yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] aruppenthal:
Thanks for the page link Dave. I was under the impression we had alot more mods than that. I now feel much more enlightened as to the problem.Take the total number of mods(48) and divide the user base(1,338,020) by it.

Lets assume only half of the users are active, making the user base (669,010).

I know only about 40 of the 48 Mods are regularly active.

669,010/40=16725.25 Users per mod.

If 10 percent of those users post thats 1672.53 posts per mod.

If 1 percent of those users post its still 167.5 posts per mod.

Obviously we need quite a few more mods. All the ideas in the world mean nothing if there are not enough mods to keep the peace. Its like sending 1 soldier into a war and expecting them to win.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] DaveShaw:
The total number of moderators >60 I think. I don't have a way to check, but that's what the Site admin said :)

Most of the time when I check there are ~3000 - ~5000 users online and between 1 (me :)) and 10 (maybe 15) moderators on at any one time.

That said we are all from different time zones.

Ta

Dave
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] aruppenthal:
The number of mods may be correct. I went by those that had registered on the page you linked. There were more than 60 listed but several are doubles watching multiple forums. Some of the ones on that page are also gone to my knowledge.

Even at 4000 online if half post and there are 15 mods online thats 266.67 posts per mod to keep track of. If 10% of those are ignorant posts thats 26 posts per mod that have to be policed, closed, or moved.

Given the fact that all of you have lives, jobs, wives, etc I think that is too much. I have moderated boards with 1/10th this user base and it was difficult.

You guys need to lighten the load.

thats my .02 :p Not that its worth .02 since I live in america.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] Dane Austin:
Belive me I understand. As I've stated in previous posts I've been there. I know what kind of commitment is required to be a mod. Honestly I didn't relize there were that many mods as it seems that only a few (at least in the raph forum) are active (at least as far as posting).

As Arup stated there are a lot of posts for each mod. Maybe the best idea would be to add more mods since, as you said, some are now busier.

BTW: Thank you to all of the mods for your hard work.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] :
yep really interesting reading i dare hope XDA is about help others and get the best support to thoose phones not bann anyone who dare say something bold... may if develorer of the site build in some kinda revard point system will help get avoid POINTLESS things THX just like other forums do... :D
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] redbandana:
Personally I wish I was more technical to assist chefs with bugs, opposed to just listing bugs and other issues in threads. I have no idea where to begin to start learning.

edit: actually nevermind http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=445396

edit 2: I believe a thread like this should be posted at the top of each rom section within this forum. It has motivated me to learn a bit and it may do the same for others with little technical experience.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] jbrare:
I also don't have much in the way of constructive input in the more technical aspects of cooked roms. I will however post a reply if there is something I can contribute to. I agree that there isn't enough research by users of cooked roms before posting a cry for help. Early adopters of devices like these tend to like gadgets and like playing around with them and finding answers to their questions themselves, as I think was said earlier. I do believe that something should be done about members posting random posts and clogging threads up but restricting the user base could be the downfall of a very helpful site.

It doesn't help either that my carrier (T-Mobile UK) are directing people to this site for technical support when they fail to answer a query, as they have done with me on multiple occasions now. They have even actively encouraged me to download a cooked ROM and replace their own from this site! I kid you not. Its good that T-Mobile respect the site but I tend to think its more to do with passing the buck and using XDA as technical support by proxy!!
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] cshepley:
Development is not exclusively the realm of those who are senior members on these forums. I've been professionally developing for Windows Mobile for years and don't have the time to post enough to become a senior member, I'm sure that is the case with plenty of other devs with day jobs too.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] markgamber:
I had it out yesterday with some "people" in one of these threads. I've been a member for 4 years, have 300+ posts and, being a full time programmer, I can get very technical and I can help out considerably. But the person who made the rom didn't want bug reports. It was posted very clearly. So I left a vague message that mentioned, in short, that I tried it, it wasn't really usable and I went back to a stock rom. When someone else asked if data was intermittant, I answered by posting that intermittant data was why I went back to stock. Short, sweet, to the point with no mention of bugs or anything that anyone might find offensive. For that I was greeted with almost a full page of replies from the holier than thou forum rent-a-cops who wasted nearly a full page making sure I understood that I have no place on this site. One suggested banning me permanently from the site and, frankly, I have no problem with that if this is what the site has turned into. The best part is that the last time I bothered looking, the OP had posted that he didn't want a certain kind of bug. So I could have gone into detail with my original post.

Post after post, almost a full page, over a single post about something that could have been entirely avoided in the first place. How wonderful. And for what? So a handful of people could feel better about themselves by driving me off the site? Here's a real question for you; which is worse, someone trying to follow an OP's wishes by making a single, vague post, or pages and pages of nasty, hateful, completely unhelpful replies to that (and other) posts? Woo hoo! Pile on the idiot newbie! Here's your chance to look like a BIG MAN!

I'm really tired of being treated like sh*t. By anyone. I'm equally tired of seeing lots and lots of other people also being treated like total sh*t. If you want respect, you can start by EARNING it, acting like adults and providing some helpful information instead of the usual page after page of mindless "ME TOO!" rants.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] iceman4357:
I have no idea if this is even possible, but only allow the chef's friends the ability to post in the threads. This way a new person will not have the ability to ask questions and fill the threads with useless posts. This would force them to have to read!
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] joninthout:
Read this whole thing...

Noobs and those who need to be reminded should be directed to this thread before being able to get on the forum or at least post. There is a lot of history in this thread, and maybe will enlighten those who turn to this site for information. Windows Mobile Devices do not have an Apple Store. There is no tech support from the provider that is going to sit down with you like they do at the Apple store. I don't know if the Experts at the App stores really know their sh*t, but how cool would it be to walk in to a WM store and ask an expert on anything?

I am a traveling Trial Consultant and deal with presenting evidence visually in courtrooms all over this country and the UK. I travel from Hotel to Hotel and courtroom to courtroom all year long. Trials that I work at can last from a week to a couple of months. I sit and watch jurors as part of my job and have found, over the last 11 years, that people want information right away. They don't want to read, but rather have visual support or have someone hold their hand. Instant gratification is in everybody's blood, especially at these times when technology IS needed and is being rapidly implemented to everyone.

With all of that said, maybe a YouTube video tutorial before or during sign up would help set the rules. I don't want to promote the death to text, but sometimes we need to role with what the masses need.

And to all of those who do their best on this site, Thank You for all of the great work. This site keeps me from falling asleep in court :D.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] redgarter437:
Let's be honest: if they were reading the threads from start to finish (this one or any other one) we wouldn't be having this issue in the first place!

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! We have become so mainstream in the Windows Mobile world that even CARRIERS refer to us when their own reps cannot answer questions! I wouldn't be surprised if HTC and/or Microsoft reps routinely come here under some sort of a guise to figure out fixes, find features we really want, etc.

Our forums has essentially made Windows Mobile a platform that is semi-open, much like Android is. I'm in NO WAY saying Windows Mobile is Android -- I'm just saying that ROMs have become a modularized, object-oriented undertaking. Just download any kitchen and you'll understand what I mean.

I'm VERY bitter about the situation, because it seems like every time -- EVERY TIME -- I've found a chef I've loved the work of (Wizard, Kaiser and Raphael now), we DRIVE HIM AWAY, and all the work goes for naught. Not totally, as the new chefs that come aboard can benefit from the work that's been done, but essentially.

Maybe to remedy this situation we need a fundamental change to Windows Mobile itself. The kitchens have given me a great idea: Microsoft should sell an "OS kit" for our devices. We could have an "app" store where we could purchased "modules" that can be cooked into our very own custom ROM. We've done half this work for them already; with some polish, developer support, and hardware & carrier backing this could be the revolution we are waiting for -- AND MICROSOFT COULD KEEP THEIR REVENUE STREAM ALIVE FROM THESE PRODUCTS (since it's apparently so precious to them)!
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] markgamber:
The most useful thing that could be done with this site would be to upgrade it to software that supports multiple threads per topic. That would, at least, eliminate having to wade through 300 pages of crap to find one useful bit of information which is why NO ONE reads threads start to finish. No one. I defy anyone here to honestly say they've read, start to finish, those threads that number pages in the hundreds. You know, the most popular ones which SHOULD be read but aren't because they're so full of basic questions and worthless, snarky replies that they're totally hopeless. It's all easily fixed with software. Close the site for a week and upgrade the software.

Short of that, give OPs the ability to police their own threads and close them, forcing people to find their own answers or post questions elsewhere.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] iceblade997:
diamond user here and i agree wholeheartedly. too many people are jumping in and posting useless questions or comments and clogging up threads, without bothering to read and research for themselves

look at Schaps' TouchExperience UI thread over in the diamond rom section...
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] mike freegan:
Those changes are ridiculous. They are either useless or would alienate a lot of people with genuine, un-answered questions.

The one change this site needs that would be of most benefit is a good search engine. For example if I type 'crackling bluetooth raphael' it brings up every thread which includes any of those words. There is no way (I can see) to filter it.

Then when you do find something, it only opens the post and not the full thread.

It is not easy for anyone, let alone new users to find information. Hence we end up with hundreds of threads asking the same questions.

A good, idiot-proof search tool would ake XDA-Dev approximately 100% better.

EDIT: 100% agree with everything AtomAng said (whose ROM I am coincidentally downloading as I type this)

When a n00b comes and asks a daft question, calling them a noob, or telling them to search themselves just clogs up the thread and makes it even harder to find the correct info. Either post the solution again, or link them to a solution. Remember, a lot of these people have just done something awful to their £450 phones and are panicking. It's not really fair to expect them to read through 20 threads full of conflicting information, each with 100 pages which may or may not be useful to them.

Maybe a rule to edit the solution into the first post when it's been found would be a good idea?
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] Radimus:
perhaps 2 things...

Make a forum, for ROM Releases that only the DEVs have... you would need to make a group for the devs, so they can post. and then alow the peanut gallery to discuss in the common forum

Next, enable user rankings of posts... This post was helpful +1, this post stupid -1... Eventually translated into the user will have a ranking of being either helpful or stupid

make everyone read the How to Ask Questions from my signature :D
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] trueg:
Yes, I can relate. I spent a lot of time cooking for public consumption with my ELF. When I got my Fuze I decided that I would just cook for myself. Often, I am tempted to upload, but there are already a lot of ROMs here in the Raphael forum.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] At0mAng:
I did read it and it is on every page but it is still up in the poll and one the best things that can, if possible which seems highly unlikely to be done to help chefs out.

It was not a matter of reading the entire thread or not, it was about what options there were. Many other people feel the same way, besides the ones that you listed...like a hunder and something others.

So you missed the point you were trying to make since it was not because I did not read it or forgot about...well for me at least ;)
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] speed_pour:
@At0mAng:

Yours was the one post that I suspected might be the exception, again, I really just needed to hold a few names up for the sake of example. Just a quick look 2-3 pages back I can find at least 5 others without looking hard.

The point that I probably should have made differently, though I didn't think to at the time, is that we're focusing on the small problems, each individual newb (or senior member) that does something that doesn't fit with our idea of how people are supposed to act on here. But it doesn't really respond to the real problem, which is that there's just too much to possibly keep up with. Let's be honest, if somebody came along 2 years ago, panicked and posting "I BRICKED MY NEW PHONE!!!!", we all know that everybody on here would have calmed him down and helped him fix it (or determine gps coordinates for it's burial plot). Today, that won't happen, because too many people have done it and made it annoying.

A few "Thank You" posts in each rom thread is not the problem. 20 "Thank You" posts, 7 posts yelling at the people for posting the 'Thanks', 50 posts complaining about a bug, 4 posts answering the problem, 18 posts asking for modifications, 45 posts telling people that if they read XYZ they wouldn't have a bug or ask for modifications, 6 posts about another rom being better......That's a problem...and that's just the first day the rom is up (assuming only mediocre popularity). Because the only posts that NEED to be seen are those 4 posts right in the middle that actually answer a needed question. Fact is, that information needs to be on the first page, and I don't think it matters who puts it there...it's just gotta be.

@juju-35:

I may be wrong, but I think Pandora's Box has already been opened and going the B route is sorta like the nightclub owner throwing the customers out the door so his friends can hang out. Might be nice tonight, but if it's too hard to get in, the group never makes new friends. That's not to say that there couldn't/shouldn't be some private forums. I've seen enough mod posts to know there's a group just for them, and there's been a few items that slipped through to the RSS feed that hints to me that there's at least one or two other private groups already. The thing that doesn't exist here is the public view/private post, which is very rarely worth having since those threads will surely just spawn a few fully public commentary threads anyway...though sometimes this might be nice for certain development goals involving a few people (thinking of the Polaris 3d driver project as an example).
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] juju-35:
Agree to me that A is the way to go. I do not think there is consensus on that though and would love to hear it form the mdoerators.

Again if/when there is conensus on that then there are some easyu steps you can do to remove 80% of the crap:

1- Force a fixed structure for (major) release threads. Something like:

(a) POst #1 has general announcement: Purpose/who istthe developer/who is the editor (could be the smae). Editor takes care of policing the thread.

(b) Post #2 (or #0?) has reminder of the rules of engagement. No stupid questions, no arrogance, no bashing.

(c) POst #3 for knwon bugs. (easy way to elminate most repeat bug reports)

(d) Post #4 Feature requests (for future evolutions)

By making a fixed structure like this it will be easy for people to have 90% of the valid thread info in one page, and cut a lot fo carp IMO. Then the editor can legitimately sedn the noobs to posat 1-5 with no more comments.

2- Improve search capabilities

3- Make rules fair, balanced and known to everyone (by email, at signup , on top of all forums and maybe threads).

4- Other good ideas coming form this thread...

Juju
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] Sandbunny:
maybe karma moderating a solution? And maybe more moderators in the forums. I know some sites, where they r really picky on how you formulate you story.. I agree on search function (i took me almost 1 year, to find out how the damn thing works :) )But i know what the "seniors" mean, I was here in the time of the blue angel and it was a real tech forum, slowly it moves to a more "generic" forum where everybody is. In my option not bad

PS, i think the biggest annoying part is that people are not reading
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] speed_pour:
Yay Slashdot :D

Honestly, I admit that I would like to see this forum running on Slashcode instead of vBulletin. I've never understood the popularity of vBulletin since it doesn't support non-branching threads, it's not very configurable, it's not really that feature rich, and it's not even free. Slashcode is all of those things, and has a number of other very good features. Unfortunately, converting the entire wealth of knowledge that this site has already built up would border on being complete insanity, so I think we're stuck with this.

I've seen a lot of people slamming search, some even claim it's "broken". I'm not trying to pick on you, you're just the last to mention it....but I can't help but think that a lot of people just don't know how to make it really work.

"Quote" marks around a phrase will limit searches to that phrase just like they do in Google. (i.e. Search for 'gps turns off' with quotes around it will return 11 results, without quotes returns more than 500). I rarely search just for vague keywords, I usually search for a phrase that I expect would make sense.

Advanced Search (as opposed to using "Search This Thread" on an individual thread) should be done with "Posts" selected instead of "Threads". The results are actually useful this way. This should actually be the default, and I'm sure it can be made default as I've seen many other sites that have done that.

Definitely need to select groups to search on instead of the entire forum, at least if there's too many results to look through. Ctrl-Click each group you want in a search to search multiple specific groups.

In the search results (if searching by posts instead of threads), clicking on the bold line will take you to the first post in that thread, clicking on the italic line below it will take you to the post that actually contains the answer. Forget who said it, but just a few pages back somebody complained about searching only bringing up the thread and not the actual post...

etc....there's a lot of other tips, but I don't want to list ALL of them right now.

I'd be willing to write up a tutorial, or even a short bit of help if an admin would agree to link/include it on the search page. I have NEVER had to ask for help on any issue on this forum because I've always found the answer within a couple search attempts and a little reading. I know I can get the answer a lot faster by looking for it myself than posting and hoping that somebody will take the time to answer. As far as I'm concerned, searching for the answer IS instant gratification.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] Sandbunny:
I total agree with you, Its all about discovering

WIKI would be a good place for that also for other subforums here. Its a good to start with
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] scotchua:
I would begin by posting it in the wiki, but i can think of several other places we might link it, including the newly updated rules. Also, you can PM Flar (the admin) about adding a link to it from the search page, I don't know how much work it would be, but she would.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] speed_pour:
I'll write up a full version for the wiki and a paraphrased version that (IMHO) would fit well on the search page.

While I'm not intimately familiar with vBulletin, I think changing/adding content to a static page should be trivial.....but it's up to the powers that be if they think it's worth putting it there.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] speed_pour:
Advanced Search Tutorial

I posted the search tutorial on the wiki at How to use Advanced Search on XDA-Developers Forum

All are welcome to comment, fix, post scathing flames regarding typos....whatever. Let me know if I over-formatted it.
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] aruppenthal:
Nope it sounds like the good old days . A few of us try to do this. We are typically met with attitude or ignored. Unfortunately most of those that are really not contributing also have little respect. As you said it takes more than a few.

LMAO oh wait im not from new york :p
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] scotchua:
I agree with much of what has been said here:

People do view XDA-Developers as an HTC support site, which it is not.

People do not come with the expectation of having to learn...

The population of new users is growing much faster than the population of experienced users.

New users are not reading the "read this before posting" section in any forum.

One thing i think would help enormously is if more users took it upon themselves to help keep the wiki updated and to expand it. It would provide a much easier and more centralized location to find answers.

I have also been thinking about adding an "any random question" thread in the Raphael general section, and start steering users toward that, much like we do with hacking/developing and question/answer. At least try to centralize some of the problem :P
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] Chainfire:
I wholehartedly agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread. I'm suddently wondering how b00n I was myself when I joined. Luckily, I don't remember.

As long as you start with the point farthest from New York and stop halfway, I'm game! :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] scotchua:
Hey! I think that means me??? Well not technically the farthest, but pretty much as far as you can be away and still be in the US at least :P

edit by rza: i love rza
[Touch Pro, Fuze ROM Development] ramontrotman:
standard form for annoying rza....

dear (place chef name here),

This is the fastest rom i've every used. i can't believe how fast and stable it is. But i am having one issue so far. (place issue here.) was wondering, (place dumb question here?) Thanks for your hard work.