yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
Hey, maybe give chainfire some input here as this is about htc and its false advertising; this is not about money--its about our devices not working properly--- i want to help chainfire and but do not know how other than to give my comments in this forum. ---- As chainfire is gone for now, any suggestions on how to improve site htcclassaction.org--- wording--- anything--- just would like help--- not speaking for chainfire but only what i think chainfire would like input on --
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
I agree; but probably not in same way as you, how deep is the rabbit hole with the tytnii speaker phone/bt --- i wonder how deep the rabbit hole does go into the defective speaker/bt issue.....i just wonder as speaker issue appears to be design flaw that is unfixable through software; so what is alternative--- i wonder....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Doug2873:
Ray, did you mention in your letter to Peter the amount of money you forked over and how you wont be buying another HTC product?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
I have sent some revisions to chainfire already. I would like to wait for some feedback before sharing it though. Hopefully it will be a strong testament regarding false advertising and articulate the issue in laymans terms.

I don't think he issue will ever be cut and dry, but will likely depend on some interpretation of what was implied by both the timing of the press releases and the statements made, what is considered common indusrty practice and what a reasonable person would conclude based on something akin to a preponderance of evidence.

I don't think the last statement made by HTC puts them in a very good light either. They are basically crying poor when it is quite clear they made plenty of money off of the latest round of products.

They also said consumers should rely on the specs provided, which really were not supplied in sufficient detail. In order to make the proper judgement, one would need to know all the codecs supported without the hardware acceleration and the corresponding framerates, bit rates etc. As far as I have seen, these deail were presented in only one place, and that was on the Qulacomm spec sheet, with some excerpts thrown into the September press release.

Can anyone tell me how well graphics rendering is supported from this spec sheet?

http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_tytn_II.htm. But it is quite clear in other specs that it"does" play video, but how well is a big mystery. The only clue would be the very top spec in the table which is the chipset used...

So the bottom line (in my eyes anyways) remains that the information supplied did more to indicate high quality graphics was supported than to indicate it would not be supported. I think there is a strong chance a judge and/or jury would see it that way as well. All I can say is that even though I bought the new core player today, I am still disappointed in HTCs handling of this matter and will still be putting $$ up for a calls action, should it reach that point.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
plus side: this is deffiinitely lanham act issue under us law with regard to htc issue; should be a sure pickup for law firm in states.... can any law people confirm my fealing on this.....
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
appreciate your help as i was overwhelmed... but will go farthter
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] hello77:
from a litigation side,

you are still missing the speaker and bt issue though go ahead and explore all video defects --- all what i know is my phone is still defective even if video is corrected--- due to speaker also being defective.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] NuShrike:
Framing HTC's place

This issue seems to boil down to stupidity and ignorance of HTC.

Basically, they're acting like they're a "small" company with a good engineering team that's been fairly successful repackaging off-the-shelf components into a device to sell people. They get the chips, sticks Windows Mobile on it, and ship it!

It's quite likely that the MSM chips were the cheapest (bean-counter) deal at the time to get to a next-gen cpu with all the needed radio technology in one tiny package to reduce phone size and battery requirements.

However, HTC going cheap and buying Qualcomm is like humans getting their hands on UFO technology. Since HTC is NOT a software company, or only has a tiny software core, we can NEVER expect any technical prowess from them that the Qualcomm chips demand.

Pointedly, HTC is to Sony and Sonic Stage as Apple is to the iTunes and the iPod, and HTC bit off way more than they can chew. We all know how successful Sony has been taking only the supreme hardware-only path.

Of course, it's surprising that performance is inferior to previous hardware so one can only speculate that Qualcomm chips actually do suck compared to Samsung/Xscale because the QC chips were optimized for Q3Dimension, QTV, etc instead of the basic SAFE mode usage. This may have caught HTC with their pants down too.

So stay away from any HTC tech that uses Qualcomm chips because it's only a pretty brick.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ray6:
No, I pretty much said that it is well known that all these devices ( i listed them) have issues with video. I said that I wasn't going to spam him with a hundred links to different websites and petitions as he as probably seen them already. I said that I wanted to know one thing. "what is htc going to do about it?"

That was the response I received.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ach2:
Whatever happens with the drivers issue - sue/don't sue etc, the one thing which HTC don't want is for this issue to hang around forever.

We should spend some time making the HTCClassAction.org front page so that within 2 or 3 seconds of opening the page the reader knows that HTC don't support their devices or falsly advertise or imply additional features. Then for EVERY HTC new product release we should have a concerted campaign to ensure potential buyers are aware of what they are getting into.

The added bonus to this is that if HTC want the web sites closed down and the campaign to stop then THEY have to sue us - they can only do this if they think they'll win.

And let's face it, any other corporation which was faced with so much bad publicity would have shut us down a long time ago if our claims were wrong. This also implies that HTC know they can't win and are currently working on the damage limitation, divide and conquer (this ones working reading some of these posts) and war of attrition style of defence.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
Very well said, we should link HTCClassAction.org to every front page websites in the internet to bump up the search engine rank.

And yes, for every HTC new product, we should raise this campaign again.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
After I read HTC response from engadget :

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/htc-further-responds-to-video-driver-issue-will-improve-future/

I think we should kiss our requested drivers good bye :(

In simple sentence, HTC said that adding the drivers is not easy.

And all those affected phones are already out (released).

If they gonna add the drivers they should re-negotiate with all parties (qualcomm, phone networks, etc.) about the licensing, etc. etc.

HTC should has been lost $million because of this driver issues from potential buyers. However, they seems dont care or cannot factor the cost vs the cost for adding the drivers.

What a sad day.

But this experience made me re-think thousands times to purchase another phone.

I hope i-mate, E-Ten will or Toshiba and other WinMo device manufacturers to create better product than HTC.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] pjwilkin:
i-mate often re-badge HTC products, so rule them out

To be honest, HTC's fiasco with drivers has put me off their products. It's even soured me on WM.

Microsoft had better be listening as people moving away from HTC might move towards the dreaded fruit.

Currently my next phone (in 1 year) will be an apple, not a brick like HTC produced for me.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] greg3d:
HTC's own press release says it all:

http://www.htc.com/press_room/03-press-070905.htm

So why are they surprised that we expected anything less?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Malik05:
**************
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] ach2:
I can see that you thought long and hard about that response... very eloquent, just what we need :D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] anaethelion:
HP Oak is my next goal, i'll try to sell my TyTN II asap, buy a cheaper phone, and save money for upcoming HPs.

HTC is such a fool, they don't know the way they took by choosing this business plan...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
Well the press release basically says:

"TyTN II uses the MSM 7200"

and then in the next paragraph

"The MSM 7200 supports 3D, video encode/decode"

I'm fairly sure you could get them on that. It certainly is implying that these features are supported since it's in the same document.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Malik05:
That HP Oak looks like some serious business, and not too far away either, lets just hope i can hang on to the Kaiser without having the RLoD!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Gandhi70:
fine for htc, but i don't think i will buy another product from them if this is true.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] siachacz:
Hello all,

thats my first post and I apologise for my english.

I'm user of Tytn II and I'm very confused about the situation.

My own device has all of the malfunctions which was described on this forum.

I was send email about problems (lags, camera problem, graphics problem) to HTC, they replied me the official statement. But they didn't helped to solve problems!

In my opinion the device has many hidden bugs and don't works stable and we can

lodge a complaint

.

The next is that the seller (official distribution-private net shop) in my case lied me that the TyTn II uses the 3D hardware acceleration!

All mobile users need to know that the HTC company don't respect customers. Users will give HTC a free advertisment around the world hehe.

Regards
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Menneisyys:
Have you read this? http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/25/htc-further-responds-to-video-driver-issue-will-improve-future/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
Yep, soz Menneisyys, but for maybe the first time in 4 years I've known you you are two pages behind...:)

Looking at this objectively, HTC are performing a REAR-guard action.

They are trying to bolster their legal position JUST in case of any legal action but I would surmise MORE to re-assure shareholders against market losses. The whole of the stock market is in jitters...what company needs a prospective forcast of future sales losses due to consumer rejection at a time like this?? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] met3ora:
I guess with the new HTC response, they've pretty much covered themselves in terms of a class action suit.

Am I wrong in saying this?
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] donatom3:
No all that new statement is trying to do is shut up us and the media. You can't cover yourselves for a class action suit after the fact.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Farsquidge:
In a word ...Yes.. Not to put you down but LOOK at the big picture.. ANY prospective company having a consumer problem at this time in the market is LIFE or DEATH and HTC are looking at a piece of rope with a nice big knot in it...:D
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] dsyro:
I have found nothing but disappointment after disappointment with the Kaiser.

Come to think of it, it's a mirror of HTC's big ugly arrogant head. This device IS HTC. Cool looking, full of promise but in the end just a pile of ****... leaving the customer vowing not to buy anything with that logo on it ever again.

I will hope to see HTC crashing and burning in the next months. I will never buy or own an HTC device again BUT I would like to remain a member of the xda-developers community.

I suspect that there's A LOT of other disappointed HTC device owners who might feel the same way: they don't want to buy HTC ever again but they don't want to miss xda-developers in the future.

For this reason I believe that, after this outrage, the people in charge of the XDA-developers site should consider:

1) changing domain name

2) start hosting developers and users of all PPC phones/Smartphones and not just devices manufactured by that band of crooks called HTC

It would also have a significant symbolic impact if a site as well-known as xda-developers suddenly changed name/course (or at least broadened its scope). HTC should then start realising its mistake of biting the hand that feeds it.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Second video added.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] phan10m:
^ That was great. I am also going to be contributing to the funding of this project
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
As I couldn't find the other Digg story that was submitted, I created one myself and added a Digg button to the frontpage of http://www.HTCClassAction.org . Please Digg :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] RemE:
Great work on the site, I really hope that something comes of this as I'm heavily invested in my Kaiser now.

Should it not, and thinking to the future, does anyone have experience with the ETEN Glofish M800? It's a sliding qwerty with GPS, seemingly all specs of the Kaiser PLUS VGA Screen (4 times the resolution). I don't know anything about ETEN and how they support their products or how much tweaking is done on them here at XDA. I just saw a blip about the phone and haven't had any time to dig into it.

http://www.pdatoday.com/index.php/w...tc_kaiser_but_with_4_times_higher_resolution/
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
Uhhm., you mean like Vista? Sorry OT but I had too. :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] FabianNL:
Chainfire, you are doing such a great job! Really, really good, thank you!

I Slashdot/Digg the site...

And nice to see Tweakers has posted it on their frontpage :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Added a short debunk on the main page for those saying the devices were not meant to be able to do these things, and added a short "misadvertising" page. More examples for this page are welcome!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
@ Chainfire

I think you should, without being to blunt or obvious, try to weave in the names of ATi and Qualcomm on the first page.

A simple fact stating "based on the MSM7x00 chipsets which contains ATi Imageon technology".

I in no way mean that you should imply that they are responsible but it surely would be a thorn in their side if their names are mentioned here and thus (I'm mainly thinking about ATi since they have a much closer relationship to the public than Qualcomm) they could probably preassure HTC as well.

(For the record I have contacted ATi previously and amongst other things I linked htcclassaction.org)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] jgermuga:
I thought one of the Euro carrier sites had a blurb about multimedia too. Can't find it now.

And for those saying that we shouldn't be complaining I would say we are at the very least providing a public service to potential buyers. In itself, that is enough for me to support this initiative as we are hopefully helping people making better decisions about what device is right for them. So if it doesn't matter to someone, fine, no harm done. If it does matter to someone, I think they should know before they go through all the hassle of changing over their phone. Even though most carriers (and most retailers) will take the device back, it is still a hassle.

Whether or not the video performance is adequate is a tough call. Did HTC proclaim excellent video playback, no. But outside of any specific claims, people generall take a faster processor to mean better performance, especially if the processor spec itself claims to support better performance, and better performance for the specific task which is lacking.

So while it is no guarantee, if you bought a laptop or desktop computer that had a 2x faster processor and more available memory, wouldn't you expect it to be faster. Sure, your new machine can burn DVDs, has Gigabit Ethernet, Wireless N and Fast USB ports, all of which your last computer did not have, but when you find it is slower then your computer you are replacing, aren't you going to be puzzled. Wouldn't you start calling support to find out why? Maybe you would start thinking it is due to the newer OS or because the newer features are causing it to be slower...

...then you come to find out the manufacturer neglected to include drivers? You would probably want to know why the heck they didn't include them. You might even consider it a defect in the product design as you have come to expect drivers being included in the purchase of the computer.

So if you agree that drivers should be supplied with your new computer, why should we not hold our phones to the same standard? Especially when we just paid nearly as much as you would for a modest desktop/laptop.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Done done and done :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] wis38:
Let's do not forget that doing all those things in HW not only provides smooth video playback but also saves battery since HW video decoding is much more power efficient then the same implemented in SW.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gogol:
What? Only 14 diggs?

Come on people! I saw 4000+ users signed up the petition!
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] gman8966:
I was 17! There will be more...
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
Heh yeah I didn't notice this, Tweakers.net didn't link to the main page, but to the devices list page... That page didn't have the Digg / Slashdot thing on it... I placed it on all pages now, and it went up from 11 to 17 in like 2 minutes. Big rush is over now though :( (had to modify Slashdot javascript to use main page url for submit, blergh)

EDIT: Also, the petition took a long long time to get to 4000... maybe someone should open topics in the forums here at XDA for the other affected devices? :)

EDIT #2: Too bad no other site has picked it up yet though... or bloggers... or signatures... or :)
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] undac:
You should send a "proper" pressrelease to these international websites:

http://www.engadget.com/tips/

http://www.warp2search.net/submit.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/site/submission/press.html

http://www.dailytech.com/submitnews.aspx

http://www.tgdaily.com/component/option,com_contact/task,view/contact_id,10/Itemid,79/

http://www.pocketpcmag.com/_top/contact.asp

tips@gizmodo.com

hardnews@hardocp.com

news@xbitlabs.com

news@theregister.co.uk

Dan.Farber@cnet.com

news@pocketpcthoughts.com

If tgdaily, dailytech or cnet posted about this it will sperad like wildfire. (Which would open up for a new problem, can the server handle the load?)

Especially dailytech and hardocp are known supporters of the underdog perspective.

BTW chainfire, you've got mail inthe htcclassaction inbox.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] tscallions:
HTC Email Response

I emailed the HTC support group today and this was their response:

Hello Todd,

Thank you for your inquiry

I definitely see how this can be frustrating. At the present time we do not have any release information for any upcoming ROM. What I would recommend is registering as an eClub member on www.htc.com. This way you will be notified of any upcoming software releases.

Just to let you know, for more information on your device you can always check www.htcwiki.com.

I hope we have answered your question in detail. Feel free to contact us again if you have any further questions.

HTC Technical Support

http://www.america.htc.com

http://www.htcwiki.com

http://www.cingular.com/support/

--- Original Message ---

From: "HTC Web Team" <Member@htc.com>

Received: 1/16/08 10:26:38 AM EST

To: <info@htc.com>

Subject: Customer Service Mail From Todd Scallions

Name: Todd Scallions

Phone:

Eamil:

Country: United States

SN:

Computer:

Computer Model:

Computer Platform: Others

Computer other:

Description: I am extremely unhappy with the lack of video drivers for the HTC Kaiser. I have purchased an very powerful PDA that lags because of the lack of drivers. I want to know that this issue will be fixed in a future ROM update.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] swiftgs:
Do they even know themself what is stated in the wiki, in my opinion they "again" act like their nose is bleeding. They linked to some sites with all the information of the problems.... :mad:
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] Chainfire:
I will start writing a pressrelease after I have posted this and finished your return e-mail - suggestions welcome!

As for the server, I hope it will live. But the page was built with heavy load in mind, so clientside caching is used (not very useful for a one-time-visitor), every precaution possible in this setup has been taken so there's no actual disk access (prevent thrashing), everything is precompiled and small in size (13kb for the largest page - the frontpage) and it runs on a Pentium 3ghz on a dedicated 100mbit line. There's nothing more I can do right now. Local tests suggest it can handle 1600 pageviews per seond, remote tests put this figure around 60.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] mindbeat:
I just want to say, very well done every one! And a big thanx to Chainfire :) This is about to get so public known. Keep up the good work! :)

and btw, the last 24h my youtube video had more than 1000 visits.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] GSLEON3:
What a load of BS...

This is BS. They can say it is unreasonable to expect every function of the chip to functional, but they must say it before we purchase the device. It's completely unethical & misleading for them to tout the 3D capabilities & aceleration abilities of the chip knowing damn well that those specific functions are going to be crippled. Why would they talk about the media experience & the 3D capabilities of the chip instead of focusing solely on what the chip would actually do, such as GPS?

There is only one reason, to lure people to buy, people who find the 3D & acceleration functionality important.

This statement only worsens their position. Because now they say that they never intended to use a feature they themselves implied to be there.
[Tilt, TyTN II, MDA Vario III General] christopherwoods:
As I just wrote in the related Engadget thread (latest response from HTC from the 25th), I was SO close to buying a Kaiser but after their latest response, I'm just going to stick with my Hermes for another 18 months.

It ain't perfect, but at least I won't be wasting my money on something which I (reasonably) expect to perform better than my current, older handset.

Oh, and I'll get a fat little discount and 'loyalty bonus' from T-Mobile (according to the customer service rep) because I'll be continuing a contract without getting a new handset, so instant win there.

To those concerned at HTC - you lost a big sale from a longtime customer. I was even considering buy it OEM from Expansys because I preferred that colour scheme (yeah, I was THAT mad about the Kaiser!) Everybody who contributed to this end result needs a swift boot up the arse, and a kick in the teeth to go with it. How much more monumental can ****ups get in terms of offering a device which can't even perform to the same standards as a handset a generation older in comparison?

The mind boggles. Doubt I'll buy an HTC handset for a fair while, at least until the Kaiser Mk. 2 is sorted out (with hardware acceleration).