yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] iRiKi:
i'm still hoping for someone to hack the libgles_cm.dll and come up with the libgles_cl.dll for OpenGL|ES CL support :D

about the poor 2D performance, my guess it's due to the qualcomm very poor multitasking.

i mean my Diamond has

the same score

on GLBench 2.0 (not to be confused with GL Benchmark) as the Axims, but Quake 3 run much more poorly.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Not sure about that. The G1 has the same CPU (7201 @ 528Mhz) and less Ram (192mb vs 256mb), but 2d tasks are very fast, even when multitasking, compared to the Touch Pro.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rcll:
Man it's frustrating to see this same hardware perform properly in other devices.

I don't even care about quake, I just want 2D/3D UI to work faster than it does, knowing that it can.

What is really keeping HTC from fixing this issue? They don't want to pay licensing?

If we get documentation from HTC does it become doable by third party? What would keep them from releasing that?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Wishmaster89:
It is because qualcomm doesn't use hardware FPU it is done by software and FPU is a must for Q3 to run properly.

The first chip that will have hardware FPU will be snapdragon. This is why qualcomm chips seems to suck. If the FPU is needed performance drops but if it doesn't use it then the performance is quite good cause the integer performance is even better than on the iPhone.

If you wan't to check it by yourself go to glbenchmark and you will see what I mean.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
Yup, there are plenty of FPU-less devices in there that kick the crap out of HTC/Qualcomm. FPU is not a must, just a nicety since most of the math could be converted into fixed-point on the CPU.

Even the Toshiba and LG phones using the same CPU have better benchmarks. Even the Omnia without FPU kicks the crap out of HTC/Qualcomm in multimedia.

Your point?

There's no reason to continuing wishing on Q, nor HTC/Q, which have an established rep of under delivering and under performing. It's the same as buying Microsoft or GM and hoping they'll get better.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] nuke1:
Some sort of movement, or temporal solution can come about twice as quickly if the minds on this thread tag along with the minds on the Blackstone thread (they have the same problem).

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=442712
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] JoeTheFro:
Looking over at the Bell Moble (Canada Provider) and this video of the interface, it does seem to have more going on than the basic TouchFlo... could that ROM possibly have some performance tweak, or even a better 2D driver than the one packaged from other sources....

Just a guess, but from what i have been reading on this thread is that the chipset can handle all sorts of goodies, but without proper licensing, they are unused....

Could a provider flip the bill to have access to those features since HTC doesnt do it out of the factory?

http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=1860
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
If it's the PointUI team, then it's most likely GAPI and PocketHAL -- well-established to have very nice and fast CPU-based GUIs.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Wishmaster89:
Show me those benchmarks to prove your point cause for now all devices running 7201 that I have seen have similar results and as for omnia. Thanks to the xscale architecture it has better results due to SIMD so it is pointless to compare them(its like comparing ARMv6 with ARMv7). It is not HTC's fault that qualcomms chip is not the greatest. But from price POV it it the best choice(that Is why there are so many devices on the market based on it). As I already said earlier snapdragon should be the chip that fullfils most of peoples demands so you have to face it that FPU is very important or at least good software FP(just like in omnia). You won't get better results from ATI imageon than you have now. No matter how hard you try.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] mnasr87:
I'm calling for the assistance of anyone knowledgeable in registry hacks. I was looking through the entire registry and came across a key that I thought may prove rather useful to a reg hacker. [HKLM->System->State->Phone] and the DWORD to look for is Signal Strength and Signal Strength Raw. I tried changing the value of Signal Strength from 10 to 500 and didn't notice a change. I own the XV6850, verizon's touch pro, and was wondering if it would maybe have an effect if I changed the values and then dialed *228 opt.2 to update roaming list? would someone look into this and see if this might be useful?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
I've put up benchmarks many times in many threads. Okay, it is established that MSM7200 and MSM7201 are the exact same cpu except -A means 65nm instead of 90nm, and xx01 means no Broadcom infringing tech, but still same cpu.

Okay, so let's start with bad HTC drivers:

Between devices of same rez HTC vs others where I verified the DDI + libgles is different from the "stock" HTC implementation:

Toshiba G810 vs LG KS20 vs Kaiser vs Polaris

Same 400MHz cpu and OS so comparing Float, Integer, Pro ES and HD ES, it is seen that KS20/Kaiser/Cruise are same (~5%) because same drivers. Toshiba isn't same driver and you can see superior HD ES -- 30% better than Kaiser, and ~5% better Pro ES.

Conclusion, HTC's drivers are inferior.

-----

Even none of the faster 528MHz 7201s can do any better in either HD nor Pro (even taking increased resolution and cpu-speed into account). Note the Pro ES is more heavily cpu influenced due to lighting and other effects which bears out in the Lights (ambient, omni) numbers:

G810 vs Touch Pro vs Axim vs Touch HD

It can be seen Toshiba is still superior, and even the ancient Axim is superior at the same resolution. Btw, I benched the LG Incite (running 528MHz 7201) at: GLBenchmark Pro ES 1.0 : 108 Frames. Something is up with HTC's drivers.

Now let's compare FPU-less devices in Pro ES where the cpu matters more than the gpu:

O2 XDA Flame (PXA270 + GoForce): HD: 1069, Pro: 176; still better than Raphael/Blackstone at same res and we know the OS isn't xscale optimized

iMate Ultimate 6150 (PXA270 + GoForce): HD 1074; Pro: 160; and we know the OS isn't xscale optimized

Nokia 5500 (OMAP 1710): HD: 232, Pro: 125; still better than HTC/Qualcomm for cpu-based Pro test

Conclusion, others have better drivers.

-----

Btw, the Omnia uses PXA320 and all XScale is ARMv5TE so I think it's a fair comparison. Also, just because it has XScale simd extensions (which are only integer MMX and should have some parity with ARM DSP extensions) doesn't explain why the same generation 2005 "QTV" multimedia is 4x slower unless you're suggesting that QTV was very over-hyped. The current poor multimedia performance has been well-covered already.

Okay, how about you put up real numbers of how magical Snapdragon will really improve things (besides Q market-speak), and if it'll actually hit any delivering devices. As of now, it's still late 2009 for it even hit any devices, and at a timeline where proven Samsung and PowerVR is going to deliver quite a bit new products on their side.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Good answer. It's great when someone takes the time to show they are talking from experience.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] o2neouzr:
ok,so now we have a 3d driver accessing the gpu. the only problem now is that we dont have a 2d hardware driver. i bet if there was a 2d hardware driver,most of the complaining about these devices would disappear. the ui would be very responsive and video playback would be great.

i took a look at the source of q3ce,and i must say,im now not surprised at all that it is running slow. first of all,the opengl code is being converted to opengl es by a wrapper. this adds alot of overhead. also since there is no fpu,if the math code was converted to fixed point,we would get a great boost too. If we applied ARM cpu optimizations for this type of ARM cpu,we would also get performance increases. Unfortunately what i think needs to be done to get great performance from this gpu, is 3d games must be written completely for this type of device.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Wishmaster89:
G810 vs Touch Pro vs Axim vs Touch HD I think this is what you wanted to show. Remember that axim uses 2700G which is superior to qualcomms ATI Imageon and it only surpasses it in Pro ES and maybe few other but in all the rest Touch Pro is slightly better at the same resolution.

Xscale's simd is better than basic(bad?) software implementation cause that is what qualcomm uses on their chips to simulate FPU and all those tests showing how PXA'a are better show exactly what I mean't. Even without hardware support it is better in some aspects 02 XDA Flame vs Axim vs Touch Pro

Where did you get you numbers about QTv being 4x slower? Just because 3rd party programs arent taking advantage of it it doesn't mean it is inferior. Even on the review of X1 from phone area which you post a link to they are saying that they could easily play h.264 at 1500kbps with 720x306. I think it overthrows your argument. Wait for program that will use QTv to its fullest than say that it is bad or not. But I have to agree that Qualcomm should *open* their licenses so they could be easily ported in to programs that could take advantage of it.

And about snapdragon. I'm not basing my informations on press releases or any qualcomm talk. There is this nice forum on the internet where you could really learn a thing or two about chips that are coming soon. From there I know that snapdragon graphic will be 6-wide processor running at 133MHz and the *raw* texturing filtrate should be about half of what tegra offers. So it is very competitive for tegra and even surpasses it thanks to custom Scorpion processor. If you want to know more go check beyond3d.com.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
You didn't understand my link. I proved that HTC/Qualcomm has inferior drivers already at QVGA, then went on to show how bad it was even with "official" drivers that only ran in VGA, and didn't scale as 1/2 or 1/4 of the numbers. What did you prove?

And so you confirmed my point that the supposedly ancient PXAs are superior to modern "ARMv6" Qualcomms especially since Q can't even come up with decent coding.

Did you even look at the SPB Benchmark graphics index on that link, or the first post of this thread? 4x slower.

You claim you're on that forum, and suggest you're good buddies with Arun, yet you seem to not notice my presence there. Your "good buddy" Arun himself even states that Qualcomm's IP is inferior to upcoming IP from others and it's just a matter to time.

So, therefore HTC (bad drivers) + Qualcomm (underperforming) = something to continue to avoid until they prove they got something better than the previous generation (2003). Encouraging people to hold their breaths for these two is currently a loosing proposition. It's really tragic considering that the Q cpu is quite superior in integer, and the ATI is supposed to quite good, yet the combination is something to be desired.

So you got numbers to back up your points about Snapdragon being superior yet? I continue to assert paper-specs is not production specs. We're already done with that with MSM720x.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] k9tim:
nushrike-

You're wasting your time with Wishmaster.....

CoreCodec forums.... all I'm gonna say.

cheers
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] 83jb:
So is it just bad drivers that are the only thing holding back the TP? Or is it possible that it is a permanent problem like the hardware? The reason I ask is because I just purchased this phone and I may consider returning it in my 30 period if it is a permanent hardware issue preventing the TP performing to it's true potential, however if it is a driver related issue, that may be fixed somewhere down the road, I will hang on to it, in hopes that the issue will be resolved.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NewSensei:
I installed this driver and the hologram , how do I say it? Does not work, it is jittery at best, and I have to sling the phone to standing position for it to finally register, but then it just goes to the furthest position after thinking about it for a few seconds. I am sad, I wish they would resolve this. I sent an email requesting proper driver support directly. I have no doubt I will be ignored :>(
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NewSensei:
According to all the documentation on the Touch Pro's Proc it should be able to handle things quite well. So I am of the opinion it is a software issue. It is very frustrating, but the phone shines in a lot of ways and I find it quite awesome regardless.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rcll:
Even with the most current(as of today) best performing and leanest ROM, my Touch Pro(ATT Fuze) is ridiculously underperforming my friends iPhone in simple basic GUI responsiveness.

I don't even care about playing Quake on my 2.8inch screen, but I do want my basic interface to be reasonably responsive, if not fast... but definitely not laggy, which my device happens to be unfortunately.

I really want to like this HTC device, it has all the hardware I want out of a top-end PPC phone as of now(hardware QWERTY slider, VGA screen)... it just performs far below what I was expecting.

What did HTC screw up to get such poor performance out of a 528MHz CPU...

I had a Pentium 3 500MHz desktop with an nVidia TNT2u that loaded webpages in a snap, and multitasked just fine.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rcll:
I get 25FPS on hologram with the ATI driver, sometimes 16FPS and sometimes 50FPS. It always runs very smoothly but sometimes I notice "tearing".
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
The performance should be much better, but not equivalent to a 500mhz desktop. There's a bit more to it than just CPU clock speed, as I'm sure you're aware.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Wishmaster89:
And don't you know that Coreplayer doesn't fully support qualcomm QTv only overlay?? We haven't seen what coreplayer can do with proper use of QTv although in that phonescoop x1 review they said that the video performance was good. When they will release version that will offer full hardware support and not only overlay then compare. If then it will be 4x slower I will say that you were right. Till then I'll try not to judge it.

And as for beyond3D.com

You're right I didn't see you there. Maybe because the only posts you did there were about qualcomm/HTC and how bad they are and their devices underpowered.

And I never said anything about being good friends with Arun. I'm just asking questions and he is answering them. Simple.

I never said that It will be holy grail for mobile CPU's but it will be better than what we have now.

And what's that supposed to mean?

If your suggesting that I'm blindly defending them or their actions. You're wrong! The only thing I'm doing is being objective. I'm not bashing them for things that are out of their hands(the whole QTv support case). Most of the people bashing them don't know a thing about programming and yet they try to teach them how to do their job. I know how hard it is to write a program that is so complex and yet efficient.

FWIW it seems that people here are no longer objective so for me this discussion is over. For future try to be more objective and fair(check all aspects before judging) when you asses something.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] r4ster:
Hi I am new to this forum.

I did my homework browsing through various threads about diamond/touch pro/hd video performance, but still I came to point where I started.

My question is, Is there anything to do apart from waiting for HTCs drivers, to get its full video pontential to use ?

Does this Polaris 3D Driver have some influence on touch pro ?

If someone could point me out a direction to get better performance on my htc touch pro, I would be grateful.

Thanks in advance, r4ster.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] gobmonster:
It hard to appreciate objectivity when there is no solution to the problem in sight. It starts to come off as excuses.

I for one appreciate your objectivity, things like this tend to turn into a witch hunt very fast (htc class suit, it went no where). Yeah, this device is underperforming, but my limited (very limited) programming knowledge knows that these programs that we are using to test out the performance of our device were not design to take full advantage of it, whether by drivers or processor calls (arm11 vs arm9). Either way it goes, we need some optimized programs!

I hope coreplayer can give us the solution, and im sure that what ever magical driver they get will be dissected by the xda community in no time!

(... if there is such driver)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Wishmaster89:
The thing is that people want great things but sometimes they dont want to pay for them. Qualcomm is best choice from price POV. I agree that omnia has better processor but at a price of lower ram, low resolution screen(maybe larger but still TD has a better one). If HTC would choose to use marvell pxa310 and 192mb of ram and include TV-out it would cost more and then people would say that it is overpriced. But when they decide to release it with not the greatest processor say that it is too weak and not worth the money spent on it. It's like with x7510. I think that it was a great device. It had almost everything you could want but the price was a killer.

Optimizations is one thing but what we need is better drivers in WM itself. If they were unified so they could work on every hardware the difference wouldn't be as substantial as it is now. This way it would be easier for manufacturers to make good products cause the time and cost of development would be smaller. But that is only my opinion. I can be wrong.

I agree that qualcomm has to change their policy about being closed and not allowing developers to access their technology(which I think with time will happen cause the market will make them do it). And about Coreplayer using qualcomms hardware it is just a matter of time. I think no longer than 6 months. Maybe at CES or MWC we'll get something from CC. But we'll see.

And I'm glad that there are still people here that are thinking clearly.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
I don't see the Japanese Omnia having issues scaling to a much larger resolution and screen size. Walks all over over the Touch HD and Xperia:

http://www.google.com/search?q=soft...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

nor even this Korean one:

http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=1562&view=1

Verizon month-to-month price of $559.99 USD for Omnia (with tv-out) is pretty comparable with a Touch Pro, and it even shockingly uses Q's gpsOne. 128MB ram has been demonstrated plenty for even running TF3D on Kaiser. And this is already assuming that TF3D is a lightweight, optimized app when it's not. So 128MB is not enough for a device now?

Where does your "it would be expensive for HTC" numbers come from unless you're suggesting that it's only HTC that can't make it cheap enough? The aforementioned xscale iMate Ultimates aren't any more expensive than equivalent HTC devices either.

I am mystified as to how these tangential strawman points (price/ram/screen res), somehow make the Omnia, or any device, inferior, or relate even to the original topic of poor performance on the Touch Pro and your first point of how Snapdragon will be the pill that solves the poor drivers, inept HTC, and over-hyped Qualcomm?

Do you have any other QTV numbers from some real app that demonstrates it could be better than what CorePlayer and others have been able to squeeze out of it? You plan on expounding how overlay is somehow the inferior version of QTV instead of what "could have been tech" used, and this somehow explains the magnitudes slower multimedia speeds?

I've showed my numbers as asked, how about you?

It would help if you made clear, thoughtful, well-substantiated arguments based on current facts, and not wishful thinking with future specs, future announcements, and a lot of hand-waving.

As you askedI've showed my numbers I think my point still stands to avoid all HTC/Qualcomm devices in its current state (unless it was the most capable device after all the minuses) until either prove they can deliver more than paper-specs and shiny reviews.

gobmonster: HTC-CA resulted in actual drivers, and egging HTC into giving the foundations for it. That is nowhere?

r4ster: no, we (as the team I'm on) cannot make the Touch Pro drivers any better currently. The Polaris driver (technically the HTC-CA driver since it's the same code) exploited a screen-refresh trick in the Kaiser/Polaris/Nike driver that isn't present on the Diamond/Raphael/etc, nor can we somehow port it over, yet.

83jb: what you see right now is pretty much the most of what you'll ever see out of the Touch Pro, Windows Mobile, and HTC. After all, the Diamond-based hardware design itself is 6 months old now and HTC historically doesn't make significant updates to a released device this far down the road.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] k9tim:
Wishmaster- THIS is exactly what I meant. I only needed someone else to say it. just like on the CoreCodec forums. You were all about what is coming with 1.30 or 2.0 when nothing was disclosed, nothing promised- yet people buying new devices continue to buy CP only to be bummed out.

You love to "school" people on what will be coming in the future.

How about you concentrate on using your vast knowledge on what we have in our hands, or how we can improve the devices since companies like HTC aren't all that interested?

PS> CP1.30 did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for playback value for those of us with HTC devices. Are you ready to fly the fanboy flag for 2.0? Are you sure it's going to deliver?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] r4ster:
So as I understand, every device that has this qualcomm processor, lacks of proper video drivers ?

Oh, and thanks for the response.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
All the HTC QVGA devices with Qualcomm processor do not have official drivers.

All the HTC VGA devices have drivers (including Xperia, Touch HD), but they're less than half as fast as QVGA (for raw benchmarks), and not as fast as Xscale/Omap alternatives.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] r4ster:
So that means, the drivers are not optimised ?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] ibriggsy:
just a quick question as I was reading this (sorry for the slightly off topic, I was reading this whilst trying to decide between xperia and raphael)

From what I have read on this post, the xperia doesn't suffer from this slow (or sub-optimal) graphical problem where the raphael does? Is it bad enough to warrant going for a xperia over a raphael if I want to view media from time to time?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
They're both the same with the same issues since it's the same cpu/gpu and made by HTC.

r4ster: Means either drivers are still not optimized, or the devices are currently maxed out.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] ibriggsy:
I was under the impression they were a slightly different chipset:

Qualcomm MSM7201 (X1) vs QualComm MSM7201A?

but from what you said I take it that actually the problem is still in both so cheers for that, you have made my mind up! Bring on the touch pro.

Ian
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
It's 7200A vs 7201A.

-A means 65nm instead of 90nm

xx01 just means without Broadcom patent-infringing tech

So, therefore same chip to apps and use.

I too wanted an Xperia because it was better body build, even knowing it's same guts inside (except) screen, but impossible find one @ a USA SonyStyle (due to double-blown launch), and I'm not paying more to importers. Whatever you're happier with in terms of actual included customizations. :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] rcll:
Yea I was also looking at the X1, the slight keyboard tilt in landscape is nice. But the phone is scarce and lots more expensive than a Raphael. If an American carrier picked it up and subsidized it's cost like Sprint/ATT/VZW did with the Raphael it would probably sell well here. The extra .2 inches of screen doesn't make such a difference for me.

How does the X1 perform in graphics compared to the Raphael?

Is there any use in trying a class action type project for the Raphael? What could we hope to get out of HTC?