yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
If HD is not unique is this, should'nt the airline simply forbid the switching on completely rather than allowing the flight mode during take off and landing? Airline can't take the chance that some device are not completely stopping some of signal being transmitted IF it is true that this level of transmission affects take off and landing.

Unless I'm wrong, the impression I'm getting is that once the phone moves a few feet away from the pilot, then at flight mode, they will not be affected. Yes? No?
[Touch HD General] jetjockgordo:
From directly affecting the pilots communication headsets, you are probable correct, however the real issue is the cabin has many areas in close proximity to antennas on the top and bottom of the fuselage, cable runs under the cabin floor, and avionics equipment/computers.

Interesting report here:

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/3069

and from NASA

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20010066904_2001108092.pdf

It really seems that most likely a single cell phone left on may not cause trouble but the Airbus A380 holds over 500 passengers....what if one in five leave their cell phone radios on (including Bluetooth and WiFi transmitters) and are using 100 laptops, video games, noise canceling stereo headphones, etc. You get the idea, just read the first link above and you will understand.

Sorry to stray off topic a little here but I would really like to get more info from HD users if they think their phone/data transmitter is not turning off even though it looks like it is. I am trying to reliably reproduce the problem so I can find a remedy and not contend with annoying GSM clicks in my headset after we push from the gate and get scolded from my co-pilot that I forgot to turn off my phone (he/she can also hear the clicking through the intercom we use when that happens).

Regards,

Gordo
[Touch HD General] mallman:
have you guys tried to just turn off the radio manually in comm manager instead of using airplane mode? Just wondering if that works instead.
[Touch HD General] bclope:
For you that carry a GSM phone in the plane in case of a radio failure, beware that the GSM system was designed to allow communication in terrestrial vehicles, not in planes and it is affected by Doppler effect. If you are running faster than 200Km/h respect to the base station, the frequency tracking loop of the GSM cannot correct the Doppler offset, so you could not place a call to ground. With the airborne picocell it is different because it is not moving with respect to the passengers.

The bug you refer about the flight mode I think It's reallly a software bug. Switching off the radio chipset is very easy form a software point of view, all radio chips have registers that can be adressed by the processor to make them enter in power down or sleep conditions. (this is how the handset saves battery power). However, Windows Mobile is built on the premises that a IP data link is always available. This is a heritage from desktop computers. If your phone is configured to be always connected to the GPRS service (a G or 3G or H letter is present above the signal strength indicator), some applications which require "always on" feature like MSN, may try to connect to the data network "disregarding" the status of flight mode. You can try to open the task manager before setting the phone to flight mode and close all applications, to make sure you kill all processes that try to acces the network, not only the phone application, which is just one of them. In any case, a firmware update could fix this problem, I don't think they need to recall the devices.
[Touch HD General] mcbyte_it:
If the HD doesn't respect on/off status the flight mode o radio mode, then it is a problem not related only to flying.

already WM devices dont't support alarms when off, so i'll have to leave it on all night to make the alarm go on in the morning, but it the radio doesn't turn off i might get messages or calls during the night which i don't want. I was counting on setting Flight Mode during night the the thing is done. I WANT sometimes to have the gsm radio completely disabled....

[OT about flying rules]

my last flight 1 month ago, i wanted to listen to music during the trip, and on ground i enabled flight mode startup on my K800, but during the flight the hostess said i can't use my mobile even to listen to music even in flight mode, but then during landing, still before touch down a couple of mobiles of other passengers started ringing and nothing was done about it.

Me being polite to ask for permission to use flight mode no, while other with gsm all active during landing ok !!!!
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
But the HD apparently is unique in this - other phones have flight modes, but their's work.

That's the danger if HTC don't fix this bug, and make sure all their users apply the update - a few stray handsets with malfunctioning "flight modes" could well convince the FAA that they should completely ban all such devices, including the vast majority with flight modes that are perfectly safe.

If the flight mode worked then no, not even the pilot's own phone should affect him - but the point here is the HD doesn't have a reliable flight mode, only the appearance of one.
[Touch HD General] elmarko99:
They did a thing on Mythbusters on Discovery Channel proving that cell phones don't affect planes at all. I don't turn my electronic devices off any more. Should have seen me on my last flight from JFK to DUB, I was texting friends, using GPS to track my progress, wifi connected to my laptop... and we got there in one piece. lol
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Hmm. Well if Mythbusters said so, I'd definitely take their word over that of a commercial pilot..
[Touch HD General] elmarko99:
of course you would.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Boinng,

You are not the expert on this. The person who said it is not unique is a professional commercial pilot. If he says HD is not unique, then let's take it as true.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
He said it's "not unique with regard to possible interference", and of course it isn't, there are any number of possible sources for that. However, a phone in flight mode should never be one of them, and that's the point of this thread - on the HD, "flight mode" can mean the phone is still active and endangering the aircraft's systems.

If the airlines get wind that in some cases "flight mode" doesn't really mean "flight mode" and that radio activity can be going on regardless, then they'd be quite justified in banning the use of it altogether - which is bad news for anyone with any kind of smartphone.
[Touch HD General] Kael:
Well I must say that nowadays planes are way more protected than in past times.

Saw a (cute) girl phoning while flying next to Paris in a Fokker 70 (I was her neighbour). Well actually it was her mailbox phoning (you know stupid SFR calls you back or sends you sms UNTIL you phone back... hate it). We were definitely over 200km/h as not in an approach phase.

I mean, all the business guys (like sometimes me :D) have their laptops on, wifi on, isn't that way more waves emitted than phones?

Same for not using earphones during landing... Stupid thing again, come on you would clearly know if something is wrong!!! As for the guys sleeping, isn't that worse?
[Touch HD General] jehlinger:
I noticed this bug as well, just flew a roundtrip last week. I know it's more of a PITA, but just turn off the phone, bluetooth etc. with the individual buttons in the Comm Mgr and that seems to really turn off the radios.

my $.02
[Touch HD General] Noony:
Thanks for this. I did wonder if simply switching them all off would work. Not really that much of an issue is it!
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Sounds like a complete non-issue to me.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
That's certainly not what your expert is saying.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
:mad:

I said TO ME it is not an issue. The expert has already said that if you individually turn off the WIFI and Phone, there is no more interference. Even if there is still interference, I have the option of switching off the phone. So, why should this be an issue to me?

Look, I know we had major disagreement over the iPhone 3G signal problem. Let's just agree to disagree and not let it carry your emotion everywhere whenever you see my post, okay?

I know you felt angry that I had brought up the 3G signal problem of iPhone, but really you have no need to defend it like a person you love and bear grudges against me for the rest of your life. Looks to me like your intention is just to stick around and discredit HD in anyway you can so that your iPhone looks good.

To everyone else, sorry for the off topic comment, but I'm just annoyed.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Concerning the Apple issue I fully agreed with you and Boinng really appeared to ignore all facts or proofs only to defend his beloved toy.

HOWEVER on this issue I am really sorry but I would have to agree with him. Switching a phone into flight mode means it should turn off all external communication. The HD appears not to do so and I would call this an actual bug.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
This thread isn't about the iPhone or its 3G, we've had that discussion and it's completely irrelevant here, as you know.

I have an interest in this as aviation is an interest of mine, and I know - as the experts in this thread are also telling you - that the RF emissions from phones and other gadgets are a serious issue. Even if you make a personal judgement that you and your single handset aren't going to upset any avionics, and realistically they're probably not, there's still the probability that if everyone takes that view, problems will occur. Crucially, the FAA and the airlines have a duty to consider that "worst case" scenario, and act accordingly - the safety of the aircraft must always take priority over any other consideration.

At the moment, many airlines will allow the use of smartphones and similar gadgets with "flight mode" turned on, on the understanding that "flight mode" means there are no GSM or other radio emissions. The "flight mode" setting is something that most airline stewards will be able to easily check and verify if need be, so the FAA can be reasonably confident that any risk is minimised.

Now what happens if that confidence in "flight mode" is removed? What happens when the FAA become aware that on certain phones (like the Touch HD for example) manufacturers aren't testing their flight modes properly, and allowing bugs through which mean the "flight mode" indication is meaningless? In the FAA's position, what would you do? Turn a blind eye? Bear in mind for a moment that the FAA's focus is not on protecting your right to use your "beloved" HD, or indeed any gadget, but preventing any possibility of accident.

There's a real risk that if manufacturers trivialise issues like this, don't test to see if flight mode really works, and don't treat any bugs in this area as a matter of urgency, the FAA, airlines and other regulators around the world will simply ban ALL such devices, and flight mode on all our phones will become worthless, whether they actually work or not.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
No you need not switch off the phone. A few posts back, one of the pilots has tested that if go to the comm manager and off the phone, bluetooth, individually (rather than on the flight), you basically achieve the same effect as the flight mode.

I accept that a firmware update to made flight mode do that completely is needed, but it is not in my view an issue serious enough to warrant a recall.

There are other phones out there which also still emits transmission when on flight mode.

Looks to be that since nobody could ensure that all new cell phone 100% stop transmitting such signal on flight mode, it is wise for airline to ensure that no flight mode is allowed during take off and landing. This to be is the only 100% safe way. We might be able to get HTC to correct our phone, but who can guarantee that other phones do not have this problem?

I do not believe that anyone of us is so important that we cannot afford to be without phone communication during take off and landing. Sorry, I just don't.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
And you expect a busy and not necessarily techie airline steward to wait while you explain all that to them, and verify the phone is really off (but flight mode isn't on)?

Are you going to explain why you aren't just using flight mode?
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Boinng,

Learn to be reasonable before engaging in further debate. I had said you were an impossible person to reason with. You just prove that over and over again.

I shall not waste further time arguing with you.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
During take off and landing. You can use electronic devices during the cruise and thats where we get to the point.

Thats not the same.

If flight mode does not act as intended it is obviously a bug.

I am sorry but who asked for a recall? It is a bug however and should be fixed. Unfortunately it seems to show - along with the other issues like paint, flickering - that HTC's QA does not seem to work as well as they possibly did before.

Its offtopic here, but personally I am a bit disappointed reading all those stories as I really wanted to get an HD.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Okay.

This isn't the place for any of this, but I'd really advise you to re-read this thread and perhaps reconsider your approach. It's not me that's getting emotional, raising prior grievances, or turning any of this into a personal issue.
[Touch HD General] Noony:
I'm very happy with my HD. It took a very long time to setup and it definitely needs some tweaks to get the best out of it, and it takes a while to get used to the lack of buttons. It's often a case of finding what works for you (especially software wise). It's normal that people tell you more about problems and faults and forget to talk about the 'good' stuff.

Once again, this flight mode issue is a very minor issue TO ME. I'll simply turn off the phone/bluetooth/wifi it takes seconds and problem solved. It's only a phone and, in my opinion, this is a small issue with very simple fix!
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Sorry but you're misundertanding this. The issue isn't during takeoff and landing - all phones and gadgets should be completely OFF during takeoff or landing, regardless of any flight mode. The issue is during the rest of the flight, when "flight mode" is usually permitted (but NOT full use of the phone).
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Let's just go back to the topic for this thread and just do a summary:

- One of the pilots has identified an issue with the flight mode in that it does not completely turn off the GSM signal.

- It was mentioned that HD is not unique in having this problem.

- It was tested that if you switched off the telephone and bluetooth individually within the communication manager, it WILL stop the transmission, while allowing the use of the other part of the device.

That being the case, I do not have an issue with it.

You may have your own conclusion. As for other problems such as chipped paint, etc, there are threads for those already so it is not necessary to discuss it here.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Yes.

I think he was referring as to creating interferences when turned on. Not that other phones do not handle flight mode properly too.

Sorry, but this is about a not working flight mode, not about workarounds.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Then during the flight go to the comm mangaer and individually turn off the phone and bluetooth, and switch off the phone during take off and landing.

This is for me not a problem. If it is a serious problem for you, don't buy this phone.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
The steward will want to see "flight mode" on the screen, or they'll want you turn the device off. They haven't the time or inclination to debate the relative merits of your comm manager approach.

As I've already explained, I don't need to go near this phone for it to become a problem for me, when airlines are forced to ban the use of all PEDs during flight. When HTC devalue "flight mode" they create a problem for all of us.
[Touch HD General] pzucchel:
The conclusion is manifestly false. I use the GSM while flying non-commercial airplanes above 200 km/h and it definitely works. It is true that the speed RELATIVE to the station is less than 200 km/h - so maybe the stated principle is not incompatible
[Touch HD General] jehlinger:
I've ONLY had one flight attendent ever ask if my phone was off, I showed her comm-manager that the phone portion was off, and she said "fine".

To say that that they have to see "flight mode" is just stupid. To say that this will cause airlines to permanently ban PDA's is just.....well......bonkers.

I've had other WM phones where flight-mode did not work properly, again no big deal, just switch off radios individually. Usually this bug is fixed with subsequent radio updates.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
I'm saying that most attendants will expect to see "flight mode" - from their point of view, having to deal with hundreds of passengers carrying hundreds of different phones, "flight mode" is a common feature that most attendants will understand at a glance (which is all the time some will have). You found one with the patience to understand the comm manager on your phone - that's great for you, but it's not something that everyone can rely on.

No, it's a genuine risk if it becomes apparent to the airlines and regulators that "flight mode" isn't to be trusted, because x number of phones don't implement it properly. They can't take the risk that someday, all those "safe" phones in flight mode could actually be polling the networks regardless.

If they know that "flight mode" can sometimes be meaningless due to sloppy programming, how can they (or you) have any more faith in the "phone off" setting in the comm manager?
[Touch HD General] jehlinger:
nevermind, ur hopeless
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Or as others might say, "right".
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Hi all the pilots and fliers,

Have you tried using the following comm manager to see if the flight mode button works as in being capable of completely shut off the phone signal?

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=310650
[Touch HD General] bclope:
The maximum offset on the GSM900 standard is 300Hz, this means a speed shift of 200Km/h in a 900MHz carrier. As you say, your relative speed also depends on the altitude. If you were running on the land (as trains and cars do) with a base station in the line of shight, this would be the limit however.
[Touch HD General] jetjockgordo:
Followup

Well, after another trip with the HD (which I love!) I think I may have been able to reproduce the issue 90% of the time. My previous phone was the HTC Universal (JasJar) and after putting it in flight mode (either through the Comm Manager or PhoneAlarm) I could immediately hit the power button and put the unit to sleep. With the HD I can't click on anything or do anything for at least 15-20 seconds after selecting either Phone Off or Flight Mode (from hang-up long press Quick List menu or Comm Manager) otherwise I "interrupt" the shutdown process even though everything looks like the radio (phone) is off. I was even able to place a call with an "X" in the signal strength icon. I tried this several times and I have to, for sure, wait for the "please wait" spinney thing (hourglass on old versions of Windows) to go away, then I can hit the power button or do something else without risking interrupting the shutdown process.

I guess my only question for HTC is can they have it that the UI checks the status of the radio after a shutdown request? Apparently the UI sends the shutdown request but after that doesn't know if it actually happened.

The UI not giving accurate radio status is not a great idea for any environment that needs to have cell phones turned off.

Thanks for everyone's input and if you notice the same problem please PM me! I might go to our union Air Safety Committee with some of this info since they are keeping a close eye on Portable Electronic Devices and possible inflight anomalies. I can tell you that, here in the USA, there is a rapidly growing concern by pilots unions, NASA and the FAA about the massive proliferation of electronic devices being used on commercial aircraft and that, one day, the right "cocktail" of RF interference on a flight could generate a dangerous senario. I encourage everyone to not feel inconvenienced when asked to comply with their (Flight Attendants) request to turn off electronic equipment, but rather, feel more reassured that we are trying to make the flight as safe as possible for you! Being a techo-geek, I would love to be the first to minimize the possible effect of my cell phone on the safety of the flight, but I don't, as that would not be consistent with my obligation as Captain to provide a safe journey.

Regards,

Gordo
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Good work.

I had sent an email to HTC highlighting this problem for their attention.

Jetcockgordo, just to clarify, if we wait for say 20 seconds after pressing the Flight Mode, will it then definitely shut down the signal? Not that it is an acceptable long term solution for unaware passenger, but I would like to know that at least I know of a procedure to ensure safe shutdown.

Is trying to make a call the way to test if the phone signal is completely down?

Thanks.
[Touch HD General] jetjockgordo:
Yes, it seems that waiting a good 20 seconds (when the spinney "busy" thing goes away) before touching anything on the screen or the power button is the best way to make sure the radio (and BT, WiFi) are truly off. I did appear that the radio shutdown could be easily interrupted with the appearance that the cell is off. Trying to make a call would be the best backup to make sure because I was able to place a call several times after "interrupting" the cell power-down.

Regards,

Gordo
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Thank you Gordo for the clear explanation. The procedure seems simple enough. Not a problem for me at all.
[Touch HD General] :
Ok debates aside. Here are some test results. Asian Blackstone.

I used (didn't know a better method)

1.An old speaker as Microphone (less capturing of ambient Noise) to capture the RF as audible signals and

2. recorded on Pc with an audio editor (Goldwave/Sound Forge), amplified the sound to just enough to hear(visualize on graph) the ticks.

3. Switched the various modes to toggle HD "phone".

3/10 and 2/10 failure to switch off the radio by "Flight Mode". 1/10 (2/10*) after 1 minute waiting!. This never switched off at 5 min too, though the Taskbar shows otherwise. (Too bad I didn't test for an incoming call).

(mostly the WAIT animation doesn't play when it fails). I was careful not to disturb the screen after clicking.

*Ticks fainter..

Option Turn off Cellular Radio - 1/10 failure at 1min(Though Task bar = Radio off!). ticks get fainter - what the hell is this?? I took away the HD - ticks disappeared. Put back - Ticks back.. Powered off completely - Ticks gone.

NO.. no wifi or Bluetooth were on. Something weird here.

Anyway I think all regions are affected. Hopefully HTC fixes this.
[Touch HD General] brusko1972:
So is this problem related to radio versions? what radio versions do you guys have. I would like my flight mode to work as should be.
[Touch HD General] simranjits:
If this is the case , shouldn't you be taken to task for not switching off your phone or least getting a phone that can be switched off.