yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] marm0lade:
I'm sorry mikechannon, but I disagree with you.

First of all, it is not "permanent", as you say. Your own review is editable. If HTC releases drivers, I will gladly change my review. I actually look forward to changing it. If they don't release drivers, my review stays negative.

Secondly, how is giving a perfectly honest and appropriate negative review any different than emailing weblogs like Engadget and Gizmodo to bring attention to it, or starting a website called "HTCClassAction", or having numerous threads going, regarding this issue, in the Kiaser forum here on XDA - arguably the biggest and most influential HTC community forum in the english language?

It is not any different. It is all bad publicity, and frankly, there needs to be more of it. HTC's press release basically said:

"Well, you caught us, we didn't support the included hardware, but we aren't going to fix it. If you want that functionality you are going to have to buy the next device we release."

Apparently they are not familiar with advertising laws in the US. And I quote from their HTC America website:

"Rich media experience with AT&T Mobile Music, Video, TV and games"

We can all agree the media experience is anything but "rich".

The only caution I would have for people giving negative reviews is to do so on the appropriate Amazon domain. If you are a UK or European customer, do it on Amazon UK. If you are in the US and on AT&T, do it on Amazon.com.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jimvaughan:
If the review is an honest review, then I have to say then the more reviews the better.

I for one wish I had known about the driver issues prior to purchase and prior to signing up for a two year agreement with AT&T.

Isn't the point of these Amazon reviews to point out that a device may have problems?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Zyren:
Dont forget to write reviews on sites such as www.newegg.com and www.buy.com that sell a LOT of these phones.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
Guys, there's not much point in continuing to argue about mikechannon's post. He's shown himself to be an HTC fanboy with not much good sense in many of his recent posts. Best to just ignore him and move on. I've posted what I feel is a fairly impartial review on amazon and epinions. Don't forget to review the Tilt as well, since it's sold under that moniker a lot under Amazon.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gasman858:
This is sad. This site has served its purpose of dissemination of ideas and information regarding these devices well. The things I've seen in the above posts are creating liability for the site and possibly for the individuals who posted them. It is possible that there will be action to shut this site down if this persists, not only from htc but from carriers and microsoft.

I agree with Channon - and I'd wager that very few of you are first time htc buyers. Which other htc device (or other converged device) worked perfectly when you bought it? Which other htc device that you owned remains with the stock rom and carrier bloatware? Some of you have been on this forum for two years - and should know better. For those of you who are htc noobs - you should have used your carrier's trial period to actually trial the features and functions of your htc device and then returned it as it hasn't performed to your expectations.

There are features I would like updated on this device and others that work as intended. Every other device I've owned or trialled has had its own issues. Many of which have been solved by the collaboration of forum participants.

I hope that you will use the collective energy required to write however many 15 minute amazon reviews (which in my opinion only someone who shouldn't buy this device would read - would all you IT folks read and put stock in an amazon review? Doubt it.) to help xda dev improve the features and functions in a constructive way.

Perhaps a better place for this thread is on htcclassaction.org.

Regards-
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] sahoopes:
I'm with gasman and Channon.

collective energy = good, mob = bad
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] marm0lade:
So can someone tell me again, what is wrong with giving a perfectly fair and sensible review of the Tilt on Amazon.com?

They are advertising it for sale with the AT&T service, as an authorized reseller. I have been an AT&T customer for 4 years, and have been using the Tilt since it was released on AT&T's network.

So you guys are telling me I should not give my review, even though I have every right to and even feel partially obligated too, since I would consider myself to have above average knowledge on the topic from the average purchaser, bc my review is negative and could potentially effect sales? So I should not post my review so that others can not be informed of the MAJOR slip-up HTC made? Hmmm, right.

And here I was thinking the whole point of giving a review was to give potential buyers insight on what to actually expect. Silly me.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
Please ...

Let me tell you, there are 2 kinds of review ... GOOD and BAD review.

As long as it is a honest review, to tell what you thought, what's your feeling about your this device, it is a valid review.

What is wrong with bad review?

We dont tell lie for God sake!

If the device is under perform, if the device is slow, if there is no drivers, if we cant play games properly, this are valid points.

We give review AFTER we have experienced the thing.

We give review to SHARE our experience with others.

What is wrong with that?

As I said, if you are HAPPY with this device, then it is up to you.

I (we) will not ask you to change your opinion.

Feel free to post your good review.

However, this is not your thread, not your cup of tea, leave it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
Different opinions mist be permitted in a thread or else anyone reading it would form the impression that we all agree and that this is the collective consensus opinion of the site.

The problem is of course there are strong feelings on both sides of this whole issue. Remember the "Happy User Thread" nobody was allowed to say they liked their Kaiser without getting flamed to some degree by the mobsters around here at present.

For many, and I've been getting several e-mails recently, this HTC / Kaiser bashing is very upsetting and spoiling peoples enjoyment of the site. Every problem is being put down to the driver issue when clearly that's nonsense.

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fusi:
take that you htc scumbags!

pow pow
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
This I DO agree with.

I also think its important to clarify what an earlier poster has said regarding the TILT - If you don't own a TILT I do not think it is appropriate/ethical etc... to post a review.

I for one have not posted in the "happy user thread" because I am not a happy user but I can fully accept that for many, probably the majority, the kaiser does what they want it to.

I just feel, perhaps because I'm a "power user", that I shouldn't have a device that fairs poorly compared to a 2 yr old magician.

And just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean you can't respect that and respectfully disagree which what we should all aspire too. However, people who just "post" (not you mike) who don't understand or take the time to understand the issues should be beaten with a big pole
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] marm0lade:
While not every issue can be tied to the video driver issue, it is hard to dispute that the lack of drivers does not bring down the entire device.

The display is (obviously) what the user interacts with. It relays information back and forth. Information is input on the screen. Information is viewed on the screen, whether it be text, picture, video, maps, etc. The mode in which this is done, is not being handled as it was designed for the chipset - through the Imageon processing. Thus, literally everything that is done on, with, or thru the device is negatively impacted by the improper implementation of video acceleration. HTC was quite aware of this, yet still chose to do it this way.

At least that is the way I see it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] simbadogg:
Gogol...you might wanna edit your post and throw in a link to the attwireless.com website, they have a review system for the Tilt as well, and there's only 16 reviews there as of right now, i will be #17, i want to bring that 4 or 5 star rating is has right now to a 1 or 2.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
simbadogg,

I added the URL. Let me know if it is wrong.

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-ph...etails/?device=AT&T+Tilt(TM)&q_sku=sku1060009
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Boinng:
I'm wholeheartedly behind the campaign for drivers, they should have been included in the first place and their absence does inhibit the whole device. I think Chainfire et al have done a fantastic job of raising awareness on the issue and bringing the pidgeons home to roost at HTC Towers, and if we get improvements to our phones it will be largely due to them, and I salute them for it.

All of that said, the Kaiser is still a great device. For me, as someone who doesn't play a lot of games or video (as many people don't) it's overall speed and performance is acceptable, if not amazing. I fully appreciate that even in the office apps etc the screen redraws could and should be better, but they're not so bad that it effects my enjoyment of the device. It's stable, reliable, well built, performs a multitude of tasks very well, and if I was going to give an honest review I'd have to say I was very happy with it.

That doesn't mean to say I'm not still annoyed at HTC, and hoping for a fix for the driver issues as much as everyone else.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
Mike, you are the moderator here.

If you think, this is not appropriate, then feel free to lock or delete the thread.

I wont argue more about it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
I appreciate your respect in saying that, but don't get me wrong. This is just my personal opinion and I MUST resist the temptation to remove everything just 'cos it's not my personal view (that would just be an abuse of power).

I respect your point of view, I may even have some sympathy for your aims, but I would rather let folks decide for themselves, having heard yours (along with others) and my point of view.

What I have moved / stopped are threads that are childish (this one isn't), you know the ones that just lash out wildly and promote some other non HTC device in an HTC device Forum. I also tend to close threads where the argument has been heard for both sides and it's just getting repetitive or abusive.

So regarding this thread my opinion is of no more value than that of anyone else.

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wyrm:
And myself, I'd say the same as Boinng.

I AM a power user (as most of us here are, I suppose), I AM annoyed by videos that get choppy if higher-res than Kaiser's native, by screen that lags whenever lots of new content appears (which is most of the time), by the screen re-orientation delay (this, thankfully, is LOTS better with Schaps's ROM than with the stock one - 2-3 seconds as opposed to 15-20), even by iGo having ever-so-slightly-choppy zoom-in (whereas with a Mio169 it was smooth as silk, all the way).

All these things annoy me. They really do. But not to the degree that they destroy my enjoyment of an otherwise great device, and Kaiser is just that.

This said, I'm a power USER, not GAMER, or even video junkie. I do like to play a game or watch a clip from time to time (and that's where I usually get angry), but not too much. And I can understand people who do the reverse.

I just hope that even with the open, aggressive indifference of HTC towards our "video plight", one of our XDA-Gods creates a driver we're all waiting for. This will make the good device that we have into a great device that it was meant (and hyped) to be.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
I must say my 3 year old ipod performs better than the tytnii as a pda; thus, if one is considering the tytnii techically as just pda, then the tytnii is very poor pda.

However, technically, the tytnii is also a "cell phone". However, due to the poor speakerphone/bt capabilities, the tytnii also performs very poorly as a cell phone.

I bought the tytnii to replace my ipaq pda and seperate cell phone as i thought it would be nice to have this all in "one device". i thought i would be able to use the tytnii while on a call so i could take notes/lookup information on the phone during a call. To do this, i need to be able to use the speaker phone so that I can see and touch the screen during a call; however, because of the poor speakerphone performance i cannot so the phone in reality makes both a poor cell phone as well pda as most of the time my use or need for pda occurs during phone calls.

When one also considers the poor video rendering capabilities; one has to wonder if overall the tytnii is just a poor device overall and agree with you that the device is not suitable for my use in its current poor state; thus, i am back to using my ipaq; and using my older cell phone and hoping that this problem gets resolved; i would of simply returned the tytnii; however, i bought the phone unlocked in the us and the warranty only provides for a replacement phone which means replacement with another defective phone...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] kdskamal:
I really love the great spirit of the kaiser community. Great going guys! Make the HTC realise something that they will never ever forget ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] amruths:
HTC seriously needs to improve their GRAPHICS capability in the TyTn II. Taking a photo takes ages and till the snap is taken, the person (of whom the photo was being taken) isnt there in the frame :) The video recording is so pathetic, that i have stopped taking snaps and videos with the TyTn II. I carry my digital camera along with me now.

As for the phone, the DIALER is so slow that i make very less calls. Well this has gone to my advantage because i dont get high mobile bills now :)

The only thing great about the TyTn II is the built in GPS. I love to use my GPS and show it off to people.

All in all....I would suggest people to look at other alternatives to this phone. I would return my phone back, but sadly we dont have the 30 DAY RETURN POLICY like western countires :(

ALL THE ABOVE IS MY PERSONAL OPINION
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] getwilde:
If you are not following this thread (http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=1868607), but see value in offering reviews of your product to encourage fellow consumers (if you enjoy your purchase) or warn fellow consumers (if you regret your purchase), have a look at this article:

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/press_release/0,1014,sid=2283&cid=173666,00.html

I agree with the moderator to the extent that if courts or media perceive this to be an orchestrated "give a negative review" campaign, it does not help our cause. That's not what this is about. DO NOT ABUSE your rights to submit a *fair* review. If you like your device, give a good review! If you don't like it, give a poor review. I personally have submitted reviews for the Mogul to the two sites that I commonly refer to before making big purchases. I wish there had been more reviews mentioning sluggish behavior BEFORE I bought my phone. Now there one more such review. Hopefully my opinion helps the next guy make an informed purchase decision.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Arlop:
I just post my honest review of the product. I really wish I knew what I was buying when I bought it. I read a ton of reviews that made this thing seem like heaven now I am now just realizing that I purchased a 500 dollar gimmick. I hopped on the early adopter bus and got caught. I think reviewing this product in a fair way will help others in the future.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] juiceppc:
To mikechannon:

These sites allow people to post their "opinions". If HTC or Qualcomm or Tmobile or ATT don't like it then they'll have to take that up with these retailing websites. There is nothing illegal or "wrong" with people posting their opinions where these sites are asking for it.

If HTC doesn't like the opinions people are submitting then they need to try and fix that if they want to change peoples opinions. That's how business works. Serve the customer. And from HTC's recent statements they don't seem to care what peoples opinions are so why should you?

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. People are reacting to HTC's statement of "We're not fixing your Kaisers. But we'll sell you a new one that will be fixed*."

Really the video playback and sometimes slow response I can live with but the camera is almost useless in less than perfect light. I would really like to depend on this camera. The TyTN I and Touch(older models) perform much better in low light.

If customers are upset their not supposed to voice it?

Also HTC is what it is today because of people like us spending hard earned money on their products. So when us people, the same people who have been supporting them for years are asking for something in return(and not very much IMHO) they shut the door in our face. Now, we respond!

_______________

*drivers included
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
Hi Arlop,

Thanks for your effort to make that review, really appreciated. Hope more to come.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rush242:
Lovely. "You" can't see any issues, it does all "you" want it to, it does those things quickly enough that "you" don't worry about it.

So therefore, what? Everyone else must come to the same conclusions that you have drawn and act as you've decided to act?

To put pressure on providers (AT&T, O2, etc.), and retailers (Amazon, eXpansys, etc.), to press HTC to provide the drivers.

To use your same reasoning: I would suggest if you do not like the thread and have issues with it, then maybe the thread is not the most ideal thread for you.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Some comments here.

Is this the way to bring HTC down on his knees by suggesting people to write bad reviews.

NO.

It will only create contraversy and piss HTC off with a risk of never having a solution from their side. I understand and agree on the Mod's point regarding this direction (I do not agree that the site mainly is about HTC bashing only)

Should a non-techy candidate buyer be informed upfront not making the same mistake as thousands of us?

YES.

But it should be done freely, and not orchestrated.

When I got my device in Sep 2007, I gave it a 9/10 on CNET Asia. It was a premature as I did not tested the device fully. i was overwhelmed with its functionality and overall appeal

I updated my review to a 5/10 in october (after finding out that my older Tytn I was simply faster in many aspects) making the device "doubtable".

My sincere proposal is not to bomb those sites with waves and waves of destructive mails. Avoid a counterstrike from HTC if things would go to court.

The harm is done for them already now that carriers start to doubt HTS' reliability and support.

Do not get me wrong, I am behind any action and went further than most of you would think.

yes, i handed out flyers here in front of high PDA rotation shops sharing my thoughts about this device. It was isolated, and personal. I could have been take responsible. let's not make the XDA community resonsible in a whole.

Some people do love their Tilt or Tytn II. (some I said)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
So, you suggest to write a good review while we feel this device is not good?

Dont tell lie! Write honest review! If you dont like the device, say it out loud!

If you like it, then write a good review! np with that.

If you dont want to write a review, its fine as well! Nobody will mad at you.

Its your choice.

Yeah, sure ... by writing an article about it ... or review, right???

So, same like you, can we UPDATE our view (or review) about the device???
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I think that the way that some of the people are flaming anyone who says they are happy with their device - and the way some people are suggesting that HTC conspired to deliberately mislead the public is actually going to backfire and HTC will stop listening to comments.

If people really think a class action is worthwhile, then a) you need to have shown that you tried all other easier remedies first - so lets see the correspondence from the retailer/network refusing to refund your money or replace your devices with another type; b) letting the conspiracy theory crazies contribute to your PR campaign is likely to destroy your credibility; and c) arguing and refusing to listen to the users who are actually happy with their devices is tantamount to wasting your opportunity to hear HTC's defence in advance.

Now my review: My device is quicker and better than my Hermes in every way. I am thus happy with it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
@ceevee,

The thing that I dont understand, if you did that, why do you critize people writing bad review? seems like ....

Originally Posted by ceevee369

Some comments here.

Is this the way to bring HTC down on his knees by suggesting people to write bad reviews.

NO.

I am not suggesting people to tell lie ...

Like I said, you must be honest with the review.

So, what's wrong with that?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] juiceppc:
Why is this thing so heavy too? It's way heaver than the TyTN and only seems to add GPS and doube RAM. Does a GPS chip and double RAM weigh that much? Just curious. Because IMHO something this heavy seems like it should be spitting out some massive power.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
Because HTC correctly advertised this device to have weight about 190 g.

Got that?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Laurentius26:
Cool... and what about the camera.... you like that too :D

Anything else is ok yes ;)

Regards,

Leo :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Actually yes! I am happy with the camera. I have the latest software which has helped - and its not amazing in lowlight - but its very good otherwise for a phone cam.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] juiceppc:
Oh, cuz they like stuff to be heavy. Got it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] maryjos:
Thought you all might be interested to hear from me, as I currently have the highest rated "positive" review on Amazon of the Tilt, by a good margin. I usually try to post my reviews of new tech devices pretty quickly, as it's often a matter of the first few reviewers getting the bulk of the helpful votes. Someone earlier mentioned that you can always go back and edit your review. Well, since posting my initial 5-star review, I've tried a number of times to edit it to lower the star ranking and include some of these issues that have cropped up....yet none of my edits ever appear on the site. Now, I personally don't have huge issues with using the device, and still would rate it pretty high. But I do believe in being honest, and I can't see giving it 5-stars with the issues it has. 1-star is a bit harsh, IMO, but considering the response from HTC to thousands of upset users (i.e. basically none) I can certainly understand wanting to warn people away. I've added some of this information in the comments after my review, but it does frustrate me that the review people read first is generally going to be mine, with nothing but great things to say about it. Still, I hope you all don't go on an "unhelpful" voting campaign against me...I do have an email into Amazon to see if they have any reason behind not letting me edit my review, so hopefully I will get some response from that...not holding my breath, but I did play up the importance of my reputation as a top reviewer. :)