yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
From a litigation standpoint, this problem relates to overall system performance, this is essentially a pc, it is touted a as a 'pocket pc' and should (by standard practice) include drivers to support all available periferals (with exception to VGA as a second VGA port is not installed, though there is VGA ported to the LCD, the device has a display, audio, wireless, keyboard, touch screen, and USB), when the system is forced to rely on software based graphics processing/rendering engine, that software module runs on the main system processor and will adversly affect battery life as the OS task list caches processor tasks from the app level and normal OS functions, in effect the only thing it will not effect in terms of perfomance is the phone/802.11x/BT radio or (RIL), though a portion of BT process is ported to the OS (audio), 802.11x data R/W throughput to system volume or running app, and Phone app, all of which remain affected and are exceptionally poor performing, as the MSM7XXXX chipset uses a dual core processor, one for the OS/APP level and one for (RIL), anything ported to the OS will suffer this performance shortcomming.

There is plenty of documentation of HTC blatently leading the public to believe they are getting a device that performs better than previous PPC's (quoted in public that it renders 3D, which it does via software based GPU run on main system processor with cost to overall system performance degredation), when in fact they produce a PPC that is worse than 2 year old phones, and are now taking the complaint of the consumers as a request offered on future devices, we are all consumers, we are all victims of, and offended by HTC's actions.

So the case may drag on, the case is something that they wish to have and chosen by the actions they have carried out, as they have defrauded the consumer, and from the looks of it, can be prosecuted as a criminal act, so beyond all of this class action stuff, they may face more than a civil matter.

All, no one should expect to gain any money out of this, but should hold an expectation of justice, in my mind that would be HTC penalized for their actions and a driver ordered by the court released in their ROMs, this I would like to see beyond the standard bugfixs in their ROM's.

Everyone is concerned about the money portion, and the millions in legal defense it will cost HTC, cost required for our attorney's and so forth, this is the gamble they took by releasing this PPC assuming we are all idiots as consumers, so 4th quarter earnings for '07 are going to look quite a bit different when the truth of the matter is out, sometimes a great year can be your worst, if you invested in HTC, either by means of stock, or as a consumer...

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
To add to your magnificent logic, these pocket computers are sold at prices upwards of $600 and can end up costing you $1200 if taken on a 3 year carrier contract. Dell couldn't get away with shipping $499 laptops without drivers, why should HTC?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ach2:
Another angle we can take to get publicity... All those people who invest in stocks and have access to discussion boards for the Taiwan stock exchange should post info and links about the problem and a possible class action lawsuit.

This will then get investors (who don't necessarily read the tech press) to question the longterm value of their shares. Any potential for a big fine gets investors jittery and ready to hit the SELL button :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Chill =) No need to get all "Judge Judy" here.

Just stating my opinion on the matter. If you don't like it - don't read it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
So does this mean we will also need to wait for a new model to get decent bluetooth headset support?

http://www.europe.htc.com/z/pdf/press/HTCParrotPartnership_080122a.pdf
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
The question should be asked to Dell and the answer documented, this might serve as a means of what is considered acceptable to business done in the orient vs. the US, and might genuinely bring attention to treaty and trade agreements, and the possibility that there may be wrong doing in that area as well. More lawyers sniffing around, yep, a bad time to be owning in HTC...

<edit>

What it really boils down to is this: Would you knowingly buy a portable computer system with a video adapter that includes a video driver that does not take advantage of the hardware, reduces your battery life, and lags the rest of the system just to do it's job? Did they tell us about this anywhere in the advertising or system documentation? They did tell us about the existance of the qc chipset, the chipset documentation specs are public allowing us as consumers to make an informed decision as to the overall system specs before purchase.

Dell and many other PC vendors are actually guilty of the same concept, but not really on the video hardware side of things, what they do is install a software based modem (PCTEL/Conexant HSP modems, even USR/3COM makes one), it does lag the system when in use, but not to the point where it is so notable with systems running over 1GHZ and it does not do it when the modem is not in use, but even in that, we as consumers have the ability to remove the software based modem and install a modem that contains it's own processor (USR/3COM), and the video adapter is in use all of the time the device is being used, we do not really have these options here.

</edit>

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] met3ora:
When the suit finally comes, keep an eye here: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=2498.TW
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I think that's an excellent explanation. Imagine you're browsing for a dell laptop, you read the specs - there's a, I dunno, AMD DualCore 64Bit processor capable of 2.6GHz. Pretty standard scenario.

So, all excited, you buy it, and them BOOM - surprise. There's some kind of a custom tailored DELL MoBo that renders all the standard AMD processor support useless. And DELL says that they will not release the drivers to get advantage of the processor. Oh, and currently that processor is using only one core and is running at, oh, say, 500MHz. Oh, and there's no current support of 64Bit addresses either.

"Well, yes, that's the processor, and that's what it's capable of. We never said we'd actually USE it all."

How would you feel? I'd be EXTREMELY pissed.

edit:

Problem is that PDA marked is still young and fresh. PDAs are still a magical device that people don't know how to buy or what to expect. With PCs - it's a whole different deal - market for them is older, more stable. There are laws in place (and not only written government laws) that prohibit companies from doing stupid things like using 10% of hardware capabilities or not providing drivers/support. It's only a matter of time until PDA market gets same kind of laws/regulations.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
This device differs from the definition of PDA, a PDA would be defined as an early Palm Pilot, they refer to these devices as a 'pocket pc', and should follow the same basic guildlines as a notebook computer running the windows OS.

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Ok then, PocketPC. That makes my point even more valid then, imo.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] EeekiE:
It is like them advertising a car with a familiar engine code that relates to a turbo-charged car, raving about how it's the most powerful car yet, only to find when you get it they've used the engine in a naturally aspirated form. They haven't lied about the engine code, but they've certainly mislead me into purchasing something I don't want.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I think one of our main points should be the relation to the PC/Mac market. Similar scenario would definitely spawn a lawsuit in that market. So if it's not tolerated in PC/Mac world, why would it be as "logical" and "totaly fair" (as HTC puts it) in PPC world?

If they'd be in, say, PC market and after you bought your computer, they would've told you "Oh yeah, by the way... since your laptop is priced as it is, your nVidia 8800GTX is currently only able to display standard Windows environment, like Word and Excel. We will consider releasing your laptop in a more "entertainment-focused" version later on. That version will also be able to play DVDs and maybe even some simple game support."
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
Here's another thought.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHQL_Testing

Here's a thought, when HTC installed this driver in the OS, did they agree to something that might provide increased system instability (like periodic freezups, unresponsive audio-phone not ringing, choppy video) ???

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
(note that I am reading all this)

I still have a bunch of CorePlayer licenses left which I can give out. However I have also gotten many PMs from people I have never heard of with 1 or 2 posts, these I will currently not consider. But anyone active in this topic is welcome to one.

Note that I have already given about half out, and everybody so far seems to agree it works a hell of a lot better :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] margatenj:
someone with more time then me should post a Poll asking if we (Kaiser owners) would ever even consider buying or recommend another HTC product.

with this much bullsh*t, I'd never buy HTC again. I work for the state government of Pennsylvania, and you know what its like picking a brand/device that I'm now stuck with and have to support that doesn't have any FRIGGIN drivers!?!?

HTC is screwing with my lively hood, making me look like a fool for picking this device instead of going with something safe like blackberry ... next year, blackberrys for sure ... if I still have this job... and some dumbF questioned about bothering with a lawsuit... buy 80 of them at full retail and see how you feel... I could have gotten 8525s and had a better working device at half the price (or lower).

When and IF the drivers come out, HTC should PAY us the difference in value from what they sell for now and what we paid for them originally.

If the price drops $200 dollars... the State of PA would like its $16,000 dollars of its tax payers dollars back!

If they [HTC] does not come out with the drivers working as they state in print, I'm going to have to buy 80 devices for video and still photography.

I left a lot of what I wrote half finished and I'm sure you can read between the lines.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] met3ora:
HTC won't pay us the difference. HTC isn't Apple.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ach2:
You're thinking on the same lines as me (a couple of posts before). If there are message boards attached to these financial posts then we need to highlight the problems and let the investors decide where to put their money.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
What is the thought?

And what does WHQL have to do with anything?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] pjwilkin:
No HTC seem to be money grubber,s only interested in flogging devices for immediate profit

Their statement on going to buy a new device if you want the facilities stated for the Tytn II shows HTC dont care

Several friends already asked about HTC products (including the Touch Dual), I advised them not to bother, and go find another company (pointing them here for references both on the problem, and HTC's apparent contempt)

several now have selected non-HTC phones (some even went for a Crackberry). Others are still looking for alternatives.

If HTC doesnt ship drivers and fixes for the issues we have, I'm sure a lot of people here will abandon HTC for their rivals. If these are not WM devices, Microsoft will also have lost customers. It'd be interesting to see the view of someone from MS (probably they'd say it's HTC issue, but this "poor performance" is pushing people away from WM as well as HTC)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
WHQL is not mandatory. It's only for branding purposes... Like "Yeah, we're Microsoft and this thingy works real well with windows". It's a marketing scam, you pay to have "Designed for Windows" on your products, which will _supposedly_ help them sell.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
It is a bit more than a scam, it provides the potential for debug level peer review, for a lot of reasons, security and system stability being the two most important and relevant here.

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Perhaps, although I haven't seen any benefit of WHQL except for marketing. But, I have been wrong before.

Anyway, you think it can help us in any way?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
There has been a lot of coders just slapping together drivers and pushing things out the door (take a look at bugtrack on securityfocus.com and the recent focus on drivers mainly in wireless NICs to compromise a machine), not much for producing security or quality, this might be a way of proving that a soft GPU is out of the question when your only playing with 400MHZ, in effect proving that the unit shipped with a defective driver, and being that this unit employs software acceleration, this module is running at a machine level with likely not much consideration to security, I wonder if it would be possible to compromise the OS by use of the soft GPU....

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I highly doubt it.. I can imagine that using SW render would provide higher code complexity and hence descrease the reliability.. aside from, say, using assembler to pass acceleration to HW component..

I'm no expert in HW graphics acceleration, but I don't think Sw render security hole is anything we can prove or use.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
Yeah, but I don't think WHQL applies to the Mobile OS. At least I haven't ever seen mobile hardware with such a designation.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
Search bugtrack on flash player, the soft GPU is lightweight because they need it to run fast, when acceleration is needed the software acceleration kicks, and probably with no error handling runing with machine privs and will likely bomb on error, and we aren't running segmented memory here for processes, my question is can the OS be compromised via the same type of attack that was used on macromedia flash player, you know, a media file asking for accelerated graphics, producing an overflow causing exception error with an injected piece of code remaining in memory, and running with machine privs.

A proof of concept code might be in order, a security vulnerability might just be what they need for a reason to switch over to the hard GPU.

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
In any case there's a lot of bugged and low performing WHQL drivers and a lot of bugless and well performing drivers that are not WHQL.

From the IHVs I've spoken to it's mostly seen as a way for Microsoft to make some extra cash since the IHVs know that most people will be afraid of the "not signed" promt.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
Its interesting that in addition to being touted as pocket pc; its also touted as a cell phone; however, it does not even perform well as a cell phone given the speaker phone problem (as well as bt problem). Even the cheapest cell phone I have used; had a decent speaker phone. I am unsure if the non use of the chipset is related to the speaker problem;but you do bring interesting point that audio is also ported to the processor; so if entire processor is not being utilized; maybe audio for speakerphone and BT also is compromised; in essence a lot of features of the phone may fail or operate very poorly due to lack of proper drivers/processor use.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
Exactly, if Windows kernel is not properly running or configured, how could one expect anything dependant upon it to run properly.

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
From a security prospective, since the advent of 'data fuzzing', and the automated use of it, I don't entirely believe that it has been a total wash.

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
That is a good point; but is it that windows kernal is not properly running or configured?

or due to the fact that windows kernal is caused problems because it cannot be implemented correctly due to lack of proper drivers/processor use?

One seems to suggests its a windows problem; where the other seems to suggest its a lack of proper drivers/processor use.

Only want to make sure i am interpreting correctly what your saying....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] chopsui:
Why hasn't the HTC class action website been updated since HTC's more detailed response to Engadget's inquiry last friday?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
with regard to whql certification, does any know if wm6 requires such; if it does; then there might be some relavence to this; but if not; it appears to be a non issue; anyone know on this?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
chopsui, chainfire has been making every effort to update the site. Remember, he is only one man; chainfire is currently trying to simplifiy the site into more layman terms; this is massive under taking though it might seem easy. Im sure he's aware of engadget's inquiry; but as i said before, he has a lot on his plate....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Seriously, I'm currently considering just updating the page as it was a bit and just uploading that. After about 4 complete rewrites of the entire site, which all left me just as unhappy as I am with the current site, I'm starting to have had enough of it :D

Every way I do it, I seem to drop important information left and right...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
Chainfire why don't you setup the different site revisions you have like so:

htcclassaction.org/test1 .. /test2 .. test3

and maybe we can give you some feedback on the different rewrites that you have done.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] None01:
I first want to say thanks to Chainfire for everything and all you other guys!!!

I have been tracking this conversation since page 1 and it freaks me out to hear that HTC didn't wanted to meet the consumer’s requests at the beginning.

Just to think that this kind of case needs this much work of so many people just freaks me out!

If there is something that I have learned, then it’s to never trust HTC again even if they at last release those drivers.

I am trying to get this attention everywhere I can, mainly because people that buy the touch dual or tytn II are people that didn’t have any real experience with windows mobile driven phones as me, so they don’t know what the right speed is.

But after seeing those clips of how really old phones can outperform the Kaiser, it just shocked me!

When I wanted to buy the Kaiser, I researched everything to make sure of making a great deal, after some time of reading all reviews on the web and on the magazines I just wanted that phone.

So I bought it for a really good deal of $948, which was a really good deal! (In Denmark the taxes are really high! :) )

And after some time when the threads about the drivers where made I just said to my self “okay HTC will not let this happen, no company in the world would have pissed of consumers”.

But now, I am losing more and more hope of something happening, so I started asking on every Danish forum to spread the word, contacted IT news sites and started asking people that know the Danish HTC tech department to give an answer (thought I never got an answer)

I am a pissed of consumer and I can say for sure, that I never again will buy a HTC phone (Yeah HTC you heard me right!) and never again recommend that brand. (Right now I just want to puke of the thought that I recommended HTC phones, I was young and stupid)

If someone just could get an employee of HTC to look at this thread and see how many users have written about this case and how we take this seriously they would maybe reconsider.

But a big company like HTC doesn’t have time to listen to their consumers, and that’s all right, cause they aren’t god.

But for gods sake some one took the liberty to make a website dedicated for an error, that without a question shouldn’t be there.

I don’t want to start making examples of what dell wouldn’t do; there are enough examples in this thread!

Sorry if there is some miss spelling here and for the bad language, but a angry HTC consumer just wanted to get his rage out.

Again, thank you Chainfire and remember you are not alone on this I there are a lot of people standing right behind you!

I’ll still read this thread each day and spread the word as much as I can, and I would recommend to all that they should do that too.

Greetings None01
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
It is both, believe me, windows has problems all by itself setting aside improper implementation of windows. Remember the days of Windows 9X where you could not go an entire day without rebooting? And MS boasting of a server OS that didn't have to be reboot for a whole two weeks (enter the NT4.0 days).

Look at it this way, you have a windows 9x box and you go out and buy a video card, install it but do not install the drivers for it (here you have windows running with a default 640X480 16/256 Color VGA driver provided by MS). What you end up with is less color capability and low resolution, no triagles for 3D and no implementation of Direct Draw. Now we have a slight deviation from there, you know how Windows 9X would require more reboots due to the running and closing of applications that are installed upon it due to the fact there are no memory reclaimation process built into the OS, now think about the soft GPU being one of those installed applications, open, close, open, close, every time you render something to the screen that requires triagles to produce a 3D image consuming and potentially not releasing more of your RAM from there, but there is more, your PC needs to use RAM to begin communicating to check your POP account, tries to but behaves really slow due to active processes in RAM are being inaccurately reported which means accurate available RAM is not being reported (kinda like when you need to run a scandisk and access to a volume in safe mode due to inaccrately reported free disk space), and wait, the RIL needs to swap to a newly detected closer cell tower, determine the type of wireless connection and tell windows the proper icon to put on the system tray (E/3G/H etc), then the phone rings, or rather there is an incomming call but the OS is too freaking busy to copy the sound file to the hardware for playback because the cpu cycles are still in use on previously requested normal operations and it is all being held up by safe mode access to RAM.

This is only one possible circumstance that will force a soft reset of your device, as you can see, it is a chain reaction leading to a clusterf*ck due to improper implementation of windows caused by a lack of proper hardware utilization. If you implement the hard GPU, the soft GPU is not required.

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
i know the feeling; and dont envy your position; one change; changes something else; or deletes something else which has to be expressed again; but differently.....

Suggestion: maybe you could just try and add links and simplify things through existing links as things progress...but dont change anything else unless you feel appropriate.... i looked at site and was thinking of changes to suggest; but everytime i thought about suggestion-- then came another thought of something else that might have to be changed... main thing is that it drives the point home of what your trying to get across....

and this is accomplished through the first page.....if there is confusion that exists in what your trying to say... i would try and say it here... leave other pages alone or let them develop as time goes by