yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Henr0:
So... What good are these 3d drivers, exactly? I mean, other than watching this little triangle spin in the demo app...

Are we waiting on open source 3d games to be developed for these open source drivers, or are there a plethora of 3d games out there for this platform that can take advantage of these drivers?

(now I will go google for 3d games on PPC, of course, so please don't tell me to google for 3d games!)

H
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] iti_uk:
I use PocketSNES to run games, and before I installed the drivers, it would run ~1fps or even less on most games. Now with the new drivers it will run happily at 15-16fps, which makes most games easily playable. I'm not entirely sure why, as I wasn't aware that the SNES had much in the way of 3d architecture, but I do know that I have nearly completed FF6 and haven't had any lag issues.

I set the frameskip at 3 for FF6 and the like, and 2 for beat-em-ups.

I've got a Playstation emulator for it too, but I haven't managed to test it with the new drivers yet - all my PS games are at my parent's house. Before 3d drivers, it would load the game, but run so slowly that it wouldn't even get to the menu screen on GT2, and crashed. After the 3d drivers, who knows?? I'll be back with answers soon.

2d drivers would be sweet.

Chris
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bjd223:
The Kaiser might be 2 years old idk. But I don't think the ATT Tilt was released that long ago, because we get cool phones last here in US of A.

I'd say many of the users of this forum are from the US, and would love nothing more than for this to keep moving forward. If I also had 2D acceleration on my tilt I could use it for a long long time, as a secondary device, even after I upgraded.

I get new phones all the time. But I also continue to use my previous model, especially for work.

I just like how you think, that since these drivers are no use to you, that they are no use to anyone.

I agree with chainfire, and I want to thank the developer(s) of the class action drivers for trying to make my device better.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
It is strange. Qualcomm has all these demos of 3D games ported from the PC by pro developers, and where are they?

Meantime, we're not all pro-3D programmers, so opensource 3D apps will take a bit of time. It takes about 2-3 years before devs milk a platform to the fullest and that's working full time!

I'm certainly working on something, ycavan is too. I haven't done OpenGL in depth before so give us some time.

That's the point of the KaiserGL SDK thread, to help people to develop some stuffs.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Henr0:
cool thundercats, ho!

Anyway, back on topic, it is interesting that the SNES emulator runs faster since, like you say, it shouldn't use 3d?? Weird, but good to know that "emulators perform better." That rocks.

Being mainly a business user I am looking forward to anything that makes this phone run the Manilla 2D faster becasue I love that UI on the phone. Really, it is very usable now but only occasionally lags. Not even sure if that can be blamed on video.

So I'll assume for now that the drivers are going to help play games, and now I'll go install some and make my device get hot in my hands! (uggh, you know what I mean).

Thanks, and thanks to everyone who works so hard on this project. The work is long, the pay sucks, and some of the community has no clue as to the value you add. Others do! Thanks!

H.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Noonski:
I have no Scruples to Censor if it serves the Purpose of everyone getting a breath and chill out.

Opinions sometimes are appreciated.

I appreciate Opinions from Users that give good Arguments or even short ones from Users I know and respect.

Sometimes the words we choose could be better thought of, when we don't, it is only human that someone reacts to it in a human way.

Some Mods might use the Word "Warning" Others might use the Word "Chill" some might even go to a few days Ban.

And there usually is a reason for any of the above, I myself would definitely agree that a good hard Chill was more then in order.

Everything that has been said, has been read by all those concerned, no need to bother those that came looking for information with a small conflict.

I Use Chill, back to work, and respect each other.

Cheerz,
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cold_fire:
GPS lag on HTC Touch PRO

Can we start a petition about it? As far as i can see the discussions are about TyTN II video drivers, but the GPS malfunction on PRO is also HTC's fault. I've been trying different ROMs and radio versions also iGO versions and the lag is present.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
You know, the other bit of disabled hardware we could be complaining about is the VFP, vector floating-point processor, that should have come with our ARM11 (ARMv6).

It might not matter to most, but it would enable damn fast floating point matrix math support for use in say any graphics and 3D programs ... Another point where the iPhone wins since their implementation has it turned on.

This might be the fault of MS directly since it's not even supported/initialized in CE6/Windows Mobile 7, and MS/HTC has never targeted a CPU higher than ARMv4 in any of the OS builds since probably CE 2003.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MotoBarSteward:
A theory explaining the lack of drivers...

I have a theory.

I used to work for a very large company that manufactured Mobile Telephone base station equipment. I don't know how much you guys know about this but Qualcomm are pretty sharp operators. When you (as in the company that I worked for) want to use their chipsets in a base station (which we needed to do for a CDMA product) you have to sign an NDA and a license contract. One of the clauses of the contract and the NDA states that if you use the chipset and the programming model, you have access to their intelectual property. You are not allowed to divulge any information to any other chip supplier. To enforce this, they state that any engineers who have access to this information are not allowed to have anything to do with any other suppliers chip sets. This effectively locks the company into only using Qualcomm after the contract is signed. The way my company got around this was to employ a sub-contracting design house to do this work for us. This allowed us to continue working on what ever we wanted and allowed us to sell products with Qualcomm chip sets in. Now, my theory is that HTC had not found a suitable contractor at the time they developed the Kaiser. Because they didn't want to dirty their engineers and tie HTCH into Qualcomm for every, they just shipped the default drivers. I'd like to guess that the fully spec'ed drivers for the newer products are not written by HTC. It may be interesting to approach a company called DSquare in Seatle and find out how much it would cost to get them to write the drivers for us. DSquare specialise in deploying Windows Embedded and Windows Mobile onto hardware platforms.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Flying Kiwi:
Both MS and HTC are directly to blame

I can just imagine a press release coming from them along the lines of confirming that their Qualcomm MSM7xxx-based devices do not use VFP hardware..... Of course it's there, just not being used because the Windows to hardware interface and drivers aren't up to speed.

***Edit, so following on from NuShrikes Chip part number update then, it appears that function (unlike 3d graphics acceleration) is not included afterall.***

Given that Desktop Windows OSs include native support for a wide variety of hardware and chipsets through the Microsoft signed drivers included, I think it's entirely reasonable to expect that a comparitively tiny and simple Windows Mobile OS will offer full/total/complete 'no ifs or buts' support for all the hardware that the device contains, especially given the fact the OEM has to get Microsofts nod of approval to release the hardware with their OS on it.

Of course if the chipset provider ensured there was full, free, WM driver support (as desktop hardware chipset providers generally offer for full sized OSs), this whole thing would have never happened. They can't use the fact they were sued over the development of the chipset and subsequent restrictions on support as an excuse because that doesn't apply all around the world, only for products sold in certain countries eg USA.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] kapollo:
As far as I know that would be the case, the Windows CE 5 (this one is on Kaiser, but this applies also to v.6) has a basic support for the ARM CPU i.e. the v4 instructions set, and well ..., it does the job in most of the cases. But the trick is that if anyone wants to get some specific parts of newer arch (vide mentioned VFP) then either they have to a) implement it themselves (like in case of 3d drivers of samsung omnia <<xscale optimized>>) or pay M$ for the their support team to do it, to tailor the wince to the platform's needs.

Well it's a bit laugh, because if you remember the HTC took the msm7200 chip as a platform for it has the arm11 core (read bleazing fast) but the core itself has some minor modifications only and generally introduces new instructions that are part of v6 instruction's set and not the v4, so imho the only thing that HTC has gained from using arm11 instead of arm9 is generally higher MHz's, but it still as you know people it sometimes sucks a lot :/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rajmagi:
OOT btw...

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=427888

well well well... aren't many ppl have been warned? well should we but another HTC? lol..

BTT, 19 august... now 27 sept,... hope chainfire is still doing greatness....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] drutort:
ya i was going to ask the same thing, if they got some progress going on the driver :)

also android is by htc? i have tmo and it looks very tempting esp since i never used my upgrade option, but if its by htc i might hold off on getting it, and see what kind of problems surface, now i know if its google and tmobile then its much bigger, but then again att had the tilt and look what happened? nothing... so i dont know what to do, the only thing i know is i wont be buying any cell phone on all the supposed features of the phone, now i know that companies can do this kind of stuff like HTC so ill be holding off. Besides there is always still hope for the kaiser ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] djboo:
support for features like 3d is always going to be better in android than in WinCE due to its openess - people like the XDA devs are going to be better supported with more resources and so on. I do beleive that already the kaiser is better supported in android than it is in winCE.

The thing is, im not sure about everyone else, but the primary point of my mobile purchases is not the 3d card or the camera support - its the fact it has winCE. i Like ce, i like the flexibility it gives, the massive support from 3rd parties, the existing apps etc etc.

android may grow to fill that space, but for the moment, i still want a CE device. i wouldnt mind dual booting - but thats just the geek in me.

i find it hard to forgive HTC for the kaiser - which ive owned for less than 6 months. Their new devices are pretty damn special tho - the touch pro is more than a little appealing - far more than the iPhone.

Luckily thanks to the dev community that WinCE has - people like chainfire and gang will always take a released phone and make it better.

i give it a month till someone hacks the G1 to run CE ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
I'm always doing greatness ;)

However I'm not the person whose responsible for the drivers in their current state. Right now, "we" (and when I say "we", I do mostly mean "hey, I'm trying to keep up with it too") are trying to get the drivers to work on the Polaris/Cruise.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Following up on this, digging and trying out some ARM coprocessor calls it appears that the MSM7200 is just a ARM1136J-S cpu.

Meaning, it's missing the F part (a ARM1136JF-S) which is the Vector Floating-point coProcessor (a fairly advanced FPU), and would've sped native floating-point math up some 22x.

Looks like the only CPU makers signed up for the true-multimedia processor is TI's omap, Freescale's i.mx, LSI, and Apple's iPhone cpu maker. So look for ARM1136JF-S in your next phone, because Qualcomm and their whipping boy HTC sure won't have it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
That's absolutely balls, Shrike.

* gets ready his welding iron *
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Updated driver package and added some Polaris info!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ycavan:
OMG!!!! Thank you, Chainfire! My test app in the kaiser sdk thread went from 38-40fps to 98-99 fps! Could you detail the changes? Thx!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Dredd67:
Thanks for your great work ;)

As your news was quite laconic, could you tell us what has been fixed and if there are any progress in the 2d direction ?

Anyway, one other thing: a nice app using 3d would be the FPSECE emulator (emulates Sony PSX). It's currently under development and a new release will pop up soon according to its dev. Would it be possible to make use of those drivers with FPSECE ?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] p.loong:
huh !!! i'm dreaming or is it real 209-257fps on the triangle test :eek:

wow !!!! i can't believe is happening at my kaiser :p
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] bally3:
Thanks for the mention Chainfire :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ycavan:
actually i tried to get plugin structure details from the fpsece developer a while ago, but we couldn't ever get together on msn... if they would open source their display plugin code, someone could make an ogles display plugin that these drivers would accelerate. :)

other than that, fpsece would not benefit, since it's all 2d.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
We're using the brute-force method that was first used in the 7/18 (first) HTC-CA driver, now in the Polaris driver too, and finally debugged a bit. Meaning, we're avoiding the call to "ScreenUpdateByCopy()" altogether and just telling DDI the whole screen needs to be updated. HTC's new screen rotate probably works this way also, but with a delay.

This update approximates a screen flip without any VBL synching.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Shinare:
Thanks for all your hard work! I also would like to know if there has been any progress in 2D? The reason I am asking is because I am assuming that 2D would improve the camera and youtube playback, etc. Is that correct?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
I don't think there's much time currently to work on 2D. It requires pretty much either rewriting DDI.dll or heavy patching of it while we barely understand it.

Alternatively, could pick up one from another phone that's actually seems accelerated (Toshiba G810) and see if it shoehorns back into the Kaiser, but sources are dry.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Shinare:
I doubt I will ever see one, but if I can get my hands on a Toshiba G810, even if only temporarily, what do I need to get off of there for you?

Again, I'm not saying I can, but maybe if someone else around here who has access to phones could, what needs to be done to get the necessary stuff off of it?

(is this what you are talking about?)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Speed is vastly improved but it seems to have come at a cost:

It appears if these new drivers render stuff in lower resolution and/or without AA. In all the included test apps there are now massive jaggies that simply weren't there in the older drivers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rfarnell:
I just did a GL Benchmark test with the Hyperdragon 30 Sept ROM and Oct 2 HTCA drivers and below are the tests that came back significantly improved (Values in brackets are the previous HTCA drivers):

I tried checking out the Direct3DM caps to see if you'd made any changes but they are identical to the previous editions, so what has changed?

Check out the results for the HTC P3650 Touch Cruise (Polaris) that look very similar to the below http://www.glbenchmark.com/phonedet...650 Touch Cruise (Polaris)&testgroup=lowlevel . There are a couple of tests that seem to be problematic with performance:- Lights: Ambient x 1, Lights: Omni x 1, Lights: Parallel x 1 and Lights: Spot x 1 which haven't seen the marked improvement that the below have. The HTC Touch Diamond Float and Integer scores fair a lot better (nearly a third higher), but that may reflect the increase in Mhz of the CPU.

Fill Rate: Multi-Textured, 2x2 :	15974 (14316) kTexels/s

Fill Rate: Single-textured, 4x1 :	27034 (14285) kTexels/s

GLBenchmark HD ES 1.0 :	1422 (750) Frames

Lights: Ambient x 1 :	108289 (90922) Triangles/s

Lights: Omni x 1 :	42907 (39842) Triangles/s

Lights: Parallel x 1 :	110332 (93987) Triangles/s

Lights: Parallel x 2 :	2509049 (508756) Triangles/s 5 times more

Lights: Parallel x 4 :	2498844 (507735) Triangles/s 5 times more

Lights: Parallel x 8 :	2469207 (508756) Triangles/s 5 times more

Lights: Spot x 1 :	44950 (41885) Triangles/s

Swapbuffer speed :	2330 (478) ~ 5 times faster

Texture Filter: LINEAR :	2534589 (511821) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Filter: LINEAR_MIPMAP_LINEAR :	2509049 (512843) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Filter: LINEAR_MIPMAP_NEAREST :	2534589 (511821) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Filter: NEAREST :	2524373 (512843 Triangles/s) 5 times more

Texture Filter: NEAREST_MIPMAP_LINEAR :	2511092 (512843) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Filter: NEAREST_MIPMAP_NEAREST :	2517222 (513864) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Size: 1024x1024 :	2545827 (495476) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Size: 128x128 :	2515179 (511821) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Size: 256x256 :	2537654 (512843) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Size: 512x512 :	2541740 (512843) Triangles/s 5 times more

Texture Size: 64x64 :	2526416 (508756) Triangles/s 5 times more

Triangles: Flat Shaded + Color :	2571367 (495476) Triangles/s 5 times more

Triangles: Smooth Shaded + Color :	2540719 (513864) Triangles/s 5 times more

Triangles: Textured :	2498833 (512843) Triangles/s 5 times more

Triangles: Textured + Color :	2489636 (513864) Triangles/s 5 times more

Rob
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
No VBL sync. It's updating faster than the LCD can update, if the LCD is running @ 60Hz and say the Triangle.exe is running at 300Hz. Maybe a VBL sync API can be found, but app developer will just have to slow down screen updates himself, or go back to previous drivers that seemed to VBL sync. :D

All the 5x triangle improvement is usually FAILs meaning the API failed for some reason (notice it fails for all HTC devices and many others? GLBenchmark bug or feature?) and the operation became a timing on a no op. Swapbuffers is almost a no op, but actually does something, so 5x improvement is a good thing.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Dredd67:
Well, as I said the development is still going on, and you can get the latest news here:

http://www.fpsece.net/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1222939768&archive=

I see in the comments that someone already begged for using KaiserGL and contact xda's devs.:rolleyes:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rajmagi:
yeah, Im thinkin the same...

In HCA website there is no guide how noobs (actualy mostly person who bought non driver pda is a noob??) could help to fix the CA driver, ex:

-what model would be helpful and not yet obtained, ks20? (nope i gues), omnia? or even G810? etx guys?

-what files are needed?

-what registry strings are needed?

the better info the better probability help will come...

cmiiw
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mdelleman:
What should I notice after I install these drivers? What sort of performance enhancements should I get? Are they only for 3D games or do they have other purposes? Any set up needed? Thanks.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] iolaosx:
I can't understand WHY don't we take the driver from the G810??????????????????????????????????????????

It has the same processor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

comon boyyyy
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] w04g005:
I don't know WHY some people are so stupid?????????????????????

WE DON'T have a dumped ROM. Or do you have one?????????????????????

So can you tell me how to get the drivers????????????

so, enough question marks
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] iolaosx:
sorry i tried to understand why! coglione
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] iolaosx:
sorry.. I wanna say only why! coglione!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] private69:
For CHAINFIRE

Hello,

All the people have a probleme with our HTC DIAMOND and TOUCH PRO : The Bad Performance OF GPS !!!!

In past : the video Driver now The Bad performance on new HTC DEVICE.

To force HTC to resolved the probleme of GPS is to phone to HTC, Mail to HTC, and write an article of bad performance of GPS like we wrote in the past whith our TYTN II (Probleme Video driver) and write in all revues.

http://www.htcclassaction.org/

@ ChainFIRE can you post an article in your site i explain you the problem :

GPS issue and what we should do

Hi all,

Regarding the lag from the GPS of the HTC diamond and Touch Pro, i called the HTC

custmer support service (French one) and here is what i said:

I tried the GPS with several navigation systems (i said tomtom but they directly

replied me that tomtom is not an official product so i had to say i tried also COPILOT 7

diamond edition) and when i drive i have a 50 meters lag! Even worse, if i use my

old P3600 device it reacts faster, almost instantaneously, while it takes 25 to 30

meters for the diamond to realize i moved."

I also explained them that i made a throughful comparison between the two devices (

P3600 and Diamond) using "HTC GPS TOOLS" and that after two steps the P3600 detects a

movement while it still requires 25 steps until the Diamond or Touch Pro react.

And their answser was he following:

"So far only two people have notified us about the problem, it would require significantly

more people complanining before a HOTFIX patch is released"

So as the support service said, as long as there is enough people notifing them about

the issue we would see a hotfix release. Now it's up to us to take some minutes of our

time and to call them.

Thanks.

@++++
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cicciobellomo:
You should be more polite

First of all excuse me for my bad English. I'm Italian.

I think that this forum topic should not be wasted by bad word as "coglione" (Italian word meaning "asshole", and litterally translated as testicle).

I'm referring to this topic to understand how to try to solve the serious problems created by HTC. In my personal opinion this kind of language do not help us going in the right direction. Please try to be more polite.

Hoping to be not to much moralistic.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] iolaosx:
impamuni....

sorry again men
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JcgejtVGlXk
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wallsg:
Drivers vs Test Programs

It would be nice if it were possible to install the test programs onto the SD card to save RAM, or if it were possible to uninstall those programs and leave the drivers.

I manually moved the test programs from RAM to SD and fixed the links. They still appear to work.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jwlehane:
Typo in petition

Hello,

I too wish my Tilt worked better than it does, not just in video drivers, but I would also like to see the release of Windows Mobile 6.1 for Tilt. It has been promised since before I bought my phone in April.

I wanted to note a typo in the petition, please re-read and correct.

http://www.petitiononline.com/tytn2vid/

'...of pixels on the screen seems behave in an unacceptably slow manner. ' Should be '...seems to behave...'
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
WM6.1 for Tilt has been out a couple months at least.