yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
I actually didn't post alot in this thread purposely, because while I do have issues, as you have pointed out,there are people who are quite happy with their devices. The only reason I jumped back in was your insistence of tying "benchmarking", (which is irrelevant to the driver ommission issue) to this topic.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] myk_83:
Flashing with a cooked ROM would void people's warranties, thus any further problems with the phones would not be covered. The point of this whole thing is, that HTC should have a solution for this, and it should be there to begin with, and not require us to flash cooked ROMs onto our devices.

If a cooked ROM does make the devices better and satisfactory for everyone, then it should be fairly simple for a company like HTC to apply the same fixes in their own ROMs and release an "official" one for those that like to keep things safe (and I use that term loosely) that way. Then people can update properly and everyone will be happy. However, as stated by several people before, it doesn't seem like simple software tweaks that can be applied in this manner will fix the problem of a generally slow device, emphasized by video/graphics viewing.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cgcmd:
HTC Reply in query of Driver and WM6.1

Thank you for your email dated 02/03/2008 which brings up your comment for our attention. We are sorry to inform you that there's no development of WM6.1 ROM and video acceleration hardware driver for TyTN II in progress. Your valuable comments will be passed to the related department for service improvement.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
They are trying to stall us . . . Clarfire are you gonna sue? I heard in some thread that you where gonna sue.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ponicg:
Nobody is trying to make anyone wait forever. Give Chainfire a bit of time. I'm sure he's working on getting things setup.

As for the whole benchmarking thing - You guys need to stop arguing with each other in snippy little catfights. Argue the point, not the person. IHMO, benchmarking is irrelevant if the device is sloggy and slow. I'll admit that I hate how slow the Mogul is most of the time - It takes me a good 3 or 4 seconds to switch orientations, more if I'm in PIE or Opera or something else. PIE rendering is also crap, but Opera does a somewhat better job. I think we need to continue pushing for drivers for the chips that are in our phones.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
1) Class Actions like this take a year or so to reach court.

2) Even if the aim is to avoid court but to ensure HTC know that you are serious (and thus force them to go to the expense of resolving the drivers issue), HTC have made it obvious that you are not going to see any development as things stand today.

3) If my device took "three seconds to change orientation" and I was scared to flash a cooked rom, I would take it straight back to the retailer/network andean my money back.

oh and 4) Benchmarking and thus getting some sort of quantifiable look at the scope of the problem is a lot more worthwhile than popping up on this thread and saying "when arewe going to sue?"
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
And yet you're still here. Why exactly is that? No one's asking you to stick around, and you said you would leave.

By the way, I think maybe I'll Find a program that can measure how much light is reflected by the hardkeys and then we can all post what our values are. It'd be about as relevant as your incomplete and meaningless benchmarking tests.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I will repeat this just once more.

The unhappiest Kaiser owners are claiming that their devices take a few seconds to change orientation or to draw their screens. Mine changes within a split second. It always has.

Those of us who are happy with our devices are saying that sounds like there is something specifically wrong with either your devices or your roms or with a piece of third party software that is causing the slowness.

I am not saying that the drivers are not missing. I am not saying that the drivers would not make a huge difference to gaming etc.

What I am saying (and the research so far is backing it up) is that the people who are complaining the most are getting considerably lower benchmark scores than the people who are happy with their devices.

Net result - those of you who reckon your devices are that slow could easily do something about it whilst waiting for a class action to either go ahead - or more likely be dropped some months down the line.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Enough already, please. I found Chainfires last comments to be difinitive that this benchmark test you have proposed is fruitless and those comments on their own prove he has much more experience in these matters. The other points you keep rehashing have all been discussed many times over and you have yet to answer the question of how this relates to real world usage. As I siad, if you can't explain it to a crowd of techie, what good is it to a court of law, or a jury non-techies.

In addition, if you want to collect benchmarks, I suggest you crack open a statistics 101 book because the sample size and diversity you will get form this forum is going to tell you absolutely nothing. It will NOT be statistically relevant even if every person on the forum were to post their results. HTC sold 11.8 million units last year. The number of active users on this forum is about 127,000. Do some math, it's only 1%.

In short, you are just chasing your tail and wasting people's time.

I am asking nicely, please let it go. My next request will be to the moderators. If you want to collect benchmarks, then please start a new thread and have fun.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Wrong. Statistical sample size would apply if we'd be "benchmarking" people's reqctions or feelings. These are devices that are built 100% the same, with few minor deviations that have no effect whatsoever on what we are trying to check. Even though 1 device may be defective and probalby not a good sample size due to probability, when you take 10-20 devices out of 1.8 million that are identical (chipset-wise) that's a perfectly good sample and it's a very good representation of the average Kaiser device. Need I say that those 10-20 devices are from diverse environments, different countries, carriers and so on.

Just because you just took statistics in college doesn't mean that you are now a statistics expert.

Zomg, beware. He is asking nicely. Next thing you know he TALKS TO A MODERATOR!!

*runs and hides*

Now if you don't have any serious information to contribute to our search for a solution, shut up and browse other threads.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Zman28SS:
DarkDvr this does not change the fact that unwired4 has hijacked this thread from its true purpose:

1. form and execute a plan of action

2. provide support for those involved in action

As Chainfire has said, these benchmarks are useless for our cause. Again the issue has been stated countless times and can be read from the htcclassaction.org site.

unwired4, if you have nothing else to "discuss" please leave this thread and start another like you said you would. Thank you.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] forcedalias:
I'm so glad we're fighting amongst ourselves now.

Has HTC sent a spy to infiltrate and sabotage efforts or something?!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Zman28SS:
I know right? ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I already did... and I wish you luck. If you get bored of the "have we sued them yet" posts, feel free to pop over to the gruesome thread and help us build up a useful database of device speeds.

Who knows we may make 0.01 percent of Kaiser owners happier...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I'm not unwired4's lawyer and I hate it just as much when he is spreading offtopic. However, the post in question had some valid points to it, and that's what I was discussing.

Regarding the benchmarks - as much as I respect Chainfire as a developer, he is not GOD Almighty. I consider these benchmarks very much relevant to the case of bashing Kaiser and saying that it's a "piece of crap" PPC. Of course running it on every Kaiser is useless, but at least now we have more info on the performance of Kaiser and perhaps a tool that will help us compare later on. I do not see any problem in this.

Anyway. I shouldn't contribute to offtopic. Back to the point.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Some very good posts in here. I am going to update the site in a minute with another link to press coverage ( http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/17/htc_chipset_anger/ ), add the newest responses from HTC, and remove the PIE video as it's not really correct.

In the meantime, read this (yeah I'm quoting myself from another topic):
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Boinng:
Apologist BS, if you don't mind me saying. These are complex devices; you can't possibly "test drive" every function of a phone like this in the shop. What are you going to do, turn up to the store with a stack of your favourite DVDs to rip? A handful of games to try out? Of course not. You check all the basics, you read the (glowing) reviews, if you're lucky you might get to handle one in a shop, but underlying weaknesses like we're talking about here don't show up immediately. They aren't always obvious.

I like my Tytn II a great deal, I'm very happy with most aspects of it, but the video problem is real and needs fixing. It's not reasonable for HTC to advertising this device in the way that it does and not supply such core functionality.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] HeatWave:
Indeed a lot of BS!

This device is built with a specific chipset in it, one to support HD video, 3D gaming. All is there, except for the friggin driver to activate it all.

If they would have built it with just an OMAP proc we would have paid 100 dollars less for it orso.

We paid for the hardware so it should work.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Update the website. Next thing will probably make a page about things you could/should include when contacting HTC.

Also got some more sites to send the pressrelease to, which I will do shortly.

I just received an email from someone in Taiwan willing to invest some time in researching the possibilities of a lawsuit there.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
A tutorial for contacting HTC and the carriers would be great.

I have a slight feeling that quite a few people have just e-mailed HTC asking for a driver. That will never work.

They need tangible evidence of the syptoms we are experiencing and instructions on how to reproduce those symptoms.

I also think a lot of users miss to point out to HTC that the performance issues also affect every day use such as scrolling lists, and rendering simple 2D-applications etc.

The only thing that have caught their attention as of yet judging by their recent replies is that video playback is flawed. In order for a full driver sollution to be provided they need to know of the 3D-issues, touchscreen issues, scrolling issues etc.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
I added a page ("What to tell HTC") with some tips, pointers and explenations about what to say. Please comment on it :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Well also add http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1825370&postcount=172 this very interesting response.

EDIT: Done! Seems we are getting places!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] None01:
Really nice work Chainfire, I am linking to the website from where I can.

And I have also written a small article on a big danish community driven news site http://newz.dk/htc-brugere-har-faaet-nok so that people in denmark also get to know about the issue.

I have also contacted a person that will ask the danish technical department of htc (not support :) ) if they know anything.

The problem is that people buy these devices and think that it's normal that they are that slow, because they never had a windows mobile device before.

I too thought so until I started reading the threads in this forum.

To all PLEASE post the link to htcclassaction.org everywhere you can, we all just want to get what we have paid for!

Please keep op the good work, I can feel that this will make a difference.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mindbeat:
What is not correct about the PIE video? I can change the information if I have wrote some information thats incorrect.

Anyway, I think is a good way to show that everything isnt alright with the kaiser.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Gotanius:
class action in holland won't work, cause our lawsystem isn't made for it.

in holland it's more 1 person vs another. not so much groups, unless they are a foundation of some sort.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Yes we already know this, which is why we're looking at the USA and Taiwan :) (as I've already answered you in PM)

Though there is something like the "Wet collectieve afwikkeling massaschade" here, it's probably better to do one of the above.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Gotanius:
yeah i read the PM after i posted this hehehe.

hmmm well the problem is that first you need to prove damage. unfortunately not being able to play a movie etc. will not result in direct damage.

so the best thing to do is to eventually sue the shopkeeper for 'wanprestatie', and demand repair free of charge or annul the agreement and get your money back.

unfortunately it's pretty expansive to file a lawsuit in holland, even with 'rechtsbijstand' (kind of insurance for lawproblems) it'll still cost a lot of time to say the least.

just my 2cts but keep up the good work
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] giojoe:
I'am a german lawyer and have some rudimental knowledge of the class action system in the USA. And i have good contacts to american lawyers and to one of the best german law schools in Germany (Uni Heidelberg).

So if you don't have any chance for getting this to an american lawyer or big office contact me.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Again as said in PM, this is not about getting money back or any of that. It's only to get HTC to supply drivers and support their products. The lawsuit is still a way off, and since the site launched less than 48 hours ago, HTC support's attitude has already changed somewhat for the better. So we're already going in the good direction. Some more exposure on some big sites will raise the chances HTC will issue a statement or release the fix ASAP to save face.

Ultimately, all we want is the drivers. Our goal is not to sue HTC, it's to get our devices to work properly, which may make that a necessary step. I'm sure as hell not going to sue some poor shop owner over it :) It's publicity that will fix this, not the lawsuit itself.

Which is why everyone should do their best to get this issue out in the open!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Gotanius:
no cure no pay system, I hope?

else it might get way expensive.

I totally agree, just gave you the heads-up on how it would work Holland ^_^

hmm perhaps get this to ars technica? they are widely known and read/visited.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] private69:
For All

Hello,

Look an another article for Plaint of HTC driver.

http://www.theinquirer.fr/2008/01/1...s_graphiques_de_mobiles_htc.html#comment-9498

Found it on google.news

Private69.

@++++
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] giojoe:
I think the best way to force HTC is an opinion of an university professor for laws.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] :
EDIT: Oops, I guess this is old news.

Here's a link to the el Reg news rag

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/17/htc_chipset_anger/

I'm not sure that legal action will do anything, but I am quite impressed one of my favorite news sites picked this up.

This kind of media attention is exactly what is needed to embarrass HTC into a response.

I had my reservation before, but I think this little website has achieved something monumental.

-James
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
We have not found a US lawyer to look at this yet, if you yourself (with your knowledge) or one of these lawyers you know could for now just take a quick look at this, and tell us what they think (it it's viable, what it would cost etc), that would already be a giant leap forward. Then we can take the next step, if needed.

EDIT: I see your university of law opinion... it would be great if that could be arranged.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
Chainfire,

As promised, please find below a video of a Magician and a TyTn II running TomTom 6 side by side. It really is awful...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJWAu6IRe4

Feel free to add it to the website.

This video was made with TomTom running in demo mode, and with no other apps running on either device to eliminate as much overhead as possible, including GPS polling.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
The tension! The pressure!

Hehe.. actually, it's normal.. we're all anxious and angry, so yelling at each other is expected behavior. I wish there was an HTC help-line where we would just call and yell for 30 minutes to vent haha :D

Back to the point!! Baby steps people... keep googling the issue.. possible solutions, insights..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] potpeye:
Anyways question for you techies. I recently been using tcmp with HSPDA internet watching videos online. My kaiser would go into a extreme heat mode where the back gets soo hot that i could fry a egg. Is this something because the video or whatever is being proccessed by the CPU instead of hardware acceleration. Would a hardware accelerated driver would cause the heat be soo much less dramatic cause CPU isnt working over time?

ignore this question if u don't think it shouldn't be in this forum topic i just post elsewhere.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chalky:
Benchmark from Hermes (Vario 2) WM6

Summary final score 1550

See link

http://cleanimport.xda/index.php?posts/1900827/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unksr00t:
IMO.. The main source of heat is coming from the HSDPA connection.. However better drivers could perhaps reduce the CPU load but not to a degree that it would feel any colder.

$0.02
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mastra:
I see a lot of complaints about HTC p3650 (Touche Cruise). what is the best alternative to HTC p3650???
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I have to agree - HSDPA is heating up the processor to the point where you can really feel it. It's not a "burn", it's just very warm. Seems like a normal operation to me, actually.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
So Chainfire......

Once Chinese New Year passes, will we hear more from you about the status of this case and what our next course of action will be?

This has been WAY too quiet lately.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Actually everyone in this thread has been somewhat civil. Except unwired4 who, out of desperation to convince himself HTC hasn't screwed him over with their time-to-market devices, has gone from slandering everyone to being a genuine thread hogger.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgmdean:
While the radio stage seems to be able to generate noticeable heat, so does the CPU and the charge circuit. SO, try watching a DivX video over a high speed cell link, and charging the battery at the same time and see if you can still hold the device... ;) The heat all seems to come out in the similar area behind the battery :eek:, maybe because the components use the chassis as a heat sink and the largest chunk is there?

Also if you do the experiment above and your unit RLoD's, please let us know... :D (Hey, it might provoke my suspected power circuit flaw!)

James
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
@jgermuga

I'm not going to quote and argue your statements - too much trash for this thread.

Simply put, these benchmarks are made to be a baseline of current condition of Kaisers that community owns. And yes, they are a perfectly good representative sample. I already explained why in my prevois post - if you still can't understand why, read it over and over, and eventually it will dawn on you.

When we will have possible solutions to the issue - we will do the same round of benchmarks and see if there is a difference.

Oh, and gruesome thread is not mine, although I don't see any problem in it. Apparently, it gives you hatefull chills.

Now, back to the topic.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] potpeye:
My device didnt RLoD but it did stop my usb from charging. Had to let device cooldown a lot before it would start charging again :P Maybe with a bit more pwr to keep the device streaming i could have dmg something it was way too hot seriously.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Hehe, nah, it never gets hot enough for RLoD or any other kind of death. I've done some experimentation (nope, it didn't blow... yet) and analysis and posted a separate thread with that.. hopefully we can get closer to understanding the problem. Doubt it can be fixed though... but who knows.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] invasion13:
Hi,

Dont worry if HTC wont listen to our legitimate yearnings !

the future will be bright but without HTC !

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/10/sonyericsson-xperia-x1-qwerty-with-windows-mobile/

regards
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Gluzko:
^ yeah i was looking at it too.. second half of 08 sweet :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
TOO BAD HTC MAKES IT!!!!!!!!!

Sorry guys, but they own us. At every turn, at every corner, our Taiwanese Overlords at High Tech Computer own us.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Are you kidding? The Xperia madby HTC for Sony Ericsson? :(

One off my wish list than. Back to the Meizu M8. At least those Chinese might care about their customers on a long term hopefully.

Anyway, as I wrote towards Gardner on CNET , it is just a matter of time before ALL mob. devices will be produced AND developped in China.

HTC loose his competitive advantage
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
But isn't Taiwan just a rogue province of China?

It's a sad day when someone from an island most famous for the freedoms bought about by:

Says that the best in Windows Mobile phones will soon come from:

PS: You better not be Pan-Green.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Nick Collision:
Bump

I know this thread has degenerated into petty squabbles, but I bump this to draw attention to the original post. Maybe get this back on topic.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Yes, lets get back on topic, before we all die of starvation of drivers. What other option could their be? We have tried almost everything for the drivers(porting some and adding some .ddl's) and a lawsuit, but what else could their be? A petition is a start but we need something that is so powerful yet needs less resources and is just right under the lawsuit level, what could that be? A boycott wouldn't help because people would always buy from them, they have a big portion of the market and we(the ones that are frustrated by this) are only like 25% of the market portion and only like 5% of that would boycott so what could we do!??
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wonderiuy:
Check this ATI answer:

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1913787&postcount=182
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] meeek:
So, there's a no-go on the lawsuit?

I've read every page in this thread and didn't see anything about it being called off or anything like that.

Edit: What ever happened to that guy in new york? Has anyone actually tried contacting him?