yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] Chainfire:
I have actually thought up a complete and very powerful and elaborate (and open!) system for repo's, automatic updates, mirrors, etc etc. There was a plan on the table a while ago to migrate the DeviceUpdate application into this.

However, unfortunately I cannot at this time be 'involved' in such a thing (though believe me I want to) which is why it didn't happen.

Still the big point is, and once again I'm not trying to bash anyone here, that everybody is building and building instead of designing, and from the various authors I have now spoken to I believe neither of the systems is even remotely mature enough (in system design, not talking about the application itself) to ever be able to rise to the next level.

I've heard such varied excuses as "I dont know how to do this", "this is too difficult for me", "Im actually not a programmer", etc.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that we need a single open system that can do pretty much everything we want from such a system. However, I sincerely doubt that any of the current 'appstore' authors can pull it off. Aside from the backend systems, there's also the legal stuff and whatnot that I feel is not looked at well enough, nor the wants and needs of the commercial developers you would ultimately want in there as well to make it a success.

Again, it is not my intent to bash anybody, but that is how I feel about it and as said I have spoken to various of the authors. Some of you my feel I'm being an arrogant ***** here, though, and I understand if you do, however, lets not make 100 replies to this post that say nothing but that, that serves nobody.

All in all I have a general feeling that none of the authors has the expertise to do these things (yet), and the systems are generally built around 'hey look at this cool app and how nice it looks' instead of focusing on the background system and making sure _that_ is sound and provides for all the needed things. That is not how you build systems. At the moment, however, IMHO, AppToDate is still the best for program updates and DeviceUpdate has the best made 'repo' system.

And even though I don't have much love for AppToDate (or it's author) itself, it is the only one I would consider using for a real product at this time.

A fight for dominance at this point is absurd, as neither of these systems, IMHO, will 'break through'.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] digitaldon37:
I would agree that a focus should be made on the back end. I've tried gecko, apptodate, pocket program manager, device update, and even wrote one that uses "pocketfreewarepc.net" as its back-end (still working with the site owner to release this) - all have their strengths and weaknesses but none of them provide a "one stop shop" solution.

I think what has been missing is to identify who the end users are and what they need - this rolls up into a set of requirements.

For example, I buy and download apps from a variety of sources. It would be nice if I could browse one location. Also, it would be nice if I knew when programs that I had bought or downloaded had any updates available. I would also like a way to track registration keys for the software that I bought, though I wouldn't want to keep that information online. And it's got to be easy to use that someone who doesn't have an XDA account can use.

I don't have an iPhone or have much knowledge about their App Store, but I bet it meets most if not all of my requirements that I listed above.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] joel2009:
I'm sorry to be about to rape this page, please just hang with me :D

I completelty agree that a union on the subject is a good idea, the problem becomes ....how will we go about it.

Just read my below post and then give me your responses and i will do my best to respond to them.

PS when i rant at the end at being pissed off at some developers... it has nothing to do with anyone in this thread.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
I honestly found your post incoherent but the very last sentencesummed it all up. I think Gecko should be simpleenough for those idiots who can't use Google (and then whine in the comments at freewarepocketpc but customizable in every aspect.

As for Chainfire's advice, I'll be honest. We. Are. Not. Apple.

We don't have a budget, time or skills to reinvent the wheel and certainly won't replicate the app store, but I think you're seriously underestimating us and expecting perfection or whatever. It's just a project, chill down and let it be.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] Chainfire:
If you think I am referring to Apple you are completely mistaken. A system like I would envision it is fundamentally different than Apple's. Just saying that shows you do not understand my point, at all. You are the one mentioning a fight for dominance... do not misunderstand me, I think what several people are doing in this area are great things and/or ideas, but none really has any merit to claim dominance over any of the others at this stage.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] joel2009:
gimme a break i was typing in the middle of a tornado :D

I made a couple of points about an overview i beleive in, but mainly my deal is we could develop a kick as program, but the program is based around content and we developers to back us. It was more of a complaint to them not getting on the ball with things.

I know its new and it takes time, but jump on it developers! This is your chance to shape how your programs are featured, for better or worse.

You can embrace a new system and shape it as your own, or you can let these peices or software turn into torrent networks and "limewire" programs distributing all kinds of files with you names attached to them.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] joel2009:
@chainfire

Not sure if you were talking to me or nick, just clearing up _I_ brought up the comparison with apple. i was making a comparison to say apple has something people think is brilliant, when we could do things that could put apple to shame, we need developers support to do so thoug
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] Chainfire:
edit: @joel

I wasnt talking at you. But i will agree on that Apple can be put to shame with a decent system. After all, Apple's sytem isn't that great at all, and well, it's Apple. They are nothing if not deliberately limiting. "It works" is not a solution, it's an excuse.

btw grats on your 888th post ;p (number freaks, yeah!)
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] Chainfire:
@acrosser

you make some good points, and with most of them i completely agree. An AppToDate style XML system (though with choice between hosted for you and host yourself and a whole ****load of more elaborate options with sane defaults) would be best. And you can actually combine the merits of all three and even keep compatibility. It's all just a matter of how you present the data to an application that connect to the servers -- if you have the right data, it shouldn't be a problem.

The point is, you shouldn't even want that compatibility layer. There should be decided on a single base that takes pretty much everything into account, and all apps updated henceforth should support it.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] tilleke:
I am quite new to Windows Mobile although I have been developing for other platforms for quite some time. I am also quite new to XDA (I still have to read how it all got started - heck I don't even know who founded it and when!) but I do know it has a "name" ("reference) what concerns Windows Mobile. There might be other sites as well, but still, I believe XDA is the "name in the game".

I tend also to agree with what has been suggested i.e. that various Client/Frontend-applications such as Gecko, DeviceUpdate, AppToDate and other (and others to come) need to "fetch" their data from various "backends" by using the same method. This method should be discussed and agreed upon by developers and hosting-providers in order to outline a guideline (a "standard") similar to an API.

However, in order to get this to work, I think we need some kind of "central" which gathers all information required and to which the clients and the hosting-providers can "talk to" to exchange information. Here, I believe XDA could become the crucial "central" although I don't know if XDA has the bandwidth and resources required (or more importantly: the wish to participate), but if XDA became the "central", then developers could inform XDA (how yet to be defined) about a new application/an update etc. XDA would somehow provide the developer with a link where to upload the new application based upon hosting-providers available (who in turn "talk" to XDA). XDA somehow would inform other hosting-providers about the new/updates application and start some kind of "mechanism" which would trigger exchange of data among various hosting-providers.

I could elaborate this further but I think you understand what I mean. Heck, one could even include some kind of peer-to-peer system (Torrent for instance). I know this would require a lot of collaboration and free (unbillable) time to implement and may be far too optimistic but I am just shooting my two cents.

rgds,

/Tilleke
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
Really gotta go, NOW!, but I can't wait to correct myself (what I meant is that Chainfire might expect something from a team of top notch devs working in an office, more on that tonight)

BYE!
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] joel2009:
This kind of touches on my next suggestion,

Everyone may have another idea for how they want to display or crunch the data, but we may be able to work on a database that everyone accesses.

I have to go right now, but i'll talk about it more later tonght.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] DarkAngelFR:
Hello here!

Here is a new thing I've found here : http://www.windowsmobiletraining.com/Connection/forums/t/2429.aspx

-> http://appstore.pocketgear.com/winmo/

Any news on the "open source" ? I'd really like to bring my developer experience in this project nico ^^

Would it be possible to have kind of "drawing" of the architecture you will put in place ? (database hosting, replication (still download of a single file?), CAB hosting (if developers want to keep the hosting is it possible?), Screenshots, ...)

I will send you an update of all my apps soon, implemented an AutoUpdate feature using a central server based on the WindowsAzure platform (free, huge, free, really huge, fast and stable....)

Thanks for your great work for the community, I hope you won't loose motivation looking at all the other applications starting to grow up...(Microsoft SkyMarket is coming soon.....)

See Ya'
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
About open source. I've been thinking a lot and I believe the best solution would be an open source method and a closed source application. I won't hide you anything, I plan to sell Gecko as a service to cellphone companies (co-branding, etc...) and I don't want other developers to work for free while I gather the big bucks (not quite the right words!). I don't mind paying other developers for small contributions, but the client won't be open source.

My model? A free, simple open source submission and hosting system anyone can contribute to and a free, closed source client with a price only for companies (like carriers). While the client will be closed source, the methods used will be freely available to anyone asking for them. I made some great code bits that I can't wait to share with the community that helped me in the first place.

I think using Azure is a great idea, but I won't. I want to be completely independent and Azure might also be slightly hard to sell to other users (remember the common standard thing?). Also, if they shut down Azure, we are in trouble!

It's hard to explain exactly what I mean so I'll just plug my tablet and draw a little something once I get back home.

As for motivation, don't even think about it. I'm learning a crapload of stuff (SQL, techniques, code formatting...), making money (AdSense, donations, a possible contract), making new contacts (you, Ay, 9khil, Niiko...) all while doing what I love. If I ever reach 5000$ a year, I won't even bother looking for a job.

Thanks for your help too, I'm glad to have you around :)

UPDATE: Lol, PocketGear
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] Ather:
Double LOL at them :D
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] joel2009:
Pocket gear has got to be kidding....

"1000 plus developers"

1000 plus developers and they give us a mobile website version of pocketgear.com

Jesus christ is that a lame excuse of an app store.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] joel2009:
I think we all out to find a way to create a common database system that we can all access with different clients in short.... how does everyone feel about that?

Back to comparing things to internet browsers... it would be like creating the internet which is accessible by many different types of browsers. That way everyone can do as they please while having access to one database system and developers don't have to submit there software to every repository out there.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] DarkAngelFR:
Sorry I didn't tested before posting here........Just a link added to launch IE (not the default browser??) with a link to their mobile website.....shame :eek:
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] DarkAngelFR:
Yup, I think the best "AppStore like" application should :

- run on many device (gecko is clearly on this)

- be easy for developers to "publish" their app/updates (gecko is also nice for this, team for validation of applications may increase with time but it is already easy to use for developers, maybe a small improvement should be that "known developers" can submit their own applications (and updates) faster than today...)

- provide a way for developers to "auto-update" their applications easy and fast and technology independent (I mean "out of the gecko app")...here I'm not really sure that gecko is already fine but for sure it will come (webservice? internal library to access gecko DB?... command line mode seems to be a little "dirty" for me (and this only my opinion ;) )

- be fast to get : new(and recently updated) applications, update of our already setup applications, ease of search (gecko will for sure be great on this :D)

Nico correct me if I'm wrong on this :(
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] DarkAngelFR:
No problem for me, this mean every developers should provide their own "Gecko Interface" to the central repository....sounds great!

No problem on this I can only wish you good luck!! :D

I don't think Azure will shut down without any replacement (it's not how they are working now) but I understand your views and I hope you will provide same kind of easy access to the central Gecko data for developers!

^^ will wait for this one!! ^^

Always nice to learn things and get money at the same time ^^ that's my everyday job :rolleyes:

Welcome ;)
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
IFor the database, I'd make the records accessible to all but devs should alse be able to make their own baed on thesamedata. Not everyone uses SQLite. I convertfrom CSV to SQL.

Update: Coffee and Diamond keyboard
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] Ather:
says it all :D
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] DarkAngelFR:
For developers best should be a library (.dll, easy to use in any languages (almost)), so they won't have to know the structure of data, queries, ... This is only "my" point of view ;)

Scary :eek: :eek:
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] kmax12:
What is the status on development? A week or so ago there was a ton a talk about how we should move forward in this app. Is anything being done? Can we expect another release of Gecko anytime soon?

Keep up the enthusiasm,

kmax12
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
Yes! There's a lot being done even i my laptop is gone. Add graphics, minimal skinning, options, speed andstability to the growing list of features.

I made a tab-based interface and slowly add support for skinning. The default graphics are butt-ugly but anyone can effortlessly make a skin. There is only 2 image sets for all resolutions and small text file with settings.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] acrosser:
As a fellow developer, in my opinion I have to disagree with the idea of requiring the developer to import a DLL or any type of library into their program. I think to attract the highest number of developers and applications you should require the least amount of effort from them. Submitting a web form is fine because everyone can easily do that.

FYI -- The developer of DeviceUpdate has been kind enough to add support for AppToDate in his program. When you submit the DeviceUpdate "New version" web form you can specify your AppToDate XML file, and it automatically modifies your XML file and sends it back to you (I know it's not too hard to manually edit an XML file in a text editor, but at least it's a good token gesture on DeviceUpdate's author's part).

Because DeviceUpdate and Gecko both use web form submissions as their method of application update, it seems possible to join these two forms into one. Or maybe the DeviceUpdate form could send Gecko an "app update" notification and vice versa.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] l3v5y:
I think the DLL idea was for access to the Gecko database (so frontends other than Gecko can access the backend), not for submitting data.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
A DLL is not a bad idea, but the system is so simple it's not really necessary.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] DarkAngelFR:
Yep the idea of a dll is just to provide developers easy access to the gecko db system : doing something like

if (gecko.UpdateAvailable)
{
if(AskUserForUpdate(gecko.CurrentVersion, gecko.LatestVersion, gecko.ChangeLog))
gecko.DoUpdate();
}

Just an idea.....the "gecko." would be the dll and automatically check for updates in gecko db (central or local, depends on config for example)...

The submission should stay on the webform for sure!

This would allow developers to integrate gecko in 5 minutes.....Just my point of view! As nico said : gecko db is so easy that should be implemented directly (need one or two dlls to do it and to write small queries against the db...the dll idea is just to help developers to do it...)

Sorry if I was misunderstood :rolleyes:
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] pmow:
Why must there be only one database? Publish an open spec of your database so that others can make 3rd party databases to add to their searches. This way, users will actually stick around even after Yahoo buys you out for $2M.

Many grassroots projects are born on the backs of the users they are servicing, and this should be no different. Voting up and down download links, applications, and even publishers should be considered. This "social" aspect makes managing the content easy. This way, you don't have to beg people to add anything.

Right now it seems the few volunteers want to take on UI design, database architecture, an endpoint client, advertising, and data entry. If you designed the structure of the database(s), you now wouldn't have to worry about it. Creating a database comes next, and then creating a client after that. Congrats, you can now launch. You can now concentrate on other things like populating this database, securing funding, branding, etc. If you are more comfortable programming, that is fine. Remember, there always needs to be communication and person(s) coordinating the project.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
I'm planning something even more simple based on AppToDate and "I don't know how I would do it otherwise". I will host small HTML or txt files named as the AppID in a folder on the main server. These files should contain the application version. To check if the application is up to date, simply check that file and compare it to the current version. This way, no need to download the whole database everytime to check for updates.

I'm putting a lot of thinking in the database system. SQLite is fast and powerful for searching, but only local (on device) databases are supported. This is great for offline browsing (download enqueuing?) and to save data charges, but it means the DB has to be updated frequently to get the latest information.

Gecko 3.2 might introduce a smaller database with shortened fields. The URL field will be completely removed. Instead, it will look for http://server.com/.../apps/--AppID--.cab. This allows for dynamic server selection (multiple mirrors!).

Anyone wants to donate some server space to implement this?
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] acrosser:
Ahh I see... thanks for correcting me on this!
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] acrosser:
I can donate some server space for this. I have over 350GB free space and 15,000GB monthly bandwidth, so free space and bandwidth shouldn't be an issue. Nico you can PM me if you would like details.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
Great! I'll PM you!
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
Things are going really well!

I got my laptop back and I could finally work on Gecko. The downloader is now much, much faster and everything around it was improved. The info form has some new fields and will see many other improvements this week. I'll also work on server distribution and maybe implement a basic command line for batch installs (device restoration!).

I'll keep you updated ;)
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] l3v5y:
A batch install system would be great!

It could be run from autorun, or via UC and make things so much simpler! :)

Also, glad to hear that you can now get things rolling again!
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
Yep, and it's one of the things it had to do to deserve the "App Manager" suffix :D

With ShellAndWait, a code snippet from another user, I can launch wceload.exe (the cab installer) and wait 'till it's done before running more commands. With arguments such as -s (silent), it could be a really useful tool, just like apt-get in the terminal. It could load command files that would install all the programs and maybe even tweak the registry. There's a blank form linked to "Command line" in the menu right now. It will be there in 3.2 :)

Many stuff was changed yesterday and I improved the loading bar when downloading files. No more flashing, just a nice, working loading bar. I also added a cancel button there and changed it so the UI is not frozen until the end of the download.

I also learned there is a version of Inkscape for Windows (I'm too lazy to reinstall Ubuntu) so I'll work on a small badge for developers to put on their websites.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
I'm thinking about making a small badge for developers to put on their download page.

Comments/ideas?
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] freaksey:
just want to know.. does this now also searches for updates? (for my installed apps)
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] joel2009:
app to date support comes from a snipet of code inside each application, not from gecko.... so as of yet, no.
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
But I don't plan to make it work that way. I prefer something that doesn't require any modification from the developer's part. The concept will be similar, but managed by us.

At this very moment I'm working on the update system. Needless to say I'm very excited to get this up and running!

I also changed many things with the downloader. It's faster, better, stoppable and shows a nice loading bar!
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] :
I can help
[Windows Mobile Development and Hacking General] N1c0_ds:
Sweet!

I just need a small 88x31 button with "Available on Gecko" or something similar.

Great job on PointUI 2, by the way!