yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
@TommyCP

I think you make and excellent point that each symptom should be examined to see if it pertains to the underlying driver ommission, but I am not sure how anyone could go about doing this effectively as there are SO many variables. different hardware, chipsets, OS version, configuration, addressable memory, etc, etc ,etc.

As a general baseline, the most relevant and tangible comparison is to do a side by side with past products on a basic configuration as shipped from a common carrier. Will there be ways to improve each device, absolutely, but if these settings are obscure and out of the norm for a typical consumer to perform, or out of the norm for a consumer to perform with the assistance of a customer support call, then from a customer "class" standpoint (in this case the customer class being the average PPC user) the comparison should be germain.

This makes sense to me, but I think figuring out what constitutes unequivical proof is where legal counsel would be most useful. Also bear in mind that the recommendations may actually differ by country.

But once the comparison is made, I think you are right that there will need to be some burdon of proof the difference is in someway due to the drivers being ommitted. Unfortunately, I think the best way to do this would be to actually have a unit with the drivers to use in the baseline comparison which leads to a chicken or the egg scenario (or maybe the LG KS20 is "close enough" to stand in).

If (or maybe I should say WHEN ) this does come up, I think it is where donations to the cause may be most useful. I know some people have said it should be free (again speaking for the US) but if we can help fund some of the research, I think the incentive would be higher for someone to take it on.

After all that has been said, I am still willing to donate towards this cause because I think there has been enogh wrong done that some action is warranted. If if it winds up being a loss, hopefully it will serve as a lesson to tech companies that they need to be more forthright in how they portray product capabilities.

It may an extreme example, but look at what has happened with the current sub prime mortgage crisis. Sure, it was wrong for people to assume the market would always go up, but I think the effects of this market turn were poorly understood by the consumer, and the brokers did as little as possible to make them aware of the repercussions.

The US may get a bad rap for being law suit happy, but at least it sets some balances in the system so big corporations do not come to rule our country. Make no mistake, they already have undue influence on our political process and the will earn even more if we don't continue to fight back.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Yes, this has been suggested but I don't think it has been persued aggressively. I agree they may also put some pressure on HTC, but in terms of their total market share we proboably won't have much impact. I think naming them in as a codefendant on a class action might get someone to take notice though.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tranaee:
I close my eyes and I can imagine the hell's been taking place in HTC's HQs as we speak..

The phone has gained an awfull lot of bad publicity. If the situation doesn't change, in a week or two, "missing drivers" will be TytnII's middle name and HTC doesn't want that to happen..

On the other hand the press release was lawyer prompted to the HTC chiefs for the shake of an alibi.. They could never admit the missing drivers of a device already sold to thousands worldwide, that way would welcome a 100% lost lawsuit..
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Digitaltigre:
@TommyCP

I'm glad you are thinking this thing out, but I'm not sure that's the correct path you're taking. This thing will legally have to do with proving HTC was misleading (implying the devices would use the capabilities of the chip inside) and not a pile of problems we need to prove are a result of a lack of drivers. You are correct though, I believe if that was the case - if we did have to prove problems were directly resultant of missing drivers we'd probably all take a ride on the failboat.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Digitaltigre:
Fact: HTC touted their use and the capabilities of the Qualcomm chips

Fact: HTC listed the chips in the spec sheets of the devices in question

Fact: HTC knowingly sold said devices w/out drivers necessary to use the chips abilities

Fact: HTC made no disclaimer about limited capability

I believe, given the implied inclusion of the chips abilities, it was a reasonable assumption that these devices would have hardware acceleration.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
Yawn, yes, it is false advertising, bait and switch, plain and simple.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
You are quite right, which is also one of the reasons I wanted to rewrite the entire thing. Less technical detail, more focus on what it doesn't do, instead of why it doesn't do it. That is direction the suit will take as well (likely).

Yes, there's probably a lot of room for optimization in the software. However, a lot of the software used on the phone is not necessarily from HTC but third parties, and these do the optimizing. Like Microsoft, for example. Other things you are unhappy out performance wise (like Windows Media Player), can be replaced by 3rd party software (CorePlayer ftw). The only thing we need HTC for is hardware and driver support.

There's a LOT of untapped features in the MSM7200 that are not being used but probably could be. Drivers are the key, and we're only asking for a relatively small portion of these features.

He offered a perfectly good explenation in that post - his conclusion is just flawed. He decoded the current driver and saw it places the screen content directly in the hardware buffer of the display and uses no 'special' hardware to do this. The only valid/logical conclusion you can get out of this is that the hardware acceleration is not used, which we already knew. It says absolutely nothing about it being present or not.

HTC taking flawed cheaper chips in batch for this doesn't make sense either. They could have just taken the MSM7x25 variants of these chips that do not have these display functionalities - and are thus likely cheaper. If you look at the pictures of the insides of these devices (FCC and similar have pictures online) the chip clearly says 7x00, not 7x25. What you say is not impossible, but also not very likely, IMHO.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] GSLEON3:
Related??? Coincidence??? You Be the Judge....

According to a report on Digitimes dated 1/29/2008 the

"FORMER"

#1 Smartphone manufacturer in the world has lost massive amounts of market share, slipping to the #3 position. HTC formerly had a 50% market share of smart devices which has fallen to below 30% currently, trailing behind Motorola and Samsung. This according to industry analysts may only be the start of HTC's fast & furious decline. Particularly since HTC's recent products have been sharply criticized & coupled with the companies unwillingness to make good on their claims. The Digitimes report does not take into consideration touch screen devices, however, with LG Electronics, Hewlett-Packard (HP), Palm, Asustek, E-Ten and Gigabyte all developing new touch screen technologies & devices it looks like HTC is soon to be the King of Nothing. Unless HTC can recover from recent disappointments & set itself apart from these up & coming manufacturers by listening & appropriately responding to the life blood of there company (Us enthusiasts), this may well be the beginning of the end for the dethroned king of yesteryear HTC. Newcomers to the Smartphone realm may soon find themselves say "HTC who?".

For the Digitimes article see: http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20080129PD208.html

The Digitimes article has also already made its way to Gizmodo.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Oh geez, share price drop and already "HTC who?". Motorola lost like 16% recently and nobody's saying "Motorola who?". Qualcomm issue might have touched it a little, but overall world's market problems are to blame for the most part.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] GSLEON3:
Hey guy, this isn't about share prices of stock. It's MARKET SHARE. It means that HTC is selling less than their competitors. It's not caused because of the volitale state of the economy like stock prices. It's caused by consumers choosing to take there business elsewhere. You should read & understand things before you comment.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Lets jusr sue make a big scene about it get all the drivers needed/fixes and then move on. I don't like this long of a cat and mouse game, I dont want to wait long for a fix, because by then there might be a better phone. . .(Meaning it has better specs and running faster because of 3D Acceleration).:mad:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Yeah, I see now. There was a post a day ago or so about a drop in HTC's stock prices, so I drew the line to this post.

Anyway.. I still doubt that we had public awareness of the issue to cause such a significant effect.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cp_kirkley:
Honestly, what I would like to see is if any of HTC's stockholders have any of these devices, and are suffering from these issues to the point that it could start spreading around that circle as well. We know they have HEARD about our issues, but it would be great if someone that more directly affects the direction of the company's assets had a chance first hand to bring the issues to bear in one the monthly conference calls.

Unfortunately, HTC's stock only trades in Taiwan, and as of the previous closing it had raised 18 points.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] 4Site:
Damn I wanted 1000th post in this historic thread :p
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Nick Collision:
OT

Would that make you a kiloposter? :rolleyes:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
I know that we have tried to figure something out our selves, but what are we gonna do next. I know that we have written bad reviews and such, but what? I feel as if we are just running into a dead end unless we get a bulldozer to knock down the wall and then we can get somewhere. What should we do? I think we should start compiling up all the info, hard evidence of all their actions and if we need to sue we have the info ready and prepaird, and when we go to the media we have everything and not just "slow video" to go on.:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Actually this is yet another over simplification that the HTC bashers are using to "prove" their point.

1) HTC were completely unknown ten years ago

2) WM devices were also completely unknown

3) HTC committed resources etc to making WM devices and delivered.

4) In the last few years a lot of the bigger brands have noticed that WM devices are selling and have developed their own.

5) As a result HTC have some branded competition.

6) HTC still sell more WM devices than anyone else.

Both posts about this news story have been dangerously selective. HTC still have over 50% of market share in touch screen WM devices.

If you guys are ever going to have a hope in hell of suing anyone, you need to stop talking bull.

If I was HTC, I would start thinking about moving out of the WM market anyway. The consumer base seems to comprise a really large number of people who don't actually have any understanding of reality.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Have you seen Leno, or whomever else, walk around the streets and ask people simple questions like "what was the US War of Independence about", or "what's Thanksgiving about", or anything a citizen should know?

You could swear the world is populated by stupid people with the power to vote. So taking that as the normal, it's just the masses for ya.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
At least the majority of people don't walk around using incorrect and incomplete information in an attempt to destroy a company's reputation and brand value.

I fear that the cause is being severely damaged by hot-heads/flamers/illogical and false arguments.

The only sense I have seen on these threads is the suggestion that someone collate the specific issues and do research on the affected devices. I think that will help a lot more than the suggestions that HTC's senior management are all in a secret hideaway above a starbucks in taiwan and are about to ask for one billion dollars...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DANEMAN:
remeber htc are wrong not on all counts ,but on most,a rolling stone gathers no moss ,they will in time feel the pain of this forum by ignoring there flaws.even if it,s only there reputation.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
If they are wrong on all counts then why have so many forum members bought their products?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] omikr0n:
Because HTC used to make high-quality PDAs and smartphones. This is, however, not the case with their latest (Qualcomm) generation.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DANEMAN:
please read "not all" but most counts and the important part missed again ,we the people at this forum do not want htc,s head, but resolution to there f,,,up.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DANEMAN:
please forgive this but it looks like htc are getting there way here we are bickering with each other ,,stop,, focus on getting this fixed,for info i have 3 htc device,s uni/wizard/charmer and they are all better at scrolling.than my new super fast lol kaiser.NOT...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
Dude,

I am sure you have read the research we have done and the reasoning of this move/campaign in http://www.htcclassaction.org/

Those are not made from thin air ...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ~~Tito~~:
Man, I wa gonna give you an answer to the stone thing, but I forgot what the mythbusters said about that. . .

We just need to take action now or else we wont get any fix.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
OK, let me throw this out there. I think what we need is a plan. Everyone is saying we need to move forward but no one but Chainfire, who I am sure is already overwhelmed, has come forward to take a lead. Maybe we need someone to work for us. I am thinking a law student would be the perfect person. What beter way to get some hands on experience. I think mainly we just need someone to do some coordination and legwork until we can get representaition on board, then they could help gather facts and assist in collecting facts and documntation on the issue(s).

So is anyone here a college student? If so, could you seek out a law professer and propose the idea of making this something of a school project with cost reimbursement, possibly a little extra to cover their time, and some great experience in taking part first hand in an international class action. At least see if the idea would be of interest to someone who could keep the ball rolling and provide regular status and communication?

Can anyone here take on the task to put out some feelers?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tsadek:
Perhaps people could nominate themselves and chainfire could pick some lieutenants (maybe one per country) to help co-ordinate things??
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ceevee369:
Told him already that he has a soldier here in the beating heart of Taiwan (very near HTC's HQ) :D

Seriously, Chainfire receives all information from people who know what to filter , or what can be used.

Diversity will lead to clusters of people not pulling the same rope.

Let's wait and watch what happens on the classaction site.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] TommyCP:
Good point, I agree that it is safe to assume that the Imageon part is present in HTC's devices then.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Yes I have read the site.

My comment was about the irresponsible, ignorant posters on here who have decided that HTC are criminals, sending special fast devices out to reviewers, deliberately slowing devices so they can sell us new ones next year, cutting off bad reviewers, withholding advertising revenue from sites that allow negative reviews etc.

If everyone could put it in perspective, namely that a number of Kaiser users are discontent with their devices. They claim false advertising and are disappointed with HTC's response.

1) Their contracts are with the person who sold them the handsets - ie the network or retailer and not with HTC. If you buy a BMW and you aren't happy with it, you do not threaten the factory - you contact the dealer and discuss the issue.

2) Inventing malicious rumours about a company is not the way to get them to respect you.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Someone needs to get off their insulting, flame baiting high horses until they know what they're talking about. Class action initiatives and lawsuits involving products always include manufacturers. Besides, why would anyone care if HTC's feelings are getting hurt?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Zman28SS:
@jgermuga

As far as action goes, I think this is where we are atm.

And on htcclassaction.org it states.

"Update January 29, 2008: A point man for handling the US lawsuit has been selected. More information coming soon."

I shudder when thinking about the sheer number of emails Chainfire is dealing with right now. I know I'm putting a couple bucks in when the legal ball starts picking up speed.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
Like ive said before, save your money because 99.99% of the time no money is needed from the client for a class action. Feel free to make a donation to chainfire though for all his hard work on this issue.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Please don't insult me by suggesting that I don't know what I am talking about.

1) You will lose a class action automatically if you have not shown that you have attempted all usual remedial routes open to you. In Europe and the US, 1000's of law suits have been thrown out if the plaintiff failed to show that he had used the usual consumer routes to satisfaction and that those routes failed to deliver satisfactory remedies.

2) As I posted before, I am one of those people who prefers to work with a supplier - rather than against them. Orchestrating a negative PR campaign about a company and its products is not the way to build the relationship.

But hey - I obviously don't know what I am talking about - so lets wait til someone actually gets a paid-for legal opinion - instead of loads of amateurs or no win no fee houses...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] PhilipL:
Hi

For many people the retailer will not be interested and will just refer back to the manufacturer and to make a claim under the manufacturers warranty. However HTC will not honour their warranty as they tell us the product isn’t broken as it was never going to have driver support for the hardware acceleration part of the Qualcomm chip and so is operating as designed.

Yes in the UK and other places there are laws that give more rights to claim against the retailer, and perhaps through a small claims court we could get our money back or part off, but that means each individual would have to pursue their own claim.

However this isn't the odd bad batch of phones or the odd faulty one, it's everyone's phone that isn't performing as it should. The simple fact is HTC has allowed and encouraged us all to believe the devices in question would have features that they then haven't supplied. If that weren’t the case, then this thread wouldn't exist.

The majority of us don't want our money back, those that do can if they wish pursue a claim against the retailer, but we would like the devices to work as per our expectations, expectations given to us by HTC. It's about not being made mugs off, by standing together and giving a very clear message that companies can't get away with misleading press releases, misleading advertising and viral marketing campaigns talking up the products capabilities and then not deliver on them. HTC have used the Internet to whip up our expectations and so create a real buzz about their new devices, a very cost effective way of marketing that they have benefited greatly from. The Internet doesn’t just benefit large faceless corporations though, and us consumers can use it our advantage as well, which we are doing.

Do you really think HTC are interested in a relationship with a customer? They have not made any announcement to their customer's, only to their shareholders. Their support departments only started admitting to a problem when the HTC class action website went up and publicity about the issue followed. As an individual dealing with HTC (or any company for that matter), no one stood a chance of getting past first line support, that is the whole problem, this way they can't ignore us.

Regards

Phil
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] unwired4:
Very well put.

But whoever ends up running with this will need to show that a) the retailers/networks refused remedy and b) that the lawsuit is not malicious or frivolous (which some of the more unfortunate posts on here suggest).
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Why don't you practice what you preach? Reasonable basis for a class action against product manufacturers is not inclusive of participants having exhausted retailer remedies. Again, what's up with your name branding people in this thread?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] cp_kirkley:
I disagree. Yes the problem must be first taken up with the party you bought the product from. However the vendor will still be taking the issue to the initial manufacturer, would they not? To use your analogy, what you are talking about would work with BMW making the car, shipping it (in fully working order), and Joe Blowhard the mechanic putting sugar in the tank before you drove it off the lot. That is a bonified issue you would contact the localized vendor for, they are responsible for repairing your car.

Keeping with the analogy, we are contending, or at least attempting to, contend that BMW had full knowledge of the car's potential, and advertised at such. Droves lined up to buy this new model, based on "killer" test drives and articles written by reputable sources within the media industry, not to mention performance specifications that were proudly posted by the company itself, on its own webpage.

However instead of delivering what was advertised, in full, BMW sold you the shell of a M5, with the engine and interior appointments of an m5, but with the tranny, clutch, and driveshaft of a used 3 series from the e39 platform (lol, REALLY OLD...). And still charged you full MSRP for product that is clearly short of the bar. And to throw salt in the wound, when the issue is discovered, BMW does not issue a recall in order to correct the issue, instead they start dodging your phone calls, and telling you that the your car, while not what it should be, is serviceable enough to drive and that they have no responsibility to what happens when the bosses aren't looking.

In all honestly, AT&T doesnt have too much to do with this, AFAIC, given what we know now, the WM6 rom we recieved from them was about as good as it could be at that time, and they have at least kept up an update schedule (slow, but who cares at XDA anyway, lol).

This is an attempt to cut the proverbial middle man (AT&T) out of the loop, and bring the problem directly to the doorstep of the only place can truly reslove the problem. Do you expect AT&T to be more familiar with this product than the company that built it? IMO it is the only viable solution.

While I share in your aggravation at less rational ideas and opinions going on here, I agree with the base point that something needs to be done, and HTC is the only company that can do it.