yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch HD General] TTDegs:
I'm with mrpetrov and tonyblack on this one...

(EDIT - sorry, and all others who replied in the same vein since I started typing!)

The HD is also my first HTC device, and also my first WM device too.

I would most definately agree that it is not a phone for the masses, and this is probably equally true of HTC's previous devices.

However, the media (and to a certain extent HTC too) have hyped this phone up - typically with 'iPhone killer' tags.

Whist I'm most definately NOT going to get into that tired old argument again ;), it is true that there is the potential for a large number of people to stumble across the HD as being (on the face of it) a viable alternative to the iPhone.

There will be a number of those people who are disappointed - out of the box, for a novice smartphone user who simply wants to phone / text / play music / browse the web and watch videos, then the HD probably isn't as polished, or easy to use.

These people won't care about, or will be too frightened to find somewhere like this place to work out how to fix and tweak.

So. Back to the point of the OP :)

Do I feel like a 'paying tester'?

A bit, I guess, yes.

But (and this is not necessarily a good thing, just the way things are), this is nearly always the case for early adopters now.

Xbox 360 - early boxes overheat and get the Red Rings of Death.

iPhone - first versions come without 3G

My previous car (8th gen UK Civic) - early models had rear suspension springs installed up side down, fuel caps got stuck closed, built in hands free mic was rubbish.

These things all got fixed over time - but there is absolutely NO way that the manufacturers hadn't noticed them when the release deadline came around.

Someone somewhere said "right then. We HAVE to release this on such and such a date"

"But boss - we haven't finished testing yet!"

"Tough. The PS3 / iPhone 3G / BMW 1 series is out there, or about to be out there, and we need to get something on the market before we loose all our customers"

"But we'll loose them anyway if it blows up!"

"That's why they pay me the big bucks sonny - now hurry up and finish testing what you can"

*

Or something along those lines anyway ;)

Long story (yes, apols for the length of this post!) short - if you want a solid, reliable product that is relatively bug free, then don't buy it on day 1.

* Please note that this conversation was added purely for the purpose of illusttration and probably didn't take place exactly as stated here, or indeed might not have taken place at all, especially at the offices of Microsoft, Honda or Apple. Or any other large corporate who might otherwise be thinking of trying to sue me!
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
I wasnt looking for such a phone but I expect reliability and the chipping and freezing stories let me think I cant have it from the HD.

This is probably true, even though this doesnt make it more right.
[Touch HD General] crystal_clear:
HD compared to...

It would appear, that there seems to be a bit of both sides here.

Whilst it can be said, that some devices have really failed the user, and shortcuts appear to have been taken instead of holding back that little bit more.

The HTC club, allows certain content to be downloaded but not other due to your phone supplier. At the end of the day, small things like this tend to stick in the minds of their potential buyers.

My diamond's lasted 3 months (1 handset per month), HTC wouldnt assist, their advice buy a bigger battery, no problems reported. failure to reply to emails.

Every UK phone provider are aware of the battery short comings.

My provider actually realised the issue's with batteries, and put their hands in their pockets, bought a huge battery bank, the diamond ate it, like a beast and wanted more...

Orange UK, wrote the handset off, and agreed to supply & restart contract, due to the problems of the handset.

HTC did nothing!

I have had 4 htc devices - Orange branded M3100, best device, TyTnII, slipping, Diamond - total Avalanche, And now the HD, hope this is better, but only time will tell.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Excuse me, but there isnt much to interpret. In particular about the freezing issue 66% confirmed it.

Again, I know many do not experience these problems, but many do - not just the usual Nitpickers - and that's the reason why I hesitate to buy it.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Majority are not BOTHERED by the freezing.

Are you so new to Winmo device to be expecting that the phone must not freeze to be worthy of your consideration? If it is, good luck to your purchase of Asus.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Being bothered is naturally a subjective issue. And yes I would be bothered as my Wizard which is a Windows Mobile device as well never had such issues.

And as to the chipping 36% confirmed it here as well. This is not the majority but still far too much - some had scratches after two days.

I cant help but now seem to defend the HD just like Boinng did before with Apple. There are some apparent issues which werent experienced by just a handful of people but by a remarkable amount of people, which you seem to deny however. Are all those with scratched devices respectively hanging phones just dreaming?
[Touch HD General] losdrivare:
Well, I'm in the market for a Blackstone too. But like you, and for mostly the same concerns, I'm holding out at the moment. This, I think is about the only thing you can do as a consumer. If you're not sure you're going to be happy with the product, don't buy it.

I'm NOT willing to pay premium price for a beta product that may or may not become something great in the future. I know that if I have the patience to wait a couple of months I can see what development has done for the phone. At that point, I can get a better product and for a much better price. But, at that point, there might also be something new and more tempting coming out, and I might not buy the Blackstone at all.

The coolest thing about my approach is that the manufacturers won't earn any money off me until the time they have something real to offer. And if that time doesn't come soon enough, they'd have lost me already. If enough people have this approach, the manufacturers will notice and start releasing better products. Products that actually offer a good user experience on top of just looking good at the table of specifications. But of course, I can only decide for myself.

This, I believe, is the ONLY THING YOU CAN DO to make a difference. When you've bought the product it's already too late. Sure, you can complain, let the faults be known, and make as much hassle as you can to everyone involved in selling the beta product. But still, they already have your money, so they won't listen to you all that hard. A consumer who already paid is not a companys priority anymore.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Very good points losdrivare.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
There is a big difference between Boinng and me. I do acknowledge that these problem exist. Boinng did not acknowledge that there is a problem.

While I acknowledge that these problem exist, what I'm saying is that you then got to decide if you are bothered by it. If you're bothered by it, then don't buy it. For those not bothered enough by it will still buy it because there may not be better options at this stage. Of course, we could wait it out but by then technology might have moved on. So.. each has to make whatever decision that makes sense to him.

Fair enough?
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
And you bought it nonetheless the chipping and freezing?

Thats what I will do at least for the moment until there is more information that the problem is fixed.

Well, I'd say the amount of people not bothered by the mentioned problems is very small - disregarding for a moment that many have not encountered them.

Yes, but given the fact that many actually confirmed those issues I think my inital question whether you feel like a paying tester is still valid.

Again, its not like that just a handful of people had the paint peeling or the system hanging.
[Touch HD General] TTDegs:
are we talking about this poll -> http://xdaforums.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1122 ?

Whilst it is (obviously) true that 36% have reported scratches - that's 36% of the 22 people who have been bothered to vote.

Or to put it another way - 8 people.

And these 8 people have my greatest sympathy!

But I'm more than happy to admit that I'm someone who hasn't voted - I'd rather have the phone for more than a week before I comment on it's durability.

Now I'm not sure quite how many actual HD owners we have on here yet - but I'm willing to bet it's more than 22.

IF, as an owner of an HD, you found it was scratched, one of the first things you would do is complain.

And voila - there is a ready made thread for you to do so. Result!

IF, however, as an owner of an HD, you found that it wasn't scratched, would you bother to go searching for a thread to shout about it? Probably not.

Forum Polls, whilst useful in themselves, will ALWAYS have a negative slant to the results, because that's just human nature.

At the end of the day, I'm most certainly not trying to persuade you to get an HD one way or another - and if the possibility of it scratching is a major issue for you, then yes perhaps you need to look elsewhere.

I'm just trying to suggest that perhaps the poll results need to be taken at more than just face value :)
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Could'nt have put it better myself. ;)
[Touch HD General] Xarra:
Freezing - it's Windows. I put up with far worse on my desktop - and it takes longer to reboot! Seriously, I don't really notice it... It may also be affected by what people use the phone for. I use it as an ebook reader primarily, then music player & phone. Not for business use. So I don't expect miracle speeds. And hanging happens. It's a computer. If you say you never have hanging with your home windows PC, then you can expect no hanging from your phone. I got hanging from my WM5 PDA - computer again.

Chipping, not had any, and I seriously abuse my phones (drop them, keep them in my coat pocket uncased, etc...) although I did get a screen protector yesterday. :P

I think it's a fantastic phone, it's flexible on customisation and it does what I want. And, at the end of the day, a little chip wouldn't ruin the ability of it to do it's job. And I thought women were the ones to have raptures over pretty stuff! (And, yes, I'm female...)
[Touch HD General] Bl@ck:
"Do you feel like a paying tester?" No.

and btw every time you buy something you're a paying tester, this happens with everything... games, phones, softwares, that's why they release updates to remove bugs, let the devices/software work better.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
I didn't acknowledge that my iphone had a problem, because it didn't. I also pointed out that the vast majority of fault reports you were posting related to 2.0 software that had since been replaced by version 2.1 delivering improvements to call and signal quality. I'd never used 2.0, which probably explains why I never experienced any of the issues you were digging up.

You'll be pleased to note that since we had that conversation, 2.2 was released over the weekend, containing even more reception improvements (and fixing the only real complaint I had with the phone, those Safari crashes). Where's HTC's fix for the freezing? Or the chipping? Or the wifi issues? Or the broken flight mode?
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
But its not only here. People report it on several other forums as well.

Well, but if it scratches within not even a week its not exactly durable :).

Wouldnt this be an issue for everyone - let along with high priced items like the HD?
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Everytime I change my car, I feel upset if I see scratches. After a few weeks, I don't even bother washing it that regularly and can't be bothered if there are some dents on it. It's to me still a good car although it does not look pretty anymore.

I'm personally not THAT concerned with the peeled paint once I pass the initial excitement. The only things important after that is whether or it it can meet my requirements.

Not trying to defend HTC here, but just to tell you what's my own sense of priority and perspectives.
[Touch HD General] tonyblack:
I have had neither of these issues. Don't drop the phone and it won't get chipped!
[Touch HD General] Nara-e-Mastana:
I felt like a paying tester when i was using iphone....it was like....I was in a Jail and I had so much to do but had very little options...

But with Touch HD..I feel free again :)
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Thats exactly what many people did not confirm. They treated it extremely carefully but it chipped nonetheless.
[Touch HD General] tonyblack:
These percentages refer to those that have responded to the poll. They are in no way reflective of the total HD owner community!
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Yes. That's how polls work.

We can all speculate on what may or may not influence the results of the poll, but the poll's a poll at the end of the day - none of us have anything more scientific to go on. If you own an HD that's not scratched, or not freezing, then go vote accordingly.

If the poll said 99% of HD's were perfect, I'll bet various members here would be shouting that from the rooftops without questioning it too much.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Well, thats what statistics never are.
[Touch HD General] TTDegs:
Very true - no one is denying that there are HDs out there which have scratched.

But again, it will be the people with scratches that complain, whilst the people without scratches will (at best) reply with 'mine is ok'. A lot (like me) simply won't reply at all.

Maybe you ought to count up the names of everyone who has posted up with a scratch issue, and divide that into the total number of HDs sold?

Obviously this isn't viable, as not all owners with scratches will have posted, and you probably won't be able to get the total number sold.

But it would give you a better idea of how big the problem is.

Again, true - which is why I haven't voted either way just yet.

The down side is that unless you have a time machine which can pop 6 / 12 / 18 / "however long you would count 'durable' as" into the future, and check the results then, then basing your purchase decision on the poll results today is basing it on rather incomplete data.

I'm going to quote eaglesteve here - because I couldn't put it any better :)
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Please look at my initial posting, I mentioned I am aware that there are many who didnt complain.

Again, the reason why I was thinking of paying testers is the amount of people who complain in such a short time. I am not saying the basic idea of the HD is bad, it is obvious I would have liked to get one too, but I am afraid the actual produced item may have serious quality issues. Otherwise I couldnt explain all those complaints in such a short time.

Again, its not a handful of people who complain about the scratches. There are many across several forums. Also the freezing issue seems to be popular :) - even if apparently slightly less than the chipping.

Well, this is certainly a subjective thing but I do care about scratches - especially after such a short time and with such a high price.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
drzoid,

Ultimately in order to avoid disaapointment, each of us need to ask ourselves what our real requirements are and what are important to us. Is big screen important? Is keyboard important? Is GPS important? Is office application important? Is beauty of the device important? Is tweaking the unit an curse or a blessing to us? etc.

It is okay for different persons to have different requierments and perspective. It is okay for you NOT to like HD and others to still like it. We need not convince each other and convert the other people to our own camp.

For me personally, Asus is not my preferred solution because for one the screen is not as big. I do give lots of weight to the screen size. I like bigger screen for internet, multimedia, spreadsheet, word, and picture viewing. You may not feel it is necessary but neither of us is more correct than the other. It all depends on what you want to do with it.

Freezing is something I'm familiar with and is not a serious issue. With all the tweaks and tuning idea that many good people share around here, I'm sure I'll be more than happy with the performance, including the multimedia, video playing aspect of it. It match my needs quite well is the bottom line, better than any other device available on the market. If there is a better device, I will switch, but for now there is none. What your think is a better device may not be in my view a better device because our needs are different.

Fair point of view?
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
True.

Except that I am not even in a camp I agree with you :).

Do you refer to the actual size or the resolution? While the P565 is actually a bit smaller the Glaxy7 is supposed to be almost identical. I'd also prefer a bigger screen but still rather prefer a solid case over a chipping one :).

Sure :)
[Touch HD General] donzx6:
I can only speak from my experience....

....which is hopefully spread across this forum....

When new tech is available, there is always a time to market consideration. I've no doubt HTC could produce THE perfect device, but the time it takes for R&D etc, technology will have moved on.

Thus all devices are generally 80% OK, but to eek out the last 20% takes a long time and cost (probably goes up exponentially).

I like the HD, to me (not a big media user), the only real downside I could find was Opera was a little slow, but not unbearable by any means.

.....until the paint started coming off.

Mine has chipped a little on the front (near the home button), and a lot near the stylus slot. The phone has never been dropped and is just over two weeks old. I suspect when replacing the stylus, sometimes it has been sucked in and caught the edge of the paint.

As I bought this sim free (£500), I find this unacceptable to be honest. Again, each to their own but the rate of paint flaking is increasing daily and it won't be long before the handset looks decidedly shabby. My old wizard had paint flaking problems but only after two years - couldn't really grumble at that, but in this case, a £500 handset to degrade after two weeks is just not on for me.

So I've emailed both HTC and the retailer and will be returning the unit. I've no idea what to get as a replacement, I'll probably just go back to my Kaiser for now.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
If I am not wrong, Glaxy 7 is 3.5 inch, right?

I would have prefered a 4.5 inch screen, but other than Athena, HD has the biggest screen now.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Yes, almost like the HD.

But thats where we have different requirements. The HD is already almost too large. 4,5 would be almost a small notebook for me :).
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
I hear you. Your preference is no less valid than mine. The good thing about HTC is that they produce phones of all shape and sizes so that all of us have the choice. That's also why even a phone of Athena's size can still find a small group of enthusiastic users.

So, waiting for Glaxy 7?
[Touch HD General] mkOnKeY bOy:
Not in my experience. None of the problems you mention have affected me.

There are some right whining so-and-so's about.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Actually I dont know at the moment :).

The M8 would look great also in terms of the touch screen but no 3G. The P565 is not yet out and there is no experience with it either. The Glaxy7 is just a rumor - even if a very nice one.

The HD would have looked perfect for me, but not with those reports.
[Touch HD General] lolism:
Probably the best advice going. The same thing happened with Windows Vista.

A few months ago I needed to get a new CPU, and decided I should get Vista 64BIT to make use of the 8GB of memory i'd be using- the only thing putting me off was all the negitive comments and problems. I've had it a while now and no problems.

Best way is to try the phone and see, you can always return it within 7 days.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Well, but the chipping and even the freezing to some extent cannot be subjective opinions.

Only if it is in perfect condition - which chipping would make impossible :). Also EUR 600 is a bit too much to play with.
[Touch HD General] Anfloyd:
The HD may not have a capacitive screen, but has anyone here owned a WM device which is as responsive a this one? I my opinion I think the HD offers the best of both worlds. Responsiveness - with the lightest of finger touches, and precision with the stylus.
[Touch HD General] nin2thevoid:
I AM ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED MY HD HAD SCRATCHED.

But the scratching is so barely visible, that I consider retracting that vote, especially now seeing how much value people put into the votes. I am a perfectionist. Yet this is so little, it barely bothers me. Hairline scratches, thats all. Do you know what hairline scratches look like? I got NO paint pealing or what so ever.

Freezes? Say what you will about HTC but they are known to fix such issues quite fast. I have no doubt that the next firmware update or the one after that (which was already in the making a while ago) will eliminate this issue.

THEY IMPROVED SO MUCH on this device since the Diamond, in so little time. That's why I don't mind being an early adopter.

Paying beta tester? To some extent, yes. But despite some issues, I still vote this device at LEAST a 9 out of 10, iron out some bugs, add some more cool apps and it WILL be perfect for me, and I am very picky with gadgets. Based on the speed by which my Diamond received fixes for every problem it had, I don't expect the HD to be far away from its first major tune up.
[Touch HD General] nin2thevoid:
Exactly. I don't care really if it's capacitive or not. I WANT a screen which I can touch lightly without triggering the screen. I am used to having to press something. As a result, I type a lot faster on the HD than on the iPhone I had, and the HD screen is also much more sensitive than the Diamond, making scrolling much easier. Also because of the many superior keyboards that are available for WinMo, but mainly because there is still a (very small) line between touching and pressing.

Not being able to use a stylus was also a miss for me. Sometimes I don't want touch optimized bulky "intuitive" UI, sometimes I want lots of stuff on one screen and use a stylus (Office, PocketInformant, etc). This adds a lot.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Sorry, but that's rubbish. The Tytn II has the same glitching and freezing, and has had on and off since it was released over a year ago - it's an intermittent thing and doesn't affect every device all the time, but it's certainly there, and HTC never fixed it. In fact, apart from one ROM release to bring WM 6.1 (still with the same pauses) they barely supported the phone at all.

There were hotfixes to "improve" the camera which made absolutely no difference for most people at all, and a fix for a bluetooth problem nobody even knew about, but no fix for the freezing, no improvement to the video performance which people were crying out for, and no fix for the QuickGPS problem that the 6.1 update introduced either. The only real improvements to anything in a year of using that phone came from the devs here, and in all fairness to their efforts, even that was quite limited.

I think that sums HTC up - more than happy to introduce an improved model, but no interest in improving the products they've already released. You're stuck with what you've got.
[Touch HD General] arfster:
Yeah, I suppose you could call the HD a bit beta. The freezing thing in particular is just shoddy.

Still, the hardware is excellent, and I don't mind tweaking things - indeed the ability to customize things to the nth degree is a major benefit of Windows Mobile.