yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[General Topics] Perseus:
Dear Mazda, I too wholeheartedly agree with that statement of Neo. Your Post #9 was well thought out, articulate and brought out some really good points. I had incorporated those in my post above.

I truly and genuinely wish you will contribute to the discussion at hand set by OP. Your opinion is valued.
[General Topics] Char_G:
Ground Zero ROMs applied for a Custom ROM Central subforum in October, 2016. We were ignored​ until [MENTION=1050103]sykopompos[/MENTION] intervened a couple of weeks ago and we were finally approved for our subforum. I can't help but wonder how many other teams had the same experience.
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
Ignored? In what way did you request it? Normally a request like that is actioned, or certainly acknowledged very quickly. If you hadn't heard back, why not let us know and get back to us?
[General Topics] :
It's fine that devs can use the DevDB option. But the problem is that those users we are talking about will still post nonsense in main thread. I don't talk about "noobs" or beginners. I talk about the people who don't read OP or some pages back because of laziness or egoism.

Sure, sometimes it's not easy to determine if this should be posted in main thread or Q&A section. But in most cases it's obvisious if someone isn't interested in participating in the community.

Rule #1 is useless if the majority doesn't stick to it.
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
That's true too, I understand this. If a dev has set up a separate Q&A thread, and people are ignoring requests to stop posting i the main thread, mods can step in and clear the thread and help to get the message across.
[General Topics] Myself5:
But would't labeling the message as spam along with hiding it in a spoiler prevent that?

The spammy user would know why the message was hidden straight away, and the moderation done by the dev will be public. That should (judging from my own opinion here) prevent any moderation permission abuse as you can't just simply go ahead and delete the post of person X cause you dislike it. That way, the crowd basically "overwatches" your moderation skills.

Unfortunally this leads back to the requirement of people actually reading Q&A threads and OPs instead of expecting the developers to spoonfeed them. And that is unfortunally not the way its working at the moment.
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
Yep, that's the issue we have. We simply cannot FORCE people to sit and read every rule until they know them off by heart. It's frustrating. Believe me it's frustrating for us mods too. We've tried all sorts of ways to combat it. Things like the 10-post limit were put in place, but ultimately removed because it creates other issues.
[General Topics] Char_G:
I pmed all of the information to a forum moderator and he submitted it on October 20, I asked about it on October 26th and it was mentioned to Jerdog again. We waited and never heard anything else so we gave up and moved on.
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
So if you don't hear back from the same person after asking more than once, try asking another mod or admin :)
[General Topics] Char_G:
So, it's our fault that Jerdog did not respond and we are supposed to run from mod to mod, begging someone to please listen to us? I'm sorry, GZR does not beg.
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
Who said beg? What on earth are you talking about?

All I said was if you don't hear back from a mod after requesting something, contact someone else about it. I can't speak for Jerdog so I don't know why it wasn't responded to. But if you contact another mod or admin to follow up on it, we'll do that for you.

It's not about begging, it's about using common sense.
[General Topics] nathanchance:
This is more my fault if anything since I was the one who requested it for them and I wasn't sure where else to go for input so I just let it sit. No need for any hard feelings on any side, I know now what to do in the future :)
[General Topics] Char_G:
It isn't your fault either, it goes to prove that things need to change. We at GZR have felt uncomfortable at XDA for a long time, that's why we didn't push the issue. IMO, t seems like XDA has its favorite projects and anyone else's​ doesn't really matter. That's why we moved most of our stuff to G+ where we have more control over our community and trolls. We want to give XDA a chance to prove that they have the best interests of all developers, that's why I'm on this thread.
[General Topics] :
Trolls you say? I love trolls. Message me anytime about the trolls. Seriously, it would make my day. :silly:;)
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
This is so far from the truth. It actually couldn't be further from the truth.

This is once of the reasons this thread is here. Tell us what we can do to improve things for developers.

What (apart from this mentioned issue) makes you think we have our "favourite" projects, and that the rest don't matter?
[General Topics] Char_G:
As I said, that's my opinion and that's why I'm here on this thread, to see if things here can change my opinion. So far, it's been pretty much all drama but hope springs​ eternal. So, give me some hope ;)

---------- Post added at 02:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 AM ----------

But I like hammering trolls too, you can't have all the fun :p
[General Topics] _that:
So you think that it's OK that I clone your half-finished Apache-licensed code from Github, add some string changes, and post the result on XDA without sources to get thanks and donations? The license lets me do that. In what way are the arguments of others who pointed out that this is problematic invalid?

Maybe that's a question of definition of "strict", but I consider the GPL stricter than Apache or BSD, and I'd like to see all code on XDA under GPL or other copyleft licenses. Also XDA can't remove conditions from a license of code they didn't write.

I don't have such a long experience with Android and no statistics, but that number seems way off. It would mean that custom ROM developers now hardly write any new code, and that's simply not true.

Does that mean you're excluding real developers and are only talking about people collecting various patches and calling the result their own?

In the GNU/Linux world, distribution maintainers do something similar, and it's an important job. However nobody would claim that the Linux kernel or LibreOffice was made by Ubuntu just because they added a few patches and packaged it into a distro.

I'd like to be able to write in an OP "If you ask any question answered in the following FAQ post, I'll report your post and you'll be banned for a week", and have the backing of moderators to execute it.
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
So do you think we should disallow anyone asking for donations? Should we remove that altogether? Just asking out loud.

That's one of the issues we've faced over the last few years. As most know, XDA started as a place for a bunch of super nerds to reverse engineer (that's literally what they did) the WM PDA bootloaders and ROMs. And they tinkered with them to allow people to install much more on their device than was originally intended. They literally worked TOGETHER as a team, and SHARED their work with everyone. It wasn't about donation $$, it wasn't about e-peen. it was because they enjoyed doing what they do, and wanted to share. I remember it well, as that's when I joined XDA. It was amazing what these guys achieved.

But as smartphones have become more popular (back then it was just us nerds who used WM PDAs), it's become more accessible to everyone. And there's been a BIG shift in how people develop ROMs and apps. Now it's all about keeping things to yourself, not sharing code or ideas with anyone. It's all a race to be the first to release version x.y.z, or to release a kernel that enables function 1, 2 and 3.

Of course we'll never return to the old days, but we do need to find some middle ground. On one hand we have licensing (GPL etc) that in very simple terms, allows other people to use your code. But on the other hand, we don't want people just going around copying and pasting code from developers hard work, and taking credit for themselves. That's NOT what XDA is about at all.

This is one of the ongoing challenges we face, that simply does not have a perfect solution. And is why we're asking all of you for your valued opinion.
[General Topics] xanthrax:
[MENTION=278202]the_scotsman[/MENTION]

If this will happen then the XDA's carrying about trafic myth, as some stated will dissappear well, let's say 83.6%

I'm not a developer and never will so I can't talk on the donations matter but the removal sounds like a courageous move as long as all problems seemed that have started from here

Moderators and staff accused of corruption so, no money no party, just do it

Sent from my Darkside of Oneplus 3
[General Topics] the_scotsman:
I'm not saying it will or won't happen. That's not my call. I'm just simply asking the question. I think it's one of the things Mike raised in the OP too. We want feedback on everything.
[General Topics] woodman:
Throwing here a small idea about this particular GZR recent issue. The topic is how could devs feel more comfortable.

Could an application for a subforum like GZR on Custom ROM Central be done publicly instead? Why don't you/we use public threads like this already existing one to achieve this? I follow this thread and it's unfortunately not used that much. There's also an equivalent thread about devices here: "New Device Forum Resquest".

So, why don't we use the public path so that any available and capable mods and admins (who have all subscribed to such threads) could handle the request (any request about development and website organization). Doing this publicly (if theres's no secret about the request itself) is stronger than using the PM way IMHO. In addition, a specific moderator/ contributor or anyone authorized could even make a public pending request list in OP of such "Request" thread like this one as stated previously. It should be a good way to show publicly that XDA care about devs/contributor and they are not ignored.
[General Topics] _that:
Hard question. I think that at this stage it's too late to completely remove the donation buttons, it would just move donation requests to inline text in the posts or to other channels. It's also not wrong to use donations to reward developers for their work. The important word here is: for *their* work.

The problem is that uneducated users have no way to tell if a "developer" is just a "repo sync warror" or someone who really adds original value to a product. They will donate to anyone if they think that they deserve it, even if by our measures they don't.

So let's rephrase the question: Can we restrict donations to those people who add value to the community? And how?

XDA could limit the donation system to those members who have proven to add value to the community, that would be the "Recognized" members (remember that not only developers deserve donations). Donation requests from other members in posts or signatures would be disallowed (report, warn, ban). With this in place, I guess that many unqualified people would try to apply for RC/RD. Any other disadvantages? Some "repo sync warriors" might just leave XDA and cause their followers to complain loudly.

Since I mentioned signatures ... these are another reason why XDA looks very unprofessional - signatures should be limited to 3 lines of small text and maybe a small picture, and everything else that members currently have in their sigs should be only visible on their profile page. It should not be required to turn off signature display completely to get a readable forum.
[General Topics] _that:
That sounds more like the job of a ticket system to me. Which would probably be a good addition for DevDB too (opt-in only). Or just use an existing one like Github issues.
[General Topics] woodman:
I'm not agianst the idea but if this happens someday, RD should have a specific moderation training/test by the moderator committee before allowing MORE moderation powers of their own threads. And as stated previously in this thread, if abuse (reported by users abused) then revoke RD mod powers.

EDIT: and if it exists someday, the RD application program should contain prerequisites about moderation skills . Then any new RD should be ready.

Annoying users have to be reported and given some infractions/ban more strictly than today (mainly if devs themselves are annoyed). It's one of the main reason I see devs complaining about XDA / quiting XDA.

Donation button is enough, no active request should be allowed., as said by _that, there should be report, warn, ban.

In my case, I received 1 or 2 donations, but I've fully given back to XDA (1 or 2 of my donation stars are from donations of XDA members)

Refer to my previous post about a public follow-up of devs concerns.

---------- Post added at 10:54 ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 ----------

Any system devs would like, I agree. This should be public and promoted/highlighted on the XDA website.

---------- Post added at 11:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 ----------

Forgot to say that I don't know what sould be done for devs who are not RD... Mod power allowed after a training as well as RD? Or should they apply for RD title before?
[General Topics] :
This is why I'm dubious about the idea of developers moderating their own threads. I fear that the more "strongly opinionated" out there would just alienate too many new members. Of course I understand that this would be a good thing for some :) It goes back to an earlier question I posed whether we collectively want to go back to an "elite" developers site with no or very little patience for new users or whether it remains a place that welcomes new users. Perhaps more emphasis needs to be made to educate new users in regards to etiquette and forum rules.....

I think at the very least, warnings should be given for asking questions covered in a FAQ(as well as giving them some education), but banning a newbie with 1 post who doesn't have a clue about how to use a forum to me is harsh. Just my opinion.

I think donations should be limited, but prohibiting them altogether would just move the problem

Define "people who add value...."? On one hand there is blatant contempt from the developers here towards "repo sync warriors", but plenty of communities(devices) have these people to thank for all the different custom roms being released for their device that wouldn't otherwise be available. Are the rom developers going out of their way to release XYZ rom for all semi-popular devices? Of course not. So, the repo sync warriors in some cases provide a much valued service to those people. As long as proper credit is given, I would argue they very much add value to the community. Are they "Developers"? No.
[General Topics] mazwoz:
As I stated previously, those doing device bring ups are not repo sync warriors. They are adding value to the community. Repo sync warriors add nothing and change only a few strings (names, versions, etc). That does not add value, it creates issues.
[General Topics] :
I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm not talking about those doing device bring ups. What about when a device has CM/LOS, and someone just syncs existing device repos and XYZ rom(LOS/CM based) and provides another rom that was not available for that device before? Are they "repo sync warriors"?
[General Topics] _that:
Any new user who reads the rules and the OP is always welcome and never gets in danger to be banned. That is not about going to an "elite developers site", just about demanding common sense from all users. Every community has rules. People who think that the rules don't apply to them need to be shown that they do, unlike now. Yes, banning is harsh and it was a bit exaggerated, but you gotta start with demanding extremes to finally reach some compromise. ;)

There are lots of "how to behave on XDA" threads, not only in the forum rules. The official rules should link to an official guide how to ask questions properly, based on http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html and shortened and adapted to XDA.

Every idiot can build Android, that's the "repo sync warrior". But getting it to work on a new device is not trivial, and anyone who builds and tests (!) a ROM for a new device clearly does add value even if they don't write actual code.

That said, posting untested builds by others than original developers should be forbidden. And original developers should clearly state that their build is untested because they don't have the device.
[General Topics] woodman:
About the Forum Rules topic, an easy tweak should be done. Check my mockup attached.
[General Topics] woodman:
I forgot to ask: do new members have to read and accept forum rules while subscribing on the website? I don't remember this point when I subscribed in 2012 :D
[General Topics] Whiskey103:
Well, you do have a point there I guess.

Since lately we are using the "announcement" to highlight other stuff instead of the xda rules we used to have there.

Assuming new users would actually read them instead of just dumping the question that is.

And yes, as far I know they have to acknowledge the rules, not sure it's a checkbox or something.

Maybe it's something like "by registering on this website you agree to our rules"
[General Topics] xenreon:
Well I've been reading this thread for awhile and now have a few suggestions/opinions of my own that I'd like to throw into the mix:

1. Developers should be able to set certain terms for using their work, but rules should be set to what kinda terms one can add for using their work to make it all fair and not have it backfire instead.

2. I don't think letting developers completely delete posts from their threads directly should be allowed. Instead letting them "hide" the posts that are "unacceptable" with a reason selected should be the thing, then if a moderator thinks it's right to completely delete that post they can do so.

3. To handle the annoying users there should be sort of a "mark as unacceptable" button, a developer can mark the "unacceptable" posts of an user a certain amount of time and after it exceeds that set limit those users should be temporarily infracted and maybe even forwarded to a moderator. It would be better if each time the temporary ban gets longer than the previous one.
[General Topics] Perseus:
I am terribly sorry to hear that. No excuses. Please be kind and check my PM.

I see sense in this point and I agree. However, some light cleanup is always done in the custom Rom fora by the said developers.

Wholeheartedly agreed. I support this idea.

Again, I see sensible argument with the point that trolls need bigger stick. Current process and rules do not envisage such a stick and is a very valid suggestion.

Applying for RD is highly encouraged. If anyone is struggling for advice on how to fill the application or has questions, please feel free to contact me, I am happy to guide through the process. Please bear in mind I am not at all connected with the RD Approval Process. That's the RD Committee.
[General Topics] MSF Jarvis:
Really happy everybody has put aside personal differences and the thread is back on track. Here's to change!
[General Topics] egzthunder1:
I am guilty as charged of this. But one of my all time favorite users (not even sure if he is still around) was Magnus_Ragnarok (anyone with a TF100 will remember him [MENTION=3200478]Woody[/MENTION].. remember that jewell? :)). I had lost count how many times we had asked him to reduce the size of his signature :)
[General Topics] egzthunder1:
Yes
[General Topics] _that:
Aah, *there*'s the link. Since the global announcement was changed to some VPN product placement I had to use Google to find the forum rules.

May I suggest another (additional) place for the forum rules link? Put it on the "New Thread" and "New Reply" forms. For new users make it a checkbox that they have to explicitly check before being able to submit their post, for others just keep the link (or pre-fill the checkbox).
[General Topics] :
They are at the bottom of every page. (on a browser) :highfive:

But yes, more exposure would be good too. :good:
[General Topics] FSadino:
Totally agree, donations are killing the "xda spirit" discussed on other thread.

That was the old spirit here when i came on 2011 year

Thanks meter hunters, like donation hunters, are killing xda everyday. Im from the time when signatures have significant information about personal work, now they have "hit Thanks button"...
[General Topics] BeansTown106:
i have alot more to say but that is a brief outline of a couple thoughts, to get myself "in" the conversation
[General Topics] Char_G:
Substratum is a community project and isn't owned by Projekt
[General Topics] sykopompos:
[QUOTE

Been sick for a few days so I have mostly been quiet and haven't gotten a chance to outline what is going on yet.

Substratum is not is any company's assets and is and always will be a community owned and driven project.
[General Topics] BeansTown106:
this isn't about substratum yes substratum might not be owned by (project) but there is definitely motive to make money in the future by using substratum's popularity, seems you missed the point that XDA really has no say to dictate donations, because everything they do is "for profit" they would never have met with you and Nicholas, if there wasn't money to be made as well as you would never have formed a corporation.
[General Topics] FSadino:
I agree with pretty much everything that was said by [MENTION=8169485]AvoidTheDrama[/MENTION]
[General Topics] BeansTown106:
if you cant talk with your real username then you shouldnt be posting here, puppy accounts are a big NO NO on xda and if you wanna be taken seriously post from your real account.
[General Topics] ShinySide:
Haha Dammit I should of betted the money you'd be the first :)

I know you like drama and all but I like to avoid it popping on my mobile ;) Again they can just pm me. Ill make it easy :o
[General Topics] Surge1223:
Is it just me, or is anyone else waiting for jerdog to reply? Given the gravity of this thread and that he's been active... Seems like a logical next step

/me goes back to waiting
[General Topics] BeansTown106:
really lol, u act like i cant find out who you are within 10 seconds, seems someone has an axe to grind and doesn't wanna show his true identity
[General Topics] Neo:
Already know who you are [emoji14] As beans mentioned though, we'd very much prefer you post with your real username. You're putting me in a funny position here because it's not allowed on the site yet I want to hear what you have to say lol
[General Topics] BeansTown106:
so by knowing who he is and allowing it does that mean, he is above the law when it comes to xda, is he one of your friends? sure seems like it...

this is supposed to be a thread for xda to reach out to devs and save its image, not a place for xda's elite to come dictate the conversation.
[General Topics] Neo:
I agree beans and no, I've never met him before or have ever seen his username before. However, being a recognized developer, I'm a bit leary about jumping the gun and dropping the axe since this thread regards developer relations. I mean, I had to have all of the flaming posts I deleted restored the other day... We don't allow that either.
[General Topics] ShinySide:
Go for it bud. I really dont care about your ego sh!t and gave you my honest answer.

Thats fine. And i gave you all i wanted to say and just wanted to say it and pop out and avoid this popping up in my mobile feed with people crying about losing stupid internet tags and guys with huge egos. Already have enough crap I have to filter from device from 3 years ago. All I was using this for so it is what it is. I wont cry about a tag or anything ;)
[General Topics] Surge1223:
Lol ignoring messages is a thing, you should try it. Or just do the other option, you know, break xda rules, create a puppy account, and hide under a false name.

BRB while I make a puppy account....
[General Topics] Neo:
Alright alright.. I see your point ;)

We do not allow this. This thread needs to be kept honest and by posting under another name, that already looks bad. I will rectify this in a minute.