yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
As for HTCClassAction (though I in no way mean to imply that I actually have or should have any influence of the project, I'm just stating my opinion) I think it would be best if it concentrated on the driver video driver issue first.

1. Because we cannot expect Chainfire to be our one and only torchbearer. It's not fair on him and personally I think it would be very hard for one person to accomplish such a project without failing to attend to the details.

2. Press releases have already been sent out with information only pertaining to the video driver subject. Sending out new press releases or just adding the content bildnly to the current page would probably just dilute it.

3. There have not yet been as thorough documentation, discussion and investigation about the other issues.

4. The new update will, according to various sources, bring us: Windows Mobile 6.1*, business card scanning for all regions**, a new and improved version of TouchFLO** and the video driver fix along with various other fixes and most probably a lot of updates to the included HTC apps.

As such, it's probable that other issues people are experiencing, probably not all of them though, will be solved via the same update.

* (This is according to HTC USA Support)

** (This is according to HTC Sweden PR)

5. HTC can only do so much as once. If we want our updated drivers anytime soon we should not be asking for a lot of other stuff in the last section as it could: a) take away priority from the current slew of updates and/or b) delay the update.

WHat we could do is start a new thread where we post problems that seem widespread. Let people know how to reproduce the problems and write up thorough reports on them and then compile a list and then we'll go from there.

We also need to root out any issues that are unique to specific carriers (and especially those specific to cooked ROMs), and we need to root out that any tweak caused the issue etc.

First stop would to probably just send it to HTC, now that we obviously have their attention I think we will find it easier to get through.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Also we seem to have another issue on our hands. So far HTC only seems to regard this is an issue with video playback.

We really need to make them understand that we don't only want the DirectDraw/HW Overlay (and/or video decoding) drivers. We also really want the GDI drivers and in turn we also want the Open GL ES and Direct3D Mobile drivers as well.

We also want proper touchscreen performance and we want the camera to work properly. (The Imageon technology supports acceleration of JPEG encoding and decoding and it also supports a "direct" high performance path for the viewfinder, as of now this is not used and thus we have the 2 fps viewfinder and a camera that takes ~5 seconds to take one photo.)

In other words the list is already quite long and so far, even though this seems to have caught HTCs attention they have only commented on video playback. They have not mentioned 2D or 3D acceleration, the poor camera performance or the touchscreen bug (though the latter has plagued them for years and I doubt they'll do anything about it...)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
UndaC, after reading what you wrote two times over, I must say I completely agree with all your points.

Still, the speakerphone and bluetooth issues can be very annoying. Let's just see if they are in the coming update.

As for the video playback, I agree insofar as that that is all they seem to be bothering with now, but as the root of those problems is most likely in the display drivers, there is still some hope of the other parts being included.

The touchscreen issue, I'm making a write up about that now, including benchmarks and-so-forth. Hopefully it will help. I am planning to build myself a custom ROM that doesn't have the touch driver at all (it seems like you are not able to simply turn it off, like many other drivers) to finish the series, and that will prove beyond a doubt it is a driver issue. I'm getting a bit frustrated with having to flash and reflash my device every day though ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
Thanks for all the work you have done chainfire

I want to thank chainfire for all the work he has done to resolve the video issue. I also wish to apologize to chainfire as i started this mess with requesting the speakerphone problem be added which led to a windfall of other requests. It is to much to ask one person to resolve all of our problems. While i think the speakerphone is an important issue to resolve, i am sure others feel that there is another problem that is just important to them.

Perhaps, as another commenter had mentioned, we could start another thread relating to other problems that exist with tytnii. I am somewhat conflicted with the concept of not adding anything to the suit with the idea being that htc will delay fixing the video on the phone. This should not be the reason for not adding major problems as the suit has htc's attention where a thread just listing problems does not. To me, something like the speaker phone not working, is not trivial and leaves the phone fundamentally flawed even if the video is fixed. However, under the auspices of another thread, we could try and get the problems in a "ready to chew" format as chainfire requested so he can say yah or nah or say; i need more on this or that or he could say you are wasting your time; but at least with this we can do the leg work for him and he is not wasting his time. This is just one suggestion; dont know if it makes sense or not.

At any rate, chainfire, I appreciate all the work you have done.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
I am VERY curious about the results. Please keep us informed about it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Update the site (yet again), added some newly reported support responses and significantly updated the "Research and verification" page. It's not done yet, and links to it from other parts of the site (like what to tell HTC and such) need to be added, but please review it and tell me what you think so far. It contains a large section dedicated to the touchscreen, btw. Hopefully tomorrow or the day after I will be able to expand on all the other issues as thoroughly as well, so the real tech-journalists reviewing it can confirm for themselves that all is as we say it is.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] 4Site:
Someone check the videos on this site. They highlight the issues we're facing very well i think
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
They would, were it not that there is also a Pocket Internet Explorer specific scrolling bug. So unless all these devices are running the exact same build of PIE, these videos say nothing. This is also why similar YouTube videos were removed from the HTCClassAction.org site.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
general comment regarding lawsuit and other "major issues"

not sure how to start or even say this --- but finding out why something doesnt work is not the legal issue --- its fine that you have all the technical stuff in the row --- but who care about technical --- i just want it fixed. You can reload the roam as much as you want or do your own roam --- i appreciate all the work; but bottom line in litigation side is that video does not work as advertised --- so htc has to prove it does (if taken to trial); just like other issues like speaker and bt beiing defective... trying to give some focus from legal standpoint; thats all....video is important to me; but you dont need to do research to further your case, --- its the fact that it does not work
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
With all respect, it is thanks to the devotion and commitment from communities like this that manufacturers can being pushed.

Legal action was/is not the intention, though if a manufacturer does not listen to complaints of thousands over 6 months after their launch, all means are good to push them. As it looks now, being confronted with negative news about this on several renomated sites, it is expected that a solution is being provided soon.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
While this is true to some extent, it is still necessary. Remember that the goal is to get HTC to fix it, not to sue them. Sueing them is only one of the tools at our disposal to getting the job done. In the meantime, a lot of people (including interested tech sites) are requesting this core information they can verify, reproduce, etc. The problem is that everybody can say anything, but on the internet it isn't true until you have 'hardcore' data to back it up. It's just like those people claiming 640x480 600kbps video is working fine - you go "wtf?" until they disclose it only works in TCPMP and requires the quality to be set to low and several other obscure settings to be set to X or Y. It's all in the details. It also serves as message to HTC that we know what we're talking about, we've done our homework.

While indeed, if it comes to a lawsuit it may not all be relevant (or none of it even), that doesn't mean it's not relevant now to others.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Nick Collision:
"Research and Verification" section is very informative, and very educational to folx like myself who know what drivers are supposed to DO, but dont know what .dll is supposed to hook to what function and thus to other drivers.

You seem to have summed up general expectations of how things *should* work, and pointed out where they do not function to the best of your ability.

Thank you again for your efforts, that writeup alone would have taken me months.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
still dont understand some commenters; but maybe they represent a few. but i will say i will do ever i have to do to get my speaker phone fixed, even if it means legal action as it is only way to draw attention..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] intothevoid:
Chainfire has really done a great thing by starting the website. The press coverage that this issue is receiving is really gonna help all the HTC users hopefully.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
hey chainfire,

the only thing that i can say is that lawsuits or litigation only develop into a real concern when the concern is valid or will be followed through on.

If anything faulters, then the whole thing crumbles. Thus, its up to you; and i am no expert on these matters legallly or technically, but will say i have been through a similar trial before --- and that a lot of the circumstances are similar--- but still diifferent. I can only recommend to stay the course you believe in and dont expect what you think.....

\
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Honestly, I neither understand what you realy want to say :(

you're now way on your own regarding possible actions.

Chainfire has or can have anything on hand to put pressure on this.

His idea of the classaction site was the best thing untill now.

And it seems he does not sleep lately , being committed , as I see him typing here when it is damn middle in the night ther in Europe :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
cee,

your right... guess its up to me open up a different class action--- although they will be merged into one... but who cares ... why have a concerted effort to have "major issues" resolved; best we work seperately. So i will
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] at10ti0n:
i want to confirm the slowness of my orange spv m3100 (HTC TyTN I) when i press the touchscreen while playing games. (eg: Worms, Street Duel)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
CNEt ASIA informs his subscribers on HTC performace gap

Just received in my mailbox from CNET ASIA :):

http://asia.cnet.com/members/newsletters/viewNewsletter.htm?id=39247423

Title: Is your HTC device underperforming?

So, now the message is not to be found inside sites, but posted from sites towards thousands of consumers.:)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gabriel31337:
Response from HTC support

Just to let you know :rolleyes:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] HeatWave:
I just got the same email :

In reference to your recent query regarding the TyTN II, and the devices performance in video playback, we can confirm that the HTC Research and Development team in Taiwan are currently investigating.

We have not been given any time frame regarding this but updates will appear on eclub in due course.

?

Thank you for your enquiry, Should you have any other problem, please do not hesitate to call us. Your Local number can be found at http://www.europe.htc.com/support/csbyphone.html

?

Best regards,

Dominic

HTC Europe

HYPERLINK "mailto:callservice@htceurope.com"callservice@htceurope.com

http://www.htc.com

Guess we're on to something ;).
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
More than 50 sites reported untill now the current issues.

the last one I found (and post) is :

http://www.mobilehornet.com/archives/873

Just because his good title it is worth looking at

I am sure that chainfire will consolidate all the new links on his Classaction site. :D (no sleep tonight dude )
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mrmega:
We have a good beginning, now we need to join together and follow through with the middle game!

Post comments/responses to the articles so that we can keep these articles on the writers (and their editors) radar. Keep contacting ANY press organization, on the Internet, TV, print... you name it. Be courteous, polite and straightforward.

If we continue to make noise, HTC will have to address it one way or another.

ROCK ON BROTHERS & SISTERS!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Those of you who got this new e-mail, Make sure to reply and make them understand that it's more than just video playback.

It's 2D-performance in general, 3D performance, the touchscreen bug and the underperforming camera etc.

Gaah, I can't believe that HTC managed to actually read about the issue but then their brains just filtered out all but the video playback issues.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Phew, we have 257 different referrers right now. It would be impossible to list them all in the "In the press" section. I will put the bar a bit lower with number of 'sent visitors' to include them though, and update the list.

And indeed, I am worried that update will only have video playback fixed, not video drivers.

EDIT: On another note, the petition is now approaching 6000 signatures...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rachidnl:
Why are you worried about this? I'm thinking that if it's true that the driver issue is basically a license issue between HTC and Qualcomm that has now been settled, HTC will implement Qualcomm's reference drivers, which contains hardware acceleration for all the graphical APIs, right? :)

I know we don't really think high of HTC, but would they really deliver only half a driver when a reference driver is available? It seems delivering half a driver costs more time as you'll need to delete code that's already there.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
It's not that simple. Even if it was like you said (HTC got drivers from Qualcomm), it's not as simple as passing drivers to us (users). Drivers are not ready-to-use package and HTC would have to "tune" them for their devices. And it's easier for them to "tune" just one part that the whole set.

I guess we will have to wait and see.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Mikulec:
whats your estimated release date?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ziggykd:
Chainfire, not sure if this may help you, but I was putting together a compiled list of the coverage the HTC driver issue was getting recently.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] habib_1495:
HTC tilt video drivers

i completely agree with JMmcdonald .i have at&t tilt as well 8525 both working fine.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rachidnl:
Surely it's not as simple as copying a file to all devices and then we'll be happy, I know that. :) Perhaps I'm thinking too much about nVidia's and ATI's desktop graphics drivers - no matter what vendor you buy your graphics card from (EVGA, Asus, MSI, Hercules, etc.) you can always use the reference drivers, resp. ForceWare and Catalyst.

In any case, this is all speculation and we'll need to see if January 28th passes eventfully or not. :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Just a status update on the touch-screen issue. I have tried building a ROM without the touchscreen driver for benchmarking, and though it boots I am as of yet unable to get it to run the benchmark...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
Just had this from Qualcomm..... Still awaiting reply from HTC's Press Office. If anyone want's the contact details etc, then PM me.

Ashleigh,

Thanks for your email. I have cc'd my colleague from the division responsible for our chipset solutions Stefano but, as you suggested, you will need to speak to HTC about this issue.

Thanks

Rt

At 10:08 PM 1/20/2008, Ashleigh wrote:

Hi,

I have been asked to cover a story on the current HTC Models suffering with poor performance, due to driver inadequacies in the MSM7200/MSM7500 chips.

I would be grateful if Qualcomm have any official response before publishing any article on www.blogcritics.org, we do appreciate this is actually a HTC issue, however we thought we would check with yourselves to make sure there are no technical reasons that Qualcomm is aware of that these issues could not be resolved via a firmware or driver update to the devices.

Thanks in advance

--------------------------------

Ashleigh

"Speed never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary; That's what gets you" : Jeremy Clarkson.

www.blogcritics.org Technical Writer and www.intersportswire.com F1 and MotoGP editor
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DaVince:
I wish htcclassaction.org can emphasize a little more on the touchscreen bug too.. not just the video playback. I don't really play videos that much but I would like things to run smoother even if I'm touching the screen. There are a lot of finger friendly/gesture driven apps out there.. and this bug really cripples the functionality.. not to mention the unplayable games.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Yup, perhaps a slight reordering would be nice.

HTC now certainly are aware of video playback issues, they still seem to be oblivious as to the touchscreen, 2d and 3d performance though.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
I've quized them on the DirectX M, OpenGL and touchscreen issues when I emailed the Press office. So with some luck they may get back to me.....

They may ignore me as well, but at least Qualcomm got back to me. Also just received a mail from the Qualcomm Chipset division spokesperson (Stefano Nardo), who has stated that HTC have licensed the technology and base driver kit, and suspects that the reason drivers are not currently on the devices is down to time to market restraints. There is however no technical reason that Qualcomm can see that the devices do not use the AMD Imigeon chipset to the fullest.

Just so you know.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
What exactly would you change?

If you could forward that e-mail info@htcclassaction.org maybe we can put this information up... :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
Will make sure it's ok with him, then forward it on (as they mentioned they don't really want to get tied up in all this, and you can't blame them), no problems.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Just to make clear: I would like to see it. As for the site, it would be nice if we could state something like "Qualcomm has responded saying HTC has all they need from them to implement the drivers". You know something like that, we don't need to mention names or directly quote or post the email.

Doesn't make much of a difference (for them), but it would be nice, and I can understand perfectly if they do not want this.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] the_ape:
Fair dinkum......
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Simply by putting the video playback issues at the bottom of the various pages. (Such as the driver section.)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Has been done.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fisha21:
I think it's interesting that the ClassAction site has prompted replies from Qualcomm as well as HTC. I seem to recall people waiting months with no reply from Qualcomm. Goes to show that at least the companies involved are paying attention - even if only to deny culpability.

With regards to the touchscreen issue, I got the impression reading around that it is not just the HTC devices that suffer with this. The following board on the Eten users forum describes the same problem with the X800:

http://eten-users.eu/index.php?showtopic=12357

I wonder if this is more a problem with WM6, as it seems to affect multiple companies (whereas the video display problem seems predominantly HTC). This makes me think we won't see a fix for this for a while - maybe WM6.1? I don't think shifting the focus to this would achieve much, as HTC could just say "sorry, this is MS's fault" and gloss over the rest.

Regarding the suggestion to change the class action site, I think Chainfire has done a great job of clarifying all the issues. The info isn't slanted towards video playback only - there is a lot of emphasis that it is video display in general, which is affecting everything from the camera to the Start menu.

The problem is that HTC have focussed on the video playback as the area they are "trying" to fix. This could be because they feel this is the easiest area to address. However, when the issue was first raised last year, there were a lot of emails posted here on the boards that people had sent to HTC - most of which described problems with video playback. I recall that it took some time for people to understand the full extent of the issue, guided by Chainfire et al, and it may be that from HTC's view, the mass of emails regarding video playback make them think that is the predominant problem.

Hopefully, as mentioned before, they will find it easier to provide the full 2D/3D driver kit, rather than just those that will improve video playback. Time will tell, I guess.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rachidnl:
Touchscreen actions generally trigger a graphical response. Wouldn't it be likely that the touchscreen issues will disappear at least partially after the graphical drivers have been released?

Great work by Ashleigh btw, it seems we can now bury the driver license (ha-ha-ha, got it? so lame) theory.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Reading your reply and the linked thread, I just want to make something clear:

- This issue is not WM6 specific, it has been reported long ago for WM5 phones. According to Menneissys (however you spell his name) this problem has been around for at least 2 years on various phones

- This is not caused by 'mouse events' as suggested in that thread. First, that doesn't take quite as much CPU power as that; and second, using a 'virtual mouse' (for example operating through My Mobiler) makes the issue go away, and the same 'mouse event' are generated, just not by the touchscreen driver.

Sure, it could be this issue is hardware related though I somehow doubt that. And if HTC states this is Microsoft's fault, that's fine too, we can harass Microsoft. However as long as HTC says nothing, we don't know anything. Furthermore, I doubt this is Microsoft's fault, or absolutely all phones would be suffering from this, which is not the case.

For more info see the "Research and verification" page on the site, if that doesn't convince you the problem is with the touchscreen driver or hardware, and not another subsystem, I don't know what will.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] udgn:
What is a virtual mouse? and where I can find one.