yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radek Hulán:
happy owner here

I use TomTom 6 almost daily on TyTN II, have used it on TyTN (I), Artemis and other devices. It works well on Kaiser. I think this "issue" is mostly academic one, rather than affecting real-life experience.

ATI Imageon chip is supposed to help apps "with Direct Draw, Direct X". Are you saying all apps use these API? Does OS itself use Direct Draw for *all* screen output? It might, I do not know (reference to Microsoft website would clear this, not a personal guess).

Anyway, I did use plenty of WM5/6 devices for work (email, messenger, internet browsing w/ Opera, TomTom and iGo navigation), and Kaiser is one of the fastest devices I had.

Nobody would mind getting even more speed, but on the other hand -- I do not care if screen redraw takes 0.1 or 0.2 miliseconds. Nobody can see that.

Most HTC devices are aimed at professional users, managers, etc., and they could not care less about video acceleration. I do not care, and am 101% happy w/ HTC Kaiser aka TyTN II. I can understand 1% of buyers might be upset, but this is a definitive minority of HTC buyers. If you want a multimedia "teen" device, get an iPhone, if you want to work on your device, get HTC.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
Well, I'm not getting into daft arguements about hypothetical percentages, all I'm saying is that the issues are not shown on all devices or at least not to the same degree. I was hoping we could work toward establishing more precisely what the problems are.

I don't refer to you here. But there are a lot of sweeping statements being made of late and they are not being backed up by highly precise data. The forum was set up as a developer forum and we worked on programing solutions to problems - this is not likely if all we get are statements saying this is crap that is crap, I hate HTC etc. Unfortunately some of our best developers have been very busy lately, and we can only hope they don't disappear from here because it is becoming a moaning site (like so many others) rather than a creative one.

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
Well we could and I would be interested in doing that but co-ordinating the results sensibly would take time for organisation I don't have. Would be more than willing to participate though if someone wants to organize it.

@ Radek Hulán yes some good points.

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tyeo098:
I really like my kaiser, one of my favorite things to do is ush the start button and watch it draw icons for 1.5s+.

And after that I abosolutly love to pull out the keyboard or push my assaigned key to switch to lanscape mode, and for a moment i have 2 start menus and two bottom bars, along with 1/2 a today screen!

Its an amazing peice of technology yes, but honestly High Tech Computing needs to include some High Tech Drivers. (Peroid!)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tyeo098:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aleTAqmdYY

Youtube has the handy lil timer on the bottom to keep track.

2 seconds for the tilt.

Thats almost 1000 more than you said.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
I think your post illustrates the point I have been trying to make (along with a couple of other posters). Some of you have a TyTn II that is clearly performing worse than the Tytn (8525). BUT others of us see a marked (and I do mean noticable) speed / redraw etc improvement in the TyTn II. In all the months I have had this device I have only done planned soft resets and no unwanted hard resets - my TyTn had to be soft reset every other week and many had to set it to auto reset every day.

The thing to pin down is therefore "what is the difference" between to well performing Kaisers and those that don't. We know the symptoms, what is the cause(s).

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radek Hulán:
This happens on *all* WM5/6 devices, if icons are not cached in RAM, but read from flash memory. Try to open the folder again, it will be shown immediately. This has nothing to do with "video driver".
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tyeo098:
Did you even read my second post?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
As someone mentioned, could you post a video of the viewfinder when you're in camera mode, since you don't seem to be having problems with it?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tyeo098:
Its kinda hard if thats the only camera he has...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] spellshaper:
And what if you want both?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greenbrd:
Serious step backwards

You know, it's not like people here are complaining that the Kaiser/Tilt isn't *as advanced* as we were led to believe it would be. It's not like we expected it to be a 10 and it's "only" a 9.

People are complaining that the Kaiser/Tilt is *worse* than other devices that are three, four, even five years old. I don't want to harp on the video playing because the issue is much more than that, but my five-year old Dell Axim X30 running WM2003 plays videos WAY better than my brand-new state-of-the-art Tilt.

There is no excuse whatsoever for technology to regress by leaps and bounds like HTC has done with this device.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] budakjb:
Happy User

Yeah..I am Happy with my TyTn II.

Beside the camera...its not so bad at all..

Overall ..i think my TyTN II is a super duper great devide..compare to others in the market..it has everything i need..GPS,PDA,Camera..wahtever u name it..

btw i still hope that..one day..our forumers will come with solutions for all the problem that out device faces..like the video drivers,slow scroll..slow ringging tones etc..

what ever..it still found that HTC TyTn II is a super duper class devide in the market now..

:D:p:p:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radek Hulán:
Why would anybody want to watch video on 320x240 screen anyway? I could never understand that... Most people love to watch 1080i/p video on XY" screens, not on "postage stamp" sizes. Most Kaiser users are not buying the device to watch ripped "The Simpsons" movie at 320x240, but to work with it, use email, sms, browser, TomTom, Messenger, etc. And Kaiser is perfect for such work...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Kepela523:
Sorry to break the news to you. but that guy has way too much time on his hands.. its BARELY even noticable on the differences of speed. for someone to EVEN complain and record and post this on youtube is just flat out rediculous..

If you may, please deliver the msg, 'Cry me a river'

That Video proves nothing.. We dont even know what software he has running on the background, we know nothing..

It just makes me laugh out loud.. its hilarious..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Steve-C:
I just bothered to watch that video after your post, and you are right. The redraw on the left device isn't as quick as you would think and the screens are different, so not a fair comparison. I tried with my Kaiser, and with just the stock screen, its lightening. With WisBar3, SBSH Weather and iLauncher, the lag is noticable, moreso on the ilauncher and Weather app, the rest is just as quick. I would like to bet this is nothing to do with drivers, and everything to do with those two bits of software needing time to recalculate how much info can be displayed on the new screen size and how to reformat themselves.

I think there is a lot of this display issue being down to not only the plugins display requirements, but also what resources they use. Surely the more free memory the phone has, the faster it will work? Use up a lot of it so it only has limited resources free, and it will run slower. Maybe the users experiencing the more sever problems are the ones using the devices most heavily, and its just to be expected?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
I HONESTLY have no problems with my tilt. I can watch videos, slingplayer, I have tomtom installed, installed the new camera fix(helped alot I might say, but not the best). I donated to the driver issue b/c if I can get this phone to be better than what it is, then I'm straight!!! I too, am starting to wonder if some are "rushed to the market', and some are better than those. Running Duttys' Roms on it makes it even better. I beta tested his ver.4, and I went back to 3 b/c the speed was better, my battery to me was better, and my Tilt runs smooth. I don't have anyone that I can test my tilt to compare but I would love to. My Wife has that iphone, and if my screen was bigger, she has said that she would want my Tilt. I know the Tilt could be better, don't get me wrong...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
By the way, what happened to the originator of this thread:confused:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] takeda240:
i think those who say the kaiseris not slow are just very optomistic about it because i find navigation (thru menus) alone to be daunting waiting for screens to load and stuff. this is my first .... "high end" device ever, i have never even owned a psp (not that its relevant) but i have sen the way other 400$ peices of equipment respond and this thing is like autistic once in a while it behaves but mostly grossly underperforms my friends make fun of me for buying a 600$ phone that takes like 3X the amount of time just to dial a damn phone number (Because of using the touch screen which slows it down and waiting for the screen to load) my phone was supposed to be better than an iphone and now im ust embarrased... :(

another point...why would you put a three megapixel camera in a phone that is only meant for ... spreadsheets... yet the "multimedi ritch" iphone only has.. a 2 mp camera... but this phone isnt meant for multimedia?...... its a pocket-P-C as in it needs to do what a pc can do (up to what it advertises at least)(i dont expect to play halo on this thing or nothing) and then said 3 mp camera can take soooooo long to make a shot i usually never make it. everything always comes out to a blur..... i was better off with the 1.3 mp cam on my nokia 6102i
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bronx:
thinking the same thing Mate... thinking the same.

tomtom 6 works perfectly, no scrolling issue anymore with old dll in pie. I don't have milions of apps, so my sys is quite snappy.

and no... I am not an expert. it's my second wm device after tytn so it gives me about one year of experience only. b4 I used symbian alot which is even (usually) more responsive than wm.

I know what to expect and if You want trully quick device then flash one of those tweaked roms and DO NOT overstuff Your pda with tons of sometimes useless apps. If You know device comparable with specs to tytn II which can handle it then go ahead.

give me an advice.

br

bro
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] guest3:
Yes it does take longer to dial on a screen based dialer, so, the dialing is based more around software rather than hard keys.

Try sms on the qwerty compared to numeric keys or, even T9.(the phrase/word completion software)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] takeda240:
and thats how this phone looked when i researches it before buying....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I have had the Original SPV, SPV 100, SPV E200, M500, Imate Jamin, M3100 and now the Kaiser.

I flashed about 25 roms on my 3100 and ended up very happy with the Black roms that made the device very usable.

In Sept 2007, I got my Kaiser. Even with the Orange Rom it was quicker and more responsive than my 3100. I recently flashed it with the latest Dutty Rom. It is even quicker.

I do not consider myself a WM novice. I think the device is a step forward from the the predecessor and am thus happy with it.

I echo the original posters comments.

Get it into perspective. HTC are not a bunch of lying money grabbing criminals. Without them, very few of you would be using this forum as you wouldnt have WM devices. Look at Imate's current situation after trying to go it alone...

Oh yeah and look at the Chinese look-a-likes.

And finally - are the users with "slow" devices using similar roms and do they have third party software that is slowing their devices down?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
Seriously and I'm getting blue in the face saying this my Kaiser is not slow in menus etc etc etc etc. I have the experience to know. That does not mean I do not believe others when they say theirs is slow. Why oh why is it so difficult for those who say they have speed problems to believe that others may not. Dogma will get us nowhere.

. My final plea is that when people try to illustrate a speed issue they do so with good data and compare like with like. The youtube video mentioned above is an example of proving nothing because of a lack of methodology - you know the basic stuff - both machines running the same ROM, software etc etc.

I'm going to shut up on this thread and give others a chance

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] takeda240:
well im not saying that its impossible that those who say it is faster than lets say .. 8528 are telling the truth.. but its just odd that sooo many people say (like me) that it is slower in most aspects not just the so called hi definition video that htc keeps talking about. so it would just be appreciated if while those who are having problems with this device are fighting the company to come up with a solution, there are not people who own the device saying "o there is absolutely nothing wrong with it grow up" because some of us are having these problems... i think if just some hansets are defective then htc still needs to be aware and it should be like an optional recall kind of thing.. ide like mine to run as good as the rest on this thread say it does...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
If it's so academic, why don't you go back and run your Windows computer (if you have one) in SAFE mode (or any computer with no/generic drivers) 100% of the time daily and enjoy it. Does dragging windows around, moving the mouse pointer, or dropping down menus require DirectX?

I think THEN you would have merit to speak here and argue your points.

It's just so sad that back in my day, we had sprite hardware to manage graphics and everything was written closer to the metal to be snappy. The OS X is nice because it moved all desktop graphics into OpenGL in the same vein.

Now brute-forcing graphics through the CPU with runtime interpreted languages (.NET) is perfectly acceptable.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MikeChannon:
Totally agree there and that's why I'd like to know what is causing the difference in reported performances (software? hardware?). If I had the time I would set up a proper set of tests with proper controls to eliminate all the personal biases etc (sadly I don't have the time) BTW I Also have no objection to the campaign to get drivers for added capability either.

Mike
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tyeo098:
*Sigh*

The point is, we paid 700$+ for this device, we shouldnt have to complain at all about it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] nodger77:
Benchmark

I just ran VsBenchmark2007 on my Kaiser and have posted the results to the following URL:

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~nodger/result/

My Kaiser details are:

ROM Version 1.56.405.5

ROM Date 08/28/07

Radio Version 1.27.12.32

Protocol Version 22.45.88.07H

It only takes about 10 minutes to do this, and it'll help clear up a lot of the questions that have been raised on this forum. You can download VsBenchmark2007 from here:

http://www.virtualspaghetti.com/files/VsBenchmark2007Setup.exe
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
To be fair, I timed my Kaiser against these guys and I'm seem to be slightly faster than the Tilt there, and about par with the 8525. However, the Today screen is a very bad place to time because of all the crap running there that's CPU dependent, the skinning, and custom graphics.

The Programs window is a better place to test and it's fairly snappy with Dutty's v3. I say fairly because my Palm T|X still eats my Kaiser with instantaneous screen rotate.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Sean D.:
I agree with you 100% I don't have any of the issues that are being constantly brought up. I was even wondering if a lot of it is just complaining because they know an *issue* exists, not because they have experienced it. But whatever... I love mine, I have no complaints, only compliments.

:D

Maybe some of you all should consider the program load you are carrying. I mean, I've seen some of the today screens being used around here... and damn! :eek:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] guest3:
Happy user here

Yes im happy with the kaiser.

Sure alot will be unhappy with the device, graphics issues (though the gathered info, isnt enough to tell whether it is a driver issue completely).

Wouldnt really bash on HTC, for their business practices, because i decided to purchase their phone. While the kaiser is always going to be trailing behind true multimedia devices it isnt only a "one trick pony" while it doesnt excell in all aspects it does each well enough.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Steve-C:
Hello Kettle? This is Pot....You're black.

Some of us aren't having problems, this is true. Some of us that aren't having problems might be saying "grow up", some of us are saying "we're happy, but good luck with the campaign". Mike has even come out and posed a decent opinion, that maybe its not driver, but resource related, and asked to have back to back tests using as close to like for like equipment as possible. I'm in the "No Problemo" camp and really wish that those that do think the Kaiser sucks more than a ZX81 would stop calling us " optomistic ", and bashing the Kaiser for all it's worth. For me (notice the ME bit there) it's a good device, that packs a lot in and does a good job. For others, its not what they hoped for, good luck to those who are trying to get the device to perform to their needs, but again, please stop telling all the people that are happy that they are expecting too little.

First thing you learn in a service industry is that if you do a good job for a customer, they tend to take it for granted. Do a bad job, and they will yell it from the roof tops....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bronx:
thank You guys for all the response.

good or bad- doesn't matter.

the point is that kaiser isn't uber-device, but I cannot see any serious competition for it. maybe, just maybe new i-mates will cause me to say byebye to t2, but 4 now It's my weapon of choice.

sorry to hear, that some of us were so hyped with info bout msm7200 that they couldn't wait for first pro tests.

if it's any cheerio for You, then I've heard recently, that some of the devices with goForce5500 on board are underperforming aswell.

maybe it is not time yet for multimedia revolution in pdas? ;)

good night and br as usuall

bro

P.S. and YES. I would donate aswell to get those damn drivers just to make it even better. but remember, that there is probably nothing that can be done with the camera. so maybe it is time to put Your kaiser on ebay while it's still not scratched too much..? ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Wow, 4 guys saying 7000 people have "random" device problems and not one of them backing up their claims of "snappy" devices with a video. How about it guys, let's see you run them Ferrari through the paces :rolleyes:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Steve-C:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrHwG6xpc-E

Video on my laptop, then the same on my Kaiser, followed by a bit of browsing in PIE and Opera. Seems snappy to me....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
2 seconds of video and what can only be described as gentle scrolling is not running it through the paces. By the way, even with that gentle scrolling we notice some jitter. I understand though that for many people it's a question of rationalizing their purchase ;)

EDIT: Let's see you go into Programs and scroll them icons up and down (slightly faster please) and switch from portrait to landscape :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
What's the resolution and bitrate on the stargate video you're playing? Is it the same as on the laptop? And why are you testing the internet on a site where you barely have to scroll? Post a video scrolling down the xda-dev forum list in PIE.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
Yep, put up or shut up. And I still want to see that video of the camera display.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] smads:
I am absolutely NO WAY getting this sort of performance from the very same page on my Vario 3.

As for the TomTom demo, if you load up too many POI into the database it can slow down. However, running a demo on my Vario 3 on 100% speed is fluid.

The camera is poor in low light but I have already put my 2p's worth in there - http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=361726
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Post some hard scrolling in PIE using your 5-way. Opera Mini is not a usable comparison since it's running in hardware-accelerated Java.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Steve-C:
Yes, the video is exactly the same file on the laptop, and the Kaiser. 70kbps video, 97kbps audio.

But thats optimised you'll say! It wouldn't look like that if it was a 2GB DVD quality .avi file!!!!!! And the point of running DVD quality file on a 320x240 display is???

Yes, this site on PIE is crap. Yet Microsoft say "Use Internet Explorer Mobile to enjoy a rich Web experience" Linky. Use Opera on the same site, and its vastly different. Why? How come Opera can give "a rich web experience" but Microsoft can't, on the same device, running THEIR OS?!

I know...lets go start a class action against Bill Gates for misrepresenting PIE, since it must be HIS fault due to other software being able to do the job perfectly. Come on, who's up for that then?! Oh no, it's not fair to compare a superior web browser with PIE because that chucks your arguament into the bin. Why is it HTC's fault that the default browser shipped with the Windows Mobile OS is crap? Opera is free, is faster, uses less bandwith and delivers superior results. If you feel the need to commit suicide just because you can't get PIE to scroll smoothly, stop whining and use a different browser, HTC are never going to fix that problem.

Likewise your jumpy video issue. Well CorePlayer are realeasing a Kaiser optimised player that, after a quick read of their forum, is going to solve the issue. So now that other software can solve the problem, is it HTC, or Microsoft again, since its their Windows Media Player that can't handle things. It's also something that a player not optmised for the Kaiser can't handle from Core.

I posted that video to see what the reaction was. And as expected, the doom and gloomers jumped straight down my throat. You know what I'm going to do in the morning? Call HTC UK. Tell them I have heard about all these 'driver' issues, and I would like (probably be the first as well) to congratulate them on a great device, that has met my every need and expectation. I would imagine that the poor person on the other end of the phone would love to have that phone call. Might be worth dropping The Register a line too and tell them to check out Opera and do a shoot out between that and PIE on the Kaiser and then see if they think its a Miscrosoft issue or a HTC one.

Now I don't have a Tytn I so hows about someone post a comparison vid between that and a Tytn II doing the slider thing with a stock background, no hidden apps running, no third party plugins and just the date, calender, messages, task open on the today screen so we can see what a STOCK Tytn I does against a STOCK Tytn II.

Mike, if you feel the need to moderate any of this, go right ahead.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mrmega:
Steve-C

What about lag and jerk when trying to swap between the today screen and ANY other window?

What about the lag trying to surf through contacts?

What about the touch screens unresponsive performance?

What about laggy and jerky response trying to do ANYTHING a basic ppc should do?

Are you going to congratulate HTC on these things too? :rolleyes: