yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
If the video issue was the only problem...

Sometime it really annoys me how poor can perform... When I was thinking to switch from my HTC Tornado (TI OMAP 850 CPU (180Mhz)) I was saying the performance difference must be enormous , but I find that those qualcomm CPUs are crap or the drivers sucks.. (but I tend to think it's the first variant). I really want that my device to perform well while listening to music, not to wait 1-2 sec for Start Menu to appear (atention, Start Menu, not Programs list, while scrolling in that list the things are so laggy, but that's a WM issue, so I pass. I've got a lot of apps installed)

I'm really dissapointed of crappy performance. My first and last qualcomm cpu-enabled device. If I know that before buying... but no one complains of this, all worship it (for eg, see gsmarena review).

An advice for interested people in buying Touch Pro: if you want a good device PASS touch pro.

It simply doesn't deserve it's price. It has a lot of super nice features (5 row qwerty, plenty of RAM, good amount of ROM, accelerometer, multiple sensors, good shape, superb VGA resolution, HSPDA, etc etc) but has soo many issues (low volume, crap speakerphone/earpiece, music gap, slider play, gps lag, poor directdraw performance, landscape redraw issue, poor overall system performance..)

I really expected way much more from a 2008 year device and especially from HTC!

BTW, I'm using a custom ROM (T.I.R V8), so no I'm not using the factory ROM

What I'm wondering is that just a few owners joined the topic.. so, I guess, that the performance of your touch pro doesn't bother you..

then, we shouldn't be surprised if HTC isn't interested. They think that we are happy with the performance of the device.

Edit: http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf - see page 13. And that's MSM72000. We got MSM7201A chipset on Touch Pro (better). So in final may be HTC fault? I'm so confused
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Gav_:
Yep, have to agree the performance is abysmal. I heard HTC didn't want to pay some company for a proper graphics driver.... but thats just hearsay.

And have you seen the HTC HD? From the youtube videos I've watched ot goes like s**t off a shovel, seems they managed to get that thing working properly, if they'd only do an update for other devices.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.

Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0

"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"

If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.

* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip

http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420

Is that fair..?

I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..

@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] djcaston:
I totally TOTALLY agree. I mean how can we fix this? How much time is going to go by until the chipset can finally do what it should be able to do?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] p51d007:
The only take I have on these devices, is that they are pretty much marketed as "business class" devices. Yeah, they will play video, but you know that if they market it as a "business" device, they probably won't do much. If they

marketed it as a gaming device, or video music player, it might be a different

story. They made a Swiss army knife, but it doesn't do any of them well.

I'm happy with my TP, but I don't listen to music or watch videos, other than once in a while a youtube. I have mine for receiving email, text messages & phone calls, which, if you could get an honest answer from HTC, is where they think the market is for these devices.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
@djcaston only HTC & Qualcomm knows..

No idea how we can fix this, but we should do something (make this public, e-mail htc, publish on mobile news site, etc). The solution/answer SHOULD come from the companies mentioned above.

@p51d007 but the DIAMOND is marked as a "business class" device too? I don't think so.

Even as a business device is not working too good. Just try some powerpoint presentations, open a doc file and see how much time it takes to load.

So..

I've made more comparisons.

Quake III Arema

Nokia N82 - Symbian S60 QVGA

TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz, chipset launched in 2005

Graphic: PowerVR MBX

In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0

Dell Axim x51v - WM VGA

Intel XScale PXA270 @ 624 MHz, chipset launched in 2004

Graphic: Intel 2700G5 Multimedia Accelerator

In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEuEGqYZNek

Touch Pro/Diamond

Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008

Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?

In action: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x8_wfWaYa_w

(the device in video is a touch pro)

SEGA Sonic 3 (Picodrive emulator)

Same emulator on both devices.

The hardware acceleration does not count as the last test includes Picodrive emulator that doesn't use HW acceleration at all. However, you can see that on SPV C600 the gameplay is smooth, something that we cannot say about the one on touch pro.

HTC Tornado (SPV C600)

TI OMAP 850 @ 200 MHz, overclocked at 252Mhz, chipset launched in 2005

Graphic: no Hardware Acceleration

In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmUxwGBmMc

Touch Pro/Diamond

Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008

Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?

In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLD8OGFk8w

(the device in video is a touch pro)

As you see, touch pro is below EVERYTHING. A tehnology from year 2008 is so way behind a tehnology from 3-4 years ago. It's looks so anormally to me..

@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] p51d007:
Point taken....the only response I could say would be HTC & graphics DON'T go together LOL...;)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] chronster:
I saw some xperia drivers posted once that people were saying made the touch pro run better. Anyone ever look into this?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] slovoflud:
i'm from Diamond forum, but totally get what you're all saying here
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Ouzo:
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] missingnoo:
Just sent them an email myself. Hopefully enough people email them

so that we may get a proper update! Its ridiculous when I can barely run Quake 3 on this thing while my Viewsonic PPC runs it just fine!

And its not just about playing games either. The whole phone feels laggy..

Sorry to complain so much, but I paid good money for this thing.. :)

And I like the design so much, I dont wanna return it just yet....
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Coming from a Kaiser, and putting Elite RC1 on my Raphael, I was reasonably satisfied - until I got a G1.

Side by side is like pentium vs 486. My point being, they are running similar hardware, so I'm not sure the Qualcomm chipset is so crap after all.

I haven't seen any 3d accelerated stuff yet, but I know these devices are capable of great 3d gaming.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] dr g:
Indeed, as an Axim X50v owner I am dismayed at how immensely better it is in the graphics department, for a device so much older. HTC, Qualcomm or perhaps even a carrier needs to get off their hands and take care of the customers. Publicity may be one of the few tools we have, but I guess we might as well use it. Posting your displeasure here is as good an action as any, but take the time to comment or reply in any venue that you see these issues being discussed.

C'mon manufacturers/suppliers ... get those damn drivers out!
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] shadykw:
i do agree.

i began to get frustrated with my TP that i started thinking of selling it, there are alot of things that arent going well at all in its preformance, and since the thread is about preformance in general i have a bad experience with my TP laginess. and GPS for example my wife bought a diamond a couple of days ago, and some how her Diamond gets a fix in less than 30 seconds, my TP takes considerably longer. the device is really really laggy, i sometimes wonder it recieved my click or not when i touch the screen. and its video preformance is extreemly poor. i mean i have an XDA flame and a toshiba g900, i thought the G900 is a crappy phone but it has GoForce 5500 chipset with some driver update its video is becomming amazingly fast and smooth.

what makes me angry lets say is that im a WM fanatic and the company where i work distributed iphones on all of us to use in our business tasks, it was a surprise to be honest that the Iphone took over this market really wiered, but after testing it for a while its much faster than the TP and it scores much higher in all tests with a massive diffrence, the only WM phone that came near the Iphone is the Samsung omnia, i think i already know why. both are samsung CPUs i tested the samsung omina of my friend and i think the Omnia is the WM version of the Iphone.

THough HTC is the bigger sister in the smart phone world but she is letting her clients badly down with crappy drivers and sometimes crappy PDs.

best regards

Kevin
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] deisama:
I was running benchmarks and got some interesting results

SPB Benchmark: Portrait mode:

DDB BitBlip:4ms

DIB BitBlip:24ms

GAPI BitBlip:6ms

But when I ran it in landscape (270 and 90 degrees) is was terrible!

DDB: 17ms

DIB: 149ms

GAPI: 10ms

Even 180 is significanly slower than regular portrait:

DDB:4ms

DIB 100ms

GAPI:10ms

logically, these scores should all be identical, because its copying the same number of pixels on the screen. I wonder whats going on that its so much worse when its rotated
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] fotoingo:
Asus got it right where Htc fails

Check out the Benchmark-Comparison with the new Asus P565 here :

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=466435
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rexian:
I was keeping an eye on this thread hoping for some solution, now it seems everybody lost interest :(

It's really sad that even with better h/w Fuze is not able to compete with others. Even my coworker's Tilt on stock 6.1 ROM feels more responsive than my Fuze (NATF 4.0 ROM) ... but I got better video though ... and it looks pretty too !
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] scott8813:
second that. Where's the inevadable final fix the worlds waiting for. At least some kind of breakthrough or progression.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] iRiKi:
new Shaks.P v3.00 Based on 2.03.401.2 ROM for Diamond now features a whopping 98%! :eek:

Hopefully the TP will get 2.0 ROM's too!
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
I prefer to know what's *IN* the ROM that makes this difference.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] nuke1:
Howsabout you have a look *IN* the ROM to check differences?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
And how does someone do that?

(esp. without installing it)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
Interesting, but we still need at least 100-120% (because in static scenes you get more and in action scene you get less) for a fluid playback :D.

How's on normal playback? Does it shutter (eg: the image stop for a while, sound keep goin')?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] iRiKi:
neither down, the video is quite fluid despite but you have to see to believe it :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] djgandy:
This may be a stupid question. Does the ATI chip support 2D acceleration or is it a 3D accelerator only i.e. old school 3dfx style?

Surely the graphics chip should be handling 2D loads too?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] asbestos:
I was in the market for a new phone and being a life long WiMo fan I stopped by the local AT&T store and checked out the fuse.

Damn.

My 8525 performs just as well if not better.

Talk about a total bummer. I was really looking forward to a nice upgrade.

I did the unthinkable and bought an iPhone. Granted, it only does 90% of what a WiMo phone does, but it does those things 100% better.

I am still shaking my head wondering how the hell I ended up with an iPhone.

Next thing I know I will be wearing bright colors and be gay. That will sure freak my wife of 18 years out!

I just wanted a really nice HTC phone. Guess that's were I made the mistake.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
Your statements are a bit to the extreme.

If it was not 1:30 in the night, I might take some time to answer how the iPhone doesn't do 90% of what WM does (maybe 60 is a better percentage, plus 10-15 of what iPhone does that WM does not) and how it doesn't do them better (at least 100% of them).

This would also lead us off topic.

Granted Touch Pro and its TF3D could be much better based on the hardware used.

It is not that bad though. Much better overall (stress on that word) than any of my previous WM and clearly better in the long run than any of my iPhones (longest I held one was for 2 months). Nice phone iPhone, but mostly just that "a phone" (yes mine was unlocked and with many apps added etc.).

Esp. in the enterprise (ok that doesn't necessarily mean something to you) just no contest. No contest whatsoever.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] asbestos:
My intention isn't to draw any comparison to the iPhone. I love windows mobile!

The short time I spent with the fuse was disappointing is all I was saying.

I have seen some good progresson from custom roms and if it looks like it is getting better I may try my luck with a fuse.

Sorry if I struck a nerve in regards to the iPhone.

I am a hardcore enterprise user with custom windows mobile apps that my organization uses hence the desire for a hot new windows phone :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
No nerve struck, don't worry.

I don't have anything against iPhone - for me was an "ok" experience, it had a certain initial "wow" factor, but more of the gimmick type. Esp. when I discovered that I could do some thing unbelievable easily and then some others not at all (which is not something I would trade, ever).

I understand your frustration too, I just think your statements where a bit to the extreme, exactly because of that.

I still want to see The Ultra-Smooth WM device. Never seen one - ever. Maybe it cannot be done with this underlying infrastructure than WinCE and WM6.1 is. Still I would never choose to loose all that it gives.

Anyway...
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] warenbe:
perhaps wm 7 will be the ultra smooth wm :D

(well i'm not convinced about this but but i hope...)

btw, next time i want to by a pocket pc, perhaps i'll look on the other manufacturers than HTC..

but if i buy a pocket pc other than a htc, i'll loose the great xda-developer resource

(sorry for bad english)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] asbestos:
There certainly can be smooth windows mobile devices. I have an HP Ipaq. It's stuffed in a box right now so I forget the model number. It has a 524 mhz chip in it, 64 megs of ram and it works great. It of course wont run TF 3d, but anything else I have thrown at it it does much better than any other windows mobile device I have had.

It can happen, it just takes a company willing to make it that way.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
oh please don't get me started on HP iPAQs

btw, HP is not "willing" to do anything for you
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Hamstah:
The only company I've seen so far "willing" to release a high performance mobile device is Asus with their latest 800MHz beast. NVidia are also looking good with their new mobile graphics chip soon to be seen - this information is, however, irrelevant to this thread as the Touch Pro has the specs to perform but doesn't (not as well as it should anyway).
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
I don't see having too much to say ON topic further...
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] nuke1:
Then, to be honest, don't say anything :p.

djgandy asked an important question. Does anyone know if the ATI Imageon chip is supportive of 2D as well as 3D?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] savageslave:
Hi, Just wondering exactly which CORE Media player you are using to bench, and if using the TCPMP version 0.72RC1 would make a difference.

My XDA Serra is ok with most things and most of the tweeks that have been suggested for better playback have already been implemented on it, standard.

Still trying to watch a film or VGA series is not the best experience, I had better playback on my MDA Vario II.

An episode of bleach gave me these results:

Average Speed

15.89%

Video Frames

5006

Audio Samples

10038997

Amount of Data

41362 KB

Bench. Time

21:54.163

Bench. Frame Rate

3.81

Bench. Sample Rate

7639

Bench. Data Rate

257Kbits/s

Original Time

3:28.791

Original Frame Rate

23.98

Original Sample Rate

48000

Original Data Rate

1.6Mbits/s

URL

\Storage Card\Videos\[DB]_Bleach_197_[6578B411.avi

Size

178595342

Platform

PocketPC

OS Version 5.02

OEM Info

Xda_Serra

Clock speed 533Mhz

Video output

DirectDraw 480x640 16bits

Slow Lookup

Video zoom

848x480 -> 364x640

Audio output

Wave Output 48000Hz 16Bits 2Ch

:D one has to try for the best :D

Still, for a new phone, this does seem extremely bad, and I have e-mailed HTC, but have not had a reply as yet... not expecting one, as the normal way for companies to behave these days is "Who cares, we got your money already."

My wife also has a Diamond, and she is very disappointed, as she also was expecting to be able to blow my old phone out of the water, not just about be able to keep up.

It will probably be fixed, but if it is, it will be done by one of the users here at Xda-developers, so i'll be hanging around waiting till then....
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] savageslave:
A new answer from HTC

I wrote an E-mail to HTC and Yesterday, I found an answer in my E-mail, this is what it said:

New Response From [ Mike (EU team) ]

Good Afternoon, I am sorry to hear of your issues. If you have HTC branded products (not network locked) then the Diamond will have an update available over the weekend. The Pro will have one shortly. When playing medai files please ensure that they are synced to the phone using windows media player, as this will convert the file to the supported format. If you copy full size movie files, then the device will try to p[lay and convert it to the screen resolution at the same time, which will cause the device to struggle. Try converting the files to the correct resolution before putting them on your device. Best Regards Mike

Here's Hoping
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Ouzo:
But what's the correct format, bit rate and resolution according to HTC I wonder? I'm guessing if it's VGA res and MP4, then it's no higher than 576kbps video and 96kbps audio for Microsoft's Mobile player.... any more than that and mine struggles big time!

On the other hand, I still think overall graphics performance is the biggest problem. Try this game, called Chain Reaction, it's great: http://www.xflib.net/index.php?PHPS...6d2a4b81519d1&action=games&name=ChainReaction This runs fine on my old Touch, but on my Pro it's like it's in slow motion.

Good on you for getting a response out of HTC ; )
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] szczeslaw:
I'm reading this thread and i can't believe it. Everyone is b*tching about TPs performance. Why?

I've had Magician, Charmer, Wizard and Toshiba G900, i've worked with all of the TyYN series. And none of these devices was faster/more responsive then my TP.

Ok, movie playback isn't perfect. But it wasn't in older devices also. In case on Toshiba G900 with quite powerful GoForce 5500 onboard, it was impossible to watch movie, until someone wrote modified version of TCPMP, supporting HW acceleration of the GF chip (that's why i hope HTC will not go for Tegra - nVidia support is... well there's no support at all).

When there will be CP version, supporting Qtv, i won't say a bad word about TPs performance. (Well, i don't play games ;) ).

TP is even more responsive, then modern cell phones (it doesn't matter if it's Nokia, SE or something else). So what You guys want?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
You guy with the weird nickname I cannot type, here is a fact of life: My 6 years old (is it 6? I don't remember any more) VGA FSX LOOX 720 is waaaaaaaaaaay better in movie playback.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
To watch videos and play games.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
Well, if you haven't seen this post, waiting for better AMD/ATI driver is now a fail since Qualcomm swallowed it all up.

I think it's now time instead to wait for another graphics hardware (industry leader PowerVR) to make it into a mainstream Windows Mobile device.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Maedhros:
Is it possible to purchase a driver from qualcomm and then "accidentally" release it on the internet?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] szczeslaw:
NLS, You are comparing PDA Phone to PDA. Phone will always be a compromise between performance, size and battery life.

Comparing to other PDA phones that i've had and worked with, TP is the most responsive and, overall, fastest device. At least for me. But like i've said - i do not play games.

BTW - it's my name, not nickname ;)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] JoeTheFro:
With Qualcomm buying the handheld part of AMD/ATI... I actually hope they use it to push out updated drivers. to new and possibly existing phones. Or they can be greedy, horde it all and let it go down with the ship.

I only say this since there have been images of the HTC 2009 product lineup and rumors of them switching to the nVidia chip...

If HTC bails on Qualcomm because of all our complaining, that might scare the hell outta them into buying up ATI to avoid an ATI - Qualcomm Licensing, and just let them do it inhouse and provide chips and drivers direct to HTC etc..

I may be wayyyyy off point with my lack of facts, but thats my guess...
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Doesn't work like that. When you buy a bunch of their chips like HTC, you pay a license fee for different parts of the functionality, and you get drivers supplied accordingly.

HTC save money by not licensing the use of certain bits of the hardware. The chips in the phones we have do a ton of stuff you will never see working :(
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] babijoee:
Its a shame really...

But like in previous post, i hope someone can figure out how to get those features, functions working for improved usage of TP
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] iRiKi:
sounds good, but prolly never gonna happen. shame

ahah owned :D
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NLS:
OK wow!

I mean wow. :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rcll:
Oh man this is so aggravating. If full drivers are eventually reverse engineered or something, will they be illegal for violation of license?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] savageslave:
Update? fix?

Hi,

Right now on the HTC site, there is a rom upgrade for the Diamond, has any one used it and does it address our woes as promised? The update says that it is for branded HTC Diamonds only, so us O2 users will have to wait :p

If any one out there has used it, please write in your results, that would at least make our wait bearable, (even longer for me as I have a Pro.. but my wife will smile.)

Maybe we need to get on to Qualcom, and beat them around the head for a bit.. that has a way of getting results.. ( or ask Obamma, cos he's magic at the moment.)