yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] PhilipL:
Hi

A PowerPoint from Qualcomm on it's chips and ATI Imageon graphics.

Towards the end they try and get developers to go www.speqg.com to join the gaming alliance and also to access lots of technical documents and SDKs to develop hardware accelerated games. Funny how this site has also gone!

http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf

I wonder how long the above link remains available?

Regards

Phil
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FloatingFatMan:
I'm rather stunned at the number of views I've had for my video actually... 22,219. Pretty much every article about the driver issue has linked to it!

It's #13 in the Top Viewed Video's This Month (Science & Technology section)

and #61 Top Rated Video This Month (Science & Technology section)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ponicg:
So I got a response back from HTC:

I replied and let them know that they still don't understand our issue. I invited the CSR to call me and further discuss the issue so he could pass it along and together we could come up with a solution. The entire time I've kept a civil tone in my e-mails and attempted to get HTC(and Qualcomm) to realize the issue and allow us to help each other come to a solution. Let's see how this works out.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
Very good idea.

I created a special thread for Amazon.com :

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=363686
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] getwilde:
Great work tsadek. I went out to Amazon.co.uk to find your review (so I could mark it as "helpful"). While there, I found others who have started posting negative reviews mentioning driver issues, etc. It's starting!

When a product only has 6 reviews in the first place, and then a negative review is added, the overall rating drops quickly. When HTC sees that all of their Qualcomm-based products have lower star ratings than any competitor, on all of the major review sites, they'll feel the pressure. That costs them far more than any driver development or licensing. And writing a review is something average folks like you and I can do to make a difference.

If you have an opinion (and it seems that we all do :)), share it on sites that are viewed by people considering an HTC device. Let potential buyers know what they're REALLY getting with a current-gen HTC device.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
I only posted the review this evening and they say it is usually done the next day but can take up to 6 days so its not up yet but IT WILL BE!!!

And don't forget to mark it helpful!!

and mark the happy users as not helpful!!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
Here's one response I got...hopefully I will hear something soon. Just wanted to give everyone an update:

Thank you for contacting Green Welling LLP. I forwarded your email to an attorney for review. We will contact you after the review takes place.

In the meantime, we do not represent you, so if your issue is time sensitive, please take whatever steps you feel necessary to protect your interests. As a result, unless requested by an attorney, you should not send any information which you want treated confidentially. Remember to periodically check our website at www.classcounsel.com for information which might be helpful to you.

Yours very truly,

Maria V. Castillo

GREEN WELLING LLP

595 Market Street, Suite 2750

San Francisco, CA 94105

Tel: (415) 477-6700

Fax: (415) 477-6710

www.classcounsel.com
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ach2:
I posted mine after reading about your review and mine is on their review page already.

Also posted a review on expansys. Will keep trawling for other ways to give bad (but always honest) reviews.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
Interesting! Perhaps its being vetted because I included a website link? I suppose they have to make sure its not porn or illegal etc...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ponicg:
Hrm. So this issue is really irking me and I've been doing some digging. Looking at this PDF posted earlier: Brew Info PDF

You can see what I'm talking about. First go down to the section labeled Graphics Core MSM Lineup

You'll see that there are a few flavors of CDMA and UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA 7x00 processors.

There are ones with ARM 2D, No 3D: MSM7525, MSM7225

There are also ones with Imageon2D and Imageon3D: MSM7500, MSM7200

According to that chart, the MSM7500 has the Imageon processor. On this thread

There is a picture posted, of a Mogul disassembly: Picture of RAM/Flash and MSM Chips

Guess what - it's an MSM7500. That means, according to the documentation, that the Mogul(and any other confirmed MSM7500/7200 containing devices) do have ATi's Imageon hardware. HTC is lying to us. Also, this page on HTC's site lists the MSM7500, not the MSM7525. This means HTC has lied to us, repeatedly. Let's not be hasty in launching a lawsuit though - perhaps if backed into a corner by facts they'll be more willing to negotiate creation of said driver.

Sigh.

-George
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Like I said, lets give them a week of hell and if that doesn't buge them then a week of preparation of the lawsuit and then bam!

Lets start next week though.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
If you read the response carefully, they say they do not use ATi's Imageon hardware. This is different than saying the product does not contain ATi's Imageon hardware.

I think either way, from a case of potential litigation the position would be the same, but the possible remedy would be different. I think the primary desire for everyone is to have drivers. If the device does not include the hardware, then drivers awill do nothing.

But at any rate, I think it is highly unlikely that the chip does not include the ATi Imageon hardware as was referenced in the spec sheet. As you point out, wouldn't Qualcomm seek to differentiate the capabilities in name?

I don't know we will ever know the real sotry, but this smells a lot like a deliberate move for several reasons including costs savings, and the intent to plan obsolesence from the get go.

And who knows how it will play out? After all is said and done, this decision might put more money in the shareholders hands. So from an investment standpoint, this might be a very smart risk return scenario. After all, companies exist to make money. I happen to think alienating customers is a poor strategy, but it is pretty clear they do not see it this way.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ponicg:
The response I got(well the relevant portion) was

Which means you are right. They say that their MSM7xxx-based devices don't use ATi's Imageon video acceleration hardware. I think they're being very careful to word things in this way, as you've stated. "We do not use" is not the same as "this device does not have". I guess two things should have happened... 1. HTC shouldn't have expected us not to find out and scream like this.. and 2. I should have read their response a bit more before I posted something like "HTC is lying" I rescind my last statement that they are lying.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Well, one thing is for sure they wont do it for a reason. . . Why though, if you made a awesome device then why not provide all the things to make it aweosme and function like it should be?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dperren:
Think about it, if the reason the drivers havn't been written was that there was no Imageon hardware, they'd just have said it, and we wouldn't have had a choice except to get off their backs, ideal for them. Their (cleverly worded) reluctance to deny the presence of the hardware is confirmation that it is indeed present.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
So you have room to grow. There are still several significant new features to the Tytn II such as GPS and more memory, so essentially enough to get a good chunk of people to consider it an "upgrade". What next though? Advanced video playback, hmmm?

Or maybe they have a VGA device in the works and decided to push their R&D budget toward that end. Fair enough, but I think expectations were set on the capabilities of the MSM7xxx. So if you still want to think the best of their honor, perhpas they wanted to save some R&D cash to come out with a VGA device. I still think it was in poor judgment to quietly let people think the Tytn II would have all the greatness of the ATi capabilities.

Plus, it has been almost 2 years since the TYTN, so there were probably a lot of early adopters with contracts about to expire (at least for the US anyway).

All just speculation though. As I said, we will probably never know the real story.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Unless of course we sue them and make them tell us the reason while they are under oath!:eek:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] GSLEON3:
What's with Qualcomm website???

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this lately, but the Qualcomm, CDMATECH, etc...Websites are all operating in a quite peculiar way as of recent. It seems that all of the links to drawings, specifications, & other relevant statements are no longer accessible (at least not to me for the past several days). Any time I try to access this information, I end up in an endless loop that dumps me right back to the start page. Even the .pdf links are all going to a temporary redirect back to the front page.

Can anyone else confirm this? Please try going to CDMATECH.com, speqg.com & qualcomm.com & try accessing the MSM7200 or 7500 series info sheets. Try searching & see if the results point to a temp redirecting to the start page.

Very strange. :confused:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radeon123:
All the pdf links on qualcomm.com are redirecting me back to the home page :confused:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] scullness:
read the whole thread

Qualcomm is reviewing all their US documentation to insure it complies with the Broadcom ruling.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
Can Broadcom make drivers for us?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
No, certainly not.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] myk_83:
Just read this post from earlier in the thread... Particularly the point about include video acceleration hardware in future devices. That's all well and good, but the hardware is there in the Kaiser!! they just don't use it with software.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
Just a thought:

Obviously we need to continue to broaden our message. All (or at least most) who have followed this from the beginning "get it" whether they agree or not.

However, its also very clear that a lot of people who see this product and buy it and are happy with it but do not understand this issue or worse still are totally unaware.

There will be a proportion who don't care but conversely for some its their first PDA and they DON'T KNOW BETTER.

Part of this broadening is the posting of negative reviews, which I advocate strongly, but perhaps a wikipedia page may be of use?

There is already an external link to chainfire's website at the bottom of the htc page but perhaps someone who knows how could write a wiki page.

Would help bring our message to the masses.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] btbeeston:
If you want any of the PDFs try The Internet Archive (www.archive.org), that's where I downloaded the datasheet for the MSM7200 chipset from.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070607171540/http://www.cdmatech.com/msm7200

I haven't been able to find reference to the ATi Imageon in any of the datasheets on the site, however I have found many references to the 3D Hardware acceleration of the MSM7200.

"Dedicated hardware accelerating the entire 3D rendering process"
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] None01:
tsadek, there is allready something written about the drivers on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_TyTN_II
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
To be honest, I've broken my first rule of posting and didn't do a proper search first and just looked at the HTC page, so apologies for that!

That said perhaps a specific HTC class action page would be also useful??
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Well, then. Lets sue already. its been long over due and they seem like they are gonna fool the masses even more with their rewording trickery! I say next week we hit them hard.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Tim_HKG:
My newly bought TyTN II is not faster, even slower than my Eten M500 which was bought almost 3 years ago! My money had vanished, the upgrade was useless!

I was even banned on posting my dissatisfaction at the taiwanese mobile01.com, with so many HTC's advertisement...?

The tricky HTC never makes any promises to the customers because she knows that will paint herself into a corner. So she will only be responsive to some real actions, like a class action.

Go for it as soon as possible, set the Thames on fire!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
General comment relating to false advertising by HTC and use of Qualcomms msm 7xxxxx processor.

Prior to buying the tytnii, I did a lot of research on cell phones as well as relied on the processor specs.

Specifically, it was a toss up between the touch and tytnii; however, when i was doing this research (back in october), reviews for the touch complained of the lack of responsiveness of the phone due to the 200 mghz processor while reviews of the tytnii referred to the benefits of the qualcomm msm 7xxxx chipset. It was the cpu that swayed me to buy the tytnii; there was never any mention that the somehow part of qualcom msm 7xxx chipset would be disabled. In fact, the reviews i remember

Quote from following review:

While CPU speed remains the same as the Cingular 8525, the processor has changed from the Samsung SC32442A to the Qualcomm MSM 7200 (the recently released Sprint Mogul by HTC uses a Qualcomm MSM 7500). The MSM 7200 is a dual core CPU with a 400MHz ARM11 application processing core and a 274MHz ARM9 that handles communications processing. In addition it has a DSP and 3D acceleration and video encoder/decoders. So this is a very capable processor package that offers improved speed over the Samsung. By Windows Mobile standards, the Tilt is a responsive device that opens applications and windows quickly and handles video playback well

Further quote:

Video playback performance using Media Player Mobile is solid, and the Qualcomm processor and chipset impressed us.

here is link to review:

http://www.mobiletechreview.com/phones/ATT-Tilt.htm

one thing i am unclear on is if reviewer actually tested video or is basing performance on the fact device uses the qualcomm msm 7xxxx chipset as reviewers states "the Qualcomm processor and chipset impressed us" ; either way it appears to me that reviewer was actually impressed with the chipset. This further illustrates how htc confused the market by advertising a chipset while neglecting to mention that only part of it would be used.

I also wonder as others have, did htc send more than one version of phone out for reviewers????
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Tenny:
I'm not sure if this has been posted, but this is like a 3D Graphic Presentation by Qualcomm, and shows a lot about the different graphics 'cards' that are on the different MSM chip sets:

http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Digitaltigre:
Chainfire,

I just noticed a few typos in your most recent update to the site...

You probably meant "make it a well written review"

Keep up the good work my friend. Even if I don't post very often I want you to know that I support you and this effort 100% and I'm always keeping up. Also, if there is anything you need from me just ask. I'm the one that did that graphic in case you don't remember. I can do much more, just let me know. Also do you want typos or errors reported here or emailed to the site address?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] getwilde:
Also Chainfire, I decided I better double-check my facts. Here's where I read that "~80%" number, but I was mistaken -- I should have said "almost two-thirds". ("82%" was the second number... I'll update my previous posts to correct this statistic).

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/press_release/0,1014,sid=2283&cid=173666,00.html

At any rate, this study enforces the point that I was trying to make that if you and I post *honest* reviews of the product, positive or negative, our efforts are amplified many-fold, reaching consumers who don't read technology sites, and influencing future purchasing decisions.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Interesting post: http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1868798&postcount=56
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Typos adjusted - uploading. Typos, grammatical errors, etc are welcome here or by e-mail, I read both :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] None01:
WOW, what a story!

Thats the best news that I have heard so far, and I think that we now got some light in this darkness.

So we should also have ***** slapped Qualcomm too or what? hehe...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Yep, just saw that. People need to keep in mind that decision making in a copporate setting do not always make sense. In fact it sometimes seem just the opposite. And it could be all by good intention. If this link be true, someone was probably very gung ho and optimistic about saving some money, doing a good job, and getting a promotion but maybe found themselves overwhelmed and couldn't deliver. And the push to be first to market is very real with tech companies. One place I worked (having 2 x's in their name) spent millions on business process engineering in order to improve TTM, or Time To Market. For sure, sometimes being first to market with a "good enough" implementation can win you more advantage than waiting even days to move from "good enough" to "good" or "great".

Let's jsut call this what it is and blame Apple for creating such enormous market pressure that competitors felt it necessary to push out product before it was ready. ;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] potpeye:
Ready or not as stated above. Issue still remains HTC refuses to offer a update. Releasing a product 90% ready to beat the market fine but still a obligation for HTC to deliver 100% of what the device suppose to do.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] fb.knight:
cant leave the iphone out of anything anymore can we :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Sadly.

I wish I could mate the iPhone and the Kaiser. Think if I threw them in a drawer together overnight? ... nah
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hoot:
just described my experience with HTC support

not to duplicate posts - I've placed my case, HTC correspondence and my conclusions here:

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1869559&postcount=60

maybe it will help somehow

--

hoot
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] meeek:
Good post, keep it up!

:)

I wish I could write that well.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
HTC press room reaction on class-action risk.(22/01/2008)

http://www.htc.com/press_room/03-press-4-2008-0122.htm

(this does not confirms that they do not intend to solve the current driver issue neither)

The WM 6.1 release is still foreseen for Feb and there is reason to believe that the fix will be embedded.

If WM6.1 would be delayed for HTC only, it would even put more value on an integrated fix maybe?

(Do notice that next week, HTC Taiwan is down For Chinese new Year , so no news expected untill mid of Feb.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Damn. . . I thought we had something. Well we need to do something. I know that we are making reviews that show that there is a driver issue, but we need to get to the media, like CNN or fox. You know? Also we need a representative for all of us, one that has the knowledge and the know hot on how to do this. Who would that be? If the media thing doesn't budge them then sue sue sue, what other option would we have if that didn't work??
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Digitaltigre:
Customer Satisfaction Survey

Think it would do any good if everyone filled in an HTC survey? Maybe our dissatisfaction will reach into another deep dark part of HTC and help our cause be acknowledged.

http://www.asia.htc.com/campaign/Survey/2007/index.html
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Says expired. :confused::confused: Well, that wouldn't help because we don't get any feedback out of it so it only helps them and not us. Anyways we need a coordination now or else we will loose in the long run. So people please we need to contact major stations and have wave after wave of letters talking about the faults in our kaisers' systems and the driver issue and HTC's stance on it and on how we are gonna sue if they don't give us progress of how they are doing if they are fixing it or if they are not fix all the issues. Who is gonna lead us when the lawsuit happens? Who is gonna be the one who is gonna sue in the first place?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Infornography:
I just wanna chime in here guys.

I don't have a TILT anymore, sold both of mine. But I have to say this:

The issue still needs more attention and recognition. The people that I have spoken to that have tilt or a kaiser are still skeptical regarding the issue. I know howardforums is a slum, but there are still many "enthusiasts" that visit there. And many people there still don't see or understand the issue. Many people still believe this is only a problem for "video gaming" and "watching video". HTC also believes they aren't to blame and from their press releases, relatively guilt-free on the whole matter. ( yaay for higher profits! ).

Fight the good fight guys.

Cheers.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] rush242:
It's expired. It will let you fill out the answers, but not submit them, so don't waste your time.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
HoFo isn't a slum. . . its misunderstood. We just need to clarify on a grand scale, like say a lawsuit.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] swatspyder:
I dont know if it is just me

But my phone, since today, has been running and loading EVERYTHING faster than usual.... It is a Sprint Touch... I didn't change a single thing on my phone except do a Sync with my desktop and soft reset. I noticed this morning that it was running a lot faster.

It might just be me, but could they do a silent OTA upload to the phone or possibly through the desktop during a Sync? Just throwing it out there.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] swatspyder:
I just confirmed this myself, the fact that it is running a **** load faster... I have my side button configured for rotating the screen so while i am running opera, i can change the entire view.

about 2 seconds faster!!!!!!

And Opera Mobile loads about 4-5 seconds faster than it used to!

All of this after not changing a single thing on my phone.

Can anyone else please confirm this???
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Boinng:
No, in a nutshell! Not possible, and not very likely either. You probably just had a misbehaving app that was slowing the whole thing down, which got cleared up by the soft reset.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] swatspyder:
Sprint TV running with no lag what so ever?... come on, someone else tell me they dont get any lag on sprint tv while watching streaming video. I swear this thing is running full 30FPS. This thing did not run like this before. If I had a video camera i'd post it up.

You guys will think I am nuts until someone else on Sprint can confirm this or if a video of it can prove otherwise. I need desperately to find someone else on my college campus with another sprint touch to compare...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Boinng:
Question: how can an update take place over an activesync connection without at least notifying the user?

Answer: it can't. Plain and simple. You would have to have downloaded the hotfix yourself and chosen to install it, there's no mechanism in Activesync to download and install HTC or Sprint updates by itself.

An OTA update? Again with no user intervention involved? Also massively unlikely.