yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Magisk] HippoMan:
We know that Google supports root per se, while at the same time, they are engaged in ongoing efforts to keep enhancing rooting-detection and modding-detection capabilities in order to make it easier for app developers to know when to cripple their applications on rooted or modded devices, if they so choose.

A parallel effort is ongoing among other developers who are trying to improve root-hiding and mod-hiding utilities with the goal of thwarting Google's root-detection and mod-detection capabilities.

This is now a major cat-and-mouse game between Google (the cat) and those detection-thwarting devs (the mice). Given the cat's ongoing improvements in root-detection and mod-detection, the mice are having to come up with more and more utilities, many of which are not yet ready for prime time, and which currently collectively comprise a complex, confusing, and sometimes self-contradictory set of software options.

This cat-and-mouse game has resulted in huge amounts of wasted productivity as well as literally tens of thousands of messages asking for and offering help in Magisk-related discussion threads, where many of these messages end up being confused, confusing, and repetitious.

When people editorialize in those threads about this cat-and-mouse game itself and the future of rooting and modding, the posters of such messages are more and more tending to get ostracized and even sometimes have their posts blocked by the moderators.

The purpose of this thread is to offer a place where people can freely opine, editorialize, and rant about this cat-and-mouse game and about the future of rooting and modding. Such posts will be on topic here.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
As for me, I see rooting and modding to be on a death spiral.

While rooting itself will continue be allowed, rooted and modded devices will have an increasing number of apps blocked or crippled due to Google's ongoing improvements in detection coupled with a parallel increase in the magnitude of the set of apps which will make use of these detection capabilities.

This will lead to an increasingly undesirable Android experience for many of us.

As for me, I've been staying on Android 10 and Magisk 23.0. This allows me to pass SafetyNet and run my banking app and other apps and mods, and I can still use TWRP for nandroid backup and restore of System, Boot, and Vendor, as well as for Data.

I see no advantage to Android 11, 12, or beyond, given the crazy, headache-stimulating rabbit hole that I currently would have to enter in order to try to obtain workable root-hiding and mod-hiding under these OS versions. Given Google's ongoing detection improvements, I fear that this rabbit hole will only continue to get more psychedelic.

So for me, Android 11, 12, and beyond are already pretty much as good as dead.
[Magisk] scorpio76r:
I have been thinking about going back to Android 10 too. You have no worries about security patches?or are you able to update security patches your self?
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I personally don't care about any more security patches for my OS. It's secure enough for me.

Anyway, the only upgrades offered to me for my OS are for Android 11.
[Magisk] scorpio76r:
I understand
[Magisk] Smedslund:
I don´t see the issue. I´m on A112 fully rooted stock and everything works flawless and it´s not hard to update.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
What device do you use? And are you using any root-hiding or mod-hiding utilities?

And are you able to run Google Pay or any banking apps, without their functionality being blocked?

If there are one or more devices which can be rooted and modded fairly easily, and for which root and modding can be successfully and reliably hidden without complicated headaches, then I might be willing to try such a device.
[Magisk] zzz2002:
The most important feature, to me, of running a custom ROM is the ability to remove apps and features that I see as threats to my privacy and/or security.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I have found that I can remove undesirable apps and features and also prevent their reinstallation more easily on a rooted device.
[Magisk] Smedslund:
OnePlus 9 pro

Magisk 24 and Zygisk deny list

Yes. No issues
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Thank you. I've been relatively happy with OnePlus, actually.

Is there a version of TWRP that works on this device under this configuration?

Ideally, I'd like to still be able to do nandroid backups and restores of System, Boot, and Vendor, although I'm not optimistic about this being possible any more.
[Magisk] zzz2002:
Agreed.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
As one of my colleagues is fond of saying about himself, "You're only young once, but you can be immature for your entire life."

:)
[Magisk] Smedslund:
Sorry, no. Not recommend for A12 at least
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Oh well. It sadly seems that nandroid backup/restore of anything other than Data is now a thing of the past.

And thank you!
[Magisk] VD171:
I feel I'm the cat now.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Is it because you are hungry for a Google dinner and believe you are likely to enjoy it soon?
[Magisk] VD171:
No.

Just because Google is

NOT

"engaged in ongoing efforts to keep enhancing rooting-detection and modding-detection capabilities in order to make it easier for app developers to know when to cripple their applications on rooted or modded devices".

Even without Google, detections for rooting and (time-wasting) modified roms era so easy.

Google is just making their own business.

No one works for free, even if it is not paid in money.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
My impression is that Google is making it their own business because they make money from apps whose developers want those apps to detect root and modding, and that's why Google is working to make it easier for those developers to determine whether this rooting and modding has taken place.

It seems to me that if Google wasn't getting pressure from those app developers to improve SafetyNet and other related tools, Google wouldn't care much about rooting-detection and modding-detection.
[Magisk] VD171:
The answer for your worries is: OBVIOUSLY... Lol.

Only Google can decide for Google's actions.

In the next versions of Android, you can not read the list of apps, for example.

This is not "make it easier for those developers to determine whether this rooting and modding".

This thread is a waste of time and only creates panic with no reason.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I think the future of modding (rooting & custom roms) will be that it must be done on a device which banking and other root detection apps are not installed.

Our central bank (govt.) announced today that if you switch device, (and if you know how device ids works then that includes wiping your phone) you will have to do a "biometrical" verification, that means allowing the app to use your camera to take a video of your face and voice talking and making certain emotions and then submit it to the bank's database (which already has your face image because it's mandatory to show up in person in front of a bank teller to register to a bank) in order to use mobile banking. Every bank having operations in Vietnam must comply, starting Jul 2024.

Modding is very risky and device wipes can happen very often, so I think this is the final nail in the coffin to a certain amount of modders

p/s: you have to also do that if you make a transaction/transfer higher than US$ 500, with mobile banking of course
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I agree that these sorts of things seem to be the future of Android, and not only in Vietnam ... and not in the distant future, either.

Over the years, I have never used any of my Android devices for contactless payments, and I only access my bank via my Android devices under very rare circumstances, and I never do so via any banking apps, but rather, solely by web access to the banks' sites via an Android browser.

So, this future of Android will not affect me, personally. However, lots of other people are going to suffer as these instances of Android deterioration continue to go into effect.

Users of modded and rooted Android devices need to be prepared for this sad ultimate outcome.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I wouldn't say it's the future of Android, I would say it's the future of any kind of mobile device modding.

The situation here has nothing to do with specifically android, it happens to everyone, even iOS users. The cat and mouse game here happens solely with the decision of bank CEOs and IT department since they don't use any of Google's provided play integrity framework and the software mechanism of Android to make root detection easier hasn't drastically changed, IMO. It's just the hiding got ahead, then apps learnt the hiding mechanism and its vulnerabilities to detect it in a future update. Hiding zygisk is already a pain in the bottom.

I wish doing banking without the need of a mobile app is a less torturing experience. Many don't offer a web banking, or if yes the features are limited and still require the app for verification. Offline banking via teller or an ATM? Good luck with the atrocious fees. Only online banking is free these days.

I already gave up on Android modding, as I have told you guys. I still lurk and interact with modding forums though, it's my favorite way to kill some free time
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Yes, I agree. When I discussed the future of Android, I didn't mean that to exclude any other mobile services. I was just focusing on the Android side of things, knowing full well that it's a universal trend not limited to just one mobile service.

Android just has further to fall than iOS, given that iOS is already very close to the bottom of the barrel. And it won't be long before they're more or less equal in undesirability to those of us who have enjoyed modding.

One of the many sad trends these days is the world-wide growth of what I'll call "corporatocracy" ... i.e., large corporate entities subsuming governments, with CEO's becoming our de facto leaders.

I'm glad that I'm old enough not to be able to see this in full fruition.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
Ironically iOS modding gave me more joy these days. The whole trollstore thing is all I need, it's limited to some degree but in some it's more liberating than Android modding (The apps installed via trollstore automatically has higher privileges than normall apps installed via app store since TS is a system app exploit). It's not a jailbreak so nothing is crippled, I only get more and more out of it, e.g. enable full external display support which is only available on M-series chip iPads on my iPad mini
[Magisk] Jinnn92:
It's ridiculous, that's someone can buy anything, just by having the numbers which are not protected anyhow, and can be easily shoulder surfed.

Some companies, like Amazon, charge the money WITHOUT CV, just the card number and name, which are again, made to be visible.

But, the "safeguards" and "intelligent" systems, some banks use, are equally dumb, if not worse.

I had my card stolen few years ago, and my bank is just an Android app, you can't do much without, but their "advanced AI fraud detection" wanted me to confirm the transactions with Mastercard 3D secure, but after I obviously didn't authorize these, they let through dozens of same type of transactions right after.

(Airbnb reservations made under a different name, abroad).

No, Google is the one to blame for the trashy permission system Android has.

They designed so "log in with Google account" is a contact permission.

Then they started shaming and naming apps with so called "dangerous/sensitive" permissions, while Google literally made the developers use them for basic functionality, like location permission for info about wifi.

And the real sensitive info, like list of

usage all installed apps, and basic usage data are cannot be restricted by the user.

Google tries their best to kill AOSP, they started migrating basic functionalities to Play Services for years
[Magisk] ipilcher:
Yes it will. Apps are increasingly doing PlayIntegrity checks and root detection, even when they have no good reason to do so.

American Airlines, Marriott, and Now for Reddit are all examples that happen to affect me personally.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
https://xdaforums.com/t/discussion-magisk-the-age-of-zygisk.4393877/post-89420810

The above post in that other thread reminds me about how vitally important it is that only people with DEVICE-integrity-enabled phones should be allowed to purchase hamburgers!
[Magisk] zgfg:
Good for the health of those that don't pass
[Magisk] HippoMan:
https://xdaforums.com/t/module-play-integrity-fix-safetynet-fix.4607985/post-89474999

This referenced post is just a reminder of how vitally important it is to have a huge, massive amount of device security when playing games like Pokemon Go.

This is just as important as needing to have extreme device security before being able to purchase hamburgers at places like McD.

Just remember: Everything that isn't totally forbidden must be totally mandatory!
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I don't have an unlocked device and still is very uncomfortable with this.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Regarding the Googlefrinchians' erstwhile watchword, "Don't be evil", when I first heard it a couple decades or so ago, the following came to mind:

Evil consists of things like rape, torture, murder, genocide, etc. By simply eschewing evil, the Googlefrinchians were setting an extremely low bar, and it left them lots of room for all kinds of other malfeasance.

And nowadays, the Googlefrinchians have even gone further and abandoned that slogan altogether.
[Magisk] wilsonhlacerda:
Clandestino

CrDroid clandestino

ArrowOS clandestino

EvoX clandestino

Root user ilegal!
[Magisk] rodken:
... more like covert operation(s) taken straight out of the playbook from Call of Duty®.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
Google is only one part of the problem. App developers is the other.

The days of Chinese-market phone importing and Android modding in Vietnam is numbered. The government ID app (which the cops are responsible) started to require bootloader locking, though in a very weird way which uses local attestation and is still compatible for Android 5, 6 and 7. They pretty much killed access to people who just have the bootloader unlocked without rooting, and the solution isn't very bright: to root, which isn't really going anywhere in today's tech-society or to lock the bootloader. Many got their phone unlocked just to flash Global ROM over the Chinese one to use full GMS and have Vietnamese as device language. They probably intent to ban sales of grey market phone too with this decision, they are the cops after all.

Banking/government apps in Vietnam learn from each other very very quickly. I can see them jumping on the hardware attestation train (in different levels) very very soon, give them a year or 2. I no longer have a bootloader unlocked phone, but still very uncomfortable when a possible option is taken away
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I agree about developers. More and more of them are using the continually "enhanced" (ha ha!) Googlefrinchian-supplied tools in order to "improve" (ha ha!) their apps for us.
[Magisk] rodken:
It goes without saying of a few uncertainties that the Vietnamese government's long-term goals for this policy are not entirely clear. It could be a security measure, an attempt to control app installations, or a combination of factors.

It's unclear how strictly the bootloader locking requirement will be enforced. There might be ways to bypass it or find workarounds.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
There are already ways to bypass it, for now. The problem is the success rate is not really high, and it's too cumbersome for an average joe. Many non tech savvy people have their bootloader unlocked for reasons I mentioned, also blaming the official smartphone market is just pure garbage. Chinese region Android phones are similar or better just for a fraction the price.
[Magisk] rodken:
It's interesting how that situation creates challenges for non-technical users who rely on unlocked bootloaders. Whether or not there might be workarounds, they're not ideal. Finding a balance between security and user choice is an ongoing challenge for governments other than the Vietnamese government and smartphone ecosystems.

I would agree that blaming the smartphone market might be harsh, but it's understandable why users like me opt for unlocked bootloaders and Chinese or non-Chinese ROMs if the official market offers limited options or higher prices. This highlights potential shortcomings in the official market that might be addressed.

I suppose that forcing users to choose between rooting or a less desirable ROM will create a difficult situation.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
When there's a decision like this it's never going to be in the users' best interests. Anyone studying financial and tech that had lessons in risk managment will know that it's always for the financial/whatever institution's "security", meaning to restrict access as much as possible.

There are already arguments supporting the bootloader locking requirement, saying it benefits tax collection and all devices are "certifed" to our networks. Tax collection here is literally hell, and certifed and non certified to run on networks is pretty much arbitrary, since there next to 0 difference between Chinese and Global models.

I don't have high hopes for the decision to change, our government is literally a "fork" of China with numerous terrible censorship and internet pricing decisions in the recent years.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
While your government might currently be hellish in comparison to some others, it's just a matter of time before all those others also increase their own hellishness to the same level.

This is a losing game for us users.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
It's ironic since the more they try to increase "security" the more personal information & data got leaked out (by internal employees, money money). Most of the data come from stuff they make you do for "your own safety, privacy and convenience", like mandatory ID to have a phone number, no alternative web browser version for banking apps, super expensive or outright denying offline service at counter at banks and government agencies, etc.

Fun fact: almost all of Vietnamese's basic information like ID, phone number, home address are publicly available and accessible (free for first time, cryptocurrency required for further inquiries) via a freaking telegram bot. Data leaked from banks, government agencies, network carriers, etc. Having multiple scam calls after getting a credit card or sign up into that VNeID app is normal here. Don't ask why some people aren't paranoid enough with their data, because pretty much any basic info is already on the public internet.
[Magisk] wilsonhlacerda:
It is exactly the same in Brazil. 100% of everything you wrote, including Telegram bot.
[Magisk] smt0222:
Even food apps like 85 degrees and California Pizza Kitchen won't run... while all my banking apps still work (though Citi detects but allows to proceed using it).
[Magisk] HippoMan:
No good reason? On the contrary! For example, it's absolutely essential that our phones have total, locked-down, infinite-level security before we can use them to purchase McDonald's hamburgers!

We must have no leeway for anything! Everything that isn't totally forbidden must be totally mandatory!
[Magisk] 9varo:
Nice thread. It's 2024 and still the same. Next time I'll stick to Android 13 (or less) instead on trying to pass play integrity. It seems it would be the same for a long time...
[Magisk] ImArghya7:
Even in Android 13 how can a user bypass the blank screen issue while screen recording/casting on protected apps without rooting?
[Magisk] qwertyuiop1289:
AFAIK it's not possible
[Magisk] ibe8:
I heard oneplus devices are super easy to root. No wonder it works flawlessly.
[Magisk] bdr127:
What does the Android version have to do with this? Play Integrity applies to any Android version, so sticking to Android 13 won't help you avoid it....
[Magisk] 9varo:
Android 13 has safety net, play integrity is Android 14, which is a bit stronger.

EDIT: my bad, Android 13 has safetynet too.
[Magisk] Nergal di Cuthah:
Pretty sure PI was in 13 too (and maybe earlier)
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I'm using PI both in A13 and A11.

PI was announced in 2021, and they started rolling it out in 2022.
[Magisk] 9varo:
I'm sorry, thought it was A14 stuff. I edited the post, my bad.
[Magisk] bdr127:
My original point is that Play Integrity is irrespective of Android version. It applies to anyone using any version of Android since version 4.4 KitKat (oldest version to support the Play Integrity API) that uses any app that incorporates the API. It's not a Android version thing.... It's a Google Play thing.

So, for example... You could be on Android 14 and not use any apps that use the Play Integrity API and be totally fine. You could be on Android 10 and use a bunch of apps that use the API and you'll have problems.

Maybe the reason you thought it's connected to an Android version (in this case, A14) is because, although it was first released in 2022, it wasn't until the fall of 2023 that app developers (including Google devs) really started using it more, which coincidentally coincided with the release of A14 and also Google deprecating Safetynet (so devs already using Safetynet transitioned to Play Integrity).
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Android continues to deteriorate.

Fortunately for me, I've always used a hardware wallet, I never use RCS, I don't live in a country whose government ID's are required to be on a mobile device, I don't utilize a custom ROM or custom kernel, and I don't patronize McDonald's. Therefore, this ongoing Android deterioration has had a minimal effect on me, so far ... aside from the massive headaches which now are an unavoidable part of the modding and rooting procedures that we need to suffer through nowadays.

However, lots of modders make use of one or more of these things and aren't nearly so lucky.

And I'm sure that it's just a matter of time before Android's continued "enhancements" (ha ha!) and the ongoing "security improvements" (ha ha!) on the part of app developers will start to significantly ruin my own Android usage experience, as well.

At that point, I'll probably have to give in and finally adopt the "Two-Phone Solution", where the second device is not modded Android. And in protest to the Googlefrinchians and all of the over-zealous Android app developers, my other device would be an iPhone.

Or maybe we'll have the good fortune of a usable, well-featured Linux device or other similar alternative coming into existence, in which case I could have the satisfaction of finally being able to say, "Good riddance, Android! Don't let the door slam you in the ass on your way out."

But I'm not holding my breath waiting for any device like that that to appear.
[Magisk] Renate:
Don't be so rigid! Only a few months ago I went into a Burger King. Ok, it was only to use the restroom in an emergency. :p

I kind of do that now. I have a stock unrooted phone, but my ereaders (which I care about) are rooted, modded and not on the internet.

I'm not sure that Android is the worst. It's just part of the degeneration of the universe.

Bloat is everywhere. Every platform has to think of the next stupid thing for Windows 12 or Android 15 or OS XXX to differentiate it from the last version.

Features get rammed down your throat even though you never asked for them.

90% of web searches for Windows are "how can I disable <stupid new feature>?"
[Magisk] HippoMan:
You're right. I should be much more open-minded in my avoidance of fast-food joints. 😅

Yes, it's impossible to violate the second law of thermodynamics.

I agree. Because of Android's erstwhile ease of modification that lasted for more than a decade, it had been a welcome alternative to iOS and to those desktop OS's, because we could override most of its negative features.

I'm just sad that Android's days of offering this road to salvation have pretty much come to an end.