yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Burnout62:
Interesting comparison, but why compare 50 Mpx Expert RAW zoomed vs Gcam 12 Mpx zoomed?

It's well known that Gcam doesn't support 50 Mpx, so result is worse. And stock 12 Mpx is better because of sharpnen higher than Gcam one.

Most of the time, do you take pictures then zoom in? On a daily basis?

One more thing: Expert raw image, is it screenshot of DNG? JPG out of DNG with Photoshop RAW export?

Gcam is more realistic result, less "pop" colors & sharpen.

Could you please do same comparison without crop/zoomed-in pictures, just normal daylight picture? (painting is so specific). Would be interesting to compare full pictures Expert RAW 50 Mpx vs Gcam.

PROD mode << Expert RAW? I had opposite result, PROD mode seems better than Expert RAW.

I'll try to compare on my side stock vs Expert RAW (pro mod sux?) vs Gcam.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
It kind of makes sense, as you are trying to compare the best possible result from both.

The question is - "What app should I use to get the best possible results?", not "What app should I use to have the best possible results in 12 Mpix?". And that is 12 Mpix for GCAM, and 50 Mpix for ExpertRAW. If ExpertRAW can provide results that are always better than 12 Mpix from GCAM, or any other app that is limited to 12 Mpix, that would mean that you should go with ExpertRAW, as this is the best possible option for you on that smartphone. Period. In a perfect world, we would have the same output resolution, but it is not a perfect world. We are comparing what we have.

12 Mpix output from GCAM doesn't mean that resolution of details is the worse. It only means that it is saving lower-resolution images. Don't confuse these two. These are two very different things.

To make it clear let's assume that you have DSLR that can save pictures in 30 Mpix resolution. and two lenses. One is very good, and the other is bad. You take pictures with both. Output images for both are 30 Mpix, but on one, you can clearly read some small letters on the picture, while on the other they are all blurred. That means, that on the first one, the resolution of the details, of the image is greater than on the other, while on the output, the picture resolution is the same.

As long as the output resolution is not limiting the best possible resolution that you can practically get from the optic-sensor-processing chain, it is fine. And I do believe, in the smartphone world, the best possible resolvable resolution of the details is nowhere near 50Mpix.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Burnout62:
Yes question is : on a daily basis, when I take a picture, which one is the best result compare to real life scene, on terms of colors, details, light, etc. Real scene. Real life.

So zoomed / crop is interesting, but also good to compare full image.

And Expert Raw is good, but requires time to convert from DNG to JPG. Can't keep and share DNG.

That's what I tried to explain.

I'll do my own comparison later this month and share it. Interesting comparison tough, because I did compare stock VS Raw from pro mode: pro mode is better, but render is very "raw", missing some colors/shadows sometimes. Expert raw was worse than pro mode. Pro mode DNG after Photoshop was good, but takes too much time.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
Perfect. More comparisons we have, the better. :)

And yes, that is another factor. JPGs from ExpertRAW are just bad, no matter the resolution. Somehow processing there is completely different than in the stock app.

Taking GCAM out of the landscape:

So if I had to choose only JPGs, I would go for the stock. If DNG, then ExpertRAW. And that is another problem that I have with the Samsung app. Cannot have both at the same time.

As for PRO Mode vs ExpertRAW. That's another thing. Took some shots and DNGs from pro mode seem to be always worse than from ExpertRAW...
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Burnout62:
Will read this carefully and watch details.

Actually I found at home a book with colours similar to previous member painting, so I quickly did some shots (it's night time, so colors in real life are a bit yellowish, because of inside light).

I did:

- Gcam JavaSabr v53 sharpen, HDR+, 15 frames HDR, expo button off (+ few personal tweaks)

- Stock Camera 12 Mpx (not pro mode), HDR on, softening medium, scene optimizer off

- Expert RAW 50 Mpx: DNG exported as JPG with Photoshop, untouched, Samsung expert raw profile + Adobe standard profile.

See picture name to know which one is which settings.

With S23.

FYI: real life Colors are a bit yellowish, so white is not perfect real white in real life (close to, not that yellow).

Gcam is a bit dark, should check with "expo" button toggled to bet something brighter and HDR++.

53.45 MB folder on MEGA

4 files

mega.nz
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
I think the light was far better on your shot than on mine, and in that light conditions 50Mpix expertRAW file is better. Small details are resolved better on ExpertRAW one.

12 Mpix stock is bad, but visible only on 100%. On 50% the difference is not that visible (apart from differences in processing).

But issue described by my in ExpertRAW is visible on your files as well, just not in the center. Look at the wood on the bottom and wall. ExpertRAW applied noise reduction there and details there are worse than on GCAM or even stock.

Same goes for the black part of the shelf on the top - on the ExpertRAW files from you that part of the picture is just blurry.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
All shots were on tripod, probably this could make a difference. I used PS v23 with profile Adobe Vivid no sharpening in ACR and sharperning only in post

Thanks for the explanation and links, I prefer to do real test to know the limits of my tools, in the case of this camera I shoot a ISO 12233 chart printed in a laser printer and compared the results with my M6mkII, is clear that the lens are not able to resolve correctly 50mpx moving to the borders.

I don't understand why Samsung released a 50mpx when they could released a much better camera at 25mpx, I think 25mpx is the hots spot for most of the people and not having big raw files.

That is something I don't understand from Samsung, why not give full control of the camera to 3rd party to make a better app, in this regard Apple is better.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
The details in GCAM are the same I found in my shots, maybe the colours are pretty accurate but the details are really bad.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
True, but only on that cover. Look at shelf, wood and surrounding. ExpertRAW just blurred that out. And that part is what I really don't like, and I am willing to sacrifice more details just to have consistency all over the image. From my shots, I was not able to predict, where algorithm will apply that nosie reduction.

And even cover - look at right top corner, blue waves. Noise redution in ExpertRAW was applied there as well, with no reason to. Details in that part are batter on both GCAM and stock 12Mpix. If there would be a way just to disable that noise reduction thing (or maybe it is bad images merging? ) ExpertRAW would be much, much better.

EDIT: Now when I think about, it is not noise reduction. It is for sure bad multiple image merging. Smallest movement causes pixels to not align perfectly in some parts of the images. That is why your images are that better from ExpertRAW - you are using tripod to take them - no movement, no issues with fusion. Apparently Samsung processing is not handling that very well.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
I did another series of shoot: (all 50mpx downscaled to 12Mpx)

I use this kind of shots because is a controlled environment that shows color and texture and I can compare colors.

The colors that are more accurate comes from PROSHOT.

JPG (image optimizer on and off didn't change anything in this pictures)

1. ExpertRAW 50mpx

2. ExpertRAW

3. STOCK 50 (not pro)

4. STOCK (not pro)

5. PROSHOT

RAW -> JPG

6. PRO 50mpx

7. STOCK (not pro)

8. ExpertRAW

9. ExpertRAW 50mpx

10. PROSHOT
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
I agree with you about the movement and probably there is another issue with the OIS not working properly, for example my girlfriend is lamenting after the last upgrade that she is getting more blurry images (even if I setup her phone with priority on focus over speed)... maybe the autofocus or the image stabilization is not working well.

In the attachment the shots in bad light and this time I put the image in the bottom border of the camera to include the lens resolution issues at 50mpx and downscaled at 12mpx (is a cropped image from the original)

All in tripod

Some notes, histogram in ExpertRAW doesn't work very well, is buggy and for some reason all the cams tends to underexpose.

Ambient Light 2 Lx

ISO manually set to 500

ExpertRAW 12mpx (RAW)

ExpertRAW 50mpx (RAW downscaled)

In the attachment the GCAM version
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
Bingo. And I think that is it. For sure I had this issue before the update, but now I think it is more noticeable.

Example - I just took a picture of my cat, light is good, as it is sunny morning.

Nothing exciting, just a cat:

And when we zoom in, then we notice something:

(left ExpertRAW DNG, right DNG from GCAM).

On the ExpertRAW we see spots with no details. Fur is just a blurred mess, despite having far more greater resolution. I have sharpened both to make it more visible. Ok with that, I think I can just report a bug to Samsung, I will just take more shots. If anyone can take ExpertRAW shots and notice that thing as well, please report it as well, as it will just be beneficial to us all.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
Bug report send. Just to illustrate this with very simple example I took very naive approach here. I took 3 photos trying to keep my hand steady. Then I put them in photoshop, and merged them.

So 3 original shots where just like this one:

But after merging I got this(right one):

Look how right side is in focus, while left seems to be blurred. As this is very simplified example, it is not 1:1 what is happening in ExpertRAW, but gives an idea. Samsung algorithm probably is undersampling alignment map, based on which is aligning images with each other. And that causes issues with softness in some parts of the image. The darker it is, the problem is more prominent, as because of hand shake images differs more between each other, and Samsung algorithm struggles more.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Virgo_Guy:
"Major update",

Result: 1 step forward, 2 steps backwards.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] LuthorKid:
Pretty much summarised it in a nutshell
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
In Camera Assitant do you have enabled "Disable Faster Shutter"?
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
Yup. All settings in camera assistant are towards quality/focus, not speed.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
Could you do the test with that option disabled to check if you see any change?
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
Tried and no difference in the quality itself, it just changes when a picture is taken - on press or on the release of the button. Today I was going to do some testing with better light and all JPGs, but I did not find the time. Took only some snaps, but could not properly analyze them. But in better lighting, it can be seen that higher-resolution pictures are getting better, and produce fewer artifacts.

For my tests, I don't use a tripod, as in everyday use of smartphones I will not do it either, as I want to stay with tests as close as possible to how I'm going to be using it so that I can choose the best app/mode for me.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
The camera is bugged... we are paying a premium phone to become a beta tester of Samsung... unbelievable.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Burnout62:
Very interesting discussion, thanks guys for pictures shared, comparisons and details.

Very interesting thing, apart from Gcam, seems best results are STOCK PRO MODE 50Mpx?

My next comparison will be real life one. I mean, I don't care about zooming details, I don't do in it real-life (except few times), I care about easiness (DNG isn't, it takes time to convert to JPG with Photoshop, because JPG from Pro Mode/Expert RAW is over-processed) and mainly final result: colors, image close to reality, good result (not for Instagram).

Not over-process, over-sharpen, over-exposure like stock is often doing.

I think I'll do: stock vs pro mode vs gcam (avoid expert raw, and in 12 Mpx, because 50 is "not fair", Gcam can't do it).
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] citytrader:
Opening a 50mpx DNG (170MB) in photoshop could take about 5 seconds with a NVIDIA 3060TI and at least 32MB of ram.

Stock pro (RAW) is the worst of all modes, the difference I found between stock pro and ExpertRAW (RAW) was stock pro has heavy noise reduction and as a result detail lost, ExpertRAW has less noise reduction but more sharpening and as a result better details.

Both has issues with blurry images shooting handheld in some situations.

In my experience stock underexposes and with a working histogram it could be solved, this is not the case of the S23U where histogram in some low speeds doesn't work correctly

I don't undersand why people use the word "processed", is a non sense, all images are heavy processed or how do you think Samsung will get clear images from the S23U's noisy sensor ? (heavy noise cleaning, heavy processing)

We need to wait till Samsung fixes all the bugs the camera has, today we pay to be the Samsung's beta testers.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] penfold:
can't understand why samsung insists on sticking with their tiny sensors when all the chinese phones now have 1 inch sensors and can blow rings round the ultra ...the only thing that saves the s23 is gcam

...if the others were globally available and supported i wouldn't even bother with samsung
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] bodomfan:
No they don't ,maybe in night mode ,but even then they expose a shot to look like daytime at night
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
Exposure is just a matter of settings and how each company wants to use it, and not the sensor itself. Brightness is nothing more than a result of compination of iso, shutter speed and F stop.

And I have exactly same opinion - if top smartphones with 1 inch sensor were available in my country, I would go for it.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] bodomfan:
Shame the software on Chinese phones is rubbish
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] chetszot:
@ajarosz

I have examined your comparisons and I couldn't agree more.

I am terribly disappointed how bad S23 photos are. I have been using S20 since its release and its photos are tenfold better (although being still "smartphonish"). GCam on S23 makes things a lot better (the images are outstanding and not smartphonish anymore). However, user experience and performance of GCam is a lot to be desired here. It's slow and cannot be fully launched by Samsung's system shortcuts (double power press, from lock screen, gallery cannot be browsed etc).

These small annoyances makes GCam difficult to use in real world scenarios such as something is happening and you have to take really quick photo. You'll never be able to unlock, launch GCam and take a photo (it's slow itself) on time to capture the moment.

I don't know what game is Samsung playing, but I don't really like what we have with S23 now. The worst thing is that every bull**** review praises this garbage how good it is. I just can't read these reviews. If it's praised by every dumb reviewer on the web, then Samsung is unlikely to improve it in my opinion. I have personally created 7 bugs so far in Samsung Members and the only responses I have is that my problem has been passed to an appropriate team.

After this "major camera update" I have lost my hopes with this garbage S23 and just changed Smoothening to medium in Camera assistant and configured GCam. All we can do now. I find medium smoothening making things a little less bad (it's still far from S20, but what else can we do) and GCam as main camera for photos when there's plenty of time to take them.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Burnout62:
"(double power press, from lock screen, gallery cannot be browsed etc)."

You can change app launched when double power press & on lock screen, I did it with Gcam and it works fine.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] chetszot:
I will try it out, thank you.

I have forgot to mention one of these minor annoyances. GCam can't access OIS and some other video recording features and therefore - stock app is better for videos recording. So we have to use two different apps.

Still, GCam pros are worth it, but - as a user of "premium" device I expect best-in class camera, but we have garbage we have to hack in order to have good quality.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
Yup, for video use stock apps, or MotionCam. GCAM is only good for stills I would say.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] penfold:
the video quality of gcam is also far superior to stock, i have tried comparisons ....it is only useable however if you have it fixed to a tripod as, as mentioned, ois does not work so it is unuseable if you are holding the phone
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] chetszot:
It's not only the OIS missing in GCam.

Samsung's camera has also some magic applied to microphones. The audio quality captured by stock camera is outstanding. Actually this is the only reason I made my bad decision to purchase S23 at all. I am a musician and the microphones in S23 are just ouf of this planet - I have never ever seen such outstanding quality in a phone. They don't work in GCam or in any other 3rd party app.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] chetszot:
Yesterday, I was helping out my friend to setup his brand new Galaxy A34.

I was pretty amazed on how good this device is for its price. Given that this year's midrangers have received pretty much all flagship features such as AOD, Stereo Speakers, 120 Hz display, S23-like look, some kind of water resistance and given that bad S23's camera quality, I truly wonder what are we paying for.

Few years ago flagships phones and especially its cameras were indeed noticeably better than midrangers (I owned both S20 and had access to eg. A50).

Now, I took some comparison shots and, lol, A34 pictures were really good, even indoors with medium light and photos were really very close to S23. Given that S23 shots are just poor, A34 looked really close to them.

Can someone please enlighten me, what is the noticeable feature S23 have (besides faster CPU) that this year midrangers don't? I just cannot understand what direction is Samsung going to and what are we paying for in S23 series.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Deepgreen23:
A basic question, perhaps, but I am new to phone photography and have just bought a Samsung S23 Ultra. The RAW (DNG) files appear very fuzzy when viewed on the phone, and I have the additional hassle of my MacBook Pro not recognising DNG files and corrupting them. I shoot in RAW all the time on my Canon EOS R5 camera and there is no such issue with that. Is it a function of the large file size causing the poor image on the phone (although the huge 200mp camera files appear pin-sharp)?
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] ajarosz:
This is basically because for DNG you have some JPG previews inside and your device/gallery is not updating it. It is low-quality and used only to make you aware of what this file has inside.

For the Mac thing, cannot say a thing, as on PC I don't have any issue with that and the DNG.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Deepgreen23:
That in itself is helpful - thanks.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] cpufrost:
Interesting, I will have one in hand to try and will be capturing near stage monitors and bass drums at high SPL! That has always been my gripe with the inability of smart phones to capture loud transients without severe distortion.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] penfold:
you need to run the files through adobe dng converter first to be able to open them with some mac apps

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/digital-negative.html
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Deepgreen23:
I must ask what may seem a naive question; given that the S23 family is, by definition, only a couple of months old, why has a major software update been necessary - why wasn't it produced correctly in the first place? Does no-one test these things for real before release?
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] highlightshadow:
Software is never perfect not ever truly "complete" --- they get it to a point through alpha/beta testing to where it's good enough and essentially most critical issues are resolved.

There's always going to be new functions that might not have quite been ready in time for the phone release.

Bare in mind that Samsung had to manufacture and install software on millions of devices and have them in-place for launch day ... there has to be a cut-off for that effort

So it's just a massive optimization patch usually on most companies phones to tidy up bits and enhance where possible. Just a fact of life these days
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Deepgreen23:
This is interesting as I was embroiled in another thread about the stock camera and GCam. I was being bombarded by posts that derided the stock camera as terrible while GCam could do no wrong. Now, I am a very experienced photographer and I could see little significant difference in results but there were many who were adamant that there was no comparison. I just didn't get it. Perhaps my sight is deteriorating, but I still am pretty fussy about results from my Canon R5. In any case, I was unable to install GCam on my S23U, despite hours of attempts, so the issue is rather moot for me, but it's interesting to see a wider range of views here.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] Deepgreen23:
Fair points, of course, especially the 'never-completeness' of software, but this still seems very early on to release something like this. Anyway, I assume it is not actually out yet and may well be some time before it gets to the UK, so it'll be interesting to see what it contains. Thanks.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] highlightshadow:
If anything it's the soon-after-release in which the most bugs / issues / optimizations will be known about but didn't make the release cut.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] chetszot:
I was recently doing some studio drums recordings and literally, we were considering to use this S23 thing as a room mic xD. I don't joke. I can post sample if you wish
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] hand-filer:
Reminds me of my foray into the audiophile scene back in the late eighties. Subjectivity reigned supreme. The slightest tweaks produced unimaginable sonic improvements :)

I've tried GCam a few times and it's just not for me. The stock camera app is fine for my needs.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] cpufrost:
I guess it could work in a pinch. Def not going to replace a large diaphragm condenser mic!

If it can record lossless (PCM) at 24/96 then score! :-D
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] xwonic:
The preview lag on stock camera during night scenes is just killing me.o_O

I know you can see better with more light in Stock against LMC but i feel like i'm holding a $100 dolar phone.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] chetszot:
Of course you are right. That's why we were considering just a room mic :)

Thing is that it literally could be used such way.
[Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra] chetszot:
I've done comparisons between my current S23 garbage and my 3-year old S20 I loved for its camera.

S20 literally crushed this garbage S23 in every scenario I tested. The only one upperhand S23 has over S20 are videos and recording audio quality I mentioned above.

Thing is that the differences between S20's and S23's photos are so significant, that I cannot literally believe my own eyes. It's not subtle difference for nitpicking and pixel searching. It's noticeable sometimes event without any enlarging the photo.

Ah, I might have forgotten to mention. S23 has also Super Slow Motion feature pretty much killed. S20 recorded true 960 FPS for one second. S23 garbage records 0,5 second 480 FPS enriched by AI to 960 FPS xD. Effect? Artificial movement of objects captured, lacking full movement (eg. bee's wings movement) videos are unusable, feature is literally useless. Flying bee, breaking ice, glass, etc. lacks full motion.