yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] phnikola:
Just my 2 cents after using TP for 3 days (after using Trinity for 15 months). Yes - its a really nice display, and thats it.

1. Start: To increase phone responsiveness I cooked ROM without every single HTC OEM package that could slow it down - including TF3D, HTC Task Manager (put WKTask instead - lightweight and fast), OEM dialer etc. Phone is slow and that is fact. Even opening WM default phone dialer - on my Trinity (custom ROM) is way faster.

2. Multitask: TP can nicely handle multitask objectives (ie. music + browsing +...) due to sufficient quantity of RAM.

3. Phone dialing: When it comes to business use - using phone when on the move - WM phone without jog dial or (well-built) D-pad is nonsense (in case you have 300+ contacts you cannot assign them ALL to all-mighty-scrolling-TF3D contacts tab). Ofcourse - you can use GScroll - which is very useful piece of software - but it will also register any tap to capacitive area with that boring pop-outs (Ha! you touched Home - and guess what - its not programmed to do anything).

3. Gaming: - again, lack of WELL-BUILT D-PAD is insane. Gaming performance? Tried PicoDrive and FinalBurn. Trinity handles them equally well. Additionaly - Trinity can be overclocked to some 440 MHz (using Pocket HackMaster) - when it really jumps over TP (in FinalBurn performance).

4. Oh, and one more thing - claimed 2.8 inch screen on TP should be (at least) the same dimensions as (also claimed) 2.8 QVGA screen on Trinity. Well it's not - its smaller (approximately 1mm in height and 1mm in width).

I can only say that right now I regret that I believed all the hype about speed and performances of Pro - sold it in 4 days with no regret at all - and moved back to reliable Trinity. I really regret that HTC used their initial user oriented approach - to turn it to cut-production-costs-make-more-money approach.

Uhhh, I needed this!
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] StevePritchard:
I think if you assign the null entry for the buttons you don't use (i.e. set the shortcut to be "::"), then you won't get the popups.

Cheers,

Steve.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] volky2wagon:
the truth about Q's MSM7201A

The QMSM7201A processor is fully capable of running apps games etc... If you do a little in depth search on AMD Imageon 2300 and find the GPU's texture output etc.. You will find it to be right around the same output as seen on GLbenchmark.com for HTC Touch Pro.. I spent 3 hours trying to figure it out when I had a T-Mobile G1. :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] radosi:
Hi all,

Today I have HTC touch pro and at first I'm not satisfied. My old TyTN II become very fast after spend some months on it choosing the best firmware and ideal instalation. With core player and my favourite video file TytN made 220% and now Fuze only 147%. Otherwise I noticed that the lag that been present when you touch the display in TyTN is missing in Fuze. Great for this, now the touch.dll library is made perfect i hope.

Now I search for good 6.5 version to try the power of new Fuze and I home I'll see it.

Can you give me some good advises what kind of rom can I try for better performance.

Post of the phnikola scared me, the same situation like MSM7200 with the new MSM7201A ? If I after 2 months of waiting have another slow device like htc TyTN II I'll regret for this.

Why HTC doesn't fix the terrible problems on their products :( I loved the hardware, the display and keyboard. Is the Android is the only faster choice?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] SweJap:
Can someone recommend me a ROM that performs fast and stable with HTC Touch Pro?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Torakiki83:
About the ram cut thing, i bought last november a HTC Touch PRO GSM Branded in Italy where i live with H3G. Well, i noticed today that i've got 192mb of RAM only, even though on the website it says 288mb. That's really something i should go to court for. It's not the way to treat clients.

Does anyone know if the limitation can be unblocked or it is just about the hardware that's not the same?

Thanks
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
Some amount of RAM is used by the crappy GPU ..
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] clickclickpc:
Try RomRom. They are light and have lots of RAM leftover.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] mrocdb:
zildjian

If not for xda developers, I wouldn't have an updates on my HTC Touch Pro. I've been expecting HTC to come up with updates and ROM to further improve the performance of this phone. HTC has poor support for their Touch Pro and they keep on promoting the Touch Pro2 without giving importance to the customers who bought the first edition of Touch Pro.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jul644:
.

dont know what any one is saying here i use just energy roms and there perfect sense 2.1 btw (the one thats made for the touch pro)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] xawen:
Drivers pulled from Diamond

I just saw this post over at Fuzemobility. I'm at work, so I can't try this until later tonight...but am I reading this right?

It looks like someone pulled the 3d video drivers from the diamond ROM (I didn't know the diamond had 3d accel while the TP didn't) and got them working on the TP. People are reporting much better performance in at least the VR Hologram app. I'm assuming this would benefit any other 3d based apps as well.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
It may be true for some TP's, but not for all.

For mine the hologram performance was never an issue. I don't know if I got 25 fps, but it was a lot closer to 25 fps than to 0.14 fps.

However, it's worth a shot, so I will do some tests with this too to see what happens.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
Where exactly?

@missingnoo thank you! I've emailed 2 sites about this, let's see if they are with us.

@xawen I'm using it on touch pro since that guy posted the cab in vr hologram topic. So, the videos were made with that driver. As you can see, performance is extremely poor. If it's a diamond or a touch pro.. it's the same.

Just the idea that there are devices from year 2004-2005 that outperforms touch pro/diamond shocks me..

For all, we must spread the news at a higher level. The more complains, the better. If we shut up, htc will think that we are satisfied with touch pro performance or think that we just don't care about it, so why they should care? ..

Keep coming with comparison & examples, benchmark data - this will help to evaluate more the performance of touch pro, especially in graphics part.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Sergio PC:
Hello from Diamond turf here.

So you guys are saying that the graphics capability on the Diamond are better of?:confused:

Thats weird!

I agree with you guys that for a 528mgz this thing should fly.

We should all unite and take it up to the man:D.

Greets to all.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
They have the same graphics hardware, so theoretically no.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Sergio PC:
Thats what I thought.

And whats the deal with the dedicated 3D chip?

Greets fellass.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] iRiKi:
on one side there is Open GL|ES (libgles_cm.dll), and on the other there is Direct3D which microsoft already said it will drop support in WM7.

the link you gave was the "Diamond Ati d3d driver.cab" which contains only the d3dm_ati.dll (the direct3d dll) in which Hologram app *seems* to be based at.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Aturayd:
So when do we get Tegra?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] xawen:
Thanks for the clarification. It still seems really odd that they'd include that in the Diamond ROMS, but not the TP ones. For what it's worth TouchFlo does seem to be running a bit smoother on my Fuze after loading that .cab. I know that's not the performance that this thread is about, but every little bit helps :)
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
Ok, the first step has been made.

http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=1806

Now we need more support. If you care about the graphic performance get involved!
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] topspeclt:
Does anybody know yet whether it is a limitation of hardware or the inadequacy of the drivers?

Furthermore, I didn't know the HTC Touch Pro had ATI Imageon hardware! Can this be confirmed?

EXTREMELY disappointed wih the TP graphics performance. You can see the horrible refresh rate of graphic updates and the device is sluggish as hell.

My HP Jornada 928 is better than this! I've was expecting at least a leap in graphic performance but it's clearly not the case.

First and LAST HTC ever.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] TehPenguin:
I hate to say it guys - but there you actually have no ground for your complaints.

Although the performance isn't as good as previous devices, HTC never claims on their site or in any press release that their phone is faster than any previous version (except to say that the network connectivity is faster with HSDPA) or do they say that the 3D performance of the phone is better\extremely fast.

That said, if enough people complain, maybe they'll release an update - like they did for the Kaiser...
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] dr g:
Of course we have grounds. If we know it can and should perform better, that's grounds. They don't have to claim anything, if you find out a company cheaped out and gave you a gimped product, you have every right and responsibility to complain.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] missingnoo:
After emailing HTC about this issue this is what I got:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding your HTC Touch Pro.

We understand you need all the information to best utilize your device. If you have done a hard reset on your device, this is the last troubleshooting step we can offer. All third party applications are not guaranteed to work on our HTC devices. We do apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced.

Carlos, I hope we have answered your question in detail. Please feel free to contact us again if you have any further questions.

HTC Technical Support

and there u have it :mad::rolleyes::mad::rolleyes:

EDIT: This was the response HTC gave me after asking them why all my 3D apps ran as slow as molasses.

Need to write a follow up to their response.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] B18DelSolT:
i swear we need to creat a webpage just for bashing HTC Devices and all there issues. foward the webpage to HTC and tell them we are tierd of this here is what we have done till you guys get straighten out your problems.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Weststar:
I really hope this gets fixed. It really pisses me off how the graphics aren't much different from my old Wizard's from like 2 years ago. And that had a TI OMAP :mad:.

We should create a petition.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] char:
Driver issues - again?!?

Hello,

I came from HTC TyTn2 Kaiser and I now feel that I'm back in the past! Around this time past year I had bought a new shiny Kaiser and over all XDA forums started appearing complaints about poor performance of Kaiser. I had the same problems (mostly regarding poor video playback performance) so I related to them. Till today I don't know about proper response from HTC (working drivers). There are partially successful efforts to port working drivers from other devices, but no official support from HTC. And remember / this is QVGA device, so it have about 1/4 pixels which need to be drawn on the screen - software drawing mode is not so demanding on the CPU.

Because during last summer I lost my original Kaiser, I waited for new keyboard-equipped device from HTC (Sony's Experia took to long for me) and two months back I bought Touch Pro. It seemed like decent device and at first sight it looked, that driver issues were resolved. How I was wrong - I don't play games on device, but recently I have tried and it was like Kaiser all over again. Poor performance for my shiny new and expensive device. Some tweaks found on these forums eliminated some issues enough to not to be too annoying (GPS Lag - little, "autolocking", keyboard, second today, overall responsiveness of device), but others remain. Without such great support from all users from XDA I would have today some other device (not iPhone, but whoch one?).

Making long post to come to some ending - from Kaiser days I remembered about official efforts to make HTC to improve their "drivers" through legal ways. Please see web http://htcclassaction.org/, maybe we should consider updating information found there about continuing issues on newest devices from HTC?

ChAr
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
My impression was that HTC didn't really do the business here. There was still a lot of effort required on the part of the guys here and HTCClassAction.org to get things going.

Up to 4 million triangles per second, and 133 million depth-tested, textured 3D pixels per second fill rate.

In other words, it has plenty of un-exploited potential. Easily enough to run smoothly if a) the drivers weren't **** and b) someone cared who could do something.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
I tend to think that's a driver issue, I really don't think that Qualcomm just lies about the numbers..

MSM7200 use ATI Imageon for sure. "Q3Dimension" with ATI Imageon inside.

http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf

http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew_bnry/pdf/brew_2008/TECH-606.pdf

So, if HTC doesn't talk anything about the WiFi connectivity this means that can have multiple problems, eg: like not detecting hotspots near > 1m, etc. That's just an example. We have all the rights to complain about this. They promised better graphics experience in the upcoming devices (when the complains with kaizer). They just promised but almost nothing actually changed.

@missingnoo LOL! In general the Customer Service sucks, a lot of stupid "solutions" and answers.

@Sergio PC thanks for the support!

@Weststar wanna start one? :P.

@char already contacted the site owner a while back. Let's hope he will update the site.

For now, only wmpoweruser.com published an article about it. Read also the comments. http://wmpoweruser.com/?p=1806#comments
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] gobmonster:
Im waiting for my email response so i can flame their lowsy support into giving me some real answers.

Ask them specifically, when you want to view a video on your device using WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER how should you encode it. I havent found any videos that run smoothly on this thing at any resolution lol, maybe im not looking hard enough :confused:
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
Another video showing poor graphics performance of the touch pro.

Side by side comparison, playing PocketPC game DragonBall (I have to use SPHelper to start it on HTC Tornado!)

HTC Tornado (180Mhz, yeah only 180Mhz!) vs HTC Touch Pro (528Mhz)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-F-8Saxseg

This is pathetic!
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Wishmaster89:
It's all because msm7201a graphic chip is not FPU. So FP operations have to be done by software. The first chip that will offer FPU will be snapdragon. Until then there is nothing we can do.

And as for video playback I wouldn't use CorePlayer for testing it because it uses only overlay and not full hardware acceleration at least for now, with version 2.0 we should see hardware acceleration cause they finally bought the license from qualcomm and without it the law forbids them from using it.

In conclusion graphic performance will suffer from the lack of FPU and the video performance should improve with full hardware acceleration. But in the end I think that all our concerns should be adressed in snapdragon chip which should come sometimes in the 1H.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] 6666:
so is the fuze worse than tilt or better? i have option to change in tilt for fuze free.....should i do it?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] gobmonster:
@6666, keep the fuze, atleast theres hope in new devices atleast :o

Okay, you lost me here. So the older intels that were used had a FPU? Why did htc switch to qualcomm then? Looks like we are paying more just to have an under performing device, amiright?

I dont want anything with a qualcomm in it after these experiences. HTC knew there was something wrong, thats why they came out with high clock speeds... it pretty much did nothing in terms of performance. It looks like samsung is really making a push for the winmo market, and they are looking more than worthy of my cash.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] shafez:
Sony Ericsson Xperia X1

I have downloaded and extracted the Sony Ericsson Xperia X1 d3d_ati.dll and libgles_cm.dll, Copied them to the Raphael kitchen OEM\OEMDrivers Folder.

Edited the OEMDRiver RGU file with the following :

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\D3DM\Drivers]

"LocalHook"="d3dm_ati.dll"

Coocked the rom and it works just fine and fast.

Running DiamondHologram v2.02 retuned 25 FPS., Atone time I got 50 FPS !!, But the graphic is very smooth .

I am attaching the files, Can be copied to the windows directory and then Edit the registry with the above changes.

The Diamond libgles_cm.dll file did not work, Manila kept restarting.

I hope this can be helpfull.

Best regards
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] fotoingo:
I can asure that the graphics performance on the X1 is better !

I tried to play the same videofile on both and on the X1 it plays smooth but on the Raphael there is a lag every 5 seconds or so.

I used this settings to convert a dvd avi file for those devices

(And yes ! I own both right now)

Video is encoded into 640x360 1008kbit/s

Sound into aac 128kbit/s

I used the tool from this thread to convert to OG avi file:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=453684

Greets !
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] missingnoo:
Running DiamondHologram v2.02 on my HTC Pro

I get 25-50 Fps already on mine. (without the X1 driver)

One thing I do notice though is that the percentage in memory goes up

and down like crazy at times...even when im not doing anything drastic!

It'll jump from 29-44% for no reason at all! @__@

sooo confused here. :confused:
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] B18DelSolT:
you guys think that of we spoke to ati about the issue they might be able to help push something out? that is if it really truly is and ati chip.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] ledg3:
how to uninstall?

I would like to test out the benefits of the Sony drivers, but is it possible to uninstall them? That is, cnce the files have been copied across and the above registry key updated, how do you uninstall the change? Can we simply delete the files using Total Commander and assume the ROM files will be visible again or do we have to backup the libm_ati.dll and libgles_cm.dll before replacing them? Restoring the registry key should be possible if you write down the original value beforehand I guess.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] Wishmaster89:
And have you tested graphic performance on the omnia? AFAIK it doesn't have any kind of graphic accelerator so I would say it uses software rendering(I haven't seen any kind of benchmark that proves my theory wrong). If I'm wrong please correct me someone. But if I'm right then I think that qualcomm is still better choice than marvell eventhough they may have few glitches. But lets wait and see how will snapdragon do in similar situation. And qualcomm processors came with higher clocks cause they were smaller than previous generation(90nm vs 65nm) that allowed them to clock it higher with similar voltage needed.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] shafez:
Yes you can uninstall by deleteing the files and restoring the registry key.

Best regards
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] wilcos:
Hi Guys,

I just tried an HTC touch HD for 2 minutes at a shop next door, and I was shocked! The performance of TF3D was so fast that I started wondering how come a device running at 800X600 with the same hardware as TP can perform so much faster... And after some research, I came across this thread.

Any thoughts? Any benchmarks for or against? Can be something related to drivers?

Thanks,

Wilco
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] shafez:
Toch HD is no better than Touch Pro, Read the following thread.

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=442712

It has the same graphics problems.

Regards
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
Why do you recommend Qualcomm when they have history of under-delivering, and are hated by practically everybody in the industry? Why stick with the losing team? Why be the victim that's constantly trying to rationalize the abuse?

The fact that software-based graphics on another cpu destroys current hardware-accelerated Qualcomms is a bright red-flag -- the writing is on the wall. The problem is there's no other decent touch-screen+keyboard+3D device on the market right now for us to jump to. This hole is very open to stealing by Nokia, et al if they would get their gears moving.

The d3dm_ati LocalHook tweak only removes the HTC illegally shipping the MS D3D conformance TEST driver and points it to the proper D3D for OpenGL ES wrapper. You could probably replace this with the Omnia D3D software-accelerated driver for better performance.

That's the only missing nit to complete the "graphics drivers" on the Raphael/Blackstone as shipped. It's one D3D dll that isn't really used by most software (except maybe the Diamond Hologram here), and D3D is "rumored" to be slated to be removed in WM7 anyways. The libgles drivers are "about" exactly the same across Diamond/Raphael/X1/HD currently.

I should know if you know who I am.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] DSF:
Is there anyone with Dell Axim X51V? Please PM me, I need some help.

@NuShrike do yo know where I can find more information about MSM7201A chipset? Eg. a detailed datasheet.

BTW.. thank you for your posts, very helpfull.

@shafez we need better 2D drivers... If I'm not wrong, many games are using DirectDraw (which is not hardware accelerated).

If you benchmark some videos on different devices (eg: Samsung Omnia) you'll see clearly that XScale (Marvell) is above Qualcomm. XScale processor inside Omnia has integrated hardware video acceleration.

About the FPU. According to this, Qualcomm MSM7201A has an ARM9 coprocessor. Someone wrote here that you need to software emulate FPU operations. Why if it has already a coprocessor? Isn't that used for such operations with floating point numbers?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] misfitwrx:
i have an x51v what do you need to know?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] shafez:
Actually d3d_ati.dll and libgles_cm.dll are not found the Raphael and HD Roms, They are found only in the Diamond and X1 Roms which I find strange.

Regards
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] owziee:
I transfered a Prison Break episode straight to my HTC Diamond without encoding it to smaller size or anything, I don't quite remember but it was a 640.X something resolution Divx/Avi video and it played great in my Diamond with latest Coreplayer.

No way in hell I could've done that in my old Omap based ~200 Mhz HTC S710, it would've completely choked! So I wouldn't say an old omap cpu is faster, maybe the VGA resolution in Diamond/Pro is too much for the cpu when it comes to games and stuff?
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] jamesd256:
Yes, this is how I see it, which is why I would love to get a display resolution switcher running. I don't feel I need vga for day to day use, and I'm sure it would be snappy as hell at qvga.

My experience of the Athena indicates as much anyway.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
Only information I got is the ones from Omikr0n's original Qualcomm thread as well as the ones collected in the KaiserGL thread.

The 7200 and the 7201 should be the same (minus Broadcom patent-infringing processes). The A just means 65nm shrink from the original 90nm for reduced heat/power.
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] nuke1:
From the Diam forum here.

Just wanted to say that though Qualcomm think they are being smartasses not releasing the drivers, most people don't even know about their processors underproducing because of driver issues, and tend to end up thinking Qualcomm just produces pathetic/crappy processors.

So I say, bravo Qualcomm. With you all the way... not!
[Touch Pro, Fuze General] NuShrike:
The ARM9 is used mostly for taking care of the 3G/WiFi/normal cellphone duties (may be some alarm duties), and the ARM11 is used to run the application/pda side. The radio rom is an different embedded OS is what runs on the ARM9, I think. I'm not sure who runs the GPS as it may be its own core.

Then, the idea is what is graphically related is off-loaded to the Imageon.

Doesn't seem to work out very well though, and may be implemented badly as the N95/OMAP doesn't have these lag problems.