yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] SuckerPunish:
i cant understand if my anti is 3 or 4 its anti roll back is activated or deactivated ?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] rv_biohazard:
If your anti version is 4, anti rollback is enabled on MIUI. Anti 3 ones don't have it.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] rbisschoff:
Hi, I just got an unlocked Note 5, android 8.1.0, Miui stable 9.6.4.0, Rollback 4. Now I am having difficulties installing twrp or Redwolf. It works when I do "fastboot flash antirbpass dummy.img" then after "fastboot flash .img" or "fastboot boot recovery .img" the phone goes from Fastboot to the black screen and hangs with the MI.com scripture.

Any idea how I can get twrp or Redwolf installed as I like to root my device. Thanks a lot.

PS C:\adb> fastboot flash antirbpass dummy.img

target reported max download size of 536870912 bytes

sending 'antirbpass' (8 KB)...

OKAY [ 0.004s]

writing 'antirbpass'...

OKAY [ 0.002s]

finished. total time: 0.013s

PS C:\adb> fastboot boot recovery C:\adb\RedWolf-Unofficial-vince-2.img

cannot load 'recovery': No such file or directory

PS C:\adb> fastboot flash recovery twrp-3.2.3-0-vince.img

target reported max download size of 536870912 bytes

sending 'recovery' (36752 KB)...

OKAY [ 0.805s]

writing 'recovery'...

OKAY [ 0.006s]

finished. total time: 0.819s

PS C:\adb> fastboot boot twrp-3.2.3-0-vince.img

downloading 'boot.img'...

OKAY [ 0.798s]

booting...

OKAY [ 0.137s]

finished. total time: 0.943s
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] SunilSuni:
You have to download twrp recovery image for WHYRED.

Vince is a code name for Redmi 5 plus (Redmi note 5 India) with single rear camera
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] rbisschoff:
great, that worked...thanks now I can flash twrp or redwolf and I was able to change the recovery to Redwolf, then I used Magisk to root.

Question, can I now OTA update to MIU! 10 without losing root or redwolf recovery?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] adliradzif:
Can i revert back to miui 10 latest version from pie custom rom?..is safe to flash thru mi flash?..my device is whyred
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] SunilSuni:
Yes you can revert back

Just flash miui10 fastboot ROM using MiFlash
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] luck2ang:
guys i successfully revert from arb 4 to 3
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] abdullah alotaibi:
how ?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] hungphuthai:
I have tried so many time but I can not do that

My Whyred use MIUI 10, Anti 4, But I can't install twrp

Help me my friend
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] kbsarfaraz:
From 8.7.5 to 9.5.17.0
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] LilBlinx:
Here is public announcement from Xiaomi

[Others] Important Announcement about Updating of Redmi Note 5 Pro/Redmi Note 5
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] ByyAA:
Anyone who tried to unlock, flash TWRP, or a custom ROM, from 9.5.17.0?

Is Global Stable 9.5.17.0 safe?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gonz19:
With fastboot? Or by the updater app? Locked or unlocked bootloader?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] amalrakoff:
He ment that anyone who is on Global Stable 9.5.17.0 tried to unlock the bootloader and tried to flash twrp ?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
I could downgrade from miui 10 public beta to 9 stable via stock recovery.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gonz19:
It's a statement or a question?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] ranggi:
so this meant is the new miui update cant install twrp?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
A fact.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gonz19:
Tell me more, please. So you flashed the zip MIUI 9 stable, but by updater app or fastboot? And with locked or unlocked bootloader?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
Locked bootloader. I flashed the fastboot version of public beta but I hate it. I locked (accident) the bootloader the 360 hours counter reseted...

After that I flashed the stable recovery rom via mi assistant / recovery mode. 3 or 4 times (lol im flashaholic). No problem here.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gonz19:
I know what you mean. I had a Moto g4 plus and I flashed a lot of roms xD. So you flashed by stock recovery... I supposed that it will work also with the updater app since it worked with stock recovery.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Kusie:
That sucks big time Xiaomi.... time to move on from MIUI to custom ROM like RR or Lineage OS? Those are still safe right?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] LhanaSR:
Deleted
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
Yes, with recovery rom. Read my previous post.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] igmonkey:
I am currently on MIUI 10 8.7.5 with unlocked bootloader and TWRP installed. I was planning to move to Lineage once it becomes official. Can I flash lineage normally using TWRP or will my phone hard brick? Please reply.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] n3w0rk:
Nobody knows. And i doubt that anyone wants to test it.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] problemathic:
damn and now im stuck on 9.5.17.0
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Daruwalla:
I intentionally updated to 9.5.17 from custom rom, recovery stayed. Reverted back to 9.5.14 and moved back to custom rom again cause for me MIUI sucks. No issues for hard brick or anything else on both versions. That one report is false, must be that guy did something on it's own.

Can't test China build cause I can't download 1-2gbs of rom with my slow internet. Had two miui roms which I downloaded earlier so thought to test and report back. Hope this helps.

---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

If anyone can upload 8.7.5 on gdrive where I still get better speeds, 1mbps broadband, I can test and report back. I tested both 9.5.17 and 9.5.14, flashed, reverted to custom, flash another miui and reverted to custom, no issues. Typing from that phone running Aosp EX rom.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] igmonkey:
I already have TWRP installed, and running. So I tried fastboot mode, and was able to boot into twrp using fastboot boot twrp.img . So fastboot is also working. Is it safe to flash a aosp based ROM as both fastboot and recovery are working? Does someone has any knowledge regarding this? Please help.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] blitzkid:
Hey @ all

i just got a rn5pro global. i updated my phone to the latest miui 10 8.7.5 my bootloader is still locked. i wait for the unlock now.

can i still flash twrp after unlocking the bootloader?

most important, can i flash the fastboot rom in case my phone gets bricked?

Or is there any way to get it working again?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Daruwalla:
So it's true. Official announcement by Xiaomi.

http://en.miui.com/thread-3156438-1-1.html

Seems like it's done by Google and implemented by Xiaomi now.

Security grab bag

No more OS downgrades—If an attacker steals your phone, Android has several security features in place that will make it more difficult to access your device. It doesn't help matters much if the attacker can just downgrade the operating system to a version that didn't have those protections in place, so with that in mind Android 8.0 introduces "rollback protection" into the Verified Boot process. With rollback protection, Verified Boot will no longer start up an OS that it detects has been downgraded to an earlier version.

Developers (or Android-obsessed journalists) that need to downgrade their device to an older version for testing or checking something can disable this feature, which will trigger the usual slew of boot-up warning messages. Google also says it has "hardened the bootloader unlocking process," which should make it harder for bugs or malicious apps to unlock the bootloader without user approval.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/09/android-8-0-oreo-thoroughly-reviewed/5/#h1
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] igmonkey:
But how can it be disabled?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
Guys...i downgraded miui 10 fastboot public beta to fastboot stable 9 on two different phone and one via recovery. No brick, no bootloop, no permanent death.

9.5.13.0
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] igmonkey:
What was the version of MIUI 10?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gonz19:
do you have the link of the 9.5.13 zip?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] YBS14881:
Does your bootloader unlocked,and do you update through updater app ...

I am on 8.7.5 and locked bootloader, can i revert to 9.5.17 through updater app....
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Alisummer:
Yes

log is something like this:
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Desmanto:
For those who said you are on MIUI 10 and successfully flash to another ROM without bricking, please tell your MIUI 10 version. OP has stated that this affect 8.7.9 and 8.7.10 only. But Xioami officially announce that this start with 8.7.5.

One of the 8.7.5 user in other forum successfully flashback to 9.5.14.0 without knowing about this. Other 8.7.5 user in MIUI forum also stated they still can flash back. But Xiaomi stated it is from 8.7.5. I guess maybe the ROM after 8.7.5. (8.7.9, 8.7.10 and so on). But as usual, the choice is at your hand. Try with your own risk.

I disagree with this move, hope to they disable it; or at least implement it in a proper way without bricking the phone (just reject the flash, without bricking). Need someone to find the way to disable that protection. Or I should consider moving to LOS / RR and never look back waiting for MIUI 10 stable.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
The MiUi 10 version was 8.7.5. Downgraded to 9.5.13.0 without any problem.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] mogamycool:
I downgraded from miui 10 8.7.5 to 9.5.13 without any issue too. and got update to 9.5.17.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] devcon69:
deleted
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] igmonkey:
How did you guys downgraded? Using TWRP or fastboot?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] wipapu:
hi all,

with unlocked , root (magisk), twrp-3.2.1-1-whyred.img after update (using twrp flash) from

miui_HMNote5HMNote5ProGlobal_8.7.5_066aab3bca_8.1.zip to miui_HMNote5HMNote5ProGlobal_8.7.10_ed8e4b5710_8.1.zip

my phone still keeps the twrp

i have not downgrading i am waiting for more news right now.

¿is normal that my phone keeps twrp?

thanks a lot
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] devcon69:
yes it was not implemented on 8.7.5 but dont try to downgrade via twrp. Flash original recovery.img from 8.7.5 and stay with it. Some has downgraded back to miui 9 via updater and they did not brick their device.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
Like me.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] cesarXP:
And like me
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] arvarobert:
Hi guys.

Is this only on Oreo based MiUI10?

I have RN4x with MiUI10 (8.7.9)Android 7.

Should i downgrade or let be as it is?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] n3w0rk:
This affects only Oreo roms.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Incogn:
So im seeing a pattern here, everyone with locked bootloader and stock recovery dont get bricked. Can anyone confirm/deny?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] cesarXP:
Downgraded from 8.7.5 to 9.5.13 with locked bootloader through updater app
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] SynUS13:
I think the problem will be solved when the firmware for the fastboot is released below 8.7.10 or newer.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] viethalong:
What is the version of MIUI 10 on your device ? 8.7.5 or 8.7.10

My device is 8.7.10, i want to downgrade to MIUI 9 by your method, Y or N ? safe ?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] devcon69:
Not safe. Dont try to downgrade by any means please.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] iwantz:
It may be true what your says this,In theory, if indeed bricked it is forced into edl mode,Perhaps the only way is to flashing again via fastboot rom with the same rom version as installed before we downgrade or move to another rom.

And currently we can not prove it or try because fastboot rom from global 8.7.10 or from china 8.7.9 not yet available.

Do not try it, many have experienced the bricked if doing it from global 8.7.10
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] TheRonte:
Hi! I'm on MIUI 10 8.7.5 China Dev (public beta), is it safe to flash Lineage, AEX, etc..? I have unlocked bootloader and stock recovery, if it helps.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] akalos:
Someone with a unlocked bootloader?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] joao_ab3:
Please help me on this. I have redmi note 5 global. I have install the miui10 beta (developer ROM) through update package. I'm currently on 8.7.5 and the system doesn't find any update to it. Are you saying I can't install miui10 stable when they release it?

Explain me like I'm 5 because I have no experience with root or costom ROMs and unlook bootloaders, etc.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] temporarium:
If you've got an unlocked bootloader, why would you stay with MIUI? {Sarcasm}
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] TheDevFreak:
Someone just clarify for me, Are the global versions of the phones not affected? I plan on buying one but if the globals are affected might need to find something else?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] wipapu:
no, i updated from 8.7.5 to 8.7.10 , then now i am with 8.7.10 , my question is if i am blocked on 8.7.10 forever or just will be posible to upgrade with twrp? or may be i will lost twrp too?

sorry for my english
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Alkafer:
Hi everyone. To me, right now, these are a few important topics to know about. Please forgive my English, hope will understand.

1. Will this affect TWRP backups? For example, I have backup of previous ROM, upgrade or try other newer ROM, don't like or something goes wrong and try to turn back by restoring.

2. Will this affect custom ROMs like Xiaomi.EU, miuipro and AOSP based?

Thank you very much, I hope we can understand better all this mess.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] ashishkotnala29:
Hey guys! I just bought the device a few days back. Locked bootloader right now and flashed/updated via updater app to miui 10 v8.7.5 public beta. At first everything was fine and when I checked for updates it used to show me "Weekly" status but now it shows "Top-secret" which basically meant it went to alpha stage. I checked the same on website and now they no longer allow download of miui 10 v8.7.5 for Redmi note 5/pro so maybe that's why it's showing "Top-secret".

Anyways, I want to revert back to stable miui 9 oreo ROM. Can I just use the updater app to do this by manually downloading the OTA ROM? Does this security thing affect miui 10 v8.7.5 too? Xiaomi's announcement includes this version but here I see different comments. Can anyone confirm? I really don't wanna brick my device within a week of buying. I have some custom ROM building plans for this in the future.

Thanks!
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] endva3:
My device is note 5 Global(whyred) bootloader unlocked. 1hour before i have Global beta 8.7.5 with Stock recovery. I flash twrp on 8.7.5--install last stable Global official(9.5.17.0) via TWRP--install lazy flasher. Everything its OK. No bootlop or bricked phone :)

Nie i have latest stable Global with TWRP.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
You can downgrade without any problem.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] ashishkotnala29:
Thanks! So I would downgrade using updater app (only option) this weekend and after unlocking my bootloader won't update to more recent versions of miui for now until this mess clears up but rather try custom ROMs or build one for myself if I get enough time.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] temporarium:
Guys, seriously, let me throw in my two bits for you all to chew on: why would you trust _any_ OEM (Samsung, LG, Sony, Xiaomi, etc.) to build a ROM with the users' best interest at heart? Doesn't make sense. That's why we buy devices that we can unlock, and break free. We should be supporting community ROMs and developers and help them to port features we need. There are lots of open source options out there (LOS, RR, etc.) that don't compromise your data or lock you in under the guise of "stability and security".

Thanks for reading.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
True but at this moment there is no really working gcam port to custom roms. The "stock" custom camera app is a crap.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] akalos:
No I do not yet...
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gingernut78:
Anyone know of we can go from 8.7.10 to custom rom without brick?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] TheDevFreak:
Just wanting a little bit of clarification.

If I get the phone and update it to the latest MIUI when I get it then bind my account for bootloader unlock and wait the 360 hours unlock, twrp and custom rom I should be fine?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] joao_ab3:
I have the 8.5.7 global dev ROM(miui10 beta). The bootloader is locked.

Can I downgrade to miui9 stable through update packages without problem? I really need to know.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] geangd:
Too many information I think we all are lost right now.

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------

Would u guys help with my case?

I have one RNote 5 AI with China 9.5.21 rom, I want to flash global rom, nobody wants to use China rom.

So, it is safe install Global Stable 9.5.14? Will I have problems with anti-rollback?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] RaiderWill:
Too Much Panic Here..

Why All The Panic ? :cool:

All these " What If I ? " questions. :confused:

If you are in Purgatori waiting for permission / approval to unlock your bootloader, just play it safe.. and stay right where you are.. until your 360 hour / 15 day jail sentence has been served.

If you moved up to Beta 10.. I would just stay there until your sentence is served.. then you can root and do whatever you want.. don't take the word of anyone that comments here in this thread about moving back down and it being "Ok" to do without having any issues. when Xiaomi is saying otherwise. It's YOUR DEVICE... and no one in this thread is going to buy you a new one if you F your current one up. :cool:

If you are blessed enough to be released from Purgatori.. and have an unlocked bootloader, you should already have a *CLEAN* backed up copy of MIUI 9 / 10 safely tucked away on your SD-Card that you made immediately after you installed T.W.R.P. 3.2.2-0.

And When I Say *Clean* backup, I mean CLEAN... where you skipped Google Sign-in, Mi-Account Sign-in, and Fingerprint assigning.

You also have a CLEAN copy of your Boot-Image backed up on your SD-Card as well.... RIGHT ? And.. a copy of that backup T.W.R.P. folder with those Pristine backups has also been transfered to your computer as well just in case... for Total Protection against Catastrophic Failure Correct ? :victory:

So... you have NOTHING to fear...

You can flash custom ROM's & Kernels to your heart's content. :cool:
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] luigieg:
I went from 8.7.10 Global Beta to Pixel Experience GSI just now. My phone is fine and Im staying out of MIUI for now.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gingernut78:
Thx for the reply.

Maybe because you only have to flash system.img when installing the Pixel Experiance, Lineage seems to touch vendor files too so I'm a bit cautious.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] joanthanmajh:
What model is your phone?

mine is M1803E7SG

I am currently on 8.7.5 Miui Global and also want to downgrade

i also still have a locked bootloader
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] luigieg:
Not really. I aslo flashed this https://xdaforums.com/redmi-note-5-pro/development/project-treble-redmi-note-5china-global-t3798301 which touches on vendor files because Xiaomi's treble implementation is a bit crappy.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Gingernut78:
One last question without going too off topic.

Is the rom you flashed ready tu run as a daily driver? any important bugs?
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] iwantz:
Please Let me ask you one thing, do you flashing the multirom twrp? Or just boot into the twrp multirom?

If so, what twrp you used before, I'm in 8.7.10 and installed unofficial twrp 3.2.1.3.

Thanks in advance :good:
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
Asked many times. Please read not just post here..
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] fardeenah:
Can we get a. Clear wiki and FAQ sticked in this forum please about this matter.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] joao_ab3:
I presume it has been asked but this topic have more than 80 posts. You could help me with an answer.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Incogn:
And out of those 80 post atleast half are questions that already been asked or answered. Read, search, and then ask, not other way around.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Devanshu_Sharma:
EDL works, if your hard bricked device is recognized by your PC and while flashing Stock ROM via MiFlash Tool it may show timeout. But, here's a simple solution for that which worked for me i.e. after device is recognized by your PC, remove your device and hold power button for 30-45 seconds after that reconnect your phone with usb cable and hit FLASH! & DONE, it will start flashing rom.:good::good:
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] VincentJoshuaET:
Can someone else confirm this? And what Fastboot ROM version did you flash?

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

Has someone tried flashing 9.5.17.0 on the hard bricked devices? I presume other versions will fail to be flashed because they are older versions.
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Devanshu_Sharma:
"whyred_global_images_V9.2.4.0.NEIMIEK_20180210.0000.00_7.1_global_9de13715c9.tgz" This.:)
[Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro Guides, News, & Discussion] Sigray:
Can I switch to EDL mode directly (without disassembly)?