yashsingh1/xdaforums huggingface dataset:
[Mogul, XV6800 General] aboutthemind:
ram upgrade

No I'm just going to throw this out there but the last physical replacement ram upgrade i have ever seen is the wallaby, which i have.

But from my experience its always been an upgrade or a driver that cut the full potential of the ram loose. I believe with out question that the titan which i posses has the capability to be 128 hence the other phones similar to it.

How ever being that the battery status has caused me many sleepless nights on the mogul due to its make up. So my hands on theory for this particular phone is only speculation.

i have used ppc techs tsk driver on numerous phones including the sph-i700 for samsung and it was a night and day difference

I will say this that from all the the boards i have seen and all the new products there is a logical reason why they keep these phones toned down i still hit almost every one of my phones with the moloski tweak just start my mods. I would have to say that the upgeade lies with in simply because htc never maxes out any of the phones
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
Would/is it be possible to somehow link memory from your SD card to your RAM? Or is ROM and RAM defined under specific hardware profiles? If a hack or mod could be made to utilize 64mb of ram for program usage using your SD card...

all would be well. Just a thought. Input?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] dharvey4651:
Boy did I set the ball in motion... I really hope this is possible. If its a driver issue then that would be awesome but even a Solder-in ram card would be better than nothing.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] mastachillz:
swapfile

i would def consider the possibility of having a swapfile which is what you are talking about. The problem would lie in the latency with the sd card or rom i would think a 66x card or faster would work somewhat but i am not sure if wm6 already does with rom. That could be why it slows to a hault when memory is low but the idea is not new and should be something that could be done on software level to create virtual ram like i said though physical ram would be best. For an idea on the performance of sd card google readyboost as that is what microsoft calls it for vista.

p.s. You are def on to something because if they already do utilize virtual mem then it could be optimized or moved on to a high speed sd card which i think would have better write speeds then rom.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pastert33:
Anymore info on this? This would be great!!
[Mogul, XV6800 General] acidfire52:
I was told by PPCTechs that it is not possible. That is all they said.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] bigray327:
Same here, but all that really means is that they're not

willing

to do it. I bet some enterprising soul that's willing to risk his 6800 could solder in the same RAM chip the Touch uses and it would work.

I'm willing to donate $20 or so to any serious R&D endeavor.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] neilson:
This thread is on life support. When's someone gonna finally pony up and buy a blacklisted Sprint Touch/Alltel 6900, open it up and compare that with a Mogul/6800?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] ericthegreat:
I get a kick out of the posters that say the Titan is a "flawed phone". Those users must not have had the 6700/Apache. The Titan works so much better than my Apache ever did and feels much more solid as well.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pnyce777:
i have a touch

I have a touch with insurance I could claim it lost or stolen.... but its like 50 bucks to get a new one...otherwise I wouldent mind taking it apart perhaps in the near future I may be claiming insurance anyway cause I dropped it a few times..
[Mogul, XV6800 General] delawaresace:
someone just posted over on ppcgeeks touch forum that they have an extra touch that they r willing to donate for experimental use. i'll try to point him over here.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] dan-htc-touch:
I'm the one with the x-tra touch, maybee I'll see if my buddy will lend me his 10megapixel dslr and take some nice shots of the inside
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Hammerfest:
This is awsome...... the XDA dev's or whoever is spearheading this project should start a chip-in for this.....

Well i got annoyed and made one....

http://titanupgrade.chipin.com/titan-ram-upgrade

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TRUST ME OR EVEN DONATE, but in the off chance that anyone does, those who are knowledgable (and I have your usernames written down) please e-mail me and I will use anything in the fund to get the parts or phones needed to start/continue this project and have them sent to you....

If someone more trusted (AKA a senior member or others with ungodly amounts of time who has helped many nubs like me) in the community wants to make a Chip-In I will GLADLY take mine down and place any funds in the new Chip-In...
[Mogul, XV6800 General] dan-htc-touch:
are there any high res photos of the inside of the titan
[Mogul, XV6800 General] 954rr_fast:
ill take some of your phone if you would like:D
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Hammerfest:
Ill re-open my Titan tomorrow or Sunday and take the best res pics i can get... im not promising anything... but since I have removed the WiFi antanna and the WiFi external antanna plug (fing non-working WiFi bull ****) it wont be 100% accurate to origional :P

TaTa
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
Its not the titan we need pics of. The chip that needs to be replaced is already known and pictures with adequate resolution are already available. What is needed is information on what ram the touch uses. It is hoped that the touch uses a ram chip that will be usable as a replacement for the one in the mogul.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
That is true,but a hard disk is slower by far than dual channel ddr2-800 memory used in your pc,than the memory in your phone is compared to the flash in your phone. The way these things work is by paging the memory.

It turns out that memory references in a program tend to cluster. Its a little more complex in practice,but basically you keep pages in ram that you are using. When a program tries to access a page that is not in ram,an exception is generated,and the page you need is loaded into ram. Execution then continues in the newly loaded page. Our phones in fact are already doing this,but only for some files. According to the information I have read from MS,WM treats pages differently depending on what kind of data they contain. Pages that contain data that is contained in files in internal rom are in fact paged out. For instance,a data file that is loaded from internal rom into ram,or a program can be unloaded but a page that contains an array of data that is created at run time is not. This is because if that page were unload a page that was not backed by a file, there would be no way to reload the page if it was later needed.

If these pages could be saved on the flash card,they could then be released and reloaded later if needed. It would of course slow things down,just like paging on your computer does. It turns out however that its not nearly as bad as you would think. You execute thousands or tens of thousands or more instructions,before generating a page miss. Then you have to pay the price and load the page you need. Then you execute thousands more instructions. It turns out that virtual memory systems are nearly as fast as real memory in practice,so long as you don't overdo it. (you cant run a pc on 64k with a gig of virtual memory and expect it to work right)

Overall,it it not so much a matter that the flash is much slower than ram,its a question of how many page misses you will generate.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] defaultdotxbe:
the problem with paging memory is that support for it needs to be integrated into the OS, and windows mobile has no support for it
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
Actually,that is not true. I was suprised to learn that windows mobile DOES in fact have paging. Unlike windows NT/XP/Vista however,it will only page things that are "file backed". There is a microsoft article that I linked in my previous thread on the subject.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Tpimp420:
I've got it!

Hey everyone,

I'm currently using a XV6800 flashed/unlocked phone, thanks to the help of PPCGeeks and the PPcKitchen, along with all the developers working with that project. (Thanks everyone Love this **it!) Anyways, I have been wanting to upgrade my xv6800 for a long time and I've been Googl'ing around and this is the best thread going on this. Except it seems that there is one main thing holding this all up. The phones? Can you tell me that within this community there isn't someone who has an HTC Touch to open up? Also I am getting mixed information on whether the ppc 6800 (xv6800/mogul/p4000) has two ram beds or not? If it does, We could just install a second one and build a driver(program) that will recognize the second chip then with the driver it would always be recognized by WM6. Then it could be added to a kitchen and pre-installed with the OS apps. I just ordered a working sprint mogul off ebay. I plan to try a couple things with it. Like connecting it to verizon, building it into an "XP" version of the HTC Shift (oh and it would have the PHONE Radio as well) , and if nothing else try this project as well. If the PPc-6800 has only one ram bed then we could try to get one from the touch, in that case the driver is already built into the touch ROM. But we still don't know if the ram is compatible with the 6800 mother board. Is anyone else enthusiastic about this as I am? I don't see the tytan 2 getting released on CDMA networks soon, and I NEED a keyboard AND 128 mb ram. This isn't fair. Why doesn't HTC help with this. These devices need to be more like computers in the ability to upgrade them. You shouldn't have to buy a new device every time you want the newest technology. Anyone else want to help me out with some answer on this stuff before I open my mogul up? It would be greatly appreciated. Specifically on the ACCURATE information involving the RAM Beds (how many?). Also I'm a programmer (C++) I would be will to start developing a driver, if anyone had some info or wanted to help, that would be appreciated too. thanks, Happy modding everyone....:cool:
[Mogul, XV6800 General] chococrazy:
Guys guys guys i found a $200 mogul on ebay link http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-NEW-Sprin...oryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

IT STILL HAS EVERYTHING AND CLEAN MSDN
[Mogul, XV6800 General] chococrazy:
AND THIS IS TEH SAME AS THE OTHER ONE JUST CHEAPER!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-NEW-Sprin...oryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Tpimp420:
......

well I get mine on thursday and I'm probably gonna open it up this weekend. But IDK Grand Theft Auto IV comes out tonight. WOOT! So Idk what I'm gonna wanna do more. But I have plans for that little mogul.... :) hehehe its about to meet the XV68 and 67-hundred my other two buddies...... {Still Need More Ram} Oh and all that paging stuff can be found in the registry. Windows mobile uses FAT NTFS 32 format and there are settings within the registry to change the paging sizes to more. (EATS up your ram like crazy though) but I noticed immediate speed differences.

If it comes down to it I might buy a touch so I can open that up, considering no one will step up with one!!

Tis a shame.

TPIMP -OUT
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Tpimp420:
what we need is a touch! but nice find.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
More specifically,we need a high res picture of the internals of a touch. We need to see what ram chip it uses first. Then we need to get the specs on that chip and see if it is compatible with the mogul.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] chococrazy:
GUYS TOUCH FOR 180 USD!!! http://forum.soft32.com/windows/sale-Brand-HTC-TOUCH-180USD-ftopict376896.html

wOOT!!
[Mogul, XV6800 General] eazy2001x:
Did anyone ever make any new headway with this?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] DeMiNe0:
Ya, i put about 6gb of ram in mine. ^_^ I play unreal on it. ^_^
[Mogul, XV6800 General] eazy2001x:
lol.:eek::cool:
[Mogul, XV6800 General] IM0001:
ya

Don't be kidding about something like that. I play Quake 3 on my X50v all the time and it only has the stock 64mb (I plan to get the 128mb upgrade sometime in the future) Still its a bummer there is no upgrade for the titan but I think the Titans replacement should be good enough to be worthy of a upgrade for the ram as well as all its other benefits.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] madman34:
Probably already said but,,,,,

I think that one of the gurus of ROM creation could probably map a section of the flash slot memory area like a pagefile or RAM type config to make more memory for the function of RAM. I saw someone postulate this and get shot down by someone that said flash would wear out to fast and was not fast enough to do the job. Well the micro-sd cards are getting so cheap that to me I would be happy to change out those for the functionallity.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] unL33T:
I believe the issue with that solution was that it would wear down the internal flash too much and an SD card would be too slow.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Protonus:
There seemed to be a lot of mentions here of a possible upgrade using the RAM from the Touch - I'm sure there are pictures availible now of it's internals, has this been looked into further?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Tpimp420:
Touch Raphael

Sure tons of people have looked into it.... Its more complicated than its worth. With HTC releasing new phones almost every year its almost easier to just wait for the next device. TOUCH RAPHAEL (PRO) here i come. And in a CDMA Flavor and evrything. maybe someone will try to get the ram out of that... its 256mb...... lol maybe....
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
I would second that plus a little more... ;)
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Psionfenix:
buy me a touch and a mogul and i'll see what i can do.

That's the problem, of course, no one wants to blow a grand on 2 phones to possibly break both. Especially considering the delicacy of the task at hand, and the likelihood that you'll have to take a couple attempts at it. Sure, you'd make your money back if you got good at it, but...the initial startup is a bit pricey.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
Well do you think a general donation from Mogul users and then presenting it to someone(s) capable to perform the R & D would be a good idea of any kind? Hell, I would drop $20 into the pot and I wiould imagine that if it muliplied over and over, you would have a couple thousand to test with...
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
I dont really want to void my warranty at this point by opening mine,but that would be the start. (with all the incumbent risks as well) We need to see what kind of ram it has in it. It may be simply a matter of soldering in a larger chip,or it might not be possible at all.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] neilson:
So, we buy a blacklisted Mogul and use that to tinker. It won't work as a phone, but for what we want to do, it really won't need to.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
That sounds like a good idea. I some pictures of a 6700,just to get an idea of how HTC builds phones and the whole thing was covered by several sections of rf sheilding. Certainly its possible to get those off,but it adds to the complexity. If the 6800 is built like that, we certainly want to use a throwaway to start with.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] bigray327:
Disassembly instructions and pictures here. The RAM chip is clearly shown.

I'd like to see someone take a throwaway Touch, remove the RAM, and put it in a throwaway 6800. If any RAM chip out there would be compatible, it would be the Touch RAM.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] lordrainkm:
The chip they claim to be RAM is a Samsung KAG001002M 512Mbit NAND flash rom chip. The Xilinx chip sitting next to it is a CPLD. Neither are RAM chips.

There's really no need to take apart a touch here. Take apart the mogul, find the RAM chip(s), determine if there're other ones that will fit in the same place with more memory. The only way this is going to work as a drop-in is if it's a serial RAM chip and if the manufacturer makes a larger chip in the exact same pinout and package. Even then who knows if the memory controller in the device will address the extra memory?

Upgrading the mogul is certainly possible, but may require so much modification that it'll never happen.

The first step is for someone who has a mogul they're willing to disassemble (mine is going to remain in one piece for now) and identify the actual RAM chip(s), then we can look up the information on them and determine if there's a viable replacement.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
Lets just purchase a few broken Moguls and a couple functioning ones from Fleabay for nominal fees and have someone capable take them apart and experiement. If we start a fund, I will gladly donate. A 128mb RAM is all the PPC6800 is missing (in my opinion).

If the chips & software to expand the memory and enable the PPC to acknowledge it is obtained, then possibly a set price could be established and everyone could chose to send their device in for the upgrade.

Of course the issue of warranty comes to play and if your device is broken/stops functioning and you send it in, you lose your upgrade. :(
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Psionfenix:
I'll start keeping an eye on ebay, I'm bored and want more RAM, so this just might be a project for me. hah
[Mogul, XV6800 General] lordrainkm:
If someone gets a spare, open it up, and read off all the print on the chips. From there we can find out what we're dealing with.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
A gentleman over at PPCGeeks took some internal snapshots of a Mogul. Really good stuff too. If someone can identify the possibilities for RAM upgrading that could be accomplished...

http://forum.ppcgeeks.com/showthread.php?t=7991
[Mogul, XV6800 General] dharvey4651:
That is some really detailed stuff there. This project is looking like it might actually become reality.

I do have one more thought though. In order to do something like this at all, you're going to need the RAM chip. It might be a good idea to buy a blacklisted Touch or Tilt and see if the RAM card is even similar.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
We should probably post a bulletin looking for trashed or broken Moguls, PPC 6800's, etc that cannot be sent back for disecting purposes. We could call that phase one. With the mapping of the chips and other hardware, we could proceed from there.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] NexVision:
Just spoke with Llyod over at PPCTechs's he stated to me they have tried it with no go. Apparently older device's used 2 chips to equal up to the 64mb for the ram so they would swap one chip or both. However with the new boards they are using a single 64mb chip which means they need a cheap with more ram then 64mb which they state is not available.

From my conversation with him they are very willing to attempt things and have devices to test on so basically what we are looking for is a chip which is larger then 64mb and compatible with out main board.

After hearing that I think the best option might be looking into creating a swap file to utilize the ROM as RAM.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] Psionfenix:
We should do it anyway, can't really hurt. lol

It'd be nice to have a dynamic program to use the swap, using, say, 20% of the free rom or something. Who knows. I'll go talk to a few friends of mine that work at cell stores to see if i can get any broken phones to play with.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
If they can make a computer chip which can fit atop an ant's head, they can make a chip or "hack" that can make available 128mb of simple RAM for these PDA device's.

It's all about economic viability.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] lordrainkm:
There's no reason at all to take the RAM out of the touch. It's easy enough to find larger ram chips within the same family directly from the RAM manufacturer usually. Can't do anything without identifying the chips in the mogul though. I looked at all the pictures, I can't read the markings on most of the chips, the ones I can read aren't RAM.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] lordrainkm:
Looking again, it's easy to read the markings on all the close-ups, I can identify nearly everything, none of it is RAM. The only chips i haven't identified yet are too small to be RAM, most likely they're small logic gates, or amps or regulators or something.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
We wouldn't be making a chip. Usually there is a larger chip in the same family that has the same pinout. The question is,is that pin connected to the cpu and will the software recognize it. The software part can usually be fixed,but often,because they use bga chips now,if the pin isn't connected there is not alot that can be done. Then again,there might be,if you get clever,but thats putting the cart before the horse.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
Ok,lloking at the pics,the ram chip is a BGA chip. These CAN be replaced but it is certainly harder than with other kinds.

Looking at it,there is a chip with an x on it. That chip looks like its made by Xilinx. Acording to their website,this is not a memory chip as some suspect but instead a coolrunner II cpld chip. The samsung chip is clearly a memory chip of some sort,but it is not clear what kind. I tried samsungs website but could not find its series.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] xweaponx:
I use to mod Xbox's and so I know it is possible to solder in chips, flash bioses, etc ... as long as you have the knowledge and equipment to do so (software, logic probes, IC solder equipment, etc,)

We need to get the ball rolling on this. Hopefully, once momentum begins everything else will fall into place. Unless there are attributes that hinders the upgrade on a physical level pass economical means, we should move forward with a prototype upgrade to see what the possibities are.

Keeping in mind that the next generation of devices will have the upgrade in Rom/Ram (and also the programs to utilize it) and so living for today is almost futile because these issues will be addressed in latter devices. I am not trying to defeat the purpose before the means begins but there is a definite timeline before it is self-defeating and anticipating the next model in the line-up is your best bet. I find the Mogul/PPC6800 to be a great device but there is a reasonable life expectancy before the next device that will be equipped with the relative advancements in technology arrives.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
It looks like we have what we are looking for, http://xdaforums.com/showthread.php?t=322484

Someone here is selling parts from a mogul,including the main circuit board. That should be what is needed to try a ram upgrade. He wants 75 dollars.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] TumTum101:
I found a site that has the Samsung KAG001002M chips available for distribution. http://www.dataio.com/device/details.asp?Prog=FlashPAK&KcBeta=YES&offset=375&DID=56777&SUP_ID=899753&PMODEL=FLASHPAK&HW_ID=54248

If someone can find the model number of the Tilt or Touch RAM maybe this site would have the chips available for purchase. Just a thought.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] dharvey4651:
You might have seriously hit the jackpot here.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] neilson:
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
[Mogul, XV6800 General] dharvey4651:
Merry Christmas to all of you too!
[Mogul, XV6800 General] pflatlyne:
which is hte ram chip

That seems to be the problem. I dont see which one could be the ram chip. The chip with the x on it does not appear to be the one and the rest are marked with Qualcom markings. Perhaps the ram is bundled into one of the qualcom chips?
[Mogul, XV6800 General] dharvey4651:
We can only hope that that is not the case. Personally I got rid of my Mogul and will be sporting a new Touch in a week or so but I still think that this is a great project.
[Mogul, XV6800 General] binny1007:
don't know if this will help

I found this today, it is all the internal photos from the fcc. The numbers on the chips are all really clear. you can check it out here https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=738594&native_or_pdf=pdf