yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Touch HD General] donzx6:
This is a very interesting thread.......

It's an "each to their own" situation, and I think this has been called out soooo many times in this thread.

I don't get the iPhone defenders really - there are some very valid points called out against the iPhone and they are either denied or dismissed by the die hard iPhoners.

You can't use one argument to bolster your case and then use a contradicting argument to destroy someone else's.

Ergo:

"You only tried an iPhone for 2 hours and therefore how could it possibly be objective" against "I've seen the HD and I don't like it"

It comes down to what you want to use the phone for. I suspect that the HD does NOT have as good multimedia capabilities as the iPhone (I haven't tested therefore cannot prove), HOWEVER it's not what I look for in a phone.

To me having the ability to edit documents from work, knock budgets together etc. is a must have which is why the iPhone doesn't cut it (for me).

The Iphone is a very nice piece of hardware and well integrated. I don't believe anyone is challenging that. What it does, it does exceptionally well. It just doesn't do the things I want and no one can challenge that.
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Thanks for your support mate.

Well, even Steven Job himself is still in the state of denial on the signla strength problem Apparently I still maintained that the previous generation iPhone never had signal strength problem. It was just that the number of bar was incorrectly shown!! So guess what? In 2.1, he merely make it "more accurate" but maintaining that there was no problem to solve in the first place!

http://www.techradar.com/news/phone...iphone-crashes-fixed-with-2-1-firmware-464664

I actually was not not aware that there was so much discussion on the signal problem. What started all this was my own experience seeing it at the shop. Then the shop assistant admitted that was a common problem but he knows how to bring it back by a reset. Then I pointed out my experience on this forum as one of the frustration in using iPhone causing me to abandon my plan to acquire it. Then some posts started denying it and said it was only happening on the units with old firmware. That prompted me to try to verify it by more research, and hence the discovery of these documents. I did not purposely dig out stuff to support my case. If anything at all, I was already making up my mind to get an iPhone two days ago, so why would I do that? Why would Ryaninuk do that? Ryaninuk has said that Apple HAD NOT solved the signal problem yet in the 3G Phone, and I believe him. His comment is consistent with the reports I have read, and is consistent with my own 2 hours observation.

Just because some users do not have a particular problem in say Athena does not mean that the rest of the users do not have that problem. Same would go for iPhone.
[Touch HD General] trentend:
You might want to look at Funambol. Specifically using the my.funambol.com portal to sync over the air. It very much does work with googlemail.
[Touch HD General] leoni1980:
Cheers but I don't think that's quite what I'm after.

Syncing Email is't a problem, I want an application where I put my googlemaiil signin info in and it pulls all my googlemail contacts from the server (including address, email and phone) and puts them in the standard contacts list on the phone.

All my Googlemail contacts are set up with photos etc and I don't want to have to do it all manually if I can help it.
[Touch HD General] donbronzi:
I have to say i agree with you pretty much 100%. But i would say that the huge sucess the iphone has enjoyed is down to 3 things

1) The ipod: The best known and most succesful MP3 player in the world.

2) Marketing: Apple have always known how to market there device's in an incredibly effective way, making the trendies want one and almost selling a 'way of life' to the apple heads.

3) UI: Without a doubt the ipod/phone interface is slick intuative etc.

Now, i don't want to sound like a 'fan boy' but have you ever seen a HTC device advertised?

Unlike the apple fan boys, WM lovers don't mind admitting shortcomings, infact the only place i'm seeing bad reviews about the HD is on this forum from hard core tech heads with, may i add unreasonably false expectations.

I have to say i really do love my HD, there are shortcomings that i reckon will be fixed sooner rather than later by people on this very forum. Taken as a whole (device hardware, available software, UC, flexibility and substance) the HTC HD is surely the NO 1 touch handset available today and as we all know it will evolve and it will get better.

I know I know i do sound like a fan boy don't i.......
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
For the record, I can't bear fan boys either. This forum, like any forum dedicated to any form of consumer product, is absolutely teeming with them, and there's almost certainly a little fan boy lurking in the best of us. As soon as you decide on any purchase, choose one particular model over another, most of us would admit to rooting for that product a little. We want to be proved right, don't we?

The thing is, most of us grow out of that after a while. I've had plenty of phones for example, some of them have been great choices that I still feel warm and cuddly about now, and some of them have been lemons. I like to think that I've learnt a little from the lemons - just like Eaglesteve I do a lot of research before I buy.

Eaglesteve - here's a secret - you can't show me an article on Iphone reception I haven't skimmed through already - I didn't buy an iPhone by accident, I chose it very carefully as my next upgrade after the Tytn II. I read up on all its limitations, I noted all the many problems the 3G had on its early firmware, and I continued reading about the subsequent updates and what they brought for some people, and not for others. I also came to understand the environment in which the iPhone is judged - this is a very advanced smartphone that's hit the mass market in a way that no other smartphone has. It's in the hands of thousands, even millions of people who had no idea that touchscreen phones ever existed before. These are people who would have an actual nervous breakdown if made to use a WM device, but hand them an iPhone and they're surfing the internet, emailing their friends, and all most of them can find to complain about is a dodgy 3G signal from time to time - that tells me a hell of a lot. Hand all those millions of users a Touch HD to try for a week instead, and then try to ignore the screams of agony that result - I dare you.

The point is, the iPhone is a mass market, massively successful device, being tested on a daily basis by more people than have probably ever owned any HTC device, let alone one particular model. Where one person might post on a forum to complain about their Touch HD's battery life, for example, 10,000 will post the same about the iPhone. Where a flaw in the Touch HD's bluetooth stack might be mentioned as an aside on Engadget, the same flaw on an Iphone would be front page of the NYT. That's the reality, and you don't have to be a fanboy of any device to see that.

Like the quieter majority of iPhone users I'm not in any way blind to its flaws - Safari crashes a LOT at the moment, it badly needs copy and paste, and I'd love for Apple to be a bit more open with the App store and let the likes of TomTom post their app if they want to - but do I have a problem with the signal? No. Should I ignore my own experience and believe what a louder minority of users say? No, I don't think so, and I don't think that makes me "impossible" or qualifies me as a fanboy either.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Of course I cant speak for the others, but I do not want to be proven right.

If I choose a phone I do it for a reason but I will not try to deny its shortcomings respectively defend them in all possible ways.

Shouldnt this be the way to go?
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Right - so you don't want your chosen product to perform as you expected, and you're not dissapointed when it fails you?
[Touch HD General] mallman:
agreed because denying any issues keeps them from getting fixed.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Who's talking about denying anything?
[Touch HD General] donbronzi:
I think what he's saying is if there is a problem you want it fixed. Iphone users have to wait for official firmware updates etc. WM have to wait for a dev here to fix it! which is better you choose?

Having said that i do agree with you, after taking time to choose a device you want it to perform perfectly but it very rarely does. teething problems are part and parcel of tech. The discovery and subaquent fixing of problems is what makes a great device.
[Touch HD General] rovex:
This sums up a few misconceptions about the iPhone. They have sold about 10 million total between the 2 generations. There have been 18 million Winmos sold this year alone. I had the same argument about the 'unpopular' Symbian series, which has sold 225 million units!

The iPhone is easier to use for the non-technically minded, but it is a limited device as a result.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
I see what you're saying, and I have the highest respect for the devs here who undoubtedly improved my Tytn II over the last year... but, and I know this is controversial, I do think there are limits to what the devs can do. More than a year later, the devs haven't been able to deliver decent video performance on my Tytn II for example, or find a way to improve its GPS performance (nobbled by WM6.1) - always, they've been constrained by what little HTC have given them to work on. More often than not, better and more efficient fixes for things should have come from HTC, but didn't.

With the iPhone on the other hand, there's still a massive jailbreak community adding all manner of features (like copy and paste etc) and allowing much greater customisation - I've not jailbroken yet but I know that's all out there waiting for me when and if I get bored of the phone as it is. Meanwhile, Apple - unlike HTC - are under a MASSIVE spotlight, and any bugs are big news. They're expected to fix them and they do, generally in a pretty reasonable timeframe. For me it seems like the best of both worlds.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Two models of iPhone (essentially the same device), how many different models of Winmo, from how many manufacturers? There's no single model of WM device that even begins to compare to iPhone sales, and that's what makes comparisons so difficult.
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
Number 1 in what regard? As far as the companies selling these things go there is only one area that matters.... sales figures. I have limited knowledge of Winmo but how often are new firmwares going to come out for the HD? I see there is a thread "Would you pay $50 for video drivers?"

Is that the sort of improvements I can look forward to? Will the device be updated and substantially improved by the manufacturer or are we just talking about different wallpapers and whatever. Do older devices typically see free updates that change functionality greatly?

Is it a matter of me being left on my own to sort through home cooked ROM and improve it myself?

I honestly am asking here because I really don't know. Are we waiting for WM 7 before things change? I have no idea what to expect.

I do know when firmware 2.0 came out for the iPhone that took the device to a whole new level. Will we see such a radical change over time with the HD?

The whole name of the game now in my opinion is the race on software development. I have to believe that Apple as we speak are looking at mobile iWork on the phone to fill some gaps. Can the HD which already has great office capabilities somehow be upgraded to play games as well as the iPhone?

My theory is the iPhone which is already a great device for general toys and time wasting, browsing and games can be made into a device that performs office functions more easily than the HD can be made into the ultimate media experience.

In the other thread, people are saying that sure WM has had games for years and plenty of them. Point me to some games out there that compete with say hmmmmm Real football, Spore, GTS world racing.

I don't see games even mentioned on the HTC site. Why is that? I am not a big gamer anyway but some people are.

What is the quality of the games available now and the typical price? No multi-touch is a big killer for games on the HD I would think. Like for a game like Real Football how do you move the player with one finger and kick a shot with the other?

Once the Iphone gets it's new office suite and it is a complete device where does that leave the HD?
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Err, don't forget Navigation software, cut and paste, software keyboards, battery, and signal chipset.

Once those are fixed, I'll be an iPhone die hard fanboy.;)

Don't care anything about game (My sons would violently disagree with me. That's the only thing they care about )
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
What are you referring to and most importantly what does it have to do with my statement

The Apple followers?
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Exactly where it is now.

May I just refer to http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=2922340&postcount=4
[Touch HD General] darthbane2k:
Thank you. thats the beauty of windows mobile, so many different devices from different manufacturers and most importantly from DIFFERENT Network providers. Its all about choice rather than

YOU MUST PAY WHAT APPLE SAY

YOU MUST ACTIVATE AND SYNC VIA ITUNES

YOU MUST ACCEPT ALL LIMITATIONS

YOU MUST BE ON O2 (IN THE UK)
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
It is commonly agreed that those things are trivial to implement. The real question is.... why haven't they? And that is anybodies guess.

I obviously meant software for the current model. Battery and chipset has to wait until next rev. I doubt there will ever be a replaceable battery though.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
None of which has anything to do with my point, which is that no single WM device has sold to as many different people as the iPhone. It's a mass market consumer device, not a niche, and that's why it gets the level of exposure and analysis it has.
[Touch HD General] rovex:
Personally i view the iPhone as being a unit for kids and teens. I view the HD as being more for adults. It also has to be said ive seen quite a few people with iPhones, not one was playing a game on it. Most were using it as an iPod. The accelerometer games are almost impossible to play in a car or bus, as are most of the touch functions they hold so dear.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Of course not. What do you expect?

If someone offers t-shirts in ten colors, he will usually always sell each type in smaller rates than one who is offering just one-type-for-all.

You are obviously trying to sell us here an actual advantage of Windows Mobile as disadvantage but advantage of Apple. You complain about fanboys but behave and argue exactly like one, what should this make us think?

Sure its a mass market consumer article, but after all the hype and marketing this was rather to be expected. I think nobody tried to argue Apple wouldnt be great in creating hypes and mobilising its community aka. fanboys.
[Touch HD General] rovex:
Or its the jack of all (well some) trades and the master of none.

As with symbian most winmos are pretty much the same, they look different but have the same basic capability and can run most of the same programs, its not hard to view them as the same device.

Take the N95. It got all the symbian attention, but actually its no better than any other 320x240 screened symbian, it can run the same pograms and has the same functions, its just got a bigger screen and a slide.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Perhaps you've forgotten (I did quote your post for convenience) but when I said that most people wanted to be proved right about their product choices, you said:

So what does that mean? It sounds noble and everything, but if you don't want your choice of product to be the best one (for you at least) what are you expecting from it exactly?

Do you get a lot of them around here? I don't see any. It seems to be just a cute way to dismiss people with a different point of view to your own, but maybe that's just me.
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
There are 6 billion potential consumers or so on the planet. The iPhone can cater to 95% of them. The HD has appeal for business users. This limits you to whatever percentage you think that is out of the total 6 billion. The average person doesn't know the capabilities of the HD or that such stuff ever existed because they don't have any need for it.

Some people have said that the iPhone is just another Apple niche product but the market they are aiming it was way bigger. The way I see it the HD is much more a niche product.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
There is never a best one. Each device has backdraws.

The point I was making is that I do not need confirmation for a product I bought and can very well notice and accept any flaws it have and dont want to be proven right. The point I cannot accept if someone tries to bash and praise at the same time its own product - both with invalíd arguments.

We should look a little bit further than just here and then it will not take too much time to encounter the first who dismisses all valid criticism but actually bashes the non-Apple product with weirdest arguments.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
You're missing the point completely, I'm saying the fact that they have one model being judged by millions of largely non-techie users is a massive DISADVANTAGE for Apple when people compare the iphone to their choice of WM device, because if you do a google for (as an example) "poor iphone signal" you're going to get thousands of results. If you google for "poor Touch HD signal" you'll get many less - perhaps even none - but then only a relative handful of people own one, and they tend to be more techy and self-reliant users anyway.

Us being who, members of XDA-devs?

But I'm a member of XDA-devs.

Oh, I get it, you mean members of this forum that are purposefully anti-Iphone. The WM fanboys. I understand. Well I don't know, what do you want to think?
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Says who?

No, it has appeal to anyone who wants to make more than being in a defined cage with restrictions at each end.

The Apple will certainly suit an average user but there the typical Nokia or Samsung does just as well.

Apple targets a smartphone market but does not offer the features needed there.
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
Maybe we should just limit ourselves to discussing the pros and cons of each phone as we were and stay away from the heavier stuff?
[Touch HD General] rovex:
You have to view the iPhone as a package. As such Apples policies means it is more niche market.

Its network limited, instantly alienating those with loyalities and bonuses built up on other networks, sure the HD is limited to Orange in the UK, but only until the new year, and it can be bought SIM free. It requires iTunes, bang goes linux, and you must have a PC. It doesn't d microsoft office or have the necessary productivity software, there goes the business market (a BIG market). Its expensive (more so than the HD), that limits its appeal for the less well off. No MMS or video calling, thats a killer for almost everyone i know.

I know a lot of people who got one and now regret it. Most wish they had got an iPod touch instead and a different phone.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Apparently because thousands of people already got disappointed.

How long is the Touch HD available? And maybe also because its signal is much better.

Search for Code Red in terms of Apache and compare it to Code Red in terms of IIS. What does this tell us?

Those looking at the Apple phone in an objective but critical way.

So basically whats your point?
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
If they have jumped into the band wagon doing the homework first, yes. I almost made the mistake of getting it too. I would have been bitter disappointed if I did not do the homework.

But, that does not mean that EVERYONE will be disappointed. It suits some people. It just does not suit me, that's all.

It is clear that some people who deny they are fanboy are true fanboy who would not be able to face the truth.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
True, true and true.
[Touch HD General] rovex:
The iPhone has an image as a 'wow' device, and its a sad fact that most people buy stuff on how good it looks or how popular it is. It doesn't matter how bad it actually may be. Few actually do their homework., they just make assumptions. This is proved by the countless thousands who bought both the iPhone and the PS3 on the day they were launched, even queueing up outside the shops at midnight. Those type of people are mad.
[Touch HD General] Boinng:
Touch HD still in the post? :)
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
I also remember how even PS1 caused a big worldwide stir many years ago. Even my CEO talked about it during the global management meeting in Chicago. It was to be the earth changing device, bla bla bla.

Many would no doubt look back in years to come and realise how silly they were.
[Touch HD General] ryaninuk:
You been watching the sales figures? RIM is now number two. so there are a few people agreeing here. Apple has already manufactured 40 million iPhones in anticipation of the demand.

Anyway I asked a few questions earlier that seemed to be ignored. What kind of road map does HTC usually use for their products? Are they putting more time in to the HD now and going to be offering nice updates? Is HTC going to improve my device or am I now on my own using cooked up ROM?

Have they moved onto the next phone and will now forget this one?

From what i have been reading it seems that their approach is to consider the HD "finished" and we may get an update for video drivers or other things that need fixing. Is that an accurate assessment?

What kind of games are available? Are we talking FPS, RPG and sports with good graphics or are we talking minefield and other such mundane affairs? I looked at the games and software thread and there was a short list of games and like 25% of them didn't work right or weren't working enough to play.

Let's talk about what the HD can do. I know what the iPhone does and would be grateful to learn more about the possibilities of the HD.
[Touch HD General] drzoid:
Can you please provide a source? Also number two where? Compared to what? You know what one says about statistics.

First of all, it is a phone respectively PDA and not a console. Nonetheless there are thousand of games available for Windows Mobile, whether you like them will be your personal preference, but again it isnt a competitor for PSP.

Can do in terms of what? Its technical specifications are well known. What would you need to know?
[Touch HD General] Insaneboy:
For one there are lots of old real Windows games that imo are way better than any 3D good looking game you can come up with today.

Also there're Dos emulators for classics, GBA emulator, NES emulator, PS1 emulator, let's see the iPhone do that. :p
[Touch HD General] eaglesteve:
Okay Ryan,

HD, what it can do that iPhone can't:

1) It has better battery. Last longer. Also you can swap in a spare battery

2) You can cut and paste

3) You have better software keyboard, both built in as well as from third party. HD's built-in keyboard include full QWERTY, compact QWERTY, Phone keypad, Multi tab, T9, Handwriting recognition. I will be adding Tengo later. It gives people choices.

4) It has a GPS software. Mine has Tom Tom coming as a package. I'm free to move to iGO, Navigon 7 and many other fabulous software. It gives people choices.

5) It has word processing (which of course requires cut and paste), excel, and powerpoint. I can also use SoftMaker which gives 100% functionality of desktop office software. It gives people choices. I can read email attachment, jokes etc that comes in the form of powerpoint from my friends even if I do not use it for work.

6) It has better signal strength, which you already know.

There are many other differentiating factors but these are what matters to me personally. Others could add to the list.

Will sign off now. It's way past mid night here. Have a golf game tomorrow morning so can't stay up too late.