yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Mogul, XV6800 General] friedricebob:
You're right. I'm so e-embarrassed, I don't know if I'll be able to show my e-face around here again. Let me be the first to apologize to you, watson, for only reading the last 6 pages of an eleven page thread before engaging in a conversation with someone in the thread. I mean, the information I overlooked is on the FIRST PAGE! How could I be so STUPID! Man, I wish my mommy loved me more.

As I stated before, I'm not a titan/mogul owner, and have nothing to gain if this upgrade works out or not. I was simply adding my thoughts, which I felt may be useful to some.

I also would like to thank you, watson, for helping me clear up my error. Your posts always seem to be so on point and helpful, and I hope I can do the same with my newfound diligence. And I have you to thank for that as well.

_________________________________

Good luck with your moguls kids.

edit:

looking back at this PDF the Mogul's ROM/RAM chip is listed near the bottom of page 25a (KAG001002M-DGGY). It is listed to be 1.8v, using (L) large block ROM and (D) DDR SDRAM in the multi-chip package. the newest product PDF from samsung(dated august 2007) a similar chart appears on the top of page 21. you can see that the KAG001002M-DGGY's exact features are found now in the KAG001002A-DJJY chip... which should be a direct replacement. however, I do not see anything with 2Gb flash and 1Gb RAM that uses the (L) Large block ROM and (D) DDR SDRAM as the original mogul chip. food for thought.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
Brilliant pickup(edit: This seemed too sarcastic). I didn't notice that before, hrm. According to this link large-block and small-block flash memory do differ. What we really need to continue this effort is to look at the inside of a Sprint Touch and determine which chip it has. I think, from looking at this new file, that the chip is KAL009001M-D1YY which means it is a bit different. I hope someone can grab this and let us know what chip the Touch has so we can continue this effort.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] vaxick:
Well I shall say thanks for your great help in getting our poor phones to turn into the phone they always wanted to be. :D
[Mogul, XV6800 General] saumaun:
Sounds like we're getting closer!! Keep the great research coming!
[Mogul, XV6800 General] willpower102:
I think we started off with too many untrained eyes looking at those fcc pics. The ram is easily recognizable by the big fat samsung chips right in the middle of each board. Yeah, yeah, I know there are exceptions, but not often.

As for obtaining the chips, well yeah samsung wants you to buy 1k of them. But if I'm not mistaken I think component sites like mouser have that part taken care of. If anything we can just keep a lookout for a good board, cracked screen phone on ebay. (usually they sell for much less than dead board, good screen)

If I can get my hands on a broken mogul and touch for cheap I'll try this myself. The only thing is I have no idea how to pull the bga off. The machines often use suction and i'd rather not redo the solder balls on 100 bga points.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
We still don't have a definite idea of what the chip is on the Touch. The only Touch mobo pics I've seen are blurry. If we can narrow down what part it is, I've got no problem trying it. I even know a place locally where they do FBGA soldering who might do it for me at a nominal fee. I need to know which chip we're looking at though, first.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] TheCodeBenders:
The touch is supposedly coming to verizon and given that I'll probably pick one up. Warrenties aren't a big deal to me so... I'll see what I can do. I've got a Sony Alpha so the pics should be good enough ;-)
[Mogul, XV6800 General] defaultdotxbe:
well if you have it in your hands you can probably just tell us the part number :P
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
Its going to require more than just changing out the chip most likely. The reason that the ram was not immediatly recognized was not due so much to untrained eyes,but that many websites listed the chip as a flash rom,which is sort of correct. Since the rom contains both the flash rom,AND the ram,it makes it more difficult.

If the touch boot loader will come up when programmed into a mogul,it may be easy. Solder in the chip from a touch and your good to go with a rom flash. If not,or if your going to use a blank chip,its going to have to be programmed.Your choices are a JTAG port,if the mogul has one accessible,or programming the chip prior to installation. My mogul actually has a bad usb port on it so Im going ot have to take it in for replacement soon. Perhaps I will see if I can flash a touch boot loader to it before I take it in. It will probably brick it,but I could just play dumb. "I just died,I don't know what happened."

This of course also brings up ANOTHER question,lets just assume for a moment that we can get the chip,get it programmed and get it installed,and that it comes up (either as is,or perhaps with a patch to enable it) with the full amount of ram. The next question is,how big of a chip can we get and how big of a chip can it take? Beyond that,the question comes to mind,can you add more flash too. Of course these things are pure speculation at this point considering that no one has even upgraded the ram successfully. (or otherwise)

On another note,there is a company that makes a 30mmx30mmx3cm thick blower that runs off 2-5v dc. Im trying to get my hands on one. My concept is to get the fat back for the high capacity batteries or make a modified regular back,then affix the blower and a heatsink to the back of a stock battery.

I will probobally strip the alluminum case off the battery and replace it with a copper jacket,fit tightly around the battery to both help move heat out of the battery and hopefully provide a low resistance path for heat to flow from the phone around the battery. The blower will then be wired with a temperature switch to the battery,and once for all solve those overheating problems when using the internet with wmwifirouter on charger.

Since the fan will only operate when the phone overheats,which only happens on the charger,it should not affect battery life. I can live with an extra 3 or 4cm thickness,and if I cant,I can always swap in the normal battery,or even use the fat battery on the go.Superfat back,with blower and high cap battery... hmmmm) Its not the greatest solution,but certainly should help. In addition it should also help if we get an overclocking utility to keep the phone cool,but in that case,it might (or might not) switch on when on battery and shorten battery life.

Ill post details if and when I get it to work. If anyone knows of any other manufacturers of fans less than 5mm thick,I would love to hear about it.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
This is true. First we need to know which chip we're dealing with, though:)

I think the key here will be either getting the Touch bootloader running on the Mogul, or copying the Mogul bootloader to the Touch's Flash/RAM chip. This is probably an easier solution, if it works. Again, we're just speculating at this point. If you could report back on whether the Touch bootloader works on the Mogul, that'd be excellent!

:) These are future questions - one at a time. Let's get it running first. I'm pretty sure that if we don't have the right files on our Mogul to interface w/the chip, that the Touch's ROM will have the right information. That's one of the advantages of using the Touch - same platform(MSM7500) and same Touch Flash/RAM chip. That should make it easier to get it running... which assuming that it is the same electrically. Heh.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] fusionpit:
You're going to need to reball the Touch chip if you pull it out of there, I don't think there's any way around that. Usually a blast of super heated air or some sort of IR device is used to pull off old FBGA stuff, if you just pull it off you're probably going to rip some leads off with it.

If we can indeed get the Samsung part number for the correct chip in the Touch, I could talk to my guy at Samsung or one of our build houses (Avant, Escort, Pan Ming, Walton-Chaintech) to see if they have any, and get our rework guys to try a swap out on my phone.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] willpower102:
LOL, I wasn't planning on ripping it off. I usually use an oven or a heatgun I have mounted up like a station with 2 digi probes. (lots of xbox 360 work)

I've pulled off a northbridge before and didn't have to reball more than a few because there was so much room for error. All the balls just did and icicle effect. Then I flipped the chip over and heated it again and all the balls reformed. Same with the board side. I've just never had any luck doing stuff like those tiny bga video ram by hand.

All that aside... If ponicg can hook us up then non of that matters and I agree that we need to focus on finding more info about that chip.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] saumaun:
Has anyone found out how to get a chip? I'm trying to find damaged ones on ebay
[Mogul, XV6800 General] saumaun:
Oh and by damaged ones i mean Titans/Moguls... sorry
[Mogul, XV6800 General] lordrainkm:
I hate to let everyone down, but this isn't going to happen. Based on the samsung product selection guide, you'd need to replace the KAG001002A in the titan with the KAL009001M or K5E2G1GACM chips in order to maintain the same amount of flash and move up in DRAM, which are both in the same 137 pin FBGA package. Neither use Lareg Block NAND, or DDR DRAM like the KAG001002A. The only way this would be possible, would be if the motherboard is already wired to handle whatever pin changes exist between those chips (or if you were to solder wires in to replace them) AND if someone were ready, able, and willing to re-write the DRAM and FLASH controller firmware that is probably in the Xilinx CPLD device sitting next to the samsung chip. So if someone has the source code for that particular chip, let's get cracking. In the far more likely event that no one here works on the HTC development team, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a RAM upgrade. The only other way to do it is to analyze the way the titan works so thoroughly that you can re-write that firmware from scratch. It's an enormous undertaking though.

Even if it did work, going from DDR to SDR should make RAM access slower which could cause dozens of other issues that we're not even thinking about.

Really the only way this is going to be realistic is if we had someone at HTC giving us information that they haven't otherwise made available.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
Great observation... except you're forgetting one thing. The Touch is very similar to our Titan. I'd venture a guess(and without good quality Touch photos, it is just that, a guess) that there is already a Firmware setup for this in the Touch. Does the touch have the same CPLD chip? We won't know until we see the Touch motherboard. I'm not counting this one out yet, but who knows.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] lordrainkm:
It's very unlikely that the touch cpld would work as a drop-in replacement for the titan, but it is possible. Even so, it'd be unwieldy to have to purchase a touch and destroy it for every titan you want to upgrade.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] defaultdotxbe:
well if the touch cpld has firmware that is compatible with the rest of the titans hardware you could just extract the firwmare and flash it on the titan, assuming the chip is writable

depending on how similar the boards are its even possible they might use the same cpld firmware to reduce costs
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ponicg:
Yep - it seems we're just speculating until one of us gets our hands on the Touch to disassemble to try this...
[Mogul, XV6800 General] cj10488:
I have just seen this thread and my touch should be here within a Few days... When I get It I will look at getting it apart and getting the PN off the ram chip...

I am very Knowledgable in this area so I will let ya all know... If I can find a Viable replacement I might even take it over to one of our board Mfgs and see if they cant to a test swap for me as well... After seeing their work I dont know if I will go that route or have a friend that Hand places Smaller BGAs like this all day for a living...

In all reality I dont think its possible.. However there are multiple Memory vendors out there so its possible the same replacement is available from another company...

Granted if the chip specs are the same it should work flawlessly unless like others have stated the memory drivers are hard coded into the Rom...

Hopefully If someone doesnt beat me to it and work Isnt that Bad I can Disassemble it at work and Use the Ersa Scope for some nice High Res pics.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
I appreciate your enthusiasm,but I would not want you to void the warranty on your brand new phone and risk damaging it. If you still want to,I would love to see high resolution pictures of the insides to help our cause,but certainly I would not ask anyone to do this. I'm content with waiting for information from another source.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] cj10488:
Well So much for that one... I got my phone late last night and planned on starting this beginning of next week however I was notified that My role has been changed at work today starting Monday and I know I will not be able to get to this tomorrow before I have to shift gears back into another task.

Its not a permanent thing.. Maybe I can walk it over to the sprint repair center and have them disassemble it for me then I can take it back over for some High Res pics... I am kinda curious to see the Ball Collapse pattern on the BGAs anyways... With as many as I have seen wonder how perfect these are of if they are flawed like most (Tear drop)

If someone else can do this before but If I have to Disassemble it I can say unless I find time tomorrow then I am not going to be able to do it for a few months until I shift back from production to prototypes.

James
[Mogul, XV6800 General] JoeBobOneHalf:
This may be shady, but if someone had the insurance on their phone, and if they broke their phone, and reported it missing rather than broken, then we could have a touch to dissect.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Lowenski:
I hope this can Help!

I have post about it before with no one interested in my post and no one to help me yes it is very possible to you to be able to do it here is a Photo of the inside of the phone... with the type of ram and another photo of the samsumg ram of 1GB that i think are very close family of ram that you may use for it the type of ram I think are called Flash Mobile RAM maybe that can help you if it is any help let me know

PS Note that there is another Infineon RAM and Next to it 2 more empty spaces that chip looks very similar o an ordinary PC RAM module This is an assumption but when you look at the specs inside windows mobile you get 2 separate info about ram the ROM ram and the ram, if I'm right the samsumg chip it is the ROM RAM and the Infineon RAM is the normal RAM
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
The cpld can be reprogrammed,cant it? In fact,its version is given in the bootloader.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
That looks promising. I would suggest starting by getting the data sheets for the infineon ram thats in the phone. Check the configuration of the power pins. What you are looking for is whether the power pins,which is something you can measure (with a suitable high impedance meter) match. If so then its reasonable to assume that those other two pads are in fact what you suspect they are. You might also look to see if any connections are visible that might give you clues,such as the way the pins are connected. (most of this will be internal,so not much information will be visible)

If these pads really are for ram chips,my first instinct is to just use more of the same kind thats already in it.

The samsung chip may well be what you suspect it is. In this thread,there are links to the samsung product catalogs for those type of devices. You may find more info about that there,but its probably not relevant to upgrading your phone.

You should check some of the commercial sites that offer upgrades. If its as easy as adding a couple of new chips,then they may well offer this service. Many phones are in this category. I would check,but you did not tell us what kind of phone you have.

Unfortunatly ,while your phone looks promising,ours is more difficult.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] stevesrjr:
okay earlier in this thread i had the idea of using the transflash card for extra memory but everyone said itd be too slow... but what if we reprogramed the allocation of program memory to the ram side wout that work? cause id rather have the ram and not as much program memory....
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Lowenski:
Ok I have a PPC 6800 (Sprint Mogul) in my personal case I think if people want speed the need to look for the ram and not for the samsumg rom... becuse windows maybe will recognize the ram... but upgrading the DDR Flash RAM / ROM ummmm I think that is a difficult task... but any ways the phone looks to have expiation spaces available for ram modules next to the infinium ones... I'm planing on waiting to have 1 year of contract to upgrade my phone so I can Have the PPC 6800 only for experimenting...
[Mogul, XV6800 General] neilson:
So it does appear that there are 2 empty spots in our Moguls that could concievibly fit the Infineon RAM already in the phone(which are 32 MB a piece). Seems to me that we need to figure out if someone can buy some more of that RAM or take the RAM from a Blacklisted Mogul and see if they can be put into the empty slots and be recognized?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Lowenski:
Good news to every one I found a company that works upgrading the ram for us

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pdacenter.ru%2Fservis%2Fupgraderam%2F&langpair=ru%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

PS and the exact model of ram used by HTC is: Infineon HYB25L512160AC-7.5
[Mogul, XV6800 General] neilson:
Now we're getting somewhere. If Russians can do it, surely someone in North America, Western Europe or the Far East can too.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] cj10488:
Let me see If I can get a few Samples of the Ram thru my work.. Heck we might even have it laying around... I also could get someone to place the BGAs for me within my phone... I wil check the ram we have at work and are getting ready to toss out... Granted they would have to be reballed but no biggy cant complain at the price...

Anyways I will report back possibly tomorrow If I get time.. I have to work overtime so why not Experiment LOL..

James
[Mogul, XV6800 General] wsparvis:
I see no mention of "titan", "mogul", or "6800" on that page. What are you seeing that I don't see?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Tregrad:
Ive been reading this thread for a while and you guys are persistant like a big dog, LOVE IT!! keep up the good work, if this is going to work it will be awesome.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
That picture was not of our moguls,it was of some other kind of phone,that someone was trying to upgrade. I gather he didn't get any response elsewhere and thought people here might have some useful info.

As for the ram chip in our mogul. Thats old news,it was in fact found. The ram chip is contained in the same "package" that the rom is in. The samsung chip is what is called a multichip package. (MCP,in fact my phone digitized me and made me race little motorcycles,but thats another story. ;-) )The ram and rom "chips" are contained in that one device,so to upgrade one you must upgrade both. (and no,there is absultely no way to upgrade one without the other becuase the two dies are assembled and sealed together in the factory) If you look back through the thread,you will see posts by myself and others linking to the samsung product catalog.

Some people say there is no equivalent chip with more memory,but that in fact may not be true. It may be that it is to new to show up in the catalog or it may be something that is not a standard part. If you carefully read the catalog,it states that the parts listed are the most common combinations,but they can in fact do custom ones.(presumably with large orders and long lead times) This is why we need to see a high res picture of a touch.

I looked at the kaiser and it appears that it uses the chip listed in the catalog that some people had proposed for the mogul. It looks like this one wont work however because its not DDR memory. Then again,if the memory controller is the cpld, that might be something we can work around. There are lots of ifs,but first,we need to see the touch.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
No,the ram used in our moguls is a samsung chip. It has been identified long ago. That infineon chip, http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...f+HYB25L512160AC-7.5&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

does not appear to even be DDR. Furthermore,its just ram. (it is coincidentally a MCP,containing two ram chips instead of ram and flash) Im not sure what leads you to beleive this has anything to do with the mogul.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
Looking back at it,im not so sure anymore. I looked up some information on how the virtual memory in windows mobile works. It seems that whether a program is kept in memory depends on what kind of memory it is stored on. Programs that can be reloaded from flash will be unloaded if needed. Data structures that programs keep,will not be becuase there is no way to restore them.

It might well be possible to swap some of these things out to the transflash card. In fact,vista does something similar with readyboost. Ive actually used my phones card as the readyboost device without problems. What might be a problem is the speed of the card reader in the phone. Some people say the reader is very slow. I dont know if this is true or not,but as a general rule,the card itself is faster than a hard disk,so its not at all unreasonable. One problem of course would be wearing out the flash. Readyboost uses a special algorithm to spread the writes across the drive and reduce the amount of writes. If you just put the swap on flash,it would wear out rather fast.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] mastachillz:
http://msmobiles.com/news.php/6886.html

if you read that now we know one of two things.

1 the 7500 chipset uses memory chips that are the 32 megabytes and maybe we can add more.

2 their are just alot of other chips that samsung has out their.

most importantly tho is that it has wifi so it may be closer to titan than touch is.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
How do you figure the 32meg number? If its from the 96,that most likely means they are using a MCP with a 3 die configuration,1 256meg flash,and a 64 and 32meg ram. This new phones memory configuration just seems really odd though. Perhaps its a mistake? In any event it will be interesting to see more details.

The touch uses the same 7500 chip the mogul uses. Thats why we expect to learn something useful by seeing the internals of one,however you are correct that this new phone might offer us clues as well.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] klmsu19:
yeh the verizon xv6800 originally said 96mb ram too but turned out to be 64 so.....

it does look like from the photos that there are empty slots so that may be promising, but by the time thats figured out we'll all be on to newer models since the phone has already been out almsot a year now.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] mastachillz:
i said that 32 meg chips may be possible because of the post about the empty slots and this would further point in that direction
[Mogul, XV6800 General] defaultdotxbe:
even another 32 megs would be awesome, hell, another 16 megs would be plenty as far as im concerned

is there any way to allocate some rom memory for a paging file or something? id gladly give up some of that for a bit more ram, even if access is slower