yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
I feel the need to address this... despite not having been in the original exchange. I can accept that you have a differing viewpoint from us. I refuse to be called a "litigation-crazed" person. I also think you need to get your facts straight before you pass judgment.

The simple fact is - we want the functionality that our devices were advertised with. Many of us did our research and realized that the MSM7500 is a POWERFUL chip. The video acceleration is top-tier, and everything else seemed good too. Then HTC decided to not include a driver for video acceleration. Also, before someone mentions that HTC has claimed(but never in an official press release) that the MSM7500 might NOT include the video acceleration... When have you known a huge manufacturer(nVidia, AMD, Intel, ATi, Qualcomm, etc) to name two differing devices the same name? They don't. they generally qualify them(e.g. 8800 series nVidia cards can be 8800 GT, GTX, GTS, etc.) What HTC did is akin to Dell selling you an Inspiron notebook with an nVidia 8800GTS card inside, then telling you that they didn't include drivers. Oh, and don't forget that nVidia won't support the card, since it's up to the manufacturer(Dell) to supply the drivers. Microsoft won't do it since it's Dell's problem. Dell won't do it because it isn't cost effective. (Suspend the reality of the situation for the analogy, though, please) Now you're left with a $300 piece of video hardware that can't be used because nobody wanted to provide a driver. Go software acceleration! That's the issue we're having. The phones WERE advertised as having the MSM7500(or 7200) which according to everything I've seen both have video acceleration. HTC just dropped the ball.

Now, about us writing our own drivers... That would be difficult without getting a bunch of information from Microsoft, HTC and Qualcomm, which they won't release. If you don't know why, look up open source video drivers for Linux, and you'll understand the pain. It's not a baseless suit - however I don't think that class action is the way to go. I think we need to work WITH MS, HTC, and Qualcomm to come up with a driver. Period. Don't let up the pressure until we have that.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] bakntyme:
I am sorry, but when your advocacy group starts out with a name like "HTCClassAction", and names its website "htcclassaction.org", it shows itself as not interested in getting the claimed result, but instead, despite any protestations from the group, interested in filing a class-action lawsuit from the beginning. That is "litigation-crazed". Was "htcvideodrivers.org" not available? I am sure that, if you wanted to, given a few minutes you could come up with several non-litigation-oriented group and website names. If you were the product manager for the 6800 at HTC, and you heard of the issues raised by the group HTCClassAction, would you think, "Here is a group of users that wants to work with us to resolve what they see as a legitimate issue?"

Speaking of facts...have you actually seen an advertisement that stated that the devices came with this functionality, or did you just assume that because it was advertised as having this chipset, and the chipset has this capability, that the functionality would be included? I would bet that HTC never stated that the 6800 would include every feature technologically possible with the chipset. It has the capability of supporting an 8MP camera, but they didn't include that either. Another lawsuit? I am sure there are other things the chipset would be CAPABLE of that were not included. If you actually researched the chipset so thoroughly for this issue prior to purchasing the device, why did you not notice in the first 30 days that it was not included, and return the device?

Realize that modern class-action lawsuits are almost always settled for lots of money to the attorneys and a pittance to the class. Remember the Verizon Moto 710 Bluetooth class action? It was settled as usual...the attorneys got somewhere around $6 million; users got $25 if they wanted to keep the 710 and stay with Verizon, a waived ETF and a refund if they wanted to leave Verizon, and a credit toward another device if they wanted to stay with Verizon but not keep the 710. They did not get additional Bluetooth profiles. And if this goes to trial, the courts will never order a manufacturer to provide technology, and support for it, that the manufacturer does not want to provide. IF you could prove false advertising, and I do not think that you could, you might get a small refund or credit toward another phone. If that is what you want, just sell the device on an internet auction site and buy something else...you will probably get more that way.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] kmartburrito:
sucks too that our phones dont even have the ati chip in them. my htc wizard (old school) had better video and gameplay
[Mogul, XV6800 General] mc-fine:
I don't play games much on my ppc so this problem hasn't affected me as much. However I did notice that PIE was sluggish and freaked when video playback sucked on WM and TCPMP. Most of that was avoided by using GDI on TCPMP.

The real issue here is why can't they add the driver? If it was a simple fix it probably wouldn't have been left out in the first place. Sounds to me like they ran into technical issues trying to make it work.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] johnannie:
I just got the mogul last week. I have 30 days to evaluate it. Do you think that I should have gotten something else? I think that I've had at least 10 different Smartphones & PPC's in the past 5 or 6 years. They all have something I dislike about them. This one is the best one I've had yet, but would you recommend something else? THANKS
[Mogul, XV6800 General] watson540:
you hit the nail on the head. EVERY PPC is going to have SOMETHING you dont like about it.

with that said. it only matters what you think. dont go taking advice from a forum where 50 percent of its members cant even tie their shoes.

For the record, i agree with what the person said way up at the beginnning of the thread. "Why are you *****ing now when you had 30 days in which to evaluate and return it if you felt the need?!""

I would imagine the courts will say the same. everyone who thinks this is a legit complaint needs to get a hobby. you all had 30 days in which to make your decision, so DEAL with it.

sound like a buncha kids to me

I guess we should sue them for not having a 'tv out' jack on the mogul too, since thats also possible. and oh yeah, where's my 8 megapixel camera on the mogul?? it supports that as well.

ah screw it, im going to cry to mommy
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
Hahahahaha. Yes, we're children. Little babies, the lot of us. Anyway......

No, we shouldn't sue them for not including a tv-out jack or an 8 megapixel camera. What we are trying to achieve is driver support FOR THE INCLUDED HARDWARE. This is what most people who argue against our position fail to realize. We aren't asking them to do something crazy, like give us a better camera or a tv-out jack, or even more memory. We're asking them to SUPPORT THE HARDWARE THEY SOLD US. Gasp.

Now... I'll use an analogy for those among us who are a bit retarded. If you were to buy a car that was advertised with a special computer chip in it that can control a supercharger, the electronic stability control system, up to 6 airbags, and the radio (all of which are included in your car, albeit only 4 airbags) - and it came with a 30-day money-back guarantee... and you drove it for 30 days and thought to yourself, "Wow, this is clearly better than last years' model" - would you return it? Probably not... That's what happened here.

We bought our phones, tried them and went, "Wow, they kicked the crap out of the <insert old PDA phone here>" and kept them. Now, back to our example. Now imagine you go to a car-meet-up with your new fancy car, and everyone there is talking about how <insert another fast car here> is wayyyy faster than their car, in the same conditions. You and the other owners do some research and find out that the car manufacturer didn't include software to make your supercharger work. It's just inert, sitting there looking pretty. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed that the chip in your car wasn't actually using the supercharger? Wouldn't you expect that if it was advertised as having this chip and a supercharger, that the supercharger would actually work?

Anyway - that's where I'm coming from at least - I don't presume to speak for anyone else though. I will say this though, watson540, you need to calm down. You're running around these forums beating on people's opinions and posts. Frankly, yours aren't much more productive. At least try to post something relevant or meaningful... or at the very least something other than "you moron, rtft" or "you moron, stop crying".
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Rudegar:
it's not really a bug its more

like a pc with the generic vga driver installed

even if the pc have a geforce

problems is that one cant get hold of the

spc driver to replace the generic
[Mogul, XV6800 General] knives of ice:
its just bull**** when the the video playback on the 6700 is alot better than the titan. makes no sense at all and yes i feel ripped off.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] watson540:
im no expert..but from over here it looks like bakntyme just put all of you crybabies in your place

very well said bakntyme. perfect.

p.s. yeah im an asshole. but this asshole can read and troubleshoot and operate electronics all by my big self.

read these forums enough and you will start to think everyone in the world collectively never got out of elementary school

apologies where they are due. but some people are incredible helpless (this last comment has nothing to do with this thread im responding to the guy above who "called me out" for being an (admitted) asshole)
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Sturatt:
unless you guys can come up with some previous claim by HTC that the mogul was supposed to support this specific capability of the chip, i dont see how you guys can try to force anything out of them. I'm with bakntyme on this one.

Sure its pretty crappy that they put the hardware in there and didnt support it, and im no lawyer, but it doesnt seem like they would be under any legal obligation to support the video drivers.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] bakntyme:
Although I appreciate the support, a more professional wording of it might help to keep from increasing the level of emotions and inflammation on this issue.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] timothydonohue:
i heart the mogul, myself. i had a moto q, and i really liked it too, but i kept frying them. i'd go thru it, add everything i wanted, and presto changeo stuck in bootloader, fried. lather rinse repeat. i was on my 3rd q in 3 weeks when i said 'eff this'. i didn't want a machine that was gonna brick every couple days. i then tried a 755p. that took a grand total of 2 days for me to realize that i didn't feel like having to learn another OS. don't get me wrong, some people love palm, but not me. and to be honest, i didn't like the balance of the phone either. however, i did learn that i heart touch screen function a LOT more than anything else. in fact, add a qwerty board, and maybe 2 function buttons, and i think a phone would be perfect. one of the things i wish the mogul had is fewer buttons all over it.

i'd heard about the mogul, and looked into it. i don't think that it is everything in the universe that i want, but i really do like it, and have no room to complain. i like that i can modify it's appearance and function to whatever i want (courtesy of the hard work of members here and ppcgeeks). i've learned how to make my own themes, and do some simple mods myself (although making cooked up kitchens, ROMs, and utilities is way beyond my scope). i've had it for several months, and i don't think i would want another phone, unless it just had fewer buttons, and more screen real estate, but still had a qwerty underneath.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] sol740:
I will chime in and say I'm more dissapointed by the RAM issues than the video. Though I can see the video driver issue being many times easier to resolve. Just release a better video driver and voila. Happy happy, Joy joy.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] GoodThings2Life:
I've read your detailed response, and I still don't understand how you feel lied to or misled. Either they claimed to offer a device with "Doom-capable graphics and memory" (for example), or they didn't. The simple fact remains, no such claim was made until you can quote a live document to prove otherwise.

You also can't use the "you must always use the latest available technology AND support it" argument either. If this were the case every system on the market would always be top-dollar specs at top-dollar prices, and there would be no need for different models and form-factors. It's a subjective setup anyway, because what is best for you isn't necessarily the best for anyone else.

As well, you make the argument that it's like Dell using an Intel chipset and not releasing drivers for it. I started to buy into that, except that nothing stops Intel from writing and releasing drivers for it (they do, in fact, check their website), and on top of that you said the keywords "Dell sells a system advertised with the latest Intel northbridge chipset." At that point, you're right, it's been advertised, so they are obligated to support it.

Finally, the fact of the matter is, as techy as we all are here, if it were as simple as writing a video driver, why hasn't it been done. Very bright people here have unlocked the device, written fixes for bluetooth and keyboards and the like, and yet no video update? The simple fact remains, it might not be as easy as a software update as you wish it to be.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
I'd love to get you more info on the MSM7500, but Qualcomm has nuked their entire www.cdmatech.com website. HTC/Sprint _did_ advertise that our phones have the MSM7x00 chips in them. I think that's akin to Dell advertising a computer with the latest Intel northbridge chipset. The reason that Qualcomm hasn't created drivers, I think, stems from the fact that many programs on our devices(and drivers, I'd assume) are customized for the device. For confirmation of this, see this link: Windows Mobile Team Blog and look for the post titled Why can't I copy programs out of \Windows?.

I'm working today on getting ahold of HTC and Qualcomm and seeing what sort of SDK information I can glean out of them. Perhaps if HTC won't write drivers for us(although I still maintain that they should), we can convince them to open-source certain info about the Mogul and allow us to open-source a set of MSM7500 graphics drivers(and perhaps one for each device that doesn't have said drivers.) I'm not an unreasonable person, I just fail to see how advertising that a device contains a certain chipset (which features hardware acceleration of video, a standard in nearly all computers and many mobile devices) and then not supporting hardware acceleration is right. I agree, however, that I've never seen HTC say that the device had video acceleration, but any reasonable person would assume it did if the chipset supported it, especially since it's a critical part of - what was the phrase I remember hearing - "a rich multimedia experience" (This is quoted on HTC's site a number of times - see the description for the Touch Cruise, etc) I just want to say - I don't claim that writing a video driver is an easy task - it probably isn't... but it's one that should have been done before the phone was released.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] GoodThings2Life:
Well, there's the rub... this is 2008, and I wish I could assume that everyone knows what happens when you assume.............................
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
Except that courts recognize "what a reasonable person would assume" as an actual part of the law. :)
[Mogul, XV6800 General] hohnan:
What is reasonable to one is ridiculous to another.

A friend of mine said it best - "Remember when we were young and you just knew that everybody had the same amount of common sense as you did, then you got older and realized they don't."
[Mogul, XV6800 General] bakntyme:
First, the reason that I seem to think that you might want to sue HTC, is that this thread started with someone asking about the HTCClassAction group; I responded with a comment about the group, followed by one about a flamer; the second sentence of your first post in response to mine was "I can accept that you have a differing viewpoint from us." Some other clips from your first post: "we want the functionality..."; "Many of us did..."; "about us writing...", etc. Since you wrote in the first person plural, how can you now wonder why I thought that you were a member of the HTCClassAction group, or possibly even a spokesperson for the group?

I suggest we completely drop the analogies, and get back to just discussing this situation. Bottom line, the Titan/Mogul/6800 was never advertised with the functionality nor were you in any way promised the functionality. You apparently did not research the chipset and know about the possibility of a different method of acceleration prior to your purchase or prior to hearing about the HTCClassAction group's position, as you accepted Sprint's statement to you "that it was just part of Windows Mobile, and therefore wasn't correctable." You were happy with the device, or at least it was "live-with-able", before hearing about this controversy. So why not stay with that while you continue to work through the Microsoft, HTC and Sprint support lines to try to get the functionality delivered, or at least enough information released, if it is not already available, so that others can develop it. That is fine. This lengthy discussion was started by you apparently supporting the position of the HTCClassAction group; since you now have apparently distanced yourself from that group and its obvious desire to file a class-action suit, we can end the discussion.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
I'd just like to make one last point before we do end this discussion. I did research the chipset and was excited to learn it had video acceleration built in. I even went as far as to differentiate with HTC whether it had an MSM7500(video acceleration hardware) or an MSM7525(no video acceleration hardware) prior to purchase. Their response was that it had MSM7500. It's unthinkable to include video hardware but not a driver when there is another chip that is the same, minus the video hardware.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] bakntyme:
I am not suggesting this is true...but maybe HTC got a clearance price on the chipset because the hardware video acceleration actually does not work? HTC has stated that it is not just a question of providing a driver...
[Mogul, XV6800 General] sabrexx:
I've never seen an advertisement from Intel saying that their processors could do division, but I'm sure people would be quite pissed if it couldn't. They lost 475 million after somebody started up a class action suit against them for the original pentium floating point bug.

Also, writing a video driver is exactly the OPPOSITE of simple. The nvidia driver for vista has over 20 million lines of code. While that is an extreme case, no video driver is easy to write. It would require alot of cooperation from the hardware manufacturers and alot of documentation about the hardware which Qualcomm may be very tight lipped about.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] calash:
There is a level of "Expectation" that exists when viewing details on a product. End users expect that if they are paying for a chip, it will be doing something. To me there is an odd parallel between this and the GPS chip that, up to the recent ROM that was leaked, did nothing but look pretty (From the average End-User view).

I think the question that should be asked is not about the chip, but the performance of the device. Is the device performing to expectations, and is it a logical upgrade to the previous device in the series? Regardless of the chips in the phone, if it is performing well there really is nothing to sue about.

Of course...I would love to get drivers for this..just because I am a tweaker like that :)
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
Hmm. An interesting theory. I don't have a source on this, but I recall their being pressure from consumer groups/FTC/someone on nVidia and ATi a few years back when they named two graphics cards the same, despite the fact that one had much different(and worse) hardware. If HTC or Qualcomm marketed the MSM7500 with video acceleration, and sold it without, that would be a very bad move on their part. I wonder if we can query the device for the hardware... I'm going to investigate that angle.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] bakntyme:
Don't chase it too hard, I meant it as a joke...of course it will be much funnier if it turns out to be true!
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
Hey - it's a stab in the dark, but we've seen worse from hardware manufacturers before, haven't we?:)
[Mogul, XV6800 General] vaxick:
While it isn't the end of the world, I really miss the lack of drivers when trying to surf the web. Pages always chug and the browser locks up while trying to load content because it is struggling trying to render the page. Acts exactly like a PC without video drivers would when trying to run a web browser.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] knives of ice:
how could any mogul user expect the video performance to be worse than the 6700 ?

its much worse and unacceptable.
[Xperia Z3 Tablet Compact Q&A, Help & Troubleshooti] loop_x:
Hey XDA Dev,

I own a Z3TC (SPG612) for a while now. Maybe rooted with the kingroot (don't remember the exact name), didn't unlocked the bootloader, installed TWRP, flashed (well, the current and broken one) to 23.4.A.3.6 (5.1.1 ?) and all was fine for months.

And today, because I saw a stupid supersu notification, I say OK, let's update supersu binary (done that several times without issue).

Well, it ended in a bootloop where I could still use TWRP.

Because I found a thread which say "flash kernel fixed the issue", and because I also read that "recovery is totally separated from main Android and also for Kernel" and also probably because I forgot the weird Xperia recovery install (on the system ? Something like that ...) .. I decided to flash a kernel from a previous backup (after flash, I will remember to always backup .. so 1 before and 1 after ..) with version 23.1.A.0.690.

Definitely, it was the worst idea of the day. Now, I still have bootloop, but I lost the recovery access (no more vibration during bootloop).

For now, I take a break ... The device don't wont to stop with power button and I had to use power-vol+ to "force reset" which bring the tab down. I can still start it and continue the infinite bootloop if required.

I tested USB connection to my Linux (without anything set for not) and I'm not able to get the green light : vol- + connect = red light, green light then off (about 1s).

If I try with vol+, I'm able to get the blue light (not of the death I hope).

So of course, any help would be appreciated.

I am reading this for now : https://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1849170

I also read an article (in french) 2 days ago saying supersu had lots of problems and for Xperia, still not fixed. Well, I go through this (and I get caught).

Am I alone ?

What's your advise ?

Thanks