yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
the performance sucks because there are no 3d drivers. Opengl es is just a software renderer using the CPU. check the about page in touchflo 3d, they give credit to the vincent3d software opengl es renderer. d3d is also just a wrapper around the software implementation of opengl es. everyone jumped the gun and thought drivers were included because opengl es and d3d programs ran.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Ouzo:
missingnoo - how did you get a response out of HTC? I'm impressed! For me another week has gone by, and I still haven't had a response to any of the emails I've sent to them (other than the automated response of course). Perhaps I need to be nicer ; )

The really sad part is that I sense most of us really want to like our devices, and I for one feel a certain amount of loyalty to HTC for opening my eyes to Windows Mobile and an 'all-in-one' device that does everything I want. Well, SHOULD do everything I want, LOL.

On the plus side, at least there are a lot of clever poeple around here who keep on making HTC's devices better and better for them, and help each other out ; )
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] owilsky:
Me too. I have the German O2 XDA Touch Diamond Pro which is the Touch Pro. I use the Original HTC ROM and I get 25 fps in Diamond Hologram without having anything changed with my drivers.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
You seemed to have jumped the gun yourself. Credits do not equal truth esp if you've played with Vincent at all.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] mrvanx:
FYI, Ive stuck this thread (after it was requested) because it seems to be leading to a htc-classaction.org -esque thread (which the raph could do with ;) ).

and an additional FYI the ati_d3dm.dll was included in the original WWE 405 rom for the raphael, ive used it ever since in the ROMs ive made, not sure if it makes any difference but i was informed the d3dm dlls in the other builds werent as good. I have no evidence for or against this...just happened to find its way into the builds.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
What to you mean exactly by 'there are no 3d drivers'?

What about this?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
you're right, i did jump the gun. I took some more time to study the situation and get more info to see what it really going on. I disassembled the libgles_cm.dll and as it turns out, it is indeed accessing the ati hardware. Theres also alot of references to qualcomm,msm7x chipset and ati technologies in there.

Regarding performance Issues. I went on the glbenchmark site and compared the touch pro with the highest rated devices like the n95 and iphone. The Touch pro kills everthing with texture filters,texture size and triangles . The only areas where it suffers too much is lights. I think thats what caused it to get such a low score with glbenchmarks.

So now we only have an opengl es driver that has a problem rendering certain area(ex:lights) which in turn is causing it to give such terrible performance with 3d games. D3DM is just a wrapper,so performance will be lower than opengl es rendering. We also dont have any kind of 2d drivers except for the software windows ones,so the device and os feel really sluggish. Video playback suffers because of the 2D driver issue.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
The only results that have been "reliable" to me have been the HD and the Pro benchmarks which test a realistic game engine with all "normal" effects running from either a Quake-ish one, or the dinosaur one.

Reason to ignore most of the pure synthetic tests especially the triangle ones (except swapbuffers, lights, and multitexturing fillrate) is they're way, way off to be even believable when compared to the more realistic game-engine tests. It's 3 million triangles when tested on the Kaiser/Polaris which is many ranges away from every single device in the database, and points more to a flaw in the benchmark such as the driver is doing no-op fake triangles.

Lighting usually involves floating-point calculations that can be cpu-based, and the Qualcomm cpus just do not have the ARM vector floating-point processor (Apple[Samsung] and Nokia[TI], and Moto Q[TI]) which would accelerate these calculations up to 22x.

So, we got partial hardware acceleration (hardware blitting and surfaces, 2 hardware texture-units to accelerate multi-texturing and per-pixel lighting), and the rest is probably just optimized emulation through the cpu. Maybe that's why it doesn't qualify for ogles 1.1 which demands a lot more functionality is hardware accelerated.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
i just did the texture filters,texture size and triangle tests with a n95 8gb and a kaiser side by side. the n95 would render graphics while the kaiser would only give a black screen,so youre right those numbers cant be accurate.

I just have to say that the quake like rendering demo wasnt too too bad.Its certainly not as smooth as the n95,but its acceptable. The dragon demo on the other hand was really bad ,even though its still pretty choppy on the n95.

Im guessing htc wanted at least some 3d to develop touchflo 3d,so the driver was cooked up pretty quick and not too much work was done to optimize it. We have drivers now,but its pretty much useless for gaming and video, too bad.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Is this about the kaiser or the raphael? Maybe I missed something.

By the way, is there a linear relationship between resolution and framerate for common openGL tests, or are there some other factors/bottlenecks to consider.

Is it valid to directly compare performance of two devices at different resolutios?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
i used the drivers from the raphael on the kaiser,since the kaiser and n95 have the same resolution, just so i can make a fair comparison between the 3d chips(kaiser and raphael have the same 3d chip). i think since the raphael has a higher resolution,the performance won't be as great as a lower resolution device like the kaiser. i did try glbenchmark on the raphael though to do this test,but after a seconds in the test,it would just crash,so i cant give you a definite answer if at different resolutions they produce different results.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Loco5150:
But the thing I dont understand is why the hell the reviews dont say the device has really poor video performance.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
I also tried glbenchmark with the same result. There are touch pro results up there though so it apparently can be made to work.

I took the glbenchmark .exe and disabled the hi res aware flag, hoping to get some measure of QVGA equivalent performance, and it runs in 1 quarter of the screen, and much faster than the VGA version, but it still fails half way throught the test.

If anyone knows how to get glbenchmark running....
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Bimboy:
I've read that people want benchmarking utilities information, for this to be taken more seriously... Well here ya go. Wish I still had my Axim X51v to compare.

Very interesting results on a couple of benchmarking tests:

Side-by-Side comparison using SPB Graphics Benchmark between:

ATT Tilt (Kaiser) with newest htcclassaction.org drivers

ATT Fuze (Raphael) with newest Diamond d3dm_ati drivers

Results: (lower is better)

Kaiser

Graphics Test: DDB BitBlt --- 1ms

Graphics Test: DIB BitBlt --- 30ms

Graphics Test: GAPI BitBlt --- 2ms

Raphael

Graphics Test: DDB BitBlt --- 7ms

Graphics Test: DIB BitBlt --- 25ms

Graphics Test: GAPI BitBlt --- 6ms

Side-by-Side comparison using VSBenchmark 2007 between:

Results:(higher is better)

Kaiser

Graphics Test 1 -- 1373

Others Test 2 -- 2021

JPEG Test 3 -- 2465

Games Test 4 -- 1524

Sound Test 5 -- 0562

Final: 1589

Raphael

Graphics Test 1 -- 1675

Others Test 2 -- 1708

JPEG Test 3 -- 4428

Games Test 4 -- 1174

Sound Test 5 -- 2499 << This value should be thrown out for this comparo though, and affects overall score greatly

Final: 2296

As you can see the Raphael graphics and gaming lag behind even the Kaiser, which even with the updated drivers, is not known to be a speed demon by any means.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Pampered4Life:
Absolutely Not

I understand that you have had three or more issues with the ATT Tilt and therefore Warranty Exchange has offered you a full kit for a HTC Fuze however if I were you then I would re(FUZE) that offer and have them send me out the replacement as a tilt. By receiving the fuze you will likely be more disappointed due to the shrinking of the keyboard keys to make room for the extra row. As in the fuze has 5 rows smaller keys versus tilt 4 rows larger keys. Furthermore the tilt, TILTS. The only difference is touchflo3d which isnt even cool. It takes over takes and consumes the entire device. HTC removed the all the keys ie, the soft key buttons are gone. The dedicated camera button is gone. The windows menu keys is gone. The side key marked OK is gone. The scroll wheel has been replaced by volume buttons instead. The today screen is no longer due to TFLO3D. ALthough it can be disabled. But whats the point. May as well stick with what works till WM 7 and 8 Devices are available!!!!!! Hope this helps however the choice is YOURS.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
i got it to work. i just tested each test separately. just uncheck everything, and try only a few at a time,it will work.

surprisingly, the two scenes rendered(the quake like and the dragon) actually seemed to me like they were faster on the raphael than on the kaiser. maybe its due to the beefier cpu. I was expecting the opposite since the raphael has 4 times the resolution.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] mxl180:
If I download this where would I copy this directly?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
well i finally got quake 3 running on the kaiser in 320x240 resolution using the 3d hardware. this was great to test against quake3 running on the n95. on the kaiser it would keep crashing on the loading screen before it got to gameplay. i figured it out and it turns out the kaiser doesnt have enough ram. i cut my ram usage,changed some settings in the game and got it to start. theres one problem now. some textures are just plain and arent displaying. im pretty sure its because of the lack of ram.

anyways, im averaging 15fps and sometimes goes up to 22fps. gameplay is pretty smooth,nothing like that youtube vid of the game running on the diamond. its so much better than that. its fully playable and enjoyable. im thinking that if it was possible to get it to play on the raphael in 320x240 res and because of the faster cpu it should run almost fully smooth and close to 30fps,especially if the game code was also optimized for that cpu. maybe the 3d hardware isnt so bad afterall.

i dont know if its running that quick just because im not getting all the textures. does anyone know where i can download a small level because of the limited ram?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
here a youtube vid.crappy quality because i recorded with a phone cam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB5Xtd0-6Lo
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Ayle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvci1vTXyUo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZO7tAZK9YU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIk0wSTH6y4&feature=related

Cough... Remember that those other devices have less ram and a slower CPU than the Touch Pro... And 15fps is slow for Q3... Man I just hope that they use Intel or Samsung hardware in their next devices because this is just getting ridiculous.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
He didn't say 15fps on the Touch Pro. No one has said they got q3 running on the Raphael in QVGA res yet AFAIK, so we don't know what it will be like.

My guess would be between the Kaiser and the N95.

However, I think we can have some idea from this, and the fact we know that the N95 has marginally superior hardware acceleration.

BTW, shouldn't this be in the OMG Q3 thread?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] tsadek:
As a kaiser owner I've read this with great interest and am counting my lucky stars that orange aren't carrying the touch pro.

But..they are carrying the xperia - does anyone know for sure whether this problem is also affecting the x1??
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] owziee:
I wonder how Call of Duty 2 can run so great on the Diamond...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU7FI4rf5Wo&feature=related

It must be using the GPU after all!? But does it utilize it correctly only with this game ?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] nuke1:
From the Diam forum here again. ^ You may want to try out CoD2...
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] iRiKi:
sweet :D btw can i have your .cfg plz? :D

yes, it's using the 3D GPU, through OpenGL|ES CM implementation via the libgles_cm.dll driver.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
Let it be said that current Qualcomm ARM11 cpus are permanently cursed, and when you add HTC, it's double-hexed.

Think of it as:

Qualcomm: -2 bonus

HTC: -1 bonus

LG: +1 bonus

Samsung: +1 bonus

Toshiba: +1 bonus

OMAP 24xx: +2 bonus

Samsung SCxxxx cpu: +1 bonus

PowerVR: +2 bonus

do the math. :P
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
im using the standard cfg file that came with the release.also delete libgles_cm.dll and gx.dll that comes with it so it can use the one in your win directory. Make sure all apps are closed and you dont have a homescreen plugin running,since u need all the ram you can. When you open the game go to settings then sound,and turn sound quality to low.If its set to high,it will crash.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rkmoray:
What to get

I am getting new hardware in the next week. I was going to get the Diamond Pro. But after reading this forum, I don't think I should. Sounds like the phone is not very good. I like the touchscreen, with the full qwerty keyboard though.....Any suggestions(I was considering the Storm, but I prefer Windows to RIM or Iphone).
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
Don't forget to put up a review on Amazon, also.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Hamstah:
Personally I still love my touch pro - it has all the features I want in a phone, and the graphics issue isn't a major problem for me. I've got core player, and it plays my normal 350MB XviD and DivX videos without any jittering or sync issues, and the rest of the graphics issues aren't that much of a bother to me. I wouldn't use my cell phone to play quake 3 even if it did run smoothly (though, tbh, I haven't tested it yet).

If you want a phone for 3D games, then perhaps the Touch Pro (or Diamond Pro) isn't what you're looking for - but in terms of how the phone compares to other phones, I love the keyboard, the high res screen for videos and all the other little extras that make up the package. I looked very seriously at the Omnia, the iPhone, the Xperia X1, various Nokia models and the blackberry range - the only phone that appealed to me was the Touch Pro, and it still is.

And with any luck, between everyone participating in this thread, we'll get new drivers that will make the graphics scream :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
I don't want to show off, but I have a Raphael, Kaiser, iPhone 3G and a G1 on my desk right now, as it's my job to write software for mobile messaging and we have a gazillion test phones; I can use any one I want as my day to day phone.

Honestly, I choose the Raphael. I won't say why, as it's all documented before.

I love the G1 for browsing, it's great with the trackball. I really am hopeful for Android; I think it's the one for me down the line, but only when you can get something like the software that's available for WM devices. This is not often mentioned in phone p*ssing contests, but this is where WM devices shine.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] tsadek:
Learn HTC fools, LEARN!

I don't think there is any debate that wm is the place to be.

Its just so DAMN annoying the HTC hasn't learned! What a bunch of idiots!!!!!!!
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] fillip:
Did installing the xperia graphics drivers improve the performance atall? For me the most frustrating thing is playing videos it's so laggy and it slows the whole fone down so you arent even able to pause the video or anything! and i have tried core player and no difference. has anybody tried extracting the 2d drivers from xperia etc and ran on pro to see if videos run any better?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
Hey, help comment/rate this guy's Amazon review if you agree or not:

http://www.amazon.com/review/produc...tBy=bySubmissionDateDescending#R3075XQ658EVMJ
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] systoxity:
we need to turn this into a movement and keep messaging htc and att and see if they will do anything about it. its sad having the capability but not drivers to utilize it :(
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] glenm201:
Did you try closing Opera before playing video?

I stumbled across this issue trying to get Orb working on my phone. If I used Opera to get to the orb site then play the video it was downright awful, using WMP or Core. If I used IE, it worked MUCH better on both. Try making sure Opera isn't in the background when playing video. It's not a 100% cure-all for the sucky HTC drivers, but it makes a BIG difference.

--glen
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] daniel_rh:
Ohh hoho, I can see how it is repeating the history of the Kaiser all over again with the latest models
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] StevePritchard:
Am I missing something, or is it just the 3D graphics performance that people are unhappy about (as opposed to other graphics performance)? I think I'm in the same boat as you in my usage patterns, although my HTC Touch Pro is neatly wrapped up and I don't get it until Christmas, so I can't test stuff. However, I do know that my friend who has a Vodaphone Touch Pro, as it came from the carrier, tried Hologram and got 25fps on smooth - and didn't get the .14 fps nightmare.

I wonder if those drivers are any different to those ported from the Diamond, etc?

Cheers,

Steve.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] pyraxiate:
I am so glad I read this thread before splurging on a Fuze. If it only has equal performance to the Tilt and does not by far exceed it, then there is no reason to buy it. Maybe when they come down to 109USD like the tilt is , then ill switch.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] groofoo:
well, my HTC touch pro, came with the drivers mentioned in this thread (early postings) called "libgles_cm.dll" and "d3dm_ati.dll".

the hologram app gives me 25fps and sometimes 16fps, so i guess it is good.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rcll:
Is there hope for proper drivers from the xda community?

Could someone with knowledge explain the process of creating drivers that fully utilize the hardware in our Raphaels? What are the major problems holding us back?

Is it impossibly difficult to do this without HTC's help? Do we have to start an HTC class action v2 to get reasonably productive?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
It's a different situation to the one that was affecting the Kaiser. That phone had absolutely no HW support and all graphics were done in software, that is, until the xda devs sorted it out.

There is HW support for OpenGL in the stock Raphael drivers (I have a vanilla unlocked HTC Raphael, ie not from a carrier, and openGL is fine), but phones from some carriers seem to be releasing phones without the stock drivers correctly installed or configured.

There is some doubt that the Direct3D drivers are as they should be, so I'm not saying everything is dandy.

Where this leaves us is a that we have HW accelerated devices, but the range of software that is developed and tested to run to the full potential of these devices is poor. This is not likely to improve as this is seen as a business phone.

As for creating new drivers, in the absence of manufacturer documentation of the hardware, this takes reverse engineering and is generally an impossible task. Manufacturers generally don't share the inner workings of their hardware, as this is their stock in trade, and they don't want you to see how they do things.

The best hope is to take drivers intended for other phones and see which ones work, which is what people have been doing.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] tursoke:
I tried out few video types, and it indeed seems that wmv9 chokes up the phone pretty good at least at 2000kbps bit rate@640x480, but divx and xvid at the same resolution works just fine even at 1500kbps(didn't find a divx with bigger bitrate which really isn't a surprise). Used coreplayer 1.2.5 while testing
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] shafez:
libgles_cm.dll and d3dm_ati.dll were available in Raphael roms till 1.93.xxx.x.

Starting 1.94.xxx.x, Htc replaced the d3dm_ati.dll with htc_d3dm.dll which does not perform as good as d3dm_ati.dll and the hologram app gives 14fps.

The Touch Hd also does not have the d3dm_ati.dll.

Regards
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] reap3r:
Is there any way that you could maybe upload your drivers for other people? If you say that your OpenGL HW support works fine, would this be the case with other users if they utilized your drivers?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
When I say mine is fine, I mean I don't have the 0.14 fps problem with hologram. It performs at a good frame rate without any help on my Raphael.

It has already been mentioned in this thread that you can get drivers from here if you have a slow frame rate on hologram, so I can't add anything to that.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] nuke1:
Not to sound offensive, but if I agreed with your views, then I would be calling for this thread to be shut down as it serves no practical purpose.

As for me personally, then I think the drivers which fully utilise the phone's hardware are not present. Some makeshift drivers have been concocted by HTC, rather than Qualcomm coughing up. Or am I wrong?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
I think the message going on is we shouldn't have to pay so much $$$ for same, or worse performance, as a circa 2002 device. Looking at the SPB Benchmarks, even when the Touch Pro (as the Diamond) trumps the Omnia in cpu, Omnia is still 4-5x faster on multimedia, as it a modern device should be.

This is a benchmark that hasn't changed for years. Even the Kaiser is 2x better on the graphics index versus Touch Pro. A QVGA vs VGA screen shouldn't be that different in today's GPU-accelerated world.

So, HTC devices may be getting more iPhone-like, but the performance has a Qualcomm boat-anchor around the neck dragging it down further.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] systoxity:
this is extremley frustrating. i paid so much for this device when i could have easily gotten a kaiser for free and had better performance. this company really needs to get it together :(
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] neimad:
No, the performance issues have nothing to do with the 3D drivers. It is a 2D performance problem. I installed the ATI 3D drivers, and i did get a performance boost using some 3D apps, but the 2D games I play are still far, far, FAR slower than my old Wizard 200mhz phone - which runs the same 2D games fluidly while the touch pro struggles to make screen updates.

while the 3D drivers are nice to have, the 2D performance is still worse than an old Wizard running the same games.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] naimed:
This becomes realy realy reeaaly retarded! WTF is going on HTC! :confused:There need to come a fix for this of this will be my very last HTC forever! I Recommend this device to nobody else untill this is fixed :mad: i am very very disapointed.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Not offensive at all. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

There are many facets to 'Touch Pro Performance'. I was addressing one point; whether we have hardware acceleration. And while it's not perfect, I'm simply saying, yes we do. You just have to see COD2 running in accelerated VGA to witness this.

I am also frustrated at the lack of utilisation of this great device, and there are many factors, including WM itself. Anyone who's played with a G1 can testify to this.

So, I wouldn't say you're wrong at all, it's just a convoluted issue, and this thread is valid IMHO.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Agree to an extent, but the simple fact remains that VGA does make a difference, and quite a big one in fact. Let's not forget it's 4x the pixels of the Kaiser.

BTW, I have finally got Nyditot working, so I can run the device in QVGA. I'm working with this now, and might do some benchmarks.