yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] HeartOfDarkness:
Well, you hugely underestimate what a "basic" satnav application does, I believe. TomTom, or others in kind, probably are the most power-hundgry applications running on our devices, especially so since they are, on top of CPU hungry, usually greedy on graphic resources. Yet most of the WinCE devices that run dedicated satnav solutions are 200, at most 300 MHz.

As I said in my previous post, it has everything to do with WinCE. Of course, the Touch GUI is, basically, a Windows Mobile application. But, Windows CE is, just the same, underlying all this. And it's WinCE that allows for easy, fast and efficient application development and allowed HTC to produce the Touch application that fast.

Right. But do not forget that the GUI of the Nokia and iPhone you mention end, too, at the nice-looking GUI. The difference, and advantage, we have on these devices is that however flawed the ergonomy of the rest of the interface is, it is at our disposal, while it does not even exist on those other devices.

They didn't do it for multiple reasons: they didn't need to (the WinCE platform was self-sustaining, competition faded to nothingness...), and they were even required to make an interface that even vaguely ressembled the desktop versions of Windows...

Mainly the fact that, in they roadmap, they said from the start that:

- WM6 would be a "consolidation" of WM5;

- WM7 would provide a significant overhaul, in particular with the GUI and the general user experience.

Nokia is, for now, the leader in mobile devices. Whichever OS they use is, therefore, the most distributed OS. But that's valid for "regular" phones, NOT PDA phones. In the PDA, and PDA phones market, Windows Mobile is quite simply the undisputed leader.

I can't agree more that PocketIE should be much better. In fact, much more than the "Windows-like" GUI, I find it infuriating to have such a basic 'HTML experience" on such a state of the art device, in 2007/2008. If the iPhone has any impact on our WinMo machines, I hope it is to show that integrating functionnalities such as Youtube, weather forecast, etc. is a minimum requirement for integrated functionnalities.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Yes, we all seem to be in agreement over the need for a better browser for the winCE environment. I'm impressed with Leoni's video demo of the browser on N800, although I suspect it does not handle Java also. I hope WM7 comes with one that not only handles flash video but also Java.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Leoni,

This comment contradicts a report by Gartner's group. The Gartner report analyses the OS used on PDA shipments and reported the following breakdown for 2005:

Window CE 1,653,638

RIM 840,000

Palm OS 678,570

Symbian 275,000

Linux 28,000

Others 140,000

See the report here:

http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS2332906960.html

It also shows Window CE to be leading in terms of capturing market share.

Gartner defines PDAs as "data-centric handheld computer weighing less than one pound that [are] primarily designed for use with both hands." The devices use "open market" OSes and can be equipped by the users with third-party applications. Additionally, PDAs "offer instant on/off capability and synchronization of files with a PC," in Gartner's view. Although the PDAs included in Gartner's data may offer voice capabilities, they are "data-first, voice-second devices."

I tried to find a more recent study and found this:

Microsoft shipped 3.2 million units of Windows CE in the first quarter, a rise of 64.4 percent over the same time last year. Meanwhile, the RIM, Palm, and Linux OSes all lost share in that same year-over-year comparison, Gartner said. Windows CE led the PDA market with 62.1 percent market share, towering over the RIM OS at 18.1 percent, Palm OS at 6.1, Symbian at 5.6 percent, and Linux at 0.7 percent.

The above paragraph is quoted from this link:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/05/23/PDA-sales-surge-in-Q1_1.html?MOBILE PCS

The above studies basically support HeartOfDarkness in his post, saying Microsoft is the undisputed leader, and if you look at the report's trend, continuing to grow the market share at an incredible rate.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Digital.Diablo:
To slightly divert the thread of nokia vs athena, I'm going to be taking a look at Android once it starts arriving on devices. I'm going to be wanting to swap back to a smaller phone to use as the main phone, then have the athena as my pda/mobile interweb gadget for the day to day work related jobs. WM7 initial possible screenshots look promising so perhaps we'll have a couple of projects on here to get WM7 and Android onto the Athena so that we can compare and contrast.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] HeartOfDarkness:
Thanks eaglesteve, my post indeed lacked the "hard facts" of the matter. :-)

A word on Linux "mobile". Several attempts where made to use Linux as a mobile device OS. One can cite Sharp with their Zaurus, for which they JUST announced they were discontinuing them, or Archos, with the PMA400.

All those devices were met with, to say the least, circumspection, or were downright unsuccessful. If we analyse their failure, what can we see:

- the OS was, in spite of what you're suggesting, Leoni, extremely heavy on the hardware. The Zaurus, for instance, had no communications capabilities, and were equipped from the start with 400 MHz XScale. And these XScales were barely enough. The PMA400 is even worse: it didn't sell because it was sluggish to the point of being unusable. On the paper, it was a dream. But the OS made it way too slow for such a device;

- one so called "huge pro" for a mobile Linux was that porting existing applications (Star Office, etc.) would not be too hard. Well, aside from the applications ported by Sharp or Archos, almost no other "heavyweights" were ported;

- simply put, development of third-party applications is a pain in the b*tt, that only a few geeks around the world will try to attempt.

On the WinCE side, we have an:

- extremely portable OS, with compiled versions already existing for pretty much ALL devices in the world, and for which compilation is a dream compared to a Linux kernel adaptation / compilation for a specific device;

- fast, robust, reliable multitasking environment *designed* to use such functionnalities as wireless, GSM, etc. communications. As opposed to Linux for which there is NO unification of how the system handles events such as a phone-call. A "for instance": if you receive a phone-call on a Linux machine, the OS has *no-way* of knowing that you're currently listening to music and it has to be paused, or that you're using a satnav. solution that has to be "minimized" but without disabling GPS tracking, etc. etc.

- *extremely* easy application development. In a few hours time, a .Net web-application developper can start developing heavy applications for the Windows CE platform. Using one of the most advanced IDE on the market, Visual Studio. And that's only *one* way of coding for Windows Mobile.

I agree that Symbian is a great "mobile-oriented" OS. PalmOS WAS an awesome mobile-device OS (anyone who had, like me, a Clié TH-55 would agree), until it went into the wall with embedded telephony and multi-tasking.

But none of them can compete, right now, with WinCE for PDAs and such solutions as autonomous GPS devices.

True, the Windows Mobile GUI and PocketIE functionnalities are infuriatingly bad, and they SHOULD wake up and finally provide a truely ergonomical interface, probably getting rid of the "pseudo-Windows-like" environment, or a contrario finally making it as easy to use and full-featured as a desktop Windows... But I can't see anyone taking on WinCE in the near and not so near future for the PDA and PDA Pone market.

IMHO of course. :-)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Gee, that's solid information. Good stuff HeartOfDarkness. Thanks for educating me.;)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] leoni1980:
Fl3 is coming to windows mobile at some point. It will make a difference at least without the need to wait for a new OS
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Leoni, what's Fl3? Flash Lite 3? I think Adobe has not plan to make it availabel for window mobile although it was once touted as a multiplatform thing. See here:

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=663&threadid=1320006

More likely, it is the silverlight that will be used for wondow mobile. I think it would be incorporated into WM7. See here:http://swfoo.com/?p=147
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] leoni1980:
flash lite 3 is still planned for release embedded into windows mobile and primarily symbian devices over the next 3 months. Presumably it will be incorporated into software updates but the speediness of integration will be partly down to individual network providers.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
I had always thought that it is necessary to first download classical youtube before playing it. I just learned that with pocket IE, TCPMP and the right plugins, we can have the option of either playing all flash 9 videos (from youtube, myspace, etc) directly or after download. Thanks to branko.savic's post #43 in this thread:

http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?p=1882111#post1882111

The video performance is very smooth with my quick trial of a few videos. No lag due to buffering, etc.

So, I'm glad that another of what I thought to be a major shortcoming of Athena is actually no longer a problem.;)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] wgary:
There is a difference between an OS being sold and being used. I know a lot of people with Windows CE on their Q, Blackjack, or other "smartphone" who can barely figure out how to look at call history. They really don't browse the web or use other data features.

In contrast, the iPhone market share may be smaller, but some reports suggest that it is actually being used much more fully than Windows CE -- iPhone generates twice the web traffic as WCE.

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/16274/

Just food for thought. Maybe it's not Nokia vs. WCE...
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
I won't go for iphone even if it really has a great browser. I look at ALL aspects, not just web browsing. WinMo offers the best array of third party software, in breath and quality. All my top favourite softwares do not run outside winmo environments.

Anyway, for the iPhone fans, here is an interesting made in China iPhone running Winmo

http://www.mobilehornet.com/archives/971
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] wgary:
I agree, for you and me, there's no compare. I wouldn't give up my Athena for a 64GB iPhone, what you get is too limiting. However, my point is that for the average user, Windows is just too difficult, not inviting, and unintuitive. When you add apps you want and spend some time customizing, you can end up with a very usable device. But not out of the box... and that's all that the vast majority of people experience.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
True. I'd die of boredom if the phone looks and works the same after two weeks! But my wife may like it.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] wgary:
Fanning the flames :)

"Apple iPhone grabs 28% of U.S. smartphone market; ahead of all Windows Mobile devices combined"

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/16300/

I take this as a challenge to Windows Mobile vendors -- produce a better user experience!
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] Confucious:
Here's my next device ;)

http://www.modaco.com/content/Pocke...081/HTCs-Magnum-Making-the-Athena-Look-Petit/
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] tootallk2000:
LMAO...Pretty cool for watching movies, but where in the car would you mount that for Navigation?
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] LandRocket:
Car Mount

Well, I always fancied removing the Windscreen...

Anyone know where I can get a copy of CarHUD 1.0 for PocketPC, and do you know if it works in RealVGA :-)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] tootallk2000:
LMAO....Do you want to run that in 96 or 128dpi? :D
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
iPhone has brought about more intensified competition and lifted the bar for winmo, so I thank Apple for that.

Each would have to decide what phone is best for his/her own need. I'm happy for people who have found the right device.

Statistics can be presented to fool. In any case, a person who wants a BMW 7 series is not going to look at the higer sales volume of Toyota and say, heh, Toyota is enjoying higher sales, let me also change my car.

For me, iPhone is good for entertainment, for demo, but too limiting for actual use.

Below are some of the comments from actual iPhone users.

Comment from a dcstar:

"How many iphone users outside of US here ?

Hi guys

I just wondering how many Iphone users in this forum (outside of US) ?

I'm an Iphone user in Malaysia.

I think it's really an overated phone, it's more like an entertainment device.

what's your comments ?"

Comment from a alvinrayu:

"am from the philippines

it wasn't meant and made for the asian market, at least for now....

perhaps the asian revision/version will be much sms-friendly."

Comment from a united:

"from jakarta indonesia .

me and closed friends totally 6 pcs

but , the sms is not good , cannot multiple contact sends , cannot forward ...

cannot do copy and paste , bluetooth only to kinda headsets ,

cannot copy to and from pc ...

windowmobile still above ....

it helps when you see the screen , everything is good seeing in an iphone screen.

that's it .

thank you"

Comment from a tng747:

"I'm in bangkok. Actually when i use Iphone, i really miss sony clie."

Comment from a crazygolfer:

"i am from hong kong and also use the tytn II which is much better for emails and messaging but the Iphone is definately a better entertainment machine"

Comment from a redlite:

"iam from South Africa...its a cool pod with a phone only..screen is good ..but noting else to compare with wm6"

For me, I want a clock application that not just show time, but also time of multiple cities, alarm clock, stop watch to count up and down, etc.

I want not just any GPS, but the best, which IMO is IGO.

The list goes on and on, which iPhone can in noway satisfy. Therefore, unless my needs can be met, I'm not going to be fooled by the fancy user interface. Anyway, talking about interface, I much prefer being able to launch everything and see almost everything on the today screen itself, instead of having to drill down or flip to other view so many times before I reach the application.

Not saying iPhone is not good. Just that it would not suit my need.:)
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] wgary:
This is an excellent analysis. The other thing I think WM manufacturers could benefit from a marketing perspective would be to look at the setup of how power users have customized their phones to see the possibilities of making a really USEABLE device out of the box!
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Usebable device out of the box is a good idea. I would like to see phone profile switcher, realVGA, wktask, Opera Mini 4 (not the regular Opera or PIE), TCPMP with Flash Bundle already installed, a VGA soft keyboard, photo dialing, good weather program, a proper quick launch program like iLauncher that can have unlimited applications, a finger friendly SMS chat application, a file browser as good as Resco...

But, if microsoft do this, I believe the antitrust people will come down very hard on them..:D. Lucky for Apple now. Because they are still so small, antitrust does not focus on them even though they have a very closed platform that prevents other suppliers from participating.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] sergiopi:
This is the MICROSOFT business model man, not an antitrust problem!!!

OS producer, HW manufacturers and SW developers, pushing the market together.

OS Basic features, you choose the HW and the developers power-up! And this is what we like.

This forum is feeded from MS and HTC with "leaked" ROM, utilities IMHO to push this business model. And I think this could be the winning business model again. NOKIA and APPLE are going to the the market with full featured-out of the box devices, with poor integration with the most used device in business and consumer life (no, isn't the televison :) )

Microsoft chose the hardest way, OS only, as they have done with MS-DOS business model from the beginning, with upgrades driven from developers and HW evolution. Do you rembember the evolution of graphic cards and OS in the PC world? More or less the same! Have you ever seen "pirates of the silicon valley"? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1552555273778978142 full version here . History teach us.....
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] joohan:
The Microsoft businessmodel is for a very small consumergroup. Most users wants fully functional devices out of the box. Thats why Googles project won't conquer the world. My Athena is the most expensive phone I have ever owned, and still it underperforms as a phone compared to cheap Nokias. It is however a marvelous mini-computer! HTC makes good hardware, but it won't ever work smoothly because they don't produce the OS. Far too many clitches and bugs for normal users to accept. The more demanding functionality we require, needs the OS to be tightly integrated with harware, and 3rd party products controlled. I belive that the Apple approach will produce the most satisfied customers. Remember that we all in this forum are a minority.

Regards

Johan
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
Both of you have very good points which I agree with.

First,I agree that we are a minority group here who enjoy customising the device. I also agree that HTC's devices make goodmobile computer.

I think HTC is in a lot more control of the final product than described even if microsoft's business model remains. Take Athena for example, it is an excellentphone if the right customization is done at the factory instead of by the users. Example, HTC can package in the right phone profile switcher on today screen(spb phone suit comes into my mine). It can also choose to use a SSD instead of microdrive so that it would have a vibrating mode. HTC could have put in an embedded ear piece.

I do think that antitrust law is a potential problem though.

As for the business model issue, I think it is not a bad one to also cater to minority customers like us, who would never settle for a closed unmodifiable device like iPhone. My device looks different almost every week. Last week I only had PIE and Opera browser. This week, Minimo, Picsel, ibisbrowser,netfront, opera mini4 are all in my collection. I was usign iLaucher and very happy with it, but now I'm exploring UltimateLaunch and look set to adopt it. I just LOVE being able to do this. Does not matter what the majority wants. I know what I want :D . I know for sure that my next upgrade will be a winmo device, with a 5 inches or so screen, and incorporating many many features.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
For those of use who have been contemplating changing to iPhone, the following websites has lots and lots of user feedback.

http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/user_reviews.php?phone=1110&s=h&p=17
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] mahjong:
Interesting iPhone site. But I can't figure out how to access that site from the iPhone since the got only GRPS... :p

Just a joke. Hmmm... maybe not... the iPhone should have 3G or 3.5G from the begining.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
HTC Touch HD is it !!

For me, HTC Touch HD is pretty close to what I've been looking for in my next upgrade.

The 800x480 rather than the regular 640x480 resolution that I much prefer is something I've have to put up with as a compromise. I expect some difficulties with software compatibility due to this factor.

I've also hoped that it would be at least a 4 inch screen, if not still a 5 inch device. However, 3.8 inch is quite close to my minimum expectation, so I'd still go with it too (unless they announce a bigger device in time for me to withhold my purchase). What a shame that they make HTC Touch HD so small. HTC could afford to make the phone slightly bigger, with at least 4 inch screen. I just simply would prefer a bigger device for the sake of getting a bigger screen. Other than being too small, I think the form factor is fantastic.

Other than the above two aspects, which are disappointment for me, I think it is quite close to what I've been describing as my ideal replacement.

I'm personally very pleased with the decision to leave out hardware keyboard.

It has an FM radio, which is something that I really wanted.

Still has no television though, regretably.

http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=64790

No WM7 yet, but I'm sure our wonderful cooks will take care of that in due time.
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] lakeman:
Touch HD has no joystick

I think you may well be right but i think it has no joystick or other way of navigating on the screen
[Advantage X7500, MDA Ameo Upgrading] eaglesteve:
You're right on this.
[Honor 6X Questions & Answers] omair.anwer:
To get to Andorid 7, I used Firmware finder method as send to updated and flashed "BLN-L21C432B342" Firmware finder send to update method.

Most of the updated using from: http://hwmt.ru/oth/HWFF/info/view.php?find_model=bln but it does not have second update package which is needed to flash to get the updater app and others.

Guide to get back to BLN-L21C185

DIAL: *#*#2846579#*#*

GO TO : 2.Veneer Information >

1.Version info >>Manufacture Information is your actual model: (my is: BERLIN_L21 i.e.: BLN-L21)

Scroll to end there will be current version, this is the version you need to use to roll back.

My was Bln-l24

1. So i downloaded the BLN-L24 USA Roll back package.

2. And downloaded the BLN-L24 Latest Andorid 6 update. (BLN-L24C567B110)

both FROM: http://www.huawei.com/usmobile/consumer/support/downloads/index.htm

Above are flashed using Sd card dload method and they worked. 1st flash roll back package and let the phone start to normal than again flash the android 6 package "BLN-L24C567B110".

Now you are back to BLN-L24 but setting is showing BLN-L110.

Anyways now you have updater app back so use the same method to get back to BLN-L21C185B131 (android mm).

I did not roll back and instead flashed BLN-L21C185B342 as it is available now, using firmware finder send to update: https://xdaforums.com/tools/general/huawei-firmware-finder-team-mt-t3469146 and bingo back to C185 andorid 7 with updater app.

FACTORY RESET YOUR PHONE IN THE END.
[Honor 6X Questions & Answers] Tangra:
My phone was on BLN-L21C185B131. I installed firmware finder on my PC and downloaded BLN-L21C185B342 from there. From update.zip extracted update.app and installed using dload method. At the end of the update the message was something like "update failed". Now "System update" is missing in settings, factory reset is not working properly (it resets the phone but there is a message during the reset that Factory reset failed) and the build number is "NRD90M test-keys".

Please advice how I can fix it. Tnx
[Honor 6X Questions & Answers] omair.anwer:
You should have used the method sent to updater.. anyways you have to flash the second half part of it.. "

update_data_full_BLN-L21_hw_meafnaf.zip"

I am uploading the second part which you should be able to flash using dload to get the complete update with updater working.

Will share the link soon.
[Honor 6X Questions & Answers] Mohammad.b:
How is it

What about themes app is it work and are there a rollback package if you didn't like it