yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] potpeye:
......this topic and the website has been going on for a very long time. Now people coming out of the woodworks trying to contradict and ask questions that may or may not be valid to deter what we are trying to accomplish.

Can we just stop and move foward with the class action. I don't care what individuals feel about this, there has been months to post your reply and comments but now that we at the point we ready to take action you decide to post and tells us whatever is wrong or wont work come on now..........

Just please stop and lets have future comments with the steps required or whats needed to get this class action started.

If you don't agree then i suggest you handling this issue however you seems fit in another forum topic cause everyone else here is wanting action. The only question in our mind is how. Win or lose we want to try bottom line.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
It's too bad. This issue looks like it's dying out in the public eye. A google search for "HTC" doesn't turn up a thing about this issue anymore.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] potpeye:
Driving force of media is news I know duhhh. That being said if i was the media all i see now is a empty threat of a class action. You want the media eyes again then it time to do what caught thier eye in the first place Class Action. Cause that news not old news you know what i mean.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I fully agree. If you don't see the points of all of this - don't visit these topics. There are thousands and thousands of people who are pissed and are willing to facilitate the lawsuit in every way.

So please. Back to the point people.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hoot:
day after day without drivers HTC earns "How To Cheat" callsign...

damn, finally it's weekend here so I hope to find time and to write a very formal letter of complaint to HTC Management and Supervisory Board

as soon as ready - I'll share it with you so a kind of mass action could be considered; then the letters with probable negative HTC reply can be presented to media raising interest again*

* to HTC staff reading the posts - you really want this??? isn't it just simpler to start respecting own customers?

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hoot

HTC=HowToCheat?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
For the few naysayers, attached is the Palm Treo Class Action, which of course Palm settled.

HTC has been given ample time to address the issue via an official petition and consumer complaints. Instead, after a class action initiative was launched, HTC has chosen to issue a statement that can only be described as the epitome of arrogance.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dagurasu:
Chainfire I love your work here and I know this is well intended,... but it seems there's a point missing. Whatever happened to doing the right thing? I don't think it's good moral values to pressure (financially legally or otherwise) people for things they don't owe you. If there is no legal case (and I think there's probably not), then they don't owe you. And if they don't owe you, then pressuring them with the threat of legal expenses may get what you want, but it's just not a nice thing to do.

We can all get devices from other companies. The only thing HTC did wrong was to make the ones we like best. Otherwise nobody would be threatening them with anything.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hoot:
disagree

I must disagree.

No matter what the country is, a manufacturer is responsible for its product. No matter if it is CPU limitation, GPS or GSM failure or just video underperformance. Each means that a customer cannot use a product to full of its capacity declared in specification. And it means a stock device is faulty (does not meet its specs) and a manufacturer is responsible.

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HTC=HowToCheat?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
So then we should compile a list of all complaints and start making things happen. :)

Video/Graphics performance in general is sub-par and 3D performance is absent, even compared to older devices. That one is for granted.

Touchscreen usage seriously impairs the device performance. That one is also given.

Camera performance renders it unusable in dim conditions. Given.

A lot of people have some Bluetooth issues, we need to properly define what these issues are.

Some people are having trouble with the USB connector.

Personally I have some slight problems with the touchscreen not responding from time to time (ie I have to press four or five times before something happens and this is unrelated to sensitivity settings) - I dunno if I'm alone with this?

Also please remember that brining up poor scrolling performance in IE is not against any rules just because ther's an unofficial fix for this. A lawsuit should not be in any way concerned with hacks, tweaks, cooked ROMs or anything like that.

ie when compiling a list of complaints look for issues present in the official ROM of your phone. Don't "count out" a problem just because you know there's an unofficial fix for it.

If you guys are interested you could send me your list of issues to me in a PM and make sure you only list issues that you experience in the default ROM (or at least a default HTC ROM). If the issue is not well documented please specify what ROM/Radio you are using and how to reproduce the issue.

That way we could produce a proper list without having all the clutter of starting a new thread in the forums.

When the list is "full" I'll do my best to verify all issues and then forward it to Chainfire and at the same time post it here.

I think we might need as much ammo as possible if we want to go after HTC.

If we can "prove" that the Kaiser in general is not functioning as expected then it will probably be easier to use in a lawsuit rather than just complaining about one feature.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dagurasu:
It's possible you're right. I don't honestly know enough about it.

It seems though like everyone here would have paid the same even explicitly told in the specs that they weren't going to get this.

Furhtermore.. there is ALWAYS something in a device not fully taken advantage of. When 1 ghz cpus first came out bus speeds couldn't keep up and even when they did, not all boards had high speed buses. Should they be sued because they didn't provide the bus to take full advantage of the chip they advertised? What shold they on the specs then... lie and say the chip is slower than it actually is? That's kind of silly.

again.. it's possible I'm misunderstanding, but this sounds like the situation. Did HTC actually state in teh specs that this hardware would be fully supported (or simply what's in it) if so that's different.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hoot:
IMHO

I guess you can differentiate 2 cases:

1) you buy CPU and motherboard separately, each to its specs which you accept (CPU-1Ghz, MB-suporting up to...<1GHz) and you assemble it on your own - it's OK, you knew the specs, accepted them and the limitation of the slower one

2) you buy a computer as a whole being said it's 1GHz. then it's the declaration and obligation of a manufacturer to deliver such device to you. and you may even not know it has anything called CPU or MB - you buy a 1GHz device which is promised to you when purchasing

that's my opinion (but I'm not a layer), and probably as no one here has assembled its kaiser on its own - it's case 2 to be relevant

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hoot

HTC=HowToCheat?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
It seems as if you simply haven't read enough:

1. HTC touts this device as the most powerful device of it's kind. Yet in all graphic related areas it's even slower than their own two year old devices. Now one could argue that it's more powerful in all other areas but still the basic graphics rendering is a cornerstone performance factor.

2. HTC touted the 3D and VGA encoding and decoding capabilities in their initial Kaiser/MSM press release. (ie false advertising)

3. HTC state, in their product broschure, that the phone is good for gaming and entertainment - it is clearly not.

4. It is a de facto industry standard to provide drivers for the hardware you sell when you sell a complete computer or device unless the specs state otherwise. It is something that a consumer can reasonably expect without it having to be specifically stated anywhere.

5. The simple fact that support personal has promised a large amount of people a fix for the issues is also something HTC should be accountable for.

6. Apart from the general video driver issues there are also issues with the touchscreen performance, the camera is not really usable at all in dim conditions and then there's the issues fully unrelated to graphics but that are still issues that should be brought up in an eventual lawsuit such as the poor bluetooth implementation.

Beyond this HTC has made, through regional branch offices, claims about offering software upgrades for TouchFLO and WorldMobile that they months later on retracted without issuing any official statement about retracting the claims. (These claims were made available to potential consumers, not just current consumers ie it might have had a direct impact on peoples decision wether to purchase a device or not.)

HTC support has also made various claims about updates that simply are not true that they should be held accountable for.

In other words a lawsuit is not as far fetched, unreasonable or immoral as you seem to think.

That's the way I see it, I'm not saying that it's the "truth" or anything as morality is extremely subjective.

Edit: about support making wild claims about fixes I personally think that's really bad policy.

My set top box is known to have severe image quality and performance issues. The support reps have been claiming that "a fix is coming" for over a year now. When the fix came it didn't actually help it made matters worse. Problem is it got people waiting for a year so now people can't return their units because they actually fell for the "a fix is coming", much like people might have fallen for HTCs claims about an upcoming fix that are clearly not true.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dagurasu:
you make some points which could have merit. I suppose I'll have to read more. I still think people like these devices though or they wouldn't spend so much time fixing them.... something which is their choice to do vs buying another device.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Ok guys... we're all pretty pissed about this situation in one way or the other. Let's keep the agression down - we'll need it for later =)

Besides, we're all in the same boat. Let's focus on facts and follow the news. We can all argue later all we want, after everybody has drivers in their Kaiser hehe.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dagurasu:
on thing at lest. Most sue happy folks are happy to complain than do something productive to make things better. At least with the folks around here, that's clearly not the case.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hoot:
don't or don't want?

once again - I may be wrong, since I'm not a layer and each country has it's own specific regulations, but some terms remain common - like responsibility for the product

I don't really know if you don't understand or don't want to understand

I'm not upgrading anything in my kaiser, I bought it as a whole with specs and ads promising something else I've got actually and that's the case

what I am really surprised at is the ease you accept limitations... you buy a car, let's say called to be an Aston Martin in it's class. you read specs, watch ads and you can see it's capable of 240km/h, has fast and effective AC and multimedia center built-in with DVD, CD and FM support. Great! The price is adequate...

You leave the dealer's point at 60km/h and cannot drive any faster. It's OK, you say - specs said it is CAPABLE of reaching 240km/h which does not mean it drives 240km/h all the time, right? So you try to accelerate - still 60km/h. Not faulty?

You switch on AC setting it to 18C. But it does not work below 22C. Come on, it doesn't have to, right? Since 18C is minimum and may not be reached? Or... maybe your driving too slow?

You put DVD to the player and nothing happens. "Disc not recognized, insert CD only". Who said it has to play DVDs? CDs were mentioned too...

Now tell me one thing. You say there are always limitations. Which do you accept? 1st? 2nd? 3rd? Or all? Or is it enough the car drives 240km with faulty AC and DVD that you accept it and won't take it to service point?

At the end - you've just bought Aston Martin, value among cars for adequate money. Maybe this will make you think...?

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HTC=HowToCheat?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ahmadashar:
PC world

hey guys,

i was woundering if we can contact PCworld to cover our sad story abt the driver prob. i've found editors of pcworld who work in Mobile devices and services -Cell phones, PDAs, GPS, mapping. their emails and names are as follows.

Denny Arar

denny_arar@pcworld.com

Eric Butterfield

eric_butterfield@pcworld.com

I would love to rite them myself to cover our story, but i dont know what exactly should i tell them so they cover HTCClassAction.org. I was hoping either you could rite them or tell me wat to rite them them. IT would be great if pcworld covers us.

just trying to help
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greenbrd:
I'm afraid that's not totally accurate. If a lawsuit against HTC seeks financial renumeration, then you are correct in that the attorney fees will likely be free (though there could be expenses involved). Whatever the award is, the lawyers will take 40% off the top for their troubles and I seriously doubt if anybody here will be happy with what remains after it is divvied up.

But if we're just looking for a "fix" from HTC (ie, new drivers) - which is all most of us want - then the attorneys will indeed need to be paid. I don't know how it works in other countries, but most good lawyers in the US charge around $300-$400 per hour. Even if the bounty money was 100% real, it would only pay for a few days of a lawyer's time.

Keep in mind that companies like HTC have in-house legal teams, so any litigation against them will not cost HTC "millions" as some are claiming. Plus, their lawyers can and will stretch this thing out for YEARS - two or three years, easily. Likely even more. Which means that even if we somehow had the means to see this through to the end, most of us will be one or two devices down the road by the time a fix is delivered, and the fix will be worthless to us.

I don't mean to be a bubble-burster or to come across as an ass. I'm just as pissed off as anybody about being cheated, but I think a lot of people here have unrealistic expectations about how this will all go down.

I think the most effective steps we can take are in the negative publicity realm: give the Tilt/Kaiser poor reviews on any sites that allow user reviews (speak the truth but don't be jerky about it or you won't sound credible); dissuade anybody you personally know from buying an HTC product; and - if you are one of us who have said "I'll never buy from HTC ever again" - stick to your guns and never buy from HTC ever again, no matter how sexy their next device looks on paper. Heck, by the time most of us are ready to upgrade, the market will be littered with Kaiser- and iPhone-clones and HTC will not be the only game in town.

Of course, I could be wrong about any or all of this.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dagurasu:
This seems to me like the fundamental problem. If they are so bad compared to "market standards" for "supporting their product" (to paraphrase lanugage used here) then why wouldn't you want your money back so you can get another product that's supported better?... the answer is becuase nobody else can offer more, and you got your money's worth... you just want more... it doesn't sound like being cheated. (edit: the bottom line is it's disengenous... nobody here HONESTLY feels like they aren't getting a good deal on these devices... except the people who returned them)

I will not put up bad reviews. Especially whith the GPS update(which certaily will be public soon) my mogul is the best phone that exists inspite of what it doesn't do. I will tell everyone that. Who the heck expects a phone to play quake 3D anyway? It's a phone, phones should do alot conveniently, but I don't expect them to do much terribly well... thats what stereos and TV's and desktops and tomtom's and cameras and pocket organizers and electronic dictionaries are for. Buy something else and find something better to do than sue phone companies becuase your video isn't fast enough. I should follow my own advice and quit arguing with people on a cell phone forum on Friday evening.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
If you had read this thread you would know it's a simple question of misrepresentation, supported by facts not rhetoric. No corporation should be allowed to get away with it. And yes, why would someone such as yourself submit appeasement posts in a thread like this on a Friday evening?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ahson:
that may be so but..

Even if this does drag on for years like you say, as soon as the words class action law suit hit, investors will take their money else where, you will be able to SEE the stock value drop like a rock. So HTC really does not want to see this threat mature, thats a fact.

Take for instance, if a person is not guilty of theft, but is arrested on theft charges, most people will automatically assume that he or she is guilty, and even if they don't assume he or she is guilty they will definitely think he MIGHT be guilty. Most people wont even look at the facts. Same thing with this law suit, most investors will see this law suit and sell, it wouldn't matter so much that HTC might not be liable. Just the fact that the law suit might stick, will be enough to scare investors away, especially with the direction of the current economy.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Infornography:
It's still sad to see that we're at 105 pages without a significant resolution. HTC isn't worried at all since we haven't filed suit. And on their press page a few pages back they state that there is no basis or fear of a class action. We need movement, we need action.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
At the risk of having my agenda questioned, yet again, I think that the recent posts have crystallised the issues for me.

I had a hermes (an orange branded m3100) which I flashed with various cooked roms. Last September, I replaced it with an HTC Tytn (at the time with the stock orange rom). At that time - straight out of the box, the device responded quicker and better than the Hermes in every way - except for the camera in low light.

So my Orange rom'd Kaiser was faster to react to input/screen taps etc than my Black Majik'd Hermes.

Since then I have flashed the Kaiser with Dutty's V3 rom (not a stripped out performance rom) and its even faster. I have also installed the latest camera cab and although the camera is slow in low light, it is the best phone cam in normal light that I have ever had. Probably not quite as a good as an N95's camera or the best Sony Ericsson... but they caren't a patch on the Kaiser's other functions.

So for the fourth time on this thread: Are certain branded devices/roms responsible for the "appalling" video issues? Or maybe as others have suggested, is it more that there's a certain type of person who hates having a device with chips that aren't fully utilised, and that person has allowed his ego and expectations to be chivvied up by others here too?

I am not pointing the finger at anyone, but I do think that the pack mentality here has contributed to blowing this issue out of all proportion.

Oh and before my agenda is questioned: I support this place and the iniatives to get the max out of our devices - but I abhor the HTC bashing that has gone on in this thread and particularly some of wilder conspiracy theories.

This is a discussion board for sharing views. Please don't flame me for mine.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
Well, I don't really want to add a marathon post and this isn't a flame but I own the SPV 3100 and used black majik and shadow. I definitely feel my orange kaiser is slower.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
At the risk of actually getting somewhere... is it slower "out of the box" or did you install third party apps that might have contributed?

Even though both devices were WM6 (albeit the Black roms were cooked), I found some apps would run well on the hermes and not on the kaiser and vice versa.

Are both devices set up similarly? Have you run kaiser tweak to set the kaiser up the same was as your 3100 (in terms of memory pool etc)?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Guys I'm reading all of this but I'm not replying in full because I am not at home. I'm making an exception to this one though.

BTW, things ARE going on 'behind the scenes', it just takes some time.

They do owe us. The comment about it not being important if we win is about getting the results we seek. I am not 100% sure if the US class action suit will win, but I am a billion % sure that the case would be won if presented here in a court of law. The difference being that over here we don't have the 'class action' thing. It's about impact. If the lawyers don't believe our case will stick they wont run with it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] forcedalias:
Educate yourself

Got to love the people that still think we're fighting HTC just because we can't play high-end 3d games or high resolution video.

Dagurasu, it's a matter of wanting our phones to perform at the very least as good as their predecessors for simple WM6 usage (which is currently plagued with slow screen-refresh).

Battery life would also improve if the correct parts of the hardware are used for the display as oppose to the CPU.

Besides, whatever they advertise they owe us, especially at the premiums we've been paying them.

So, all in all, please read the friggin' site before posting.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Atlantaman:
I see the problems with the video, but I don't see the problems with screen refresh generally. I had the 8525 before this and the 8925 seems miles faster (especially after the PIE scroll fix and the newer camera application). To be honest before seeing these threads I would not have thought there was a big problem. I have been really pleased with the improvement over previous PDA phones. JJ
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] met3ora:
And that's fine if you are, and I appreciate you not taking a militant position against us, saying things like "Who the hell cares?" and whatnot. It's just that the rest of us aren't as pleased with our devices as you. Although it doesn't look like I need to explain anything to you, as you seem to understand.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] notten:
Before I bought the phone I read the specs on the CPU. The things that stuck out: Multi-core technology, high speed broadband implementations for both HSDPA and EVDOrevA (MSM7[2,5]00), 3d graphics acceleration, and tons of chipset-style features packed in by Qualcomm. I actually got a hard-on the first time I read the specs. Please check out the interface for a Nokia N95 to see what a graphics-accelerated phone GUI looks like, and compare that performance to your "sloppy seconds" Kaiser.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F53tOOTbtZg&feature=related <- enjoy
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Atlantaman:
Well I guess you guys have me convinced on the video side. Maybe I am just comparing with my older PDA phones, though I do admit watching video, gaming etc is not a big part of what I use it for. I was just pleased I no longer faced endless soft and hard resets and the old not waking up business. But hey, keep up the fight for better performance guys. JJ
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
Now I'm really upset! makes our Tilt/TyTnII's look like a turtle.