yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] swatspyder:
It just seems very odd and unlikely, considering I did nothing to the phone except Sync it and soft reset, I know its not my imagination. Most likely unrelated or some weird fluke but it is faster. I dont have any way to check it anyways...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] EeekiE:
Jesus "With-disabled-walking-on-water-ability" Christ has anyone tried to read a PDF document??

Why on EARTH did they include a PDF viewer if it utterly takes the piss out of your eyes. You scroll, and only when you stop scrolling does the text refresh. Exactly like browsing folders on a new install of Windows before you install the correct drivers. It's utterly useless at simple business related tasks too! I'd somewhat tolerate the lack of video playback ability, but when I've tested the browser, pocket Excel, and now Adobe PDF viewer for work related applications and documents it's beyond a joke. Perhaps that's where the petition is failing. It certain is not just a video playback problem. My old Nokia N90 out performs it on all these fronts. What exactly is it meant to be fast AT, other than loading stuff you cannot interact with or read properly! This is a scam.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Morghus:
Bad scrolling in Adobe is a symptom of the lacking video drivers :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] MAK11:
No. lol It's always been like taht on any WinMo device.

Touch Dual users should sue HTC too I guess, WiFi and GPS are disabled. and no "drivers"! LG KS20 user too, No GPS and no Imageon drivers! Nooo!!!

:eek:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] joshuah82:
I used to work for Sprint on the tech side (this was back in 2004 or so) and they did perform OTA updates. But nothing on the scale required for something like this. We're talking pushing new settings and that's about it. And the settings were generally related to radio/network stuff.

With EV-DO I suppose it could be more feasable, but I doubt you'd see anything like that happen without getting some kind of warning on your phone. If they could do something like that you'd probably see an uprising of complaints from people upset that their device was monkeyed with without their permission.

Does WinMo 6 have event logging similar to the desktop systems? I would imagine if something was "installed" or updated you could find at least a hint of it there. But I'm going to say that the likelyhood of an OTA update is very little to none.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
The updates ^^^ would be sim updates - not OS updates.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Hornet331:
[ ] you have understood the term of misadvertising
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Yes, but thats not GSM, its CDMA. OTA updates are usualy under a half a meg so it wouldn't take over 10 min on edge.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Are you seriously suggesting that the network have secretly pushed a rom patch out to winmo devices?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Hm... I have to say.. That's a well formed and interesting post. Now you made me wonder, I guess we do need to investigate each problem separately and don't jump to conclusions till we exhaust all easy answers like bugs/misconfiguration.

Actually... just backtracking a bit... who was the first to figure out the issue of missing drivers? I'm not saying they've lied, I'm just saying that we will need to get some solid proof of the issue, just like the above post author said.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
You make some good points, but here are my issues with it. You talk about slower frame rates and chalk it up to having background apps running. Are you saying he has different apps running between the two devices and they're not configured the same way? I didn't see that. I mean sure, maybe if you have a bone dry installation with TOMTOM the only thing installed, they may stack up comparatively well, but what's the point in that? That goes for what's running on the today screen too. For instance, PhoneAlarm is horrendous when it comes to switching orientation. I don't expect it to be lightening fast. What I do expect is for it to rotate as fast or faster than it did on my Hermes. I remember before I sold my 8525 noticing that, but I just chalked it up to the AT&T bloatware that I would soon remove. Whoops. I'm sure you could say, "Well maybe PA just isn't optimized for the Tilt" but seriously, it's not the responsibility of 3rd party software companies to cater their products to a single phone. It's the manufacturer's responsibility to allow use of the hardware. So despite their claims that they "have no class-action liability," if they implied that that hardware was available and it's not, I hope they go down in flames.

As for gaming, I don't know much about that. I don't really play games on my phone. However, in regards to video, I distinctly remember when I got the device thinking, "Hmm, I don't remember that video skipping and slowing down there... well, the hardware is pretty advanced. I'm sure once I get rid of all this crap it came with and install TCPMP it'll be a lot smoother." I really wish I had known what I know now. I didn't buy this phone because of it's springloaded keyboard. I bought it because I had a reasonable expectation to perform faster at all times. Do you think I would have spent $700 for something that was even "just as good?" Of course not. I expected it to exceed it's predecessors. If it can run only just as fast as its predecessors, but only when nothing is installed, so what?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
It is done. Pressreleases are sent, hopefully some site will pick this up.

EDIT: Unfortunately, so far, HardOCP has bounced the mail because it has decided HTCClassAction.org does not exist, and gizmodo has bounced the mail with a different address than it was sent to, so there's still hope it reached somebody else at gizmodo.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
dont worry, i already sent the link to HTC tech support here in the US, which was forwarded to cingular/AT&T HTC support, which means we should be hearing soon as the last thing AT&T wants is a lawsuit.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Laurentius26:
You all are doing great work.

Keep it up!

You are the best ;)

Regards,

Leo
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Kepela523:
If the LG KS20 uses the same processor/technology, cant we just extrat the drivers from there??

Sorry im no expert, but i mean, when that phone is released im sure we can use that right?

Or is it not released yet?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
It has been release, and I personally have spent over 100 hours working on that, but have not yet succeeded. Chances are slim I will, I'm a good hacker, but this seems to be beyond me (though I have learnt a lot of things now, like 10000 ways they don't work). The problem is, that the kernels themselves differ quite a bit on the HTC and LG devices, it's nowhere near as simple as it is transplanting a driver from a Dell PC to a HP PC, for example. There's probably only one person who could pull this off, if it's possible at all, and that's cmonex, and she doesn't have a Kaiser, which is quite necessary.

But if we can get HTC to make the drivers, well, isn't that even better? :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] difflvl:
Where does she live?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DSmithZ28:
Why don't we make a thread to ask for donations for her and paypal her the money to purchase a TyTN II? We should easily be able to get 300 people to give a few bucks each. If she can do it, the device is hers, and the bounty. If she can't, she sends it back and we raffle it off or something...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
She lives in Hungary I believe. She's also OliPro's girlfriend so I guess the hangs in England a lot.

As for the donations/buying her a Kaiser, there already is a thread about that. Note that that thread would also be for Kaiser Unlocker by OliPro.

Now in my personal opinion it's one or the other. Either she invests in a Kaiser and has a chance at the $3k (she takes the risk) or we buy her a Kaiser (we take the risk), not both. But that's my personal opinion, and not my call, as I haven't pledged the $3k :) Either way, some people from the bounty thread are considering using their pledged cash for that for a possible lawsuit fund instead.

Let's just see what happens :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
horray, finally got a half-decent answer:

Hello Doug,

Thank you for your inquiry

We here at HTC definitely understand your concern about being able to use your device to its full potential. In this case regarding the video rendering capabilities of your AT&T Tilt.

Edit: I am going to start a new thread (yes I know, like there arent enough threads already) where people can give me input on the multiple different issues that are occurring. Hopefully a mod will sticky it.

HTC has received similar feedback from other users and we are currently collecting examples to assist us in developing a fix. We request that you provide us with the following information about your device so that we can further investigate it. Please include:

* Your full name:

* Mobile number:

* IMEI:

* P/N:

* S/N:

* ROM Version:

* Details of issue:

Please provide a detailed account of the issue that you have experienced, which includes:

* Program used

* File size

* File format/encoding

* Resolution

* Video scaling (50%, 100%, full screen, etc.)

* Any other details that you believe to be relevant

We apologize if this issue has caused you any consternation. Please provide us with the above information at your earliest convenience.

HTC Technical Support

http://www.america.htc.com

http://www.htcwiki.com

http://www.cingular.com/support/

-Only problem I have with this (obviously), is that since I'm using a cooked ROM if I email back ATT will rape my warranty. If anyone would like to assist me and provide the exact things I should fill in here (obviously not IMEI, S/N, etc. but more along the lines of the video issues), I will send it along their way. Hope this gives us some hope there will be progress.

Edit: I'm going to start a new thread with the info for people to fill in and forward these issues to HTC.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] kevinniven:
HTC Reply

I received the same email from HTC today!! Lets use the money for the Law suit! I'll put up some more!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ahson:
great job man!!

Thanks for taking initiative and creating this web site. The web site is great, and hopefully now your hard work will start to pay off..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cproaudio:
You know, I'm so sick of hearing people saying that the video petition and classaction are unnecessary. The Tilt is a business phone this and that but it's not. The Tilt is advertised as a "portable media center" phone. Direct from their US website "Rich media experience with AT&T Mobile Music, Video, TV and games" watch the video too. The Tilt has been heavily compared to the iPhone with the Tilt coming out as a clear winner in terms of features and expendability. The tilt has the hardware that trumps the iphone but the iphone's software and multimedia capability trumps the Tilt hands down. I'm not talking about format support. We all know iphone sucks at format support. I'm talking about the overall display rendering. If the Tilt has the video drivers, Tilt will be the ultimate phone for business users and multimedia users (me).

if you still dont know what the fuss is about here are couple of videos you can try to play it on your Kaiser/Tilt/TyTN II. Download, unzip put it in the MicroSD and play it with Windows Media Player.

http://www.emmy-online.org/media/videos/Falling1.zip QVGA 25fps WMV music video. Tilt plays it at about 10-15fps

http://www.emmyrossumfan.com/ccount/click.php?id=51 VGA 30fps WMV music video. Tilt plays this at about 1-4fps

Here's an analogy. Let's say that a car manufacturer made an super duper all purpose vehicle that seats 8 6'5" persons confortably, 165 cubic ft interior space, fits 4X8 when seats are folded, luxurious interior, super quiet cabin, super sports suspension that's capable of lateral at 1.3G, smart 4WD, high ground clearance so you can take it off road that has 750HP 6L V12 quad turbo. It beats the pants off of an Enzo in acceleration and cornering, more off road capability than H1. The engine has a secret technology that can acheive 45mpg city and 60mpg freeway, on paper. Well hell, it has room like a mini van, off roads like a SUV, fast like an exotic car, save gas like a hybrid. It's the ultimate all in 1 vehicle. sound familar? Then you come to find out after you bought the vehicle, the transmission has only 1 gear and tops out at 75mph. Because it has only 1 grear, the milage is only 10 city/15hwy. Because of the schitty transmission (lack of video driver) the performance is lacking, but it still can take you from point A to point B. Wouldnt you want the car manufacturer to come out with a proper transmission so the car can acheive the rated milage, and top speed as advertised on paper?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wyrm:
made my request for tech support

a big +1000 for this initiative. If making HTC TS escalate the issue is the only way, let's drown them in "polite but firm" requests for a decent driver. Hell, let them choke on firm and polite.

bin sed before, will say it again: without a good video driver, our proud Kaiser is a Squire at best.

and cproaudio, nice analogy :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dperren:
Just emailed HTC support:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Boinng:
Congrats to all - this story is now on El Reg - http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/17/htc_chipset_anger/ :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dperren:
Excellent work everyone :cool:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Zhadum:
The site looks great. You did an excellent job :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
And on top, being here in Taiwan, I moved plenty of links related this issue to local Taiwanese websites to create "inner" awareness and forwarded some information and possible next steps to a contact in a local TV station.

I do not promis anything, but if media such as Taiwanese TV smells a story to disgrace company practices, be aware of a storm. in fact, it might become a Typhoon.

What pisses me of the most is that HTC Taiwan Corp. neglects thousands of complaints. An officail , even small, press release on their website would be simply good enough to start with.

If for once, they would damned give up their loosing face attitude (too bad the Chinese will laugh with it) and admit not having delivered a device being representative follower of the Tytn I.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] s1lverf0x:
Sorry for this being my first post and that, but I just thought I would be inclined to add my rather small voice to the issue of the phone not being up to scratch. I purchased the TyTN II phone for use on the Orange Network, and whilst on the surface it is a fantastic peice of kit. The video playback quality is indeed rather lacking, which can and will cause slowdown on the system itself. Apart from this, the phone is a great peice of kit. there are a few things I would hope to see if the video driver problem is resolved.

1. An improvement of speed for browsing heavy sites.

2. A possible improvement for the software dialing? (Orange uses it's own mod and it seems to me a bit sluggish when punching in numbers, if the video graphics improve, who knows... maybe the speed of typing the numbers could improve as well) No offence, but anyone using this phone to make and receive calls would understandibly see this as an improvement. (if it affects them)

3. An increased ability to get things done faster, which means less time spent with the phone powered up fully which leads in turn to a longer battery uptime and less time with it sitting in a charger.

4. A reason to show off to people just how cool this phone can actually be with video's (and nefty graphic mods). It's one thing saying that it can play vid's, but showing it? I'd rather not. Not at this moment anyway.

5. A damn site faster speed in the screen switching from landscape to portrait view when you want to use the keyboard. At the minute it takes a few seconds and the sluggishness is almost frustrating when you want to use the keypad quickly.

Don't get me wrong, this phone is great. But it's like a computer without Directx. Just sluggish when pushed in any way.

And to those who say that this isn't a valid arguement? I think some of my points here will be valid enough to those users to see where Chainfire is going with this! Cause it is spoiling the phone for me. and £460 is A LOT of money to spend on a phone. Espicially when I'm using it as a PAYG. :)

Hope you do get a happy resolution regards this. And also hope that HTC see this as a wake up call and act promptly on resolving this issue.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Who deleted my post?

Reference the car analogy: you would have test driven it before you bought it.

If you didnt try out the Kaiser in a shop to make sure it did what you wanted, then you can't complain.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] damnhao:
i didnt read all 98 pages, but has anyone thought of also complaining to the carrier? i'm sure if at&t gets enough pissed off customers, they'll push HTC to do something?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] GSLEON3:
@TommyCP

Well, what we do know is that an HTC press release touting the MSM7200 chips mentioned 3d & acceleration properties & capabilities of the chipset.

We also know that a recent statement indicated that these functions were never enabled nor were they ever intended to be enabled.

My main concern is the fact that they said (paraphrasing of course :rolleyes:) "the MSM7200 is advanced & can do this, this, this & this & that". They then say "Hey we use this great & advanced grounding breaking chip in our new great device". But then, they say "well sure it can do that, but hey we never said we'd make it do that".

Still, they most certainly inferred it & used the information as a marketing point. Touting features & abilities they knew they would not eneable as a means to market a device is just wrong & irreprehensible & most certainly unethical marketing practices but may just turn out to be illegal as well.

It would be like me saying "Hey I'm selling a new Cadillac Model with a new V12 motor that can go 0-60 in 3.5 seconds & has the ability to top out at a speed of 165MPH. The I sell you a car with a v12 that has bypassed 6 of the valves essentially making it a v6 that can only go 85 & do 0-60 in 18 seconds. When you get upset, I just say, "Hey I said it was possible, I said the motor could do that, but I never said I would enable it, I never said the specific car I sold you would do that, I just said it could do it & that it had the equipment to do it".

I'm not responsible for what you believe based on my marketing & the specs provided for the engine I use right? I said it has it, but never told you it would be enabled. (Sure I touted it, & sure I never told you it wouldn't do it, & sure I said it was equiped with the right epuipment to do it, but hey...I'm not responsible for the opinions you form! Even though it was me that formed them, right?).
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] PhilipL:
Hi

The Kaiser is still more juddery, but they are closer.

It looks like all that is happening is on the faster speed demo TomTom doesn't try and attempt to smooth the motion with lots of frames as that allows it to speed it up the motion. This means both devices look similar, both juddery.

The demo doesn't show the Kaiser performing better, it shows the 8525 performing worse due to TomTom just skipping frames to achieve the speed.

What we should be seeing is much smoother motion on the Kaiser even at faster speeds due to it's fast processor and accelerated 2D graphics, but as there are no accelerated graphics and processor cycles are used up on drawing the screen, they both end up looking about the same.

Also in this demo is lack of detail as there are few road names appearing which would stress the software rendering on the Kaiser much more.

If I run a demo on my Kaiser with TomTom at half speed, which should result in really smooth motion, it's has the same lack luster refresh as it does running the demo at the maximum speed.

Regards

Phil
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
As I have said on about five occassions already, all of these people have to firstly apply to their supplier (network/retailer) and give them a chance to satisfy their alleged mis-selling. That is who the contract is with.

If the network/retailer fail to make ammends, then the customer should sue them.

If they win - then well done them.

If they don't - then case over.

In the meantime, its interesting to note the recent posts from people starting to question both the kaiser's failings and b) htc's misalleged-selling.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
HTC has fully admitted that their "most powerful" devices were shipped without the drivers required for them to perform at their "most powerful" level. HTCClassAction.Org is about the lack and consequence of said missing drivers, which by the way involves all of HTC's Qualcomm based devices, not just the Kaiser.

What do all of these HTC Qualcomm based devices have in common? For one, they struggle to play mobile optimized video (not high resolution video) such as those found on Youtube Mobile or live Sprint TV. One of the first Pocket PC software I purchased was SPB Mobile DVD to encode my collection. Sadly even at their lowest resolution setting, which is 20 FPS qVGA 320x240 WMV, my Mogul performs like ****.

The fact older devices have been shown to perform better only adds to the outrage, but none of that matters when all one needs is to try and play minimum length, low resolution video. Once you've come to grips with the fact you've been deceived into purchasing a high performance device that does not deliver, then everything under performing about it, whether proven to be driver related or not, gets thrown into the outrage. That is human nature and frankly HTC deserves all the rotten apples people can throw at em.

I understand your post is Kaiser-centric and attempts to shed light on possible confusion. But understand that you are posting this in a thread titled "HTCClassAction.org - Driver issue awareness and possible lawsuit investigation". The missing drivers issue is no longer in doubt.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] potpeye:
WOW why is everyone now second guessing everyones reason and needing to prove what is and isn't after so long. At this rate give up and don't bother.

If you asking what this is all about in the end it about HTC advertising a device a certain spec and way and then consumers purchasing the device and it not offering what was advertised.

Doesn't matter if it works fine and on others it slow or faster who cares!!! People have thier own opinion on what is consider acceptable and what isn't.

But the whole community can agree that HTC advertise a product in a way that we expected the device to offer hardware 3D graphic accelaration regardless on what we going to use it for or ever us it.

As a consumer even if the device is super powerful and does everything fine and I never ever use the graphics hardware guess what hey u advertise the capabilites and the hardware then it better be there simple as that.

So what are we mad about again i know what i mad about and it isn't my performance more than what i expected cause it was advertise to me that way.

Everything i see provided by others is just a means of explaining the effects of the non existant drivers and we not trying to say OMG we cant use this device.