yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] SacTilt:
I have to agree with the OP, however, I wouldn't have stated it in quite those words. I agree that the driver issue is an important issue, and should be talked about and discussed, but I also agree that the number of posts about it is completely poluting this category.

I have recenting come to the realization that if I wanted to read topics from happy owners to browse the Upgrading section, and if I wanted to read about people irritated and p!ssy about their device then read this one.

Yes there are a lot of "idiot" threads and a lot of WM6.1 threads, but it doesn't even begin to compare. This category isn't even worth browsing anymore.

Just my 2 cents.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
So, just re-reading this thread and I noticed something. Correct me if I'm wrong but now we have:

people complaining, about people complaining, about people complaining about the driver issue! :eek:

Sheer farcical brilliance! It's like watching a Marx brothers' sketch. Or a session of Parliament. Either way, this thread has become a bit of light-hearted relief in a sometimes v serious forum. Keep 'em coming!

:)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] popeye2755:
I could not have have put it better myself...:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greeek:
Kinda sad to be quoting myself - but I could see this is what would happen...

As I said above - just an answer either way is all I'm asking... not a big $*!Tfight about the whole saga.

fisha21 nailed it with his response in post 6.

Though his views on the driver issue were different to mine - he could still see the benefit of the sub catagory.

(Though I hope your later post about the comedic relief of this one doesn't continue to ring true... for this thread anyway! :):):) )
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] spider_j:
I agree with the idea entirely. As for the suggestion of not reading the threads that are do to with drivers, it seems that every thread contains a reference to the issue. "I can't get software X to work." " I wouldn't bother, the Kaiser is crap as there are no drivers." "But this software doesn't need those drivers." "So? It's still a ripoff."

I exaggerate, but you get the idea.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that there is an issue, but I would not really have noticed it if not for all of the complaint threads. My device runs just fine for the functions that I use it for, and it certainly runs better in those respcts than the other 5 or 6 pocket pcs that I have lying around.

Yes, there are many disgruntled users, but there are also happy users, and the only happy users thread was instantly highjacked by the other camp.

Like many others, I came to this forum to find tips, tricks and software to maximise my experience, and think that the fine work of people like Dutty is being overshadowed by gripes about what would seem to be an irresolvable issue. Yes, let potential purchasers know, but not in such an overwhelming manner. It simply does not bother everyone.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] sahoopes:
And after 20+ posts they still haven't just given him the answer. :confused:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Jay2TheRescue:
Not that I don't personally want to read them, but it would make the forum more organized, and people (prospective new forum members) would easily see the abundance of information here, and not get put off by 50 threads whining about the video drivers.

Bottom line is my vote (if there is any vote at all) would be for a separate sub-forum for video driver issues.

-Jay
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
Sheesh, I've managed to find 3 driver related posts on the first three pages of this forum (aside from the stickies of course). Seriously, you can't handle a post per page? Get over it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] yzf750:
Money threads? How easy is it to say you will give 20 bucks towards a driver solution? Now how easy are 75% of these people going to really pay up if it happens? Heck Ill offer 500 bucks too to get someone to post/work a driver here and then just scoop it up like the rest and never pay.I think the money thread should go along with all the driver ones also into there own little waaa waaa space so I can find important stuff for my Kaiser like alot of us feel. Release another/better phone and I will just sell my kaiser and upgrade. Better yet, let me sue Ford cause they didnt put a 856 cubic inch motor in my F150. Oh wait, I knew exactly what I was buying in the first place and what it could do. What a concept.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] galenmd:
Great idea.

Forget about helping those who are not interested and don't want to hear "whining." A sub-category would be helpful to everyone interested in getting the driver issue fixed.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MACkjam:
Here Here, I second....ummm....1000th the motion for a sub-category called Kaiser cheese & whine forum.

hehehehehe

I started my PPC escapade in April 2006 with an iMate Kjam (Wizard). I found this site via a search and learned sooooo much from this forum.

It is time that the Kaiser sub-forum becomes more like the Wizard sub-forum has been.

DRIVERS!!!! start your engines!!!!!!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I am not a fan of another separate sub-forum. I am however a fan of mods deleting the threads that simply comprise "i dont like my kaiser and thus am off to get a ((insert alternative device name here))".

The other threads, even the massively self-conscious (and well guarded) classaction thread, follow the spirit of this place: Namely to make our devices better.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] slowatsch:
At the moment it seems to be verry popular to flame the Kaiser and the whole evil HTC Company... Every Second post is "whine whine, I'll get rid of my Kaiser bla" sorry but nobody cares.. ppl reading here want to improve thair Kaiser and get the best out of it. I dont need xda-developers if I want to get rid off the phone.

Cool, you are unhappy... good/bad for you... U can get another one but leave us alone with your personal whinings about. I'm not here to read about the benefits of an N95 or some Kaiser killers.. I bought the Kaiser and I want to impove it. All the whining stuff improves nothing.

Maybe you dont belive it, but I never had a reason to watch a video on my Kaiser... what an big issue to me this driver problem...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] spider_j:
I count 8 that concern the issue clearly. Other posts contain references to it. Some present partial software solutions, and so are useful. 3 of the first 5 things a visitor sees on this thread are stickies concerning the issue.

It is not that updates on the situation and helpful advice are not welcome; it is the repetition that is wearing. There seem to be some people that complain daily about the same thing.

If the device is that bad, sell it, put it in a drawer, return it if you can, but stop saying the same things that must have been said a thousand times by now. Surely people must have better things to do.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
haha..

4 pages of people complaining about people who complain too much. Sweet.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mccabeross:
My Kaiser is slow

Sorry, fist post and all... Don't know if this is the right place.

My Kaiser is slow - heard it maybe something to do with the video drivers?

Anyone else having the same issue or could point me in the right direction?

Thanks and goodnight.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
I so hope you're joking - just about time for a serving of sarcasm to go with the farce.

Although, on second thoughts, if you are serious, still not a bad place for a touch of well placed irony.

Either way, it just gets better and better. I vote to make this a sticky just to remind people this site can be light-hearted too!

Anymore out there...?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Atlantaman:
Newbie point of view

Well I guess I see both sides of the argument.

1

Yes we can do with the drivers and a campaign to get them and of course members should be able to express their anger at the situation.

2

Yes I am utterly p*****ed off with the whining and seriously crass attitude shown by many on this site. You know the "this phone is crap, I have a twenty year old one that is better in EVERY way" type of post.

I was recommended to this site as a place where real creativity and helpfullness was obvious and available and it did not have the kind of unintelligent ranting that some others do. I can see that is true in many ways, but those of us who want to make the best of our Tilt/Kaiser also want to enjoy it without a daily dose of cr** this and sh*** that and HTC are complete b******s

So keep up a campaign for the drivers, but let's not have any more new threads about the issue (we all know about it now) and equally let's not have any more "I absolutely love my Kaiser" ones either.

Enough already from both sides.

I vote for the Moderators to be a whole lot tougher on this matter. i.e if you have something new to say then that should be in an existing thread. Anything not new, should be moderated out on both sides. On another site I visit anything that is not contributing to a solution or an argument is Modded out with a simple line that says removed comment as it adds nothing new. (So this is not censorship as original ideas/thoughts are ok and get seen by all).

If this does not happen I'll be saying goodbye to XDA-Dev because I like a positive experience where I see problems posted, helpful constructive answers givenand new stuff developed not repetitive posting and rants

Maybe XDA-Developers has been over sold just like the video drivers. I really hope not but it's up to the members here. There is a distinct lack of tolerance about others points of view around here and that kinda stinks to me. JJ.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgmdean:
Talking of stickies...

Hmmm. How about a sticky that points to:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa447495.aspx

or somethings similar. I'm getting tired of the repeats from people who have no clue what a device driver is or does or why it matters. See previous message in this thread griping about "I don't need/want" to play video. The 2d drivers affect so much more, and the touch screen interrupt seriously impacts all running applications, ARRRRRRGGGHH! Must. Stop. Lecture. Now!

Hell, with minimal editing my and others posts on the subject would probably make a pretty good wiki entry... :D

For a little perspective I would put the driver debacle in the same class as the Pentium FDIV bug/errata, there are a lot of parallels if not the same scale.

Oh, and lay off HTC, it's all Qualcomm's fault! Light torches, grab pitchforks and let's toss their board in the nearest body of water! :p :D

James
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jon_k:
If it's a plea to the mods then why are you posting it publicly instead of PM'ing a moderator? You're creating just YET another thread about the issue.

:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
I agree fully with this point. When I first came to this site, there was very much an ethos of co-operation and constructive answers.

Things have changed a lot and one thing I am noticing more and more is this intolerance of other points of view. It gets to the stage where active discussion goes out of the window, because any attempt to express an idea is shot down in flames and vitriol. Makes for a very unpleasant browsing experience!

And I'm not just talking about the driver threads, so no comments about just not reading those particular threads (you know who you are) ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I am not a fan of the whining... but I dont think threatening to leave helps. Just don't read the threads. Its pretty obvious which ones should be avoided.

This place is still chock full of some amazingly helpful people/roms/cabs/advice. It isnt like you are going to miss something really important if you avoid reading "My Kaiser's Slower Than The Speak'n'Spell I had at kindergarten" threads.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greeek:
Another well worded comment.

Again, I don't want to use this thread to got into the actual driver issues at all, but in short, I encode all my videos to a pocket PC standard - and they play seamlessly.

That tells me that the device is plenty capable as is to get the job done, and done well.

As others have said, XDA is (or was) about improving... developing, our devices - there is very little productive about the way the discussions are headed in many threads now it seems...

Mods.. Is there any of you looking here? Whats the general feeling about this topic?

Let me have it... I can take it!! :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] redgarter437:
I think that the driver moaning is relevant, but I also think that the issue has grown to the point of warranting a new subcategory. XDA-Developers, like the title says (and someone else already pointed out), is about developing our devices to the fullest extent possible; the drivers would DEFINITELY help us do that. It has gotten a little long in the tooth, however, coming to the Kaiser forum and having so many posts about drivers, and bounties for drivers, and petitions, and class-actions, and complaints, about a chipset that HTC has been very public about not supporting for us.

Would it be wrong to start a new sub-category for this?!? That would clear up the primary sub-category for people that are having problems of another type, such as usage problems, etc. Isn't that what this category is supposed to be about anyway?

(Not disagreeing that this isn't a problem, just that the problem has grown in proportion to other issues to the point that maybe it needs a separate space, which would help everyone working on it to be on the same page, and would help those of us very interested in a solution have one place to check for it.)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greeek:
redgarter437, you are another that has shown that both sides of the fence here would be happy to see the the new sub-category, and believe that both would benefit from it...

Thank you.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] austinsnyc:
grow the fu*k up you di*k for brain Puss* people and realize y0u have bought what you have bought and now make the best of it period, this is a forum that was ment to be a dev forum not a cry baby my device is to slow forum. If you have a problem be part of the solution not the problem
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greeek:
I think I agree with your view - but perhaps your wording isn't really going to help the cause.

The whole "poor me" thing is frustrating though at times, yes...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dungbeetle:
FWIW, I overclocked the hell out of my Speak'n'Spell and ran Quake 3 on it all the way back in '79. :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
/start

Just got done reading through this whole thread any my conclusion is:

We just need to ignore the posts, hold in our anger reply and say "please, this is another thread on this subject please request this thread deleted and search for your problem". For the one who whine, STOP, Think, then if you realize its no good then don't post, if you realize its a real issue that may be different then the ones you "searched" for, then post.

We just need to calm down and get back to where we were, I joined here a long time ago and I saw this forum waaay different, every post in most threads where useful. Lately I have been seeing more flaming and more whining and more whining about whining and we just need to stop.

MODS: Have Humongous announcement on the affected devices with the driver issues, to say, "Before you post look here!!" and make it a F.A.Q list of questions that are asked to much, and a paragraph on why you shouldn't whine about it because everyone knows already and this is a productive forum not a whine forum.

/end
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greeek:
Tito, If people would do what you ask - there would be no problem. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening.

Perhaps the Mod's need to step in, step up, and actually enforce a heavier hand.

The pointless, and repeated rubbish should be instantly removed by the mods, and a PM sent to the OP stating that it was removed for whatever reason.

Until that happens, the current Kaiser category is filled with this garbage...

And no, not trying to pick another fight with those on the quest for their drivers etc.. but if it was all contained in a couple of threads - go nuts. Unfortunately, they have spawned the daily additions of "Phone for Sale", "I'm buyin a Sony" etc...

I mean - even without those - there are 3 sticky's that directly apply the the issue...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] somynex:
well, if the driver issue people don't want a sub-forum of their own, maybe those of us who have the crazy desire to avoid any driver related issues every now and then can have a "non-driver issue" sub-forum of our own :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
With the lack of Moderators willing to stand up and make a descision on this (without death threats) it would probably be more productive for developers to start a totally new forum for Kiasers (controlling it themselves) and non-developers to start a class action forum.

OH, sorry, the non-developers already have! :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Yea, and no I havent seen THAT many driver threads. Though that has drove me out into the Kaiser Upgrading forum.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wilsonzone:
I don't feel the need for a subcatagory, yes the driver project is important but we all have the choice what threads to read. The sticky'd threads really give great information about how the projects are going.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] iflu:
It took me 2 seconds to think what you meant. But you are probably right here. :p
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
lol this thread is still going? =)))) :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
See, this is what worries me. The prospect of serious developers packing up and decamping to a new, developers' only website. Farsquidge, there are those of non-developers who, although lacking the knowledge to create, welcome the opportunity to contribute by testing and suggesting (of course, we gain hugely in the process!)

Greeek, as much as we agree in principle, I do wish you wouldn't keep shooting yourself in the foot with comments like this :D. The driver issue is about much more than video playback. It affects all 2D and 3D graphics processes, from playing videos to drawing the Start menu on screen (although, granted, it doesn't seem to affect all users equally)

Edit: HANG ON A SEC!!

I've just realised something. Many people have commented that if you don't agree with the threads in question, just don't read them. Surely that should apply to everyone equally?

Recently there have been a couple of threads started trying to look objectively at why some devices seem more affected than others. There were the benchmarking efforts, and also attempts to collate ROM/serial number data etc to see if that revealed any patterns. These threads were immediately filled with flamers going on about how such efforts were all pointless and everyone should just support the Class Action instead.

Seemed like reasonable questions, in the absence of any official help from HTC. Just people contributing what they could with harmless threads, not forcing anyone to do anything involuntarily, yet still they were filled with negative messages from people who didn't agree.

If your arguement against a sub-forum is based on telling people not to read the threads that they disagree with, then have the courtesy to allow others the freedom to express their opinions without interference.

I've said it before, but this intolerance of others' views is the real issue here and is rapidly transforming the environment here. I am not talking of leaving because, after all, there is still a lot of help and advice (and precious software!) to be found but it is not the way it used to be.

Okay, putting the soapbox away now. Thanks ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
This is my one and only post for this unnecessary thread:

I vote NO for sub-category.

Why?

- There are not that many thread about drivers issue.

- These drivers issue is very important to discuss.

- We are smart enough to filter which thread to read.

*gone*
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
I agree there is no obvious value to this thread. However, it is the first in a while that features actual discussion between people with opposite points of view, with relatively little flaming and pointless ear-bashing.

Makes a welcome change.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
And there you have it folks!

Fact

The driver issue is important for many members.

Fact

The driver issue is not so important for many members.

Should we stop the campaign - NO.

Should we deny people the chance to speak - NO

Should we allow new threads on this subject - NO

(Use the existing ones)

Should we moderate out any abusive or non-constructive comment - YES

A brief summary of my view on this

I was one that felt development had gone out the window and ranting and abuse had come in. I was wrong. A fellow Mod whom I repect,pointed out to me that actually development has been going along just fine in the background. You only need to see the work of jockyw and the co-operation with the core codec folks.

Another Mod warned me against censorship - and rightly too. I have taken a few quiet weeks doing little moderation other than routine stuff whilst I considered what if any action should be taken. Things have quietened down quite a lot. The issue is still there of course but it has settled into a few fixed threads and indeed according to Chainfire it's looking pretty promising following the latest e-mail from the chief at HTC (see class action thread). The latest Core player is also performing well.

Conclusion

I will not remove any existing threads (believe it or not I had already trashed 7 or 8 of the dafter or duplicate type threads) but quite a few productive threads still exist.

I will be harder when threads sink into an endless page swallowing ding dong between members- only because XDA-Dev is worthy of better than that. If I spot ranting and abuse it will be deleted.

I will remove or merge any new threads with existing ones if they appear.

All new posts should be helpful / constructive and placed in one of these:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=359534

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=351986

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=342500

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=339173

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=339745

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=355345

I do not think a sub forum would really work well. Many folks (even those not that bothered about the drivers) will want to keep in touch with developments in their forum of choice = Kaiser. Limiting folk to the above threads will keep things neat and actually will be easier for the campaigners to keep track as well.

Report any new threads on the drivers topic or PM me and it will be moved/merged or removed depending on my entirely subjective point of view:D (but hopefully I now have a sensitivity to different shades of opinion on this

Oh and this thread will be closed in the next couple of days as hopefully it will have served it's purpose in firming up the way ahead.

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I wish you really were...

lol
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
And therein lies the value of this thread. Thanks Mike. Now, I think that was worthwhile!

EDIT: Oh look. 100th post makes me a senior member! Setting the bar a little low, guys?