yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
Well its a bit of a shaggy dog story. When I first got the tytn 2 I felt that it wasn't as nippy out of the box when compared to the hermes. At this point I was using black shadow and had lots of stuff installed including today plugins etc...

I figured it just needed tweaking and so lots of tweaks later and brought up to similar specs with regards to programs I still felt, and it maybe it was a perception, that the kaiser was slower. Me being a simpleton I just assumed it was me.

This all happened months ago (I got my kaiser early oct). Unfortunately that spv was hard reset, simplified a lot (my wife has no need for all my programs/games) and so its not set up like the kaiser...and there are days I look very jealously at the near instant transitions etc... I've even simplified the kaiser's today screen (goodbye spb diary and pocketplus tabs) to no avail and lets not even start about the camera.

In retrospect what I SHOULD have done was run some benchmarks as soon as I got the kaiser and once I'd installed all my progs...but hey ho the retrospectoscope is a wonderful thing.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greenbrd:
Not to focus purely on video playback, but my Tilt straight out of the box woefully underperforms my five-year old Dell Axim. When I take the time to downsample movies, they play *about* the same, though the Dell doesn't tear as much. However, when somebody emails me a 30-second, 2MB WMV file, my Dell plays it flawlessly but the Tilt can't even play half of the frames.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] pjam:
Response from T-Mobile UK

Thank you for your email about the Vario 3, I'm sorry to hear you are not happy with the video capabilities on it.

We are aware of the issue with the qualcomm video drivers you mentioned and have spoke to HTC on behalf of our customers regarding this. HTC have responded with the official statement below.

Public Reactive Statement From HTC ? Jan. 22, 2008

In response to recent customer complaints about poor video performance on HTC devices based on the latest Qualcomm MSM7xxx chipsets, HTC is providing the following statement.

HTC is committed to delivering a portfolio of devices that offer a wide variety of communication, connectivity and entertainment functionality. HTC does not offer dedicated or optimized multimedia devices and can confirm that its Qualcomm MSM7xxx-based devices do not use ATI?s Imageon video acceleration hardware.

HTC believes the overall value of its devices based on their combination of functionality and connectivity exceeds their ability to play or render high-resolution video. These devices do still provide a rich multimedia experience comparable to that of most smartphones and enable a variety of audio and video file formats.

HTC values its customers and the overall online community of mobile device enthusiasts and fans. HTC plans to include video acceleration hardware in future video-centric devices that will enable high-resolution video support.

I'm sorry I did not have better news for you on this occasion, if I can be of any further assistance please don't hesitate to contact us again.

So much for mobile operators putting pressure on them. Never mind.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
That's strange because T-Mobile's spec sheet says the Vario III is a "movie player". Their website further states (emphasis mine):

In a twist of irony, HTC's Vario III press release states (emphasis mine):
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] internetadam4657:
^^^

that to me looks like false advertisement in my books! if the class action suit gets no where, we could bring forth charges if we need to go that route we could get them at least for false advertisement since the carriers and even HTC themselves have advertised (explicitly stated or implied) that the device (tytn II/tilt/kaiser in this case) have greatly improved functionality and as was stated previously i think we have the right to expect our brand new devices to perform better than our older devices. my htc wizard has better UI response than the kaiser does, which is VERY pathetic.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] briggs81:
Holy crap :O I should have bought that. Bah...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NewForce:
I'm fully supporting Chainfire and everybody frustration over HTC TytnII/Kaiser video driver issue

But, what if HTC, a giant corporation got pissed-off by this action of users, and at the same they feel they should not be offended, and decided not to release the new video driver for TytnII/Kaiser, Touch Dual/Cruise even if they already completed it development? Acting just like their Taiwan authorities, twist and turned behavior?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] karelb:
I am now the 'proud' owner of a HTC Touch Cruise. I really like the phone, although it might be a little slow compared to older devices. The one thing i hate is that i can't even play streaming video of 500 kbps smoothly. Nothing hi res, but just a video a 4 year old devices can play smoothly. Its not a 300 MB Divx file, just a simple 500 kbps video. I'm using wifi to watch, so it has nothing to do with bandwidth.

It works fine on my old pda, so why not on my brand new PDA-phone? HTC, shame on you.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Congratulations on your new device and for not letting ego get in the way of acknowledging and demanding HTC fix all their Qualcomm based devices. As you are probably aware, pleas have been made by the thousands but HTC says you should buy their next model.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Mack5305:
They lied to the retailers and public about the multimedia capabilities of this model. :mad:

What's to keep them from lying about the next "improved" model? :confused:

Note: They did not say which "future model" will be improved. Maybe some model made in a distant 6-8 years.... :rolleyes:

Mack
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] OpenGL32:
LG KS20 is using the same chipset called msm7200. it use the acceleration, but you've got several problems by active hardware drivers, becouse you're not able to run tomtom 6 or anything using software acceleration...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Unless you have something constructive to offer, please stop posting here. Your opinions have already been discussed ad naseum and you are neglecting to look at the bigger picture. There is ample room for interpretation, and although you may see nothing wrong with the behaviour of said company, there are thousand that do.

I have long since given up hope that anything will be done to fix the problem, but I honestly believe this company has done a disservice to it's customers, not only through the initial hype that was generated, but in it's subsequent actions. They made record profits on their new line of products and are continuing to ship them to unwitting customers. I think they need to be formally called into question on that behavior. The proper way to hande this is through the legal system.

You seem to think it OK for big corporations to squash individuals. Let us all hope everyone does not adopt your attitude or we have much bigger problems on our hands that watching "The Office" reruns or playing Quake on our Kaiser.

Your arguing here is counter productive and is borderline trolling. There is a thread that pertains to your view. Please be considerate to the participants of this thread and post there.

Thanks
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
I know it may be difficult to do so. But a regular update might do a lot to keep things moving. I sense people are getting restless (or may it's juts me geeting restless) and want to know a bit more about how things are progressing, even if it is slow going. Would it be difficult to put up a regular status on the site? I am not talking a full play by play on a daily basis, more like a sentence or two once or twice a week. I think it would go a long way towards maintaining positive momentum.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] getwilde:
Yep, same here. My 5-year-old Tapwave Zodiac (Palm OS, Motorola 200 MHz, 32Meg RAM, ATI graphics chip) was FAR more snappy. It pushed double the pixels of my Mogul, at a resolution of 320 x 480. I can't reasonably compare scrolling , screen redraw, and touch-screen performance since the OS was different. But all of those functions were indeed faster. In addition, it played videos far better (using an older version of TCPMP), and was also a decent gaming device for its time.

Hard to believe that ANY handheld device 5 YEARS OLD would have better graphical performance -- especially running at double the resolution -- than a BRAND NEW device, regardless of the OS. The difference can most certainly be attributed to the fact that the Zodiac actually used its ATI chipset for onscreen rendering, while the HTC Titan/Mogul does not. Sad, HTC... sad.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Shadow7789:
Has anyone in the EU looked for a lawyer to argue our case? The European courts have a much better track record of siding with the consumers than US courts do. Besides, if HTC has to argue two lawsuits instead of one, all the better for us.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Don't we technically have no case in the USA since HTC doesn't sell any devices there?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Is anyone going to point out to the posters of the constantly repeated comments that 5 year old (and thus late WM2003 devices) were faster than Kaisers, that WM2003 and WM5/6 use memory differently and should not be compared.

Maybe I have missed the comparisons between WM6 devices with the same spec as the Kaiser that do use the hardware acceleration that the moaners are missing?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dagurasu:
This is a good argument for why this approach could work. I sincerely hope it's not begin used as an argument for why it's a good idea. This argument is basically, extort them into doing stuff.

In many countries, using lawsuits as extortion is perfectly legal and has no direct consequences... calling your mother a whore is also legal, at least in private.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dagurasu:
At least I see you really believe in this from a legal perspective then. Somebody should play devil's advocate though, and for the moment I lean toward thinking I'm even right.. but I could still be convinced otherwise. Hopefully I'll get time to read more of this... sprint tech support took my whole Saturday.

Edit: been reading more replies and I sense I'm about to make alot of enemies... This is not my intention... I'll let it go. Anyway.. good luck getting the drivers. If you get them.. I certainly won't mind using them. .. ducking for cover..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mindbeat:
Maybe add this to the site?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLvmH9qf95Y

Edit: Oh, it was a Orginal touch, not the same issue...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
The Touch in that video is the Bell Touch with Qualcomm MSM7500.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greenbrd:
Why should they not be compared? The fact of the matter is that a brand-new 2007 device is far worse than a five-year old device.

Are you saying that the problem lies with WM6 and not with HTC?

For the life of me, I can not think of any possible way to justify new technology being outperformed by old technology. Help me out here.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Maybe you should explain your strawman argument of how it's invalid?

All the comparisons, especially the TomTom one, are running out of dynamic ram. This is different from storage ram which the older PPCs never had. Therefore, unless there's file loading going, there isn't any storage-ram -> dynamic ram transitions involved.

Why do you think we play with the pagepool so much?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
TomTom wasnt mentioned in the last two posts about fiove year old devices... and everyone here keeps going on about the fact its not one app, its apparently the whole device's responsiveness.

My earlier post about benchmarks against stock rom hermes stands.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Ehhh, whats the plan. I feel there has been no progress. . .:eek:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Indeed. Maybe some could take action and drop a PM to Chainfire to know the status.

I have no clue, but no news is mostly good news neh?

(anyway, HTCR&D here in TW is closed untill next week Tuesday, so no surprises expected untill then)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
Chinese New Year means there's not much that will be said on HTC's side till after the holiday passes.

What's this gonna be the year of? The RAT?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Haha, figures. can we at least plan what we are gonna do, when they come because I bet they will have another press conference so we need to prepair.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Cool, so then you fully agree that OS responsiveness is beside the point of why 5 year old devices run apps faster than the Kaiser. Thanks!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
No thats not what I said. And I am now losing the will to argue with you people. Pity HTC can't be ground down by misquoting and illogical arguments.

None of my WM5 or WM6 devices have been quite as quick "on the click" as my last WM2003 IPAQ. I accepted this due to the change in memory architecture.

However my Kaiser is faster than my Hermes (and my prophet and my m500 and all my SPV's) and performs better at everything bar movie playback - where I have had to drop the encoding slightly - and the inbuilt browser is a bit slow to load forum pages. But as I use Opera I don't mind.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Since you're from TW you should try and get ahold of someone at their dev office.. one of engineers in R&D.. buy him a beer, get him drunk and ask him whether they are doing anything about the issue or not.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] CLOCKWO12K:
uniwired4...

please stop using this thread on the forum, you arent helping or answering anyone's questions, all you are doing is arguing with recent posts(pages and pages of you doing it). If you would like to contribute in any way do so, if all you are going to do is whine then please start your own thread in disagreement to this thread, and see if you can get some support saying that everyone that uses a kaiser/tilt/tytn2 is wrong...

gl.

**unwired4**cant edit title, but just realized i spelled the name wrong.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Well, you are contributing to the problem.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greenbrd:
Well my complaint was specifically about movie playback. Can you tell my why a consumer should accept that a five-year-old device outperforms a brand-new one?

I find it quite humorous that your signature claims that your camera "works great with the latest software," yet you rail against those of us who want new software to make our video playback better. Why is it ok for you to seek out fixes for your device but not ok for the rest of us?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Ok. Chill down everyone. Stop arguing.

There is a problem. If you don't think there is one - why the hell are you even reading this thread?

For those of us that think that there should be an improvement/fix for certain things, focus on the topic. We're talking about drivers, HTC, lawsuit and possible solutions.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
What should we do. There has been no progress that we know of so what should we do? Should we sue or be patient. Lets sue if they don't fix it by the end of this month! This has gone on long enough.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] CLOCKWO12K:
1 unnecessary post to stop pages of "the problem" is not "contributing to the problem"

thanks for another unneccassary post.

choose your next words wisely, persian.:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DaVince:
Have you noticed that running Windows 98 on even slower hardware is still snappier than using Vista or XP on new hardware?

I really hope that somebody will push through with this lawsuit, I'm from the Philippines, so I can't really help.. all I can do is sign the petition and send HTC emails (which I have). Winning the lawsuit isn't the main goal here, it's causing enough damage to HTC (or at least scare HTC and it's partners/investors) to force them to make those drivers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Believe me, I used all my Bluetooth company resources here in TW, in the US and UK and even "friends of friends" pretty close to HTC. Not a word or promissing reply what so ever.

I am kind of black listed I fear , as HTC TW does not reply any e-mails since 1month..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I thought this was a discussion board? I though that the exchange of views was promoted. Surely some threads questioning the validity of arguments are more useful than the "why hasnt it been fixed, lets sue now" posts.

The devices are not as bad as people make out - look at the benchmark threads that started up recently - something I suggested a few weeks ago.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Sane:
I don’t understand why some people here say that there is no problem because it’s just so obvious that Kaiser is lagging in certain things. I just had a friends iPaq 6915 for few days and its was so much faster going through programs menu and so on, that I decided I’m going to start to look for a new phone.

To me its also obvious that the issue HTC has with this isn’t just “Ok, lets write drivers for them”, but something bigger.

Really there is 2 choice’s that are the best bets for whats going on:

1.	There is something wrong with the Qualcomm chip, i.e. overheats if everything is used at once. Naturally this would be something that would drop Qualcomm’s market value if it would come out. This means that drivers will never come out from HTC, because they would "brake" the device.

2.	HTC hasn’t paid the licensing fees to ATI for the use of their technology. This is what I think is going on. This means that the community emailing them about the issue will not change anything either. HTC sold 10 million mobiles last year, under 10.000 ppl making noise is relatively small group compared to the millions who bought their product. This means that HTC will never go back and start paying some extra fees for their already sold products and the drivers will never come out from HTC.

We are ****ed with this issue and I think only way to get our devices running like they are supposed to, is that if someone is able to do it and grab the driver bounty. This seems to be a difficult task so say the least.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Sane:
P.s. I hope this doesnt affect the resale value of the Kaiser before I find a phone i will upgrade to. Then i would be pissed off...!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
I hope DarkDvr doesnt mind me posting this from another thread where people are actually proving things rather than just defending their position
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
Defending their position with benchmark numbers that mean nothing in the real world.

Just like my new Wireless N router, "benchmarked" in optimum conditions in a lab running at 300 Mbps,

however in real life useage, less than 1/2 that.

I wonder if these people even use their eyes.

You can't tell me that my Tilt is as fast. I physically see it drawing the program menu icons one at a time . Nothing on the stock ATT ROM. Benchmarks or not, it's a dog.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
That test was not done by HTC. It was done by an XDA member/Kaiser owner and shows how HIS device benchmarked in a live test against other devices.

If your tilt is that really slow then that suggests that its the rom. I wonder what ATT have added to the OS to slow it down that much. Try a hard reset or flash a better rom.

Edit to say your sig says you have a different rom already! Are you saying that both roms have been that slow? If so, it suggests the TILT is not as quick as a TYTN 2... or simply that all ATT based roms are flawed.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
Both ROMs, and the only difference is with the custom one, I removed all the ATT bloatware.

This ppc needs serious attention, when all of the drawing is offloaded to the cpu because the onboard gpu doesn't include the drivers needed to utilize it properly.

Other people may not see issues that are discussed here, and that's fine. I, however, am experiencing these issues with my phone.

The bottom line is that HTC, by their own admission, intentionally ommited software that would allow this device to run better.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Do me a favour and try the same benchmark test. It might help everyone out
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Here's mine

I had activesync running over USB at the time but nothing else.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
thx for the link, will definitely check it out.:)

Benchmarking aside, the central issue still is the fact that HTC has severely limited their new devices by not providing proper drivers to utilize the gpu capabilities of the Quallcom chip.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Its all a question of degrees. You say "severely limited" - there are lots of users who don't agree (and nor unfortunately do HTC).

If you were right then a class action would have already been won.

Please run the benchmark test. Install it to storage card and then run it. It would make very interesting reading if your Tilt underperformed compared to a Tytn2.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
Ah,

Everything is a matter of perception, and to a not small segment of HTC owners, they do see this as an issue, and to the statement" the suit would have alredy been won." to the best of my knowledge, it has not even been filed,as of yet, if ever.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
My point was that if ALL Kaiser owners agreed it was severe, firstly this thread would only be a couple of pages long, secondly people would not still be able to buy them from shops and networks (a customer of mine took delivery of 8 Orange Tytn2's today and I am currently setting them up for him) and thirdly, if HTC allowed it to go as far as a class action suit, it would be decided within days not months.

I realise that lots of unhappy owners are getting fed up with some of us questioning the issue, but debating and testing on here is a lot better than leaving it til its in a lawyers office or a court... when a lack of preparation would kill the case.

If enough users run the benchmark tests and advise their results, their device type and rom details, then I have a feeling it will end up being limited to a certain sub-section of Kaiser owners.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
With any issue there will be people that do not have the problem described, and if this is limited to a very small percentage of devices, I would concur. However, the simple fact that the manufacturer admittedly ommited software that would allow the said devices to perform better, without disclosing such limitations, and the whole inferrence of their advertising these devices to give an exceptional experience, is what is at issue.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
No its not. No one is disputing that the manufacturer didnt install the drivers. HTC certainly arent disputing that.

The issue relates to the impact that said ommission has on the devices and therefore whether there were/are false claims about the devices performance.

HTC maintain that the device lives up to their claims as to its performance.

The unhappy Kaiser users (which is still a small percentage of worldwide owners) are claiming that their devices are crippled by the ommission.

Now prove it. Run benchmarking tests across as wide a spectrum of owners as you can. Quantitative tests are essential - whereas thirty or forty people saying " it doesnt seem as fast as my older device" are not helping at all.