yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
I don't have the slightest idea of what a Substratum overlay is, so I'm definitely not using it. :laugh:

All is done now. As suggested, I backed up Data before wiping and, upon restoring it, all user apps and settings were there. Cool. :good: I had to re-flash the full ROM via Odin though, because I "overwiped" (wiped System) and somehow soft-bricked the phone.

Screen unlock lag is gone with Magisk.

Now I'm figuring out how to block network access to some apps without a VPN. Pretty hard. Sort of Privacy Guard feature in CM, which IMHO is irreplaceable.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] dedy73:
Yes
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] metalox:
Thanks - it worked - where to post the last_log?

Thank you for this - It worked fine.

On point 3 - Check that /data/ is mountable - how to do this?

I got this message after formatting:

Data Format Complete

Successful

could not mount /data and unable to find crypto footer.

Failed to mount '/data' (Invalid argument)

unable to recreate /data/media folder

Updating partition details...

Failed to mount '/data' (Invalid argument)

...done

unable to mount storage

Failed to mount '/data' (Invalid argument)

Full SELinux support is present.

unable to mount /data/media/tTWRP/.twrps

MTP Enabled

Formatting data using make_ext4fs...

You may need to reboot to recovery mode to be able to use /data again.

Updating partition details...

...done

Which looks like /data/ is not mountable - however the headline says: successful! Anyhow it worked.

I am new here: How should I post the last_log - can I upload it somehow? Or do I just paste it into a post here in this thread?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Looks like you've done it correctly. Those messages will be before the format.

If you can put a check in /data you are good to go.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] metalox:
Hi - it did work yes :D - but its the: "If you can put a check in /data you are good to go" - How can I do this please (for next time)

and how to send you the Log please?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
You'll find it under MOUNT options.

Save log is under ADVANCED options.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
You could save the logs to your Google drive and post the link here. Please don't copy and paste the log in a post because it is too long and would bloat the thread. Please try to only post links to the log.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] metalox:
can't share links - sorry

I would be happy to send you the last_log but I am not allowed to share links - sorry

Please get in touch if you'd like me to send you the last_log file directly

Best wishes

Ben
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
Yeah I forgot that, you probably need 10 or more posts before you can share links.

But at least you are one of the very few users that seem to read the rules and also you want to share logs. So thanks for that.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
[MENTION=4899305]ashyx[/MENTION]

I flashed the stock Oreo firmware 2 hours ago and I am facing a problem in disabling the force-encryption to be able to mount /data.

I flashed Magisk at first as it is a total solution for me (root & disable force-encryption & modules) the /data partition become mountable and I restored my data backup, but after booting to system and back to TWRP it was not mountable even tho I flashed Magisk before I booted to system for the first time, so I tried to format data, flashed Magisk again and the /data partition was mountable but when I rebooted to system and back to TWRP again the /data partition become unmountable again :( .

At first I thought that Magisk own disable force-encryption method is broken on Oreo, so I tried your no-verity-no-encrypt.zip and I got the same results.

what should I do and how can I help you to fix this?

Edit: I attached the boot.img file, thought it would be helpful since the whole patch is done to the boot.img

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zLVeggCu9GJYDvNPh9mNzSlShdQKFMiM
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Can you post the recovery recovery log in file format?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
I coped the logs in TWRP but when I go to the logs destination in TWRP file manager the data folder is empty and I cant get them using root browser apk because the device is freezing and keeps crashing.

sorry for being super nova noob.

btw I attached the boot.img in my first post

Edit: I got the log from /cache/recovery/last_log

https://drive.google.com/open?id=15SNggg1JO1MMVEHg9yMzkVnbCTttMyaX
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
[MENTION=4899305]ashyx[/MENTION]

were the boot.img and recovery log useful at all?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
The log you've posted doesn't contain any info regarding the boot image patch install.

The log needs to be created in the same session after flashing the patch or Magisk.

I will check the boot.img out later. Is this the stock boot.img or pulled from the device after patching?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
the boot.img is stock.

I will reflash the firmware and flash magisk or your patch to give you the best log possible.

---------- Post added at 06:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------

@ashyx

here are the logs after flashing your patch with a clean firmware:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1f8y1k-xDnhltVX5Dxhd7i-9FkX7mpRXc

if you need any further info do not hesitate to ask me!
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Well the boot image seems to patch just fine and data is mountable.

Are you flashing the RMM patch after Magisk too?

It could be the RMM patch breaking the encryption patch.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
yes I flashed RMM patch the last time too because without it I wont be able to root and will have to wait for days according to this guid https://xdaforums.com/samsung-a-series-2017/how-to/guide-root-install-twrp-samsung-t3747535.

I will do a clean firmware install again and flash your patch only, without RMM patch this time.

P.S. 2 moths ago I flashed RMM patch on Nougat before flashing magisk and everything worked fine.

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

@ashyx here is the log after flashing your patch only with clean firmware:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sT0lSFKd-jN-MtbeWjNBe9jpRkyJV_P7

I will inform you if anything went different...

---------- Post added at 07:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 PM ----------

@ashyx

after flashing your patch I restored my data backup and reboot to system and booted back to TWRP and I found the /data partition unmountable.

so I thought maybe my backup is reason, so I formatted data and flashed your patch and rebooted and waited till the setup wizard and tried to boot to TWRP but I got the message (only official released binaries are allowed to be flashed)

what should I do now?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
So everything seems to be working as regards patching encryption.

Basically I think you need to flash the encryption patch AFTER the RMM patch.

You should always flash the encryption patch last as other patches can break the mods it does.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
how is this possible?!

I flashed your patch only WITHOUT the RMM patch and the /data partition become UNMOUNTABLE after a system reboot!

so basically the patch is not working at all, and seem to be working on logs because the /data partition was freshly wiped and will become unmountable after first system reboot (this is when the re ecnryption happens).
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Seems like Oreo has changed something that is still forcing encryption.

Can you post the boot.img straight after flashing the patch and after the first reboot when data becomes unmountable?

You can use the twrp backup function for this or adb.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
No I cant because I cant flash TWRP recovery for 7 days, as I did NOT flash the RMM patch in the last experiment so I am locked now till the next Wednesday.

and I do not know if using adb is possible at this condition (I dont know how to use it at all anyway :p)
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
I think its worth mentioning that I also tried the original no-verity-opt-encrypt-6.0.zip from this link :

https://build.nethunter.com/android-tools/no-verity-opt-encrypt/

and I got the same results (this was yesterday before I got locked)

and this morning I was doing some research and found that this issue is common on Galaxy S9 (Oreo) as you can conclude from this thread:

https://xdaforums.com/galaxy-s9/development/twrp-samsung-s9-t3763548

They had to make a custom boot.img to disable the force-encryption.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
That patch doesn't work on most Samsung devices anyway, the reason I had to modify it to work on Samsung devices.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
The boot.img I uploaded yesterday was from the AP firmware file.

Is this the one you needed or the one from BL firmware file?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
I need the actual boot images from the device so I can check if the patch is doing its job after patching and after a reboot.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
after flashing the patch:

before reboot log

after reboot (data unmountable) from /cache/recovery/last_log :

after reboot log

Edit: oh I am sorry, I am supposed to post the boot.img before and after!

not the logs!, I forgot what I should do xD

It has been a while
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
Boot.img before reboot

Boot.img after reboot
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Asgabat:
Oreo

Guys I installed Oreo and I can't root my phone, old twrp can't be installed over Odin. can anyone help me to root it?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
https://xdaforums.com/samsung-a-ser...ot-install-twrp-samsung-t3747535/post75514974

https://xdaforums.com/android/general/guides-android-8-0-oreo-mods-thread-t3772017/post76397697
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Νικολας:
[No message]
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ebi02:
Hi.

Please close this post.

No updated post !!!!:(
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
I don't see that an update is needed since this TWRP works really good, at least for me. Do you need an update?

Thread should stay open for discussion ;)
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] folusmile:
Can I use magisk on this device
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ebi02:
No I used twrp 3.2.1 created by matt.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
A little question:

I've TWRP'ed my device according to this thread. Afterwards, I've installed a custom ROM. Now, whenever I boot into Recovery, Samsung's splash screen is normal, BUT!: if I boot into System, I get the red message on top left of splash screen: "kernel is not seandroid enforcing".

I know this is not an issue, since we're supposed to get that message when the device detects a non-stock ROM. However, I'm curious why there is no such message if I boot to Recovery?

Someone knows? Thank you.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Are you sure you're not getting that back to front?

You would get it booting to recovery not system.

Booting to system would say 'kernel is not seandroid enforcing".
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
That's correct. But anyways, I get no message when booting to custom recovery. Only to custom ROM. How so? Just curious.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Can you take a screenshot of your device booting to system with this message?

It doesn't make sense. :confused:
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] kaizokan:
[MENTION=4899305]ashyx[/MENTION] did you manage to look at the boot.img files that [MENTION=5752348]AK2H[/MENTION] posted for the disable forced-encryption patching on Oreo?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
I deleted all files from my drive since they were ignored for over 2 months
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
My bad I forgot to come back to this. I can fix it but give me time as it's not an easy fix.

I need the boot.img from the latest Oreo firmware.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] natsousa:
This is from the latest Oreo for A320Y

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lgQIpPk1DZfN2HntOgqyx0LHHEvKfzdp/view?usp=sharing
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] folusmile:
Anyone with boot. Img of A320f 2017 nougat should drop it here pls
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Hello all.

Suppose my phone has stock Nougat and this TWRP.

Suppose now I want to update to stock Oreo.

Since the phone already has a working bootloader, a working modem and a working recovery with which I'm happy, and since this TWRP can flash .img files, can I simply extract system.img and flash it with TWRP? Would that work? Should I need to flash some other .img files from stock?

Or is this totally wrong?

My idea is to avoid the Odin thing altogether (flash stock, reflash twrp, etc), if possible, while at the same time preserving my data and skipping the risk of getting RMM locked if something goes wrong the Odin way before I can apply the RMM-bypass patch.

Thank you in advance.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
I really don't know if this would work, but it doesn't sound totally wrong, but it could be...

All I know is that lz4 files are compressed too. To uncompress I used (with PC) 7zip with modern 7zip extension. Then the img file can be flashed with TWRP.

Edit. There is more info about flashing img files in OP first page.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Hi again, [MENTION=7726355]Pat750[/MENTION]! :)

Yes. I've read that info, but I need to know a couple more things, like for instance: what's the meta-data folder for?, do I need it? I can't do anything in TRWP with it, so if it's necessary, then that's the end.

True, I've realized that lz4 files are compressed, but easy to decompress as you point out.

Generally, the idea makes sense to me. The main question here is: can the Oreo system boot off a Nougat bootloader? I.e., does Oreo feature a "bootloader checker" ready to abort the boot process? Likely so. At least, were I the engineer, I'd do it that way.

Anyhow I guess I'll just try. Not much to lose: at worst, I can always enter recovery and flash my nandroid backup.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] potyqa:
I'm happy to tell you that Nougat and Oreo use the same bootloader! And by the way I don't think there's a checker because I've managed to boot stock Marshmallow with the Nougat/Oreo bootloader?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Thank you! But that puzzles me: if Nougat and Oreo share bootloaders, then, where has Samsung installed the RMM/FRM lock thingie? Is that in the system itself? In such case, after System I should definitely flash the RMM-bypass, right?
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
Always good to flash that RMM zip.

Read more here, follow the links and thank the guys

https://xdaforums.com/samsung-a-series-2017/how-to/guide-root-install-twrp-samsung-t3747535

In short I would say RMM apk is in AP and gets triggered by BL...in certain cases...better read the guide.

I used Nougat BL and CP with that Oreo Minimal Stock ROM and haven't updated to Oreo stuff with odin jet.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
I highly doubt that the bootloaders are the same.

Usually later bootloaders are backwards compatible with the previous OS.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
A bootloader checker?

It is the bootloader itself that is the 'checker' not the other way around.

The bootloader is the the part of the firmware that has 'master control'

It initializes the hardware, decides whether it will allow the kernel to boot and controls the low level security of the device.

Basically if the bootloader isn't happy the device isn't going to boot.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Sure, I know the guide. According to it: "This lock is in bootloader, but the trigger to it is inside the system". So, hard to tell how does it really work. I'll find pretty soon.

Master control? Hmm... There are many ways a system init can also abort boot.

But perhaps the correct answer is what you guess: that Nougat and Oreo bootloaders aren't identical. To begin with, one of the three binaries in it has different sizes in both BL's.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Guess? :confused:

Do you even know what a bootloader is?

Seems not from your reply.

What has the system init got to do with bootloader execution?

It is the bootloader that is the first part of device execution and decides if the kernel is allowed to boot.

One of the three Binaries in what?

The bootloader IS a binary.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Well, just in case someone wants to know: I've flashed Oreo's boot.img and system.img, leaving intact Nougat boot partition, and apparently everything works without a flaw.

Bootloader execution? :confused: Do you even know how an OS boots up? Repeat with me: there are many ways a system init can abort boot.

Want to know about the three binaries? Untar A320's BL package and you'll see.

Take it easy.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Do I know how an Android OS boots up?

I certainly do, do YOU. :eek:

I don't need to untar the BL package, I know exactly what it contains. I've probably dissected more firmware than you have posts on this forum.

You keep referring to system init aborting boot which has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm referring to.

If you don't know what bootloader execution is then you don't know what a bootloader is or what it does.

Maybe this will help you?

https://source.android.com/devices/bootloader/

https://elinux.org/Android_Booting
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Then you should know it contains the three binaries you were just asking about.

...which evidences how experience doesn't necessarily imply any skills for producing useful comments.

:laugh: That was the best. How about this?: You keep referring to bootloader execution which has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm referring to. A little reminder: https://xdaforums.com/showpost.php?p=77118058&postcount=276

Anyway, enough. If you want to keep arguing pm me, boy.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Again you're misquoting.

My initial reply was in response to this post:

To which I merely posted info responding to the question you posed, which you seem unwilling to accept.

Why ask questions if you're unwilling to accept answers? :rolleyes:

There in no argument going on here, not from my side anyway. Just info and facts of which you don't seem to want accept.

If you don't like responses from the author of a thread then post your questions in any other thread not mine, as you've derailed this one enough.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Finally he gave away himself. 100% ashyx :cool:
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
By the way, [MENTION=5752348]AK2H[/MENTION] did you finally manage to disable encryption in stock Oreo? When I last tried updating to 8.0 I run into the same issue as you.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] AK2H:
No, I rolled back to Nougat after desperately looking for a solution for over 2 weeks.

Your only hope would be [MENTION=4470081]topjohnwu[/MENTION] fixing the problem and including it in next magisk release.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] zogoibi:
Thanks! I also gave up stock Oreo for the same reason. No big drama, though: 8.0 is a boring update. :)

[EDIT]: As user Patolio posts in his thread, for disabling force-encription in stock Oreo it's enough to flash SuperSU v2.82-SR5. Ashyx script is for Nougat. No Magisk with SuperSU, though.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
Hi [MENTION=4899305]ashyx[/MENTION] I don't want to bother you and maybe you already know about this qouta support thing TKKG1994 wrote here

https://xdaforums.com/s7-edge/development/recovery-official-twrp-hero2lte-3-0-0-0-t3334084/page223

Maybe that's why our TWRP can't mount data on Oreo Stock ROMs with Magisk?

My knowledge is too limited to understand this.

Would be so cool if you or [MENTION=7698739]McFy[/MENTION] could take a look at this (don't know how much you guys work together though).

Please ignore this post if it is useless.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] McFy:
Hello, I yet tought about adding it due to force encrypt, It's an oreo flag for fstab, I planned to add it for my twrp build because as I fixed encryption in lineage I took a look around twrp as well, but I have no Idea about stock oreo, I never flashed it .. but problem could be solved by this, wait next twrp offiical build.

Sorry to make ads about mine version, it's not the aim :) , and no, ashyx sources are not released so mine trees are totally different,

Regards
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
Cool thing man, I will wait patiantly... :good:
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
I've just modified this boot image (temp link). Removed dm-verity, quota and forced encryption.

Install the kernel then FORMAT DATA. Let me know the outcome.

https://expirebox.com/files/d7a14c99eadf3b9f43f7316b41b1fc76.tar
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] McFy:
Interesting, isn't the fix in the use of quota ? No idea about touchwiz so I dont wan't to move too much into an area that is not mine :), reading google oreo change and 3.18 kernel change's just made me react.., another question by disabling dm-verity you mean using aosp reference instead of Samsung dm-verity or only disable it on defconfig, aswell for force encrypt, are you talking about the flag on fstab ? btw is there a way to see you uploading your source to understand a bit more :confused:
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
Thanks mate, will try this weekend, if there's time.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Link is only available for 2 days so download ASAP.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] NiEb:
I'll try :)

edit 1: it works

[MENTION=4899305]ashyx[/MENTION],

thank you ! Magisk works, data is available.

edit 2:

SecurityLog Agent -> colour orange- > Device is not authorized :( please restart
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] ashyx:
Just disable Knox and the securitylogagent.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] Pat750:
Hey thanks for testing.

But I don't understand edit 2, is orange your carrier? Or is the message in orange colour?

Maybe that message can be ignored because it is normal when you flash custom stuff on the phone that it says not authorised? I remember having that message with custom ROMs and it may affect banking apps or pokemon. But I don't use those.

Does the ROM function normally?

Sent from my cigarette break.

I see you edited edit 2, so do what ashyx says.
[Samsung Galaxy A3, A5, A7 (2017) ROMs, Kernels, Re] NiEb:
yes, securitylogagent is disabeld (Titanium)

warnung is deleted :)

ROM function normally,

but magisk saftey net status -> the answer is invalid

edit 1: restore older data backup - > works

edit 2: Warnung in Device Maintenance --> Device security = Device not authorised

(knox and security logagent are frozen with Titanium)