yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch HD General] leoni1980:
For a kick-off jailbreaking is NOT ILLEGAL.

Upgrading a handset to Windows Mobile 6 when it never received an upgrade higher than, say WM5? Now THAT'S shady territory, and territory I'm sure most of us have trodden in our time - so enough of the jailbreaking-will-get-us imprisoned-think-of-the-children BS.

The only people who lose out with jailbreaking are the poor O2 customers who are fed misinformation about roaming problems and suchlike which make them feel that they shouldn't jailbreak, and lose out on some great free software and mods. Should an iPhone suffer a momentous crash or breakdown it's easy enough to restore it to factory settings and wipe any evidence of jailbreaking, even if you can't see the screen, so warranty isn't such a problem either.

You can buy a brand new Iphone 3G with a receipt from the o2 shop here in the UK for £349 and the newest unlock chips (about £10 on Ebay) work fine. I've been using mine now for 3 months with very few issues on the T-Mobile network.

On the whole it is clear that for now many people will never be happy with anything other than Windows Mobile: some people just like to use those stick things to drag slider bars to move windows, and some people like editing Excel documents on 4 inch screens. Personally I expect that if Excel or word editing on the move were something I ever had to do then I'd have a briefcase and I'm sure I would therefore have the space to carry a £200 EEE PC.

I got into Windows Mobile in an era when these devices were the most powerful multimedia phones available for music and video and the web. Now windows mobile devices are starting to lose ground badly in this field and for those whose main prerogative for owning a Windows Mobile device five years ago was multimedia there are better devices out there.

When a 2 year old Nokia and a 4 year old PDA outperforms a £600 state of the art multimedia monster like the Touch HD at video playback I wonder if companies like HTC have really got a grasp on the market and its expectations.

I respect those who get a lot of fulfilment out of devices like the Touch HD - there is no doubt that it is an interesting device; but I wonder how much more desirable it would be if it packed Android, the Android Market and OpenOffice. Windows Mobile it seems is becoming a bit of a bugbear and it is only a matter of time I feel before Microsoft get a bit of an electric shock up the bottom.

The consensus here is that Windows Mobile wins out for the corporate user and for those set on pure freedom when it comes to tweaking their OS.

This is all there with Android - a free and open OS with an App Store-esque world of add-ons and tweaks. It's only a matter of time I feel before all the benefits of Windows Mobile are lost to all parties, whether they love or hate the iPhone, as the Android modding scene burgeons.
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
I meant sharing music from whatever computer to different devices. I was referring to when the other posting was saying about just grabbing music. They have shops in Asia that you can pop in and just grab some music from your new "friends" computer.
[Touch HD General] scotchua:
Warning

I just want to stop this before it gets out of hand. I see a lot of hostility here, if it doesn't stop i will be closing this thread. This site is for development and discussion. If you want to pick fights, please go elsewhere. Remember that it is okay for two reasonable people to come to different conclusions based on the same information.

Continued fighting may result in some all expenses paid trips to banville, please keep it clean.
[Touch HD General] kevwright:
But why do you even think I am trying to make you buy an iPhone?

Kev
[Touch HD General] kevwright:
Err, what does this relate to?

Kev
[Touch HD General] kevwright:
OK, warning taken, although as the starter and one of the main contributors to the thread, I don't really see or feel the same hostility.

I think an issue is with people only reading the last few messages and jumping in.

If on the other hand you have me in mind for the warning, please let me know here or via PM.

Kev
[Touch HD General] SingaporeAirlines:
WHOA !

I come home to all this ?!

I'll add my two cents although it's not very meaningful.

I don't buy into the Apple brand. I find iTunes annoying and imposing. The brand is a bit tacky for me and doesn't reflect the person that I am.

I want a device with a large touchscreen to browse the internet and watch videos with ease - I think the Touch HD is/will be a device that fulfils that need (perhaps with a few patches, tweaks and help from the XDA forum along the way).

I wanted a Windows Mobile device. The ease of using Windows Live Messenger was a big factor as I want to IM on the move.

And a bunch of other factors I'm too tired to mention

Time will tell if my faith in the HD is warranted.... as soon as mobiles.co.uk see fit to delivery it.
[Touch HD General] kevwright:
Good luck, I am sure you will like it, and I regret this thread has made people think that they have to justify their choice, that REALLY was not my intention.

Kev
[Touch HD General] mackaby007:
Don't worry about it Kev. I can see exactly where you're coming fro

and I don't think you're wrong. The problem is I see where everyone else is coming from too and they are not wrong either.

I was a dedicated WM lover above all other devices, but was let down by WM performance despite it's rich feature set and great hardware specs.

I still like WM but won't return to it until it meets my requirements. The iPhone does, but that's just me. The HD does it for others.

Great comments all round from everyone but let it go my friend.
[Touch HD General] leoni1980:
Just on the topic of Live Messenger and IM in general I use Beejive on the Iphone for my Windows Live account.

In order to get over the 'no apps in the background' rule that developers are forced to undertake to get their software in the app store this app keeps you logged in for a designated time through its servers once you hit the home button. It transpires that this is a phenominal solution - never again need I miss a message if my battery goes flat or I lose signal. The program gives you the option to choose how long it keeps you logged in, and of course you can manually log out and tweak the interface. You can even receive push notifications of messages if you're away for a while or keep it running truly in the background (with Backgrounder)

It is available on Windows Mobile as a BETA, though I haven't tried it. I'd be interested to hear if it's any good though.

One of the great advantages of the server keeping you logged in is that once you 'close' the app to do other things no battery is being utilised. I used to stay logged into windows mobile most of the day on my Diamond and N95 and it sucked my battery dry.

I know this is completely off-topic but at least it's relevant to both sides and doesn't flame anybody!

Cheers
[Touch HD General] Super Chimp:
Because it's a very good alternative it seems?
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
An S60 Touch phone? Well it's an alternative to the Touch HD or the Iphone, or at least will be when the first phone's eventually released, but whether it's a good one.. that's very arguable. The way you phrased it, you made it sound like an obvious choice, which it simply isn't.

As far as I can see, if you're interested in the iPhone/Touch HD bracket of phone, then only one or the other will do. Nothing beats WinMo on sheer functionality (yet), and nothing beats the iPhone on the overall user experience. From what I've seen of it, the 5800 and the like fall in that awkward stool in between - not as business savvy as WM, not as polished as the iPhone OS, and likely to suffer from legacy issues through that difficult S60 to Touch transition.
[Touch HD General] Super Chimp:
All good points though I know lots of S60 users who would vigorously disagree with you over the functionality issue.

The 5800 seems specifically designed to take on the iphone, if you look at Mobile Review's review of the 5800 they go into some detail on this issue. I would argue that the 5800 isn't really aimed at the Touch HD & X1 as they are different market segments and that neither should so easily be compared to iphone market wise, especially the X1 that seems in many ways aimed at the business market.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
I've read Eldar's review, I don't really share his enthusiasm though. He rounds it off with the usual dismissal of the iPhone as a toy for the fashion conscious, which suggests (to me at least) that he struggles to see its appeal. Without understanding why people choose the iPhone, you're not in a position to judge how the competition's likely to compare.

"Comes with Music" may be a good selling point for some, and apparently the 5800's going to be quite well priced, but I don't see any other great strengths. S60 is an elderly OS and from the screenshots, it's only partly rehabilitated here.
[Touch HD General] crobs808:
holy cow! that is over $1,000 USD, jeez...who would pay that much for a phone???

they will be down to $300 USD i bet after Christmas
[Touch HD General] antrak:
Hey guys,

I have a question. I am a heavy texting user at the moment and I want to stay with touchscreen devices. I wonder how the HD fares vs the iPhone with texting.

I'm currently using a normal Elf which I use PCM Keyboard on which lets me type at (for my eyes) really fast speeds, often nearing my normal keyboard typing speed.

Hows the iPhone in that regard? Does it match up (or is faster) then winmo programs like PCM? (Which I know have been sliiiightly copied of the iphone... ;))

Thanks a ton,

Antrak
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
The traditional Winmo response to such a question is to point to the wide variety of add-on SIP keyboards available for devices like the Touch HD (and your Elf) and talk about choice. The iphone has one software keyboard, Winmo has many, therefore you're more likely to find the best for you on winmo.

The controversial view you'll hear from most iPhone users, like me, is that the iPhone only needs one keyboard because (unlike the awful default keyboard in winmo) it's actually benefitted from the full consideration of the device and OS manufacturer in designing it, and they've made a considerable effort to produce the best software keyboard. It's well laid out, it's context sensitive in every app, it corrects you before you even know (or care) that you've miskeyed, and it's super fast once you're used to it.

But like I say, that's controversial. Choice and all that. Quantity, not quality.
[Touch HD General] mackaby007:
Welcome!!

Hi Antrak and welcome to xda developers.

IMHO there are 2 types of texters. You have one who uses T9 on regular phones that is dependant on touch feedback, so they can text without looking.

Then you have the texter that is generally a very PC literate person who spends much time on-line via computer or smartphone/PDA etc, would rather retain the use of full qwerty keyboard.

I've had the HTC Athena and the HTC Universal and these two devices I must say where the best I encountered and became my benchmarks for judging other software keyboards.

Despite having used the best software keyboard there is for WM (we even had Teksoft make us our own keybard software for our custom ROMs - Athena Project). That was a brilliant bit of software and one of my musts when rebuilding a WM device! But I swore by Tengo keyboard until I learned about Teksoft. And then there's the HTC Universal. I still think that was the best small/mobile keyboard to date!

But on the software side of things, after you have leRnt the feel of the software and it's features etc, Nothing has even come close to the iPhone keyboard, wether using thumbs as the smaller fingered have achieved with great styping speeds and the one-finger touch typist like myself, who find typing with this keyboard so comfortable compared to other mobil phone keyboards, that I can be bothered, when tired, to write such a lengthy reply to such a simple question.....because it's that easy with the iPhone keyboard...it's been well thoughtout, designed and implemented, wether in small portrait mode or slightly more comfortable Landscape mode.

Hope that answers your question.

Sorry about the long post people, but given the nature and title if this thread, I believed it to be not only relevant, but might help us all get back on track, as I was learning much from all you and it does one good to see others points of views and what their requirements and definition of a smartphone is.

Sorry if there are spelling mistakes, but typing on this thing takes pkaceso fast that I rarely look back at what I've written.
[Touch HD General] antrak:
Righto, thanks.

Just ordered myself an HD, should arrive in about 2 days I hope.

I think it'll do better for me then the iPhone, since I'm more of a business orientated user aswell.

And heck, I'm used to typing lengthy emails on my small and cute Elf so the HD cant be ''that'' bad. :P

I'm paying for this on the company tab so I better stick with winmo devices before the IT guys start hitting me with huge ''IloveGates'' balloon bats.

Compliments to the topicposter for giving such a great view!

Antrak
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
How are you judging the HD on a golf course when your's hasn't come yet? I am just curious. Sometimes you come off as too authoritive for a man that doesn't have one. If you are talking about other touch phones that has no bearing as those aren't an HD.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
I was refering to my Athena screen. Sorry that confused you.

To be able to come to reasonable conclusion on something without first owning it is what research is all about for me.

To answer your question, there are basically few aspects to consider to judge the suitabibility of a device on the golf course.

1) Battery life. It must be either possible to last the complete round and leave enough for normal use at the end of the round, or have the ability to swap in a spare battery. I need to personally try out HD to know the answer.l

2) Screen brightness outdoor. I am already using a resistive screen currently, and it is not an issue, although it would be nice if brighter. Based on reports so far, HD has the best screen among WM devices. I have no reason to believe that it will let me down on golf course.

3) Availabilty of software. So far, I'm found evidence that there are software in both iPhone as well as winmo platform. However, winmo functionality is far better and more complete. I might not have HD yet, but someone on this forum has already tested MobileGolfScorer on my behalf and posted the screen. I am therefore able to come to a reasonable conclusion that it is going to work.

If I sound a little too authoritative, it may be due to the fact that I was actually an IT/business consultant for very large corporation. My instintive approach for evaluating technology alternative is always the same and follows a proven methodology. Defining user requirement is always an important segment of work we must do. It always requires research on all the alternatives to see how every single aspect of the requriements are met. Invariabley, the alternatives may be meet all the requirements. We sometimes custom design and program the system. Or we might modify existing alternatives which are already closest in meeting the needs. Also, over time, new alternative surface, or requirements shift, so once in a few years we re-do out IT plan. We examine the cost and benefits all over again. The maintenance cost/the degree of fit/the expected business benefits are examined. It does not mean the original choice was a bad choice, but it just mean that you had the best solution at that time. HD is no perfect solution, but is closer to my need at the moment.

Hope this answer your question.

Cheers.
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
Fairenough was just wondering how you were commenting on the quality of an HD. I understand now.

cheers
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Glad you do.;)
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
I would like to quote from a post out of Apple Support Forum itself for anyone doubting that iPhone has reception problem:

QUOTE

hi there,

a couple of days ago, i spoke to a network engineer who is a friend of mine. he installs and adjusts 3G networks all over Germany with one of the large cell tower equipment providers.

now this is what he said:

1- the iPhone 3G has a worse than average antenna. one indicator of this would be the comparatively high SAR value.

2- t-mobile germany forces the phone to stay on 3G very long - sometimes too long (i.e. dropped calls).

3- all that switching back and forth between 2G and 3G when in one spot was a result of a bad signal handling of the iPhone 3G.

4- personally, he said (being a networks engineer) - he keeps 3G switched off when he really needs the phone.

so the bottom line is, according to what he says: the iPhone 3G has difficulties, some of which are due to hardware (bad antenna), some are due to software (bad signal handling), some are due to the network configuration (prioritising 3G), and finally some are due to the 3G standard in general.

my conclusion from that is that i hope apple fixes the problems with the software, especially handovers from 2G to 3G, and I REALLY hope this time they will test this on the 1.9 and 2.1 Mhz networks in Europe.

I still get a lot of dropped calls, but even worse than that is the inability to use the internet in most places, when the iPhone can't decide whether to stay on 2G or switch back to 3G, and then keeps flipping networks.

hope this works out soon - it's a georgeous device apart from the reception.

UNQUOTE

This is from http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1727395

This thread is the fifth one because the other four thread have grown so long that browser takes too long to display the post! This gives us the amount of discussion and magnitude of problem on this issue alone.

I noted that in Australia's Whirlpool forum there are also plenty of discussion and report of "no service", no bar, no bar or other 3G reception related problem.

Everywhere there are attempt to blame the network provider. However it seems to be occuring to every provider carrying iPhone, and the same providers are not having problem with the non iPhone. O2 in UK, AT&T in US, and here in Australia are experiencing similar problems.

Again, not all users are experiencing the problem, but it apppeas that many do, hence the 5 threads (so far, and I think the posts are very active so more threads will no doubt be coming) in the Apple Support forum with the title "iPhone 3G Reception Problems? You're Not Alone - yet again"

Hope this quell the argument that what I experienced in the Telco shop was due to my inexprience, random glitches not related to reception, etc.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
One of the posts from this thread

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1662678

QUOTE

I live in a country and areaa with very solid, high quality 3G coverage and all iPhones I have seen so far have massive problems with dropped and failed calls on the 3G network that no other 3G handsets have.

While I agree that the number of bars say much, "NO SERVICE" says a lot, while ALL other 3G phones happily make and receive calls and don't drop them, calling an iPhone 3G in the same location goes directly to voice mail.

This has nothing to do with marginal 3G networks, not in this country. The problem exists with best 3G coverage available, it only affects iPhones, no other 3G handsets.

Here's an example:

iPhone 1: NO SERVICE

iPhone 2: -106 dBm

iPhone 3: -103 dBm

iPhone 4: NO SERVICE

iPhone 5: -106 dBm

swisscom Field test equipment (Nokia 3G transceiver): -72 dBm

swisscom Field test equipment (Samsung 3G receiver): -74 dBm

swisscom Field test equipment (S-E 3G receiver): -76 dBm

swisscom USB 3G stick, HP Notebook: -71 dBm

swisscom PC-Card (Dell Notebook): -79 dBm

This is inside the swisscom corporate headquarters with certified best possible 3G coverage. (As swisscom strategic partner we have good inside connections at swisscom, so an engineer who tests towers let me watch this test).

UNQUOTE

Okay, enough of talk on the iPhone 3G reception problem from me. You guys can google and do your own research.

Cheers.
[Touch HD General] Super Chimp:
By that mark then one could say that WM was an equally elderly OS?
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
One could, and it is, but still a more capable one that S60 (in this "apple fanboy's" opinion).
[Touch HD General] iamwhoiam:
Great post! Cheers!

http://www.salling.com/clicker/windows/

Salling Clicker is the answer :) WM/iTunes/Powerpoint support
[Touch HD General] donzx6:
Have you a personal vendetta here?

Boinng, don't mean to be rude mate but I believe Steve has called out (quite fairly) issues that would affect him and you seem to be taking it all to heart.

It's only a phone!!!!

Were you aware that Steve was desperate to get an iPhone, but for what he wants, it just doesn't cut it.

Simple. End of.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Read the thread!
[Touch HD General] DANEMAN:
we did but give it a rest you like fruit flavoured phones full stop.
[Touch HD General] donzx6:
I have read the thread Boinng several times, and I do see a lot of goading etc.

Life's too short mate, it's only a phone.

Right...I'm off to my other forum...about toasters
[Touch HD General] nu_D:
There should be an option for T9+numpad.

Not having that option is just plain lunacy.

I don't know what it is, maybe it's a cultural or age divide, but seems like most Americans/Europeans (as far as I can tell) do not know that T9 exists. It's almost as if people have been using their numpads without T9 for the past 8 years or so.

No wonder when QWERTY phone pads came along they flocked to it. I avoid it like the plague because it's damn slower than T9+numpad.

It's a simple matter of physics- less distance to travel with a numpad equals faster times.

Think about it: If I want to type "Hi" I press the same button twice on the numpad and go on. If I want to do that on a QWERTY pad I have to press two different buttons. Which is faster?

Yes, this is a best case scenario, but overall the advantage is along these lines. You end up having to press less buttons and when you compound that with the fact that the buttons you do in fact end up pressing are closer to each other, you have yourself a decided speed advantage.

Apple made a perfect QWERTY pad and backed it up and made it a great experience? GREAT! Now, give me the M'F' option not to use it.

I was seriously contemplating getting the iPhone but man, I need T9. I have been using it for the past 8 years. I don't want to have to "learn" and "adapt" to a new phone.

But ya, for those people who never used T9 and didn't know it existed, I am sure QWERTY is beautiful for them- they don't know any better. Thus, I am sure the Apple keypad is a godsend.

My problem is that I knew T9 existed and used it. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Anyway.

Basic point, Steve IS right about his statement regarding the keypad and Jobs being a douche bag.

Before you go nuts, I think he IS a visionary and does what he does better than anyone. But he is a tad too controlling. I look at him as an overbearing and over controlling boyfriend. He thinks we are all his girlfriends and he wants to tell us what to wear and when to wear it. He is a rich and great boyfriend, but he just needs to relax a little. And let me use F'n T9.
[Touch HD General] Zuber:
No wonder so many people hate him. That 2 timing Son Of A B....... :)

On a more serious note, I just got an email from the ShapeWriter people suggesting they intend to release a beta for winmob and Tablet before year end. I'm looking forward to it.

nu_D, being an experianced T9er, do you think Shapewriter would be able to give T9 a run for it's money ?

If not, I might finally have to start practicing using it. don'y suppose you have any experiance of trying it on a PC (Tablet).

Zuber