yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Psyberdude:
I was thinking exactly the same thing. Until recently I was blissfully unaware of this attitude they have... until I read a couple of the general forums and read some of the inferred arrogance they have about "Their" product, as if they invented and own Geocaching!! But in reality it is the community that provides most of the content in the form of cache hides. If it was me running the site, I would not care how or what people use to go geocaching. This excuse they have that the reason is because the data is updated in real time holds no water. Programs like GSAK, which is completely acceptable to them, store an offline database, so how is that different GCzII?? And besides, if a cacher wants to store information and risk missing out on the latest logs or page updates, well that is their problem. Why does GC feel that they need to Nanny them.

On the whole, I think they have done a very good job with the site and I can see why its become the primary caching website and for that I don't mind paying for my premium membership as there is a lot of time and effort, not to mention running cost involved. But they seem to be getting to the point where they want to control everything geocaching. Next thing you know, they will come out with their own browser which you will have to buy in order to use the site without contravening the terms of use.

ok, rant finished. Now I just try to avoid the forums, enjoy geocaching with my son, and try to forget or ignore the politics.

On a more poignant note. I understand that Tom has a lot on his plate, but I for one, and I'm sure others here, would be happy to pay for GCzII, despite its pirate nature. But I would need some assurance that when GC change something, that it gets updated quickly. Hopefully, if Tom decided to go this route and we all paid for it, the income would allow him some extra time to do this.

A second option, which I think has been mentioned here before, would be to have some sort of config file separate from the main program. Rather than being completely open source, perhaps this would allow others here, smarter than I, to be able to correct these errors each time GC changes something, and in that way take the pressure off Tom. Tom could then just concentrate on adding new features from time to time, while still maintaining control over his wonderful applications code.

Just a thought.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] rast62:
Is it possible to get the data from other sites? Like opencaching.de for example
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] TataP22:
yes it's a great idea to implement www.opencaching.de or other pages.. :)
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] t1mh:
Programs like GSAK are acceptable because to effectively use it you have to have a premium membership. It also forces you to get the data the way that GC.com wants you to access the date. In a way that they can handle and support.

The problem with programs like GCzII is that it creates the web traffic of 100's of users every time you do a search and it does not require you to have a premium membership to do it. The pocket queries are run on dedicated servers in a queue based design and the load on those does not affect the load on the web servers.

I wish GCzII and GC.com could figure out a way for people to pay for the service that GCzII provides, I think many people would pay for it. The Trimble app mentioned by their support only works on a few select phones and doesn't work on Windows Mobile. It's also no where no as good as GCzII combined with Google maps.

Has any one used both GCzII and the Iphone app? Which one is better?
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Titus_Andronicus:
You are a funny guy! If that is true, GCzII must also dramaticly improve my phones data rate. In fact GCzII uses the same data as one user making a search. Then it goes on to save bandwidth by saving the info so you dont have to re-download the data next time you want to view the cache.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] t1mh:
I may not understand how GCzII actually works. What you say makes sense. I still think this is using more bandwidth than a typical user. The reason GC.com doesn't like it is because you are now getting the features of a premium membership and not paying for it. On top of that you are using their website without their advertising so they get nothing from you.

I'm not arguing with you. I really like GCzII, I wish that GC.com could workout a deal and make this financially viable for everyone. live.geocaching.com looks interesteing but honestly how many people care where other cachers are at? The core is finding/logging caches and they need to make that work before worrying about silly things like that.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Titus_Andronicus:
BINGO! You hit it on the head with that. We have suggested to GS that they team up with Tom to create a creative cash flow using GCzII. Something like requiring a PM + an API access licence totaling maybe $70/year ($30 for PM +$40 for API access). I would pay that!
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] nsa_sailor:
iTouch and Windows Mobile

My wife just got an iTouch. With Tom Codon's Wifi Internet Sharing app (available on XDA-developers http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=4170499), you should be able to use the iTouch and the iPhone Geocaching app to geocache?
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] wimyv:
I would pay!

Yep! I would be willing to pay this amount as well.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Psyberdude:
I wouldn't, in fact I couldn't. With the exchange rate, that is a LOT of money. I'd be happy to pay a once off fee for the software. $25-$30 seems comparitable for similar mobile software. I'd also have no problem if the software only worked with a premium membership, in other words it checked your username and password for membership prior to downloading anything, but then it would have to be done in conjunction with GC through the API so it didn't break each time they did an update. I don't see why they would not be happy with this solution as it would pretty much gurentee that all the GCzII users had to become premium members. I would imagine most of us are anyway.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Psyberdude:
Ooops, just re-read and realised you were talking about an annual payment, not monthly :)

But still, I think the API access should be part of the Premium Membership I already pay. Charge a once off fee for GCzII, with perhaps the option to pay for additional feature updates, like with normal software, or if you are happy to continue using the version you have, then you don't need to upgrade. Working through the API should avoid these other issues we have, and simply add in a check that you are a premium member in order to use the software. I don't see why GC would be unhappy with that, but I'm guessing things like this have been suggested and rejected by them already.

At the end of the day, I think they are just jealous that this app is so far beyond anything they have come up with in terms of features.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] derlbear:
Well, GCzII works exactly as if you would do the search&download on your own! If you click on search by nearby caches, GCzII opens the website, enters your position, loads the list... When you press "download all", it opens every page and imports the data into GCzII...

Guess what I did before GCzII was there? I searched the caches and opened every page (with Adblock Plus).... and that's EXACTLY the way GCzII works!

So it doesn't need more bandwith when using GCzII... it's just easier because you don't have to open and organize every cache page on your own.. and hey, it's paperless!

But you're true. Why should I buy a premium membership when GCzII does everything I need? I definately would buy a membership if GC.com would support GCzII.. and they wouldn't be as stupid as they are now and let it access their API.

Instead of blaming WM users they should support them.. and they could make money by doing it!

Cheers,

derlbear

Edit: I wouldn't pay 40$ for the access to the API because the API is already there! And I think that they don't have to pay 40$ because I download a few caches. It would be ok if we had to pay the same as trimble or iphone-app users.. and that's it! But I would definately pay for GCzII... but since Tom doesn't want donations, I donated to the xda forum ;-)
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] SdKfz.171:
Well, although it is more than twice the actual premium membership at GS, I should pay it, because it is far cheaper, then paying premium membership and then monthly approximately $ 25 each month for mobile internet connection to go paperless. $ 70 is a price of one full fuel tank, and before I quit smoking, I spent more than this amount monthly for cigarettes. So definitely - it sounds be reasonable.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] gotgrip_com:
Let me know if that happens. So I can switch programs permanently. (Okay, so I'm bitter... I'm just saying that I'm not sold on the "make it difficult if they don't pay" business model. There are a lot of other ways for Groundspeak to keep the lights on.)
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Titus_Andronicus:
Remember, that $70/year is just what I came up with in my head in about 10 sec. If GS gets their marketing department (or whatever) to work, they could likely come up with something even better. As for not paying to access the API because it is already there, it is not a public API like google maps. It is private. They only give access to 'trusted partners' (this should be read as paying costomers). So paying is fine.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] khaytsus:
I still say they should do it similar to other web APIs, including their own iPhone app access..

Non-premium members get 5 queries or something out of the iPhone app, premium members 'unlimited'. I think it should be the same for all users, a generic API which any program uses and is constrained to the limits that GS sets on that API based on membership. They already do this today, it's simply a matter of allowing programs to use this API.

I see no reason why GS should make minimal offerings of the iPhone and "sometime" an Android app and everyone else just use GPX files.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] :
The Load GCz generates is slightly higher than that of a normal user. A person can do the same searches, but is slower than the automated process, especially for 'Download all'.

The Terms of GS are thought to be against services like another caching site, which could go and download all(!) caches in that way.

But the Terms are kept simple, they are complicated enough as they are. So even a 'browser-like program' is seen as a scraper, thus forbidden. But i bet you couldn't determine a GCz-User from a human surfer. The amount of GCz against 'all' users is too small, the resulting load is negligible.

Also you don't get premium features with GCz. You get exactly what you will get on your laptop, if you dare to use it in the wild.

BUT: you are missing the ads. Surfing Sites with an Adblock is often against the rules. Sites get paid from Ads, so you don't have to pay a fee. Imagine everyone using Adblock, Ads would not pay, sites would die.

So Adblock (or GCz) is at least unfair.

Some Solutions were posted in this thread: Premium Access only, Usage fee for GCz (or equivalent API-) access, etc. pp.

But: Has anyone suggested this to GS? And i mean not one. I mean a lot of people. So GS can see there is a market, there is a lot of money and there are users that have influence.

Do not think about GS giving a **** for "help us or we will go away, because you are using our property to get rich". If you think so, go to alternative sites for caching, like opencaching. You will see there is nothing comparable to GC.com, not even close. So your tupperware will rot in the woods if you do not use GC.com. And they know it!

And: i bet they pay a lot of money to analyze the market. And so they know that there are just about 15% of all mobile phones running with Windows.... Most of them are business users, corporate rules do not allow them to use own software i think.

So WM is just not enough money to earn, and we will have a hard time to tell them we are worth it.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Titus_Andronicus:
That is a super idea. Realy, it is just like the live.geocaching.com app. regular member only ger 5 results, PM get as many as they want.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Dogpack:
Changing subjects a bit..

Anyone know how to best look-up caches when you don't have a mobile connection? GPX files are manually loaded to GCzII, but when doing a search by location, I obviously get a connection error. If I go to offline mode, I get the response "Location search has not been implemented yet"

Anyone figure out a workaround?

Is there other software that can easily accommodate this type of search so I can find nearby caches?

I frequent remote areas on a regular basis with limited or lack of cell phone coverage. I usually do my search before I lose connection, but I have a trip to the remote areas of CO, KS and OK coming up this weekend and I know I'll be lacking cell phone connection much of the trip and looking for the best way to find caches in my general vicinity while on the go. "Along a route" GPX file has already been generated, just looking for the best way to use it when no internet connection is available.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] khaytsus:
How about this? Enable GPS, import the GPX, and from the list "Sort closest" assuming you're out in the field ready to cache.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Dogpack:
Genius! I'm not sure why i didn't figure that out. I can always just go to previous cache list and sort again, no need to reload the GPX each time (as that's a slow process).

Thanks!
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] :
Throwing in a thought:

Has anybody thought of a method of counting the users of GCz? I'm thinking of a server-generated random numbered file on Tom's site requested by the GCz-App (and saved) every time you are online.

Would not give any information to Tom, but allow him to see how much (or less:D) people are using his Software. Maybe differentiated by premium/non-premium.

This number could be a proof fo GS that we are enough people to be worth looking after. Or a smash to our dreams;).

Maybe that would give us the power for initiating a petition towards GS?
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] SdKfz.171:
I did, man, I did - two days ago:

Hello Sara,

I’m sorry for the official standpoint of Groundspeak on GCzII. Is there any other way for paperless geocaching on Windows Mobile? I understand the reason for banning GCzII, but even as a premium member I can only export GPX/LOC file, and not the description, hints, and maps (I have no mobile internet, as in Czech Republic it costs around $ 30 a month), so even as a premium member I can’t go paperless geocaching.

Is there a way to make an agreement with GCzII author to make this application available only for Groundspeak Premium members? If yes, then I definitelly go to buy a premium, because no application can beat the features of GCzII.

Kind regards

No reply from GS received yet...
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] SdKfz.171:
Well, it is a brilliant idea, man, and probably can help us in our efforts...

Probably we can craft some e-mail template and everybody interested in can send it to GS - something like "If you will enable GCzII for premium users, I'm going to buy a premium membership..."

But what about Tom? Will he agree to the idea of enabling GCzII features to premium users only?

Although I wrote to GS that I understand their standpoint on GCzII, i don't undestand their dullness. It's the battle they can't win - yes, they can temporarily disable GCzII through some site change, but it is not forever, and if Tom will put the critical config in separate file, it should be unavailable only for a day or two.

In a fact, they only react to GCzII activities, so GCzII is everytime step ahead (although it should not seem like that now). So their stubborness is preventing them to profit from Windows Mobile geocachers. Windows Mobile is 3rd mobile system in Europe according to wmpoweruser.com, so definitelly it is not "negligible market".
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] :
@SdKfz.171:

Yay, that is a good start:D

At least one finds my idea worth thinking of it.

But: Not only you alone and some other users should pass a mail here and there to GS. "We" as a group hopefully not so small in size should stomp on their feet.

If you look closely on the site you posted, "we" are maximum 14% of all european users, and most of them don't cache with their phone. And of those who do, only a few use GCz, i personally know of at least 4 other programs, but i can't imagine the shares between them.

But i believe, in terms of GC.com-Users, WinMo is below 5%, iPhone ranges in the 10%-15% area, then there are a few "others", and the big rest of cachers use a dedicated GPSr.

So until someone gives me some statistics proving me wrong i have to believe WinMo is a negligible market for Groundspeak.

Regarding Tom:

I don't think he will limit use to premiums. The terms for the API don't limit its use to premiums, right?

There are a few scenarios possible:

- Tom buys API license from GS, we have to repay him, he might even earn money with his work

- GS buys his solution and sells it as their own

- GS allows us to buy a "API-Premium" license, Tom would be free to take payments

- and thousands of mixups between those and more possibilites

Hopefully he finds a solution. Maybe editable templates, going open source, finding a few other programmers helping out, go imagine.

GCz is too good to be left dying.
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] derlbear:
It doesn't really matter how many users own WM-phones.. because the program is already there! GC.com wouldn't have to pay ANYTHING to create the software or to allow WM-users to use the API. They could even EARN money by limiting the downloads (free:5 / premium:unlimited).

I would definately buy a premium membership if it guarantes that I can ALWAYS use GCzII to go hunting.

GC.com has to know that they can't stop people using programs like GCzII because they behave like human beings (search, open, download). The only problem is that we can't edit the scraping thing on our own because it's inside the program.. so that Tom is the only one who can do something. (GC.com can be very lucky, because when a program doesn't work, people look for alternatives)

You can easily compare that to the music industry. They didn't offer a good possibility for people to get their stuff online... so others filled that gap. The difference is that you don't copy anything that you can also get FOR FREE at the gc.com website. You just use a program that does this automatically for you... and in a very comfortable way..

MAN... GC.com could also allow GCzII and ask Tom if he could place a banner or something like that into GCzII when it downloads caches. But NOOO.. they just don't want to see that program and they don't want people to use it.. and use their ****ty alpha status program instead.

Cheers,

derlbear
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] ThoMo1969:
Issues if work with GPX

Because of GC website changes I have to work with GPX files at last days. If GPX work, it will be an alternative and enabling the GCZ usage in case of further website changes.

Following issues I note:

No possibility to download (missing) static google maps for (all) caches - also for a single cache the static maps can not be downloaded by menu (workaround: create a waypoint and download the static maps for it)

Hint button is always enabled - even if no hint is available

Particulary the first one make it harder to use GCZ in the wild. If this will be possible it would be nice.

ThoMo
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Peregrin5:
To be honest, I don't like the way that GC.com is attempting to commercialize what should be a free sport. If people want to create freeware to enhance their geocaching experience, they should be able to. It's almost like they're trying to claim the entire geocaching idea as their own and not the amalgamation of everyone in the geocaching community so they can cash out on it. (Taking money from books, apps, memberships, etc.)

I would support GCZII and other clients using other geocaching databases, and promoting the use of a major free "open source" website. I think for the good of the future of geocaching everyone should abandon the GC.com ship while we still can rather than further promoting its corruption of the enjoyability and experience of geocaching.

What we need to do is find one major open source database and back it with everything we have. Forming an underground geocaching community, somewhat like. There are already a few good ones, like Navicache or Terracache (they can't even use the term Geocaching without GC's express permission). All they need is a better web designer and they'd honestly be amazing.

You can read all about the monopoly that Jeremy Irish has attempted to impose on on geocaching here: geocaching.gpsgames. org/history/
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] :
Yeah man,

but the problem is: Many humans together are a pool of dumb cattle.

Everybody knows that fast food is bad for your health. McD's is full every day.

Everybody knows Microsoft is using it's Windows to promote their own ****ty browser. IE has a market share of like 80%.

Everybody knows driving a car is bad for the environment. Bigger cars sell better than small.

So there are a lot of people that know GS is making money from something they did nothing for. But it is the best site (in terms of usability) with the most caches.

If "we" form an own forum for our caches it will only support the few (in comparison to the number on gc.com) caches "we" list there. That will definitely make every caching trip a loooong journey.

The only way to get out of this dilemma is Tom. He has to find a way to open up the templates or his code, so "we" have a way to fix problems when gc.com changes something.

To derlbear:

gc.com does pay for us. Servers and traffic do cost money. We pay by premium fees or with the ads. Both ways do not work with programs like GCz, that is obvoius.

I do not endorse the way Jeremy forces us to pay for nothing. I do not endorse the way he tries to limit our behaviours to what he likes.

But he has to make money to pay for the service he does to the community. He has nothing to give away for free.

If we want to go legal (or Tom finds no way of allowing the community to correct such problems like we encountered in the last couple days) the only way is an API license which will definitely cost a lot of money.

For Tom. Then we will have to pay for the Software. And we have the limits of our non-premium gc.com membership.

I see us paying for the program and a premium membership, don't you?
[Windows Mobile Apps and Games] Donn66:
What is with all the whining? You don't want to pay for the app. You don't want to pay for premium membership. You want instant gratification any time you feel the need. Look. Things have got alot better than it used to be in this sport. GC is not some evil empire trying to ruin your experience. You've just decided that this is the next thing on your list to get your panties in a bunch over. I've only been using my winmo phone for caching for a few months and I love Gczii when it's working. Would I pay a reasonable price for it if it was legit? Hell yeah! I'm also a premium member and happily pay $30 a year to be one. If you want to form your own underground movement, have at it. The way I see it, it'd make for a more enjoyable experience for the rest of us anyway. You're already paying ten times what a premium membership costs to go "paperless" unless you've figured a way to hack your carrier for the data plan too.