yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] PhilipL:
Hi

There is certainly some cover up going on as it's funny that all links on the Qualcomm website that should take you to PDF's or information about the 7200 chip just now takes you back to the homepage!

Regards

Phil
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
U.S. Patent No. 6,847,686, which relates generally to a chip architecture for performing video processing. As technology continues to converge into cellular phones and other mobile devices, consumers expect higher levels of video performance. The jury found that Qualcomm has used Broadcom's patented architecture for providing this increased video performance in its "Enhanced Multimedia" and "Convergence" chip platforms.

This was one of the Broadcom's patents that Qualcomm infringed. It is possible that HTC cannot go back to Qualcomm for driver support or to get the necessary software to fix the driver issue because of the litigation. Did anyone bother to think about that? I can tell you HTC can't be happy, if HTC could simply post a driver, they would have done it by now.

Patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6847686.pdf

Injunction: http://www.broadcom.com/docs/press/12-31-07_Permanent_Injunction_Order.pdf
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mrmega:
HTC by design or by accident distorts our position and then can seem to be justified taking the stance they have. In the process HTC has managed to sway some public perceptions to their view.

This is a very powerful tactic on their part... you see the evidence in some of the misrepresented press & the user comments that follow that attack us (because of the misinformation).

Think about it. HTC has only said they wouldn't fix what they perceive the problem to be and haven't even admitted what our position really is!

HTC knows they cant win the real war, so they don't even fight it. So what they do is create a war they can win that doesn't even represent the facts!

Basically HTC is selling to the public that our position is that we want our phone/ppc to be an advanced video game/high res video player when the reality is that all we want is reasonable performance.

We need to combat the misinformation.

We need to make the public, media and HTC see and also make HTC stop misrepresenting our position and make the pubic and press that have been misinformed see that our position is about the true performance issues and not allow HTC distort our position like they are.

Whether we like it or not, if HTC sells that our position is about gaming and high res video we could very well potentially loose the battles of public opinion, media opinion and legal opinion.

HTC cannot attack the facts so they fight the battle of perception and propaganda.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
That only applies to the US. If we didn't have drivers only on the Tilt, that'd be one thing. There are other countries in the world besides America though, and that injunction shouldn't affect HTC's global decision to **** its customers up the ass.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radek Hulán:
This is Qualcomm msm-7200 chart:

http://myego.cz/img/htc-kaiser/qualcomm-msm-7200.png

HTC is no way liable for not including *all* of its possible connections and functions. Can you sue HTC e.g. for not including video-out? Hardly... Yet Qualcomm chipset can do it.

Anyway, I posted in "Happy users" thread, will not repost it here:

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1848934&postcount=21
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Yeah and how is it not collusion when Qualcomm, a minority stake holder in HTC, boasted these specs at the time I purchased my Titan and it has such poor performance drawing and scrolling mere program icons to the screen?

EDIT: Btw, that's a Google cache of Qualcomm's MSM7500 PDF because it seems to have disappeared from their site.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Here's their official response:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tyeo098:
OOOOOOO

Found youtube video that needs to be added to teh site

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aleTAqmdYY

-Tyeo
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
Yah, i was worried about the samething -- a patent issue. What it means is that htc cannot implement the chip architecture without infringing on the patent; in essence htc is between a rock and hard place and is in a litigation risk no matter what it does.

One possible non litigation solution might be as one poster suggested; try and take the code needed from another device in the future and apply it to the tytnii.

From the litigation view point, HTC is still liable for the false advertising and delivering what i consider a defective product.

What is disapointing is that it appears to me that Htc is not free to work on or provide a solution due to license agreement (or lack of). Maybe HTC should just pay for the license fee; but will not unless threatened financially more than the costs of such licensing.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] karelb:
I dont think HTC would build drivers for hardware acceleration only to be used in review devices. I havent found a review video of the TyTN or the Touch Dual/Cruise where -for example- the scroll speed was as good as it should be. I guess most reviewers didn't notice or didn't think it was that big of a deal. They were probably more interested in the device's features.

I've sent and e-mail to a dutch show about consumer issues. I'm sure im not the first person in the Netherlands to do that, but the more e-mails they get, the more attention it will attract.

I still think it is ridiculous that one of the newest PDA-phones in the market is easily outperformed by 2 to 3 year old devices.

Where's the benefit in using a 400 MHz CPU if a 200 MHz CPU gets the job done better?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] 4Site:
Totally agreed

Please read this everyone, to me it seems the only logical step open to us

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1847975&postcount=570

We shouldnt let the media hype die down
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
Quote from following review:

While CPU speed remains the same as the Cingular 8525, the processor has changed from the Samsung SC32442A to the Qualcomm MSM 7200 (the recently released Sprint Mogul by HTC uses a Qualcomm MSM 7500). The MSM 7200 is a dual core CPU with a 400MHz ARM11 application processing core and a 274MHz ARM9 that handles communications processing. In addition it has a DSP and 3D acceleration and video encoder/decoders. So this is a very capable processor package that offers improved speed over the Samsung. By Windows Mobile standards, the Tilt is a responsive device that opens applications and windows quickly and handles video playback well

Further quote:

Video playback performance using Media Player Mobile is solid, and the Qualcomm processor and chipset impressed us. AT&T includes Cellular Video (formerly Cingular Video) for streaming media from news and entertainment sources (HBO Mobile is available for an extra $4.99/month). The Samsung BlackJack was AT&T's first Windows Mobile phone to support this service and we weren't impressed with the clunky hand-off between the portal and Media Player Mobile. For the Tilt, HTC had written their own player (licensing technology from Real since CV uses Real Player format). The handoff is smooth and streaming is good: sharp with little frame drop or loss of sync. We wish HTC had offered a full screen stretched mode so we didn't have to watch postage stamp sized video. AT&T also bundles MobiTV 2 which offers broadcast TV programming for a monthly fee. MobiTV currently serves up 99 channels, including ESPN, NBC, USA, Bravo, IGNTV, Anime channel and the Weather Channel. Quality is fairly good other than poor voice sync (and plays in a larger window than CV).

AT&T bundles a boat load of games, all of which are Java based and are demos. The try-out period is generally shorter than a level-- too short in some cases to tell if the game is worth buying. Titles include Midnight Pool, Ms. Pacman and Brain Challenge, Jewel Quest 2 and EA's Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07. The usual WinMo staples are there: Solitaire and Bubble Breaker and you can of course install your favorite 3rd party games.

end quote
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Well... when I bought my Kaiser I didn't see any asterisk saying that not all qualcomm's chipset functions were implemented. There's a reason why companies put asterisks in these cases - cause if they don't their asses get sued.

Since there was absolutely no info about not all functions being implemented, this is a clear case of misadvertising.

This is the information I went by when I bought Kaiser:

To me, case is simple. Their website still doesn't have the warning that chipset comes limited, so I'd love to see them fight it in court.

People, make snapshots of their website, since they will change it soon, I got a feeling.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] PhilipL:
Hi

I take your point, however HTC made available in the specs what connections were on the device.

If HTC had included a VGA out socket on the HTC, and this didn't work because there was no driver support, then that would clearly be wrong. They didn't include a VGA port, so I think everyone understands it wouldn't have VGA out.

However HTC did include the Qualcomm chip connected to an LCD display, physically there is nothing to indicate a big chunk of the chips functionality was going to be missing. There was no mention in the specifications that not all features of the Qualcomm chip would be included, and the devices description gives the clear impression of fast graphics and rich multimedia. HTC knew very well that if people knew hardware accelerated graphic support was missing from the device, it would not have been seen so favorably.

They have not been upfront and honest.

This might a good point however HTC had been developing these devices for a long time before this outcome. Also isn't it possible to pay Broadcom the royalties and so continue offering the functions? The case document outlines what royalties need to be paid.

Still HTC knew what they were getting into, and have continued with even newer devices knowing they could never provide what they had led their customers to believe they would get.

Also other devices are reported to be using the Qualcomm chip with accelerated graphic support.

Regards

Phil
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Yes, I have mentioned this a couple times. But it still does not excuse HTC. So they made a poor choice in suppliers and are now suffering it's effects. This is HTC's problem, not the consumer's.

I actually worked for a company that had a supplier go belly up and cost consumers nearly 70 million. It was a privately held company, so it is hard to say the exact impact on the bottom line (I'd say nearly 50% of that years profit though), but the company stepped up and covered tha tab, THEN went after the supplier. Because of this, everyone who worked there lost a year's worth fo bonus's, but I was damn proud to work for that company.

If HTC had come out with an appropriate response to this, it might be easier to forgive.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Here is a Google cache of MSM7200 from HTC part owner Qualcomm. Kaiser owners should pay attention to the "Convergence Platform" specs they provide. Where does HTC disclaim these specs in their product sheets?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radek Hulán:
That video is useless. Today screen speed redraw depends mainly on which plugins you use. And those screens are NOT the same. Put them into Programs menu or Settings screen and do it again.

// edit: watched the video again, and the first phone is actually slower, it redraws some parts about 2 seconds after initial "fast" swap. As I said, that is completely useless video for any comparisons.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] beta_boy:
All.... we have posted CorePlayer Mobile v1.1.3 (Qtv Edition). Existing users can login to their reseller account at www.mobihand.com to download the update and or new users can purchase it here: http://www.mobihand.com/product.asp?id=8905

This version does have over 1400 changes since our v1.1 release and has many of the CORE updates we were gonna release with v1.2 so PPC users get an early look into our fastest version of CorePlayer Mobile to date! I'll leave the changelog absent for now... but know that the video overlay is active for Qtv but NOT perfect. Some videos do produce artifacts... and we will continue to work on it up till 1.2 is official on 1/21/08.

I would like any feedback that users can provide us.... but its a TEMP solution till and or if HTC comes around.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] giojoe:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
Does anyone know why the Tytn II scores so well on the SPB Graphics index?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] kpilcher:
Give them a few more days to make good or let's spank'um in court!

I'm not sure why we are all up in arms and worried. The problem is clear...

We bought our Tilt's and Kaisers and such, full well knowing and expecting that the ingredients included the MSM7200 as stated on the ingredients list and the advertised features it provides.

HTC has misled it's customers including their huge service providers such as AT&T and the like with their false advertising.

I'm sure if you bought a can of corn with the promise of eating yummy corn for dinner, and all the nutritional value that corn provides, you would expect corn. If you opened the can and found peas you might be a little pissed. When you returned the can to the manufacturer he would not argue with you, but instead give you a can of corn and an apology.

The Qualcom/Broadcom thing doesn't play into this at all. It is, after all, an HTC product. If indeed the MSM7200 is neutered because of the Qualcom/Broadcom thing. HTC still chose to use the MSM7200 knowing full well that it would not meet expectations based on their hype.

Let's take HTC to court, there is no question in my mind that we would easily win the case.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] giojoe:
Can you contact a lawyer?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] donatom3:
Actually the qualcomm/broadcom thing doesn't really matter. According to the lawsuit Qualcomm is allowed to continue providing the processors on the deals it has already made. They just werne't allowed to make new deals.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] scullness:
a few questions

is it possible the pre-release versions of the kaiser that got stellar reviews had semi-working drivers that were then removed from the consumer release due to bugs/lawsuit/whatever & the rush to get it out before christmas? i.e. does anyone have access to a pre-release kaiser or ROM to look at to see if it includes drivers/better performance?

also, we need to somehow get this out to HTC's competitors (like LG for the KS20) so they can advertise how they use the MSM7200 "to its full capability" and "give consumers what they want" and "live up to expectations". more people see cell phone advertising campaigns than read engadget. besides, engadget headlines are always off the front page in a few hours or less.

lastly, does not coreplayer utilizing the qtv API they uncovered prove the presence of the Imageon-like capability within the kaiser's MSM7200?

i was going to get a Tilt but now I'm waiting to see how this mess turns out.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ?Glitch:
Ok, just got off the phone with an attorney out here in LA, CA that specializes in corperate litigation, I built a two site Windoze 2003 system for him and migrated him off Novell/Goupwise 5.x. I explained to him about this and he stated that he would be interested in it if it goes big enough and has an attorney in his building that has experience with class action cases, will be talking with him more on Monday.

?Glitch
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Good job Glitch! Keep us informed
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
I have'nt posted much in this thread but,

Awesome, :D thanks so much for taking the iniative and doing something about this like Chainfire asked. Will defintely contribute monetarily to any lawsuit fund needed if it goes that far.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] giojoe:
2 thumbs up !!!!

We need more people starting to contact laywers over there in the US
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] smads:
;) Yep, the same - but interestingly while using Opera Mini the display is fluid whilst scrolling, unlike the mess that is PIE. The opera page will include graphics and text.

Makes me wonder whether it's not all down to the core of Windows Mobile. :(
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Infuruno:
possible platform?

on the HTC Tytn II flyer on their website like to flyer :- http://www.europe.htc.com/z/pdf/products/DLflyer170807.pdf or if u don't trust me u can get it off the htc tytn II page on europe website at least, on value added applications it says :- 'Picture Enhancement for Pictures

and

Videos

' .

another point is advance touchscreen technology but if when u touch it, it slows down apps the is it so advanced?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Several things:

- nobody commented on my KISSing the site

- Opera Mobile indeed does not use the normal Windows drawing system, AFAIK.

- Testing CorePlayer /w QTV here...

Top.Gear.s10e08.ws.pdtv.xvid-angelic.avi

700 MB TV rip

624x352, 25 fps, 60m

1.6 mbit - 112 kbit audio = 1.5 mbit

Verdict: Completely watchable, not perfect, no tearing or other weird stuff observed

24.s06e10.htdv.xvid-xor.avi

350 MB TV rip

608x336, 23,976 fps, 42m

1.15 mbit - 128 kbit audio = 1 mbit

Verdict: Bloody perfect

A friend of mine here is generating a whole batch of different bitrates and resolutions to get some more useful results.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Chainfire, your dedication goes beyond any gratitude any of us can possibly express. There are parade watchers and parade organizers, but you are without a doubt a true leader! Let's hope people put their money where their forum comments are when time comes for action.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
I think you definitely should simplify it and make it focus on the different task we have now. I think the whole thing is leaning towards "forcing" HTC into compliance, or at least exploring what lawsuit can do.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
Will someone in New York State contact the office of Andrew Cuomo?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
Chainfire can you do a rawframebuffer vs qtv comparison?

Thanks
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
I agree with the kissing of the site; unsure of best way to do this as there should be some legal assistance given in this area. While i have been involved in some legal cases, my background is more layman and i am not a lawyer.

One suggestion (in addition simplifying technical) might be to provide more on the false advertising of htc. For example, it clear that HTC falsely advertises the device uses the qualcomm chipset. Clearly, htc promoted the qualcomm chipset so as to deceive customers (as well as reviewers) into believing that the device would perform very well while remaining silent on the fact that only part of the qualcom chipset would be used. To simplify, this is commonly known as a "bait and switch" in order to decieve customers into believing they are getting one thing while they are actually getting another. The term "bait and switch" is a term you might want to consider adding to your website and that news media is more likely to grab a hold of though i am unsure of the exact language you want to use.

Another suggestion might be to use HTC own comments/press release against them. An example would be that HTC stated:

"HTC does not offer dedicated or optimized multimedia devices and can confirm that its Qualcomm MSM7xxx-based devices do not use ATI's Imageon video acceleration hardware."

Thus you may want to provide a statement on website that informs all people that htc does not offer any "dedicated or optimized" media devices and that any of there device that use the Qualcomm msm7xxx should not be considered for purchase if one is also thinking of using it for media use.

I dont know if any of the above makes sense or not; just trying to help give you some ideas to maul over --- hope people make further and better suggestion than i have here as i am sure there might be some better input out there than i have given here; but figure all input helps.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Not right now, no. I have ran some tests on it though, and QTV is about 10 - 30% faster depending on the video in question (CorePlayer's MPEG-4 support was already top of the line). Also far my tests have shown that it's definitely a scaling problem. The bitrate can go through the roof at a width of 480 while keeping perfect playback, but half the bitrate at a width 640 plays much worse (note that that problem would pretty much take a hike with HWA display drivers, as they usually provide pretty damned fast scaling). That's all just for funsies though, and completely beside point.

What is the almighty point? The point is that CoreCodec figured out a way to use QTV, which is a highly optimized MPEG-4 decoder, and is

Qualcomm

technology... this

should

have been built in whatever HTC ships as media player.

EDIT: I read "do you have" instead of the "can you do" you wrote. Yes I can do. And I will do, later. First priority is KISSing the site.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Nice catch!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jlebeane:
I absolutely think if you want to sue HTC over this then you and everyone else has the right. I also think if they are using inferior parts (as all electronic companies due) then they as well as everyone else should be responsible for that. But everyone needs to realize that nothing is going to come of this anytime soon. There not going to refund your tilts, there not going to say send them to us and will replace them. What they will do and most probably will come of this is HTC will promise to make better products in the future. I knew full well when i wrote my first post i would catch heat for it. But thats the way it will happen. Most not everyone but most seem to have this idea that there going to get something out of this. And you will be lucky if you ever hear of anything coming of this let alone getting anything out of it. Stuff like this sits in litigation for years. And most of us will forget all about this before anything ever comes of this.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gtblaze:
Email Addresses here u go!

Mark_Baker@htc.com

David_Kou@htc.com

Waiman_Lam@htc.com

Hsiao_Lim@htc.com

Jason_Mackenzie@htc.com

David_Smith@htc.com

Chris_Stovall@htc.com

Wyatt_Whaley@htc.com

Peter_Chou@htc.com

Florian_Seiche@htc.com

Kevin_Chen@htc.com

Philip_Blair@htc.com

Peter_Frolund@htc.com

Frederic_Tassy@htc.com

Lars_Weisswange@htc.com

Oliver_Schulte@htc.com

Peter_Chiang@htc.com

Diane_Studman@htc.com

Daniele_Grandis@htc.com

Maybe now they will listen.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
If you had put it like that in your original post, I don't think anybody would have bashed you like you did. Disagree, probably (and state that), but a completely different type of response than you got now.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Blowfish64:
Hey Chainfire,

I think you really need to send out another press release against HTC's. The public needs to have this myth HTC is propagating dispelled that we're only wanting video playback and 3D gaming "luxuries". Since HTC's announcement, it's clear from things like the Engadget poll that people don't understand what this is really all about.