yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
Ok ladies, here it is...

IF YOU DO NOT DEMAND A QUALITY PRODUCT, YOU WILL NOT GET ONE.

Granted, the Tilt/Kaiser is one of the most integrated pieces of crap available on the market today. On our current course, we will have an even better integrated piece of crap tomorrow, unfortunately, we really don't want an integrated piece of crap, we want a device that was engineered well, both in hardware AND software development phases, not rushed out the door to impress investors with bottom line figures. And unfortunately corperations only speak dollars, it is up to us how to convey our point, either in not purchasing it, or in lawsuits, or what it will cost them in terms of bad PR.

How much it will cost them is how long they will remember what producing a highly integrated piece of crap will affect their 'bottom line'. Personally, being that they have produced an inferior product, we should all be due a refund, and a choice in the matter of not purchasing from them again. But, we don't get to choose what phones our carriers have to offer, so I see this as the only solution to the problem...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] vpoet:
I believe what some are failing to see is that HTC didn't market the TyTN II towards just businesses.

From the HTC TyTN II page:

I purchased a Tilt because it was touted as a powerful device. It appeared to have been when I looked at the specs, when I played with it within the store, and still appears to be one in regards to.. uhm.. waiting for GPS to lock, waiting for IE/Opera to load, etc. The only time this device shows its true strength, outside of talking on the phone, is when I load Java apps (Opera Mini), which are blazingly fast.

400MHz should be enough processor power (even 250MHz should be) to run a dialer without paint issues, to run a single program (not 3) without slowing down tremendously, and to take a damn picture. My whatever-they-could-cram-into-it W300i has a better camera feature-set than the Tilt.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mackaby007:
By the sounds of it, you could have saved yourself a lot of money, as you don't want what the device was advertised of being capable of doing!

P.S. There are many devices that bring all the above mentioned things together in one device. Unfortunately they lack the support of this great forum.

Some peopl and specifically HTC needs to start paying some respect to this site, because I am 100% certain, that HTC products have only been selling so well due to the fact that most consumers of HTC gear already know of this site!

HTC are not the best out there, they are just the best at flooding the market with devices.

They should be thanking XDA-Devs for all they have done for them. Close XDA devs and see how quickly HTC shares would plummet to normality...like E-Ten and i-Mate etc.

Oh as for videoplayback, older HTC PDA/Phones with 200Mhz Omap CPU's do a far better job than this MSM implementation.

Dual CPU's!! ..they boasted....Reality is 1 older CPU with less than 1/2 the power of Qualcomms MSM can outperform it....simply because HTC won't employ the drivers of the hardware.

The Kaiser is so much more than just a business tool, that's why so many have bought it. Other than Qualcomm's chipset what new thing has this device brought to the table over the TyTN I, or X7500?

Nothing...until the the potential of the hardware is being utilised.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mackaby007:
Agreed 100%!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] j.a:
Well said!

In my case it was my whatever-they-could-cram-into-it W600i ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] sahoopes:
No

That is and always will be your choice.

I couldn't/didn't get my Kaiser from my carrier. But that didn't stop me from getting it anyway.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Agreed. For those that say it is a business device, I say I could gotten a Blackberry for much less, including better support from most corporate IT departments PLUS an iPod Touch, or a nice Archos PMP for the same retail price. But according to the specs, this was supposed to be the best of both worlds.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
For those insisting it's a business device, please check out this video I made showing a HTC Magician & a HTC TyTn II running TomTom 6 in tandem.

And you can't say it's not designed to run TomTom, as it bloody well SHIPS with it!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
Why not? I feel HTC is negligent in advertising the capablilities of a device, and when put to the test, the device did not perform. The recent removal of the chipset documentation only stands to fortify my position on this as it shows deception on part of HTC and their relationship with Qualcomm, and shame on Qualcomm for participating in deceptive busniness practices by removing the documentation.

Actually, it was my carriers choice to purchase it, I chose this device because of it's specs and the trust of at&t producing a quality product (coverage), they do not let you 'test drive' the device when activated, therefore, the device did not produce the stall of the UI, and there is no way to get any media on the device to test to test HTC's claims.

The what was the reason you chose the kaiser?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
It does not matter what the device was intended for, it is a fact that it does not stand up to specs.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] sahoopes:
I bought from a dealer in unlocked phones. Money to HTC either way.

Because

I was impressed with the T-Mobile MDA (also not a "perfect" device) and wanted another HTC product.

GPS

The memory, OS, HTC's enhancements to the OS and other bundled apps.

The support of all the wonderful XDA contributors

And because I didn't want to have to carry around 8 or more gadgets I need to cover all the possibilities of when I need a camera, when I need to check my email, when I need to call someone, when I need navigation, when I need to jot down some notes, blah blah blah.

I certainly did not do as much research as you and others did before buying. But I had a good experience with the MDA. But I did not specifically buy it for high quality video playback which explains my lack of sympathy.:o

The MDA had many faults, some of which were obviously HTC design flaws. I found much support here back then but I do not remember those problems generating as much fervor as what we have now.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Dover:
I don't agree with all this stuff about it not being a "business" device. First of all, I don't think it's any one user's place to tell another user which parts of the device he or she is allowed to use for what purpose. Second, are you assuming by "business" that every user is an accountant who works in an office and looks at spreadsheets all day? There are other kinds of business besides those that happen from 9-5, M-F. There are many legitimate reasons why a person might want video playback for work purposes, don't assume this is a time-wasting feature only used by those who are slacking off.

And besides all that, I don't need video that often, I'm more annoyed at the general graphical sluggishness of the UI than anything else.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
'Fervor' as you call it, is what is required to effect change and will impact shareholder bottom line, this has all been set in motion already, and about all HTC can do to save face is fix the damn thing and display a good attitude in doing it, though I would venture to say that they might implement something within their company to prevent this from happening again, this would undoubtedly mean a better device in the future, and insure consumer loyalty ultimately to increase the value of their shares, they just need to remember that when the customer is happy, so is the shareholder, and putting the shareholder is front of the customer is not a bright move.

In all I would not want to own a company that intentionally created a product the people are not happy with, nor do I think they really set out the screw the public, with consideration of the bottom line being impacted I would say they would not, but to release a product that does not measure up to it's specs most probably to push up the 07's ledger, is an insult to everyone that bought one and is also a kick in the shin to a shareholder.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] marm0lade:
I didn't read through every post so maybe this has already been mentioned. The OP wants someone to show him a device that is just as capable as the Tilt. Well you don't have to look very far, bud:

i-Mate Ultimate 9502

http://www.gsmarena.com/i_mate_ultimate_9502-2158.php

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT USES THE SAME CHIPSET AS THE TILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND IT HAS A VGA SCREEN!!!!!

Stop telling us what we can and cannot use our devices for. Just bc you don't need video acceleration doesn't mean others don't. End of story.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] smittyofdhs:
if these guys who are complaining spent $1000 or more on their device, then they are stupid ****s for paying that munch to begin with. I paid $149 (US Dollars) and for 149 bucks, I got more then enough with it.

I've used PDAs and PPCPEs for years and years, and there's never going to be a perfect device.

I saw a thread today where the guy was *****ing about HTC and how they rushed this out the door just to impress investors. Do you have any concept of business dude? there are 100s of other factors that need to be taken into account, such as overbudget on R&D can cause a design team to pull certain aspects of the the original concept to keep the project within budget limits. Yes it may not have the best video in the world, but it does about 1000x more stuff then the competition's phones....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
First off, I very much doubt anyone payed over $1000, as this is more than the normal store price.

Second, you might want to investigate how your service provider operates. You may have payed only 149 dollars when you got it, but you will pay much more before your contract ends. You have your phone for something like normal price + 10% (or more depending on provider) - $149 upfront.

People who buy the device completely upfront in the end pay less. That's just how it works. It's not unheard of for people to buy the device and pay $10 per month for 300 minutes and a truely unlimited data plan.

This device could be a whole lot more perfect than it is now though.

I find it hard to imagine that implementing a driver PROVIDED BY Qualcomm is a big deal. I doubt they don't get the necessary stuff from Qualcomm if they licensed the hardware for millions and millions of dollars.

Yah. That'd be nice if it were even remotely true. The LG KS20 does everything the Kaiser does, and BETTER, with the same chipset. It doesn't have a keyboard, but OK. The new i-Mate ultimate will have the keyboard and the same chipset, if that does provide the drivers, it will beat the Kaiser in every possible way. Do I need to go on?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Steve-C:
Errr...I am the OP, and I didn't want another device, I just wanted clarification on the issues since the PIE issue didn't effect me, the video issue didn't effect me and frankly none of the issues here effect ME and the way I use my Kaiser! The graphics issue doesn't effect everyone, only those that demand a certain level of performance. I'm glad that a few people have replied here with the voice of wisdom and realised that not everyone wants the same thing and are happy with what the device delivers.

Where do I tell you what to use your device for?! I don't. My last post actually acknowledges the fact that to get what I want out of the device, I have to compromise and that I'm ok with that. It also acknowledges the fact that others don't want that compromise, and want the device to perform as it should (in theory) be capable of and are not ok with the fact it doesn't. I even closed my post wishing people luck in their chosen courses of action and hoping they get the result they want! Please don't tell me to stop doing something I haven't done, when what I have really done is say the device does X & Y, others say it only does X and I don't understand the issue. Fortunately some posters have enlightened me, so whilst I'm happy with the way my device does X & Y I wish luck to the people fighting to get the device to do Y the way they want it.

Now as a side issue, if HTC do provide the drivers and fix these issues, will the device be working harder to provide the result? I'm not really that involved in IT to know, but I would have thought that if the processor or whatever is operating to peak functionality, there is the possibility the device will run hotter. If HTC do fix this issue, and the device ends up shutting down every 30 min for thermal protection what do we do then? [SARCASM] ***** about it until HTC provide a cooling pack add on?! [/SARCASM MODE]

Seriously though, use GPS & WiFi and the device gets hot, I'm sure I've seen some posts where the device shut off to cool down. Could improved graphics drivers result in you being unable to use WiFi at the same time for risk of heat damage?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] smittyofdhs:
I have a solution for you then...

Sell your Kaiser on ebay, buy whatever phone makes you happy, and stop *****ing and moaning in these threads about something you have no control over. No amount of petitions, phones calls, or pissing and moaning will make HTC put out a fix any faster.

I bet we will never see any update and the next phone that comes out, everyone will piss and moan about some defuct function in it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] briggs81:
I do believe Undac just won first place in this topic.

p.s. lol@anyone who thinks business nowadays consts of email/spread sheets/word docs.

yeah, i do a lot of spread-sheeting in the web development world.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] briggs81:
What an original reply. You totally came back with something to destroy what he came up with, which all happened to be quite relevant.

This is like when I went to my doctor and I told him I had a sore neck, he said to stop picking things up.

Yeah, I'll get right on that.

Good job, Straw-man.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Hey, it's that nice guy again.

Oh you really had me on the edge of my seat waiting for a reply here.

Yup sell the phone, it's gone down 2000 kronor (that's about 285 US bucks) since I first bought it.

And mine is used so I'll probably get what, like maximum 3500 kronor (500 bucks) for it.

So I've lost 500 bucks. Just like that, threw 'em out.

If I had known of the endless widsom you are now providing me with earlier in my life I could have been a great man.

It's a great and sound practice. Buying expensive stuff and selling it cheap because the manufacturer couldn't be bothered with making their product work properly.

Personally I actually do think the driver will get shipped. I don't think we will get the full set of hardware accelerated GDI/DDI/DirectDraw/OpenGLES/GAPI/Direct3DMobile drivers. I think we will get one or two of them. And if we get them you can bet my sweet ass (seeing as it no longer belongs to me) that it will be because of the riot "we" started.

In any case, this is a great way of passing time. Allowing me to express the inner anguish of my anus in a foreign language. Meeting new people and stuff. I like it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Nick Collision:
OT

Meeting new people and showing your ass to them.... great pass-time in any language. LOL

Seriously tho.... this HAS been fun to watch if you need a little geeky drama in your life.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] s1lverf0x:
lol... But seriously...

I was practically "groomed" into falling in love with this phone because it was stated as being a power house. I thought the thing would be perfect in my own little head (listening to music, playing games, watching vid's, and using an ultra fast and reliable pda-phone). Now what I have here in reality is a phone that is just "meh!" with the exception of the sound quality. It's slugish, runs GPS sluggish, runs it own software sluggishly... are we getting the picture here? It's sluggish, and sometimes (not all the time mind you) it gets sooo sluggish that the touch screen doesn't respond very well...

now if your a business user who needs a phone thats fast and responsive? and this kind of problem is happening on your phone, what would you do? Honestly? Most would just get rid of it or pass it to someone else for fear of spending a bit of money on a sluggish product.

So it would be nice if this issue was finally identified by HTC and the issue resolved, cause at the end of this noise being made, there is diffenetly a benefit.

Some people are happy with their phones the way they are. fine. I'm actually ok with mine (I can live with the sluggishness). But if HTC can listen and at least ADDRESS these issue's it would lead to happier people all round. But one thing I guess people don't want is to get ratty and loose sight of what the aim is supposed to be. which is to get HTC to recognise that a portion of us, whilst we love whats on the tech sheet and was told about this all signing and dancing phone, is not happy that it's not quite doing what it said on the tin.

PS: Ever tried using your computer without graphics drivers on XP or Vista? Still generates the same amount of power consumption, oh and the computer runs erm... Sluggish!

Now theres an interesting thought :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Actually it often tends to consume even more power since no drivers usually tend to mean that powersaving functionality is not activated.

Plus, if the driver is there and the card accelerated the functionality it's supposed to it's often much more energy efficient than doing the same stuff on the CPU.

:)

(Not that I know the specifics of the Imageon tech but I'm fairly confident that it's more efficient than runningthe same stuff on the general purpose CPU.)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Under normal circumstances (that is, using the device exactly as you are using it now), it is very likely that the device will work 'less hard', because it's using hardware built for the purpose. Generally speaking, specialized hardware is much more efficient to do what it is built to do than a generic processor (like a CPU) is. So this would most likely result in less heat and, not unimportantly, less power consumption.

However, depending on the power of the specialized hardware, if you use it to it's full potential, it could easily trump the generic hardware in power consumption (and thus heat). It depends on the use. As right now it seems HTC never even considered putting the drivers in, it a good question if they took the extra heat into consideration.

It may well be that this will result, when you are using your device to it's maximum potential, in overheating. However it is also possible that HTC has always hoped they could supply the drivers someday and have taken it into account.

It is simply impossible to really know right now.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Many threads on this forum are carrying the same theme.

I agree we are lacking the drivers and I am dissapointed that it should perform better with the hardware specs this device has. It is not only effecting video playback, GPS map-draw is slow, running any other app in the background of a video virtually stops the device (this is apparent with certain today screen apps that poll radio devices or power functions regularly).

The thing that seems to be coming to light if you do some serious web searching is that because of a certain chipset manufacturer's (beginning with Q!!) OEM driver license charges, a certain device manufacturer (beginning with H) made the commercial descision to omit them and provide us with a unit costing around $800.

I have a feeling that many would not have purchased this device if 'H' had paid 'Q' what they asked and we had a fully working device for $1200.

Admittedly, saying that it has HW acceleration, whilst not being able to USE that HW is technically wrong, but we have all fallen foul of executive minds at some time or other.

The reality is.. the pressure this forum and other users around the globe put on said company begining with 'H', MAY HOPEFULLY urge them to take a cut in profits (they will never lose!) and put their hands in their pockets and pay 'Q' for the license and produce an updated ROM. Thus saving the even MORE prospective future product sales losses from disgruntled users..:o

EDIT: What we really need to do is channel all the petetion/driver funds into one, and offer them as a reward to a 'Q' company mole to release the drivers on the web. This would then prevent this sort of 'Blackmail' to the end consumer in the future..:confused::confused:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Nick Collision:
Farsquidge: I love your posts, they are always a good read, but I must quibble.

Saying that is has HW acceleration whilst not being able to use it is not just technically wrong, it is morally, ethically and legally wrong. Here in the USA we have laws regarding having "truth in advertising". In essence if what you promise in the pre-sale information does not represent the product delivered, that is considered fraud.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] redsrule2500:
Um....web pages are still slow to scroll when there are images on them.

I stil can't play a standard AVI file on my Kaiser without lowering bitrate/resolution. An ipod can play it though.

Complete utter BS.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Cheers for the comment about my posts. allways try to promote disscusion and will admit when wrong...

I am in total agreement with all to do with the drivers but to my comment, that I tried to put over is that we are all victims of marketing. Anyone can say it has HW acceleration, but saying it USES HW acceleration is not implied in H's bumph!

As I said in the rest of my post, H have now been found out! It would cost anyone Million's in legal fee's to take them to court but what people are doing here does not cost anyone any real money but will hit them HARD in PR and future sales.

Which do you think they are concerned with? Offsetable court costs or shareholders watching sales fall?? :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] phan10m:
Thats a great way to think about it
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
I just looked it up, here are the benchmarks from a Qualcomm MSM7200 presentation slide:

OpenGL ES Software QVGA 320x240

157mA (with Sound) @ 18fps

OpenGL ES Hardware QVGA 320x240

117mA (with Sound) @ 65fps

Guess that settles it :) (less mA = less heat)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Nick Collision:
And much better FPS. <sigh>
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
And I am sure 'H' are fully aware of this.

Chainfire, is there any possibility of putting a 'selected comments' on your HTCClassAction.org with a caveat that this should be taken on-board by 'H' PR people??

I was just thinking you could select the most damaging comments you find anywhere to tag to this as 'Customer Research' that 'H' are not doing themselves.

This would allow you to give ANY comments you see fit within reason without providing technical backup and suffering any legal reaction from 'H'.

Product evaluation with the customer is paramount for future business projections and if others apart from 'H' can see this (sending to their own support site is not seen by anyone else!!) it will surely hit their share price!! :D:D:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Post that in the HTCClassAction.org topic and see what others think :)