yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Magisk] zgfg:
Google has announced two years ago that SN will be deprecated and replaced by PI

And we'll back in 2022 they updated GMS= Google Play Services (that's where are the SN and PI APIs, not in the Android version) supporting in parallel SN and PI

And they have laid down the dates when new apps deployed to PlayStore must no more call SN API (already passed), when updates of old apps on PlayStore that previously used SN must switch to PI, when all apps on PlayStore that used SN must be updated for PI, when Google would push the new version of GMS no more supporting SN but only PI (currently as announced for Dec 31, 2024) and when they would definitely turn off support for SN on the Google servers side (also, Dec 31 as of currently)

That is, with A9, A13 or A14 (does not matter).now you can still test both SN and PI - just download both checkers from PlayStore and test

For the apps it can be different story, old apps may still use SN but new apps (or their updated versions).have already switched to PI. It may depend when they were released/updated on PlayStore or if they are not deployed via PlayStore

Anyway and irregardless of your Android version, if Google does not prolong the dates one more time, after Dec 31 all SN requests should be responded by GMS (already from your phone) or from Google servers by API error XXX and Not Evaluated, once the support for SN will end up
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I think some will go the apk modding route if they have the required skill, but I suppose most of the modded apks will go private. Some apks may go public, but I doubt many of those would have open source patches but with those sensitive stuff like my own money, having potential keylogger in my app from a rando on the internet is not a good idea.

If I ever go back to rooting, best way I would say is my previous nonrooted phones since I keep almost all of them, or a tiny and a bit underpowered Japanese Android phone, there are many candidates with screen smaller than 5 inches, (at least data is compatible with our networks, calling not required in this situation) with an used flagship smartphone supporting OEM unlocking, preferably 1-2 years old.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Could you give the names (perhaps in a private message, if you prefer) of one or more of those small Japanese Android phones that you mentioned? Perhaps I could make one of them my "second phone", after all, instead of totally abandoning Android for that purpose.

In either case, thank you very much.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I know a few, but their Android version is stuck around 9-12, one example is on 13 but it's a flip phone (smartphone with a keypad):

Rakuten Hand, Rakuten Mini (Android 9 or 10 max)

Balmuda Phone (Android 12 max)

Mode 1 retro II (the smart flip phone, Android 13)

All has GMS, Google certified. Does it work on your network though is a big problem, because most of them came through a carrier contract. Rakuten is a network carrier itself in Japan, and the Balmuda has a version (with its own model numer afaik for SoftBank. You know SoftBank's level of lockdown in software is on par with Verizon on Pixels, sometimes even worse like Sharp phones which doesn't have recovery and fastboot, I know since I have one). The flip phone is the best bet since it only comes carrier unlocked (sim-free in Japan).

For example, the rakuten mini can connect to cell networks in Vietnam, but cannot make calls, the Hand (4g and 5g) can make calls on every carrier but one which has peculiar VoLTE settings (my Sharp phone also couldn't get VoLTE working on this carrier also, at least the phone supports 2G and 3G so I still can make calls).
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Thank you very much for *all* of this info!!!

I will investigate all of them. I don't care about the Android version. I actually am trying to avoid newer Android releases like A14 and A15. Also, I would need my "second phone" to work on T-Mobile in the U.S., at least for phone calls and SMS and also for LINE messaging (I have lots of Japanese friends) ... and that connectivity is one of the things I'll be investigating.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
That's really good, you can probably get way more accurate information than I
[Magisk] mwzdalne:
I'd think that the RCS change is just to lure Apple into adding RCS because it's "securer", then they'll hopefully revert it
[Magisk] YandereSan:
I doubt it. Google's nuking adblock with manifest v3 this month, which is inline with them using their market dominance to secure their revenue streams.

This is no different. Google is looking at Apple, likes what they see, and is attempting to wrestle back control of their operating system. They're starting with nice-to-have features like RCS, but I do eventually see them going after everyday services like Gmail and Maps, all under the guise of "security."

We're talking about a company that teased DRM for the web and banned on-device VPN, but I don't want to derail this thread.

I just discovered my RCS isn't working again and turned it off. Google constantly tampering with it makes it extremely unreliable, dangerous, and downright negligent. Imagine someone trying to reach you via RCS chat about a medical emergency and you aren't able to receieve it because of this dumb ****. If Google insists on tampering with communication and can't provide a reliable service, they need to get the **** out (and stay out) of handling communications. Let the carriers do it.

The worst part is you don't know it's broken until you actually try to send a message.

I can also imagine if someone does actually die as a result of this, Google will hide behind Perkins Coie and point at their rag of a contract. "yOu ShOuLd hAvE kNoWn!!!" Yeah, **** you.
[Magisk] Nergal di Cuthah:
View attachment 6114815

Darn RCS
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I wonder why people at xda don't choose the apk modding route when their phones has an unlocked bootloader (and rooted). The VNeID app that I mentioned before can literally be modded without rooting to work on unlocked, nonrooted devices.

It's very easy to do, literally LSPatch with BootloaderSpoofer and IAmNotADeveloper installed, app works wonderfully after patching. A good helpline for those who don't want to root or change ROM or back to stock and lock the bootloader. Probably the light at the end of the tunnel.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
From the Play Integrity thread:

It's really sad that we've gotten to the point where we need to use facilities that are at least approaching the border of illegality, or perhaps even crossing it, simply to get our modded devices to work as well as we used to be able to achieve easily up until a couple of years ago or so.
[Magisk] sawdoctor:
What peeves me off the most is 99% of the things i use root for i shouldn't have to. I like to theme my phone Google blocked it without root. I'm in the UK and without root i can't get Google features in the USA
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I'm in the same boat. I don't use RCS, and I've always used a leather wallet containing plastic bank cards. The reason I want root is to enable the use of Tasker, LSPosed, and some other utilities in order to add and modify Android capabilities so that they work the way that *I* want them to work.

These kinds of enhancements and modifications are easy on Linux computers and Mac computers, and they are also somewhat easy on Windows 11 computers. I just want to be able to alter my Android device in similar ways.

I am hoping and praying for a usable Linux phone to come out before Android deteriorates into total uselessness (by my standards). By "usable", I mean a Linux phone upon which Android software is *not* superimposed. In other words, I just want a phone which is nothing more than a tiny version of my Linux laptop ... with a SIM card and a touch-screen. Given that Linux boxes are all rooted by default (as are MacOS boxes and Windows boxes), I could then modify the look-and-feel and other behavior of that phone in all the ways that I want, without any software being disabled or crippled.

Sadly, I'm not holding my breath while waiting for such a Linux phone to appear.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
From the Play Integrity thread:

The more Googlefrinchian software that we use (such as the GoogleOne VPN replacement), the higher the probability is that this software will be disabled or crippled on a modded phone.
[Magisk] CZ.Kostra:
You speak from my heart. 👍
[Magisk] sawdoctor:
There was actually an xda Linux phone but for whatever reason they never actually got shipped. I'd consider the pinephone if it had better specs, some great Linux mobile distros ATM, manjaro phosh is great
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I haven't checked phosh. If it doesn't have Android built on top of it, I'd definitely consider it. Same goes for the other Linux mobile distros ... I couldn't find any without Android stuff being superimposed, but perhaps I overlooked some things. Time to check again.

Thank you.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
All I have found when looking for info about the latest Linux Phone offerings are that either the OS consists of Android libraries and software superimposed upon the Linux OS, or that the device is slow and unreliable, including hardware issues.

Neither of these options are acceptable for me. I'm still hoping for improvements in the pure Linux (i.e., no built-in Android libs) devices.
[Magisk] sawdoctor:
Most arch based mobile os are just arm os modded for phone. I use manjaro as my daily driver on my laptop and they're really pushing the arm development

Manjaro ARM Beta31 with Phosh (PinePhone / PinePhonePro)

Manjaro ARM Beta31 of Phosh for PinePhone! The Manjaro ARM project is proud to announce our Thirtyfirst BETA release for the PinePhone running Phosh! Those images run the 6.1 or 6.2 kernel from Megi. Features: Camera app with access to back and front camera, including autofocus Auto-Rotate...

forum.manjaro.org
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Oh, that's good to know.

But unless I'm mistaken, I thought I read somewhere that the pinephone has the following battery issue: if the battery fully drains, then there is no way to restart the device, even if power is plugged in.

Or am I mixing up the pinephone with something else?
[Magisk] HippoMan:
After more investigation, it looks like it's indeed pinephone, but this battery-fully-drains problem does not always occur. It seems to be dependent upon which boot-loader and which OS version are utilized.

There are a number of options for each, and not all are as functional as others.

Now, in my spare time, I am going to start investigating pinephone in much more detail. It may indeed turn out to be my exit path away from Android.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
About linux phones, I have a few to say

First is corporate app developers hate users given too many rights with their phone, since it will poses risks to them and unskilled users so app support on mobile linux won't be rich. If a smartphone doesn't have any app support then it's not much better than a dumphone, just look at windows phone back in the day, in my view it's just a more advanced dumphone. If I have to choose a more advanced dumphone I would take SymbianOS rather than linux (long live Series 60v3), even in the modern day and age. I don't even know if Linux mobile can handle phone calls and text messages correctly, and if it can handle IME at all. Vietnamese Telex/VNI IME is a pain in the arse to install and get it working on desktop Linux.

And hardware designed with Linux first (and open hardware in general) just doesn't make it in the business standpoint. It's in one of these cases: too expensive, design is too impratical or severely limited availability. And since it doesn't make sense business wise the first point will be the aftermath of this.

I have bad impression about Linux after I made some oopsie while updating components and just bricked the installation after a reboot. Having it running is already a pain, not all of my hardware has a ready driver for it, and then having my own essential software too. I would rather use XP SP3 than whatever version of distro that I experienced, though the distro I have tried are all debian/ubuntu based.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Thank you for sharing so much!

I've been happily using Linux on my desktops and laptops for nearly 30 years. I also have a Windows box and an ancient Mac, neither of which I use for anything important.

The main things I do on my Android device that are not available on my Linux box are SMS texting, making phone calls, and taking photos.

On my Android device, there are only a few apps besides those for SMS, phone calls, and photos whose functionality is not also present on my Linux box. And the only features I need root for under Android are things that are routinely available on my Linux computer.

If I can find a workable Linux phone with reliable photo, SMS, and phone capability for use here in the U.S., I think I could switch to it and then just use a cheap, low-end Android phone for the very small number of services like Uber that I use from time to time and which are not currently available under Linux.

This, of course, depends on whether I can find a Linux phone which is functional enough and reliable enough without any Android add-on libraries.

Pinephone seems promising, and there might be others. As I mentioned above, I'm now starting to investigate Pinephone and more Linux phone possibilities.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I'm definitely going to use even more cash (cards still hybrid since google doesn't ban custom rom, root and developer options) and try to use paper (physical) personal documents when possible.

Government ID app after the very big security hole of not checking app signature (I could mod the apk) decided to make one step back (removing bootloader locking restrictions after major backlash) and multiple steps forward (detecting modified framework, e.g. bootloaderspoofer and iamnotadeveloper aka banning developer options will definitely not work; banning AOSP based custom roms like lineage, evox)

Central bank decided that to make bank transfers with amount > 400USD per time, >800USD per day, the user has to allow the banking app to use the front camera to take a video of your face, and starting from 2025 all transactions will face under the same circumstances.

I would rather trust google (with me uploading personal stuff to Drive and Photos) more than our government, at least G won't jail me, scam call me and decide how I spend MY OWN money.
[Magisk] flyoffacliff:
Sometimes I get the feeling that people are slowly giving up and throwing in the towel on all of Google's fingerprint and key box non-sense. How many people are left? Maybe about 10 on this thread, a handful on Telegram somewhere, and a few more scattered about... Out of the billions of Android users in the world.

Because what's the point in spending hours patching something if it's not going to last through the end of next week?

Has anyone else noticed things dwindling out? If it wasn't for 2 or 3 main contributors, there would be basically nothing left. No more rooting if we wish to fully remain in the Google eco-system.
[Magisk] BillGoss:
I will continue to root my phones because, unlike Apple who have a great backup system for their devices, Google's backup solution is terrible in my opinion. So I'll keep using Swift Backup (requires root). And I'll keep removing all of the pre-installed and system apps I don't want on my phone.

I also don't use any apps that require device integrity and do all my banking in a browser.

Yes, I'll miss Google Wallet as well as RCS (which, in my opinion, shouldn't be tied to device integrity, just like secure web browsing isn't).

But, I agree, Google is making it impossible for most people to run a rooted phone.
[Magisk] intel_core_i7:
I wish I could do banking in a browser too. Current regulations and how our banking IT people decide what "security" is are ridiculous, everything is phone dependant.
[Magisk] geokilla:
How can we remove system apps now that Titanium Backup no longer works?
[Magisk] flyoffacliff:
It's been years since titanium backup has worked for me. It used to be the gold (I mean titanium) standard back in the day. There are other system app remover tools that work systemlessly with current Android versions.

Looks like last time I did it I used an app called debloater 0.26 that I side loaded.
[Magisk] GreenDotBlue:
Zygisk Assistant?
[Magisk] ethical_haquer:
@HippoMan (and anyone else who is interested in Linux phones)

I have a Pinephone Pro, so feel free to ask me any questions you might have!

Also, I have a thread on Linux phones here. It hasn't been updated in ages, but if people find it useful I may restart maintaining it.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Oh, thank you!!!

I'll ask a few questions tomorrow or the next day, when I have more time.

And I'll definitely check out that pinephone thread.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I see that there isn't much info yet in that linux-phone thread.

For the moment, my initial questions are:

(1) I am hoping for a linux-phone OS that does not have any Android libraries included. In other words, pure linux. I know there are different bootloaders and OS versions for the pinephone, so which ones can offer this "pure linux" environment? And which would you think are the best?

(2) In the case of OS's and bootloaders that do indeed offer Android libraries, how would these function with regard to Play Integrity? Would the device get flagged with an integrity level like BASIC or DEVICE, or would the device appear to have no Play Integrity at all for any Android apps that might run? In other words, would Android apps see the phone as a rooted or modded Android device?

(3) I need to have very reliable phone and SMS services in the U.S. via T-Mobile. Is that possible under any of those OS possibilities?

(4) I want at least reasonably reliable battery life. It doesn't necessarily have to be for a huge amount of time, but at least for most of a day's worth of battery use.

(5) I'd like some sort of reliable backup/restore software. Would I just use standard linux services for backup/restore, or are there special utilities for doing so under the pinephone?

(6) Would I simply be able to use apt for software updates?

Anyway, I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on, but these are what I can think of so far.

Thank you very much for any info you might be able to supply.
[Magisk] ethical_haquer:
Should I respond here, on that Linux phone thread, or somewhere else? Just let me know what you want.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Hmm ... here is good, because other people who don't like this Android cat-and-mouse game and who might be posting here may also be thinking of switching to a Linux phone.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Thank you for all of this very helpful and useful info!

My concern about Play Integrity is for the distros which do indeed offer Android libraries. I read about some linux-phone OS's which indeed offer that.

But I guess this wouldn't be the case at all with the pinephone, and I'm glad to know that.
[Magisk] BillGoss:
I'm also not happy with where Google is taking Android. I think of my phone as my mobile PC. So I expect the same level of freedom as I have on my Windows 11 PC.

I accept that secure payments might not be available - I can't do an NFC card transaction on my PC 😆 - but I would like everything else that I do on my PC to be doable on my phone, including having full admin rights.

But I run Windows on my PC because I've never gotten used to either the admin aspects of Linux nor it's user interface.

I do, however, run WSL 1 on my PC and Termux on my phone because I love being able to write shell scripts to make my life easier.

I have a spare OnePlus 8T that I can use to try out going down the Linux road. At this point I think my dislike of what Google is doing is similar to my dislike of the admin side of Linux. However, even though I'm an "old dog" (>70!), I'm happy to "learn new tricks".

PS: I suggest that someone, who's in this for the long haul, start a new thread in an appropriate forum and let us know. The Magisk forum isn't the right place for this discussion.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I'm also an old dog (or maybe more appropriately, an old hippo) of around the same age. I also am always open to new tricks.

... such as hippos being able to fly!

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/animals/a61510373/study-says-hippos-can-fly-briefly/

I hope I can start flying in a linux phone! ... or at least something non-Android and non-iOS.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Maybe that other thread ( https://xdaforums.com/t/linux-smartphones-wannabe-sub-forum.4561761/ ) would be a good place for this ... ???

Or perhaps a new thread?

What's the consensus?
[Magisk] BillGoss:
If the discussion is about switching to a Linux phone, then yes. If we're also going to discuss running Linux on an Android phone (without Android) then it's @ethical_haquer 's call.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
I'm open to both discussions.

So, yes, let's see what @ethical_haquer says.
[Magisk] ethical_haquer:
@HippoMan, @BillGoss

Discussions about Linux-first phones and discussions about running Linux on Android phones can go on my Linux Smartphones thread. (the Fairphone, an Android phone, is listed under Devices there)

This discussion can continue there.
[Magisk] HippoMan:
Quoted from the Play Integrity thread ...

I don't believe that the Googlefrinchians care one way or the other about whether or not we are discreet about bypassing their integrity checks. We modders make up no more than 0.1 percent of Android users, and we are probably not even on their radar. They have other fish to fry which have nothing to do with what we modders might want or do. There are no doubt individual Googlefrinchian employees who sympathize with us, but I seriously doubt that these employees have any affect on the decisions made by Googlefrinchian management and stockholders.

Yes, Googlefrinchia doesn't want to prevent rooting, per se. Pretty much all they want to do in this regard is cater to their paying clients, and that's not us; rather, these paying clients are ad purchasers and app developers, including "banking app" developers.

Rooting and modding are allowed, but the Googlefrinchians are doing more and more to make sure that the app-developer clients are able to *correctly* and *accurately* determine the rooted/modded state of Android devices, because more and more of these paying-client developers want to know this.

Over time, more and more developers are crippling or totally disabling their apps on devices that are not shown to have "integrity" (per the Googlefrinchian definition), and this set of developers now keeps growing to contain non-"banking"-app developers, such as those who develop the Pokemon Go and McDonalds apps, to name just two out of a continually growing list of such developers. Furthermore, an increasing number of these developers are also using their own methods of detecting rooting and modding which even go beyond the official Googlefrinchian Integrity checking.

But also, there are one and maybe more cases where the Googlefrinchians themselves are now indeed crippling their own offered functionality in response to Integrity-check results that show modding/rooting. RCS is one example of this.

In general, however, it's irrelevant whether the Googlefrinchians themselves are wanting to help or hinder us modders, or whether or not they even pay attention to us at all. Because of what developers themselves are doing with regard to Integrity checks, Android keeps getting more and more crippled for every-day use for modders/rooters, and bypassing these crippling effects is getting more and more complicated and difficult as time goes on as the Googlefrinchians continue to cater to these paying-client developers who themselves also keep increasing their anti-rooting/anti-modding efforts.

I doubt that this trend is ever going to reverse.
[Magisk] flyoffacliff:
What the hell is "Googlefrinchians"? I googled it (no pun intended) and it just comes up with a couple of these threads.
[Magisk] lpedia:
Probably coined from "Golgafrinchians", who feature in The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy series by Douglas Adams.

I don't know who started it, but someone - possibly @HippoMan or @pndwal - began using the term "Googlefrinchians" (to mean Google and company) in this and related threads, and it has caught on.