yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
ripping from future HTC devices won't do as these future devices won't use the same chipsets (nor the same Imageon versions)

reverse engeneering is quite difficult, for a long time ATi had no linux drivers and the only options were closed source drivers that you could buy from a third party (besides from being a bit expensive they were pretty worthless too)

the only chance of doing it ourselves as I can see it is either if

1. we raise A LOT more money and pay some driver development firm to do it for us

the result will almost certainly be nowhere near as good as the AMD driver and we would probably have to concentrate on one or two drivers (ie the full suite of GAPI, GDI, D3DM, OGLES and so forth would not be very reasonable to expect this way)

or

2. we manage to take drivers from another product using the MSM7200 chipset

I'd say option number 2 is the only viable option.

So far chainfire has put in 100 hours in to this kind of work and from what I could tell he didn't even get close.

Surely a more seasoned programmer with driver development skills, preferebly for WinCE, could probably pull it off. Problem is: we have to find that person.

(Since this is a lot easier than developing from the ground up we could probably convince someone to do it for the 4k we have right now. Problem is to find that person and to actually make people stand by their pledges)

:)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
I think having those two large letter sentences in the same press release pretty much makes a perfect case of false advertising. (By implying that a product supports something it does not.)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
corrected the BIG ones, lol.. was a lil big.. thx:)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
I thought that too, but it just says that they use the chip. Not really saying they implement every aspect of it. That's where all this **** comes in to play
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Forgive me, but I really don't see where they are stating that Qualcomm's chipset will be supplied with all features available on HTC devices. So what? Many times companies develop components that can do many, many things, and then they limit them (usually through firmware) to only do certain things. It's cheaper to produce one version of a component than many for different price ranges. Fingerprint scanners would be a good example of that practice.

I mean I'm all for lawsuit with false advertising. I just think we should carefully choose which statements we make our stand on.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
i also want to vote for the bt issue and the speaker issue. I am unsure if the above commenter is saying that the speakerphone issue should not be included because it relates to defective "hardware design" and is something for the "next generation" phone. The tytnii is the next generation phone and it does not even have a core function of being able to use the speakerphone. Even the cheapest cell phone i had (and even before bt) had a good speaker phone. Personnally, i think one could sue just on the fact that the tytnii speaker phone is defective as it is advertised as having such. It would also be interesting what the news media would think about that in addition to all the video problem, the tytnii (which is a $700 phone) does not even have decent speakerphone or bt capabilities.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
HTC should have said that the video hardware acceleration hardware is not enabled. I settled on the Tilt because of the MSM7200 and its features. They knew the hype about the MSM7200 would boost sales so they kept quiet.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Whatever the case, we have good news and bad news.

Bad news = they won't release drivers for GDI/etc.

Good news = our phones are fully capable (hardware wise) to do it all.

I guess now it all comes down to what do we do in a situation like this. We really need some driver specialists to take a really close look at all this with all the new info.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
A driver specialist can't do anything, unless they have Qualcomm/ATI sdk/source etc.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
That, my friend is illegal in the US. I really wish I knew a personal lawyer;)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
thats correct, so unless we get a service provider (AT&T, Sprint, T-Mo) to splurge on an upgrade for any one of the affected phones, we're royally ****ed...**** I would switch over to T-Mo in the US right now if they provided an update that would fix this, and I love my 3G data, too
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
Yo Bronx31,

If your nick indicates you're from the Bronx, then bring it up with the NY attorney general. Heard they love taking on these kinda issues.

Alemaker
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
You know, I thought about that. I'm in NC till April minimum, I'll do some diggin online and try to find some info. If this was last year, when the gov now was the AG, I think we would've had a spine.:). Give me a couple of days, time to talk to Fam and some friends, and I'll get back on tis issue. The AG might be our ticket, especially if everybody in the states do it:eek:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Alemaker:
Nice-

Would do it over here in Detroit, but the state AG isn't as much of a pitbull and now Kwame Kilpatrick is getting all of their attention:eek:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
come to think of it, Cumo would probally would love something like this. He's into politics
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Bronx31:
LOl.. the text bandit:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
Yep, we covered this back about Page 30 but it got lost in the pile.

Here, pass the word along to anyone back home in NY State with one of the devices in question to contact Cuomo:

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1847464&postcount=5
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Imsaffor:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/htc-further-responds-to-video-driver-issue-will-improve-future/

New crock of **** posted on engadget. Seems they are not gonna break under the current publicity. So is this the time when possible lawsuit becomes probable lawsuit?

hmm... I'll help in any way I'm able to.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
seems that htc is not going to respond; other than with a release of other devices; but if i knew about this issue and had not purchased a tytnii yet, i would wait as it appears to me that htc has no "high end" devices that deliver media --- this is something that needs to be relayed to media-- that htc offers no high end media devices ; not that it helps our case; but it furthers the example of how bad the situation is.

I will say again that that one could win a lawsuit just on the bt and speakerphone issue as this is a serious defect (and one that was advertised by htc) and one that i think has been overlooked somewhat to this point ; for attorneys listening--- the bt and speakerphone defect could cause htc to replace all of our phones with the "next generation" phone as some have described the speaker problem as a "hardware problem" thus requiring redesign - meaning next generation phone --- i dont know best direction; just thinking out loud. .
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] vpoet:
Forgive me for prying, but what exactly is AT&T doing about this issue? They have a Cellular Video service with MediaNet and wouldn't they want to tout the use of the service by the HTC phones? Or, are they waiting for the Vu and their mobile television service to allow them to cash in?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
At and t is doing nothing and am sure has recourse to HTC should this end up in full blown lawsuit; apparently the approach is (in my opinion) for htc to provide a next generation device to at and t to elleviate the problem (as customers just exchange the htc phone with at and t for lets say a iphone).

Thus, its really up to people in the united states who bought there tytnii outright (as an unlocked phone) to be part of any suit brought, as this is where i think real damages are in the states (problem with at and t is that you have option to cancel service(and just turn the phone in) or exchange phone --- thus, harder to prove damages if you are looking from attorney perspective). Also is reason at and t does not care/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Hey, I know the stock markets are a little jittery at this time but HTC's stock has been steadily falling from last October!

May be a coincidence but it just about marries up with the release of the TyTynII??

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=2498q.L

Lets hope someone gets a kick up the inducement slot when it gets below a certain point!! :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Ok I just got off the phone with one of the managers over in AT&T HQ in Texas.

They're polite, nice and suprised about the amount of coverage and people that are concerned about thier Tilt.

Long story short, they need us to get a "legal representation" and have our lawyer call AT&T and express concerns about the device, representing the buyers of the device.

So, that's another reason to get that magical "legal representation". We'll need some signatures rolling, and not just online ones, but those verified by lawyer.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
Guys, read this.

http://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=1853147&postcount=522
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Radeon123:
Hope it's true :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gtblaze:
Peter_Chou@htc.com CEO and President of HTC

Florian_Seiche@htc.com Vice President of HTC Europe

Cher_Wang@htc.com	Chairman of HTC

HT_Cho@htc.com Board Member of HTC

Fred_Liu@htc.com	COO of HTC

Let these people know how you feel.

Let them know how this has affected your future buying decisions.

Let them know how you feel shafted.

Let them know you will not buy HTC again nor recommend it.

Cheryl_Lee@htc.com HRD Dept

Let her know that they do an excellent job of hiring dumb customer service assholes with robot answers.

Mark_Baker@htc.com Senior Director Enterprise Business Unit Americas

Let him know what a great job he has done @ promoting the Tytn II as the ultimate business device, when it can't even scroll in Internet Explorer or use the Camera to take pictures.

Maggie_Cheng@htc.com PR

Jason_Gordon@htc.com PR

Let him know what a great job he is doing with the Press releases which mislead everyone into spending hard earned money on a device that is as "fast" as a $100 smartphone.

David_Kou@htc.com Business Development CDMA

Let him know how happy you guys are with the MSM7500 chipset devices.

Waiman_Lam@htc.com Controller

Let him know what a ****ty job he is doing at "controlling" the crippled garbage HTC is pumping out in the states.

Hsiao_Lim@htc.com Director of Engineering

Let him know what an excellent job the Taiwanese engineers have done at cripling the MSM7xxx devices and offer mickey mouse BS software.

Jason_Mackenzie@htc.com VP Sales and Marketing

David_Smith@htc.com Director of Marketing

William_Huang@htc.com Product Marketing Division

Congratulate them on jipping all of us into believe the Tytn II was the greatest device ever and taking our money. Let him know that HTC is very good at using tactical wording and marketing in their press releases to con people with the hype of the MSM7xxx chipsets when HTC NEVER had any intentions to use the chipset to the capabilities that they claimed in their press releases.

Shelley_Davis@htc.com USA Sales Team

Sanjay_Chetwani@htc.com USA Sales Team

Lars_Weisswange@htc.com EU Sales Team

Thank them for ripping us off.

Benita_Tiongson@htc.com USA Service Team

Christopher_Llewellyn@htc.com EU Service team

Jocelyn_Liu@htc.com EU Service team

Thank them for their piece of **** service with BS answers.

Chris_Stovall@htc.com Executive Director National Accounts

Wyatt_Whaley@htc.com Executive Director National Accounts

Kevin_Chen@htc.com Executive Director HTC EMEA Channel

Philip_Blair@htc.com Product Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Peter_Frolund@htc.com Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Frederic_Tassy@htc.com Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Lars_Weisswange@htc.com Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Oliver_Schulte@htc.com Finance Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Peter_Chiang@htc.com Account Director HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Diane_Studman@htc.com Head of European Marketing HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Daniele_Grandis@htc.com Country Manager, Italy HTC Europe Co. Ltd.

Let these people know how you feel as well.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
My question with this is what obligation does at and t have to make this work as anyone with complaints has 30 days to exchange phones (meaning - get a different phone like the iphone or the same phone with same defects) or stop and get refund on service contract and phone. I hope your right; but if the "patent" issue relating to broadcom, qualcomm, htc, etc is true, then i wonder if at and t can even develop legally a driver for this phone......the patent issue is a major stumbling block for everyone....including htc; but with htc there is direct evidence of false advertising and damages can be proven with no trouble (at least for those that bought unlocked phones)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
AT&T will not and cannot be our target. What they can be is a company that is concerned with its customers being pissed with device they sold. They can be a company that understands that future services like that new video sharing thing will NOT WORK on devices like Tilt because the damn thing CAN'T EVEN TAKE PICTURES, leave alone streaming video.

Yeah yeah yeah, they're big, they're a corporate that doesn't give a ****.. Well, they are concerned about their market share and profits. They are concerned about Verizon selling PDAs that are getting closer and closer to theirs. They might, just might, be our strong ally.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
They will not be your ally, at and t is only concerned with the next device htc has to offer. This is reason for htc press release that only future device will have (for lack of recall) enhanced media capabilities.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
ya, not that i like AT&T, but they are the lesser of two evils (Verizon), and they do have the clout to make HTC their *****, so might as well use them. I emailed two class action lawyers, hopefully I'll hear back from them on monday.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
gtblaze, initially i thought that would be a good idea too but it really isnt. Also, people who work at HTC who contribute to this forum have indicated to me that those are not their real email addresses (just because the mail doesnt get bounced back to you doesnt mean its their email addresses). What we need is legal representation.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
I agree completely--- actually was hoping legal or attorney were listening; but dont know
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Well then AT&T will kick HTC in the butt on next negotiations over price. And HTC will suffer that way. Not that shabby either.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
We have something of that nature in the works. More will be known on Monday or Tuesday.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
I can confirm that it IS real. Here is the email I received from Peter Chou after sending an email to him. I can also confirm that the other emails are real too. Did it occur that HTC workers don't want you to email them?

"Dear Ray,

it was a good lesson learn. htc products are not meant to supporting optimize video performance for entertainment. there's a number of reasons from our suppliers. we can always do better and room for us to improve. it would probably taking too long to come out solution and to spend time with our partners and suppliers. we think future product would be make sense to plan for that. I am sorry to disappoint users. i hope they can understand our challenge.

Best Regards.

Peter"
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Especially with HTC having confirmed it all :D

I agree, carriers need to become allies.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
To me the HTC lawsuit is clear, and is for the "taking" for any attorney that wants to take it on. In someways, i wish i was an attorney as i would take this case on in heart beat as i have been involved in cases that are similar; but different. One thing i do know from experience, choose your battles and be true to what is.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
There's just one thing - they hate HTC more than they hate us. Why? Because we pay them every month, and they pay HTC every month. That's why. Besides, I've worked with huge corporating that sold us scanners at $14,000 a piece for resale. I know the distrust and mutual ... mmm.. disrespect?

That's why if we procede with lawyers we definitelly need to contact AT&T. Even if the whole thing goes haywire, at least AT&T will bite HTC's ass on next phone. Maybe they will even make sure that next device has the drivers hehe. But that's wishful thinking.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
give financial reason of why this should be negotiation issue given the fact that any customer that is not satisfield with phone can return to at and t with complete refund on service (or replacement phone which means there is no liablility) and that at and t in turns returns the defective phone (ie:tytnii) for a refund. How will this translate to at and t will kick htc in the butt on negotiation... means nothing to any of us with the tytnii
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
Unless we have some good ATT contacts, we can't really goto ATT, and unfortunately for us ATT emails aren't firstname_lastname@xxx.com like HTCs are.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
That's where you're wrong. AT&T as a big reseller decides on many devices and their prices. There's a lot of negotiation going on on how many units will be bought and at what price. Every dollar that they drop from the price - that's 1 dollar profit from every Tilt they sell.

This will translate into AT&T using this against HTC to bring their profits up and reduce HTC's profits. How will may affect us?

Best case scenario - AT&T yells at HTC and tells them to release drivers they promised NOW. Why is this probable? Because AT&T has its own techs and has it's own product specs in the P.O. If they see that the specs on the P.O. do not match the specs of the device they've got - they will be pissed, and you can bet on that.

Worst case scenario - they ignore it. So what? We don't lose anything.

Besides, there are many possible scenarios in between.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
Give me a lawyer, I'll give u AT&T HQ.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
bottom line, at and t will not help; as they are waiting for other phones and have no liability or limited liability at best based on what i know so far, --- at and t is waiting for htc to release the next generation--- does not have liability in iterim as you can return tytnii per service agreement if not satisfied, thus need to concentrate on htc, at and t is waste of time.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
No, no!

This is not about you and your phone! AT&T is a RESELLER, meaning they are a buyer themselves, and a huge one. It's about AT&T possibly losing profits because of HTC not selling them the device they promised. If not that, then they are theoretically losing customer base because of this issue. They really are our allies in this case, no doubt about that. And they do see that, they're greedy bastards, not idiots.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
from a legal standpoint and getting all of your problems fixed, i will say this,

the speaker and bt issue is probably the most significant especially in view that the speaker might be a "hardware defect". Reason being is irregardless of tytnii video problem, the fact that niether the speaker nor bt operate properly can be enough to find the phone defective, thus we are all refunded the total price of phone (if bought unlocked). Main thing is while the video is important part of false advertising; it is easy to demonsrtate a "speaker phone" or "blue tooth" component as defective.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
Listen folks...

HTC has just confirmed they shipped millions of "their most powerful" devices crippled with poor performance for the following reasons:

- Too much work (But not too much for their next devices)

- complicated licensing negotiations (hilarious)

- To avoid potential intellectual property negotiations (Why did they go ahead with these chipsets then, because they are Qualcomm's?)

- added licensing fees (Hey why not strip Windows Mobile from your devices while you're at it?)

Can someone please call Mr. Cuomo of New York now?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] DarkDvr:
That's good, I like it. This should be used by our lawyer.. if we ever get one that is.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
i want to believe this; but am only presenting things from legal perspective,
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
to clarify, i only want to say that at and t does not care and will not care nor should it care as it has several option to mitigate litigation -- the first being you can return your phone for whatever reason (you can make up) so as to get a new phone or to get out of the "contract"

Not sure what more you need to know as any attorney that would take this case would look at damage issue and see at and t as problem from damage standpoint; but there are a lot users who bought phones unlocked in the us at over $700 a pop.

.

at any rate --- at and t will be friendly --- but dont expect anything from them....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] grizzley:
And they confirmed this.... HOW????
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/htc-further-responds-to-video-driver-issue-will-improve-future/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dinfinity:
From the HTC statement:

Anybody get the feeling this is about money?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Hey guys, hopefully there will be excellent news over in the D3D driver thread but I just want to ask you people if we are sure there will be no chance of a legal kick-back here regarding unlawful use of unlicensed software or property rights.

It could damage the chance of litigation if it does not work out.

Best hope is if it does work then the corporations will admit to their failings and accept the hard effort by some here but you never know ??? :o
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
any possible solutions are welcome; its not about litigation; its about resolving our problem; however, if litigation is the only recourse, then so be it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] naam:
No Coment On this post...!!!!!!

Can someone conform this? Or at list little comments….
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] neilson:
I did it, and my Mogul feels snappier now.

Regardless of if it truly utilizes the ATi drivers, I'm keeping it on my phone.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Has any one checked out this press release?

http://www.htc.com/press_room/03-press-080108.htm

Since they didn't have to spend any time or money developing that expensive driver support, they were able to increase profit by more than 14%. In their own words...

"The revenues of 4th quarter was better than expected due to sales through momentum from new product launch in the 4th quarter."

That's roughly 330 million USD in Q4 Net profit. How much do those drivers cost anyway?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] borealcool:
I think the rabbit hole goes deep on this entire issue, very deep.