button is on for several minutes, then couple of minutes side lights are blinking slowly red, and ONLY THEN the phone reacts to my attempts to turn it on!)

Did anybody had the same problem? Say, if your battery is dead and the phone shuts down, you plug it in - then, can you turn it back on immediately???
[XPERIA X1 General] djdanger:
I agree with ianl888 as I driver all day and use gps and wifi, and the battery get's hot. I had TYTN II aswell but with them when it got hot when using GPS,WiFi the devices would stop charging the battery till it cool down, couldn,t use that idea aswell for X1 ??
[XPERIA X1 General] fards:
this is a well known erm "feature" ??

you need more than the power that a USB can put out to kickstart a totally flat battery. Plug it into a wall charger and leave it for 5 minutes and all is well.
[XPERIA X1 General] Loco5150:
It is the same problem with HTC TOUCH and HTC TOUCH PRO. Devices get hot when using data/gps etc, some more than others.

Its a chipset issue, the Qualcomm chipset is junk.
[XPERIA X1 General] alex_mib:
So there is no way charging it from car charger when the battery is dead?
[XPERIA X1 General] XavierGr:
The car charger can deliver enough juice (>500mA) to charge it properly. Many PC USB ports though fail to do that, (or X1 fails to negotiate properly to ask for more juice from the USB port).
[XPERIA X1 General] Deetz:
If you want to see the battery get insanely hot have it plugged in, and broadcasting wifi while using a HSDPA. It gets hot to the touch and if I accidentally leave the screen on the battery will in fact die even though it is plugged into the wall. I will have to look into the replacement battery. It is crazy that they will charge so much for a phone and then skimp on the battery like this.

I swore I would not be a 1st generation beta tester for a phone but damnit the sexy big screen and keyboard sold me on it :(

Also I have purchased this replacement battery. I like my phone and I like it about 100x more since getting the cooked ROM up and running today :)
[XPERIA X1 General] alex_mib:
So, if car charger CAN deliver enough juice, then why it doenst do that? Is there smth wrong with actual charger or cable?
[XPERIA X1 General] anaadoul:
i agree that either one of them will make it heat up. But!

how come you use both at the same time?

access point inside the car?
[XPERIA X1 General] XavierGr:
It should. A car charger compared to an AC charger shouldn't have any functional differences. The original AC charger is rated at 700mA (I use an unofficial rated at 1000mA), most car chargers (I don't know about the official) can deliver easily 1000mA (more than enough).
[XPERIA X1 General] ianl8888:
A simple example, possibly a common experience, could be GoogleMaps or maybe Windows LiveSearch ... they need both wifi (or HSDPA) and GPS simultaneously. Run that while on charge for say, > 4hours with the 1500mAH standard battery.

When field mapping, I'm using high-end survey/geological programs that can use both services. Often the field exercise takes 8-10 continuous hours. When wifi is unavailable, HSDPA has to suffice ... but even GPS by itself will rapidly overheat the 1500mAH battery while on continuous charge.

So far, the 1800mAH Mugen battery has stabilised it's temperature within 20 minutes and remains at that point for the rest of the day while on charge in the vehicle under continuous GPS load.
[XPERIA X1 General] johnchan78:
Actually, I want to ask... is the temperature being reported by the battery itself or the X1's own thermometer?

There is one thing i learnt before, that sometimes, the internals might actually be HOTTER when the external temperature is cooler. Basically, consider a heatsink... just because the heatsink is cooler using a particular design, doesn't mean the CPU is actually running cooler... it could be that the headsink's design is less efficient, so it cannot transfer the heat from the CPU to the heatsink well.

One more thing... a lot of these Mugen/Momax/etc. batteries say they are Li-ION as opposed to the stock battery Li-POLY. You know that Li-POLY is much safer and less chance of explosion, etc.?

But I don't know if Li-ION runs cooler than Li-POLY normally. Maybe some battery expert could answer that for us! But I know that once you have thermal runaway (basically, the battery gets so hot at that point, the internal chemical reaction is too far gone, there is no method for it to cool down enough) that Li-ION can bulge and explode, while Li-POLY handles it much better.